rudder discussions

[Scott Galloway]

I just acquired a 1965 outboard model Pearson Ariel. After spending a couple of weeks getting to know the boat, taking inventory, and doing some interior rehabilitation and work on the running rigging, I am preparing tackle the rudder and motor issues. I would greatly appreciate any advice from members of this forum or others who happen along. My e-mail address is scottg@solopublications.com

1. The rudder issue: I did not have the opportunity to haul the boat before I purchased it. Although highly desireable, this was just not possible. I did however hire a surveyor tp conduct an in water assessment. He will finish the survey when we haul. From the surveyor's (in water) assessment, it is likely that there are problems at the top and bottom of the rudder, so I assume that the rudder bearing (top) nd shoe (bottom)need work and or replacement. I have joined the Ariel Association, and purchased and read the operating and maintenance manual, so I am now somewhat familiar with the rudder design and parts.

Since I am aware of another boat at this same dock that recently had rudder shaft electrolysis problems, shaft electrolysis is also a possibility. I don't think that this boat has been hauled in some time, and I want to do all that is necessary in a single haul-out when I haul the boat later this month. That means ordering parts or having them made in advance if possible. Has anyone out there recently completed a rudder rehabiliation project on a Pearson Ariel? I am interested in knowing what to expect, where to order parts, or to whom I might go to to have them fabricated, and whether the actual condition of the rudder might be determined in advance of haul-out by a diver at least to some degree.

2. Motor issues: The outboard well on this boat has been enlarged to accomodate a 7.5 hp Honda that is likely near the end of it's useful life. The motor is not currently on the boat. I have lifting limitations due to a back injury. I am looking for two pieces of advice. I am sailing in Monterey Bay and in the open ocean. I have three questions.

a. What size motor is the minimum necessary to power this boat into and out of a harbor, and

b. What size is the minimum to power the boat into the wind on a flat day or into a swell on a windy day. From the recent post on this site it appears that a 6 hp 2 cycle motor might suffice in this regard.

3. I have read in the ops and maint manual of the Gauhauer lifting davit installation. Has anyone out there actually seen this lifting davit in action, or has anyone used similar (forespar or other)or dissimilar devices to lift the outboard from the well and from the well to dock?

Again I will be grateful for any responses I receive.

Regards,

Scott

[commanderpete]

1) Why are rudder problems suspected? Does it just feel a little sloppy? Is the tiller bolted on tight? Are the O rings OK?

2) What's wrong with the Honda?

I think the purpose of the engine lifting mechanism is to lift the engine out of the well after each sail so that it does not stay in the water all the time. While this may be the preferred method, I can't imagine doing it. I'm sure most people just leave it in the water. My 10 year old 8hp Yamaha seems quite happy that way.

If you only install/remove the engine once a year, a friend or the boatyard can do it for you.

As far as the rudder goes, I wouldn't get into trying to have parts fabricated until you're quite sure there is a real problem.

Not trying to curb your enthusiasm, just trying to save you alot of money.

Several times I thought my boat had problems that needed major repair or improvement, when it turned out everything was fine or just needed a little fix.

Now I tend to spend alot of time thinking about a project before I actually do it. Some people have the nerve to call this procrastination.

:B>

[Ed Ekers]

Scott, I agree with Pete on thinking out the issues and making sure the work needs to be done. These are stout little yachts and often don't need as much work as you might think. That being said I will offer you a couple insights from my experience. As a long time tenant of SC Harbor I can say with a great deal of confidence that a 6 hp long shaft is the ideal size motor for the Monterey Bay. As far as leaving it in the water I do disagree with Pete on that. Between the salt water and being in a hot harbor a motor left in the water will not last one year. There is a gentleman in SF (Gene Roberts) that has the Gauhauer lifting davit and he has all positive things to say about it. I also know of others that have rigged a small block and tackle lifting system that they hook on to the back stay that works well also. I can give you more info on that if you want it.

Three years ago I did a rudder shaft replacement job on Pathfinder. I tied this together with a regular bottom maintenance job. I did not need to touch the rudder shoe though. What I ended up doing is hauled the boat and removed the rudder. I had the metal shop at Svens in Alameda make up the new half shaft at a cost of appx $250 and about a four day wait. In the meantime I got to work on doing the bottom and stripping the rudder. The rudder work was done at home.

After getting the new shaft and mounting it on the rudder I chose to fiberglass the rudder. I worked with the guys at the glass shop on Capitola Road and 7th ave. They were very helpful in talking me through the whole project and getting me the materials that best fit the job. My cost for this was less than $100 and a lot of time sanding.

The end result was all the work done and the boat back in the water in two weeks time. You might be able to save a little time if you could have someone remove the rudder while the boat is still in the water. Not the easiest thing to do but an experienced diver can do it.

[bkeegel2]

I have done both a re-power and a rudder repair. I chose a 9.9hp 2-stroke. I leave mine in the water. I sail on the Chesapeake and hve not had too much problems with motor deterioration in the past, but I did just replace a 1993 motor with a brand new one (not as a result of corrosion). If 8-10 years of life is all I can get out of an outboard that is left in the well, it is still worth it to me to avoid having to pull the motor up every time I sail, besides I have remote throttle and start cable hooked up and don't want to connect/disconnect them every time I go out.

I was surprised at the hefty biece of bronze that comprised the rudder shaft. When I first bought the boat there was some play in the rudder that I attributed to shaft deterioration, but I realized that this was not the cause when I took my rudder off. I did have some loosening of the rudder boards, and I solved this with filler and glass (directly over the teak rudder boards) The looseness that I spoke of was caused by the tiller end fitting and a larger than necessary clearence around the rudder post head. I was able to have the fitting pressed, which gave it a snug feel, but has also introduced some stress ( I've since noticed a tiny crack begining to form in this piece, and will probably need to get myself a new one in the near future)

I also recomend that you don't go buying the shaft until you know that you need it.

[commanderpete]

What do you do with the engine after you lift it up?

Leave it hanging there as an invitation to criminal elements?

Carry it off the boat to your car and take it home?

Carry it down into the cabin?

I suppose the lift could swing over the cockpit locker and you could lower it into there. But, the prop would surely ding something eventually.

If you do buy a new engine, keep in mind that some brands will not fit into the motor well. You definitely want to make sure the engine can swivel to make docking easier. Some types of engines will not fit because of their throttle arm configuration.

The throttle arm is removed if you have a remote control throttle/shift mechanism. I second the vote for that. It's a real neat feature.

Unfortunately, during a recent wild party on my boat, the shift arm on the remote control got broke off. But, that's another story altogether.

[Ed Ekers]

The vast majority of the boats that I have seen in the SF area do one of two things with the motor. It is either stowed in the lazarette or placed below decks. Those of us that race will remove the motor and stow it below directly under the mast.

I have to admit that the motor seems to be getting bigger and heavier every year.

[Scott Galloway]

Thank you to commanderpete, Ed Eskers, and bkeegel2 for your thoughtful responses to my questions.

Regarding the motor. It is helpful to know that a six horsepower long shaft will power another Ariel around Monterey Bay. I am not yet sure that I need to buy a new motor. The Honda 7.5 is about to head for the shop for an inspection and overhaul, but I wanted to know the range of options and alternatives before I authorize what could be a major overhaul. The repair folks tell me there is some evident corrosion damage. Frankly as a result of my lifting limitation, I want the lightest weight motor that will safely power this boat.

My previous small boat sailing experience has always presented me with an easily liftable transom mounted outboard. Although leaving the motor in the water is certainly a possibility, I have not considered it seriously in the past because of the strong recommendations against doing so by the manufacturers. On my last boat, I raised and lowered the transom-mounted motor every time I sailed. A padlock and chain was sufficient to discourage any would be motor pirates.

The Gauhauer lifting davit looks interesting to me, and the price of the unit at $200 seems reasonable given the fact that it can be used to move the motor from the dock to the well, and from the well to the cockpit, and I can't do either one by myself. Since the Association Maintenance Manual has documented Gene Roberts' installation of this lift in a Pearson Ariel, we know that they can be adapted for use in an Ariel. I was merely hoping that someone else out there had actually used one and might offer some advice in this regard. The information in the Association Maintenance and Operating Manual is very helpful and easy to understand. I have written to Gauhauer, but have not yet received a response.

Regarding the rudder issues, I have no idea at this point what is wrong with the rudder if anything. I feel a clunk when I move the rudder from side to side, and I do not have the expertise to know what that means. Frankly I wasn't too worried about it, until I spoke with the prior owners. My surveyor (in water only to-date) told me that from the feel of the rudder, he suspects that there is a problem at both the top and bottom of the shaft. The prior owners have more or less advised me against taking the boat out in the ocean with the current condition of the rudder, but I have no way of evaluating what that means since they did not define that condition. I don't think that this boat has been hauled for some time, so it is likely that no one will know the condition of the rudder until haulout.

I can't haul the boat until I get the existing motor or a new motor back on the boat, since I have to duck under a bridge with my tabernacled mast lowered to get to the yard. My desire is to haul once and not twice if possible. I read up on the rudder design in the Association Maintenance and Operating Manual, and noted that no manufacturers of replacement parts are listed for the rudder bearing, shoe or shaft. It is very good to know that Svendsen's yard can make up a half shaft (I assume that was the top half for Pathfinder) if necessary. My desire is to locate suppliers prior to hauling rather than spend my lay days running about, so that reference is very helpful.

I will probably rehabilitate the existing engine, drop it in the well, add a removable Gauhauer lifting davit, haul the boat, and take a good look at the rudder. It is helpful to see what other have experienced before I go to the yard for the first time. Overall I really like my new Ariel. I have spent a bit of time working below and on the running rigging. I also have a lot of deck work to do before the winter rains start.

Anyway I appreciate the advice to an Ariel-newby from you long term Ariel owners. Any additional comments or suggestions will be appreciated.

Scott

[Ed Ekers]

Scott a couple local knowledge points I might offer you. There is a yard in Alameda that has done at least one rudder shoe. The people at Grand Marina yard had a mold made and poured a new shoe. Additionally the fellow ebb inquired about a shoe and may have had one made as well. You might want to check with him.

In terms of your motor unless you have a personal relationship with Dave and his motor shop (off Seabright) I would encourage you to find some other shop to work on the motor. I have used the local shop Dave's Motor two times in recent years and both times after paying bills I ended up having to take the motor in to another shop and spending twice as much to have the same repairs done again and more. One shop that seems to be very trustworthy is the Outboard Motor Shop in Alameda near Svens. Good Luck.......ed

[Scott Galloway]

Ed,

Thanks for the additional advice regarding rudder shoes and outboard motors. I plan on having Honda dealer go through my 7.5 Honda. I have used that shop before to perform repairs on a Honda 9.9 on a boat that I take care of for a friend here locally in Santa Cruz, and with good results. They were nice enough to check my 7.5 out superficially for me, and although they noticed that there is some evident corrosion damage, they indicated that the motor appeared to have been well cared for. It is however a 1986 motor, and it has been used in salt water (when it was being used) for that entire period, so I am guardedly optimistic, but I do not anticipate that the motor will have a long remaining useful life. However the thing is a four cycle, and it weighs a ton, so in the long run I would probably be happier with a newer and lighter 6hp motor. If the repair estimate is too high, I will be shopping for a used 6hp motor.

I will track down that rudder shoe so that if I need it I will be able to obtain one quickly. Since I am in the midst of a rather extensive overhaul on this boat, I am trying to be careful about my priorities, so that I do not exceed my budget.

Once again thanks to all for the helpful advice. It is wonderful to have this sort of support system for a 35 year old boat....but what a boat!

[tcoolidge]

I use a 1989 6hp Johnson long shaft and it works wonderfully. Gets me in and out of moorages easily and will push the boat against wind and chop to get to them if needed. I will say if you are going up against a stiff current, 4-5 knots or greater, you're probably better off waiting for the tide to turn. The motor is also pretty easy to hoist by hand and when not in use will lay flat in the lazarette. ( I'm not a big believer in leaving a motor in electrically hot salt water unneccessarily) I even built a little cradle to secure it in so I can eliminate the drag of having it in the water when I'm travelling long distances.
As to the rudder, I agree with everyone else about not fixing it if it ain't really broke. There was some play in mine when I bought the boat and I decided to keep a close eye on it and wait and fix it if it got worse. Five years later I'm still waiting. It hasn't gotten any worse and I have used the boat a lot in that time. I have found it helps a bit to make sure the upper bearing is properly seated since it seems to work up away from the rudder shaft tube a little over time.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks to tcoolidge for your response on the rudder and motor issues I raised. It looks like quite a few Ariel skippers use 6 hp motors. Knowing that is helpful, sicn my 7.9 Honda may or may not be on it's lasty legs. I received my Gauhauer catalog today. In a conversation with Gauhauer, I have learned that they have an upgrade to their lifting davit that makes the davit easier to use than it was before by a single hander. It sis not curently reflected in th catalog. I am heading in that direction, and will post my impression when I reach that point. As far as the rudder goes, I do not intend to fix what is not broken, but my surveyor and the prior owner both indicate that I have some work to do on this rudder, and I want to be as informed as possible before I haul out for the first time to minimize yard time, and running around while my boat is out of the water. So thanks to all for the valuable info on this subject. I am finding the Association Maintenance manual, this forum, and the frinedly community of Ariel owners to be valuable respources. This makes me very glad that I decided to buy an Ariel.

[commanderpete]

Scott,

If your boat has had galvanic activity sufficient to corrode the engine, and possibly the rudder shaft, make sure your surveyor takes a good look at the thru-hulls and sea cocks.

You also mentioned you have a "tabernacled mast." Maybe someday you could post some pictures of that custom feature. It sounds like a prior owner knew what they were doing.

Cheers,

Peter

[Scott Galloway]

Peter,

Yes we are going to take a look at thru hulls etc when I haul. I already had the in water survey at the dock, but it wasn't possible to move the boat under the bridge here to the marine yard before I took the plunge by buying the boat. My surveyor was very positive about everything with the exception of some corrosion in the rigging near the top of the mast, the obvious and plentiful impact related deck cracks, and also those in the cockpit, and the rudder issues. He felt pretty good about the thru hulls from his inside inspection, but of course we haven't looked at the hull below waterline yet or the rudder. The outflow thru hull for the head has been relocated, and the cockpit thu hulls are also newer, so I am hopeful that all is well.

Regarding the tabernacle and rigging, someone did a great job on the rigging and spent some money at one point. I have Norseman fittings all around and beefy pelican hooks and a very nice backstay adjusters, but the rigging is now older. The backstay chainplate is original and has not been upgraded, ansd some of the boom attachment points show considerable stress from the lowering process used in the tabernacle. I do want to rerig some things before I move the boat, so I am not yet happy with the tabernacle arrangement. At present it is more or less a two person operation that exceeds my lifting limitation.

One thing to watch out for in a tabernacle is that the mast base should be elevated so that the mast will fully lower without hitting the forward hatch. This is not the case on my boat, so I can not lower the mast far enough to do work on the mast head. You might be surprised how that forward hatch interfers with lowering the mast. On my last boat, I could stand on a short step ladder on the dock and wpork on the mast head. That is very desireable since you don't have to climb the mast to do rigging work or paint the mast.

Also a raised mast base would ease the process of running the halyards back to the cockpit. I am wondering how others have handled that issue, although that is probably a good topic for another post and not this thread. I don't much like drilling more holes near the base of my mast. Starboard and port deck organizer blocks have been installed on the top of th cabin, and there are some appropriate openings (oval shaped holes)for block attachment in the aluminium mast base plate, but there is at present no way to run fair lines from the mast base plate up to the organizer blocks on the cabin top, so I need an intermediate block somewhere to properly align the halyards into those fixed organizer blocks. I have an inelegant solution, but I am still looking for an elegant one. Perhaps I should post another question on the forum on this item.

I will take photos of my tabernacle for anyone who wants them. I do maintain a sailing web page that is listed with my info on this forum's members page. I currently have feature pages on the Marieholm IF Boat, the Marieholm 26, the Lapworth 24 Gladiator. I am currently developing an Ariel page, and hope to post some useful info there including photos in time.

As of this time I have not taken a single photo of my boat, since the work I have been doing is primarily cleaning, painting, electrical, and some cosmetic stuff. When I get into technical modifications, I intend to post those to my site in hopes that they wil be useful to others. I have a lot to do on this boat. I plan to spend some time thinking out tabernacle modifications; installation of a motor lifting davit ( I am in contact with an Ariel Association member who has installed a Gauhauer davit sucessfully; a unique removeable lifeline system (its' about half designed at present); and I also want to deal with the lack of an ice box (I have a spiffy good looking chart table instead); and a head (my boat has none).

Thanks for your comments. This thread has been very helpful to me.

[Bill]

Scott,

The manual has an alternative mast step design in the appendix. It was for a boat located in Klamath Falls, OR that was trailered extensively.

As for lines eminating from the mast, come to the ISR on October 20. Most of the boats participating lead their sail control lines to the cockpit. Although similar, you will see some different approaches.

Bill

[Scott Galloway]

Bill,

Thanks for the suggestion. I will be at the event on the 20th. However I have a prior commitment here, So I will probably not arrive in Alameda until about 5:00 PM. I look forward to meeting you then, and seeing how others have handled running their halyards back to the cockpit.

Since on my boat two very nice deck organizer blocks have been installed on the topmost portion of the cabin, back from the front edge, my options are limited. The blocks were installed by the previous owner, but the project was never completed. The location of those blocks is the determining factor in designing the rest of the system. I do not intent to move those blocks. A further factor is the tabernacle arrangement, since the mast with its halyards, downhaul reefing lines etc. need to move forward. Therefore I presume that all lines that have been run to the cockpit from the mast mast be uncleated and left to run free before the mast is lowered, and then secured again once it is raised. Motoring beneath a bridge with the intent of sailing on the other side immediately afterwards by a single hander should be an interestiung drill.

Regarding the taberbacle. The metal portions of mine seem just fine in general, with the exception of the conflict between the forward hatch and the lower portion of the mast. This is not a problem for slipping under the bridge here, which is the major objective of the tabernacle,but it does make working on the top portion of the mast at the dock impossible, since the mast cannot be lowered sufficiently to reach the uper portion of the mast in a reasonable manner from the dock. There would be little point in modifying the mast step to solve this problem unless one wanted to replace the standing rigging. In designing a tabernacle system however the mast/forward hatch conflict is an important consideration.

My issue with tabernaclke involves the mast raising and lowering process, which is now accomplished with the main halyard, a six foot length of line to permit the halyard to be attached to the end of the boom, the purchase on the mainsheet tackle, some issues with the traveler, which is not in it's original location, and the current boom guy system.

I intend to modify the back stay to permit it to be detached in the vicinity of the end of the boom, and reattached to the boom to permit lowering of the mast using the backstay and a modified mainsheet system. A new boom guy arrangement is still under study. It will involve some other systems. The current set-up is pretty much a two person operation, but it seems to work fine in that application. For a single hander, it would be tough to do all the stuff you have to do to get the mast down and up again while the boat is moving down a crowded yacht harbor channel.

Thanks again for your comments. See you on the 20th, and for this great forum.

[commanderpete]

I tip my hat to you.

Don't think you need to worry too much about the Harbor Channel being crowded, though. Once those other boaters see your mast pointing out from the bow like an evil prow they're going to give you a wide berth. ;)

[Scott Galloway]

Commanderpete,

You'd be surprised what damage you can do with your mast lowered. The fellow who bought my last boat managed to hit the bridge and dismast the boat. I don't know where the mast was at the time. There is an interesting electrical or phone line just past the bridge when you come in. If you pull the mast up too soon...well the result is not nice.

There are some interesting scratch marks on the bottom side of the bridge. The height of the bridge above sea level varies based on the tide of course, and this surprises some people who get used to how far they play out their main sheet when they lower their mast.

Some folks in the outer harbor do come zipping out of their slips into the harbor channel, and not always after careful consideration of the trajectories of those who are about to, or who have just raised or lowered their masts, and some of those are under sail power so they have right of way. It can get dicey. The simpler the tabernacle, the better.

Also these tabernacle rigs have a lot of stability in the fore and aft direction, but very little lateral stability. You would not want to cause a force to be exerted on the mast to port or starboard while it is down. A weell designed boom guy set-up helps keep the boom from flopping over, but does not stay the mast. The aft lower shroud is released and the foreward shroud is slack. A quick turn to avoid a collision with a mast down at a 30 degree angle off the water and your aft lower shrouds and back stay released would not be my choice, particlularly when single handing. It is of course a good idea to keep your crew (if you have one) off the foredeck once the backdstay has been released.

The sad thing about this tabernacle business is that it doesn't have very much to do with sailing, but it requires a lot of bucks to modify the rig to safely lower and raise the mast.I am fortunate to have purchased a boat with a rig that has already been tabernacled.

[Mike Goodwin]

You can firm up the rudder play at the top end of the shaft with a Cutlass bearing of the proper size , did that to #45 this summer and it feels great . The repair is documented on the Ariel Yahoo site .

Mike

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

Thank you for your reply to my question about the Ariel rudder.

I looked at the photos of your cutlass bearing on the Yahoo Ariel site, but I did not see a written description of its use or installation on theYahoo site. I am new to that web site, so perhaps I wasn't looking in the right place.

