rudder discussions

[bill@ariel231]

"Never Glass A Plank Rudder - ebb" ... hmm.. maybe i'm lucky. A-231's is still going strong after 10 years. This wasn't necessarily my first choice but it appeared to be the best plan forward after the previous owners bungled repairs. for me the trick was (1) a very dry rudder core, (2) use of epoxy (vice polyester) with mat and cloth, (3) I sealed the bronze/fiberglass joint with '5200. no sign of delamination or water entry (i checked with a drill this year).

If A-231's rudder had been in one piece when I got it, I agree paint alone would have been the right answer.

as for sail trim.. once the rig is balanced with larger or small head sails and a a reef in the main as needed. try this when there is lots of room, light seas, don't try this in traffic...

to fall off.. (1) over sheet the jib, (2) slack the main (in really light air, backwind the main on the leeward side), (3) re-trim the sails on the new heading.

to come up... (1) slack the jib, (2) over sheet the main (in light air, pull the boom above the centerline and backwind the main), (3) re-trim to the new heading.

These sound like parlor tricks but in really light air my friends and I have used them on the race course to round the leeward mark in really light air ('cause the rudder alone will slow us down)....


cheers,
bill@ariel231
:)

[tha3rdman]

I've emntioned this before as far as sail trim, and 97's weather helm even with the main slacked luffing (and everthing in between) with the 160 there is always weather helm. I've used the sails to steer before but only short short distances since she'll never fall off. Even with just the genny, she still tends to come up.

Anti Highjack mauver - Which is why I was wondering about the rudder tending to float.

[ebb]

bill,
you are one in a hundred,
I believe the odds even greater,
of anybody else making a good job of it.

It is definitely the method and the materials.
If the subject comes up again - or if you have the time,
a short treatise on the subject would be appreaciated by 100s
if not thousands of avid rudder sheathers to be.

If you were successful, please tell us how you did it.
I would not recommend it to the unanointed.

[bill@ariel231]

Ebb

will do when i get a moment...

Bill

[Tim Mertinooke]

Here is a link to the repair that I did to my rudder for those trolling this thread in the future.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15996&postcount=167

[mrgnstrn]

Ed

Yikes! I don't know if anyone has voluntarily done this on a flat surface. Mr. Tim (A-24) has talked about hauling out on a mud berth for his rudder repair.

I'd suggest thinking about finding a place to haul out that has some slope to it... Or... maybe drying out on with some jack stands or a cradle positioned in the water before the tide runs out. The attached cartoon shows some possible waterlines. It looks like the boat should recover just fine, but wave action may put water in the cockpit/icebox/lockers... (Are there any Naval Architects in the house??)

cheers, and good luck
Bill

Sounds like you need to give that boat some legs. I think there was an article in Good Ole Boat Magazine a number of years ago where a lady beached her boat and used these poles strapped to the toerail on both sides to keep it upright while she painted the bottom. I guess it worked like a charm because the keel was relatively long so it was stable like that.

[ebb]

www.atomvoyages.com
click Articles
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SORRY:
Thought I'd check em out again, but for some *#&^@!?)(#!! reason can't get the said Article OR Project to come up!

The legs were take apart poles, I believe, with custom pads for feet, that were not lashed to the uppers but to the aft lower plate - and had lines leading from the feet fore and aft. No way could you go cruising without them.

If you carried other poles viz spinaker, my guess is to be usable for legs on an Ariel (ie lashed to the shrouds) they'd have to be at least 10'.

www.alberg30.org/maintenance/disorganized/careening
I guess technicly careening can mean leaning the boat more to one side than the other - just as it means resting the ship on its bilge. This site takes the upright approach and could possibly be a way of getting the rudder OUT if you want to dig a 30" deep hole on what you're sitting on. (You need a 28" drop to clear the top of the rudder shaft from the bottom of the rudder tube.)
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Dream of a maintenance-free s.s. and foam rudder?....this taken from a skipper's list of things to do at HAULOUT From a 'geocities' site:

"Drill hole in lowest point of rudder to drain water.
Rusty water or lots of water = bad.
Epoxy hole shut befor refloating."

[ebb]

(this could be a new thread - but it still is apropos access to the rudder)

Jim Baldwin's Sailnet article now comes up using the address in the previous post.
If whisker and spinaker poles don't have a place on your cruising A/C then this invention of Jim's is fantastic. He uses s.s. pipe/tube. Relatively common 6061T6 aluminum might work as well.

The article is not complete in that there are no closeups of the fittings. Most important is the method of attachment of a leg to the chainplate. I believe Jim temporaryly removes the aft lowers, using that plate.*

Some exploration of 'Some Legs' for the Commander or Ariel should probably be done on the hard. I have trouble 'seeing' the legs at the top 'attached' to a single point on top of the chain plate, obviously by a bolt or pin. Couldn't the leg be lashed in some fashion right to the upper shroud, which is almost vertical? In other words I would rather have a two point tie to the upper shroud in order to have a stiffer leg. One lashing at deck level, another a couple feet higher. What am I missing here?

Another thought is that if the center shroud is used, the fore and aft lowers on either side could be employed to position and steady the legs, again by lashing. Maybe - like the feet below - a plywood devise that clamps to the shrouds with a couple clamps for the leg poles could be designed. Ariels with inboard shrouds might benefit with a gizmo that clamped to the shrouds but standoff the proper distance outboard for the legs to be at a optimal angle. Seems to me that an optimal angle would be slightly knock-kneed, wider at the bottom than the top.

Another 'exploration' is necessary to articulate the footpads. Seems to me the pad to pole joint has to be a universal type - able to lay flat at whatever angle the boat is to the surface. How?

Another problem is whether the legs can or ought to be adjusted IF the boat decides to lean and a foot starts sinking?:eek:

Another issue is that the flat part of the keel is aft of the shrouds. Is there any tendancy of the A/C to nose forward or downward? An inclined beach would counter that problem if the boat is bow in. Yet most of the Ariel's sitting surface is under the companionway - the keel starts upward from a point between the two big windows in the cabin - that might put "unintended" pressure on the legs at the shrouds.

That means there is less than 6' of horizontal keel surface (in the 25' length of an A/C). And all of that is concentrated in the rear half. If you wanted to remove the rudder, it would be dicey to say the least, even tied to side of a quay.
Has anybody done this - tied off at dock side and have the tide go out to work on the bottom?
A THIRD LEG MAY BE NEEDED AT THE BOW. (just being difficult - and voluminous as somebody once said!:p )
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Anybody carrying oars (see appropriate archives) might find that they could be adapted to leg duty. Blade up with slip on footpad over the handle, and a clever, simple attachment of the blade end to the shrouds...
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
*So far as I know Jim Baldwin is the only one on the Web who has been thoughtful enough to share his Boat Legs invention. His boat is a 28' Pearson Triton, BIG sister to the A/C. He is a double circumnavigator, and MORE than obviously knows what he is doing. Don't mean to second guess or demean in any way whatsoever his methods, ways, or means. I'm positive that knowing how to stand your boat up is as important as sailing it, or climbing the mast. My intent is Ariel specific, and hopefully to get to the root of things with discussion. I could be wrong. And could be assuming too much.:confused:

[bill@ariel231]

Per Ebb's challenge (in post #253) I'll describe my method of repair for A-231's rudder.

Disclaimer and Warning:


If you have a functioning plank rudder leave it alone. This method is not a simple sheathing of the current rudder. The end product is a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. If your rudder is has a couple splits, has a solid shaft and you really, really need a boat project then this method may be for you. I have no personal objection to any approach to rudder repairs that are safe. I make no claim this is by any means a recommended method of repair to the Ariel/Commander rudder. It has however, worked for me for the last 10 years.

Problem description:

When we acquired A-231, the rudder had failed in the same manner as Tim’s on A-24 ( a vertical break from the propeller aperture to the top).
A P.O.’s attempt to repair the rudder looked to be un-reinforced thickened epoxy to glue the broken halves together. As a result, I had a series of bad repairs to address or the need to fabricate a new rudder from scratch…
I elected to sheath A-231’s rudder while keeping in mind the many failed rudders I’ve seen around boatyards. Most sheathed rudders I’ve observed have been simple affairs of 6oz cloth with no attempt to keep the actual rudder core dry. The most common failures I observed were the result of (1) a poor bond between the rudder skin and the rudder shaft, (2) freeze damage or swelling from the resulting water entry, least common was (3) trauma to the rudder skin from a grounding. Many of these fixes did more harm than good as the fiberglass skin often just trapped water and led to early failure from rot. Clearly water entry in a sheathed rudder is the root cause of failures…
A-231’s rudder is essentially a fiberglass rudder with a wood core. The difference from a traditional fiberglass fairing are: first, a thick skin over the bulk of the rudder (two layers of 6oz cloth and a layer of mat yielding a 1/8” - 3/16" skin), and second, a significant effort spent on sealing the joint between the rudder shaft and the wood core of the rudder. For A-231, the rudder shaft is sealed with both a ½ inch of thickened epoxy with a secondary seal of 3M 5200 in a groove at the fiberglass/shaft boundary.

The following entries show the steps followed in A-231’s rudder repair.

[bill@ariel231]

steps 1 and 2:________________________________________________ _____

[bill@ariel231]

step 3:________________________________________________ ___________

[bill@ariel231]

step 4:________________________________________________ __________

[bill@ariel231]

step 5:______________________________

[bill@ariel231]

The 5200 seal on top of ½” of glass may be overkill but I’m a belt and suspenders kind of guy…. Plus it was an excuse to use yet another power tool on a otherwise simple project. ;)

cheers,
bill@ariel231

ps. one last word of caution... the radius of the leading edge of the rudder will grow as a result of the additional glass. as a result, the radius of the channel in the trailing edge of the keel will also need to be increased to make room. On A-231 this was accomplished with a 1" sanding drum chucked into a RotoZip (a sort of overgrown dremel). If you omit this step the rudder will grind against the trailing edge of the keel.

[ebb]

Bill is text book on his rudder reburbishment!


If I may comment....
Fiberglass rudder with wood core imco is absolutely the correct concept.

Water or callit water vapor will get into wood that lives under water no matter what is done to encapsulate it. Nothing wrong with that except that the wood will want to swell and move. So layers of glass and matt are called for to immobilize the 'core' as much as possible.

I'd emphasize to some readers that the best plastic to use is twopart epoxy. Vinylester could be a possible second choice. Polyester should not be used in this ap.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
Wrapping the ruddershaft.
It is my opinion you can wrap the ruddershaft with CLOTH layers of glass. This isnn't clear in the cads. Observe how much room there is if you don't have the original wood rudder on your keel. The original rudder has the bronze shaft exposed with the blade carefully tabbed onto the aft side of the metal. There should be plenty of room to take a few turns of glass around the shaft. Epoxy sticks pretty well to cleaned up bronze. It will go a long way to welding the different materials together: wood, metal, frp. Including perhaps some questionable bolts and screws hidden inside the wood.
As bill says: In wrapping the shaft keep in mind the turning of the rudder. You don't want to hamper its radius/swing. I would, as bill suggests, I think, keep the wraps to 6oz cloth, no xmatt. The buildup of 6oz cloth is minimal. Two layers is good, but one or two more may be possible.
[Make up a layer test of scrap fabric and epoxy and measure the finished thickness. Wrap something bendable like cardboard of the same thinkness around the shaft while it's on the boat and see what if any limits have been added to the swing of the rudder.]
GOOD suggestion to clean out the cove in the end of the keel once the rudder is removed. Best chance you'll ever get - and you can barrier coat it too. Creating depth is good, width may be a bit of a problem, depending on how skinny your keel is overall at the rudder. (Rotary rubber drum/sanding sleeves seem to be becoming scarce. One catalog source is Klingspor, www.woodworkingshop.com
You used to be able to buy sanding sleeves/drums in sets for pretty cheap. But if you have to get singles: a 1 1/2" sleeve/drum in a drill will fit nicely the cove in the keel, coarse grit. So, of course will the 1"!!! If you are renovating the boat, it is not possible to do it without a complete set of drums.
Apply the 6oz cloth at a bias (45 degrees) around the shaft, it'll double the strength and there will be no puckerings.
Actual work-in-progress photos would have been great for this important upgrade variation. Oh well, next time!:D
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As a matter of curiousity: The original lines drawings, presumably by Alberg, shows the rudder shaft as 1 1/2" D. Almost as if the original shaft was to have been wood. The 'sternpost' is 2" across on the drawing. Our 1" bronze shaft translates to a much thinner rudder at its leading edge. Could say that fiberglassing as above brings the rudder closer to Alberg (vs Pearson) spec! And more hydrodynamic off the thicker end of the keel. I wonder if anybody will take the opportunity to add some modern foil curves to the blade and skinny down the trailing edge? A wood core fiberglass rudder would be a good opportunity, but ofcourse there would be no going back. Foil shaping may help correct stalling and steering problems some have mentioned?

[bill@ariel231]

Thanks ebb... back in 96 when i did the rudder i had no thought about photos of the small stuff (i was more worried about deck, keel & diesel issues). hopefully the next candidate (perhaps the next owner of A-24) will indulge us with pictures.

You are right. 2 part epoxy was my choice. As i think about it now, i recall the shaft end and the heel were done with 6oz cloth and thickened epoxy. I was probably used thickened epoxy and chopped glass in the joint for the rudder strap. once it set, a dremel was used to reshape the profile of the rudder in the areas that were glassed. two to three layers of bias cut 6oz cloth on the edges are the right answer. Mat won't make the sharp turn at the edges.

none of this work necessarily leaves me with less work in the spring. The rudder gets a complete health check before bottom paint is applied and the 5200 seal is checked and renewed if necessary. The joint most likely to move is the top most. The lower section of the rudder shaft isn't subject to a lot of torsion. I spend time on this check every year because while there may be a low probalility of failure, the consequence is a time consuming repair if water ever got to the core.

cheers,
bill@ariel231
:)

[ebb]

OK!
Could be said to be a good test - by any reckoning.

An underwater wood rudder on a plastic boat is incongruous to me.
It's not an eyecatching sweep of varnished coaming or accents like the cabin rails.
The original A/C rudder is a great piece of high end bronze and mahogany craftmanship.
Not only is this astonishing artwork hidden under water but it works real hard and has done so for many, for many many soggy miles - for decades.

I'd argue that the rudder should have originally been woodcore fiberglass - in keeping with the wonderful new plastic hull material and glass/balsa composite of the deck of the '60s.
I guess materials and engineering weren't up to the old tried and true back then.

But now it can be put aright!

[Westgate]

I just hauled 387 out for my first time. Overall things look pretty good. I was surprised at the lack of biofouling since the bottom hasn't seen new paint for (I'm guessing since I just bought the boat last winter) at least 4 years. I plan to remove the seven layers of bottom paint and replace with new trinidad, replace/remove all thruhulls and replace with correct seacocks and do the topsides with brightsides.

The rudder, is another story however, and seems in very poor condition. I have always felt that the rudder didn't respond as I felt it should so really this should come as no surprise. I would like to remove it from the boat for repair. It appears that one needs to remove that gudgeon strap, pull the ruddder up and move sideways and drop. Simple enough but what is the best way to take out the pins the hold the gudgeon? The pins on mine are flush with the strap. Do you just pound them out with a hammer? Can they be reset?

Any help would be great!

Cheers,


Andrew

[ebb]

Andrew, Welcome to the real world of renovation.:D
You perhaps have already started on the rudder....
Remember to take the sleeve bearing out....

I''d forensic the strap.
The strap was probably put on last at the factory, so that's the place to begin.
Strip the paint off down to the metal to see what's there and how it's put together. If it's original and tired and you are going to rebuild the rudder, you might be putting on a new gudgeon and new fastenings.
It's unlikely that all underwater bronzes are the same alloy, so things may have crystalized or leached or got tired.
Or if it's just like new, maybe not. It is bordering on antique so it'll be instructive how it was done on your boat, and you may want to rebuild or restore exactly whats there.

Photos.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
To take pins out, drill into the pin a little way (1/4"?) with a slightly undersized drillbit - to destroy the peened head. Then punch the pin out.
Can't be used again.
If you find the gudgeon strap is fastened with peened over rod then it almost certainly is pure soft copper - and will look pink. Which is what tired bronze alloys look like. That gudgeon itself couldn't take too much banging with the ballpeen hammer. Peening requires a backing iron, so you'd need someone when putting the gudgeon back on to hold something immovable against the pin on the other side.
I barely managed to pin the ruddershoe on to 338 using silicon rod. The stuff don't peen worth a damn. Down at the bottom of the boat I could clamp on a piece of iron plate as a backer - which can't be done with the gudgeon and mounted rudder in place. I should have heated presized rod pins to dull red with Mapp gas to anneal them, let them cool, position them, then attempted to peen the heads. The rudder shoe is a big ole casting and I peened the rod into chamfered holes.
Thing is, when you start peening copper alloys they start hardening again.
You'll probably use silicon bronze machine bolts for the strap when putting it back together. You might find solid copper rivets and burrs of large size and length from a woodboat building source.

[commanderpete]

The rudder doesn't look to bad to me. You could just reinforce/repair the tip.

Since you have concrete under the boat, I think you're going to need to disassemble the upper rudder shaft from the rudder in order to drop it.

The project will probably escalate into a whole new rudder.

Not sure about the handling problems you've been experiencing. Is the wood loose from the shafts?

[Westgate]

It's much worse than it looks in these pictures (good from far far from good!). The wood has eroded away along all the margins and yes it is loose on the shaft. The wood has a mossy texture and you can peel strips off with no effort at all. I have been reading about rudders and am trying to decide what to do?

1) replace with new (would have to be a dyi job)

2) encapsulate in glass as per Bill

If the wood that would make up the "core" of the glassed rudder is punky would this mean that this option is unwise to follow?

I don't worry about doing stuff I know but have not really built a rudder before.


Andrew

[ebb]

Andrew,
There's probably enough material in these forums for you to find out everything about each style of rudder.

The wood plank style you have on your boat is classic wood working. You could take that rudder apart and rebuild using it as pattern. It depends on what you find whether you go ahead with a wood plank rudder or a wood core, or a plywood, or an all plastic composite.

You have to find out how the bronze shaft is doing. Depending on the rod alloy you may or may not have corrosion inside the rudder tube - at the connection points of rudder shaft and the long plank bolts - and the end of the shaft at the shoe.. If this is all good, why not go with the traditional rudder?
You have to have some basic wood skills imco. And basic tools. This rudder uses NO glue. The pieces are finely fitted together. Which adds to its overall strength. You have a couple relatively long holes to drill sideways through the width of the plank, The plank at the bronze shaft(s) have to be coved along the edge. And you have to shape and curve the mahogany.
However, when you mount your own made rudder nothing else on the boat will faze you!
And I think putting a mahogany plank rudder together will give the most satisfaction of all the methods. Wood smells good, bronze works good and there's no sticky goop.
AND it'll last another 40 years - under water!!!

I would research these pages and look for the how-I-did-it accounts that have photos, or at least good descriptions.
And some owners here have email access, and may be willing to go brow-to-brow on the specifics of their mahogany plank rudders.


ON_LINE MANUAL* addition:
I know it's too much to ask. A step by step pictorial tutorial on how to rebuild the original rudder would be a great addition to this Forum. Could be posted in the Gallery pages. It is the only evidence of oldtime high-end wood craftsmanship on our snotty Ariel/Commanders.





If you are going with a glass over woodcore blade, the core has to be sound and well connected to the shaft. If it is wobbley you can NOT end up with a strong rudder.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________
*Nope, doesn't exist.

[Westgate]

Still thinking about rudders.......

What is the advantage of having the drift pins end up in cut-outs in the middle of the second plank (like Tim built) vs having them go all the way through both planks and be secured externally (like c'pete's barndoor)?