In any case, that's a very interesting solution to rudder shaft play. There does not seem to be a lot of play in my rudder, but there is a clunking noise when one turns the tiller sharply. I do have a spare rudder bearing. Hopefully that will solve part of my problem, although my surveyor tells me that I should also be worried about the bottom of the rudder, and the prior owners told me that they do not recommend taking the boat out into the ocean until the rudder is repaired, but were not specific about what was needed.

Since I have not yet had my rudder out of the water, I don't know yet exactly what I have, or how much of a rudder is actually down there.

Do I understand that you used the cutlass bearing instead of the designed rudder brearing, or was the cutlass bearing used in addition to the standard Ariel rudder bearing? Is there a posting or an uploaded file on the Yahoo site that describes in text form your fix for rudder play?

[Mike Goodwin]

Scott,
From what I saw , there really isn't much of a top bearing , just an O-ring in the ruddershaft cap .

To read the details at Yahoo , go to the site , look for MESSAGES , and read the threads in July .
If you need more info , let me know .

My repair gives you 4" of bearing surface and it feels like new .

Mike

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

Thanks, the postings in the messages area of the Yahoo site begining in June 2001 and continuing thru July are very clear regarding the use of and specification for the cutlass bearing you used on your Ariel. I appreciate you pointing me in the right direction. I was given a cylindrical piece of plastic (pvc)and told it was the rudder bearing. The plastic cylinder has a rubber "o" ring on it.

I do have one more question for you, however.

Your June 26, 2001 posting on the Yahoo site states in part, "Got a piece of cutlass bearing stock , and made a bushing that goes down
the fiberglass tube under the tiller fitting.
I used 1 1/2" OD X 1" ID bearing stock , fits perfectly inside glass tube."

Page 168 of the Ariel Association Manual shows a drawing of a "rudder post bearing and rudder post". The bearing depicted on that page appears to be identical to the part that I have. Am I to assume that your cutlass bearing section slips into the rudder post tube under this cylinder, or is your bearing a replacement part for the pvc unit depicted on page 168 of the manual?

Thanks,

[Mike Goodwin]

My bearing was a complete replacement as I had no bearing at all left in the rudder post.

[Scott Galloway]

Mike,

Thanks again. The picture is now complete. Fortunately I do have a brand new bearing, but I find your cutlass bearing solution to be quite intriguing.

[ebb]

Scott, Mike, me and my gal's crooked rudder tube will have to use the short bearing. the micarta original is too beat up, so Scott where did you say you got the new one? What is it made out of? I was thinking a replacement could be machined out of delrin just like the original with in and out O-rings

[Bill]

He Ebb, there's a tech drawing of the bearing in the manual. Check page 168

[Scott Galloway]

ebb,

The rudder bearing I have is brand new, but came with the boat when I bought it. I am not aware source or of the manufacturer. It looks like it was manufactured by someone who knew what they were doing, and appears to be indentical to the drawings in the Association Maintenance Manual. What's it made of? I'm not sure. It is white plastic of some sort with rubber or synthetic "o" rings. It could be an original Pearson part for all I know, but as I say it is brand new.:)

[Theis]

I can't resist getting in my two cents of free advice from a Great Lakes skipper regarding motor size. I used to have a 6 HP vinrude and found the motor very inadequate, at least in this environment.
1. Reverse is terrible. When going into a slip in a wind, where it is necessary to maintain speed to maintain steerage, the motor cavitates in reverse and does little to stop the boat. This might be OK if you have a bulky crew with substantial mass, that is reliable. However, it is not a good scene with the Mrs.

2. If you have to travel a distance to get to the open water, the difference in speed between and 6hp and your motor, or a larger one is significant (perhaps as much as 2 mph)

3. At least on the Great Lakes, the Ariel does not do well in a chop under motor power. Relatively little wind or chop can stop it in its tracks. Power (and a power prop) make the difference.

I have also had a 9.9 McCollough which did well, and now have a Yamaha 2 cycle 8hp which works well. The Yamaha is a light engine (about 62lbs, as I recall). I have moved the battery forward, and generally only fill the two gas cans half full (unless crossing large distances) to keep the stern light. I don't pull the engine - even in the winter - but then, I don't have to contend with salt water.

So, in summary, if you are cruising, and sailing with the motor installed, I would go larger, not smaller. The 7.5 should do well, but make sure you have a power prop. That makes all the difference in the world.

[Scott Galloway]

I finally completed most of my topside work, and went for my first sail. After encountering some steering trouble at sea last Monday, I hired a diver to take a look at the plans in the Association Maintenance Manual and then inspected on my rudder prior to a haul-out while my boat was in teh water.

On Monday, the boat handled well in light winds, but when the wind picked up to about fifteen knots, the boat did not want to fall off from a close reach onto a beam reach even after the sails were relaxed, and I pulled the rufdder hard over. The sensation was that the rudder seemed to have little influence on the direction of th boat. The boat wanted to hold it's close reach course.

The diver tells me that although the rudder looks very much like the one in the Association Maintenance Manual, the installation is not the same as shown in the manual. He tells me that the bronze shaft is one piece.

He also tells me that the shaft seems well seated in the "shoe" on the bottom end, although he described the shoe as an extension of the back of the keel. He told me what I already know, and that is that the top of the shaft has a lot of play in it. I have a new bearing which appears to meet the specification in the manual.

So today I attempted to install the new rudder bearing while my boat was in the water. I removed the tiller, and then removed the two (one was missing) setscrews on the chrome-bronze end cap that covers the upper shaft bearing. The setscrews removed easily, and the end cap now turns freely. I then removed the bolt in the forward side of the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting.

The bolt removed easily, but the chrome-bronze tiller head fitting won't budge. The plan in the manual show a key or keyway, which extends for two inches from the top of the bronze shaft downward, identified on page 170 as "Keyway 1/4" Key".

I am not sure what that means, but from what I can see of my bronze shaft it appears to be perfectly round. I can find no drawing of the tiller head fitting in the manual, although I have a drawing of the shaft, one of the glass tube, and upper bearing, and one of the rudder shoe.

Now my chrome-bronze tiller head fitting, which is stuck to the bronze rudder shaft, can be lifted (along with the bronze shaft) by hand to a position about one inch or more above the top of the chrome-bronze end cap.

My tiller head fitting has a slit in the front, presumably so that when one tightens the bolt on the front side it compresses the fitting onto the shaft. Again, I can't get the fitting off the cap.

My questions are:

Is this normal? Should the rudder be able to slide upon the tube a distance of one or more inches?

How on earth do you get the tiller head fitting off the bronze shaft without damaging it?
:confused:

[ebb]

That bronze bolt that holds the tiller head to the ruddershaft squeezes the tillerhead casting to the shaft. This is a very good thing. After backing off the bolt, try to pry it very slightly apart with the blade of a screwdriver so that it will slip off. Like maybe just tap the blade in the crack. When it loosens tap the tillerhead strate UP.

To my knowledge nothing keeps the rudder itself from rising except its weight and the bottom of the bustle. If there is a lot of room between the top of the rudder and the bottom of the hull your rudder has cleared the housing of the shoe. The gudgeon strap is what keeps it aimed at the shoe. When you remove your rudder you first will have to remove this gudgeon.

The reason you have only a bearing under the tillerhead and NOT at the bottom of the bustle where the shaft emerges is so that when you remove the gudgeon the rudder can be moved over enough to clear the shoe so the rudder can be dropped out of the boat.

IMCO the gudgeon should be placed in such a way so that if a grounding occurs the rudder does NOT lift out of the shoe. There should be some play up and down but not so that a stone or whatever could get into the hole in the shoe. I don't know if this is an issue on as-builts as 338 came without the strap gudgeon.

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Ebb,

That helps explain what is going on. My diver says that so far the rudder looks pretty good and he says that the rudder is seated well in the shoe or whatever that is down there at the bottom of my possibly modified rudder, but I am concerned about the ability of the rudder to rise one inch or more, as it does now, if that causes the bottom of the shaft to clear the shoe, and as you say possibly come out of the shoe.

How far should the rudder shaft lift the tiller head fitting above the end cap? In other words about what distance is normal, or how far before the bottom lifts clear of the shoe?

By the way, I did force a screwdriver into that crack. I gently pried it and even tapped it with my plastic hammer, but I was gentle about it. I did not want to break the fitting. The fitting didn't budge.

I tried to push upward by putting pressure upwards on the bottom of the fitting but it wouldn't budge.

It would seem to me that if one tapped up on the fitting, one would have to do so while holding securely with a clamp of some sort onto the bronze shaft, or else in my case since my shaft floats upwards by one inch or so, I would be tapping the whole bronze shaft upwards against the gudgeon, the bottom of the hull or whatever else holds it down there.

At present my diver sees no need to otherwise remove the rudder, which appears to be in good shape and has apparently already had a full-length shaft installed to replace the originally installed unit.

My objective is to replace the upper bearing and to otherwise with a diver insure that my rudder is safe, before I head fifteen miles away across more or less open ocean to the marine yard where I intend to haul out for the first time. Since I had some steering problems last Monday in fifteen knots of wind, I am particularly wary. On the other hand it was my first trip to sea in Augustine, and the turkey at the helm could have been part of my steering problem...Although I have experience sailing a variety of fin and full keel boats in all sorts of sea and wind conditions, and have previously broken off two rudders on fin keel boats while at sea, I am brand new to the Pearson Ariel, have never before sailed on one, and am therefore a novice in this regard. I did have the traveler secured on the high side and hadn't yet moved it into a low side (leeward) position after a prior tack when I was attempting to fall off. That would have given me somewhat more weather helm I assume, but that much? I don't think so.

I have encountered boats that won't tack, but not being able to fall off only happened to me once before, and that boat had lost it's rudder. Then again we were eventually able to fall off and did not have any other problems that day.

My problem could just be the need of a top bearing, or could have resulted if the shaft for some reason rose out of the shoe or for some other reason was binding below. However my diver and I played wit the rudder in the water two days ago and it seems to be working just fine.

So all thoughts on this matter will be helpful.

Thanks

[Bill]

Scott, the tiller head fitting can be difficult to remove. Forcing the tangs apart and using a hammer from below worked for me. The gudgeon is strong enough to take the abuse. [When all else fails, get a bigger hammer :)]

With the tiller head fitting removed, removing the gudgeon and then lifting the shaft out of the shoe is how you remove the rudder assembly from the boat. The R&R description in the manual it not very detailed because the process is simple and straight forward.

There is a bit of "slack" in the shaft that results from the less than precision fitting of the gudgeon and shaft. Usually, it's the size of the notch in the rudder board around the area where the gudgeon and shaft meet that accounts for the upward movement. Not a problem since the tiller head fitting holds things in place.

It would be my opionion that your sailing difficulties had to do with sail trim and rig tune.

[ebb]

Even if you had NO bearing under the tillerhead you could still steer - because the rudder is captured by the rudder tube. It would make you very unhappy.

A new top bearing is a topic you can find on the history channel HERE I hope. Mike used a piece of cutlass bearing with success. 338 will have machined delrin in a copy of the original black micarta (because the r. tube is crooked requireing the short bearing.) If I remember there was no concensus on what actually to do for a spec replacement.

If you have a normal shoe, there is a 3/4" diameter hole 3/4" deep in the heel. Your 1" shaft is turned at the bottom to fit. It actually rides on that bit of a flange on the shoe. If you raise the rudder an actual inch you have cleared the hole and only the copper strap is containing the rudder shaft.

It's probably too bloody esoteric but I think there should be a bearing in the form of a washer between the ruddershaft flange and the bearing surface of the shoe. Any ideas? (deathly silence)

Make sure you do separate what the bolt has squeezed together. It's all a single casting that part. You may want to use a chisel the width of the metal to force it open. More surface to evenly open the split than a screwdriver blade. The bronze is a bit soft. And only you know how long it's been on there.:o

[Mike Goodwin]

I was out single handing yesterday 8 hrs ( celebrating no chemo needed )in a fair breeze , full main and working jib ( should have had 1st reef in main ) , I was able to balance out the boat and walk to the foredeck to clear a sheet , my cutlass bearing adaption works just fine . Was able to steer with my butt when tacking so both hands were free to handle the sheets .
I was rail down and tiller was centered in the cockpit , main traveler was eased all the way down .
I agree with Bill , I think your rig is out or you were overtrimmed .

[Ed Ekers]

Scott,
I want to offer a couple of thoughts just to make sure the trip to the yard is safe for you. First I agree with everything being said already. The one point that I did not hear from you or your diver is if there even is a gudgeon/ copper strap. Ebb is right on, if you can raise the shaft one inch there is something wrong. If the shaft lifts that much and the head does come off the next thing to happen is the rudder could end up in the mud.

The second point I might offer is if you had to pull as hard as you say you did and there was no response to the helm other than heavy pressure you might have smoothed off the key in the tiller head. This might be some of the problem in getting the head off. On Pathfinder the key way is hard metal but the key is very soft brass. I have not seen this potential key problem occur but I could see a way it could happen.

My last point/tip is from some years ago. I recall the first time I attempt to remove the tiller head it was a bear to get off. After doing all the spreading and tapping I ended up using blocks and pry bars while someone else tapped. It took some time and switching back and forth but it finally did pop. As a added note I often add a little brass shim paper to the key now that helps take up some of the sloop in the key way......ed

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks for all the responses.

My diver returned on Friday morning and did full bottom cleaning for me. I lifted the rudder, and although it does lift one full inch, the diver advised me that the bottom of the post remains in the shoe. The diver reaffirmed that my rudder shaft is one part from hull to shoe, and therfore is other than original. He feels that the rudder and shaft is sound. My bottom paint is even in good condition. Therefore I must conclude that the rudder shaft that I have is slightly different than "as built" designs on other Ariels. Since significant changes were also mae in the rigging, I assume that someone devoted some time and money to upgrading this boat at some time in the past.

I retensioned my stays and took the boat out on Friday afternoon in about 20 knots of wind and a building swell. We sailed with the rail down for about two and a half very wet hours on all points of sail, and had absolutely no trouble steering. This time, we kept the main centered on the traveler the whole day. I had a very experienced friend aboard, and we both concluded that the boat sails well, and that the rudder works as intended. Also, with a clean bottom, Augustine sails wonderfully.

So the suggestions on tuning and mainsail trim seem to have been good ones. My original impressions of lack of rudder control were gathered on the mainden voyage, with a basically untuned rig, poorly trimmed sails and with the understanding from the prior owner that the rudder has some structural problems.

Since my diver has now inspected the rudder, and I tested the rudder at the dock with the diver and under sea conditions and the rudder seems to be to be sound, I feel that I can proceed to sail away to haulout. I will probably dive down there and take a look at it myself before I sail off to haulout just to make sure that there is a gudgeon based on the last comments from Ed.

Thanks again for all the advice on how to get this pesky tiller head fitting off the shaft. By the way, Augustine is looking good and reflecting the hard above waterline work of the past year. I hope to add some photos to my Ariel web site soon.

[Scott Galloway]

OK, so forget what I said.

Thanks to all the advice from this site, and plastic hammer, and a mess of anti-corrosion stuff, I was able to get my the tiller head fitting off today...and surprise: I discoverd that the reason the tiller head fitting had been so pesky to remove was that a cylinder made from an aluminum Pepsi can had been used as a shim so that the "jaws" on the tiller head fitting would not clamp shut before the tiller head fitting was clamped tightly to the bronze shaft.

So, we have a chromed-bronze tiller head fitting secured with stainless steel bolts and an aluminum shim to a bronze rudder shaft.

Has anyone encountered this before?

By the way; there is still play in my upper rudder, but the Delrin bearing (white plastic bushing) and its O rings look as if they are nearly new.

[Mike Goodwin]

To get rid of the upper play , my cutlass bearing fix took out 100% of mine . There is a bearing that fits perfectly and is easy to install .

[ebb]

Wouldn't mind seeing what this white plastic and O-ring bearing looks like. IMCO the top of the rudder tube is too funky for hi-tech. The lop-sided micarta bearing on 338 was there 35 year. The chrome top held it on with set screws in the frp! Not vey well.

Aren't O-rings for compression aaapplications? They wouldn't be worth a damn in the turning of the shaft against a stationary bearing surface. Course if you had a zertz fitting on the tube you give it a shot of grease every Sunday. Might work.

Go cutlass. Or have the original remade. Ref the Mighty Manual.

[Scott Galloway]

The white plastic piece with the O rings looks exactly like the one in the technical drawing in the appendix of the Ariel Association Maintenance Manual. I have two of them. One is in use at the top of the rudder tube. It fits very snuggly over the bronze shaft inside the rudder tube, and the outside diameter of the top rim (flange) of the "bearing" is the same as that of the outside diameter of the rudder tube.

That "bearing" has been on the boat for some time apparently, but there is very little if any wear. The second "bearing" that I have is a nearly identical spare. The only diffeence is that the O rings on the spare bearing seem to be a little smaller in width, but of the same diameter as the bearing in active service.

I am still interested to know if if I am the only person out there with a Pepsi can wrapped around his rudder shaft inside of the tiller head fitting.

It seems that one could use a plastic shim instead of the Pepsi can, or even better file a small amount of bronze from the inside of the jaws of the tiller head fitting to permit the fitting to formly grasp the shaft without fully closing its jaws.

[Bill]

IMHO, you are the winner of the Pepsi can contest :D

[Scott Galloway]

Yes Bill, I probably am the winner of the Ariel Pepsicola Classic, however the aluminum shim in my tiller head fitting does raise a question:

Are shims commonly used in the Ariel tiller head fitting to insure a tight fit of the fitting onto the rudder shaft, or is this just not a problem on other boats. Pehaps my shaft, which is probably a replacement of the original, is slightly smaller than standard. The shaft, keyway and key appear to be in fine condition.

Is it best to replace the aluminum shim with a plastic shim? I am currently considering using the thin plastic sheet from a "No Hunting" sign.

Or would it be better to file off some of the the non threaded side of the tiller head fitting jaws so that the tiller head fitting will clamp tightly onto the shaft.

This is not a bearing problem, nor is it related to play in the tiller head. This issue relates solely to the fact that on my boat, without a shim, the tiller head fitting jaws will close totally before the fitting is tightly clamped onto the shaft, and therefore the prior owner used an aluminum shim made from a Pespi can to solve the problem. In short has anyone else out there shimmed the top of their shaft, or is my boat unique?

[Bill]

Sounds as though the relacement shaft is undersized making it necessary to shim it to hold the tiller head fitting. To the best of my knowledge, yours is the only boat to have this situation. Have you measured the shaft diameter?

[ebb]

Wouldn't be surprised if you took it to a machinist or you could do it yourself: hacksaw into the closed parts to make a little space to be squeezed. You'll probably just be cleaning out the crud in the crack anyway.

......well, well well. Just looked closely at 338s tiller head, and it does have a liner or shim around the inside of the hole. It could be brass. But I intend on using it again so I will make an effort to find bronze sheet. Might be hard to find. Ihe crack on it has had some bangs which makes it impossible to be drawn closed!

Edson makes a similar smaller/lighter tiller fitting for 1" shaft for around $100. The crack in it is 3/32". What makes this fitting interesting is that it has tangs for attaching to the tiller rather than the channel (on 338s) that limits the attachment to the top 1" of the tiller wood. It's a better design but not near as hefty. IMCO

[be advised that the keyway in the Edson is on the front of the shaft - the cockpit side]

[Bill]

Interesting. Maybe Pearson started using slightly thinner stock for the rudder shafts in the higher boat numbers. When I replaced the tiller head fitting on #76 (in the early '80's), there was no need to shim up the hole to get a grip on the rudder stock.

[ebb]

see below

[ebb]

I did try fit a piece of true 1"bronze shaft in the old tiller head with the shim and it slips right on. The new head fits more snug (in other words you can't get it on the shaft stock by hand) but it is chromed. Edson's plain bronze copy may slip on perfect.

338 did have a counterfeit rudder with a stock probably of s.s. propeller shaft as it showed no recognizable galvanic corrosion. It measures about 1/32 LESS that 1". No wonder there was slop! Can we assume that that barely discernable brass liner is ORIGINAL SHIM?:D

[Bill]

Hey, of all the things of which Pearson can be accused, using multiple metals below the water line is not one of them. 338's ss shaft was/is a replacement for the original bronze.

[Scott Galloway]

Very interesting. Augustine is hull #330, and has a shim inside th tiller head fitting, although not original, on a bronze shaft that is probably also not original. Ebb's Hull #338 seems to be in a different though parallel condition.

I want to replace my Pepsi can shim, and would like to find thin bronze sheet to do the trick, but failing to find such material, I will probably use plastic. Anyone know a source for thin sheets of bronze metal?

This rudder business will have to wait in any case. The rudder is serviceable at present, and I have to try out my spiffy new mast-base plates, which I had made of 316 stainless to mount a series of Garhauer blocks to run my lines back to the cockpit. I installed them today and they appear to work well to keep the lines clear as they pass over the rise in the deck. I will have to look for bronze shims later, but it is nice to know that there is at least one other boat out there with a shimmed tiller head fitting. Now I have to figure out what exactly I sholdl do about it.

[Mike Goodwin]

Places that sell fasteners ( I dont mean HomeDumpo or Lowes ) usually have shim stock of all kinds . Look for an industrial fastener outlet they will either have it or know where to get it .

[Scott Galloway]

Thanks Mike. It's good to know that they make such stuff. I'll look for some shim stock at an industrial fastener outlet in the Bay Area, as soon as I locate one. In the mean time me and my Pepsi can shim are going sailing. I slathered it up with some corrosion prevention stuff for the time being.