Maybe this is obvious but I'm not a carpenter.

[ebb]

Andrew,
Tim's photos on page 13 of this thread is a good how-to.
If you planned the curvature of the rudder, some of those bolts would not necessarily line up like that and might be longer.
I might have wanted a few longer ones going further into the outer plank. Length of bolt depends on the outline of the rudder.
Lining bolts up like that could conceivably create a 'zipper' effect.
If the rudder wanted to crack, it might chose the easiest way, which might be right up that line of nut holes.
[These 'bolts', of course, are cut to length silicone rod with custom threaded ends.]

What this method does is allow you to have no fastenings in the outer edge of the blade. It would allow some judicious blade tapering, which is a good thing. While the barn door style, where the bolts (and washers and nuts) go clear through, you can hardly round the trailing edge at all. But it ain't coming apart, or if it does, it'll still hang together.

I don't think one is better than the other. Probably have heated arguments with cold beers.

A rudder with a prop cutout like yours the situation is more complicated. Here the plan may call for actual drift pins which are blind pins you make to length that are put in matching holes in opposing planks that hold the joint in line.
The two planks with their different fasteners, bolts and pins would be drawn together with pipe clamps or the like. The drift pins would disappear completely. After drawn together the rudder is cut to shape.
When the rudder swells in the water the pins will also be holding the planks together even though there are no heads or nuts on the ends. Pins like this could be placed where no bolt could go or between widely placed bolts.

Tim screwed his long bolts into the shaft/rod in tapped holes. I would supposed the holes did not go through the the rod but were bottom tapped in about 1/2" deep. Where the shape of the rudder makes radical angles of plank, a drift pin could also be screwed into the shaft and enter blind into an appropriate hole in the wood - still doing a job of positioning and holding - but not clamping.
Makes for a strong rudder shaft - and well attached blade.

With the prop cutout rudder we have to carefully plan exactly where the fastenings go. That is why careful deconstruction of your present rudder will tell the tail. Guys who made those rudders in the 60s were pros and never missed a lick. I would essentially copy what they did. in remaking THAT rudder. Evidently all Ariel and Commander rudders were built to the same pattern, whether OB or inboard. So original rudders all have the two part bent shaft.

That said, there are probably a hundred other ways to make a rudder. Most of them almost as good.

[Westgate]

Thanks ebb! Your advice, as usual, is spot on. Going to the boat this weekend to start in on renos. My dilemma is every day she is out increases the overall cost of the haulout ($25/day for time on the hard adds up fast!). After much thought I have decided to focus on the hull so I can get her back in the water ASAP. Once she is back in I can order the materials and do the rudder rebuild rather than being hurried along worried about boat yard costs. The rudder will have to be fixed before she sails again for sure. I figure I'll just do an install like Tim M using the carriage bolts to attach the gungy gungeon. This I'm sure I can do using scuba (I'm a forgetting something???). With a brand new rudder in hand the install should be easy esp if I do all the prep beforehand. I figure I'll hang the old one on the wall in the dining room as a conversation piece. Hell it's almost as old as I am!

I'm sure I'll have more questions come Monday........

PS Discussions (I don't get into heated arguements!) over cold beers in a pub near your boat yard sounds very appealling. Although I must admit I would prefer a nice Meritage!

[ebb]

.....days become weeks, weeks become months, months turn into years......

That rudder don't LOOK all that bad.
What you do to the hull to get back into the water,
do the same to the rudder. Scraping, sanding, bottom paint.
It'll be fine. Until next time....

How are things at the bottom of the rudder. How is the rudder shoe?
Use a flashlight and try to look into the rudder tube where the shaft enters.
You are looking for news here. Scrape a little. Knock that paint off the gudgeon just to see what's there. Check where the strap goes round the shaft. Give the rudder a shake. A pleasant fix is a new sleeve bearing, amazing what a tight rudder feels like under the skipper's arm.

Don't recall the beer, I'll see if it's at the market right now, CHEERS!
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

[My favorite these days is an 8% ale called Eye of the Hawk, Mendocino Brewing, CA. Best balance of hops and sugar of any micro in this area. No taste of alcohol, pours a nice controlled head - world class brew that comes in 12oz bottles, which I consider a big plus.]
Imco, as always.

[Westgate]

Ebb,

Where can I purchase the manganese bronze strap that I am going to need for the new gungeon. I checked online metals but they don't seem to carry the strap just rod?


Many thanks,

Andrew

[Tim Mertinooke]

When I was replacing my rudder strap because the original one was spent, I too had trouble finding a source for what I needed. A prominent member of this board came to my rescue and through an act of kindness, sent me what I needed at no cost. I am very willing to return the favor with the stock I have left over. The width is 7/8" at one end and 1" at the other as I had trouble cutting it even, but I think that should be enough to work for you. If you are interested, feel free to PM or e-mail your address and I'll ship it to you.


http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/bronze_stock_1.JPG

http://www.mrmert.com/ariel24/images/rudder/bronze_stock_2.JPG

[ebb]

Never asked you Tim how you managed using that 1/8" 655.

I'll bet the original Ariel straps are pure soft copper, otherwise once you thread the bar through the rudder and attempt to bend it onto the keel, how would you do it?
Probably have bent the bar into a smaller angle than 90degrees.
Still, how did you get that hardass bronze bent the rest of the way?
Did you anneal it first?
Seems to me there would be no way to get it flat enough to drill the holes.

You may have predrilled the holes on one side, but how could you be sure where the holes would come out on the other?
If you had a wall nearby you could jack the strap closed with a two-by.
And then hold it tight the same way with narrow bar - to finish that important drilling.

What was the trick?


Salvage and scrap yards used to be a place to spend Saturday mornings. 'Course you're never sure what bronze was brass and what stainless was really stainless. And copper bar is probably a junk yard's cash flow these days. Junk yards were fun.
If you can explain to Andrew and me how you did it, I'll talk to the prominent bloody know-it-all about digging up another piece of strap.

[Tim Mertinooke]

how did you get that hardass bronze bent the rest of the way?...What was the trick?

I bent the bar enough so that it could be threaded through the opening behind the shaft. Once in place I was able to get the bolt through one end and then fanagle the other in so that a little bit of thread was showing. I then screwed on the nut and that clamped it. What made the job really obnoxious was the copious amount of 5200 dripping all over me while doing this. On land was the easy part, when I took that strap off underwater I had a hell of a time getting it back on.

Here is the post that showed the strap once I was done.
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=15362&postcount=132

[ebb]

Tim, Nice work!!!
The strap is bent perfectly. I still don't know how you did it.

I had a couple fanagles. One of them was at least six feet long. Coming across Country one March in my pickup some SOB in Ohio stole them both.


Have an idea that would make life easier to get the rudder shaft free from the grudgeon.
OK, take that 1/8" stuff, or better something thicker like 3/16" or 1/4" 655, and bend that perfect 'U' loop Tim has there. Then, right in the center of the loop, cut it in half. Cut it in half into equal 'J' pieces.

With the rudder in place, position and mount one J piece. It's OK here to use fully threaded carriage bolts. Where the bolts come through the KEEL make holes in the fiberglass for a washer and nut (the keel SHOULD be solid in this area) so that when the bolts are cinched the nuts end up FLUSH with the keel surface with the bolt ends sticking out. If you are using 1/4" bolts the hole including a split washer won't need to be more than 1/2" deep.

Then take the other half gudgeon slip it on the bolts and cinch it up with more nuts. You have clamped the midway rudder shaft in place.

To remove the rudder unscrew the nuts, take off the 'J' half gudgeon and (after preparing the shaft in the cockpit) move the shaft UP and sideways out of the shoe.

You do have a slit down the middle of the gudgeon.
My thinking on this is that the fitting itself does little work, It's there as a keeper. Most rudders are able to rise a little when lifted from below. The purpose of the gudgeon is to make sure the rudder drops back down into the recess in the shoe. The six feet of rudder shaft is held at the top with the sleeve-bearing and at the bottom where 3/4" of it is buried in the shoe. The rudder blade keeps the shaft straight - SO it could be said that the gudgeon is essentially a backup. An essential backup.
But you see what I"m getting at: there is little action by the rudder that could bend the split gudgeon apart.

And if the 'J's did get bent a little, bang them back in place. It's impossible to see how they could get bent.

[YES, well, it could happen that you go aground, the rudder is jambed up against the hull no longer in the shoe. Then some sideways action with the weight of the boat bends the rudder where it enters the tube. OK, there's is an argument for a full strap. Therefor 1/4" bronze for extra beef in a split version]
There are probably some fancy hydrodynamic fastener options. But this should work good enough. With carriage bolts, you always will have a clue which side the nuts are on. I would put all nuts on with nevah-seize and try sculpting small mounds of putty or rubber on the exposed nuts for protection.

It's not unreasonable to make our rudder removable, correct?
You boats with plank rudder blades in the North East who winter on the hard could remove and keep them plumped up and happy until spring in a cozy salt water tub. No shrinkage, hey what!

There you go,
is it not a simple method to take the rudder off without removing the gudgeon?
This is only an idea at this point
and imco as always.

Thing about working under water is that nobody can hear you cussing:rolleyes:
And it WAS you Tim, wasn't it, who invented the in water method of rudder removal....? Did you use the boom?
This is a real option that avoids the expense of yard hoisting the boat.
It's also a viable cruiser option, a way of getting a damaged rudder off a floating boat.

[Westgate]

Ebb,
You got yerself a deal. I'll PM you details!

ANdrew

[Tim Mertinooke]

Andrew, I'm the one with the extra bronze stock. PM me! :cool:

[Westgate]

Of course you are. Just got back from my first reno weekend (see new thread) and I'm a bit out of it! Sorry about that!


And thanks for your great offer!

Andrew

[Westgate]

Rudder saga continues.

Worked on the rudder this weekend. Decided to remove it from the boat. Easier said than done. Had to dig the old slit trench w/o a shovel. Used my trustly wonder bar (gotta love that tool!). Cleaned up the rudder and reshaped it after the digging project. Removed alot of old bad wood. Some epiphytic damage on the lower margin. Overall came out loking pretty good. I believe it still needs replacement but will suffice for the next month or so. Thanks to Tim for the replacement metal for my grundy grundeon!

Shoe looks good as far as I can tell.

Tighened up all the screws/bolts and the rudder feels better. Repreened the heads as they were out of sorts after the adjustment. Shaft is very red (and blurry!) in parts.......replacement looming.

Also followed Tim's example and added some thickened to the exit point of the rudder tube. Will sand it down when I do the hull. Sorry about the crappy picture. I just can't see that damn camera screen in the sunshine!

Andrew

[ebb]

Looks like a 3-plank rudder there! Wonder if it's original?
Does indeed look good, except for 'incidentals' on the bottom edge.
Third plank out might have been attached with lags.

Copper (pink) color on a supposed bronze (gold) shaft would not be a good sign.
It would mean the alloy was high zinc and the zinc has leached leaving a porous copper behind. Leaching is INTERNAL alloy galvanic action. Does not require anothedissimular alloy nearby. In the case of a copper alloy - too much zinc for salt water immersion.
If you get serious about making a new rudder, I strongly suggest you go with silicon bronze. So you can keep the alloys in the rudder all the same. High zinc manganese bronze should NOT be used underwater. Nor stainless. I think this is beyond 'my opinion'.
Prepare for a nosebleed on the price!!! ($53.31 a foot +s&h for 1" S.B. rod from Onlinemetals)

Impressive action there!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
Getting bronze for a boat is a big problem these days. Nearly all marine sources are orientated to stainless steel. Silicon rod is still available usually, along with a range of fasteners from SOME marine catalogers. S.B. sheet and bar is impossible to find in small quantity off-the-street sales. As the woodenboat forum says: you have to find fabricators in your area. They may have left-overs from a job because they too have to order 'minimum quantities'.
Here are three non-ferrous suppliers that show phone numbers on their net pages, it may be a friendly sign.
Rancocas Metals in New Jersey - 800-762-6382
Atlas Metals in Denver - 800-662-0143
Busby Metals Hauppauge NY 800-552-8729. / 631-434-3400 (sometimes get better action with a local number)
There is no indication from woodenboat forum experience that these suppliers with internet sites will send you a 1 foot piece of bronze in the mail.

BUT TRY Phil at Metal Service Center*, 7743 Bell Rd, Windsor CA, 707-838-8088. The estate metal and wood shop here where I work buys small quantitys and custom pieces of all kinds of metals constantly from them. No problem. Maybe they UPS. Remember you are in the boat repair business.

* from whom I ordered my original Everdur from. I got NO break in the price. (gold)
One metal fabricator in my area is Lux Metals in Santa Rosa CA. They, or actually Dean, welded my silicon bronze rudder shaft and strap armature together. Beautiful piece of work. (platinum)
They never returned to me some S.B. sheet I had to quantity buy for the job.
I mention these to show that every metro area has some sort of access to specialty materials.
Always E X P E N S I V E .

[Westgate]

A three planker indeed! Looks old as dirt so I figure the real Mackoy. Thanks for the shout about the bronze. I guess if I convert to Si bronze then I'll have to change my shoe. The shaft is in sad shape but I think it will hold for a bit.

Well start to scout out options.


Andrew

[ebb]

There is a 'rudder shoe discussion' on the board here about the manganese question.

The official designation of manganese bronze is that is is a BRASS. It is a pig in a poke.* There is a bit of manganese added to the copper and zinc that makes it quite strong. For example: 58% copper/38% zinc/ 4% manganese. It's as if the M. was a catalyst for two soft metals, like polyester resin, resulting in a much harder material.

I had a conversation once with Roger Winiarski the owner of Bristol Bronze.
Most of their castings are done in M.B. Most of their castings NOW are one off above the waterline casting for mega yachts, and mega retros last I heard. They do have a number of castings in their catalog that they must get calls on. And they do have a few silicon bronze fittings.

Roger said that Bristol supplied all the original bronze for the Pearson Ariels.
I just cannot believe that Bristol supplied a brass for the underwater rudder parts on the Ariel. He did some casting for me and in the two part cast gudgeon he said he used manganese. And I called him on it. And he started changing the subject. I will probably not use the fitting.
[and you know, I keep saying who am I to take issue with THIS guy...]

I had a new rudder shoe cast locally in silicon bronze and I will be inserting a S.B. rudder shaft into it.

There is no real way you can stop an alloy that wants to destroy itself from the inside out like a brass will do IN sea water. I believe mounting a zinc on the shoe is only a palliative.
I also believe that the proper bronze has to have been originally used. There are evidently plenty of Ariels that have their shoes in perfect condition after 45 years in brine. Only silicon bronze or some other high percentage copper alloy could have survived that long unchanged.

Winiarski could be wrong and it is other early Pearson classes that have had problems with their shoes.

However, 338 did show corrosion on its shoe, but the Ariel came to me with a bastard rudder with a stainless shaft. I assumed the combination caused the problem with the shoe. There was a zinc attached to the shoe with one longer through bolt. The side the zinc was on was most corroded with a whitish coating on the bronze pitting (when dry) that I assumed was zinc. Logically it should have been the other way around, with the stainless shaft being eaten away - but it was perfect. How long the rudder had been there is unknown. SO somehow Winiarski could be right - that BRASS was used for the rudder shoe in the Ariel.


But that has to be one of the most unfortunate admissions by a professional purveyor of bronze fittings that I'll ever hear.:eek:

*Alberg might have said (had he known!) "Kopa grisen i sacken!"
There's a cat in the sack - what you think is a fat suckling pig is a stray cat.
What kind of pig is in your shoe? What kind of 'bronze' is in your fitting?

[Bill]

Rudder shoe discussion is at: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=583

[ebb]

Here is a very short paper by Prof Stephen C. Dexter from the University of Delaware Sea Grant Program. Short but compact with implications. Obviously I'm fascinated by the subject - and there are many commonly held misconceptions this read might start to unravel. Including my own!

This paper has a revealing galvanic series table referenced 'in flowing seawater'.
Which is exactly where we want to be when discussing the problem.
Manganese bronze and silicon bronze are cheek by jowl with each other in the table having a close voltage range. Here I discover the 300 s.s. are closer to the cathodic or noble end of the series.

So my assumption that copper alloys are more noble than stainless is WRONG.
Stainless has more problems than bronze like crevice corrosion and changing voltages when covered with slime.
And I might add, that while the voltage range is amazingly close with M.B. and S.B., the one overloaded with zinc is more prone to falling apart than the nearly pure copper alloy.

This table shows why we do not want 300 steel in our bronze shoe. And it explains the phenomena I saw on my Ariel's rudder shoe.

It also shows the surprising over-lapping voltage range between manganese bronze and silicon bronze. Either one can be anode or cathode in a galvanic couple "depending on exact exposure conditions." So that's a good reason to add a third more anodic metal in the form of zinc - if you have that going with those two..... M. bronze shoe and S. bronze shaft, or......

Galvanic Corrosion Final
www.ocean.udel.edu/mas/masnotes/corrosion.pdf

[Westgate]

Worked on the rudder a bit more this w-end. Dug out all the bad wormy wood and backfilled with thickened epoxy. Decided to give her a few coats of epoxy. I don't intend to "seal" it but rather using the resin to beef up the punky wood, smooth the surface and fill some of the cracks.

Two more coats and this baby is done. At least for the time being!

Andrew

[bill@ariel231]

just as a belt and suspenders measure, i you might want to smear some 3M 5200 along the joint between the resin and the rudder shaft. The dissimilar material may leave you with a path for water intrusion into the rudder core. While the rudder is out, for an afternoon worth of fiberglass and sanding, you could fix it for good....

cheers,
bill@ariel231
;)

By the way you are really close to having a long term solution here (mine has been in service about 11 years now with no sign of splitting or water entry, take a look at posts #259-#263 in this thread).

[ebb]

gotta listen to bill on this.
5200 in the metal to wood seams if you are launching now is a good call.

Depending on how much water is still 'logged' in the wood of a rudder, it could conceivably be successful to GLASS a rudder with a few layers of CLOTH and EPOXY. Arguably the wood is still swelled throughout most of its interior and is 'equalized'. If the water content in the wood was close to 20%, but the surface dry enough for regular epoxy laminations, who's to say it wouldn't work?
If your rudder there in the photos has been very dry, back in the water the swelling of the wood WILL crack the thickened epoxy. There is always the exception, the stuff may not crack because the rudder is old enough to be almost inert. The blade is also well shaped and thin enough to be successfully subdued with frp but not gelled epoxy.
Baking the planks in the sun would, could shrink and loosen it up and open up the surface radically. And immersion in water will tighten it up. Swell seams closed again. And reduce the wobble of the planks on their bolts. Wood is amazing.

In my book the only certain useful epoxy on an old plank rudder is to dress the wood in penetrating epoxy. No more than two coats, loading creates a gummy mess. Goes for a brand new one also. The commercial stuff is very flexible and would not contest the movement of the wood. It would be a sealer and provide a better base for epoxy primer and bottom paint. And add worm protection. You can make a credible penetrating sealer by thinning combined two-part laminating epoxy with xylene.

If you are going to use the present rudder as is - as a core for fiberglassing - you will have to put many layers of cloth to defeat the core's swelling. It may be nearly impossible.
If you strip the old mahogany from the shafts, you could replace it with plywood. The method is described here in this thread. (see pg 11, 153>) But does not describe the glassing step.
You'd rout in coves where the bolts are and sandwich them between two layers of meranti-aguaply. You may not need even to remove the bolts from the shaft. Then apply glass cloth around well prepared bronze rod and
shaped ply. Ply is not going to swell like planks.

[What countless skippers (well, maybe they could be counted:p) have discovered is that both polyester and epoxy allow moisture and or water vapor to enter what the plastics are covering. Depending on how thorough the glass job, it's only a matter of time.
The rudder with the least future problems has a closed cell pvc foam core.]

What's good about this plywood method is that you can use what you have - if the metal is in good condition - and end up with another 40year rudder. Your investment is in the plywood, epoxy and cloth.
imco, ebb

[ebb]

Bill@Ariel231 HAS SUCCESSFULLY COVERED A PLANK RUDDER.

I would go ahead NOW and do the deed exactly as he describes.

[Westgate]

OK will do!

What purpose does the underlay of matt serve in Bill's method? Why not use just 3 x cloth?

Andrew

[bill@ariel231]

the mat just builds up thickness faster than an equivalent amount of cloth and it handles irregular surfaces pretty well. given you have covered the surface with resin, the cloth alone may be a good approach. i went with 1 layer of 1.5oz mat and two layers of 6oz cloth. 5 to 6 layers of 6oz cloth may be the equivalent for depth of the whole laminate.

the area that will need particular attention will be where the shaft enters and exits the rudder. the topmost joint is the one most likely to twist. This area in particular got attention on A-231 with the core cut back a bit replaced with thickened epoxy, 'glass and a bit o'3m5200 added for good measure

good luck
bill@ariel231:)

p.s. we of course look forward to pictures, unfortunately i failed to photograph my rudder as a work in progress.

[Westgate]

I applied a few layers of glass to my rudder this w-end. Following Bill's how to guide first dug out then backfilled problem locations with thickened. Next applied 3 layers of cloth to each side. Then I added 2 layers to each edge. Still to come one more layer on the side and then a final wrap around on the edge. That will give a four layer side and a three layer edge. Of course I sanded each layer smooth before laying on the next. Didn't take as many pics as I should have but the epoxy was flying!!!

Andrew

[bill@ariel231]

Andrew

looks great... am i missing something. where is the hole for the rudder strap (maybe it's just the resolution of the picture)?

mean while.. i've opened the top of my rudder (A-231) for a look around after a 11 years of service. yup, as expected the core was moist around the entry point for the rudder shaft. and mostly dry again about a hand span away. I'll post some pictures this weekend.

cheers,
bill@ariel231:)

[Westgate]

No nothing missing. I plan to rout out a new slot for the grungeon strap. This will be done in the region of thickened epoxy you see in the picture.

One thing that I'm a bit unclear about is the whole issue of water in the rudder. Now a "naked" rudder must be saturated with water. I know mine was even with all that bottom paint. An encapsulated rudder may also get a bit wet. So what's the difference between these scenarios. Does the encapsulation provide a better environment for rot (lack of fresh seawater exchange, low O2 gradient, darkness?).

I am hoping that this rudder glass job will provide me with service until at least the next haulout. Maybe, if I'm lucky, longer than that. I feel good about the rudder itself now but the bronze is is fairly poor condition.

Will post finished product pics shortly.

Andrew

[bill@ariel231]

Andrew

for me, skinning the rudder it was a chance to bind together a loose collection of parts with a mix of prior repairs into a solid whole. A side benefit is a smooth skin. it's actually pretty dry in there since the skin has not delaminated. i make a habit to check this every season by sounding the rudder with a mallet or screw driver handle. if it were really soaked, i'd strip the glass back, dry it out and start again.

not too worried about rot, it takes both water AND air to be an issue. This is the first season i've seen any change on A-231, and the repair is a small region where the rudder shaft enters the blade. I opened the rudder out of curiosity as much as any other reason.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

ps. Now i understand what you are doing with the slot for the rudder strap (i did the same thing with a dremel).

[ebb]

Andrew,
How 'bout that! Rudder looking good - those open-end wrenches should add a whole lota strength to the layup!;)


BIG LITTLE WORK.
Dremel has no sawblade arbor cutters except itty bitty teeny weeny ones. For a long time I've used a #542 wheel to cut and work frp. Especially tight curves. But Dremel in their wisdom decided to obsolete them (they were a 1" scalloped metal wheel with carbide grit on both sides - which wore out too quick for me) - now there is #543 which is similar but has the grit only on the bottom of the wheel. Now it can't do any slice cutting. But you can sculpt with the grit on the bottom. $16 an arbored bit.:eek:

CUT FRP WITH DREMEL #426!
I was forced to try the 1 1/4" #426 reinforced (carborundum?) cut-off wheels. They come 5 to a pack for around $10, you assemble one onto an arbor and cut fiberglass reinforced plastic to your heart's content. They are thinner than the grit blade, cut deeper, cut quickly, throw little glass dust. Recently had to cut about 20' of 1/8" thick frp. That was cutting down into the surface and following a line. Don't think I changed at all the diameter of the one wheel I used. Very:cool:

The only problem was lugging the tool constantly.:rolleyes:

[Westgate]

I bought my first dremel tool in 1991 and I still use the same one:). Sometimes have to smack it to get it to start (brushes are prob very worn down!). I bought their flex head attachment which makes working in some situations easier. Gotta remember to keep the tool out of the dirt.

It is hard to lay glass in 20 knots of wind hence the place holder wrenches!!:D

[Westgate]

Well the rudder is finally finished. Four layers FRP all round. I think I used 6 OZ cloth but I don't really know fibreglass?? Came out pretty good. Doesn't look so in these pictures but the surface is like glass. Had some real problems with bubbles forming under the matt in the first few layers. Worked like crazy to get them out but they just kept forming. This wasn't a problem in the last two layers. Funny struggling with this made me completely understand the principle of vaccum bagging even though before I really hadn't a clue what is was all about!! I guess the rudder wasn't fully sealed even though I had covered it with two coats of resin. Just needs some bottom paint and we'll hang her back up. Naturally the yard moved my boat last week so that means I'll have to dig another bloody trench! Maybe I'll take shovel this time!!

Anyway here are a few pics. The close ups show the areas top and bottom that I cut out and filled with thickened prior to glassing. You can also see some of those bubbles. Oh I will also need to cut in the new grudgeon slot.

Andrew

[bill@ariel231]

Andrew.

it looks good, hope to see it installed soon.

:)

[carl291]

On #259 which I recently purchased, the rudder was already removed and laying in the yard. It had been sheathed in fiberglass, it has the 2 piece shaft, the top shaft was hollow thin walled stainless steel, bent and shaped to clear a prop. The bottom shaft was bronze that had 4 ground flat areas with 3/8 stainless wood screws holding the shaft to the rudder. I had second thoughts about even taking it because it appeared to be destined for the trash heap. Today after reading this thread I went out and took a grinder to the fiberglass to see what lay beneath, Well to my surprise there is a new oak rudder attached to that shaft. I ground down one side and found the stainless shaft was held on to the rudder by 2 sheet rock screws, also, it is a 2 plank design and the planks are held together by 2 per side fiberglass 2.5wide x4.5 long x1/4 thick straps which are countersunk and screwed to the rudder. When feathering the edge to remove the coating on the opposite side I found the fiberglass didn't stick to the wood. I was able to slide a gasket scraper under the glass and remove the entire side with no grinding at all. There is also no bevel for the lower shaft, it is cut back flat for the shaft to clear the hull.
My questions are : Should I cut the leading edge back a couple of inches and replace with new wood to allow for a bevel for mounting a new 1 piece shaft? Why didn't the glass stick to the wood? It doesn't appear that this rudder was ever used, which is very very fortunate for the boat owner judging from what I found as a repair. Should this rudder be sheathed in fiberglass when I finish with repairs? Thanks

[ebb]

Hello carl291'
bill231 has to lead you out of this one!

The rudder you describe sounds like a nightmare to me. It sounds like everything wrong that could be wrong was done to it. Really. It even sounds like polyester was used instead of epoxy. The s.s. tube is insane, oak should never be sheathed with glass, and so forth. Perhaps Bill will help you find a way out.
But others on this Board have talked of their experiences, and some have posted pictures.

Photos will help if you can post some. It is hard to 'see' the rudder even as you describe it. It sounds to me like you should build a new rudder. The one you got won't fly!

What is your experience with fiberglass and two part plastic? Many people here have built and/or rebuilt rudders for their Ariels. Pick a style you might like to do and start from there. Do you need a rudder with an aperture? Do you feel OK with a plywood rudder? Do you want an traditional rudder of bronze and mahogany? How about a fiberglass and foam one? etc.etc.

[bill@ariel231]

Carl

I agree with Ebb.. we'll need to pictures for consultation. From the description of the materials it sounds like you will be better off starting with a new rudder built to the drawings in moderator Bill's book. Plank, Plywood or foam could all be built to those dimensions.

good luck
bill@ariel231:(

[carl291]

Ebb & Bill ,
Thanks for the reply, I tried to load pictures today but I'm on dial up and after an hour of trying gave up.
I think you both confirm my feelings on simply starting over from scratch, which is what I thought when I first viewed the rudder. It's a pity someone worked a nice piece of oak into firewood.
The only work I've done with fiberglass and resin is with race car body parts, mounting and bonding fiberglass body panels to steel frames and such.
The plywood sheathed rudder seems a good alternative, I'll have to revisit that post.
Ironically I also just bought a Pearson Electra that had been in covered storage and not used in 18 years, It came with 3 rudders, the original mahogany, a plywood sheathed and a composet. All of which are good , go figure,

[ebb]

Starting on pg11 of this thread, this method uses plywood to build the rudder.
It would be most useful for a rudder with an aperture, and relatively simple and elegant way for a single piece straight shaft

It uses the same 1" silicon bronze rod for the shaft and smaller available bronze rod drilled through - or tapped into the shaft could be done without welding.`
I believe the plywood could be sheathed or wrapped in glass or just sealed and epoxied if you want the traditional/restored look of plank married to the shaft.
Without thinking twice, I would use Hydrotek meranti plywood from a well established dealer. British Standard: BS 1088. No american plywood merits this high grade. It is perfect plywood if you are following mrgnstrn's method because it is clean, tight, voidless, modestly priced material for woodworking tools It would make a really fine plywood rudder imco.

This rudder when sealed well will probably take extended drying out periods if the boat is pulled for the winter or for traveling.
If put together with good epoxy it would last another 40 years. Damage would be fairly easy to repair - and if it had to be wrapped with fiberglass later to keep it going, that could be accomplished simply. BS-1088 meranti is engineered from red lauan. Imco it will do better than any other plywood underwater BUT edges must be totally sealed.

It will make the tapering and a thin trailing edge that much easier. I have bought meranti dead flat, every sheet of amerkin ply has a built-in curve. Flat material will be so much easier to taper with mrgnstrn's method. Might even factor in a modern foil shape by spreading microlight filler on the flats and shaping with a belt sander - adding a light fabric skin to protect the surface.

[carl291]

ebb,
Where would I get that plywood from, an exotic wood dealer?
I don't want to reinvent the wheel, but I was thinking that a problem with rudders is the loose pins or rods in the rudder. How about if I miiled an 1/8 grove in the rudder shaft about 3/4 " deep and 75 percent of the rudder lenght, slip an 1/8 bronze plate(about 10" wide) in the groove drilled. pinned and peened the shaft and plate. Then "Swiss"cheese drilled the plate to lighten it and to add in gluing the two plywood halves together. Would this make the rudder too heavy? Would this be the framework for a foam and glass rudder? Thanks

[ebb]

carl, There you go! That could work.

Milling that groove could be pricey. You'd have more time at the machineshop for the number of machine screw bolt holes. They would create bumps in the sides of the shaft that turns into the groove in the keel post. Could be done, but a pesky problem.

A shallow groove as an absolute register for the 1/8" plate is a thought - and then have it welded. Everdur 655 welds well. Bronze plate edge welded along the blade length of the shaft would hold forever I think even if you don't groove it to help the welder position it. Remember when you do the machining that the key way for the tiller head relates 100% to whatever you do below in the blade area. And the keyway is another expense along with the inset on the bottom of the shaft for the shoe.

To me welding is cleaner and simpler than a bunch of mechanical fastenings and a deep groove that arguably weakens the shaft. Also the expense of material and labor will knock yer socks off! But the idea of clamping the 10" plate on in your method is a fertile one - not discounting it - just that I think welding is simpler and stronger.


338's (third try at a) rudder is waiting in the shop to complete. I choose to use 2" wide 1/8" strips of bronze welded to the shaft in narrow 'V's. The strips, while vee'd are welded to the back third of the shaft rather then off the sides. This is to minimize the diameter of the rudder turning in the groove in the keel post. I have three of these 'V's - one at the top, one near the bottom, and one in the middle. They stick out 4", 8" and 14". Doesn't sound like much weight added, but much more than the original rod added to the weight of the mahogany plank rudder.

I will be using structural pvc foam for the core and glassing. It will end up weighing a lot more than the original wood rudder, no matter how I try to keep the weight down. Even if I hole saw out holes in the V struts.
There has to be method to the lightening holes too - you don't want to end up with a weak web of metal.

Swiss cheesing your center fin/plate will help a lot. But shaping the plate along its length will cut weight too. If you are making the traditional round shaped rudder you could proportionately mimic the shape on the plate. But how much plate is open to discussion. A single welded on fin or welded on non-continuous weight-saving tabs is a very good idea to build the blade on to.

Center plate a good idea for the plywood rudder. imco. I don't know how much of a fin is needed to anchor the ply to the shaft. I'm always surprised at how skimpy engineers design these sort of things. But it all would be glued together solid with epoxy - probably adding a few layers of glass around the shaft. Done correctly it will be amazingly strong, Could bury mechanical fastenings through the plywood layers and fin for absolute insurance.

I would entertain the idea of swapping out the fancy plywood for divinylcell pvc foam. Use fancy foam instead of plywood. Then decide how much glass fabric you would be comfortable with for the shell. This method while it sounds similar depends on the fiberglass skin for most of its strength.
Glass and epoxy are also weight producers.
A neat trick I saw once is to hole saw openings through the foam (after the foam is fitted, faired. and glued to the shaft and appendages) before glassing. Then glue strips of fiberglass cloth one side to the other through the holes. Then plug the holes with the foam plugs again, fair, and lay on the finish layers of cloth.
How many tie holes for an Ariel rudder? 3 or 4, more maybe? Up to you. But this method is as good as any mechanical fastening could possibly make it imco.
Not only does this provide 'I-beam' structure - it also lessens the chance of the shell layers delaminating off the foam!!! PVC foam and epoxy are friendly, but fabric to fabric insurance is soothing. USE 100% SOLIDS NON-BLUSHING LAMINATING EPOXY. 1 to 1 or 2 to 1.

Why not post pics of your ideas for feedback.

[carl291]

Wow , nearly a year later I have some pictures of the rudder and still no further along on a solution. The question is this rudder worth salvaging? Also is is pic. of the "new" stainless rudder shaft... very sea worthy isn't it??

[JurisG]

Hi All,

I'm the proud new owner of Pearson Ariel Hull#426. I've read quite a bit of this thread, but haven't yet found answers to my specific questions, so I hope someone can help. I'll post pictures of my rudder below - she's looking pretty creaky (I can bend the outer third back and forth like a thin sheet of plastic) and looks fairly well rotted.

Does anyone here have an opinion on whether or not I should attempt a rebuild? Should I just reinforce it with some metal straps (and if so, what metal should the hardware be)? How risky is that as a low budget fix?

I'm tempted to just take it apart using the Ariel Association Manual instructions, draw it in CAD, and just run a new one on my buddy's CNC Shopbot. If I do that, which type of wood should I use? And what should I coat it with?

Sorry for all the questions - I'm sure there will be more to come. Thanks everyone for contributing to such a valuable forum.

Juris Grauds
Hull, Ma

Note: I just realized I posted this to the wrong thread and will re-post in the rudder rebuild thread. Thanks and sorry.

file:///D:/My%20Documents%20%282%29/My%20Pictures/Boat%20Restoration/March%2021%202009/Boat_Rudder/CIMG5871.JPG
file:///D:/My%20Documents%20%282%29/My%20Pictures/Boat%20Restoration/March%2021%202009/Boat_Rudder/CIMG5871.JPG

[bill@ariel231]

At first glance, the rudder looks to be in good shape. recommend sanding off the paint to have a good look. if there is no rot, you may just have to tighten up the thru bolts and repaint with bottom paint.

if you want to fabricate a new one, the original planks were mahogany.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

PS. By the way, you might want to put a Zinc on your prop shaft, the photos imply the last season of use did not have one. ;)

[ebb]

Welcome aboard!
There should be almost enough here from others on a traditional rebuild.
I would take all the paint off the rudder as a first step.
Then you can see exactly what you have..
and decide what you are going to do.

What ever your experience level I think making an original mahogany rudder is your first consideration.
That rudder you have there has survived 45 years and did pretty damn good.
I believe the original Pearson rudder was a beautiful piece of traditional woodwork. It must have been to hold together for more than 4 decades!

Honduras mahogany is still available and is the wood of choice.
Second choice would be old growth teak. Probably unavailable or incredibly expensive. However you don't need too much.


But once you get it stripped you know if you want to save it.
There may be too many issues.
You have to see how the bronze shaft and rods have held up.


If you are going to take the rudder out of the boat, follow the drill.
Remember to undo the rudder strap!
And look for and back out the set-screw(s) on the rudder-head, etc.
Check out the 'tiller head' threads in the Tech section of the Forum if you need to. There may be innovations from former skippers in and around this fitting.

[Westgate]

Juris:
I was in exactly the same boat last year. We hauled out and figured a new rudder was absolutely necessary. After I dropped it from the boat, sanded it down and tightened up the screws it vastly improved the overall look and feel of the rudder.

After it dried out I also laid down a few layers of glass following Bill's methods. I feel my rudder is better than new now. I was really dreading a new rudder build b/c of cost and time. The wood and silly bronze rod will set you back a few $$ to say the least! Better to spend this $$ on things you really need.

While a new rudder would provide a new level of confidence in your boat, look at yours closely before heading down that road. Like Ebb said 45 years isn't bad but I don't think most of our rudders are even close to retirement just yet:).

Andrew

[JurisG]

Thanks for your input everyone!

If I am going to skip the full rebuild, I am wondering if I can get away with not dropping the rudder at all. There is no play in the steering (out of the water, anyways) so I think the mechanism is ok - it is just that outer plank that is loose. What if I take a rotary sander to it, and the wood underneath looks ok? Since those screws look impossibly hard to get to (and are covered by 40 years of bottom paint), maybe I should just drill some holes and add some metal strap reinforcements? Has this been done before or is it totally poor form? If it is doable, what would be the best place to put them and what would be the best type of metal to use?

If I bother to drop the rudder, I have a feeling I am going to go all out and just cut a new one.

While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.

-Juris

[Bill]

While I'm here - does anyone know if my boat has a bilge plug? I can't seem to find one.-Juris

OFF TOPIC! Please Search and then ask in a proper thread or a new one. (BTW - please describe just what is a "bilge plug" when you do. :confused:)

[ebb]

"draining keel" are words the Search bar accepts.
Whether it gets to what you want you still have to find it. b Sometimes frustrating.
As I recall it, at least one owner installed a drain plug of some sort
which he unscrewed to let the water out of the encapsulated keel when his boat was out of the water.

[Westgate]

Here is what I did.

Let the rudder dry out for a few days.

Sanded in down to bare wood. Had to remove some of old rotten wood but was able to maintain the shape of the rudder. I also dug out some boring creatures. (By boring and do NOT mean not entertaining!).

Along the trailing margin there are a series of lag screws that hold on that troublesome third plank. Dig out the boat paint until you can seat a slotted screw driver in there. Torque these babies down. This will snug things up.

I think I also torqued the other fittings but don't remember the details. If you see a fastener and can tighten it up do so.

Seal with a couple of coats of epoxy. Then fill in the missing bits with thickened. Sand this down all fair and smooth.

Follows Bill's post about sealing up the rudder post and gungeon areas. I used Bill's protocol for my rebuild with just a few mods.

Lay on 3-4 layer of glass. I used 4 x matt but if doing it again would start with a layer of biaxial.