[ebb]

ok Mike, into the breech. ......let's see, there used to be a had it all fastnerner place on Harrison, I think it was called Harrison and Harrison, in S.F. I'll check with that high end [expensive!] welding shop that's gotten me out of trouble. And there's Randy's [metal] Design - I know he knows. I wonder if one of those VAST catalogs I hear about have shim material. MC Masters??

Think I'll get me a selection. Be good to have on the boat. Stainless and monel too. Probably have to buy a pound each

[Dan Maliszewski]

Just a few random thoughts on the subject.

A former owner had sandwiched the original rudder of my #199 Ariel in fibreglass. As it aged, the glass decomposed, admitted and held water, which rotted the wood, etc, etc. During my "seat of the pants" removal and breakdown of the rudder for patterns, I found that the solid looking shaft was indeed the familiar 2 piece Pearson design. Easy to mistake, Scott, esp. for a diver.

My tiller also was sloppy, and excess wear was found along the sides of the block, where the tiller arms lay, forward of the pivot bolt. The previous owner raced a lot, and just wore it out. A little brazing and Bridgeport work brought it back to dimension.

When you haul your boat, if it doesn't have one, be sure to replace that copper strap to the keel about mid-shaft. It steadies the shaft against flexing, esp. when hard down and reversing, as well as holding it in the shoe.

When you reattach the tiller block to the shaft, be sure to apply a good quality Nevr Sieze to the mating surfaces. I use the copper based variety. For shimming I suggest brass shim stock, but sleeving and reboring to the actual shaft size is the best fix, if you have the time.

Talk with the Forum sailors, they are a great help. Murphy's law ordered me to do most of my repairs/rebuilding before I knew of the Forum. Now I sit here and moan "now they tell me".

When you splash it back in, SAIL THE DAMN THING. Pearsons are not show dogs. They like to hunt and are only happy beating to windward at about 22 degrees. Like C'pete says, if it ain't fun, why do it?

Cheers.

[mrgnstrn]

since Izzy left me with a broken rudder (see the thread about Izzy for a pic) i am mulling over various methods to replace it.

1. just epoxy the two halves back together, and put a few bronze straps (~12" long) across the repair on both sides of the rudder, bolted to each other.

2. make a new mahogany rudder. using the same manufacturing and attachment methods. nut pockets in the rudder and all. i can use all but one of the old bolts (one broke)

3. make a new rudder out of fiberglass. this method would leave me with the finished rudder having all the bronze rudder stock encased in fiberglass too. this might be difficult to install once finished. i would have to take off the shoe at the bottom, raise the whole boat up high enough to slide the rudder stock up into the boat and in the cockpit. and then replace the shoe again.

4. buy the beat up ariel that is in my yacht yard and currently for sale on Ebay, and strip it of all kinds of parts: rudder, spreader sockets, cleats, etc. and then sell the remaining parts to everybody in the association. wasn't someone previously looking for a rudder shoe, an icebox hatch/cover and some cleats?
when i was done raping and pilaging this boat, i would cut the lead out, sell it to a recycler, and throw the hull away. and Ariel #370 would die, but #3 would live on.....
It sounds like a joke, but really, i am seriously considering it.

any thoughts on the above?

[Tony G]

I haven't been watching the auction but if C Pete doesn't mind buy the boat. It's in your yard, it's cheap, you'll get all of the pieces you'll need/want, you'll get your money back for salvage value. I hate the thought of destroying her but unless somebody really wants a project boat that's probably where she's headed. Why not get the most good out of her. Then use her rudderstock for a pattern to make a new solid rudder out of fiberglass or some other material. Then reproduce it and sell 'em to all of us for little or no profit!:D
For the time being I think option number one is your best bet. For what it's worth, Tony G

[marymandara]

If you DO chop the boat, I'd really like the rudder shoe from the keel.

Best,
Dave

[tcoolidge]

Option 1 seems simplest, probably cheapest and would probably work but is something of a stopgap measure. These boats, wonderful as they are, are getting along in years and eventually things need to be replaced if they are going to survive. I've generally found that when you have to start holding things together with straps and screws it's time to replace them.
Option 2 would be good if you can find the mahogany. The rudder that came on the boat lasted quite a while so there is no reason for a new one not to do the same. My reservations on this route are finding a decent piece of wood to build the new one out of and the possibility of corrosion or fatigue in the shaft or attachment points.
Option 3 would be great, especially if you follow Tony G's suggestion and produce a few. Since you're going to take it apart anyhow, ending up with a new rudder and not having to worry about it seems like the best possible outcome.
Option 4 would be worth considering just for the spare parts. Having a parts boat would be kind of handy. Before buying it just for the rudder, make sure that you are getting something worth the effort. The rudder and shaft are probably just as old as the one you have now.
If you do buy the ailing boat and want to part it out, let me know.
Tom
Furthur #332

[Chris Warfel]

I did option two, with two pieces of mahogney. It was tricky getting the bolts reset, but it was really interesting seeing how the rudder was origionally built.

Chris

[ebb]

My thought on canabalizing #370 is that it is a TERRIBLE waste.
The rudder is replaceable - but the Ariel isn't.
There just are not enough of these boats around.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was a competant and efficient yard that bought them and did a basic reconditioning to get them into the marketplaece again. Somebody will always want an Ariel or Commander!

Awhile ago an Ensign came into the yard that was lien saled. Nobody wanted her. It was stripped, chainsawed and crushed. Whenever these unfortunated boats are brought to the yard to be murdered, I make sure I have something else to do elsewhere.:mad:

[mrgnstrn]

someone else ended up buying the boat. and has not responded about his/her intentions (refurb or parting out).

i am leaning toward #1 for the next season, and using this next winter and summer to make a new one.

but whether to make a new mahogany, or a fiberglass one is up in the air. i am having trouble thinking throught the install of a fiberglass one.

if i make a fiberglass one that is complete, rudder with bronze pieces all molded into a solid, single unit, how on earth do i install it? i would have to have the aft end of the boat lifted like 3 feet into the air, just to have clearance to fit the rudder stock up into the boat ( the tiller/cockpit end).
my other thought is to replicate the shape the old rudder, and attach it to the rudder stock after the rudder stock is in the boat. but this introduces other problems: like how to do the fasteners, how to deal with the damn aperature, etc etc..
I don't like the idea of edge bolting a fiberglass rudder like the mahogany one is.
one idea is to leave really large holes in the rudder where the bolts/screws go in, push some screws into place, and fill the cavity with epoxy.

but whatever, that is a thought exercise for later.

[tcoolidge]

I am looking at the same project. Since it appears I have to replace the rudder shoe I figure I might as well do the whole rudder system while I'm at it so it will be done and I don't have to worry about it any more. My current thought is to have a new ruddershaft fabricated with the attachment bolts replaced by bronze straps ( flat stock) welded (or bolted) to the shaft then laying up a cold molded strip planked rudder to fit precisely around the straps. The straps would be predrilled to allow placement of attachment screws (bolts?) to reinforce the bond. Strip planking would probably be epoxy saturated cedar, which would minimize water entry and result in an incredibly strong final product. It might be a little heavy, but since I'm not a racer, that doesn't bother me and I would end up with a sealed, easily paintable rudder. Any thoughts?

[ebb]

There's rudder stuff on the history channel here. Punch Search if interested.
338's clam shell rudder has just been reactivated.
Basically the top third of the blade comes apart, held by a keyed channel on the post with three bolts. On the trailing edge the shell is held with 4 machine screws.

The rudder post is silicon bronze, as are the 1/8" straps, as are the fastenings. as is the welding wire. The idea of course was to get all the metal parts the same to avoid galvanic action. That was fine until Bristol admitted to casting the shoe in manganese. I had a discussion with Bristol about my rudder - the upshot being that silicon bronze is too soft for the job. Bristol said they supplied Pearson with rudder stock in the Ariel days and it was manganese. Roger said that while made from manganese the rudder would last 150 years my silicone one was only good for fifty. Silicone is 98% copper.

Hell, I attached the Bristol shoe to the rebuilt heel of 338's keel with peened over silicon rod and it seems to be showing some corrosion with crusty bright green weeps. The boat has been out of the water for more than two years and its showing signs of corrosion!!! It's obvious that there still is saltwater in the laminate in the aftend of the keel. But we do have two bronzes reacting. Out of the water! They're holding hands in the galvanic series.

The take apart design (the idea is not to have to raise the boat) requires more metal I think than a straight welded rod and strap. I had to kind of double the strapping in the two-part clamshell area. A plain welded strap to the shaft design IMCO is a good alternative to having holes drilled in the rod for the bolts in the wood version. Altho there has been no problem with this design, I understand. except aging. With the 338 rudder I used a rigid closed cell expanded PVC foam (Divinycell) to fill the spaces. Setting it in with epoxy gell.

I'm just about to do the glass work. But keeping the take apart option makes the glass work very difficult and takes away from the massive strength gained with sheathing the whole blade with glass around the rudder post. To be able to still take it apart the upper third would be split along the rod and, of course, split to the clam shell. I need a chunk of time to ruminate on the complexity to have it come out ok.

Even so, I'm not happy with the small fastenings holding the design together.

If you did not build your rudder out of polyester and urethane foam like the production boats (C'pete's survey report) but used PVC foam and epoxy, I think the rudder would be waterproof, taking in very little water, depending on the workmanship.

[Weight wise, this is a heavy rudder. I think it will turn out to be much heavier than mahogany with a bronze shaft. I also think a recreation of the original rudder will enhance the value of the boat, while a composite or trick rudder might detract.
On the other hand a bronze rudder post (rod, shaft) with welded bronze strap (rolled sheet) developed into an efficient grid that comes to a more pointy trailing edge than the woody - with hard closedcell foam, epoxy and frp (not carbon fiber which is too distant on the galvanic scale
from bronze) - would be most desireable and nearly indistructable.]

[ebb]

Just want to add this:
There are problems with the rudder I remember.
Corrosion, galvanic action?, at the waterline IN the rudder tube. Manual, I think.

And I think there was something similar happening to the bolts holding the pieces together in the lower half of the mahogany rudder, from some posts in the past. The ones which pass thru the shaft.

Sacrificial zincs obviously play a big part in protecting the shoe and rudder. Has anybody a system that seems particularly efficient?

IE zinc on or near the shoe. Zinc on the rudder. Are they wired? Are they interconnected. Are they independant of thru hulls ETC ETC.

[Bill]

On #76 we use a teardrop shaped zinc attached to the shoe. That protects the shoe and the lower rudder shaft. Another zinc is attached to the upper rudder shaft via half a jumper cable - one end has the zinc and goes into the water. The other end with the battery clamp grips the bolts holding the tiller head fitting to the upper rudder shaft. Both zincs last about four years.

[mrgnstrn]

Ebb-
We must see pictures or a sketch of your rudder. I just cannot picture it.

Bill-
the teardrop anode: is it thru bolted in place of one of the broze nails/rivets that holds the shoe in place? is there one on both sides of the shoe (port and stbd)?

[Bill]

We have some early photos of Ebb's rudder design. I'll post them after I find them.

The zinc is not through bolted to the shoe, only fastened with machine screws using a couple of holes drilled on one side.

[Bill]

Photos of Ebb's new rudder mockup can be found on the Gallery forum in Ebb's Photo Gallery thread.

[mrgnstrn]

I got a call from my yard's carpenter about my rudder.

He wanted to do the following:
1. replace the two bronze shafts with a single stainless (or bronze) shaft with a plate welded edgewise along the length.
2. laminate two pieces of marine plywood on either side of the plate and shape the rudder from that.
3. coat the whole thing with a few layers of fiberglass.

He claims that stainless up against the bronze shoe is not an electrolytic problem. I have my doubts.
He also (after some nudging from me) realized that the install would include lifting the boat about 5' to put in this massive long rudder assembly.

I told him to write up the estimate, but not start the work. I don't think i will like the result (neither the price, nor the methods).

So, has anybody ever crafted an exact mahogany replacement?
I found a place that has 2x12 honduran mahogany to piece together like the orginal.
Does anybody know what the drift pins (between two panels) were made of? Were they mahogany drift pins or bronze. I am not talking about the bolts/screws that come from the rudder stock, but the pins between two panels.

much gras-

[ebb]

IMCO here.
338 had a fiberglass rudder with s.s. shaft. It obviously had been on the boat awhile.
I had to recast the rudder shoe (there is pulenty on That here! Type yer favorite werds into the 'search' option.) because there was galvanic corrosion on the side of the shoe the zinc was on. The side of the shoe was also crusted with zinc. So I don't what happened. It is entirely possible that the damage to the shoe occured befor the substitute rudder had been installed. I assumed it was the two different metals.

Merely conjecture: but if Bristol Bronze, anyway, says the original rudder shaft was manganese bronze, my assumption is that the bolts or rod going thru the shaft holding the planks together were the more common silicon. Don't know that Pearson would have used manganese rod. Right? If there is a corrosion problem at the bolt and shaft juncture, it must be pretty unusual, as the bronze alloys are together on the galvanic scale.

Others vocal on the site here have made rudders different from the original. IMHO if you have to depend on somebody else to make the rudder I would go as near as you can to the original design. No epoxy, no glass. Since it sounds like you have the OB version, a straight thru version of the shaft would make for a very strong rudder. After you give the carpenter the plans from the Manual I would ask to see a full scale drawing on mockup showing where the fastenings will go. If all-thread is decided on I certainly would thread it into the shaft. You'ld have the machinist do the threading in the shaft to match the rod.

It is important that the keyway for the tiller head is exactly on line with the rudder blade. I found an (Edson, I think) tiller head that had the keyway on the opposite side of the original. So I had the machinist mill keyways fore and aft on the top of the shaft.

The original rudder is still active on many A/Cs. Maybe no upgrade is needed for the traditionalist. Yes, use Honduras mahogany or Burmese teak.

[mrgnstrn]

I like your idea of threading the bolts directly into the shaft.

We'll see if i can convince the carpenter to make a new one just like the old. my guess that my financier (the wife) will just want the cheapest method.

[ebb]

Capt Mrgnstrn,
The guy has to layout all the pieces befor putting the rudder together. All the measurements will be known, some people might be more comfortable using rod (more metal for your buck) and threading the ends only.

Depending on the size of the rod, The threaded hole in the shaft could be blind, not all the way thru the shaft. Maybe this is a way of getting more protection for the fastening from the water. using 5200 to get a seal where the wood meets the metal shaft.

I'm just noodling here, it would be great if there was feedback.

In thinking about this 'natural' rudder: you wouldn't glue the pieces together if you had more than one plank - so you have to allow for the swelling of the wood - how much swelling do you allow for? Swelling could create a bow in the blade. Most of the wood rudders I casually see in the yard have this problem. It is my considered opinion (and I have been called on this) that to help avoid the bowing you make the rudder from pieces where you have reversed the grain. If it's cut from one narrow plank you flip the faces when laying out.

But as usual, contradicting myself:
You could 5200 the edges together as a kind of gasket that could possibly give against the clamping of the bolts and swelling of the wood. In other words: I might glue the pieces with say a fat 1/8" gasket of 5200 and not cinch it up with the nuts until it was set. There may be enough give in the rudder as a unit to allow swelling without getting the curve. And 5200 is still keeping the whole kabootle nicely together? Then you grind and sand the blade to final shape.
Just an idea. But this could be a way of isolating the blade fastenings from possible galvanic action.

Question authority (& tradition!):cool:

[commanderpete]

Here is an example of a replacement rudder. This one came off of Commander # 199. Its covered with bottom paint and dried slime, but otherwise in reasonably good condition.

[commanderpete]

I don't have any construction details. It was made about 20-25 years ago. I'm not even too sure how the original rudder was lost. I remember hearing stories of a violent grounding in the Fire Island Inlet.

The rudder is made up of two big slabs of wood. I filled the seperation between the boards with sealant at one point, which probably only made the boards seperate some more.

[commanderpete]

Five long pins secure the wood to the shaft.

[commanderpete]

The pins go right through the rudder shaft, which is straight, and solid bronze.

There's a notch at the top.

[commanderpete]

A pin is formed at the bottom

[Tony G]

Good Night!!! Can you really lift that rudder by yourself? That's some serious woodage C'Pete.
What do your neighbours think when you bring 'that, that thing' home with you?;)

[ebb]

Capt Cpete,
Whomever made your 'replacement' two decades ago made an exact copy. Looks like it's right out of the Manual.

Looking in from the moniter here at the photos, the wood shows a remarkable lack of cracking at the top and bottom, it could be teak in there.

That separation of the planks reminds me of a trick I was once shown. It is that just befor you put the edge to edge planks together for the last time, you take the block plane and put a very slight concave in the edges. Land carpenters do the same with plank tables that are glued. The idea is to relieve the pressure from the extra swelling in the endgrain. Seems backwards, doesn't it?

A good part of the trailing edge of the rudder could be carved thinner if a narrow piece was glued to the outer plank over the bolts and nuts. In other words another straight piece would be glued on over the boltholes. Just have to be careful when carving to avoid the oversize washer holes. Think this might work? Have to really have Faith in the glue!

[Jim Wiles]

CPete, That is a mighty good looking rudder, and it is the exact one (design, straight through shaft) that I'm presently rounding up all of the items needed to build. Still haven't decided how I want to join the wood and shaft. Drilling the shaft really bugs me but I'll bet that it would last another 35 yrs.!

I am looking for a supply source for the 1 inch naval bronze rod; would appreciate any ideas as to a possible supplier!
Jim, Mon' Ke Ne #391

[Jim Wiles]

CPete,
Do you still have the Commander rudder? What I'm getting at is that I would love to have the actual length measurement of the one inch rudder shaft on the rudder that you photographed so very well. I'm laying in supplies to build my new rudder in the fall of 2004 follwing the sailing season and just prior us taking her back up to the great lakes.
I would sincerely appreciate receiving the measurement if it's not a problem.
Thanks so much, Jim

[tcoolidge]

Cmdrpete- The exact length of the shaft would be a very useful measurement for me too, for the same reasons. It is one of the few useful measurements that isn't in my manual so it might be nice to have it posted somewhere that can be easily located for future reference. It's seeming like more and more boats are coming of age where the information will be valuable. Length/depth/thickness of rudder would also be handy. Being able to build one without having to haul the boat to take measurements would make the project considerably cheaper.

Tom

[Hull376]

For what its worth (and that ain't much) here's a picture my rudder after preping the bottom for some coats of vinylester and then the bottom paint. I didn't put any plastic on the mahogany (left it au naturale). Its way dried out.

[commanderpete]

I'll take some measurements of that old barn door rudder.

Kent, your rudder looks good. I'm just curious because it doesnt have the two horizontal "straps"(?) on each side, spanning the boards.

A production modification?

[mrgnstrn]

Well, the yard got back to me.

stainless steel shaft, with a plate welded edgewise
+
marine plywood sandwiched betwen the plate
+
fiberglass wrapped around the whole thing
+
labor
+
lifting the boat 6' in the air for installation
=
$3000

So I said NO DICE. So now he is going to tell me how much to repair the rudder. A new repair may be years off now.

oh well.

[glissando]

If that ripoff estimate isn't inspiration enough for you to do whatever it takes to learn how to build a rudder yourself, then I guess nothing will!

Rudders are easy--and inexpensive. Even factoring in a new shaft (I hesitate to quote here because prices vary so widely depending on vendor and location and quality, but a new shaft on my Triton a few years ago--including a designed bend, welded ears, and milled boltholes--was about $300), you can build a brand-new rudder yourself for about 1/10 +/- of the cost you were quoted. Obviously, the yard doesn't really want your business--too small a job, apparently, so they figure if you go for the ripoff they can make some easy money.

I favor duplicating the original construction using solid mahogany boards. But there are other ways to do it too. Do whatever pleases you.

Not only do you get to save money, but you can learn new--and apparently very valuable--skills. The only hard part is getting over any mental block you may have about jumping into the project. Again: that quote should be more than enough reason to try!

Good luck.

[Theis]

I replaced my rudder with a single piece of mahogany for $750 a few years ago. It fit like a glove. Beautiful piece of woodwork. Hated to paint it. I then sealed the wood with a clear penetrating sealer. If you want the name of the woodworker, let me know.

In addition to the bolts that go through the shaft into the rudder, my old rudder had three or four rods that went into the rudder horizontally from the aft end. The rudder has worked fine, with no warpage or problem of any kind = and it is still beautiful.

Remember that the Triton shares the same rudder, so that might be another source for you.

$3,000? Ykes? That is almost as bad as the Marina that wanted $3,000 to paint my stripped spars. No deal.

[mrgnstrn]

It isn't that I don't have the guts to try to build my own rudder.
It is that I don't seem to have them time, what with redecorating our guest bedroom as a nursery, the list of other home projects.
But we'll see how things shape up in a few months.

[glissando]

The Triton rudder is definitely different than the one pictured above. Whether or not a rudder from a Triton could be used in place of the Ariel rudder is another question, but the shape is somewhat different--mostly at the top. Probably some minor modification would make it work if necessary, if one happened to be lying around.

As it happens, I have a spare Triton rudder here, from hull #100. It's warped and, frankly, pretty crappy, but if you're interested let me know. I have no use for it other than as a rough pattern.