Sand it down, paint it with bottom paint and you should be good to go.

Don't forget to order a new delrin rudder bearing from the Association (ebb had great o-rings he was generously sending out a few months back).

My rudder post was def. showing signs of galvanic trauma but it wasn't severe so I ingored it. You should check yours and make sure the brozne is OK. Some corrosion is Ok. How much is acceptable is up to you. My was very surface related.

You can get all this done in a weekend easy cake. While the epoxy kicks you can work on other things!!:D

Andrew

[ebb]

Looks YUMMY.

Only thing I can think of is make sure too many layers DON'T go round the ole ruddershaft.
BUT if you use Xmatt (epoxy rated matt) you will be able to sand and shape to your heart's content. without cutting through fiberglass woven cloth.

However, imco it would be tidier and tighter to take turns around the shaft with cloth.

[Westgate]

Good point Ebb.

One can always widen the groove that the rudder post sits in if the leading edge of the rudder no longer fits. I think Bill discusses this in his rudder rebuild. I used a drum sander that matched the radius of the groove.

[JurisG]

That was all exactly what I needed - you guys are the best! Gonna start tomorrow and I'll post the results when I have some. Thanks again.

[JurisG]

Hi All, I started a "#426 rework thread" to keep all of this boat's work in one place. It looks like how everyone else does it. My first post (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=19203&posted=1#post19203) has some good info and a question regarding the rudder removal. Hoping y'all can take a look. Thanks!

[Orca]

Update, last season I had Alex Hadden of Georgetown Island , Maine build me a new rudder using the existing shaft. After looking at the plans I opted to make a cardboard pattern from another Ariel and Alex built it from nice thick mahogany planks. We decided that tapering it on the trailing edge was not necessary. I removed the old and installed the new by digging a hole in the boat yard dirt and jacking up the stern a bit. I did not have to drop the bottom plate as the rudder slides out easily to the side once you remove the keeper strap. I'll make a picture of the new rudder when she's on the hard in the Fall. Best, Ed

The mud is a good part of this scheme if we try it. I'm not too sure why we are even thinking about this as I won't be able to fix it until the fall when the boat will be on the hard. I think we may try to jury rig something on the runt that is left of the rudder for the rest of the season. I always wondered if you could beach her on her side.

Using the same dock, we once winched the boat onto its side using the halyard at high tide to replace a through hull . . .so dangerous acts have been committed in the past. I think we have 11 feet on big tides but I don't recall. This is a dead calm spot so no waves are involved.

Any thoughts about oak?

Best, Ed

BTW I was a member of the board about 10 years ago. I'm very impressed with a lot of the boat pictures etc. I was pretty sure that my manual had the offsets for a new rudder but I don't see them. Am I mistaken or did I loose that page over the years?

[carl291]

Would anyone know how thick a piece of wood (mahoganey) is needed to build a replacement rudder? Thanks

[ebb]

Never seen those offsets myself. Only the general dimensions.
You can find controversy as those drawings in the Manual also imply that a wider rudder WAS once planned for the Ariel and maybe the Triton.
But of course the shoe only allows a 1" shaft. And therefor a thin rudder.

Pics of the traditional plank rudder show them to be no more than an 1 1/8" thick. The rudder would have to be almost totally flat and of consistent thickness to be built with the internal fastenings as we know them.
The finished rudder is skinny and relatively light.

There is no reason imco that a heavier rudder couldn't be built.
The only problem is holding back the bulk at the shaft so that the rudder can be swung. The traditional rudder has no problem going the full sweep of the tiller in the cockpit.

Don't know that the extent of that sweep has been translated to how much there is to the rudder on the keel. Any thickness at the shaft obviously will limit its swing because the rudder is inset into a cove on the 'keel post'

Can relieve the rudder wood at the shaft back so that the swing is maintained.
But that will change the flow of the water off the underbody onto the rudder and might create eddies or turbulence over the blade. Don't know.

A thicker rudder will ease the fitting of the planks together.
Imco a rudder made of thicker wood begs that the rudder sides be shaped into a bit of a modern foil.
Imco a keel hang rudder uses only the trailing HALF of the modern wing foil. An easier shape to introduce onto the rudder.
The curving of the trailing half of a foil is rather mild.
However a trailing foil wants to be thin. And that is a real problem with a round rudder.
And maybe the reason round rudders are left flat.

I think a more efficient rudder can be shaped, one that is less likely to cavitate. Don't know if this has been observed as a problem with A/Cs.
With curved sides the thickness can be carried further aft which may allow the third plank out to be fastened differently.


(Slightly different construction method.)
IE, if the third plank does NOT have the long rods that go thru the second and first to the shaft, why can't the third plank be permanently glued* to the second? Could be slipped over a couple blind bronze pins for reinforcement. And if things work out could allow carving down the trailing edge SOME.

When building the plank rudder the nuts on the ends of the the long rod/bolts/allthread need not be buried in counterbore holes. The nut and washer and bolt ends can be notched into the second plank. They would be totally exposed in open square cutouts - tightening, loosening and adjusting at will. When the rudder is finished, the square holes can be filled and faired with non-hardening putty. When painted the holes will have disappeared.
Later when maintenance is needed and the paint is removed, the major fastenings will be right there! The nuts could be backed off and the blade taken off the shaft without an act of congress.
This is imco - I haven't done this, but it appears feasible. Putting this out for discussion.


The traditional rounded rudder however goes back to a time before rudders were hydrodynamic. It might be too difficult to give a foil shape to a round rudder.

Anyway, with thicker planks some more dynamic but mild curves might be added to a new but traditional blade.
Might entice the Ariel/Commander to go a little faster and enjoy a little more control.
???
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
* The traditional rudder is NOT glued anywhere - giving individual planks some room to move. The usual 3 planks are generally of equal width, about 6".
The original rudder was assembled DRY, altho they may have used a thin coat of bedding compound on the edges and certainly at the shaft to plank join.
However, in this case, the suggestion is to glue on the 'third plank' - the outer and smaller PROBLEM plank. It interferes with no clamping threaded fasteners, not even screws. It is free to swell and shrink.
The middle plank could be an extra wide plank incorporating the third plank. A two planker,

But clamping nuts and washers introduced into the outer edge of a less wide second plank is easier, The same ease of assembly and disassembly of the rubber blade could be achieved in a very wide plank by mortising out the access holes at about the same distance out if a three planker.
So much easier to bore long centered holes in less wide material.
Resorcinol is the perfect underwater bonding glue for mahogany. Maybe a rubber adhesive could be used....

[carl291]

I just acquired some 1 5/8 inch thick stock (mahoganey). two pieces, 13 3/4 wide and 4 1/4 wide X 48". Hopefully I can get a local cabinet maker to cut this down to 1 1/4 " and end up with some veneer for something else. Certainly would be a waste to plane it down to size.
I have 1" thick teak but think this is too thin once I drill for 5/16" pins. Anyone built a rudder from 1" stock??:rolleyes:

[Jon]

I just hauled my boat and this is her rudder. Some of the wood is soft and the entire thing has seen much better days.

I'm doing a major refurb and I really think this rudder should be replaced. Has anyone any idea of what I should do?

thanks

[Commander 147]

Jon

Type the word rudder in the search box above and you will find volumns of information on what others have done. Here is a link to just one small portion of what you will find.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?576-rudder-discussions&highlight=RUDDER

Also here is a link to a company that can build you a nice new fiberglass version (at a pretty steep price). If you decide to go with Foss Foam to have them build you a new rudder, they will need to make a new mold which is the expensive part and the reason I have not choosen to go with them. However we might be able to cut a deal that is better if they were to build two rudders one for me and one for you.

http://newrudders.com/?page_id=6

Currently my plan is to buy the marine bronze and have a local machine shop do the fabricating to it and build a new rudder body out of some 6/4 quartersawn mahogany I already have and then "possibly" cover it in fiberglass. The jury is still out on the last part.

Your milage may vary :-)

[Jon]

Jerry,

I have spent some time on the rudder board, but there are a lot of discussions out there and it's easy to get off the subject and on to another. Having said that, I'll go through it again and see what I can find.

I think that I've seen a rudder that has been braced like this one time and I'll state upfront that I don't know anything about it, but it would seem to me that when you get to this point it's time start thinking about a replacement and that's what I'm inclined to want to do anyway. The shoe and the bronze couplings that hold the rudder in line seem to be a pretty fair shape and the fitting is snug. Although I haven't sailed this boat yet, the rudder doesn't seem to have any play or looseness from the tiller.

You mention a company that will build a new one from fiberglass. Out of curiosity, what do they want to charge and have you any idea of the turn around time?

[Commander 147]

Jon

When I spoke to Bob at Foss Foam I was willing to provide the silicon bronze shaft (because I wanted to make sure I got the alloy I wanted) and I was told it would cost between $2,000.00 and $2,500.00 plus another $1,200.00 for the mold which he verified he did not have to match what I needed. That is when I decided to build my own. But I have been a woodworker all my life so for me that is not a problem.

I'm guessing in the current lousy economy we have here in Florida (which is also where Foss Foam is located) they could turn it around in a couple three weeks.

[Miro]

Hello Jerre!
I recently became owner of an Ariel. I just fell in love with this old beauty and I want to restore her to her former self. I want to do as much original nice quality wood and finishes as I can while rebuilding her. I need to replace the rudder, but I'm not sure where to start. Can you tell me what's important to know about the 6/4 quartersawn mahogany. I'm not even sure where to find this wood. Please let me know some hints about finding and working with this wood.
Thank you,
Miro.

[c_amos]

Thank you Bill for merging this thread into the other one... :)

WRT the rudder in post #329. These rudders are misunderstood. The assumption (as I might have made) was that the planks seeming to separate indicates failure. The fact is that you can go out and buy the most beautiful new components and assemble your rudder... and if you build it out of wood it is going to wind up looking just like the one you remove.

The mahogany planks are drilled through, and a 'sintered' bronze rod has been placed lengthwise through the socket. This is a pretty sound construction method. Now, after the boat has been in the water and water has gotten into the grain of the wood it starts to do what it did when it was in the woods and surrounded by it's friends.... it absorbs water and swells into a wonderful solid unit.

The problem comes when we haul the boat, and the rudder starts to dry. The planks get gaps in them which we long to fill (I know, I did). Some construct elaborate systems of straps or fiberglass coatings to ensure the planks will stay together.....

They (mostly) stay together on their own anyway.

Wow, I am getting long winded here.

You can make your own out of fiberglass. Make sure not to put too fine of a trailing edge on it. First it is not necessarily as hydrodynamic, but second the fine edge produces a turbulence that WILL make your rudder / tiller hum and vibrate.

Keith did an absolutely masterful job with the rudder on Ariel Spirit (Hull #3) (I believe you will find it mentioned earlier in this thread). When my wife and I delivered her from MD to NC we found that the rudder would hum and lightly vibrate near 5 knots.... not a terrible issue, but I would not have chosen this... especially given the miles we have sailed our little ship.

Yes, in this long and rambling post I need to get to my point.

On Faith's last haul out (pre-cruise) we removed the sealant from between the planks, we fared some of the trailing edge with epoxy, then we filled the gaps back in with a bead of 3M 5200 that was then scraped so as to produce a thin 'link' between the boards.

THis is tough to describe, but basically we wanted to fill and secure the planks but also allow them to swell when the hull was splashed. I wish I had taken some close up pictures, but picture filling in the gaps and then removing and smoothing the sealant with 'valleys' between the planks. That way the sealant was adhering to the edges, but not completely filing the void.

6614

I can type more on this if it is helpful... I suspect I may have typed too much already.

I will say that I did dive and scrub (caress?) the rudder often since.. and have not found any weakness. I will likely do a haul out after the oil spill clears and will update things then.

[Commander 147]

As you can see our hard working forum administrator has merged this thread with the main one on the topic. And because of it there is probably a lot more information here now than you will be able to read in even a couple of sittings.

But to answer the specific questions you asked me, and since I don't know how much you already know or not I will go into detail. I'm sorry if I am wasting your time telling you things you already know.

I decided to use quartersawn mahogany because it is much more stable than flat sawn mahogany. Most people know that wood shrinks and expands as it takes on and gives off moisture. What many people do not know is that the amount of movement varies based on the orientation to the growth rings. For example, for all practical purposes wood will not shrink or expand in its length. While not 100% true the amount of change is so small it usually is not worth considering.

Take a look at the drawing below. If you were looking at the end of a log that was being cut into lumber you can see the boards I have labeled as flat sawn have a different orientation to the growth rings than the boards I have labeled as quartersawn. The growth rings are for the most part perpendicular to the face of the board in the quartersawn boards and they run more parallel to the face of the board in the flat sawn. Flat sawn boards will shrink and expand almost twice what a quartersawn board will. In addition because of the orientation of the growth rings they will tend to cup and warp much more than quartersawn boards.

To illustrate my point you could expect an 8" wide flat sawn board to expand by .05" when it goes from 8% moisture content (a good level for furniture building) to 28% (saturation point) while a quartersawn board would only expand by .03".

As far as where to buy the material that depends on where you live. Some parts of the country have much better access to lumber than others. I would look first in the yellow pages for hardwood lumber retailers. Then call cabinet shops in the area if you cannot locate anyone you can buy from direct. They will often sell you what you need with a small markup for their trouble. And if all else fails do like I did and search on the web.

[Miro]

Jerry,

Thank you very much for all the information you've provided. It is all very helpful. I hope to get started on this project soon, but I'll take a little time to digest all the details first.

Miro.

[ebb]

Original Ariel/Commander rudders lasted 45 years (so far!) as two relatively unprotected planks of brown wood under water.

You want Honduras Mahogany (swietenia macroplylla) lumber to replace an original rudder.
You need a reputable dealer. Go where furniture and cabinet people go. Don't trust big box.

You want straight grain 5/4 or 1 1/2" lumber to begin with. Any "honduras" you see in a lumber store has had its "quartersawn" pieces culled for veneer and high end furniture before it got there.

However swietenia macrophylla is the MOST STABLE WOOD IN THE WORLD.
You may find boards that have SOME quartersawn characteristics, I would go for those.
But you won't have cupping issues with the correct mahogany and stuff you choose from off center of these huge trees.

Do NOT build your rudder with african, indonesian or philippine "mahogany". These are either punky or snakes or both. These are NOT mahogany.
Use a substitute (spanish cedar, orange wood, locust, yellow pine, etc.) at your peril.


Use ALL SILICON BRONZE rod, allthread, bolts, lags, screws. NO stainless steel.
If you replicate the original rudder, yours will last another 45 years under water!!!!:cool:

[Commander 147]

ebb

I agree Honduras mahogany is the correct material to use. But I think lumping African mahogany in with indonesian and phillippine is a bit harsh treatment for African mahogany. Khaya spp. (it's scientific name) and it's close cousins Khaya anthotheca, K. grandifoliola, K. ivorensis, K. senegalensis which are all brought into this country under the name African Mahogany are used all over in boat building. Just about every wood database you can find lists boat building as one of the primary uses for African mahogany. Here is a good example.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/african-mahogany/

[carl291]

I purchased two Honduras mahogany boards and cut out a rudder. This wood seems very light (soft) and dry compared to the two African mahogany boards I also have. The reason I bought the A. mahogany was because the H. Mahogany seemed to feel like a soft wood while the A mahogany had a heavy and very oily feel.
I took a scrap of the H mahogany and threw it in a low wet spot in the pasture last summer and it has been lying in the water and sunlight for about 11 months. I assumed it would be absorbing moisture and begin to decay however other than some color fading from sunlight it appears to have picked up little to no moisture that I can determine. This wood has surprised me, now I'm confused as to which would make the best rudder.
Both of these woods were purchased on EBAY from Sergio exotic woods in Miami, Fl Also, Jerry thanks for explaining quartersawn.

[Miro]

Thank you very much! I'm having trouble finding a source for mahogany in New England. I'm from Connecticut. I haven't found any suppliers through eBay yet. Maybe one of you knows a good one??
Miro.

[Miro]

:rolleyes:662066196618

[Commander 147]

Miro

These guys may not be within a short drive but they can UPS the material to you.

http://www.hearnehardwoods.com/hardwoods/exotic_hardwoods/exotic_wood/mahogany_lumber/mahogany_wood.html

[mbd]

I've seen these folks recommended quite a few times: http://www.mainecoastlumber.com/hardwood-and-softwood-lumber.shtml

[bill@ariel231]

I also had good luck getting mahogany for a rebuild of our vintage dyer dink from boulter plywood in Somerville, MA http://www.boulterplywood.com/.

good luck, sourcing material is getting hard

[Chance]

Here's a question I'd like feeback on:

In regards to the rudder shaft strap (Gudgeon), why don't you see them on the rudders of the following vessels:
Morris 28
Bristol 27, 32 (first generation)
Cape Dory 28 (perhaps the 25, 26 and 27 as well)
Sea Sprite 28

All the above have keel hung rudders, and some are not even a one piece shaft.

What are your thoughts?

Ebb? I know our beloved vessels have them. Could this strap be unique to how our "original" rudders were made? Pearson didn't build composite rudders on ours, if they had, do you think they would have found it necessary to add the strap?

I ask your input, as I'm not building an original configuration but rather a new composite, cored, sheathed and the likes.

[Chance]

You also don't see it on a Choey Lee Offshore 27 which has keel hung rudder.

[ebb]

I see it like this.
There is no sleeve-bearing in the hull (bustle) where the rudder shaft exists the rudder tube.
The rudder shaft tube is deliberately oversized to allow the whole rudder to be lifted up and shifted over just enough to bypass the heel fitting
TO DROP THE RUDDER out of the boat. Haveta remove all that stuff on top of the shaft first.

The strap is there to make sure that it doesn't happen on its own,
for instance when you ground and the rudder wants to lift.
The strap is your only guarantee that if the rudder lifts out of its seat (it's only 3/4" deep)
it going to drop right back down into the bearing again.

As you might expect, I personally don't like this what seems like a ratther funky method of keeping the all important rudder connected to the boat at all times. Almost an afterthought.
My strap and others I've seen are/were flimsy to say the least. Amazing really.
Mine was a piece of copper sheet that had its edges bent double on itself meeting in the middle.
But it sure makes it easy to remove the rudder because you just back out a couple screws or remove a couple nuts and bend the copper strap out of the way with yer pinky.
A lot easier than most boats to remove the rudder.
Making it easy imco is a good thing.

The strap seems to have worked these five decades. I know others have upgraded.
I wouldn't go offshore without something a little more beefy.

The tillerhead is all that will hold the rudder in/on the boat if the shaft unships from its bearing.
However the tillerhead will not stop a freed shaft from dropping thru the tube.
And knowing the shape and age of most tillerhead assemblys there is probably 15 minutes befor the whole rudder slips down the tube.:eek:

Actually the gudgeon strap will keep the rudder from falling, altho it's not meant for that job.
We have discussion here on more substantial 'strapping'. Might be good idea if you haven't rebuilt the keel where the rudder-shoe mounts!!!

[Chance]

Ebb,
As I had expected, great wisdom and quality feedback once again. Thank you for taking the time to provide the feedback and excellent explanation. I hadn't thought of the oversize rudder tube, but you make perfect sense of it all.

I wonder why Pearson found it necessary to build ours with oversize rudder tubes. As many are aware, Alberg designed many of the Bristols, Cape Dorys, and Albergs, non of which were built by their respective builders with this critical (in our case) strap.

[ebb]

Thank you Chance!
You know it don't have to be that much more diameter in the rudder tube.
A quarter inch space 5 feet down to the heelbearing would triangulate to maybe an inch and a quarter? Don't know that for a fact. Have to remove the bearing at the top of the tube.
Enough.
And we got dem specs, mon!
I know one Triton that has a sleeve bearing there in the hull (obviously to keep water out AND IMMOBILIZE THE SHAFT - Tritons have NO heel fitting - it's all gudgeons and pintles.
Proximity to the water and bottom paint etc make it a crime to try to extract this bearing, can't do it with the shaft in place. It's up inside the boat! To remove this keel hung rudder everything has to be disassembled. Then you can access the bearing in the hull where the Ariel's isn't. It's not a good place to have a any fitting!

It would be great to see a time progression of Albergian keel hung rudder installations.
And see how things changed and if they progressed. Our unique bronze and wood rudders required Pearson to come up with clever (I say that gudgeonly), maybe just as unique, solutions. Does anybody else remove rudders like we do?
I know, I know, most NEVER remove the rudder!!!!


I kinow another Triton whose rudder was completely rebuilt. He didn't get the two sets of gudgeons and pintles aligned with the hull aperture AND
the lower g&p casting broke just as he was turning and entering the seawall of his marina - the rudder went limp.
An amazing sailor, he somehow averted disaster and ROWED into his slip.

BUT that is to say our whimpy strap gudgeon has a forgiving nature.
Low tech but it works, so it's smart, right?
just needs a little extra attention.


I know I mentioned this once befor.
A disreputable Ariel appeared briefly in the yard - probably for some paint.
Saw that the heel fitting was completely gone, GONE,
the rudder shaft terminated in space.
yet the skipper had somehow managed to steer her into the harbor.
His gudgeon strap must have been doing all the work. You had to know it was there because it was so cruddy you couldn't really see it.
Then she was gone.

[carl291]

ebb, When looking at the Triton and Ariel there are so many differences, the 2 shrouds versus the Ariels 3, the entire rudder layout. It would appear the Ariel is the blue water boat.

[ebb]

Carl,
Ayeno I can sing praises of an Ariel.
It is a far prettier proportioned boat than the Triton to my eye.
I like the masthead rig for its simplicity and its oversized mast.

And the MORC (Midget Ocean Racer Club) tag may have ordained the three shroud configuration to Alberg. Any sailboat between 20' and 30'.
could join the club that was founded in 1954, "inspired by the safe ocean cruising of the 17'9" Sopranino." So the club creates safety rule and ratings for small Ocean Racers. Doesn't seem to be any guidelines available on the net.
We do know that nothing could change Alberg's conviction of what a safe sailboat's lines should be. "Under the guidance of Bill Shaw, a handicap rule, stressing safety, was created for cruising boats under 20'.
Because other small cruising yachts were excluded from many ocean races, the maximum length was increased in1958 to just under 30'.

I think the 29' Triton makes a gorgeous double headsail rig when it grows a short bowsprit and the jibstay moves to the masthead. Why Richard Moot's inspired conversion to 'Sobriquet' didn't produce a Triton revolution is hard to fathom. The pictures we have (Still possible to bring some up on the net.) show a visually exciting sleek boat that looks eager to voyage anywhere on the planet. And turn every eye at a Sunday parade on the bay.

Regular Tritons have done just that.
Atom (James Baldwin's Triton) twice circumnavigated. Imco this is the best Triton site on the net relative to the whole aspect of sailing Albergs.
There are hundreds of generous tips and suggestions on this welcoming website.

He made no wild changes, (didn't he convert to masthead?) and kept it simple.
He may also have added the third shroud like many owners do. Not a big deal.
Baldwin has inspired me to create (at least the possibilty) of floatation in the interior cabintry of litlgull.
The Triton rudder is strange. I wonder what Badwin did to strengthen his.
They have a similar (to A/C) dangerous corrosion problem in the shaft where a bolt for the blade is attached.
The one I see on the hard in San Rafael is also thinner than the Ariel's and has added cleats to the outside of the blade for reinforcement. But don't know what is original. It is a wood and bronze but awkward in its overall design. I believe the original Ariel/Commander rudder asbuilt is a MASTERPIECE. YET the Triton rudder has been hanging around a half century on this very first glass sailboat production classic.

Don't know if one is more naturally a bluewater boat than the other.
All of the Alberg Fleet flies a bluewater flag.

The list of necessary ocean cruising upgrades are probably nearly the same for both boats.

[sinbin]

Greetings:
My name is Dennis, and I've owned "Sinbin" since 1994. After 48 years, her rudder shaft came apart in my hands as I was dropping it down for inspection. I was happy it broke because I was on terra firma. Thanks to this discussion, I have, through the years, collected a stock tiller cap, a stock rudder bearing, and now a new rudder shoe thanks to a fine gentleman by the name of Chance.
Svendsen's Boat Works in Alameda replaced the upper and lower shafts, the six attachment screws and the gudgeon, all in bronze. Excellent work and reasonable rates. I now realize I've had sloppy steering for 18 years.
Anyway, I'd like to thank you folks for the info, and I'd like to recommend Svendsen's for your repairs.

[ebb]

In my opinion a new new rudder with 1" bronze shaft, the upper part bent to the original spec, plus the machining for the tiller head and the bottom that sits in the shoe... is a major undertaking.... requiring a great deal of expertise.

Plus reproducing the inner rod attachments for the mahogany blade, and that woodwork itself... really impressive ! It's good to know that master carpenters still employ their art.
And that Svendsens, a fine independant chandlery and rigging shop, is still in business, and can do the work.

It's great you decided to replace the old with the same wonderful original rudder. An amazing combo of bronze and wood that will live unseen and underwater, for the most part,
for another half century ! !:cool:

[sinbin]

Thanks. I figure if it's only once in 48 years, it can be done right. FYI - just made contact with Chesapeake Fasteners @ 800 315 8808 for some more silicon bronze fasteners. I am optimistic about them.
-D.

[Tim D.]

Craig, How has the seaming with 5200 worked out? I am getting close to doing the same with #331 before bottomcoat. Did you strip the rudder of bottem paint before applying the 5200?

Tim


Thank you Bill for merging this thread into the other one... :)

WRT the rudder in post #329. These rudders are misunderstood. The assumption (as I might have made) was that the planks seeming to separate indicates failure. The fact is that you can go out and buy the most beautiful new components and assemble your rudder... and if you build it out of wood it is going to wind up looking just like the one you remove.

The mahogany planks are drilled through, and a 'sintered' bronze rod has been placed lengthwise through the socket. This is a pretty sound construction method. Now, after the boat has been in the water and water has gotten into the grain of the wood it starts to do what it did when it was in the woods and surrounded by it's friends.... it absorbs water and swells into a wonderful solid unit.

The problem comes when we haul the boat, and the rudder starts to dry. The planks get gaps in them which we long to fill (I know, I did). Some construct elaborate systems of straps or fiberglass coatings to ensure the planks will stay together.....

They (mostly) stay together on their own anyway.

Wow, I am getting long winded here.

You can make your own out of fiberglass. Make sure not to put too fine of a trailing edge on it. First it is not necessarily as hydrodynamic, but second the fine edge produces a turbulence that WILL make your rudder / tiller hum and vibrate.

Keith did an absolutely masterful job with the rudder on Ariel Spirit (Hull #3) (I believe you will find it mentioned earlier in this thread). When my wife and I delivered her from MD to NC we found that the rudder would hum and lightly vibrate near 5 knots.... not a terrible issue, but I would not have chosen this... especially given the miles we have sailed our little ship.

Yes, in this long and rambling post I need to get to my point.

On Faith's last haul out (pre-cruise) we removed the sealant from between the planks, we fared some of the trailing edge with epoxy, then we filled the gaps back in with a bead of 3M 5200 that was then scraped so as to produce a thin 'link' between the boards.

THis is tough to describe, but basically we wanted to fill and secure the planks but also allow them to swell when the hull was splashed. I wish I had taken some close up pictures, but picture filling in the gaps and then removing and smoothing the sealant with 'valleys' between the planks. That way the sealant was adhering to the edges, but not completely filing the void.

6614

I can type more on this if it is helpful... I suspect I may have typed too much already.

I will say that I did dive and scrub (caress?) the rudder often since.. and have not found any weakness. I will likely do a haul out after the oil spill clears and will update things then.

[sinbin]

I concur w/Mr. Amos. Caulking the rudder is not necessary After caulking dry seams, I've found that as the wood swells due to moisture, it pushes the caulk out of the seams leaving one with wasted effort. Not being a racer, I don't like to remove paint. I figure the more coats over the mahogany the better. Also, have had good results keeping the moisture in the wooden rudder by wrapping it in plastic after it's surface dry.
Have fun with your boat!
-Dennis

[Robert]

I was sailing under the Golden Gate Bridge yesterday when all of a sudden the tiller came off in my hand. The 2 forks on the bronze tiller head failed, without warning. Luckily conditions were not too severe and we were able to motor back using vise grips as a tiller.

Is there anybody in SAn Francisco area that might sell the tiller head or do I need the whole assembly? The rudder post is 1 inch diameter, keyed to aft.

-Bob, Ariel 100

[sinbin]

Hi Bob. Let me crawl around the garage and see what I come up with. Will know something by tomorrow. My number is 831 685 1560. -Dennis

[sinbin]

Bob of A100: The last two posts seem to have gone to Davey Jones - they've disappeared from my screen. I found Sinbin's 50 year old tiller cap and fork in the garage. If you're interested, the number is 831 685 1560 anytime. -Dennis

[Tim Mertinooke]

I replaced the original on A-24 with a stronger one and held on to the original. If anyone needs one, let me know as I now have a different boat and have no need for it.

Tim

[sinbin]

Looks just like mine, but I kept the bolts.

[sinbin]

Bob of A100: Got your msg. Need your e mail address. Thanks, Dennis.

[pbryant]

I just recently had a haulout at Svedsen's and noticed some of the notorious corrosion of the bronze rudder shaft at the water line. It was pink (dezincification?) and appeared a little thin. I had the rudder taken off for a closer inspection. It looked a little worn, and so I decided to have Svedsen's replace it with a 316L stainless shaft.

After they took the rudder off the shaft, it was clear that there was only about a tenth of an inch of uncorroded bronze holding the shaft together at the waterline and at each fastener penetration hole! One hard shove and I would have snapped the shaft. So my purpose for posting this is to caution the reader that if any corrosion is present - it may be a lot worse than it appears. The corrosion easily hides in the areas covered by the rudder and attachment screws.

I'm glad I had it replaced because I had to traverse the Golden Gate Bar in heavy swell to get back to Half Moon Bay, and for the first time I had to navigate over the bar all the way out to the end of the deep water ("main ship") channel to avoid plunging breakers on either side. This was my tenth crossing in and out through the Golden Gate Channel, and the swells from the recent storms made it exciting - I wouldn't ever want more excitement. I'm posting here the course that I took over the bar and the full voyage. I had 10 foot following seas all the way back to Half Moon Bay (surfing at 6 to 8 knots!), where I had to reverse the rudder every 10 seconds to compensate for reversed flow across the rudder caused by oncoming swells. The rudder got quite a workout and the new shaft was essential!

Had I not followed the proper course to avoid the breakers and avoided going through at max ebb tide, I am sure I would not have made it across the bar in those conditions. Previously, I'd always been able to plan my bar crossings in less than 6 foot swells, but this time of year, I could have been trapped in the Bay for some time waiting for those benign conditions to develop. I highly recommend this article to anyone who plans to cross the bar: http://coastsidefishingclub.com/grey-beard-articles/the-san-francisco-bar/ -- especially the sections on "Crossing the Bar Tactics" and the mythical "South Channel" (why is that name even on the charts?). It's written for fishermen in motor boats, but the advice is just as valid for us. Capsizing is capsizing.

[Bill]

Replacing with stainless instead of bronze may increase the incidence of corrosion over time. Rudder shoe and other below the waterline fittings are bronze.

It's recommended that you keep a zinc on the shoe. That will protect it and the lower rudder shaft.

To protect the upper rudder shaft, I attach half of a jump cable to the lower portion of the tiller head fitting and drop the other end into the water with a zinc attached. (Remove the cable clamp and attach the zinc to the copper wire.) Of course, if Svedsen's replaced the two shafts with one, the upper cable attachment is not necessary.

[pbryant]

Thanks. I'm floating a large zinc that I sink at the slip. I'm using stainless steel alligator clips connected by stainless steel braided wire (http://www.ags.bz/) I got tired of replacing seawater-dissolved copper - copper turns to green powder practically overnight. The attachment point is the bolt retaining the tiller head.

[ebb]

DO NOT REPLACE YOUR RUDDER SHAFT WITH 316L.

The only material to use is readikly available 655 SILICON BRONZE.

316L is NOT A PERMANENT UNDERWATER METAL.
If you are going to the expense of having a rudder made
use only silicon bronze.


You will be creating a galvanic corrosion situation with the heel fitting
and the gudgeon strap. Zincs won't immunize a galvanic system.
[A338 came to me with a rudder of unknown stainless steel shaft that caused
the heel fitting to get eaten away. There were zincs attached to the heel fitting.]

Bronze used in underwater suituations must have very little or NO ZINC. Use S.B.
which is 98% copper. It is as close to an inert metal you can have in salt.

Silicon will survive the waterline corrosion anamoly in the rudder tube
- 316L will not. Bet on it! This is especially true in a marina situation.

You already may have to have a new heel fitting made.
Look for corrosion there. You do NOT want to seat stainless into a bronze heel fitting.

Have a new one cast of silicon bronze (to match your new S.B. rudder.)
Can be done locally in Richmond.

[pbryant]

There must be an awful lot of stainless propeller shafts with attached bronze propellers in peril of corroding away out there.

[ebb]

Propeller shafts are not made with 316L.
Drive shafts of "Aqualoy & 17-4 Aqumet" are alloys of twice the strength of 300 series s.s.

Also the propeller/shaft system is 'isolated' from other underwater metals like the rudder.
You'd have galvanic problems with any mixed metal combo.

Best drive shaft and propeller would be all bronze.

[pbryant]

https://www.google.com/#q=stainless+steel+propeller+shaft

For rudder shafts:

"Historically stainless steel 316 has been the preferred rudder shaft material. This material was chosen as it was non corrosive and relatively strong and widely available."
http://www.jefa.com/products/materials.htm

I work with a bunch of metallurgists. Their consensus was that, although no metal will last forever in seawater, SS 316L with an attached zinc will hold up longer than silicon bronze. I actually doubt the original shaft was silicon bronze. The pink discoloration indicates the presence of zinc.

[ebb]

Your friends are misinformed.

If your friend only knows about stainless,
are you going to ask him about silicon bronze?


I once had a curmudgeonery exchange with Roger Winiarski of Bristol Bronze,
who told me his company supplied the original Ariels and Commanders with the bronze used for the rudder and cast heel fitting.
He said they used manganese bronze - which has zinc in it.*

Now, I know you are impressed with EXPERTS - and so am I -
but Roger had no answer for using M.Bronze for underwater cast bronze. (not sure about the shaft - but it appears Bristol supplied the wrong stuff for your boat which probably lives in a modern HOT marina.)
There is no answer. Bristol sold the wrong material to Pearson (or maybe it was the cost effective compromise to the correct material).....
But good enough to last 40-45 years.

Silicon Bronze is the right stuff.
Manganese Bronze is and was the wrong stuff.
300 series Stainless Steel is and forever will be the wrong stuff.

for your Ariel/Commander rudder.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
*Has been a long time since going through Bristol Bronze's catalog.
But I think I recall seeing a heel fitting listed there that specifically said it was silicon bronze.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
later edit. All common bronze plain and threaded rod, fasteners (machine cap screw and wood screw, bolts, nuts, washers) are usually silicon bronze. Less and less as years go. But you can still build a bronze armmature rudder with 665 Evadur sheet. welding rod, and common fasteners. It'll just cost you. Blame it on Wall Street. Check out Top Notch Fasteners tnfasteners.com Also OnLineMetals, McMasterrCarr & Duckworks.

[pbryant]

Yeah, I thought there was some zinc in there. Manganese bronze is bronze in name only; because of its zinc content, it resides squarely in the brass family. I agree with you that manganese "bronze" (brass) is the wrong stuff.

And, OK. I guess my friends are wrong. You never can trust those NASA engineers who fabricate stuff for research vessels...

Here's another reference:

"The stainless steels often used for propeller shafts include Types 303, 304, 316, and 630. All stainless steel shafting is strong, especially the 630 type (which is also known as "17-4 PH"). Stainless steel shafting in salt water is more-or-less subject to pitting which leads to crevice corrosion. Types 303 and 304 are probably worse in this respect, with type 316 being less susceptible, and therefore better suited to salt water use. The 630 type is probably neck-and-neck with K-500 Monel at this stage in technology for the winner in the "best shaft material" race. It costs more than the other stainless types, is stronger, and is less subject to corrosion."
https://www.glen-l.com/weblettr/webletters-5/wl43-propshaft.html

I considered using: silicon bronze, 630 stainless, monel (70% copper/30% nickel), nitronic 50/60 (http://www.hpalloy.com/alloys/descriptions/nitronic50.html), and even titanium. But I couldn't find matching fasteners in the same alloy for attaching the rudder to the shaft, which would have led to an even more serious galvanic couple than SS316L to the "bronze" rudder shoe. Is the rudder shoe also brass? I didn't see any pink in the shoe when I inspected it, so I suspect the shoe is really bronze.

So what I had before was a brass shaft coupled to a bronze shoe? That isn't much better galvanically than stainless to bronze. And still, it lasted 51 years. I'll have to tell my friends that a new shaft of titanium with matching fasteners and rudder shoe will be the perfect present for my 100th birthday (40 years from now).

P.S. The problem with bronze is - the only way to know it's true composition is to cut a piece off and send it to a lab for analysis. There are too many hucksters pawning off brass as bronze (like Bristol Bronze apparently did). The project already took 3 weeks longer than I'd planned - forcing me to sail back in winter seastate conditions. I sail my boat at least once a week - it's not a museum piece that I can take forever to restore.

[pbryant]

Doing a little more research...

My best guess (without a lab analysis) is that what I had before with the original rudder shaft was Admiralty Brass with a Silicon Bronze rudder shoe. On the galvanic scale* that would be:

60. Admiralty brass (rudder shaft), coupled to
70. Silicone Bronze 655 (rudder shoe)

What I have now is:

76. Stainless steel 316L (passive) (rudder shaft), coupled to
70. Silicone Bronze 655 (rudder shoe)

So 60 coupled to 70 is worse than 76 coupled to 70. The 316L shaft is closer on the galvanic scale than the original brass rudder shaft. The corrosion pattern is reversed - now the shoe has become the anode - but that can be mitigated with a sacrificial zinc anode.


*Reference: “Galvanic Series of Metals in Sea Water” from Army Missile Command Report RS-TR-67-11, "Practical Galvanic Series."

[ebb]

Bronze and stainless are often paired. Like turnbuckles, sleeve bearings.
And bronze propeller nuts on Aqualoy shafts.
The game changes IN sea water, which is a fine electrolite.
Stainless needs oxygen to be happy.
If you sail more than sit, moving water may be the solution!

Check the heel fitting socket as often as you can,
until you find the best way to zinc.


[A bronze bolt was added by thru-drilling the fitting to attach a zinc onto A338's heel fitting.....
and it did not seem to have worked at all. But it may have been a desperate and
too late fix by the DFO for damage that had already occured after the s.s shafted rudder
had been installed for some (unknown) amount of time. The boat, before I bought it,
lived in a marina but was often sailed and raced.
There was extensive corrosion to A338's heel fitting, even tho it was zinced. The stainless
rudder shaft showed no pitting or other corrosion. It was a rectangular fiberglass blade
with glass wrapped around the shaft. (In quiet salt water tests Aqualoy22 was completely
unaffected compared with 316 which suffered "random pitting and crevis corrosion."
http://www.wbmetals.com/shafting.asp)
At the time I thought the rudder shaft could be recycled propeller shaft (which if it was
Aqualoy22 has less carbon, much more manganese, chromium, nickle, molybdenum,
and nitrogen than 316 - and is also nearly twice as strong as 316. And corrosion free.)
Whether there is separation on the galvanicscale that would in salt water cause the
bronze heel fitting to anode to a stainless cathodic shaft is only a guess. However,
there was the result of the coupling I had to deal with. It meant having a new heel
fitting cast - and rebuilding the keel.]