[ebb]

In actuality the Triton rudder may be quite different in construction from the A/C. The few Triton's I've seen here are strapped rather than thru bolted. Haven't measured, but the aperture may be different, the machining reduction at the bottom of the shaft that goes into the shoe may be different, the angle of the keel/rudder may be different between the two hulls, leading to alterations in profile.

Would be good to know for the record what the actual similarities are.. And what you have to do to put a Triton rudderr on an A/C?

Making a rudder would not be too difficult if you started with an already machined shaft (and bent if you are inboard,) including whatever style bolt holes in the shaft for the blade.

I don't know of this Triton rudder is original: it had welded bronze straps bent around the shaft in a U-shape out onto the planks. Aside from the hydrodynamic problems with the straps being proud of the blade and the fastening heads, it seems this style would make it easy to replace the wood - you could almost do it with the rudder in the boat.
[This blade was very thin (about the width of the shaft: 1"), fatter wood and you'ld dap the straps in for a smoother finish. Either way, since the U-straps are right angle to the shaft, the wood would slip in or out pretty easy! I think it's a good idea.]

[Theis]

My understanding that the two rudders were either identical or substantially the same came from Rudy (whatever his last name was) who worked for Pearson and acquired the parts inventory from Pierson when they bit the dust. I do not vouch for it myself, since he told me he didn't have any Triton rudders either.

In regard to time, the concept of stripping a used boat is a real time burner - and all you wind up with are well used parts. It is not a good deal if time is in short supply - and I speak from experience in stripping the parts off my Ariel (including the rudder).

[marymandara]

Triton Rudder is WAAAAYYYYY Different. Way bigger, different shape, doesn't hang on the boat the same.

Just make a new one. Honest.

[commanderpete]

Here's some measurements of that replacement rudder. At the shaft, the wood is rounded out and slightly overlaps the shaft. I measured the width of the rudder from the outside of the shaft.

The original rudder on Commander # 200 is slightly shorter (42 1/2) and wider (18) than this rudder.

The shaft is milled out the same as the plan in the Manual: key at top (2 x 1/4) and pin at bottom (3/4 x 3/4).

There's always some variation between boats, so I would double-check these measurements against the rudder you have.

[Theis]

Pete:

How many rods do you show through your rudder (Other than the screws mounting the rudder to the shaft? Do the drawings reflect the actual number?

[Jim Wiles]

CPete,
Thanks so much for taking your time to measure your extra rudder! These measurements will be worth a million bucks to me since I can lay in supplies and make sure that I order enough of everything so that when I bring #391 back to my home in the fall of 2004 I can get on with the job. I can already have the blade finished, and the 1" bronze ready to cut to the exact length, etc.
Best wishes and Happy Holidays!
Jim

[Bogle]

The three-piece (plank) design is what commander #92 has. That will be my scheme for replacement this winter, duplicating as closely as possible the original design.

I have inquired to the wooden boat forum regarding wood species, and Honduran mahogany seems to be the best compromise between the original "phillipine" (a little less expensive than Hoduran) and the best material for a rudder, east indian teak.

The thread is at:

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008475

More after the new year when I get started...

[Theis]

Last year, as I recall, there was interesting informationon this forum submitted by Mike Goodwin about woods related to cockpit coamings, which included an explanation of the difference between Honduran and Phillipine Mahogany (the latter being not a mahogany, but a genre of cedar, as I recall). It might be interesting for you review that (Dec. 2, 2002)

[commanderpete]

Theis,

Those 5 rods go right through both pieces of wood and through the shaft. A rough outline of their placement is below.

Seems a robust construction method. However, as ebb noted, this style doesn't have a tapered trailing edge. You would need to create that somehow if you wanted it.

I came across an article on rudders. A bit too technical for me

http://www.boat-links.com/foils.html

[Theis]

I have to tell you why your information is so interesting. You would think that Pearson had a routine - a system for making their rudders, but it seems to wander all over the lot.

When I mentioned to Bill that there were rods through Solsken's rudder, he asserted, unequivocally, that Pearson never put rods through their rudders and that had to have been done by one of the previous owners (in my case there was only one previous owner, and he didn't do it). So the issue was on the table, and I opined that folding my tent to better authority was the appropriate response.

So now you come with five rods - and the rods go right through the shaft (my rods do not - and there are only three of them as I recall).

I do have three bolts (I think that is correct) in addition to the rods that extend through the shaft into the rudder, and one screw - each extending to about the middle of the rudder (the nut and washer are embedded in a cut out in the wood rudder.

Like others, my original rudder was made of three pieces - which, over time separated. The outside piece was largely held on by the rods because the bolts did not extend into it.

So - the point is that there appears to have been considerable variation in the way these rudders were assembled. For reference, Solsken in #82 built at the end of 1982 - or so I have been led to believe.

[Bogle]

Pete's rudder diagrams are of his REPLACEMENT rudder, not an original. Correct me if I am wrong. They did not follow the original design in number of planks or fastener types and locations. See the diagram in the manual which does not show the drift pins.

The drift pins (rods) are a common feature of these traditional plank rudders. Mine has three and they do not go through the rudder shaft.

[commanderpete]

The drawing in the Manual shows the original rudder was attached with (3) 6" bolts and (3) 5" wood screws. It also says the rudder is "solid mahogany."

I've only seen rudders that had the three planks. The original rudder on my Commander 200 looks about the same as Dave Bogle's. Here's a pic, taken just after haulout.

[commanderpete]

You see those horizontal slats, which don't appear on some rudders, like Kent's

[Theis]

I was looking for those horizontal slats, but assume CPete took the picture at an angle, and, if rotated to be viewed properly, the bow facing toward the sky, the spaces between the slats would be horizontal. I assume CPete that such is what you were referring to when referring to horizontal slats. Right?

My original rudder looked similar to CPete's, and, like it, the slats had separated/shrunk (not good). The bolts went through to the center of the center slat as I recall. The propeller insert (for the outboard version) was held in place by a couple small angular screws from the wood rudder to the wood insert.

It might be interesting to associate a year with the boats we are referencing so we could get a take on if, and the extent to which the design changed over time.

[Jim Wiles]

As I have said in previous rudder related threads, I'm getting all of the materials together so that I can really get to work next fall and build a new rudder.
Things a really falling into place pretty well. I was really considering "Jamestown Distributors" for the 1" rod except that it is silicone bronze. This past week I found another supplier near Chicago called "Copper and Brass Sales" in Schaumburg, Il. phone: 800-926-2600. They have true "464 Naval Bronze rod" and it is $50.00 cheaper than J.D. for the approx. 6 foot length that we need for a Ariel shaft, or $148.43 for 6 foot of 1". They also have many other rod sizes and I think I'm going to use their 5/16 " naval rod from blind holes through the planks. Just thought I'd pass this info along.
__________________________________________________ __
I still am looking for companies which sell Hondouran Mahogany if anyone knows of any. Jim_______________________________________________ ___

[Theis]

Jim:

There are two places you might want to look at. One is Kettle Morain Hardwoods - with a place on 94 just south of Milwaukee (Racine area) and one just north of Milwaukee. The town is Caledonia and the phone is 835-9212 (Don't know the area code but it might be 262). They are very helpful - good people - and they like sailors.

There is/was a place in Bedford Park, just south of Chicago, that handles specialty woods. I used to deal with them but now have found the first place, closer to home.

[Greg]

Jim,

You might try Pekin Hardwoods S. Main St in Bloomington. Their yard is just south of Pekin, but they have the retail store in Bloomington and can get most anything you need. Nice folks there...just don't ask for marine ply, unless you like blank looks.

[ebb]

Probably should keep my mouth shut.

Naval bronze is naval brass and can have as much as 40% zinc to 59% copper, with a bit of tin as a binder. Better ask for the alloy numbers from the supplier. And I would get the alloys closer together on the galvanic scale viz the shoe/shaft and aft thruhulls. But then that's just my opinion.

[Jim Wiles]

Theis, Greg, and Ebb;
Thanks to all of you for the help and ideas onthe wood suppliers and the bronze! Bloomington is close to me so I'll run up and have a look. I'll write or call Kettle Morain and the Caledonia Co. and Pekin.
Ebb, you're input is valued, I appreciate your thoughts and I will take heed! I only want to do this rudder once and as correct as possible. I will be wary since I know they will sell you anything just to make the sale. Such are the times in which we live! I have a good sailor friend that is a metallurgist so I'll get the assay and run it by him.
Jim

[Theis]

Jim:

Kettle Morrain Hardwoods is in Caledonia, WI. There is no Caledonia company that I am aware of. Good Luck!

[ebb]

Thanks Capt Jim,
Pearson didn't get it too wrong in the beginning. The class here went through this and discovered that manganese bronze was used for nearly all the cast fittings and the shaft. The stuff is expensive, but that is relative. The dynamic shaft/shoe combo lasted nigh onto 40 years until we came along to refurbish.

Have to amend this. So I looked it up:
manganese b....... Naval brass ......... Everdur
58.5 copper.........60 copper.......... 98.25 copper
39.25 zinc...........39.25 zinc..............0
1 tin..................75 tin...................0
.25 manganese.... 0..........................25
1 iron..................0.........................0
0.........................0....................... ..1.50 silicon

Tensile strength psi of rod.: Hard and soft:

m.b. 45,000 - 30,000. n.b. 63,000 - 56.000. Ev 70.000 - 40.000.

Looks like manganese and naval are just about the same. Well, alloying is still a mystery to me. I went with Everdur. Awhile ago I had an animated discussion with Roger at Bristol Bronze. He stongly supported his highly alloyed manganese, which. he said, Bristol had originally supplied Pearson for the A/Cs, including the shaft.:o

[Jim Wiles]

Ebb, Thanks for the comparative assay on manganese and naval; boy they really are close; are you saying that Bristol Bronze has manganese rod in the sizes that we need: One Inch and 5/16's?
Theis, Thanks so much for the corrected address on Kettle Morain.
Jim

[tcoolidge]

This should be filed somewhere readily available by anyone contemplating rebuilding the ruddershoe or shaft. It will be useful before you are done. I'm making it an appendix to the manual and giving a copy to my mold maker. Thanks for the info and effort.
A while ago I did some searches for manganese bronze and naval bronze and turned up a couple sites that seemed to have rod in every size and alloy known to man so anyone looking for rod could consider that route. I'm waiting until I know the exact alloy of the new shoe and then matching that
for the ruddershaft and drift pins.

Tom

[Theis]

Ebb

That is great information. Thanks. But you choosed Everdur, Roger prefers Manganese Bronze, and I assume the reason for the name Naval Brass is because it is for the Navy (as contrasted with an area of the body).

Your information raises the questions Why did you choose Ererdur, Why does the Navy prefer Naval Brass, and why does Roger prefer Manganese Bronze? I understand hardness is one reason.

What about the corrosion element/electrolysis of the compounds? Is it that one is a new and improved version of an earlier type? Can they all be machined by the average machinist? What about cost? As a point of reference, last year we discussed electrolysis and the need to have multiple anodes. Is there a linkage between electrolysis/anodes and manganese bronze - whereas corrosion is less of a problem with the other two compounds?

As for the mystery of compounds and mixtures, it is truly wondrous how a little of this or a little of that can change the properties of something - like adding a teaspoon of cayenne peppers to a bowl of otherwise edible spaghetti.

[ebb]

Manganese bronze rod is available in all sizes. If you are going to make a traditional rudder, I would match the internal rods. too. The problem is getting the alloy only in the length you need, because it is sold in 6 and 12 foot lenghs. or however the supplier deals it from the foundry. [I have a couple of two foot pieces of 1" Everdur left over from my ruddershaft adventure that cost the price of gold, are two precious to get rid of, are too short to do anything with.]

I went with Everdur because I had already cast 338s new shoe in silicon.
I had reasoned with self that silicon is commonly available and that it was likely that any bronze in the water would be silicone.

I then found that B.B. would do castings to patterns I made.. Very cool. Roger is, IMCO, committed to manganese for static load fittings. My discussion with him, which was 95% listening, about my underwater choice in bronze, was when he came up with that manganese would last 100 years but silicon only 50. Bristol has made all the highend jewelry for all the great highend yachts forever. And that Bristol will suffer a fool like me makes Roger close to god. But m.b. over time disintergrates in modern salt water. I think we two ended with a stalemate.

I'm a 'doubting thomas.' There is no doubt that in water fittings on the A/Cs have a problem (in salt water and in marinas..) My reasoning is simple: there isn't enough other ingredients in silicon bronze to leach out and crumble the fitting. Which has happened with our boats, right? Manganese is the best bronze alloy for fittings under load above the waterline.

B.B. might be a source for m. rod. I think his prices are highend but fair. I would check local suppliers.

Bristol Bronze is very committed to resupplying his firms original fittings that Pearson used. But the original molds got lost and a pattern maker has not appeared to make authentic copys. If 338's shoe mold is succesful I'll donate it to the ACA or give it to Roger. [by the way for the nth time - Bristol also has a beefed up version of the 338's stem fitting (in m.b.) that I know he has sold to one Triton owner who was happy with it. I don't know how much. He cosiders the molds you send him as 'public domain.'

[tcoolidge]

I think the crucial observation is that no matter which alloy is chosen it will in all likelihood outlast the chooser. I've wondered if Pearson was as concerned as we have become. My guess is they called for naval bronze because that is what was most readily available at the time and it had been proven to work for centuries. But I've also found that naval bronze means different things to different people and wouldn't be surprised if Pearson left the mixture to the foundry. In the early 1960's the simplest solution would probably have been the most likely and using special alloys that weren't absolutely neccessary would have been unlikely.


Tom

[Theis]

Good information. Thanks. You know, after everthing is taken into account, fresh water sailing is so easy - all we have to do is worry about ice, sleet, snow, shallow water and howlers. None of this corrosion stuff (Unless your boat is wintered next to a chemical factory on the south side of Chicago) and hurricane intimidation.

[Brendan Watson]

I rebuilt my Commander rudder useing the original shafts. A blow
by blow account can be found in the archives in Jim Wiles-
"Let's talk rudders" thread. I built this trouble free(6 years and counting)
rudder for about three hundred dollars and a lot of head scratching,
without having to raise the boat. Check it out.
Cheers,B.
Commander#215

[sailshak]

On Hustler (Ariel #223), we replaced the rudder 2 times. The first time, we duplicated the original. We lost that rudder in medium air with the chute up. The second replacement was made from aluminum (may have been stainless-my brother-in-law handled getting it done) with the shaft and rudder welded together. This was done in 1994-1995 and is still holding together nicely. Designed the rudder to be narrower, not as tall, but a good 3 inches longer. Made the boat handle much better and took a lot of weight out of the back of the boat.

[Jim Wiles]

Has anyone found a supplier for a exact replacement rudder head fitting?
I think that I have wear in the keyway that I would like to eliminate this season with the old rudder and defintely next season with the new rudder.
Jim

[Bill]

That's one of those parts for which Rostand has the pattern. Still waiting for the patterns to be donated . . .

Keyway can be shimmed with paper thin brass sheet.

[Jim Wiles]

Bill, My appologies, I should have remembered the posting speaking to the subject of Rostand.
The thin brass sheeting is a good idea to shim with. I'll keep that in mind. Also, a good source for that kind of thing ( thin brass, stainless, etc.) is model railroad scratchbuilding shops!
Another thing that I'm going to do is to mic both sides of my keyway; one side or the other could have worn out of tolerance and what I'm thinking of having done is to have some key stock specially machined to the measurements.
Thanks, Jim

[marymandara]

Of course, I cannot find the part laying around anywhere right now (and I did look a bit recently)...but I found a replacement head fitting for another guy's Triton in one of the area seajunk stores not too long ago...the part was cosmetically a bit different, but it worked fine on his boat. These parts were a pretty common size for the type of rudder setup, which was pretty common once upon a time. Might look around that way, too--I think it was less than 50 bucks for a real nice rudder head and the tiller fork to go with it.

Dave

[Jim Wiles]

Dave,
Thanks for the tip on the reclamation stores. I'll make a mental note of that. There are three or so of these stores that I have visited in the past in Michigan, Fla., Alabama. Aa I recall I did have good luck there!
Jim

[Jim Wiles]

To Everyone interested in rudders,
We finally have all of our rudder materials and we are actually building a RUDDER! Really though, everything was fairly easy to find, was shipped fast, I drove after the mahogany, and really not badly priced. The bronze is really beautiful, the wood is really dense, solid and smells really good.
Will keep you posted and possibly post some pics.
Jim

[Jim Wiles]

The rudder is looking great. I had a custom milling company actually do the wooden rudder blades ( I made two for $190.)
They really fit the 1" shaft like a glove. Will post some pics soon
I took them with me to our marina to show my friends and they fell in love with them.

One question for the group: quite a few of my friends thought that I should somehow seal the new mahogany. What do you all think?
Thanks,
Jim

[Theis]

Absolutely you should seal it and seal it and seal it. Apply VERY liberally. The mahogany takes it like a sponge. Both Pettit and Interlux make a clear sealer tha soaks in. It is easy to apply and soaks right in. Use the sealer, not just a thinned down varnish.

Sealing is particularly true in fresh water, as I recall being told, because Mahogany does not have the resistance to rot as it does in salt water. Also, you don't want the additional weight of the waterlogged rudder draging down the stern.

[mrgnstrn]

Jim: what style of rudder did you go for? the original heart shaped, or the "Constellation" style shown in the lines in phantom?

Also, what method of attachment are you using? welded plate along the back of the shaft or the original edge-bolted style?

much grass.

[Bogle]

Hey, I have posted the question of coatings at

http://www.boatbuilding.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=11364

My understanding of bouyancy of the rudder is that neutral bouyancy - watterlogged wood - is best. Therefore, I was not considering any coating other than the porous bottom paint.

The participants at the above forum were very helpful and knowledgeable regarding wood boat construction and my previous posting regarding species was invaluable.

http://media5.hypernet.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=008475

Now I just have to find the weekday-time to get to Condon's in White Plains to pick out the suitably-grained plank. Though they will ship, they would not guarantee they would be able to pick the "right" grain for my demanding project.

[Jim Wiles]

Hi everyone and thanks so much for your input. I built the original rudder shape which I have used for 25 years. We are using the continuous shaft from head to shoe and drilling 1/2" blind holes in shaft for five 3/8" bronze rods which will exit aft rudder. Should be very stout. Rods will be tig tacked to shaft following being screwed into the holes so that they cannot loosen. Lock nuts and suitable sized washers will be used on the rod ends. Will fair the aft rudder edge following the first season of immersion. Should fair very nicely.
Thanks for the web site dealing with toseal or not to seal.
Hope to shoot some digital pics today to post here.
Jim

p.s. Commanderpete's drawing and measurements of his old Commander rudder were right on the mark and helped me a great deal. I thank him so much for his time and effort.
I measured my bronze rudder shaft with a fish tape vicegripped to the top of the shaft and through the rudder tube and measured to the top of the bearing surface on the rudder shoe, and certainly added the length of the boss to the total.

[tcoolidge]

Finally got everything together and got the new rudder/shaft/shoe on the boat. Everything fit, it works wonderfully and I'm a happy camper.
Some observations from the project
1) Also had some keel heel disintegration once I got the old shoe off. Not as bad as Bill Hoover's but of the four ruddershoe bolts only two were anchored in something solid. Kind of scary and you can't tell unless you take the ruddershoe off. Might be worth considering as a potential maintenance problem.
2) The rudder shoe Fred Pomeranz built fit beautifully. It's a little wide at the front end (about 1/8" on either side on the front edge) but that was easy to fair out. Could also have ground down the excess without affecting the strength of the casting. It's substantial, considerably more so than what was on there.
3) The old shoe was silicone bronze. Having seen what happens to silicone bronze over time, I'm glad I went with manganese. The old shoe and shaft were so worn that the rudder shaft/shoe fitting was totally deformed. I also found that although the metal had a nice bronze color when I scraped it when I hit it with a hammer while driving the pins out it fractured because the metal was so crystallized. Once I had it off I could flex the sides of the shoe inward just by squeezing. Not my idea of solid. I'm also relatively certain the old shoe was not original. It had been amatuerishly faired with a filler that was easy to remove and when it was out it was easy to see where the original ruddershoe had been and much to my delight the new shoe fit there almost perfectly.
4) I went with a solid manganese shaft with five drift pins to attach the rudder to and this baby is also substantial. There is something to be said for knowing your rudder is a bit overbuilt. (if you're not a racer) Used a slightly different technique for the rudder boards- instead of using 2 2X10 mahogany planks I used 1X10's and face epoxied (and screwed) them together after I routed grooves in both sides to fit the drift pins. Didn't have the drilling equipment to drill true, accurate holes in the 2X and doing it this way worked well. Also figured that having opposing grains on either side would help lessen the tendency to warp. Will see how it worked next haulout.

After I got it together I took the boat for a spin around the harbor to make sure it worked then took off the next day for a three week trip up the east coast of Vancouver Island. Probably wasn't the smartest thing to take off with an untested rudder but I felt confident, knowing how much more sound the rudder assembly was than it had been, and I didn't have any problems, and ran into some serious wind and waves along the way. I must say it's a lot more fun using a rudder than installing one.

My thanks to everyone who offered help, advice, observations through the project. Your input was invaluable and it wouldn't have come out as well without it.

Happy sailing,
Tom
Tom

[ebb]

Congratulations Tom Tom,
Let me say this:
The first important thing is to get all your bronzes the same alloy.
I believe that will go a long way to keep corrosion at bay yOU HAVE DONE THAT WITH YOUR SHAFT AND SHOE..

The second important thing is that there is nothing wrong with silicon bronze, for the same reason as above. In fact there is LESS to leach out, in a hot marina say, than manganese. Besides I chose silicone. And a good reason for that is: the other components in the rudder: allthread. rod and bolts, even thruhulls are impossible to find in manganese.

Third, as you state in your post your FORMER bronze shoe was of an alloy that disintegrated, AND readers should respond to your graphic detail of the rudder shoe's FINAL DEMISE!

I don't believe you can assume the former DFO's rudder shoe was SILICON BRONZE! WHY do you think so???
IMCO the shoe was cast in NAVAL BRONZE, which is actually brass, which has enuf zinc in it to be a back up battery. What you describe is major dezincing, which could NOT happen to silicon bronze. Never use naval bronze. Simple statement. It is the truth.

In fact I think what you have witnessed here is an empiracal example of the WRONG alloy to use in a the Ariel rudder shoe, especialy if you have chosen a dissimular alloy for your rudder shaft.

Now, of course you have silicon bronze hiding in the blade of your restoration......we shall see, we shall see. Manganese is NOT the more noble bronze here! Silicon is! Even WINIARSKI can't deny that. Did you use m. bronze for the pins?
On 388 I used all s. bronze. Yet I got signs of a reaction when captured water passed thru the laminated the shoe is attached to and out a couple of the holes the pins were peened over on.

Manganese bronze is actually a brass. Some of these alloys have as much as 40% zinc in them. They are rated as corrosion resistant. As we know the right combination of unpredictable galvanic circumstances and the cookie crumbles. The right combination may never befall you. Bristol Bronze said they supplied the original Pearson Ariels with manganese shaft and shoe. AND THEY LASTED AS LONG AS THEY DID.
Your former disintegrated could very well have been manganese bronze.
Assume is the mother of all f...ups!

[tcoolidge]

Ebb,
I think you are probably right about the old shoe being naval, not silicone bronze. Electrolysis wise it makes more sense and the old shoe was definitely missing some molecules of something. That being said, I'd still go with manganese. It has a higher tensile strength and is considerably harder and after seeing the wear the old shaft put into the shoe I like the idea of a harder bearing surface. As to having silicone bronze inside the blade, the only silicone I used were the nuts, which are now encased in an inch of epoxy and pretty well isolated. As you so accurately point out, manganese bronze nuts and other parts don't exist so I had to use silicone. The rods are manganese bronze cut to length and threaded on both ends and the pins for mounting the shoe are manganese rod peened and ground off so it's all pretty much the same alloy, which is the key, regardless of which you choose. And even with matching alloys I've become a big believer in zincs.

Tom

[george copeland]

I know a little bit about rudders--at least enough to point me toward the right marina bar with the right woman in tow. Whether she is of a silicone construction or not is a matter of little import at best. But I do like 'em brassy. Whadda you two zinc?

[bakravitz]

I have a pearson commander (late 1960's) the old wooden rudder is finally dead.

I need help and information that will lead to a replacement.

Any thoughts


Bernard A. Kravitz
bakravit (A) comcast.net

[Al Lorman]

The rudder on my (alas) former Commander was simply a few pieces of mahogany glued/bolted together with appropriate holes for drift pins and attachments. If yours is still good enough to make a pattern and the metal pieces are intact, it is not a big job from a woodworking point of view. Or I guess you could use thickened epoxy and fiberglass and encapsulate the existing rudder.

As Bill always reminds us, using the search button will turn up more advice on a given subject than most people can assimilate in one sitting.

Happy New Year to all!

Al Lorman

[Bill]

Thanks Al ;)

[Tim61N]

I have decided that since my rudder is probably original, I'm just going to completely rebuild it, sticking pretty close to the original design, except I agree with EBB and have decided to use Silicone Bronze 655 throughout. The shoe is my only concern, perhaps I will use a zinc there or are there silicon bronze repros available? Or should I worry about it?
I got a quote from Alaska Metals in Seattle (I was a little put off by their misleading name) of $111 for a 6ft length of 1" rod, sounded like an OK price.
Also got a quote from Edensaw in Port Townsend for $6.73/bf for 4/4 Honduras Mahogany for the rudder itself.
Anyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers and/or sailing? I will be driving from Alaska to San Francisco in late March or early April.
I also may be willing to build an extra rudder if someone was interested. Its always more efficient to do multiples for this kind of thing to defray the cost of setup, tooling, etc.

[commanderpete]

Good price for 655 Bronze rod.

Took a quick look at onlinemetals.com ($160) and Mcmaster Carr ($188). Then you have shipping...

By the way, Welcome Aboard

[commanderpete]

Couple of questions on the drift pins that go through the wood

Would you use threaded rod?

Instead of that, can you use solid bronze and cut threads in the end for the screws? What kind of tool does that?

How would the pins be secured to the rudder shaft. Just hammer the end that comes out the hole in the shaft? Weld it?

[ebb]

Howdy,
338's silicon bronze shoe was cast over in Richmond at California Castings.
From too many posts here you may have discovered that mine is oversize in that it follows the specs in the Manual. I don't know if the manganese b. rudder shoe available here on the site follows those specs. I understand the m.b. shoe has all the holes drilled and it's polished and ready to mount, and you can get your name on it, too, wow.

You can borrow my mold, which has the original motheaten one off 338 inside. (I straightened the sides which had been pulled in by bolts and filled in the corrosion with bondo, side holes too - and made the sides of the shoe a full 1/4") Unless you are particularly handy or have access to a machine shop, drilling the 3/4" hole for the shaft is a bit of a problem. Some would have to make an elaborate jig, while someone like Mike Goodwin for sure would probably do it behind his back. :D

[ebb]

Hey C'pete,
Use solid rod, fills the hole better. Threaded rod leaves spaces that would be hard to fill. Solid rod fills the bore hole exactly.
Easy to turn threads in copper
and why not tap the holes in the shaft for threaded rod/bolt also?

The hole would not have to go all the way thru.
The hole is essentially smaller not being a full size bore.
Threading the plank rods into a BLIND threaded hole has to be the cleanest, friendliest attachment method to the shaft. If you can keep the rod/bolt from going thru you will have less exposure to corrosion at that critical point - the wood of the rudder comes right up to the shaft in a 1/2-round dado and will beautifully cover that rod/bolt connection with bedding compound or rubber. No exposure there at that critical juncture if your alloys don't match exactly.:)

[Tim61N]

Ebb, Wow! That may be just the thing! My brother in Brownsville is a bit of an amatuer machinist and should be able to help me out there, I think he can do the work on the shaft as well. My specialty is the woodworking side. How much did they charge you to cast your shoe? Maybe I should have a few done for others who might want them in the future...
I'm thinking I will keep the bend design for 2 reasons 1.reduced stress where the bolts enter the shaft 2. Easier to get the rudder in/out without digging a trench. But I want to do away with the cutout and instead bore an angled hole for the bend. This should add some strength to the attachment. Any thoughts from those who have done a rudder rebuild?
On a slightly different note, when I was down last weekend I talked to Gene Roberts and he said there were improved tiller bearings & seals available, anyone know who to contact about these?

[Tim61N]

CP,
I was thinking about that topic, I will use solid rod of the same silicon bronze and either cut threads to screw rod into shaft or weld onto shaft directly. As added security I may pean the end of the rod onto the shaft. The threads are just cut with tap & die. I will ask my brother, the machinist about all this, he'll know better than I...

[Bill]

Tim, do "searches" on rudder shoe, rudder, rudder shaft, etc. and you will soon be up to speed on these subjects. A good bit of reading involved, but it will be worth the effort.

[ebb]

Bill's right. There's beaucoo stuff to wade thru, should do it, it's worth it. Stick to the traditional rudder building/repair threads. Explore this site here and you'll find Admiral Bill offers the shaft sleeve bearing at cost. This is the bearing that sits on top of the fiberglass rudder tube underneath the chrome cap.

The bend in the shaft, the two piece rudder shaft with the top part of the shaft bent, is the proper restoration rudder to make new. The upper shaft is bent to provide support for the upper part of the blade. This allows the blade to be cut away below to swing the prop for those boats with inboard engines. Evidently all rudders were built the same way, with the crooked shaft, but the blade was assembled without the cutout for OB models.

(338, an OB model with a well, had a hollow area glassed in where the corresponding gap in the keel for the prop would have been had it been an inboard.)

Many OB models have an "after market" single piece straight-thru shaft for their new blade, when a rebuild was needed. IMCO this is the easier design to make. All rudders are one piece and all one piece rudders will require that a hole be dug for removal - or the vessel to be lifted. The seemingly insignificant strap gudgeon is a very important part of the rudder system and has to be designed into any rebuild of any description.

[Tony G]

Anyone interested I would be willing to pick up extra supplies for you if you are along my route down south. Free shipping in exchange for beers
Tim, That's too generous! I looked on a map and, technically, we're south of your starting point. So... :D

This assoc. forum is a great tool for jobs like a rudder rebuild. It's like a mini-web with only the information you're looking for. There has been lots of different techniques and ideas discussed here and you should find answeres to any of your questions. Who knows, you might add a new twist to the picture yourself!

Like C'Pete noted, that's a good price for the Si Bronze bar. One other note, being it is a 1" bar you may want to go with 5/4 mahogany, it's a full inch thick. I know, I know, I go around and around with my finish carpenter friend all of the time about how they're all involved in a national conspiracy to rip-off the public a quarter inch at a time.

Thanks for bringing up the bearing and seals again, I knew I needed to order something. Tony G

[Tim61N]

Northern MN?? It think that would take a few extra beers! Brrr, you're weather is probably colder than mine!
I wasn't thinking quite straight on the Mahogany, I will need 6/4 or a little thicker and then I will taper it down toward the tail.
I've already spent several hours on this site reseaching the rudder issue, but it's a deep vein, every time I think I found all the info, I just dig a litter deeper and find some more treasure. The amount of info here is amazing!

[ebb]

Tony,
Right on!
You could even go to 1 1/2 (even easier to drill the long holes for the tie rods,) and beltsand the blade down to its final shape.
Never found anyone interested in explaining just what the shape of our 40year old blade is in terms of chords. All the blades are dead flat - the ones I've seen on Ariels and Tritons.

IMCO a better shape would be to start with the thickness of the keel where the shaft is, take the fullness back a bit and then work in a mild chord to the end of the blade. That would leave more meat over the bolts, too. The original 1" thick blade had to stay fat because of the internal fastening system. The ends I've seen are blunt and rounded.

Modern blades get very thin at the trailing edge. They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide. The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder. One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod. You would fasten thru the plate. Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side. Realy strong way of doing it, to me. Ideas?

Just fooling around. :D

[Tim61N]

Modern blades get very thin at the trailing edge. They seem to terminate in a hard edge 1/4" wide. The 1/4" wide flat is canted ie NOT square or symetrical to the sides - to avoid vortexing the water leaving the rudder. One could mimic this 'modern' advancement by fabricating a rudder from hydroply and welding 1/4" plate to the shaft instead of rod. You would fasten thru the plate. Or have larger holes in the plate thru which you would glass to the opposite side. Realy strong way of doing it, to me. Ideas?

Seems like that 1/4 plate would add a bit of weight back there? How about just a "cap" made of bronze or aluminum on the end of the rudder with a nice feather to reduce vortexing?
Tim

[mrgnstrn]

A few items:

For CommanderPete's question, a "die" cuts threads on the outside of a rod. A "Tap" cuts threads on the inside of a hole.

For a nice feathered edge, copper strip might work best: easy to bend into place, and has natural anti-fouling properties.

I just got done doing the major part of my rudder rebuild: tapered two sheets of plywood, cut them to the right outline of the rudder, used various sizes of cove bits to put half of each of the bolt holes in the wood, epoxied the bolts, wood and everything into one unit, and next up is putting a layer of fiberglass over the whole job.

I didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit. If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.

I had a new shaft made, like Ebb mentions, the single shaft method. I had a machine shop drill and countersink holes for the 6" long 3/8"diameter flathead machine screws which cost me a fortune.

Had I to do it all over again, I would not have used the bolts, and probably would have gone with the drill and tap method like Ebb mentions. Although if the hole and threads weren't all the way through the main rudder shaft, the machine shop might have problems running threads all the way to the bottom of the hole. or might just charge extra.

And for Future Reference of All: Schubert's Welding and Machine shop in Annapolis is a one-man-show, who almost exclusively works in custom everything, and any material he can get ahold of. His number can be found on yahoo phone books. He made my rudder shaft and did it perfectly. and for an honest price ($300 for material and machining)

[Tony G]

I didn't use a belt sander to taper it, but instead used a table saw with a carriage and a 3/4" wide dado bit. If anybody is interested in how that works, let me know.


Yeah, I'm always looking for new shop tricks
Tony G

[ebb]

Hey guys,
NO feathering. That creates the deadly vortex. Have to come to a sharp blunt end. Confusing.

But certainly I'm confused. The shop here has a French Inca table saw but we can't swing a 3/4" bit on it. So it's a dado set in there and I'ld like to know how you tapered that rudderblade of yors on the saw, yessir.. Now I can see propping the blade in a jig and sending it thru a belt sander a whole lot of times to get that taper. Very flat blade, for sure, would be the result.

How did you make the blade? With three 'planks' of plywood, as if they were mahogany? Thru drilled and all? That'ld be cool, you'ld have very little swelling or shrinking of the rudderblade.

Rod or allthread would have been a lot cheaper and easier to custom because you got both ends to work. And it's very easy to thread. You would have to go to a machine shop to tap holes. It's the lining up of things that a m. shop does so well, and that what we pay for.

Very high end carpenters known as 'mechanics' would do it all in the boat shed. And it is my visual experience that it is all in the jigs you make for the job.

As for flat plates versus rod/bolts. If the blade was tied together with frp, the plates welded off the shaft would not have to be very long. If the rudder was made of two fullsize pieces I can see the flat welded on pieces being short and a bit longer in the middle. They could have lightening holes drilled in them too. You know, whatever.

I have wondered if it's 'legal' to wrap the shaft with glass too? Go all the way round from one side t'other. Thats my plan. 655 takes epoxy well and it don't mind being covered, it ain't gonna corrode. The original rudder looks very elegant to me compared to all this plywood, glass and goop.

Make sure Alaska is selling you 655 silicon bronze. This is the legentary Everdur. It can be WELDED MIG.

[Tim61N]

Ebb,
From what I have gathered in my reading of rudder hydrodynamics, the reason for the doing away with feathering and keeping a flat blade would be to prevent the blade from stalling when turning. A feathered blade shape when turned at an angle would induce the fluid to create a vortex on the low pressure side of the blade, thus causing the blade to stall and the boat won't turn. If the boat were always moving in a straight line the ideal blade shape would taper off in an infinitely small edge to have the least amount of drag. I'm sure this is a very oversimplified understanding as there are a lot of variables involved, but makes sense to me.
Here is the spec sheet of the Silicon Bronze I got a quote for at Alaskan Metals it is a PDF, hope that comes across. I also included the spec sheet for Aluminum-Nickel Bronze which seems like another possible choice due to its strength and lack of zinc, but I have not seen much discussed here.

[ebb]

Tim,
Take your word on modern rudder design. The flat I'm refering to is the extreme back trailing edge (does not come to a knife edge), which should be flat and both its edges sharp. That is: this flat edge is more or less 90 degrees to the 'flat' of the rudder sides. It is only about 1/4" wide. You could only get this edge using modern composite materials.

The blade itself, the 'flat' part should have a chord to it, exactly the same each side. But what that chord is when upgrading traditionally flat, actually flat sided original factory Pearson rudders is open for discussion. Maybe it's not open to discussion.


Watch it with Alaska.
I personally advise Everdur 655 silicon bronze ONLY.
655 is the number. The correct number says it all.
Silicon bronze is a commonly available REAL bronze. Most available off-the-shelf screws, bolts, rod, bar, allthread, nuts, washers - if they say silicon bronze - are probably made from alloys close to 655. Not to aluminum nickle bronze, mango bronze, or petunia bronze.
There's nothing wrong with Monel if you're rich. Monel has no aluminum in it, last time I looked.

Not recomending anything, just saying what I did and why.
When ordering rod and bar you have to order by number - and sometimes by hardness.

Everdur 655 is the rolls royce of silicon bronzes, it is a specific controlled formula. We're really lucky to have it and regular silicon bronze availabe to us serfs. All the best wood boats of the past are fastened with it. To me it represents aromatic pipe tobacco, cuban cigars, scotch, leather, oakum, served rigging, highend varnished carpentry, and money. So it's prejudice on my part. And I don't smoke. I still think it is the best material, after much discussion here, for the rudder system on the A/C. Each to his own!!! :eek:

[mrgnstrn]

ok...a pictoral with commentary:

First, my representation of plywood as seen from the end-grain side.

[mrgnstrn]

next, put the widest set of dado blades into your tablesaw.
the one at the woodshop i go to is just shy of 3/4"
you also need a "carriage" for it. This is like a wide, shallow, open top box that has the correct hardware to slide in the grooves of the tablesaw.

This will allow you to prop up one edge of the plywood. you want to prop up the end that will be the thick part of the taper.
The black line in my drawing is the like the top of the carriage, or alternatively, the top of the tablesaw.
The red line is the cut line.
I should have put an arrow to tell the story better, but the plywood, the block propping up the edge, all move relative to the blade.

Now, this basically puts a groove only as wide as the dado, so shift the plywood ~1/2 inch into or out of the page, and run it though again. Repeat many times. Many many many times. Figure for a 48" long board, 1/2" at a time, with a few thrown in for giggles, ~100 passes. But really, once my jig was set up, ~10 minutes for the whole 24"x48" piece of plywood.

Now make two of these (you need will want to sandwich them together).

[mrgnstrn]

now you have one of these:

[mrgnstrn]

so, take this piece of plywood and cut out the profile of the rudder:

The shaded portion is the part you keep.

[mrgnstrn]

So, now put some bolt holes in....well half of each hole:
Use an appropriate sized cove bit (shown), and put a cove into each of the two halves. how you line up the two cuts is up to you. i made a few jigs to handle it. and lots of marks on each half to line everything up.

then you put the two halves together, and voile, perfectly lined up bolt-holes, down the centerline of the rudder.

[mrgnstrn]

ok, so there you have my method.

a few more points on the table saw method:


propping up one end works well, until you have make a number of cuts, like ~1/3 of the length. you can tell that the right side of my diagram has support before the cut, and the height of the thing you prop it with says the same after you make the cut, because the right side really doesn't get cut.

but the left side of my diagram needs to be propped after it is cut, because it isn't setting on the table saw anymore. So this is easy, just make sure to support the thin part of the board after you have cut it.

If more diagrams are necessary, just let me know.....

[epiphany]

All -

Thanks for this thread, am learning much. :)

[ebb]

Thanks Capt mrgnstrm,
Tahell with theory - this is the real stuff! Thanks from all of us. Methods and methodology forever!

And with plywood one would not use a beltsander to shape a completed plywood rudder (as I wrote earlier :o ) because you want to keep the veneers intact. With mrngster's method the carved sides are the ones that are glued together face to face keeping the full veneers on the outside, making for a stronger unit.

Now I would like to see recorded here for prosterity a series of photos showing this alternative rudder being assembled. A series like this does not exist anywhere on the web or in a book that I know about.

And as folks who have not done it befor will say, there is nothing obvious about the steps or the process.

The tapering of the panels can also be done simularly with a router (from the top) - messier than the table saw method.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::
The conundrum:

I believe a blade built in modern times should have some foil shape, more wing shape, some live curve to the surfaces, any opinions? Any naval architects in the crowd? Tried to explain earlier: when you start at the shaft fatter than the shaft with the wood - and bring that same dimension you started with further aft and then gently curve the sides to the tip of the blade - you'ld have a stronger rudder with longer bolts if desired. More wood.

And if curved correctly the rudder would then be able to generate lift. Rather than providing resistance when changing course and kind of slewing the boat around. IE, the curved blade uses both sides continuously to do its work - and the slab sided blade gets the boat to change course by sticking the wood out to halt that side , while the free side gets to continue on round.

Putting it bluntly:
Really wondering if adding a recognized modern chord shape to our rudder surface would get the A/Cs to sail any better, faster, or more responsive. Or should the blade be left dead slab flat as it came from Pearson? Or should it be the mrgnster taper??? :p

[Tim61N]

kp,
Great technique! Far less dust that using a belt sander and very accurate.


but the left side of my diagram needs to be propped after it is cut, because it isn't setting on the table saw anymore. So this is easy, just make sure to support the thin part of the board after you have cut it.
I suppose some long strips as thick as the height of the dado blade double stickied to the table would be a good prop.
What will you use to glue to two sides together, epoxy or something like resorcinol?
Tim

[willie]

Just thought i'd get in here~~
Several subjects to cover, first off i gotta brag about going sailing this weekend!! Starting the season early, as it's looking like there won't be enuf water this summer to make spit, let alone float my boat. Pretty dry winter here in Oregon. So had a chance to go, weather was nice, had a bit of wind, so off we went. Awesome!

So on this rudder shaping/chord/lift making idea...which i think we covered somewhere before we had more experts come aboard....