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
316 vs 316L (www.engineersedge.com/) 316L considered a more weldable version of 316.
The difference is slight. I don't believe that passivation enters into the picture. Here is an explantion
posted by Juan Crawford:
"At welding temperatures, chromium carbides are formed in the molten pool.
The carbides are precipitated at the grain boundaries as the weld cools and solidifies,
resulting in a depletion of the corrosion-resisting chromium in these areas.
If a part is to be welded, reduced-carbon 316L will usually resilt in better corrosion resistance
in the weld area. If welding is not required, there is little if any difference in the corrosion
resistances of the two alloys."
316L does not have more chromium than 316 - only that carbon content is held to a certain level.
So it's a bit of a toss up.

[pbryant]

Ebb,

I really appreciate your advice on this. Unfortunately, the highly-recommended experts at Svedsen's had already replaced the bronze/brass rudder shaft with their recommended materials:
316 stainless shaft, and rebuilt the rudder including installing stainless fasteners into the rudder... before I saw you comments. What do you suggest now that "the horse is already out of the barn" besides zinc-ing the shoe?

[ebb]

Unfortunately the weight of my arguement was in prevention....
before I realized you are already committed to 316 for your rudder shaft.
Sorry, I should have changed the tone a bit.

I can imagine what the guys at Svendsen's might say to support their choice
of materials. 316L is very weldable, fairly easy to fabricate, and fairly resistant
to corrosion. Cheaper than bronze. And the guys are probably not Swedes!

Just have to keep an eye on the rudder system, every time you bottom paint
and change or rearrange the zincs. Also, it seems every location in a marina
is as different as every individual boat is when it comes to how susceptable your
boat is to corrosion. Maybe you'll have no problem.

Many boats have stainless steel rudder shafts.
Might ask Svendsen to recommend and install zinc protection for their installation.
They're the experts. No, really, they are!
In no way is Ebb an expert. There are real experts whose information and advice
can be trusted. They are far and few. So we have to take what we have and
deal with it. Even tho maybe it's biased, compromised, traditional, or plain BS.
.................................................. .................................................. .....................
Just bought some expensive strips of Hypalon (a polyethylene product) from McMasterCarr.
Complained that the black plastic/rubber had no markings on it. How do I kinow that
it is actually Hypalon and not EPDM (another polyehtylene)? Which it looks like, EXACTLY.
We'll give you a 'certificate of compliance'. OK, Thanks.
But how do YOU & I know that the unmarked sheet rubber is actually Hypalon
if it's not stamped or marked on the sheet?
No answer from McMasterCarr for that. But that is exactly the measure of trust needed
for a material (or by extension) work done: COMPLIANCE..... Leaves me feeling very
uncomfortable. Even though I mostly trust people I deal with, there are NO GUARANTEES!
And no expectations.

[Commander227]

Wow... I sure do love my fresh water venue.
(By the way, what's a zinc?)

[ebb]

Zincs are lozenges you give your boat to cure a bad ODE
(anode/cathode - together they're called corrode by saltwater sailors.)

Zincing (pronounced 'sinking') is the feeling you get
when you're damned sure you haven't done enough to save your boat.
.................................................. .................................................. .........
http://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2013/05/30/photo-whe

[captcraig]

A 157 has been on freshwater for 50+ years, almost hate to put her in the seawater but don't think I can resist going for a voyage or two (in water that I can swim in). Wonder if a composite rudder and shoe would solve the problem, would be interested to hear your thoughts on that Ebb. Dr. LED states that the navy used his led lights so there must not be too much RFI with his products.

[ebb]

After a certain number of years, an Ariel/Commander rudder would probably need to be rebuilt.
Threads here on Pearson Ariel. org have many fine and many differnt rudder rebuilds.
You may want to stay with the original bronze and mahogany because you want to restore what she has. Building a new rudder is something imco any woodworker can do. The original rudder is a beautiful piece of work that ties the folkboat heritage of Alberg's beginnings with the new polyester and glass productions of the Pearson's in the early 1960's.

If you are going with an internal engine you probably need a new rudder, and all that goes with it: an apperture in the keel (which is most like there to be excavated), a two part bent bronze shaft, and propeller drive shaft with apperture in the blade. We hear the original rudder was two part bronze - yours may have an insert (that matches the one in the keel) that closes the hole.
The rudder you have, if it needs to be rebuilt for offshore, will be the model for a new one.
It could be taken apart carefully. Fresh water won't have done anything to whatever bronze was used. Therefor, replacement of the mahogany may be all that's necessary.

The original rudders have lasted an amazing long time. They must be a pretty amazing rudder!
Maybe you need not do anything until your rudder tastes salt. Unless you have noticed issues with the heel fitting/rudder shoe, the shaft end in the shoe, the gudgeon strap, the unseen part of the shaft above the water in the bustle, wear at the top of the shaft at the tillerhead, wear of the tiller head and other etceteras. If things are good here, or can fairly easily be upgraded or fixed....you are good to go!
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................
On the otherhand, if you have to replace, stay tuned.

I've just dragged out my new rudder shaft with it's welded 3-strap armature. (no pics here yet.)
On which I'll construct a composite blade of epoxy, glass, kevlar cloth, kevlar thread and divinycell - applying
NACA00XX airfoil profile to the surface of the quadrilateral blade Alberg has drawn behind the original
you can see in the lines drawing on page 144 in the Association Manual.

The new thickness of the rudder will start at the width of the keel
- around 2" wide, and trail to 1/4". The 'airfoil' will be the aft half of the NCAA foil. The traling half, which has a long fairly flat curve.
The idea with symetrical foil is to reduce the drag of a flat blade. Decrease turbulence. And I hear, to stop stalling.
Airfoils are usually applied to more or less retangular shapes of wings, fin keels, standalone rudders & daggarboards.
But I see no reason why streamlining can't be applied to the nearly triangular rudder Alberg has drawn.
Discussion would be great.

[captcraig]

My rudder really doesn't look too bad. I am a little concerned about going out bluewater with it though. I like your idea of tapering thin near the trailing edge. I am going to buy a Cape Horn steering gear and an emergency rudder can be purchased to go with that so maybe there is not much to worry about as long as I have a back up. After looking at Yves gear and his movie I am comfortable with what he has developed over the years. He has encouraged me to outfit a larger Chris Craft Cherokee that I have but I have had it out in some blows and it gets a little squirrly. I have raced the Ariel in 25-30 by myself and actually won, and it was pretty laid back. I missed out on a rudder that went up for sale here on the forum, otherwise I would own a new one. If your interested in building another rudder let me know. I know it sounds crazy but I probably won't take an auxiallary, so I won't need the cutout for a prop

[ebb]

Captcraig,
Wouldn't contemplate taking the boat anywhere until you have taken the rudder out of the boat.

Might get all its history from the former owner. Anything he has done for the rudder system.

I would recommend stripping the paint (using a non-caustic remover) to get a complete understanding of what you have there. EG, you might find you have a two part shaft with a aperture plug.

If you don't do the work youself, make friends with a good traditional woodworker.
Look up everything the board has here on rudders.....there's plenty.
There are different ways to have a copy of the original rudder made that will allow a NACA00XX foil and a trailing edge.

You might find a fledgling naval archetect to design the rudder.
Or contact EricSponberg www.sponbergyachtdesign.com with the problem. You'll be doing all of us a favor.

My solution for A338's new rudder is pretty radical and untried.
So far as I know, the constellated alternative rudder for an A/C has not been documented.
( Nobody has faired their rudder to the width of the keel. Or worked an NACA0012 foil onto the blade.)
The triangular rudder will be airfoiled.
Also going to use an untried technique (suggested by Chuck at Duckworks) that will sew the rudder skins together with kevlar thread.


I'm barely able to get things done for myself.
Can't take on making a second rudder.

BUT THERE ARE PROFESSIONALS ON THE BOARD WHO MAY BE PERSUADED TO BUILD A NEW RUDDER FOR YOU.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................
* A traditional bronze and mahogany rudder cannot be shaped to a thin trailing edge because of its construction.
Don't try it. There is bronze dowel, nuts, washers and screws inside the blade.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................
It has been said by sailors that adding a foil to our rudder might indeed make little if any difference to speed.
There can possibly be improvement in stalling rudder angles and going to weather, but it's unknown.

However, the 00XX foil is an aestheticly pleasing shape. The full wing is fattest back from the nose one third of its chord - the curve continues for two thirds to the trailing edge. I've layed out a TWO THIRDS 0012 foil.
To my way of thinking the front one third of this keel-hung blade is the boat itself.
Since the foil is not a complete wing but just the trailing of the foil from its thickest dimension to its thinest trailing edge.......
if I put (on the drawing paper) a straight edge from that point of the fullest section to the trailing edge.....
the actual curve of the foil (the bump-out on the blade over the span of its surface) above the straight edge......
is barely 1/4".
Not breathtaking dramatic.
This is using the NACA 0012 formula for a 1" half foil (the full symetrical thickness being 2")
I'm now checking out some 'bigger number' foils, but it's obvious - given the max thickness of the rudder - that any change in the curve (like a more pronounced curve) can't happen using this series of section profiles.
Don't know if anybody else here has a handle on this anomaly. A more dramatic curve is only possible with a thicker rudder.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
AN APPROACH FOR A NEW ARIEL RUDDER
Imco, with modern construction on the 1" rod** backbone, using welded-on plates and supreme marine plywood like meranti, epoxy, and cloth for the blade..... it is entirely credible to have a rudder properly faired to the A/C keel (at approx 2").....and also foiled to a cut-off racer's edge. There will be a bit of fudging, especially where the rudder swings at the keel.
The trailing edge of the whole aspect of our round shaped rudder CAN be brought to a NACA0012 thin trailing quarter inch termination.
It will NOT look weird, but tight, right, and handsome. And it'll be a correct and genuine UPGRADE for Alberg's traditional blade.
It's the right thing to do, imco.
A round rudder is LESS likely to get buried in mud, get damaged aground, or crab potted. If I was going to do it over, I would go for
the round one and make it with a cutout for the prop (with a plug) so that a new owner will have the option.
And not call me a DFO.
(Oh, lay out your hydrofoils on waterlines - not perpendicular from the keel)
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........................................
**OnlineMetals - six feet of "exotic" 655 silicon bronze 1" rod = $217.
OnlineMetals - six feet of 316L s.s. 1" rod = $99.

[captcraig]

A plug in the rudder is a good idea, I may change my mind about an inboard. My goal is to voyage by 2016 so I have a little time. If I can duplicate the original within reason I would be happy with that but a more high tech would be even better. This pic is an older one before I brought it south. A lot of that paint came off over last summer and I peeled some more off with a putty knife. I gave the rudder a workout last summer and didn't notice failure of any kind, but I will take it off as you suggest.9165 9164

[captcraig]

I'd rather be sailing

[captcraig]

Hey Ebb, I did want to say something about the speed of the Ariel, Commander and how an improved rudder might effect the speed. Last season I raced A 157 against a somewhat competitive handicap fleet here in OKC. You can look at the race results of over 15 races I competed in by going to okcboatclub.com go to race program and then race results. No brag just fact. Yes I am proud of the results. Many believe that the handicap numbers are a bit high for the A/C and that mya be true, because in some of the races we finished ahead of all competitors. Rudys Commander has very slick VC-17 bottom with a very fair rudder, oversized main and other nice headsails. I believe his boat is actually faster than mine due to the very slick bottom. I would have to go back and count but I think we had at least 10 first place races for the season and won the fleet championship. My point is that our boat sailed very well and fast even with these objects dragging in the water and with a pretty rough bottom paint.

[captcraig]

91699168 Major Drag

[captcraig]

My conclusion was this: It is very hard to improve on the boat as far as speed is concerned. Every little bit helps for sure but hull speed is reached and then some and then after that you just can't push em any faster. One reason we did well is the boats exceptional handling when its blowing like stink. Several of the races I mentioned were in 25mph and up. Its very windy here. Some of our competitors dropped out because of strong winds Bill please forgive me for posting the mast base photo twice, I am a klutz on the computer.

[captcraig]

One more thing, the reason I posted the knotmeter instrument is to say that I have removed it. I could not find a replacement prop. I am considering making a taffrail type unit using the knotmeter head and making a box to contain it, dragging a prop behind the boat, because the head still works beautifully. I have installed a modern knotmeter in the bulkhead but it uses power and probably won't last 50 years like this old one, lol

[Ed Ekers]

Captcraig I did go look at the okc race results and was impressed. Well done. I do have a question, why does Rudy have a different rating? Here in the SF Bay area both boats had the same rating. In fact when the Ariel class raced as a one design the Commanders raced boat for boat. Just curious???……..ed

[captcraig]

Hi Ed, Thats a good question. I strongly objected to the lower rating that I was given but relented after a explanation from our PHRF chair. Our club gives 3 points to a boat with roller furling, the reasoning is that the tack is raised and decreases performance. I'm not sure that I agree with that but thats 3 points. I also sail without a motor of any kind. Rudys boat has an outboard onboard, not in the well. That is also a 3 point increase. We both sailed with a plug in the outboard well so I don't really agree with that increase as the weight of a small outboard is minimal and even ballast when in the cabin. My biggest complaint was that generaly speaking the Ariel is much more top heavy than a Commander and not as streamlined as a Commander. The PHRF committee didn't take that into account and I'm not sure why. I could protest but the numbers didn't seem to hinder me much although I did lose a couple of races by correction only.

[Ed Ekers]

Hi Craig, I guess that just shows that each PHRF board is a creature to their self. The comment re motor weight would be consistent with our local board, but the comment about roller furling makes no sense. While I agree that as a class boat will suffer going to weather, off the wind the same boat would have an advantage.

In terms of streamline vs. top heavy I think the key number would be displacement and I think both types are pretty close regarding that number.

All that said you guys are doing really well, keep going and keep bring home the pickle dishes……ed

[captcraig]

Thank you Ed for the compliments. The offwind advantage had not occured to me. Check out my vintage stuff photos under the thread A157 in the Gallery. The boat I bought was in remarkable condition with all the old stuff in remarkable condition as well. Thanks again.

[captcraig]

918791869185 I'll post some better photos

[ebb]

REALLY SCAREY !:eek:

[ebb]

Captcraig,
Look at Miro's post on this thread #341'
Your rudder photo SEEMS to show that same original Pearson rudder.
Imco you might do as Miro and take the bloody paint off.
You want to see what's going on !

When A338's rudder and everything else (except the rudder tube) was taken apart,
Discovered that the heel fitting (rudder shoe) was barely held on by its fastenings.
When I took it off I found that half of the bottom of the keel there was broken pieces of crystalline plastic.

The hull when it was made at the factory was layed up in a single mold.
That meant that the narrow hollow of the mold at the stern had to be perfectly done.
On A338 it wasn't. The workers had not punched the fiberglass reinforcement all the way into the farthest corner where the rather short
heel fitting is mechanically connected. Even after 337 Ariels, before A338, they broke for lunch too early.
That meant when the fitting was attached with its original four pins, some went through unreinforced polyester....maybe one or two pins were doing all the work.

I see in your photo at the very bottom that part of the boat is missing.

It does look like your heel fitting is tight. BUT........
There is tremendous weight on that part of your rudder system. Guess 30 to 40 pounds deadweight.
THE WHOLE NON-BOUYANT RUDDER SYSTEM, INCLUDING THE TILLER HEAD, IS BEARING ON THE END OF THE RUDDER SHOE
There must be tremendous forces on that fitting when the rudder is really working. Assume that offshore forces will be multiplied.

I would get that rudder off and take a good look at the end of your keel by removing the heel fitting and suss if Pearson got glass down in the end there. Amount of fiberglass tenon inside the fitting is 2 to 2 1/2" wide and not much deeper. A bit crazy... whole steering system...???

Basically the rudder shoe needs to be connected with the remainder of the vessel.*
Pearson getting it perfect by hiring Azorian farmers to jam glass and smoking polyester down into the mold with broom sticks (may actually be true) was a matter of luck. Don't know about skill. After 338 Ariels, breathing all that polyester, you got skill. Ayedunknoe?

Take a good look at what you got there, before you go briney.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .
Also scanned the long c'amos quote post #355. "Sintered Bronze" is not a description of bronze rod. Sintered bronze is a high pressure powdered bronze reconstituted usually into SAE or silicone oil infused sleeve bearings.
Plain 655 cold rolled silicon bronze is the most reliable material on the planet for A/C rudder assemblies.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................


*A KEEL/HEEL EXCAVATION
Of course there is no perfect. And there are 100 ways to fix anything. This is what we did, doesn't make it gospel.
When cleaned up, the heel the tenon, that the rudder shoe was supposed to be mortised on A338, was almost non-existant!
Drilled two deep holes, six inches straight up from the bottom, into the keel. Didn't go through to the inside.
Can't recall exactly what size lag bolt, 3/8" or 1/2", step-drilled the holes so that the bronze lagbolts had to be turned really tight into position. Glued them in with epoxy. Had hex heads, washers and a bit of the shank sticking out enough so that they could be wrapped in saturated biaxial mat...

While the guys who molded the hull didn't get the bitter end of the keel done correctly, they did stuff in a bunch of cuttings and matt
against the keel-post to created a back flow ramp so that bilge water would collect more forward in the sump. This made for a very solid block to drive the bronze implants into.

Used California Casting's freshly minted rudder shoe lined it with seran wrap as the mold, filled it with saturated X-matt and jacked the fitting into place. There was still enough keel tenon & shoulder left to get it to seat exactly. Had to plan for the shoe pins so we didn't run into anchor bolts when drilling thru the rudder shoe.
We, Littlegull and I, think we have solved our Case of the Crystalline Heel from Hell. Hopeso:D

Hope this helps some.

[captcraig]

9193
Thanks Ebb, I agree the heel needs to come off when I take the rudder off as well. The fiberglass does appear to be somewhat weak above the heel. The photos look more like abstact art with some paint on and some off, the wood doesn't appear to be in bad shape but it looks rough for sure in its current state. The keel has dripped some water out this winter so the heel may be one of the places it entered. The bilge looks great so I don't think its worked its way down from there. I ordered a rudder bushing from Bill and hope to start the dismantle soon. I made a lifting frame to make working on the bottom a little easier. I need some better straps and better post but its working pretty good for now. I lifted it off the trailer and hurridly blocked the keel and put some stands under it.

[Bill]

Searching will turn up answers to your questions. For example, water in the keel:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?604-keel-voids

Also, check this thread for links to more rudder repair discussions:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2379-rudder-project&daysprune=-1

Just scrolling through the technical threads can be helpful. Using the Google search system described in the "Posting Guide" thread in the Off Topic forum is a big help in finding answers.

[ebb]

google> Building Peterson's "Susan" #9

Osage Orange everywhere!
Plus, it is one amazing photographic adventure of a wooden schooner being built. Glorious!

How abour an osage rudder, oh Sage?

[captcraig]

Farmers here in these parts planted Osage Orange in large numbers as hedges along the fields after the dust bowl to slow down the high winds we have. They realized that the branches made good fence post. Of course the indians made bows out of the hard stuff for centuries. Fence posts out of OO have been documented to last 80+ years. Would be fun to experiment with it for a rudder. Its not easy to work with though, hard as nails and the older it is the harder, so best to work with it green. Off topic but my great great grandfather was a landrunner in the Cherokee Strip Land Run and kept a day book (diary)

[ebb]

Just typed a series of 'rudder' combinations into google
and didn't come up with what foggy pictures I have of rudders I've seen here.

google is inconsistant when it comes to how far it ventures into threads.
IT's not good at all if visuals are not matched exactly with words.