I've heard it said the keel generates lift, by it's shape (chord?) like an airplane wing, or a sail. And possibly the rudder can be made to be a continuation of that shape, but i don't see how. My keel goes pretty straight back there. Of course it's been rebuilt, but i just continued the lines on back. Sure it tapers down at the rear, but not much. I don't see how making it with a chord will improve anything. A clean bottom, flush fittings, and no outboard hanging in the water to create drag and added weight in the stern will do so much more to improve performance than a wing shaped rudder. I can maintain steerage with my boat down to a snail crawl, and she coasts along forever. Anyway, just doing a little rambling here on what i think is more important. And i'm still struggling with the keel shape generating lift. I don't see how, with both sides being shaped the same!! On a wing or sail, you have the chord side, and the other flatter side, creating difference in pressure/air speed? I just can't see that on our keel. Yeah, it's nicely shaped to slice through the water, but lift? Come on someone, please explain!

On carving a new rudder, which i'll be doing when my rubber coverd mahogany finally gives out--or maybe the shaft will first--think i'll just use my stihl chainsaw. lol
Actually, here's a little work i did for a bit of nautical theme in the kitchen over the winter. Well, i did cheat and use a makita grinder w/sanding disc for the finish shape. Was going for an Airel when we started, ended up with something like a ketch!

Ya'll keep rebuilding, i'm going sailing! Thar is light at the end.... ;)

[mrgnstrn]

Tim:
Yes, thin strips stacked up as high as the dado blade is set would support the cut part of the plywood.
I found that 1/8" thick hardboard work wonderfully. Hard board is the same stuff as brown pegboard, but without the pegholes. And 1/8" is pretty good for most adjustments. after that 1/16" thick aluminum flat bar works well for any finer adjustment than that.

I used West epoxy to glue the two faces that I had cut together (cut face to cut face) so as to leave the unblemished faces outward. (of course, I went ahead and blemished the faces by putting 8 bronze screws on one of the faces to pull the two faces together enough for me to tighten down the machine screws/bolts and nut. oh well....)

Ebb:
Well, funny story about pictures of the process....there aren't any.
it was last saturday when my wife took my 1-year old son to a friend's house for a few hours (read: no parental responsibilities for a while, uniterupted). so there I am, outside on the back porch, preparing to mix epoxy, getting the vaccum bag ready, etc. and I thought to my self, "I should really take pictures". Then I saw the storm clouds moving. Well, I made a cursory round through the house looking for the camera, to no avail. But, it was now or never, so mixing epoxy and spreading and glueing took place before pictures. Luckily I got the epoxy down, the faces together, shaft on and tightened up, the vacuum bag over the whole thing and vacuum pump on before it started sprinkling.

by the way, vacuum bagging is hard. especially in the (relative) cold, raining, and really your first time doing it, and on a large piece. But, eventually i got everything sealed, but it took some liberal application of silicone caulking around the edge of the bag. in the rain.

lastly, on the profile of the rudder, if you look at the rudder as a flap on the end of a section, really it is mostly just tapered, and mostly straight sides. Like look at a NACA section, and imagine the front of the keel is the front of the section, the really extreme aft end has an almost inperceptible curvature to it.
If the rudder wasn't hung on the end of the keel, like for instance, a spade rudder, or a shorter immovable portion, like a skeg hung rudder, there would be a more perceptible curvature.

I browsed through Skene's Elements of Yacht design, and their example boat "Pipe Dream" is a cutaway forefoot keeled boat. The lines drawing in the book shows a taper, and again the inperceptible carvature of a faired in line.

as far as the extreme edge treament and eddies: I think that the overall aspect ratio of the rudder has much more to do with that.
I think that wheather the trailing edge comes to a fine edge or is squared off and 1/4" think has such an inperceptible difference that I don't think one would ever notice the difference. I plan on just using my orbital sander to round it over enough to allow for fiberglass cloth to lay on it and leave it at that.

[epiphany]

I'm tossing in my chips that tapering the rudder won't make *that* much of a difference. Here's why:

A NACA foil of the proper shape for our boats will have it's maximum thickness at a point about 12% aft of the leading edge. The percentage is based on the chord length of the foil. NACA/NASA came up with a number of different shapes for different foils which serve different purposes. The actual overall shape of the foil is based on the speed at which the foil moves through liquid medium - air for a plane, water for boats. So we would want the NACA foil which was designed for 6 mph, more or less (I forget which specific foil # NACA gave this one).

If that is the shape of our keels foil overall, then the shape of the trailing edge - be it flat or tapered - will have little to do with how well the foil works. However, a tapered shape *is* more hydrodynamically slippery, and would work to take away drag caused by an over-wide trailing edge (and its resultant vortices).

Blah blah blah ;), at any rate, I think we are probably talking in hundredths of a knot/mph difference in the speed gain. I'd say at *absolute most*, a sweet taper would give a 1/10th of a knot, but I seriously doubt it would be that much. I'd bet that a properly steered boat with no taper would outrun a boat not steered very well which had the perfectest of tapers. :)

Our rudders don't need a foil shape, either, because they sit right behind the deadwood of the keel, and their rounded bar front edge probably works as well as any other shape to help bring water off of the keel and over the rudders surface. Our rudders are like flaps on an airplanes main wing trailing edge, where a rudder hung by itself (yuk) would be more like the airplanes tail surfaces, and thus needs its own foil.

Last thing - a symmetric keel/foil develops lift when the Angle of Attack makes the water striking it hit more on one side than the other. Angle of Attack is the difference between where the chord of the keel (straight line front to back, through the middle) is pointing, and the direction the keel is moving through the water. If your angle of attack becomes too large for your foil, instead of producing lift, it begins to stall and lose power (with resultant leeway), just like when you oversheet your sails.

PS - I don't mean to come off as a know-it-all. :) Because I *don't* know it all. :D Here's how I learned some of this: Smaller Com-Pacs (23' and down) come with a transom-hung rudder made from a flat sheet of aluminum - no taper, just some very slightly rounded corners, enough to keep the metal from cutting you. Some individuals had made foiled replacement rudders, and claimed they improved windward performance. Well, with a CP, anything you can do to improve windward performance is a Good Thing, so I set down and larned myself all about foils and all that, and started producing a design which CP owners could retrofit to their flat rudders. Luckily, just as I was finishing up the design process, Joel at IdaSailor stepped in and volunteered to help. Now CP sailors can buy a proper rudder from Joel. :) Some of my knowledge of aerodynamics also comes from being an aviation buff.

[mrgnstrn]

yeah, Epiphany's right......there are more-better things to do to improve hydrodynamics.....like keeping a clean bottom, or going with baltoplate or something, taking the outboard out of the water when sailing, buying a feathering prop, etc etc etc.

heck, about the only thing I do for hydrodynamics sake is untie my docklines when I want to go out, so as not to drag the dock in the water behind me.

well....that is WHEN I do go out....or IF i do go out (ok, so i am a little jealous of Willie.)

[Bill]

A tenth of a knot, eh? . . Well now, that's worth trying. Could equal many boat lengths at the finish of a race . . .

[epiphany]

LOL - Bill, I knew you would say that. :)

I really don't think you'd see near that much of an increase. Probably it would be more like a couple 1/100ths. (Which might still be a boat or so... ;):D )

[Bill]

One design racing is soo competitive that if something will add to boat speed, no matter how slight, it's worth adopting. Hell, a 1/100 of knot would be worth it. :D

[Bill]

This photo posted on page 6 of Ebb's photo gallery. The design is taken from Alberg's lines drawing of the Ariel/Commander hull. It was likely added at one of the later drawing modification dates.

The rudder shape is similar to what is seen in mid 1960's and later heavy displacement designs. My guess is that it is more efficient and has less drag, but is not a pretty ;)

[Tim61N]

Hmmm... sounds like we need some more scientific way of proving this theory. Perhaps the association should sponsor a grant for me to make 2 (or more?) rudders. One perfectly flat, another with a certain taper. Observations will be made in various conditions i.e. wind speed, points of sailing, etc. Someone nuetral on the topic will verify the data and ensure the data taker(s) are reasonably sober. Thoughts???

[ebb]

Plywood too thin and the can too large.

Can see by quick History search we all had this words befor.
Yam gonna chord mah rudder, keeping it passably strate offen the keel awhile, not too much, and kinda fe e e el that mother in nice slow curves to the tip. No big letter chords, just pure technigue! This konsellation-style rudder lends itsel to shapely turns top to bottom.

There be no flat surfaces on ANY creature in the sea.

Y'all have in the A/C bottom the nicest curves there on any boat what has ever floated on water, it's almost criminal how animal that underwater shape IS. Personally can't abide that ear shaped appendage, jist naturally lean to that tip of a fin that wags there. Carl put that finny rudder on all subsequent designs of his, I believe. I know, I know, have to watch these emotions.

[mbd]

From the peanut gallery: during my time spent on the ComPac site, when I was thinking I would be happy with a trailer sailer like the CP16 perhaps, one of the mods for this boat which reportedly had fantastic results, was changing from the stock aluminum flat rudder to a fiberglass rudder with a foiled shape: less vibration and more responsive tiller were some of the improvements reported.

A BIG difference I suppose is that the CP16 is not full keeled and has a detached rudder...

[Bill]

Someone asked for an expert opinion on rudders. Ted Brewer, well known yacht designer, wrote an article on rudders for the Sept/Oct 2002 edition of Good Old Boat magazine.* Here is what he had to say about keel-hung rudders, amongst other things.

"Many older boats, such as the Folkboats, Albergs . . .and similar classics are full-keel designs with the rudder hung on the aft end of the keel. Keel-hung rudders are traditional and can be one of two types: outboard rudders, with the rudder mounted on the transom or on the stern of a double-ender, or inboard rudders, with the rudder stock emerging through a rudder port in the hull. The latter is more efficient when the boat is well heeled and the rudder is put hard over as it is less likely to ventilate (suck air down the low-pressure side) and so lose lift and steering ability.

The difference in the two types is not critical to the average cruising skipper though, and thousands of outboard-rudder yachts have made long and successful voyages . . .

The profile of older-style, keel-hung rudders was generally almost a half-circle on the trailing edge, or shaped like half a heart. Tank testing in the late 1950's and early 1960's showed that the better shape was to have the rudder squared off at the bottom, parallel to the waterline." [Karl’s added rudder in the lines drawing fits the picture.]

"As well, the top of the inboard rudder should be carried very close to the hull so the gap between the rudder and the hull is as small as possible. Less than a quarter-inch is desirable, and the thickness of a well-worn dime is better yet. Tests have shown that a gap of even a half-inch can reduce rudder efficiency by almost 10 percent due to ventilation. It will also increase resistance by several percent due to crossflow across the top of the rudder from the high- to the low-pressure side."

Ted then goes into a discussion of spade rudders that includes foil thickness based on NACA calculations. In explaining the popularity of spade rudders, he writes, "The spade gives the best combination of minimal drag combined with maximum lift and turning moment for its area."

[*Brewer, Ted, Rudders, skegs, and spades . . ., Good Old Boat 26, vol. 5, no. 5, September/October, 2002, pp 22-25]

[commanderpete]

Interesting.

I wonder how you would fill the gap between the top of the rudder and the hull (and still be able to lift the rudder out if needed).

Something like rubber weatherstripping perhaps.

[mrgnstrn]

I plan on using something sacrificial, like "good stuff" foam, shaped to the right size and clearance, then covered with a layer of F/G.
Or a strip of balsa wood.

[ebb]

crazy ole ebb, he will have the top of the rudder flat (spelt p h l a t, not rounded) and have there a piece of wood like teak that is screwed in from the top - by swinging the rudder to one side and using a short driver or the small rightangle 12v.

And the top of the fairing piece on top of the rudder is also flat, exactly matching the V-SHAPE on the boat that is over top of the rudder. If you want to get technical.

The two holes thru the filler piece are oversize but countersunk so no threads of the screws engage it, just the flat heads. Top of rudder is drilt proper for screws. IMCO this is a fairing piece not requiring an act of congress to hold it on. IMCCO you want it not sacrificial, but rubber might be good, if you plan on going aground. Talk this out.

I would use bedding compound, NOT POLY. This filler/fairing piece will keep the rudder from coming out of the shoe until the rudder is put way over. You have to be able to lift the rudder out of the shoe to pull maintenance. And to put it back in again. So you don't want anything permanent on the top. When messing around with the rudder it would be more convenient to take the fairing piece off until work is finished.

Embedding a pair of C'pete's barrelnuts in the top of the rudder with corresponding machine screws holding the fairing piece on would be too high end for an Ariel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::

See cleats like those on your rudder on Tritons that come into the yard. Seems to me if you are looking for super hydrodynamic flowsure patterning why in hell put the cleats on cattywonkus? Those bars should be horizontal, somewhat closer to the stream of water passing over the hull. If two aren't enuf, put on three, or four, but on a waterline. Picky picky, sorry :rolleyes:

Some might consider gluing on some hypolon flaps off the keel that would overlap the rudder, because that round rudder shaft there behind that squared off keel is creating vortexes that are slowing you down, too. :D

[Tony G]

Well, what about when you have a little bit of rudder angle? BAM! gap up on top again. Put a big ol' 'bump' on the bottm of the hull around the rudder tube that is flat on the bottom so the top of the rudder and the hull never wander away from each other? Trim the sails so the rudder remains dead center? Never look at the knot meter, instead focus on forming tan lines? (imagine CPete'esque photo attched here) :cool:

[commanderpete]

Good point there Tony. We'll leave it to the engineers. You should go sailing with Willie.

I'm gonna keep riding my old rudder until it decides to fall off.

The original shape certainly does work. I've never had the boat do an uncontrolled round-up no matter how far she heeled over.

[Bill]

I'm gonna keep riding my old rudder until it decides to fall off.

Besides, if you did change the shape you would need a new PHRF certificate :p

[commanderpete]

That damn rudder is probably preventing me from bringing home the silver.

One time the Commitee Boat didn't even wait for me to finish. They just pulled anchor, went home and gave me a DNF.

The Indignity!

[Tim61N]

Commanderpete,
Here is a rudder design that might give you that winning edge.. :D

[commanderpete]

That would just be WRONG.

Proceed with construction (but paint 'em black).

[Tim61N]

Commanderpete,
Of course I was just joking, that would be HIGHLY unethical!

But hypothetically speaking you would of course want the 20hp submersible electicric motors with hidden batteries in the keel? :D

[Tim61N]

Commanderpete,
Here's another subtle mod that could be done for a little extra speed :D

[epiphany]

I think that the rudder mounted motors probably would not be large enough to provide the thrust needed to dominate the SF Bay Fleet, as Bill clearly intends to do. Therefore, I propose this:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/4/ariel_jet.jpg

You'll note that it uses the engine from the Virgin Atlantic Global Flyer. I figure that that will be up for sale on eBay in another few days, and would be more economical to purchase than a new powerplant.

It may do better mounted on the centerline for cruising. This configuration is obviously intended to round marks to port only.

[commanderpete]

Waterski rudder

[Tim61N]

Here are some pics of my new rudder coming together. All the bronze parts were made from siicon bronze, rods were threaded directly into the shaft. I will use my leftover 3/8 rod for rivets for shoe and strap similar to original design. Rudder shape is close to original with a little more area down low like a constellation.

[CupOTea]

New rudder looks great Tim. Did you glue the pieces together? We are building a new rudder to match the original on Cup O Tea (Commander 290). There is no evidence of glue between the mahogany pieces on my original. Ebb has suggested somewhere that resorcinal glue is the way to go and I have it on backorder from Jamestown. My carpenter pal is tired of waiting for the backorder and wants to use a System 3 product (TAG?) But - the more I think about it - I remember someone here saying that the 1/16 spaces between the pieces in their rudder filled in when the wood swelled after being in the water. If the wood is bolted and screwed to the tiller shaft and has drift pins through it, and the pieces are glued together with 7000 lb psi glue - where is the give going to happen when the wood swells?

A friend who restores classic wooden Chris Crafts says they use 5200 exclusively between the boards. Stays flexible and gives a more natural ride. Does anyone think it makes sense to use the equivalent of 1/16 or 1/32 of 5200 between the slats to allow for swelling? And will 5200 hold up over time?

[Bill]

If "nothing" lasted 40 years . . .

[commanderpete]

Years ago I filled the gaps on my old replacement rudder. Might have used 5200, can't remember for sure.

I think it was a bad idea, the wood just swelled and made a larger gap.

I'd leave it open. Maybe a 3/16 gap with 3 boards. Possibly a larger gap with 2 big boards.

There might even be a chart somewhere that calculates how much wood swells

Nice work there Tim. How did you machine the ends of the rudder shaft?

[ebb]

That right. The traditional rudder need not be improved on in terms of method. Wouldn't you think the planks were just bedded in the old way of marrying metal and wood? If the boat is going to spend time out of the water regularly that's the way I'ld do it because you can maintain it.

If a blade put together with rubber dries out it may pull apart in a way that won't be easy to clean up. May wish you had put it together with a bedding compound you could just reef out and fill in again.

Polysulfide likes being underwater and is a longer lasting material than 5200. 5200 is so tenacious an adhesive that when a rudder dries out it is possible that the planks could crack or pull slivers of wood away at the seams. Polysulfide I believe is not as hard when cured and would be more likely to move with wood shrinkage.

So I agree with the method that leaves a seam for swelling. Seams payed with old fashioned bedding compound in a newly made plank rudder. When the boat is pulled next season for bottom paint, the squeeze out from the seams can be scraped off smooth, the rudder painted, and put back in. If the boat lives in the water, it'll remain tight.

This way you won't have to guess perfect how much to leave for the wood to swell. Fill it and scrape off the excess later. Mike may have something to say about priming the mating surfaces (the edges) with something. I might stabilize them with thinned epoxy

I guess the real problem is how to resist cinching up the long bolts too tight. One way to help keep the seams filled might be to plane the edges slightly concave. Tend to keep whatever you decide on in there. And thinned epoxy IMCO would be a great primer for the whole rudder. Befor assembly slather it on every piece all over and soak the holes. :cool:

[commanderpete]

There was a real big gap once I cleaned it up and dug out the sealant.

Couldn't tighten it. Ended up cutting the drift pins and pounding them out

Project continues...next year....maybe

[Tim61N]

Yes, I did glue the two pieces of my rudder together using system 3 epoxy. This was probably not necessary from a structural aspect, but I thought it would distribute any loads on the end of the rudder a little better. I will not use any glue on the bronze through bolts, so the wood should be free to expand outward. The expansion will not likely be significant since mahogany is so dense, so it will just tighten down on the nuts. I will will just tighten the nuts to snug to allow room for expansion. I think I will use some 5200 to seal the rudder shaft in its joint with the rudder. I am still contemplating glassing the whole works, not really concerned about keeping water out so much as getting a bit stiffer and a nicer trailing edge.
The holes in the shaft were bored and threaded with a vertical mill. The hardest part was keeping them all exactly in line all along the shaft as the mill table only had about 20" of travel and the holes are spread about 36" apart. We bottom tapped the holes about 5/8" into the shaft, and I think this will make a much stronger unit than the original. The straight shaft should distribute the stress all along the length instead of at the weakest point where the topmost bolt comes through. Looking at my old shaft its easy to see why it broke. There was very little stucture after the through hole and huge countersink. I also saw alot of evidence of leaching of the rudder shaft at that point where the through bolt was totally intact. This confirms my suspicion that the shaft was probably naval (brass) and the through bolts were likely sil bronze. So my rudder has all sil bronze, most of it all from the same source (the nuts on my through bolts were made with leftover pieces of the ruddershaft), so hopefully I will eliminate most of the galvanic issues.

[ebb]

Tim, Nice. Like the way you matched the grain. I think it was Theis who put a rudder together similarly. I worried about the rudder trying to relieve swelling stress by cupping - he said it didn't happen. Maybe the shape of a traditional rudder has something to do with that.

Congrats on getting the long holes drilled square! Hard, very hard. And end tapping the rods into the shaft is by far the very best method, elegant! That rudder looks great! :D

[CupOTea]

Thanks for the feedback and photos gents. We've been wondering about two pieces pieces in favor of the original three and it looks like we're in good company. I'm wondering if the three pieces had some distribution or flex function.

My carpenter pal likes to make things TIGHT so it will be a bit of a challenge to get him to just "tighten to snug". I notice on Tim and Pete's rudders that y'all have skipped the stainless peened straps on the outside. The original positioning is so weird (out of flow) but the original sure held together for a few years.

Scott

[ebb]

Have seen Triton rudders with the strengthening straps a right angles to the rudder boards. Could make them a little longer and turn them to the waterlines. Wonder why they put them on that way? There's one landbound T. rudder down at the yard whose rudder planks have shrunk - the metal cleats did nothing to hold them together. May have kept the rudder from bending, tho. Was that ever a problem? Maybe with a shrink and swell scenario the bolts loosen up inside and the added metal pieces were an attempted fix?

Shrink or swell the wood is going to do what it wants to. A plank rudder oughta be made from that nice dense honduras mahogany to survive the strange environment it's being asked to live in! Amazing, isn't it?