Have picctures in my head of rudders that guys have made.....but I don't recall where they are.......some were great, some not so great......but all should be studied. You may have to scan major contrubutors in the Gallery to locate any photos of rebuilt rudders.

There is one Ariel site on google (Archimedes?) where a guy has videoed himself cutting his rudder in half to get it out of the boat.....because he is on the hard.
Looks like you are in a similar quandary, unable to drop the rudder......
Unable to make the decision to trash your rudder. Really hard decision.

But if you are almost certain that you will be having a new rudder,
you might study what others have done and come up with a couple of options.

TWO PIECE SHAFT
A decent machine shop can bend 1" rod using their brake. It's really a mild easy bend.
When you have the bend you can locate and cut the keyway for the tillerhead. Have them do it.
Excavate the keyway on a lathe - before bending. The trick is to get it exactly lined up with tiller and blade.
Mill an extra keyway on the opposite side:
Ria a quadrant? wind vane connect? emergency tiller? other design (Edson) tillerhead? shaft mounted rudder stop?
The bottom straight piece can easily be milled on a lathe for the 3/4" bearing.
The Ariel rudder has to be made with 1" rod because the heel fitting limits the diameter of the shaft.
And so does the tube that guides the shaft into the cockpit. We're stuck with what we got.
Can see the original two piece shaft rudder recreated with meranti ply, epoxy and kevlar.

Imco it is possible to create a strong modern cruising rudder using modern methods and materials....as already said.
Came up with some utterly rediculous ideas of how to design a rudder that is able to be removed from he boat without digging a hole.
They all had to be abandoned.
However, once the old rudder is out, building a mockup out of wood dowel and doorskin can lead to ideas you share with other dreamers.
If that is comfortable, until you reach a concenus. Then get an experienceed guy/shop to build it, or yourself. Supervise it.

Ebb opted for a single length shaft. I'm stuck with it. Also had a very talented welder create the armature using everdur flat plate (instead of
smaller diameter rod like the original.) Committed self to the triangle rudder. Would change things, but no - too friggin late!

[If you take a look at LF HERRESHOFF's ROZINANTE (www.woodenboat.com/) WoodenBoat sells plans, you'll find a drawing of this master's famous 28' daysailor.
OK, cutaway full keel with keelhung rudder just like Ariel/Commander...... the Rozinante rudder is inspiring.
It's nearly rectangular in length. If I had the time I'd mock up that rudder, maybe a bit taller, maybe tilt it up to fair with the hull like Alberg does with ours.....give it exactly the same square inches as Alberg designed.....and see what happens with the blade.
Rectangular blades can be given an airfoil that would work like an airfoil. See if it can have some of the sexy roundness both master's have in their rudders.....but maybe a little less, just a little.......
Anybody see that herreshoff on their boat?]

A338 HAD A RECTANGULAR RUDDER WHEN I GOT IT. Still have it.
It raced against other Ariels as SUN QUEST on San Francisco Bay.
Wonder how it did, wonder how it steered VS the original that all the others still have?
Steered fine for me when I sailed it. My experience very limited.

[Bill]

Ebb, maybe you were looking for this on rudders?

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1882-Commander-256-%28Ceili%29

Go to page 10, post #136 to see rudder discussion. May be more elsewhere in thread, but you need to scroll to find . . .

[ebb]

my my my my.....yes, this guy.....can't say: Chance is 'one of the best'...
Chance has the best damn control of methods and materials I've ever seen.
Of course, that doesn't say it....whotduayeknow?
He's the master! He does incredibly beauiful work!
The photgraphs he's provided are wonderfully detailed. Even the ugly stuff looks good.

And captcraig will find time well spent visiting there.
Respectfully, me too.

Thanks Bill!

[captcraig]

That is quite a rudder project no doubt. Inspired and on my way to the shop, lol

[captcraig]

9197 Removed the rudder last night and it appears to be pretty solid. There is a gap between the seperate boards which allows a little flex when pushing down on the trailing laying flat on a table. Would love to have a new one but... Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?

[captcraig]

91999198 The shoe looked good from the outside but I could see a puddle of water down inside the shoe, so I removed it to inspect the heel. Sand and dirt are inside the shoe

[captcraig]

920292019200 The heel in pretty good shape, shoe off, the red part on the inside is where water was puddled, the shoe cleaned up a little

[captcraig]

Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.

[Bill]

9197 .. Can anyone explain or show pics of how this original rudder is assembled?

There is a tech drawing in the appendix to the owner's manual that illustrates the rudder construction.

[mbd]

Does anyone have advice to offer when reinstalling the shoe? I would like to use the same peen type pins if they can still be purchased. Also considered 5200 or 4200 for a watertite seal to the heel. Your feedback would be great.
Here's a good thread by the PO of Ariel 24. Tim did some really great work. (starts on post #52)
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1558-Ariel-24/page2

More rudder discussions here:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2379-rudder-project&p=24545#post24545

[ebb]

really good for locating the 3/8" FLATHEAD MACHINE SCREWS.

You can get FULL BODY slotted SBFHMS 3/8-16 from TopNotchFasteners in sizes from 2 1/12" to 16". At very reasonable prices for exactly what you'd need for a rebuild.

Full body means you are not using allthead which for its size is weaker than FB unthreaded.
Look on the trailing end for plugs.
Also I think I recall a small third 'plank' was (sometimes?) added to make the profile curve. That was screwed on with wood screws from the trailing edge.


Assume the 'bronze' of the old sweet water rudder will probably run into problems sooner or later in salt.

C46400 NAVAL BRONZE is a tricky alloy. It's an alloy of 60% copper 39.2% zinc and 0.8% tin. It is traditionally used for shafting.
It's other name is Naval Brass. But the addition of tin allows it to be called a bronze. And it is pretty strong stuff. But not galvanically.
0.8% tin is added for an equal quantity of zinc. It makes the 'brass' more resistant to dezincification. But not entirely, high zinc alloys (including 30% zn manganese bronze) always end up porous...... under salt water.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................

Captcraig, What would you have done if someone had 5200ed your ruddershoe onto the keel?

PEENING COPPER ROD....SparTalk Brion Toss - Peening copper rod 6.29.07

[captcraig]

9203 Thank you Bill, Mike, Ebb, When I took the boat off the trailer it was just high enough to place 3 concrete blocks underneath in series which by dumb luck was just high enough to slide the rudder out, whew. Ok Bill you talked me into buying a manual and yes Ebb I'm glad someone didn't have the bright idea to 5200 the shoe on to the heel. The third plank appears to be put together with drift pins and maybe the second as well. I'll know more once its clean. It does look exactly like the rudder in post 100, of this thread. I have been scouring the forum and searching. I'll check out all those post you pointed out soon. Thanks again

[Ariel 109]

You can buy copper rod at McMaster-Carr. It's easy and fun to hammer and peen rivets.

http://www.mcmaster.com/#copper-rods/=r0en3w

[ebb]

Drift pins are usually metal.
If metal (bronze or copper) hopefully the planks will separate as they loose moisture
and you can use an ocillating blade like a Fein Tool (buy a cheaper one with a Bosch
dog leg metal cutting blade) to separate the planks.
Before you start cutting see if you can DISASSEMBLE the fastenings.

On the edge of the plank if they are wood - look closely for end grain if a dowel. If flat grain it's a plug and there is
a slothead just inside.

If you are seeing a fat shadow in the crack, that's a 3/8" machine screw (flathead bolt) or screw. Not likely wood.
Remove the little 3rd 'plank' first (if there is one), see what's inside. Might find some nuts and washers. Or just screws.
Bolts you can get out of there - but probably not drift pins. I'd be surprised if drift pins were used.

IN THE 1"D SHAFT (stock)
You really need the drawing to locate the fastenings. BUT, of course you can 'see' the heads in the metal shaft.
There are three screws or bolt heads in each section of the shaft.
"Upper rudder stock and lower rudder stock" on the drawing.

Top of the rudder at the beginning of the blade:
First fastener is a bolt - just before the bend - which presumably goes thru the first board (it is listed as 6" long.)
Next fastening is a 5" #18 screw - goes thru the bent part of the shaft.
The lag screw might be difficult to get out. Use a driver that fits tight and to the bottom of the slot of the head.
[Ancient tip: See if it'll tighten first, a tiny bit - that might help start it, then back it out.]
Third at the end of the bent shaft is said to be another 6" bolt.

Lower straight shaft has a 6" bolt near the cut out - at the top of the lower stock.
Assume that goes thru the first board also.
Next two fastenings are shown to be 5" screws.
6 fastenings total. 3 screws, 3 bolts.

You will note these boards are not glued together. They were bedded with a non-adhesive compound.
This allows the rudder to breathe when it is in and out of the water.
It will tend to keep the rudder from cupping and bowing.
It's natural for the cracks to appear. The rudder will swell closed again in the water.
Talked with one rudder rebuilder here who glued his together - and reported his blade had not bowed.


Toast that "solid" Honduras M.
50 years, hard working, drowned, drillrd, neglected, poisoned, and still a champ. That's amazing !

[captcraig]

Hey Ebb, yer right once again. Screws in the rudder. Was walking by the rudder and took a look in bright sunlight this morn and there was a mahog plug and another, one fell off in my hand. Slotted screws ahoy. I read most of Tims Rudder/Keel project and that is an excellent article to understand the complex keel setup. Not as simple as I had imagined. The mould idea using the old shoe appeals to me. Thank you guys for pointing out those post. Haven't read the other project yet but will.

[captcraig]

92059204 The mahogony plug that came off when I brushed it with my hand. The more I look at the rudder the better it looks, the wood is still very dense.

[captcraig]

92079206 Good wood cleaned up, now for the rest of it. Sharpest edge on trailing edge at left and wood plug to right

[captcraig]

92099208 The plastic bushing was at the base of the fiberglass tube, it polished the brass. Original hardware, plastic bushing top left, new bushing in center from the Association.

[captcraig]

All the rest of my progress will be posted on my thread "Ariel 157" in the Gallery.

[ebb]

(left side of photo - bottom 416)
On that head fitting.... that sits on the "stock".... looks like
it's missing a CAP SCREW. Did you remiove it?


A few observations:
That screw is meant to squeeze one of the cheeks it goes thru
around the shaft....so the tillerhead won't pull off too easy.
And also help keep the square key from moving around.

It's not a bolt that goes there! The fat cheek is threaded to receive the screw.
The thinner cheek has no threads - it's meant to slip the cap screw
Looks like it's supposed to tighten the thinner cheek a skoch.....
BUT it's impossible to move it by screwing in the ittybitty cap screw.
You may break the SB hexhead- fullthreasd 1"-5/16-18
capscrew if you want to close the gap with it.

After cleaning crud out of the 'crack', when reassembling, before you
screw in the bolt, bend the cheek closed (1/32" - 1/16") around the shaft
with a 'C' clamp,
(To make it easier, try to 'pre-bend' it before slipping it on the shafthead. Careful....)
THEN turn the cap screw in with LANOCOTE or Tefgel.... just barely tight.
Lanocote the key too. I'd smear it on everything - keeps the salt crystals out.


50 years ago, when it was new, it probably fit pretty good. Now the rudder head
sits loose on the shaft. Somebody here SHIMMED his with a piece of pepsicola can.
(onlinemetals has pure soft copper shim sheets. Like a footsquare for $8)

At least one other owner has drilled and tapped his rudder head for one or two
316 SET SCREWS (10-24 - McMCarr) that penetrate into the rudderhead KEYWAY
- to press the key against the shaft.
The problem with that is remembering them when it comes time to take it apart.

A great idea is also to countersink the KEY to receive CONEPOINT set screws
to keep the key from slipping out of the head keyway. Imagine the strain on
the top of the shaft there .....as you push & pull the tiller a million times.
One more thing that removes slop from the steering system.
.................................................. .........................................
Photo at 415... Oddest looking plug I evah did see!
Whuts in there?

[captcraig]

I've decided to make a template using the existing rudder, so that I can duplicate the size and shape of the original. After that, dismantling of the existing rudder will begin. Hey Ebb, slotted screws behind those plugs just like you said.

[ebb]

While not absolute, because of the number of times a drawing has been copied,
this may get you closer to Alberg's lines (rather than Pearson's).
That is an assumption. There is no way of being sure that copies in the Manual are correct,
(or that the Pearson rudder on the boat is Alberg accurate) but imco this is what we have to work with.

Take the rudder lines drawing (pg 170) from the Manual to a copy shop.
Have them zoom the picture to a 12 Scale Rule (1"= 1')

[Available 6" and 12" rulers - with inch separations in 12 parts - rather than standard 8-16 parts.
Got mine off the internet. But an art supply shop might have the rulers.]

Zoom the drawing to a known measure of the rudder.
For instance, the lower stock on the drawing is 24" - plus the 3/4" that goes into the shoe.
So, at the copyshop, you might scale the lower rudder stock drawing to an actual 12" or 6" or 3" using this one known measure.
With a very thin point pen, draw a 12 Scale grid on the quarter or half sized scaled up copyshop rendition of the whole rudder blade.
Then lay out a full sized grid on your shop table, and translate the rudder lines to it.....almost directly from the master's hand.

Wood battens may help lay out the curves.
I have an Acu-Arc 1033-48 48" Adjustable Curve (a bit pricey)
It is composed of a number of sliding interlocking plastic strips that easily bend and sortof
hold the shape while you carefully trace the template you have layed out.
Hope this helps.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................
Took all Manual Ariel drawings to the copyshop and had them zoom and print the A/C to an exact 9 1/8" inch waterline (18' 6")
- thereby creating 'to scale' drawings which produce pretty much accurate measures - using the 1" = 1' doll-house ruler.
Another quick measure to check zoom accuracy at the copyshop is the length of the mast*: 15"......every 1/2" = 1'.
* exactly 15", deck to the mast head, but not including the masthead fitting or crane.
[The only Alberg heliga graal signed lines drawings are on pgs 144 & 145 in the Manual.]

Don't know that Pearson delivered Ariel's with an 18' 6" waterline. Has anybody ever actually measured??

[captcraig]

Well I have taken the rudder apart somewhat and put back together a little bit. Thanks Ebb for that advice, I'll be buying a manual soon and using your advice to build a new rudder. I am going to keep the old for a spare and restore it as best I can. The third board (trailing board) had three drift pins in it and wood screws at each end. Its solid so I'm leaving it alone.9211 9210 The top fastener on the bronze rod is a machine thread that goes to this nut and washer holding the first board to the rudder shaft.

[captcraig]

9212 The second fastener is a wood screw holding the first board to the rudder post, the third fastener is a machine thread bolt the same length as the first but going beyond the first board into the second board (pencil is pointing to the area where nut and washer are still buried under paint) I was able to tighten that bolt a quarter turn after first removing it and cleaning it. I also cleaned bottom paint out of the crack between board 1 and board 2. The wood plug was only attached with the short straps and two short wood screws at an angle.

[captcraig]

9213 Showing the wood screw

[captcraig]

92159214 Pearson plastic in the holes?

[captcraig]

9216 The Wood Rudder is slowing appearing.

[Bisquit]

I am just about done with rehabbing the hull and deck and about to start with the repower project. I am going to install a Yanmar 2GM. The boat was originally powered with an outboard so I figured I would start to poke around and see what was involved with cutting the window in the keel and rudder, installing the shaft log and building an engine bed. When I started to sound the keel where the window should be I noticed a decidedly different sound. It sounded like a different laminate schedule than the rest of the keel so I cut a bit out and discovered that the boat was built for an inboard and they glassed over the window. A little cutting and a few minutes with a pry bar and viola. I have my keel window. I was prepared for a fairly involved glass job and now all I have to do is clean up a little tabbing and install the shaft log. I hope the rudder is as easy. It appears the stock is set up for a window too. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

9756

9757

9759

9758

[Bill]

Yes, the rudder has a cutout for the prop . . . unless it was changed by an earlier owner.

[Bisquit]

Looks like I have the original rudder. lucked out again. Not much room for a prop.

9760

[ebb]

Maybe not exactly time for that.
But I happen to be in an email discussion with a lady whose taken the time to look up the
Pearson Ariel, understand it's challenges and dimensions... in regard to the Finnish OceanVolt
electric motor system I happened upon.
They have a saildrive and a horizontal, I call it, option. Remove your Atomic 4, trade it for an
OceanVolt electric inboard, add 15.000..... Find places for the lithiums, and >BOP< happy
sailing forever!

Once you get past the brochure, imco, we are left one problem that really never has been
solved. That is: how do we seal the shaft that the propeller turns on where it goes thru the
hull? There certainly is a need for visual inspection and, of course, maintenance to keep both
the newer bellows dripless face seal type stuffing box happy... and the good oldstyle lip seal
using cutlass bearings. Both require perfect installs to remain dripless for any length of time.

We live in an age of synthetic rubbers and amazing metal alloys, yet manufacturers still use
naval bronze (brass) for the bodies and unsophisticated rubber (nitril) for sealing. Their
systems still depend on miniature set screws that are buried inaccessible in their installation.
Victorian technology in an age of space craft and Gun Boats.

In our Ariel/Commanders, access to that bearing 'box', after the motor is installed, is, as I
understand it, impossible. Except from outside.
If the motor is removed, I don't fit anyway under the cockpit where the stuffing box lives...

If we are setting the boat up for seasonal use, being close to haul out facilities, will give us
peace of mind. If the boat is going foreign, cruising, and constantly in water ... or if like
most of us we'll be forgetting about the damn thing... that last thing we want is a hole in
the hull that can't be reached immediately....once we figure out where the leak is coming
from... to fix. Ya sure by golly!

That's why I've always thought our OB option was the perfect answer.
Can't imagine a damp oily foul smelling bilge that has to be
constantly pumped out by equally unreliable electric pumps and warning systems.
Even a constant bitty drip is a leak that can escalate into disaster.

Also take exception to rudders with holes in them, both from rudder strength and steering
control.... Well, that's the way I see it....

How are you going to approach yours???:D

[Bisquit]

I like the electric but I want a little more range. I have a Yanmar 2GM that I think will fit the bill. I was going to use a dripless stuffing box. PYI sells the PSS stuffing box and they work pretty well however they need to be burped after launch. http://www.shaftseal.com/en/categories/300000001. I am pretty sure that I will be able to access the stuffing box and burp it by climbing into the lazerette and laying on my side. I am not so worried about holes in the boat as many seem to be. They just need to be installed correctly and maintained. I plan to install a shaft log http://catalog.buckalgonquin.com/item/sailboat-shaft-logs-2/bronze-sailboat-shaft-log-bearing-housings-short/10slw1002 and attach the stuffing box to that. I plan to cut out the cockpit floor above the engine so I can lay up a proper engine bed with a lip that will catch any oil leaks and/or the fuel drips. I have a jig to line up the engine bed so i pretty confident that I can get the alignment right. I did not recore the cockpit floor when I did the other deck work in anticipation of this install. The floor comes out this weekend.

[Bisquit]

I am thinking of making a couple of modifications to my rudder this winter. I would like to open up the aperture a bit so I can install a feathering prop and adding a little more surface area (10% of so) to the trailing edge. After removing the corrector weight from the boat I have a little more weather helm than I would like. Any thoughts?

[pbryant]

I am thinking of making a couple of modifications to my rudder this winter. I would like to open up the aperture a bit so I can install a feathering prop and adding a little more surface area (10% of so) to the trailing edge. After removing the corrector weight from the boat I have a little more weather helm than I would like. Any thoughts?