Gotta ask why Pearson didn't come up with a frp rudder for our frp boats?
Answer? No closed cell balsa available those days. :rolleyes:

[Tim61N]

My original rudder that I removed did not have the big straps I have seen on other rudders. The only straps it had were two small bronze straps to secure the inboard prop filler piece. Whats funny is that just after pulling the boat out of the water I poked at them a little and they just fell right off. Not doing a whole lot anymore I guess!! My original rudder was also made from 3 pieces. Most of the bolts were screwed into the wood except the very top one which had a nut. The outer piece was held on with screws or pins (not sure yet as I haven't removed them) from the trailing edge. I think the reason for 3 piece design is probably easier to manufacture and reduces material costs. I will take some pics today of my old rudder and post them.
Drilling those hole was a tricky operation. I took lots of time adjusting squareness on a very good drill press. I also use a very good quality brad point drill bit to start the holes about 6" into the wood. I then finished the bore with a longer bit and hand drill. It was also very important for the holes to exactly match the orientation where the enter the wood from the shaft. Any inaccuracy here and the stress would crack the wood. I used a template made from a piece of nice straight 2x2 cedar and cut the 1" dia cove just like I would cut on the mahogany after drilling. I put the cedar on the shaft and trasferred all the centers of the rods onto the template and then used this template to mark my drill points on the mahogany. I was very careful with measurements and used a very accurate scale and square to mark the template. Remember measure a dozen or so times and cut once!
I don't think I will see a cupping problem as those 3/8 bronze rods are quite strong. Having 5 rods should distribute the stresses well across the rudder hopefully. We'll see how it worked next haulout!

[Bill]

My original rudder was also made from 3 pieces. Most of the bolts were screwed into the wood except the very top one which had a nut. The outer piece was held on with screws or pins (not sure yet as I haven't removed them) from the trailing edge.

Yes, that's the Pearson original that has lasted only 40 years :eek: Manual has a complete description of it and r&r.

[CupOTea]

Well, we're going to pretty much duplicate the rudder we took off of Cup O Tea - straps, drift pins, bolts, wood screws (what a conglomeration!) and all - with the possible exception of going with 2 pieces. We're using quarter sawn Hounduras mahogany opposite grain facing. Still contemplating cauking between the slats - haven't decided on that yet. We'll see how she holds up! Thanks again for thoughts - will post pictures when we're done.

Scott

[tha3rdman]

In leiu of starting yet another rudder thread I figured I'd hijack/borrow/resurect this thread.

Looking at other vessels, being of varied keel systems, why is our rudder so very small comparitively. I have seen quite a few boating in the yard most being transom hung, but all with notably more surface area then ours. Would the Ariel benefit from additional rudder surface area, maybe even bringing the rudder up the rear a little also (above the attachment point).

[mrgnstrn]

I think it has to do with the fact that the rudder it attached to the keel. No part of the rudder is forward of the rudder shaft.


When it isn't, like a fin-keel boat with spade rudder, I think that there isn't enough lateral surface area back aft to provide lateral stability, so they have to add area back there. They might add this area forward of the rudder shaft to balance the helm somewhat.

Just a guess.

I can say from experience that the Ariel tracks like its on rails, but my 35' C&C could probably turn a 180 *inside* the same turn by the Ariel. (it would be close)

[ebb]

Seen a fair number of keel-hung rudders (on chunky wooden cruisers) come thru the yard - and yer right, nearly all of them seem too small compared with the balanced and skeg rudder. Especially older boats with the ear-shaped rudder like on the A/Cs.

One reason may be that the force needed to turn a barn door rudder probably increases exponentially by fractions of inches, so they can't get much bigger than designed without getting impossible to turn. Wouldn't mind hearing a partial dissertation on this subject. Maybe a bigger rudder would be more efficient, it's that its size has to be compromised.

I'm surprised that the Ariel turns so sluggish, given its cutaway keel profile. That's a good thing for tracking as you say. it's like my Dodge truck compared with a Honda. A little more sprightly turning and a tighter radius would be better. 338 does intend to try out the constellation alternative of Alberg's on page 148 in the Manual.

imco, A rudder of either shape built modern with a slight arc to its sides and coming to a sharper trailing edge would make it more efficient - and one might expect it to liven up the steering, right? ;)

__________________________________________________ _________________________________
Not going to convince the traditionalists on this forum who must imitate past methods when reviving their boats. If the Ariel represents the great historical leap forward from wood to plastic then why wasn't the rudder included? (well, you know me, I think Everett couldn't be bothered.) The traditional A/C rudder is obviously better matched to a wood boat. A composite rudder more suited to Ariel/Commander provenance HAS to be considered the correct upgrade. It can't be argued if it makes for a better handling boat! Underscored. My deflector shields are up.

[ebb]

Check this out:
"The main difference between a 'thin flat plate' and a NACA foil is that the foil will generate lift, ie power, at a higher angle versus the boat's direction. Where a plain flat rudder will stall and simply slow you down somewhere around +/- 5 to 10 degrees from center, a NACA foil will be effective over maybe twice that range. Your boat's rudder will work better. Tacking will be easier. A little bit of weather helm translates into more sideways 'push' upwind." Craig O'Donnell
google >Foil FAQ< www.boat-links.com/foilfaq.html


A rudder creates drag evertime you move it. I believe a foil shaped rudder would even help the keel create lift and not stall the asymetical heeled shape out, which seems to happen alot on one boat I know.

Hope to 'generate' not only lift but some discussion...

[c_amos]

On haul out, the rudder looked pretty good. It was covered in the same slime that had built up over the rest of the hull;

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1Haul14Rudderscum.jpg

The straps you see were added by the prior owner, Herb Tucker and appear to be holding up well. I did not remove them, but sanded them down, and they seemed to be in good shape. There is a split in the rudder along the seam where 2 planks were joined (I can see at least 5 bronze rods (pins?) that run through from the end.

The split had been filled with some kind of Calk on the last haul out, which seemed like a good compromise to me.

Here is the rudder after pressure wash;

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1Haul21Rudder2.jpg

I sanded it, coated it with epoxy. I coated it with epoxy, faired it in and painted it.

Here is what it looks like now;
http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/1_2Haulout_0049.jpg

I felt like the rudder was in pretty good shape. The straps that Herb added seem like a reasonable precaution to prevent the end of the rudder (beyond the seam) from sliding off.

[CupOTea]

Hi Gents - Hopefully there are pictures of my new quarter sawn Honduran mahogony rudder attached to this post. For reasons previously discussed regarding wiggle room for wood expansion etc (and before reading Ebb's recommendation to make it out of one piece) - we opted to make the rudder out of two pieces. Everything else including the bronze pins and bolt boxes was made to match the original - except for the two stainless straps that were peened on there - maybe at some point by PO to hold the old one together.

Now I'm wondering. Should I just give the thing a couple of coats of penetrating epoxy and leave 'er be? Should I bother putting some glass over the seam of the two pieces?

[CupOTea]

After loading my rudder photos on Ebb's Photo Gallery thread - I found this thread.

If anyone has advice on finishing this rudder and would be so kind as to go over to that thread and weigh in, I'd appreciate it.

[Tim Mertinooke]

I removed my rudder and it was in great shape so I was in a similar position that you are. After asking around I decided to leave it alone and just paint it with bottom paint. I considered CPES but decided against it after some credible people told me to leave it alone.

http://triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2129&sid=c47c3f6eb7641b6a5b128aaf4b82de9c

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/Rudder%20Profile%20Starboard.jpg

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20removed%201.jpg

[Theis]

I loaded up the wood with sealer(4 or 5 coats asI recall)put on bottom primrt and bottom paint. Swatchesof the bottom paint have come off at years end, but the mshogany is stilll solid after about 10 years in fresh water(Emersion in fresh water is hrder on mahogany than in salt water, or so I understand.The wood should not be encased in glass because the woodwill rot in my opinion- particlarly if the vessel is hauled where it freezes

[Tim Mertinooke]

Theis, what did you use as the initial sealer?

[ebb]

Hmm, If I messed it up, I meant to say that the OB model Ariel rudder can be made with a SINGLE piece of rod. Since there is no cutout for a prop it is appropriate and much stronger than the two piece bend rod rudder that I understand ALL Ariels had on them. OB Ariels had an insert/plug in the aperture. Or some didn't.

The mahogany part of the rudder, the blade, if it is a traditional stack of planks, should not be a single piece of wood. Although at least one on these pages is just that. (Theiss' ?) The reason is that woodworkers believe a single plank can absorb water and warp in relation to the log it was cut from. Two boards stacked edge to edge are less likely. And three planks even more unlikely to warp. You reverse the grain when stacking. If you have to have a wood rudder, noble mahogany is the best next to the king of woods, teak. Because neither is known for warping much.

Whether you glue the planks together - or use a rubber adhesive - or merely use a bedding compound is still pretty much open for discussion, isn't it? Whatever I did I would still seal all surfaces with thinned epoxy so that water absorbsion is equalized. And it's a good primer for subsequent paint. The rudder will swell some in the water (and shrink some when out of the water), so I would allow for that by not sweating the long thru-bolts/allthread fasteners - or you'll just be crushing wood fibers where you needn't. And when dried out the planks will be loose. Just snug on the nuts.

As I understand it, as long as you keep a wood rudder clean and painted nothing much is going to happen to it. So it doesn't need to be encapsulated.
If you have an old rudder, that's showing its age - then a quick fix and a new lease can be had with fiberglass and epoxy.

[Jim Wiles]

I went through the same discussion on what to seal my new rudder with. Some of the guys said to use "Old Salem Sealer"; I did and it has done really well; I can keep an eye on the wood an fasteners; I don't even anti-foul it.
In fresh water we swim quite a bit and I just wipe it down with a sponge.

[Theis]

As I recall. it was the Interlux wood sealer available at West

[CupOTea]

Sorry for the misquote, ebb - must be the acetone.

Thanks for that thread link, Tim. Very enlightening and recommended to members. And a beautiful rudder.

So - I think I'll go with the epoxy prime coat (Awlgrip 545 or similar) and then bottom paint for the finish. Forget about glassing it in for protection.

The remaining question is strength of the rudder blade at the seam between the two pieces. Tim, your rudder looks like 3 pieces? But it was encapsulated all this time so ostensibly the glass added strength.

I've got the three original drift pins in there and the the grain is reversed on the stacking of the two pieces - the seam is filled with bedding compound.

Don't know why I am so nervous about the strength - should I be??

[ebb]

It has been observed that a stand alone skeg or balanced rudder has enormous forces acting on it that a keel hung rudder doesn't experience.

Trying to remember, but the rudders mentioned on this site don't talk much if at all about the wood falling off - it is about metal: the shoe has a number of issues, corrosion at the bolt connection of the planks to the shaft, the shaft corroding up in the tube, the shaft wearing out the bearing at the tiller head. The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades. Right?

The keel hung rudder is exactly where a rudder should be. Protected, very little stress on the blade, less force needed to steer. Can't back the boat up so good. tho.

[Tim Mertinooke]

Kenarang Ebb Wrote:
"The original rudder engineering seems to have done just fine for four decades. Right?"

This is what I keep coming back to everytime I find something "weird" about my boat which occurs daily. Upon close inspection under the waterline I feel like my boat shouldn't float, but it did, for a long time now. My rudder was in remarkable shape having been encapsulated for so long (at least 32 years) and like I mentioned earlier, I am going to paint it and that's it. Rudders are like chains, the weakest part that gives can cause the entire thing to fail. If the mahogany and bronze components (shaft, etc) are in good shape I would think it's fine without modification.

[CupOTea]

The old rudder had the metal straps that other owners have mentioned but I'm inclined to agree that they were added afterwards - completely out of line with the water flow.

I'm going to prime that rudder up and bottom paint it and let 'er fly. thanks.

[commanderpete]

Beautiful rudder there Cup. That mahogony is so nice, seems a shame to cover it up

[C-164]

Hi Guys,

I'm a new owner of Commander 164. Just bought her a month ago. I'm in the Miami area. The boat drifted from her mooring, went aground and half of the wooden rudder is gone. I'd like to know how feasable it would be to remove the rudder while she is in the water. I didn't see this issue addressed in any of the rudder threads. The top of the rudder post looks well above the waterline. It seems like the only issue would be to remove the tiller head and the gudgeon strap. It could take over a week or two to rebuild the rudder. Do you think this is doable in the water. Having her hauled and stored on land for 1 week here would cost $475 I could use that money toward the repair instead. What do you think? Am I overlooking something important?

Barry
Hollywood, FL

[ebb]

CONGRATS on 164!
Commander Fleet has to answer this one.

But how easy is it for you to get at the fastening(s) holding the strap around the rudder post? Lots of bottom paint crud? What's the fastening head - hex, slot heads? Will you be able to turn them? How long can you stay under water?

If the vessel had recent work done on the rudder (so that the strap, if it is indeed still a strap there and not a DFO replacement) is free of decades of buildup) it could be feasible. Got scuba?:rolleyes:

[commanderpete]

We love crazy schemes around here

How about this:

Run the boat aground in a good spot

Use a mask and snorkel with extension tube

Use a cheap air drill ($10 at Harbor Freight) Borrow a compressor.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94585

With a wire brush attachment, expose the screw heads

Drill the screws out

Tie a rope on the rudder

Back into deeper water and drop the rudder

Post pictures here

Of course, I've never tried anything like this

[bill@ariel231]

while we are on the subject of crazy schemes.. (this might work for both C-164 and Mr Tim's A-24)

what about sistering the current rudder with two plywood skins through bolted over the current rudder? ... I'm thinking 1/4 inch marine plywood precut and painted before installation in the water....:rolleyes: It might work for a season or so..


I think this could be done in shallow water without removing the rudder.

[Tim Mertinooke]

Bill there are times I feel as though the Force guides us here on the forum. I too am thinking of the old plywood sandwhich to get mine to work this summer. I failed to mention in my post that the top shaft did get pulled out of the rudder cap with the force of the twisted rode and I couldn't dive down to ook for it as I was with my family and we were in about 20 feet of water. I was thinking something on the line of (don't laugh and remember this needs to last only a couple months) a steel water pipe to drop down into or put up through the rudder tube then screw on a "T" fitting so that I can have the lateral piece to help spread the load of the rudder. The lateral piece will act like the bronze piece bolted to the original shaft providing support. Then I might sandwhich and through bolt as your diagram suggests to the rudder that is left. This will certainly be a fair-weather sailing repair and I already know I can make it back to my mooring just by the motor in the well if it fails, but if it gets me to September and I get a few sails out of it I'm golden. Plus it's a cheap simple repair and could be done in the grace period at low tide if I dry dock next to the club. My future "new" rudder will have a shaft going all the way down and will be reinforced with FRP somehow so it's bulletproof. I know the buoyancy needs to be as close to nuetral as possible, but my future rudder will be bulletproof possibly at that expence. I still haven't worked out the details on the new one yet as I have this fall and winter to do so.

[bill@ariel231]

I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course:rolleyes: that should be a first on this forum!:)

oh by the way, you might want to look into that commander getting parted out... her rudder may also be a great option in the near term.

here are her sails.... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/SAILS...mZ250110199285, her logo plates have also found a home on the Lucky Dawg... http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=15764#post15764

[Tim Mertinooke]

I'm sure you'll have a viable fix lined up soon... we'll want underwater photos of course:rolleyes: that should be a first on this forum!:)

Underwater pictures huh? How about a bunch taken after she's sitting in the mud at low tide? Besides, have I ever dissapointed in the picture category.:)

Next week is when the festivities will happen if all goes as planned. I have a basic plan in my head right now, but it will not be until I get a real good look that I can proceed. The river we keep the boat in has quite a current, so I may not be able to dive except on the slack tide. If I can't dive, then I have to wait until she's sitting on themud. This may very well be a two tide job. We'll see. Stay tuned.

[ebb]

We need some pix of the rudder being extracted when yer beached - or mudded as the case may be. Bring a shovel.


Rudder neutral buoyancy?
338's 'straight' 1" bronze post and some pieces of 1/8" bar stock (instead of allthread rod and nuts) weigh in (just the metal) at 21#. Wood floats, and would minus some weight if you were going with a stack of planks on a traditional rebuild. On the other hand, I would guess the foam and fiberglass I'm using will probably add to the overall weight. To be honest.

How do you weigh an immersed rudder? Might be good to know.

Thing is, neutral buoyancy isn't really possible if you're going to use 6' of 1" bronze rod for your rudder post! Or have I got it wrong?

How did Carl Alberg figure it?

[C-164]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Since I don't have a manuel yet, everyones posts on the rudder threads gave me all the information I needed. Got my rudder off today at anchor. Went at it with a mask and snorkel and a 7/16 open end wrench tied around my neck with some twine and a vice grip.The bronze strap holding the rudder shaft to the keel was attached with 2 stainless steel bolts with 7/16" nuts. They came off easily as did the tiller head. I appreciate someones comment about opening the slot on the tillerhead by banging in a large screwdriver. Worked for me and came off with just a little prying.
Oh yea, of course I tied the rudder with line, then I yanked the tiller up as far as it could go, went back down, pushed the rudder shaft off of the shoe came back to the cockpit and removed the tillerhead then dropped the rudder.
Anyone need half a rudder?

Barry

[Tim Mertinooke]

We need some pix of the rudder being extracted when yer beached

Oh don't you worry about that. I just hope you guys aren't working off of dial-up.:)



Rudder neutral buoyancy?.

As I understand it the shaft should not be taken into account when figuring the density which in turn determines the buoyancy of the rudder as it acts as a pivot point and rests in the shoe, therefore it's weight is insignificant. The blade of the rudder however is allowed to move side to side and can do so either by sinking or floating, but the shaft cannot.
I have read that a well constructed rudder should have the same density as the water it is in. If the rudder is more dense than the water it is in and you are healing 10 degrees lets say, the rudder will have a tendancy to want to sink. This can affect the feel in the tiller and possibly the handling of the boat. There is of course a force against the rudder as the boat is moving through the water which could negate the sinking rudder, but on a light day I think it may be noticable and I see the logic in the argument even if it is a negligible amount of pressure caused by it wanting to sink. If the rudder is less dense than water, then it will have a tendancy to want to float. In that case as you were traveling in the same situation mentioned earlier heeled over, you would be compensating against it's buoyancy. If however the rudder is the same density as the water it is in, then it should not sink or float, but stay where you put it. Of course this isn't taking into account weather-helm, etc. which could make this a moot point, but nontheless it seems like a good argument to me that a well balanced boat has a rudder with the same density as the water it is in even if it takes an America's Cup skipper to notice.


How do you weigh an immersed rudder? Might be good to know.

You can get the density of the rudder through water displacement if rudder is removed and then find its mass by weighing it then converting. With the mass and volume you can get the density. Compare that to water which is about 1g/cc. More it sinks, less it floats. You would have to subtract the mass of the shaft, but include the "bar stock" that extends into the rudder which might make for a tricky situation. To get the mass of the just the shaft I supppose you could submerge just the shaft end of the rudder into a kiddie pool and measure the amount of overflow somehow and that would give you a pretty accurate volume reading. Then you could find the density of that particular bronze and simply multiply the volume with the ?g/cc to get the mass of the shaft. You could then subtract that from the overall mass of the rudder and shaft and that would give you the mass of the blade and bronze located within the blade.


Thing is, neutral buoyancy isn't really possible if you're going to use 6' of 1" bronze rod for your rudder post! Or have I got it wrong?

I have a habit of being wrong more than right and I have no ego to harbor, so if I am wrong or my logic doesn't jive with others, someone chime in.


How did Carl Alberg figure it?

Good question, but I know my Typhoon rudder is made of two pieces of plastic that foam was injected into, then the whole thing was covered in FRP. I wonder how much Alberg called for specific construction methods and materials to be used, and how much of that went to the wayside in the search for a cheaper product to produce by the manufacturer. Cape Dory infamously used regular steel backing plates welded to bent steel rebar for its chain plates on the CD-28. These backing plates have been the achiles heel of a world cruiser now that these boats have hung out in salt water environments for the past 20-35 years and have begun (or have) to disinigrate. I don't think Carl would have ordered that up, do you? Someone was looking to save a buck. My boat has no seacocks, surely a stubborn swede with an eye for seaworthiness would not have specified that.

[ebb]

Tim,
OK, basicly if you disregard the weight of the rudder post, it could be figured that in the traditionally designed Alberg rudder of wood, a couple long bolts and a few screws... you have a neutral buoyant rudder there. Wood floats, add some metal and you got neutral. By definition.

On the Foss Foam rudder site they suggest that if you have a n.b. rudder it would be a breeze to remove it in the water. This is where my understanding breaks down - it seems you'd have to leave the rudder post in place for that benefit. I would guess the preponderance of Foss Foam rudders are spade in shape and not keel attached. They have a short ss pipe for the shaft with a couple short welded fins to keep the foam from turning inside the skin. Maybe yer Cape has one of these? Anyway the rudder unit in a modern foam design would be significantly lighter and perhaps easier to remove in water. Remember though, they have to skimp on the plastic and glass which is 3 times heavier than wood and only displaces water.

An Ariel rudder could be removed that way, but its weight will be significant.

On the Foss site they say that a n.b. rudder would reduce "the moment of inertia in the stern." But it would not, if traditional constructed, reduce the weight added to the stern by metal.

Could somebody make an arguement FOR our original rudder in that its metalic weight creates some welcome inertia to ease steering? Dampen steering movement? Would a lighter rudder make for easier steering?

With a thin blade and a 1" diameter bronze rudder shaft it isn't obvious how a lighter rudder could be fashioned.

Still, a neutral buoyancy rudder is a matter of function, not weight, and that kind of thing is what engineer's brains are made of. (To me this urethane foam rudder is "compromise design." The term neutral buoyancy is a quasitech term invented to sell questionable skin and foam and s.s. rudders to the consumer.:p )
Thanks for making it clearer. IF I got it?;)

[commanderpete]

Good job on the rudder Barry.

Sounds like your rudder has been off before, since you found stainless bolts.

You guys who have taken the rudder off....how was the rudder strap held on?

[Tim Mertinooke]

My strap which had been on since at least 1974 making it most likely original was held on with two pins with a carraige bolt type head on one side and peened ends on the other. I knew that I was going to replace the strap as it was well worn and slightly corroded so I decided to take the destructive route and drill out peened ends until they could be tapped out. Removing the strap was easy once the pins were removed. Then I overdrilled the holes and allowed them to dry out for a while and gave healthy doses of acetone to speed the process up. Once it was completely dry I filled with epoxy, then redrilled the holes to accept the 1/4 bronze bolts I put in to hold the new strap.

More details here (http://www.ariel24.com/project_rudder.html).



http://www.ariel24.com/images/rudder/rudder%20close%204.jpg

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%201.jpg


The new strap fabricated from a 1/8 inch sheet of bronze provided by Ebb.
http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%206.jpg

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%209.jpg

After the epoxy cured and I redrilled the holes, I set the strap in 5200. I used bronze carraige bolts and nuts from Jamestown (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/search.do?freeText=bronze%20carraige%20bolts&page=GRID&history=)to hold it in place.
http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%207.jpg

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/rudder%20strap%208.jpg

Hopefully I will not have to remove the strap when I make my temporary rudder repair as I plan to sandwhich plywood to either side of what's remaining. This winter however, I will be removing the strap to remove what is left of the rudder and will start from scratch. The shoe will stay on as it is bedded in 5200 and I epoxed the bronze pins in place to ensure a watertight, strong bond as I only peened the ends of the pins on the shoe. I hope to fashion a new rudder to Albergs modified design and use a full length bronze shaft ($$$). I also want to make it so that it can be put on and removed without removing the shoe so that I can do repairs in the water. Right now the rudder cannot be lifted high enough to remove it without removing the shoe. This will require a nifty modification to the top of the rudder so that the shaft will clear the shoe, possibly a bolted on piece that is strong, but removable when desired to do so. I'm thinking of epoxying with cloth over marine plywood for the rudder construction, but I still have time to work those details out.

The Contessa 26 and the Flicka were also on my list when I was looking for a bigger boat earlier this year. I always saw the value of the transom hung rudders in terms of simplicity and repair potential. Our rudders are annoyingly less so, but hey, we have overhang and that is sweet!

[ebb]

imho The rudder shoe is a permanent fitting. There should never be a reason to remove it.
The gudgeon is a maintenance fitting if it can be called that. It is what is removed or merely bent out of the way to allow the rudder to be raised out of the shoe and removed.
The gudgeon's main use is to limit the rise of the rudder out of the shoe.
But it is possible to argue that if the gudgeon is substantial, it could allow the rudder to rise above the seat in the shoe. That is it could allow the rudder to rise and still guide it right back down into the seat.

Arguements for this would be that there is more rise available in case of grounding. Depends on what the top limit is. Also if you were persuaded that a delrin or some ultra HDPE washer between the bottom of the shaft and the shoe was an improvement, it could be slipped in and replaced easy. An arguement against is that you could get mud in yer shoe.

Depending on the galvanics of similar and different alloys present, there may be a need for zincs to be incorporated on longer bolts - and easily replaced.

[Tim Mertinooke]

imho The rudder shoe is a permanent fitting. There should never be a reason to remove it.

I have only removed my rudder by removing the shoe, but I like the idea of being able to do so without removing the shoe. How much would one have to bend the shaft in order to remove rudder if the shoe were to stay on. Or is there enough play in the rudder tube to take it off without bending?


Arguements for this would be that there is more rise available in case of grounding. Depends on what the top limit is.

These rudders I'm afraid are not setup well to a grounding as the tube itself travels into the hull at or just above the waterline. If the rudder got punched into the bottom of the hull or if the lateral force was too great within the tube, the consequence could be the loss of steering, but also a hole in the hull where the tube is. I think an upgrade like yours where you reinforce the tube with epoxy and cloth is a well thought out plan and I think should be standard protocol for anyone seriously cruising with an ariel. The transom hung rudders on the other hand would allow the pintles to pop out of the gudgeon if the cotter pins holdng them in place were of lesser strength. If the rudder was attached to the hull via a short cable, the rudder would still be attached to the boat, all mounting hardware would be intact and your rudder would still be with you. Great setup for repair.


Depending on the galvanics of similar and different alloys present, there may be a need for zincs to be incorporated on longer bolts - and easily replaced.

I am going over this in my mind as I make a list of things to get for my replacement. I found a 1" rod 6 feet long for $250 at onlinemetals.com (http://www.onlinemetals.com) . It is silcon bronze, but I'm not sure if it would play well with the rudder shoe. A zinc is certainly a possiblility for this new setup, but exact materials is ideal to prevent making a battery at the expense of an expensive piece of hardware.

[ebb]

Tim, The reason we don't have a bearing where the shaft enters the boat is to have room to move the rudder over to drop it once it's lifted out of the shoe. (And the TOP bearing removed.) That seems to be the main reason. There is plenty of room in that 1 1/2" tube (maybe its bigger, can't remember) for a 1" shaft to be skooched over. But the gudgeon has to be removed or opened enough.
Couldn't bend the rudder but on 338 there was only glass and plastic around the hole the shaft goes in. Take a rat tail to file it open enough to get it over.

Gudgeon.
Have to make it easy to un-nut the bolt and bend the 'U' open.
Or knock the bolts thru and drop the rudder with the gudgeon in place. til you get it away from the keel. Imco I would not glue this fitting on but use bedding compound. It doesn't need to be adheesed! Doesn't do hardly any work. It's a back-up. Important back-up.

A tired Ariel came into the yard once that had no rudder shoe!:eek: It was plain gone! The rudder was hanging there and held in place with what looked like copper plumber's tape in the gudgeon position. It went back in without getting fixed. But this illustrates how important the gudgeon is.

Keel hung rudders that go into the boat have a generic problem with going aground and jamming the rudder up into the boat. Somebody did just that here and posted. Find it? Guess you have to live with this danger. Can't know how extensive damage will be so it's not really possible to prepare for it. I think the rudder looses, not the boat.

Silicon bronze is essentially inert in seawater. It's 98% copper. This doesn't mean your rudder shoe is silicon. Many bronzes like manganese are actually brass, they can have 40% zinc in them.

Bristol Bronze once said that they supplied Pearson with these castings. Manganese bronze underwater is bad news. Who knows what bronze was actually used for the shoes in our A/C's.
The shoe on 338 was heavily pitted on one side as if being eaten or leached away. The eaten side was greyish, it may have been the alloyed zinc in the fitting leaving home.
The rudder shaft was a refit s.s. propeller shaft that showed no corrosion at all. Hard to know what that alloy was or whether it was responsible for the corrosion in the shoe. Obviously the metal mix was BAD.
The zinc was threaded onto a longer bolt thru the shoe. But was not up to the job. Course you never know the whole story.

It is possible to get fancy and make a rudder blade with pvc foam (NOT urethane) and maybe design in a breakaway top or even a bottom breakawy piece that will leave the mid section of the blade usable in a dramatic grounding.

[Tim Mertinooke]

Tim, The reason we don't have a bearing where the shaft enters the boat is to have room to move the rudder over to drop it once it's lifted out of the shoe. That seems to be the main reason. There is plenty of room in that 1 1/2" tube (maybe its bigger, can't remember) for a 1" shaft to be skooched over. But the gudgeon has to be removed or opened enough.

Makes perfect sense, thank you for clarifying that. I must say I am a bit relieved, because the thought of removing the shoe after welding it on with 5200 and epoxy was a bit daunting.


Imco I would not glue this fitting on but use bedding compound. It doesn't need to be adheesed! Doesn't do hardly any work. It's a back-up. Important back-up.

Good point. I used 5200 because I did the strap and shoe at the same time and had it on hand. I think I'll use a polysulfide on the strap when I remount my new rudder this winter.

[bill@ariel231]

FYI: The summer issue of "Boatworks" magazine has a short article on fabrication of a transom mounted rudder using epoxy, redwood and carbon fiber. While the style of the rudder doesn't include a bronze shaft like ours, the choice of materials may be applicable...http://www.sailmag.com/boatworks/

[ebb]

One great idea I've seen - if I recall, from a singlehand race boat prep site -
is a rudder blade that you make up yourself out of foam and glass, whatever, rather like a surfboard -
that slips into a stainless steel rod cage you have hanging on your transom.
The cage, of course, doesn't have to live there, but that may not be a bad idea, it could hook on with gudgeons and pintles. Or that as a unit of hinges and cassette could slip down some huge sail track like system permanently attached to the stern.
The idea was that if you suddenly needed the backup rudder you attach the cage without trailing the rudderblade which would make it impossible to attach while hanging over the transom
- and then slip the blade in.

I would imagine the blade unit would have to be minimum 6 feet. Probably more like 7 or 8 for a well-heeled Ariel.
I believe that rudder blade would be narrow, no more than a foot front to back, and not very thin, for beef.
This page had formulas for calculating torque forces on such a rudder, plans and foil formulas. Those forces would be huge, much more than the forces on a keel hung.

You'd have to split the backstay.
It could be that an offshore Ariel would not handle well with a faraft rudder. Never know - has it been done? It would take some spirited invention and development. Both as a backup rudder and as a possible replacement for the original. And what would you do with the original, lock it into place?

Might have to move the mast.

[bill@ariel231]

There's an old 1980 vintage BOC transatlantic boat at my marina with this sort of setup. The box is on the centerline with a single back stay. I believe the setup used either a wishbone shaped tiller or control lines to get around the backstay. I'll tack on a picture of the mount when I get a chance....

even better... here's a link to the boat with the rudder installed:
http://www.nike4.com/

[Tim Mertinooke]

You'd have to split the backstay.

Nimble 20's or 24's which I think are really cool boats have a mizzen mast that gets in the way of a tiller the way a backstay would on our boats. They get around this by using a triangle shaped piece of hardware made out of stainless tubing that is attached to a fitting on the rudder and on the other end the tiller. It allows free movement side to side without hitting the mizzen. It's a neat idea and could imagine this setup working with an emergency tiller hung on the stern of our boat.

http://www.sailingtexas.com/picnimble24ac.jpg

[Orca]

Hi:

I"m interested if anybody has used oak as a material in the rudder. A family friend is a boat builder and I asked him to build me a new rudder after mine recently ripped apart after catching on a lobster pot at speed. He said we could use oak if the wider gaps in the planks over the winter don't bother me. Growing up around wooden boats I know that oak was widely used on rudders here in Maine but I'm not entirely convinced.

Also, I read about taking the rudder off in the water and my brother is a diver who said he could do the job but he asked me to find out if an Ariel can be beached on its side and refloat without flooding through the sink or cockpit drains. We were considering beaching her in the soft mud letting the side rest on a couple of large pieces of styrofoam. Has anybody beached an Ariel before on its side? We have a local wharf that has a tie up for beaching boats in the upright position but this time of the year it would be a pain in the but with all the tourists.

Best,

Ed

[bill@ariel231]

Ed

Yikes! I don't know if anyone has voluntarily done this on a flat surface. Mr. Tim (A-24) has talked about hauling out on a mud berth for his rudder repair.

I'd suggest thinking about finding a place to haul out that has some slope to it... Or... maybe drying out on with some jack stands or a cradle positioned in the water before the tide runs out. The attached cartoon shows some possible waterlines. It looks like the boat should recover just fine, but wave action may put water in the cockpit/icebox/lockers... (Are there any Naval Architects in the house??)

cheers, and good luck
Bill

[C-164]

Hi Ed,

I can weigh in with some personal experience as to laying the boat on it's side. I'm embarrassed to admit but one time that I went aground, the water level went down to about 1.5" at low tide. My boat was over the 45 degree angle as depicted in the above diagram. The water was over the toe rail almost to the coaming for hours. I was 100% sure that due to the heavy weight of the boat that as the tide came back, it would flood the boat before enough bouyancy was acheived to raise the boat off of it's side. I'm happy and amazed to report that this wasn't the case as the boat rose like an angel. Bless Carl Albergs design. BTW, it lay on the starboard side (galley side on my boat) and no water came in from the sink, but I did have some water in the bilge probably from the hull-deck joint being submerged for hours.
As to your question of removing the rudder at this angle, don't forget that the rudder has to drop down a few feet to clear the rudder post, you would have to dig a trench which might be difficult. I recently removed mine at anchor with a mask and snorkel which was easy. I was able to source a take-off rudder from someone who is parting out a commander. At this point I now have to replace the new rudder at anchor. I would love to have the boat hauled at this point to replace it, paint the bottom, remove the toilet and sink and glass the through hulls, but I can't move the boat till the rudder's back on. I dropped the rudder alone, but will need some help to raise the new one. I'll let you know how it goes.
Good luck,
Barry

[ebb]

bill, as usual, has great informative stuff. This is a great diagram!
What it shows me is that putting an Ariel over on its side would NOT make it any easier to remove the rudder.

Well, maybe a bit easier to get at the gudgeon, but you'd still have a time of it digging a hole (in MUD, no way) to squirrel the rudder out. It would be better on a slope. You got big tides up there down east. I dunknow, all that water coming in all at once! No rudder in the boat....:eek:

I'd sure like to hear how it wortks out......you first, Ed;)

[Orca]

The mud is a good part of this scheme if we try it. I'm not too sure why we are even thinking about this as I won't be able to fix it until the fall when the boat will be on the hard. I think we may try to jury rig something on the runt that is left of the rudder for the rest of the season. I always wondered if you could beach her on her side.

Using the same dock, we once winched the boat onto its side using the halyard at high tide to replace a through hull . . .so dangerous acts have been committed in the past. I think we have 11 feet on big tides but I don't recall. This is a dead calm spot so no waves are involved.

Any thoughts about oak?

Best, Ed

BTW I was a member of the board about 10 years ago. I'm very impressed with a lot of the boat pictures etc. I was pretty sure that my manual had the offsets for a new rudder but I don't see them. Am I mistaken or did I loose that page over the years?

[ebb]

Ed, I believe
your boat builder friend is correct - you can rebuild your rudder using WHITE OAK
if you use the same method as the original. The original rudder uses all silicone bronze rod and screws. No glue is used. White Oak don't like no glue anyway.

You'd be using quartersawn to avoid tendancy to warp. That's also the cut that will shrink and swell. My feeling would be to go with the biggest oldest tightest grain white oak available. Might be too mean to ever open up! The Ariel rudder is a BLADE. Rather thin, requires nice wood.

Black Locust is another, probably more rot resistant wood and stronger if that's what you want. You guys consider this a weed, don't you? Best damn boat building wood in the world,
next to teak, and yellow pine, and honduras, and....... :D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
Let me ask you guys something:
IF you didn't let the fastenings corrode on the tiller fitting, and you could take it off easy - and the same thing with the gudgeon - why not take the rudder off when you haul out. Keep it in brine, Nothing crazy - just so the water don't freeze. Make a ply box - line it black plastic - and balance the rudder shaft across the top with the wood in the liquid. Why not?

The fiberglass/foam rudder guys think you're nuts.

The arguement for doing something like this is that seasonal shrinking and swelling is going to loosen the bolts eventually,
so you'll end up having to put plates on the sides of the blade in an attempt to keep it straight. We West Coasters NEVER haul our boats in the winter (YUP, the rudder stays wet forever) because it's too bloody expensive.:rolleyes:

[tha3rdman]

Can we revisit the rudder/neutral byoancy thought for a bit? But I want to throw a twist in the mix. In that post it's said that if the rudder is boyant then it'll tend to float when healed over, and addeing weather helm.

If a rudder (mahogany) is left uncovered and took on water I imagine that it comes close to neutral (right?) if its covered like #97 and a few others it is less likely to take on that water making it forever boyant (right?)

Here's the question: Those ariels out there that "sail them selves" are your rudders covered or not? And those out there with hard handed weather helm are yours covered? #97 falls into the latter catagory.

[bill@ariel231]

If we are taking a poll on glassed / non-glassed rudders..

A-231's rudder is 'glassed. I set the amount of lee or weather helm i want with the sail trim (mainsheet traveler and jib). Just for amusement of visitors, Alyce and I occasionally steer the boat with sail trim alone.

even though my rudder is 'glassed it will not float. one layer of 24oz mat and 6oz cloth each side more than make up for a dry rudder.

ps... the new production Ensign class boats (our little sisters) are using a foam and fiberglass now instead of the wood original. A friend of mine refit one of those new rudders to her 40yr old ensign. the boat is faster and the rudder is tough as nails.

[ebb]

For what it's worth, my opinion.
It is my understanding that the fudge yacht designers use for figuring "neutral buoyancy" for a rudder does not include the shaft.
It's obvious then that if the rudder blade on an Ariel or Commander were AIR,
the rudder would still not float.

Only wood rudders on dinghys float.

It would be interesting to find out who makes the Ensign rudder. Foss Foam rudders of Stainless steel and urethane foam are accidents waiting to happen. Neither one of these materials are meant to stay any time under water. My opinion is that even when brand new, the way the foam rudders I've seen are constructed, a shock from a rock, grounding, or a bang from anything will loosen the construction and render the blade useless. There is no way to keep water out of a urethane foam rudder - when it gets in you got trouble. And you will have to buy a whole new rudder because the stainless steel inside will be rusting.

Here's some thoughts on wood used for rudders such as ours.
The first thing to observe is that the bronze and wood (mahogany) rudders have been hanging around, in and out of the water for decades. Since day one for some.

When wood gets wet the fiberous cell walls get soaked first, then the cell cavities, that is saturation. Some woods sink in water when soaked, some don't. It is my personal opinion that wood will always remain wood and not revert to lead - in terms of weight. At what percentage of water in wood a rudder looses its 'neutral buoyancy' I don't know. A rudder blade made from mahogany or teak will be lighter than one made from white oak. In an A/C rudder I don't think it's a hell of a lot of difference given its size and skinnyness.

When drying out, the wood rudder will loose its cell cavity water first. There won't be any shrinking until the cell walls start loosing water. Shrinking will start in earnest when the wet wood in the rudder has lost about 2/3s of its weight. Nobody around the yard remmbers ever seeing saturated wood - unless it was rotten. I wonder if healthy wood can ever get to a saturated state?

The problem with seasonal drying and soaking is that the cell walls will get distorted and will not entirely return to dimension. Air dried lumber is always prefered by craftsmen for boats because the wood has not been case hardened and distorted by oven drying.

Water will always get into wood under water. Even encapsulated wood will be wet - tho, like the plastic rudder above, it is a matter of methodology and materials. Good close grain, old growth, air dry, quartersawn lumber will make a stronger longer lasting rudder. I've never heard that water logged wood looses any strength compared to dry.

Salt is hydroscopic. A rudder drying out from salt water will have salt crystals inside. There will always be moisture in a salt water rudder. BUT if it gets below 30% it'll shrink.

Epoxy is synthetic (wood) resin. I think it is a 'natural' wood preservative.
Any new rudder should be soaked in the stuff. I would soak the predrilled individual planks of a rudder in thinned epoxy befor assembly. It won't ecapsulate but will slow the effects of oxidation and time. Repeated drying and soaking a wood rudder accelerates the aging process. A mistreated rudder made with airdry will last longer. Mike Goodwin told me that.*
All IMCO;)
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
*no, he didn't. Where the hell is Mike when you need him.....?

[mbd]

Here's the question: Those ariels out there that "sail them selves" are your rudders covered or not?

A-414's rudder was 'glassed'. It's been delaminating since I've owned it and the glass is peeling off in big slabs. But - she sails like a dream with full genny (150) and main in 5-15 mph winds. When it pipes up and I switch to the smaller head sail (100), I get a LOT of weather helm because I have yet to reef the main...


I set the amount of lee or weather helm i want with the sail trim (mainsheet traveler and jib). Just for amusement of visitors, Alyce and I occasionally steer the boat with sail trim alone.

Hey Bill, I want sailing / rigging lessons! :)

[ebb]

Never Glass A Plank Rudder

[ebb]

If the rudder is more or less holding together or if you have all blade parts,
BETTER THAN GLASSING would be to thrubolt strips of some fairly stiff material to patch it together. Rudder can be wet.

Metal strips are criminally expensive these days, but since the fix is to keep the boat sailing, almost anything would do. If you have a salvage place nearby you're in luck.

Sheet plastic would do: 1/4"-3/8" polypropylene or polyethylene. Polycarbonate, maybe acrylic. Fair the fronts at the rudder post if you have time.
Or if you have the material, make strips up of matt and epoxy.
You won't get any rubber or adhesive to stick to a wet, bottom-painted rudder.
Well sealed marine ply strips might be a temporary fix if soaked in epoxy to help keep it from delaminating.

I would arrange the strips on the rudder parallel to the waterline. Tilted UP about 35degrees from the rudder post. I would thru bolt the strips to each other because you can't trust the wood of a tired rudder.

A damaged traditional rudder may have issues with the plank bolts at the ruddershaft.

The only wood you can successfully cover with glass for underwater is plywood. Even then you are asking for trouble. You'd have to build the rudder with the best marine ply you can afford (marine meranti BS1088) and you would have to use epoxy. Vinylester maybe.
IMCO