Presuming you are not a fanatical racer who has cut the handle off your toothbrush to reduce laden weight, have you considered adding ballast to compensate? I added 150 pounds of leadshot in 25 pound bags (#8 buckshot purchased at a gun shop for $2 per pound). After much experimentation, I placed the leadshot ballast in the bilge under the forward inspection hatch. Leadshot bags conform nicely to the shape of their surroundings, with no pressure points. Your situation, and location of ballast, will be different of course. But adjusting the longitudinal center of gravity by adding ballast seems to be a far simpler approach to making fine adjustments in trim than modifying the rudder. Just an idea...

[Bisquit]

Presuming you are not a fanatical racer who has cut the handle off your toothbrush to reduce laden weight, have you considered adding ballast to compensate? I added 150 pounds of leadshot in 25 pound bags (#8 buckshot purchased at a gun shop for $2 per pound). After much experimentation, I placed the leadshot ballast in the bilge under the forward inspection hatch. Leadshot bags conform nicely to the shape of their surroundings, with no pressure points. Your situation, and location of ballast, will be different of course. But adjusting the longitudinal center of gravity by adding ballast seems to be a far simpler approach to making fine adjustments in trim than modifying the rudder. Just an idea...

I think that would probably work I should have given it a try before I hauled for the season. I like the performance I am seeing since I removed the extra ballast. In moderate to heavy air (over 15 knots) is when it becomes a problem. I think a lot of things are contributing to the extra helm. I have an over sized main and my jib is a 170%. I should probably address it there but since I was thinking of modifying the aperture I thought adding the extra surface area to the trailing edge would not be too much extra effort.

[mbd]

... I have an over sized main and my jib is a 170%. ...
Good lord that is a lot of sail area! When the wind got over 12 MPH or so, I would tuck in a reef and change to my %100 jib and A-414 would sail beautifully and balanced AND up to hull speed no problem - and no weather helm at all. That was my favorite sail configuration for the Ariel. Of course I'm not a left coast sailor, but hull speed is hull speed. :cool:

[Bill]

Above 18 knots, SF Bay sailors use a 110 jib. Above 25 knots, we "might" put a reef in the main :cool:

[carl291]

Hi, I think for a feathering prop to fit that would be quite a large "bit" of opening up on the rudder. If you should decide to go this route, I have a feathering prop that I could offer you for a large savings, it's off a 30 ft Catalina. (A4 engine)

[Bisquit]

I may me interested. I have a line on a 3 blade Gori. What brand and model do you have?

[Lucky Dawg]

Re my Gallery post, I'm trying to find a recent rudder build pictured on the forum somewhere. It isn't in this thread. It had long bronze L's welded to the shaft. May have been two pieces of mahogany sandwiched together. Maybe you've seen it? My dull brain needs step by step instructions with pictures that goes beyond what is in the manual!

[Scott Galloway]

During a haul out in late July 2018, we discovered that the mahogany rudder blade on my Pearson Ariel was eroded due to alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. The zinc was in very good condition after more than a full year in the water. The copper strap connecting zinc to the rudder bolt within the body of the rudder blade had been broken (likely due to metal fatigue incurred when a diver was cleaning the rudder blade while installing a new zinc). We considered repairing the rudder blade with epoxy, but upon examining the upper bronze rudder shaft, we decided to replace the rudder. The bronze rudder shaft was badly eroded in the vicinity of the top rudder blade bolt. Since other Ariel rudders have failed in this same location, and in light of the evident corrosion, we decided to replace the rudder.

The rudder was removed on August 1, 2018 in the slings just before the boat was splashed. The rear part of the keel was cleaned with scraping tools and sand paper to clean it and open it up in preparation for the new fiberglass over wood rudder, which was to be constructed of a wood and fiberglass using a stainless steel shaft and blade support structure.

While waiting for the new custom professionally built rudder, I repaired the decks repairs a few gelcoat gouges, and resurfaced the non-skid areas using Interlux Brightside one-part polyurethane.

We hauled the boat again on September 26, 2018. The boat remained in slings while the new rudder was fitted to the keel. The new rudder was built on a shaft made by
of 304 tight tolerance stainless steel rod welded to 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods that run through and support the rudder blade.

The rudder blade was built of Kiln Dried Douglas Fir 2X6 and 2X4 boards secured to the shaft by nuts secured to the 1/2 inch all-thread stainless steel rods. The kiln dried fir boards that compose the rudder core were glued together with and all voids were filled with West Systems Epoxy. The boards were then shaped by sanding to an improved more aerodynamic shape with a larger blade that tapers to the trailing edge as shown in the attached photos. The last 1/2 inch of the trailing edge was built of epoxy resin. The rudder, including the stainless steel shaft where it abutted the rudder blade, was then wrapped with 6 oz fiberglass cloth saturated with E West Systems epoxy, sanded to fair and then coated with Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat. The stainless steel shaft was wrapped with one layer of cloth. Two layers of cloth were applied to the rudder blade. Finally, while the second barrier coat layer was still wet, Petit Trinidad bottom paint was applied. This layer was followed by two additional layers of Petit Trinidad.

The rudder was installed in the slings. The original bronze rudder shaft was bent, and the shaft had wobbled about in the rudder tube until the bushing was set into & tiller head in its place at the top rim of the rudder tube. A shim as used with the old bronze shaft. The new stainless steel rudder shaft is straight. When installed, it initially pressed hard against the aft rim of the rudder tube. The bushing was installed around the new rudder shaft by manually pulling the top the shaft forward, inserting the bushing, and then tapping it down into position using a wood block driven by plastic mallet. No shim is required with the new shaft.

The new rudder was tested on the day of installation by sailing a distance of approximately 10 nm in winds ranging from five to fifteen knots with seas of approximately two feet. The rudder performed well. Top speed was over 7 knots. Speeds of 6 knots were sustained while beating and close reaching based on GPS speed with 10 to 15 knots of wind.

The dotted line on the photo below of the rudder (shown before application of fiberglass) is an outline of the old (original) rudder profile. The new rudder is shown in other photos after application of fiberglass, after application of Interlux 2000 Barrier Coat, after application Petit Trinidad bottom paint, and as mounted on the boat in the slings just before splashing the boat. Additional photos of the old rudder are include din the follow-up post.

[Scott Galloway]

The photos below show the old damaged rudder blade in the area of the rudder zinc and the old rudder in 2004 during a previous haul out.

[Bisquit]

How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?

[Bisquit]

Looks great by the way!

[Scott Galloway]

Question asked: "How is your weather helm? Did it increase with the added surface area of the new rudder?"

My Answer: The profile (surface area) of the rudder is larger. The leading edge of the rudder is necessarily the same width due to the shaft width, but the rudder tapers to the trailing edge, as can be seen in some of the photos in my earlier post. The final 1/2 inch of the trailing edge is epoxy. If you look closely at the photo of the fir rudder blade that was taken prior to the application of fiberglass, you will see a dashed black line. That line shows the profile of the original rudder. The line should help you visualize the areas where the profile of the rudder was enlarged.

Yes, the weather helm has been reduced as a result of the new design. While at sea if I am sailing alone, I generally use sheet-to-tiller self steering system to steer the boat, so that I am free to handle the sails, navigate and serve as look-out. I am still tweaking the settings on that system to adjust for the decreased pressure on the new rudder due to the reduction in weather helm. As far the boat speed goes, my Ariel seems to be running faster to weather. This would be expected due to an improved, more aerodynamic rudder design.

Below is a photo of the old rudder taken during my recent haul-out in July showing damage to the mahogany rudder blade due to erosion resulting from alkaline conditions produced by the rudder zinc that had been installed on the rudder. Whether this damage was accelerated by the broken copper strap that once connected that zinc to one of the bolts tying the rudder blade to the shaft, I do not know, but I suspect from my research on this topic that placing a zinc on a wood rudder is not a good idea regardless of whether or not that zinc is connected to the bronze or steel rudder support structure.

[Commander43]

Scott, You mentioned in your October 31, 2018 post that you purchased a new custom professionally built rudder for your Ariel. Can you tell me who/where you purchased it from? Joe Starck (Commander Hull #43)

[Scott Galloway]

Scott, You mentioned in your October 31, 2018 post that you purchased a new custom professionally built rudder for your Ariel. Can you tell me who/where you purchased it from? Joe Starck (Commander Hull #43)

Joe,

Sorry for the delay. I missed you post earlier. My new rudder was custom designed and built for my boat by Lighthall Marine on Santa Cruz, CA.

[kkuhrman]

I purchased Commander #274 (Old Glory) 2 days ago after having a thorough marine survey conducted. The rudder has a fiberglass layer over the wood core. The fiberglass layer is visibly damaged and the wood exposed. Looks like she struck something at the bottom of Lake Michigan. In any case, after reading every post on this thread today and exchanging comments with an Ariel owner at the same yard, I’m torn on whether to simply remove the glass and refinish the wood underneath (ok, I choose to be an optimist here) or replace the fiberglass layer after drying/refinishing the wood core. Everything I’ve read, including Don Casey’s book on sailboat repair suggests a wet rudder of wood in the water provides better “neutral buoyancy” than one covered with fiberglass and thus improves performance. But the same sources suggest wet wood is an invitation to problems. So what to do? Our sailing season is seven months and the boat will be in a cradle in indoor heated storage during the cold months.

[LuckyBag]

Hi, I cannot offer guidance, I recently purchased a Triton with what appears to be the original wooden rudder in pretty decent shape. I'm trying to determine if glassing over would add strength and overall life, or whether to simply splash it and let the wood swell with the water and use it for the season. Will be interested to what people suggest.

[ebb]

Hi, I'm a member of 'The Alberg Design Fleet of San Francisco', which is essentially the former
Triton fleet of San Francisco Bay. You may find us on the internet. And you might find a way
to contact one or all of the active members. The Triton rudder hangs on two gudgeons, and is
toptally different than the A/C rudder. Some of the Triton rudders have had to be completely
rebuilt. But I think you will find, if yours is in great shape, is to do as you say "splash it and let
the wood swell".
I hope you can find a Triton owner who will advise you. Good luck.

[Hull376]

I want to get measurements for the total length of the rudder shaft from the tiller head down to the tip of the boss. I measured this the last time my boat was out for a bottom job but I seem to have lost the piece of paper I wrote it on! All the boats are slightly different so I know any numbers I look at will probably not be what my Ariel’s shaft is precisely. I did make a pattern of the rudder and that has survived! For Reference is a list of measurements provided by commander Pete some years ago and another photo of my Rudder in better days. At the last haul out the wood looks thin from years of sanding to the point where the third board was warping away from the second board. It’s now still 1 inch thick at the shaft and less than 1/2 inch thick at the trailing edge of the third plank, which is starting to “fail!” The yard encapsulated it (third pic) but their experience has been that it’s a stop gap measure and it will delaminate over the next two or three years. So I will build a new one following the existing design. It is truly astounding how long a Mahogany rudder will last in salt water!

[Hull376]

Anyone who still has their total rudder shaft length measurement hanging around on a piece of paper that hasn’t been lost should post it for me! It would be great if I had a few more than just Commander Pete’s. I know they will all be different but if they are all in the same ballpark, I could just have mine cut a little bit on the longer side, have the keyway cut a little longer, and then cut the top to the right size for my boat. I’m assuming, and that may be bad, that the differences in the length wouldn’t amount to more than an inch or so. But then again Pearson wasn’t known for measuring twice and cutting once! Oh, I forgot to mention that since I have an outboard model, I will go with a single piece shaft.

[Hull376]

Also, my experience with the gaps between the planks when on the hard and the rudder has dried out a little bit completely disappear when submerged in the water. Those gaps are nonexistent when the boat is first hauled. My existing rudder is constructed with drift pins.

[ebb]

OK, hope this helps. Happen to still have the rudder that came with (then called SunQuest)


I found the worn groove in the cup to be wide but the machining in the bottom of the groove was
still pretty tight. So rather than custom making a truncated key out of larger key rod (which later
wld be stupid to replace) I used regular square 1/4" and added two set screws thru the side of
the cup and cone-pointed them into the key -- seems pretty tight!!

Sorry seems so complicated. But you do have actual measures here, but whether it's Factory
it's probably not exact. But Could be!!!

The litlgull hydrofoil rudder is covered on ebb's gallery page.





WOW look at nthis most of this mpost erased itself (anybody download it?????"?""?"?"?"?

[Hull376]

Hey Ebb, thanks for the quick reply to this. I haven’t posted in a couple years and I need to do more as I do some redo and maintenance on my boat. I’m going to re-read your post and digest it. Then I may have some follow-up questions. An important take away is your emphasis on the alignment of everything.

I had taken a screen shot of your post and it’s attached a few posts below

[Hull376]

Ebb, I had tried to get a rough estimate of the shaft length looking at the drawing in the manual, and found that a total length was not on the drawing unless I missed it. It shows the two piece inboard shaft. I estimated the missing straight piece of shaft for an outboard model by using blocks on a piece of graph paper using the 10” dimension on the drawing. The estimate doing this is 14.5” for the straight shot in the middle of the rudder/shaft drawing. So when I added it all up, 30” + 14.5”+ 24 3/4”= 69 1/4”............ exactly what you measured out was needed for your new shaft! I notced. in the drawing revision notes that the upper shaft was modified in 1965 for the commander, which seems to imply that it may measure differently than an Ariel. In 1962 the upper Ariel shaft was shortened to 30”— hummmm, wonder why!

[ebb]

Great! I hjad a quantity left over. How many years has it Been?
Still have a couple pieces of form to glue in.

What surprised me the most, my gluing also has held up!, the
hull is non-porus, and the foam is closed cell, I worried about the
glue not drying or setting. Waited til the "last minute" holding
the rubber off (past its repositioning window) then carefully
pressing it onto the hull. I got such a positive join that a painter
I hired began painting the foam "thinking" it was the hull.
Good on us!!


Noticed that the long carefull measurement post above has eraswed itself, I HATE computers

[Bill]

It's called "operator error!"

[Bill]

Kent, please keep the subject on the rudder here. Other subjects - water based glue, etc. - should be posted in your Gallery thread.

[Hull376]

Ebb, I had an image copy of your message that I’m posting below.

[ebb]

FANTASTIC, KENT.

But I had gone back in the text after your download and 'corrected' it..
where I had thought my finish cut was two (or so) inches longer. But, no, here
we see in Kent's research that ebb, mucking about, has somehow come out
with what is probably


THE ACTUAL OA STOCK LENGTH OF THE RUDDER. [69 1/4"]
(That used to be called serendipity.)

(Not withstanding Com. Pete who probably has given this to us years ago,
BUT that the cockpit in the Commander might be higher because extra crew
Pearson may have been allowed for, therefor a higher waterline for the cockpit
sole. Thus maybe a longer stock on the Commander rudder.

{Why does the Commander have those higher and very handsome coamings?
AND Commander's have no bridge usually, which would allow seats to be
positioned higher up.)

That is: unless Kent has shown us otherwise,
that the rudder's in the Ariel and Commander are exactly equal.



__________________________________________________ _____________
Talking about tillers .. TILLER DISCUSSIONS .. on the first page
Commander Pete has an old/new photo of two tillers side by side..

This where ebb obviously got the idea.
I do believe the tiller should be down, or in the housed position,
when underway and steering. Because of the heavy loads the
tiller has to deal with. Also in the no-knee-bang cobra position
when sitting, the bowed tiller is easily handed, push and pulled..
GO SEE.

__________________________________________________ ____
The more gradual curve of C'Pete's curved tiller, makes me
think that his is an off-the-shelf class Ranger tiller. Only a higher
bow will clear knees.

[Scott Galloway]

Reply to Hull 376

I measured the length of the bronze shaft on what I presume to be the original mahogany rudder on my 1965 Pearson Ariel (Hull #330) today, Nov 30, 2020. I removed and replaced that rudder in 2018. I have not removed the shaft from the rudder. I have been storing the rudder intact in my shed since it was replaced in 2018.

My boat is an outboard model. As you are aware, the rudder shafts on both the inboard and outboard models were manufactured in two parts, so the overall length of the shafts would be dependent on the actual dimensions of the wood rudder to which the shaft is attached.

I suppose there could have been some longitudinal shrinkage of the wood, which could have reduced the length of the shaft overall, but I can’t think of any reason why the shaft would be longer today than it was on the day it was removed from the boat.

In any case, the shaft that I measured today was just over 70 inches (between 70 inches and 70 1/16 inches, but it was closer to 70 inches than it was to 70 1/16 inches). My measurement was made with a metal tape measure stretched from the top of the shaft to the bottom including the boss at the bottom. So that would make it longer than the 69 1/4 inches that you came up with from the drawing and Ebb's measurement of the new shaft length on his boat. Our boats were built in different years. There could have been some variation between years and perhaps even between individual boats manufactured during the same year.f

[ebb]

Hey Scott, howzitgoin!!
Great we're weighing in on this subject! My 72" measurement came from
the length of the stock when I bought it. Also I had a working well and just
assumed I would have a single length shaft.
When playing around with the blade shape. completely forgot the two piece
shaft.
And when I got into hydrofoils, decided the propeller hole in the rudder had
to be ignored. The top of the rudder, sticking out, with Kent doing the
actual measuring from the drawing, and confirming what I got "mucking
about",
is not proof of anything -- but gratifying. (even tho I thot I was making the
rudder shaft a little longer..) Can ascribe this to length of old age. But to
serendipity of Kent's independent confirmation from the drawing. And it's
Scott who has the longer rudder!!

BUT, Ebb thinks there is only one, maybe two, drawings in the Manual that
are signed by Alberg. All others seem to be not quite so accurate copies from
the copiers. [Look at the size of the cabin windows the copiers didn't copy so
well.. On the drawings of Ariels.]

3/4" seems about the right amount to have good warm discussions about..
along with our favorite libations.. and a platter of savory horse doers.

[Scott Galloway]

I have attached a photo of the top end of the rudder shaft with the tiller removed. This photo was taken in 2010. The photo shows the top of the original bronze shaft on my boat (Hull 330). At the time that this photo was taken, I had just replaced the plastic bushing and lubed the top end of the shaft. As you can see in the photo, the shaft extends some distance above the fiberglass shaft tube.

[ebb]

Scott, Looks right!
But if that's right, you needed that extra 3/4".

And you know, with no OB cowl and tiller intruding,
some extra height could be gained with a longer shaft!!

Here the problem comes when the tiller is upright
to tame it in the cockpit. how much room for the
upright tillerhead is required.

Tillerhead is quite close to the end of the cockpit there.

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

I really don't have any problem with the existing rudder post position or tiller configuration. I do not feel that I need to extend the rudder shaft or use a modified tiller. I steer the boat with my outboard handle protruding forward through the open lazarette hatch while motoring with the lazarette hatch wide open. I get more fresh air to the outboard that way anyway.

The tiller on my boat is most likely the original 1965 stock tiller. The tiller design works well when I am steering by hand or when either my main sheet or jib sheet self-steering gears are steering the boat. I have the self-steering gears engaged most of the time that I am sailing. The boat will steer a steady course in relation to the wind for miles and miles. I only use the motor to get in and out of the harbor and of course at times when there is no wind....unless of course I am rowing the boat.

[ebb]

Scott, just meant the aft leaning rudder shaft if lengthened
would at some point run into trouble from the very aft hinged
tiller. Depending on what kind of OB we have clamped to the
riser right there at the opening to the lazaret. I'm not
advocating anything -- and on the Ariel in my life, I wouldn't
dare alter the rudder-tube that the rudder shaft extends
from on the cockpitsole. The OA lengths of our rudders is
entirely dependent on where the keyslot is cut and where it
terminates.

What's most important is that Augustine is still sailing. That
is absolutely marvelous.

And merely off the top of my baldinghead, because I do
remember you're explaining the sailing gear to us, but for my
failing eyes the accompanying photos were too small. Don't
know whether I'll ever have the boat balanced correctly,
because of my whimsical changes to the boat.

Another subject, better stop before I get a warning from
the Admiral.
Be perfect to have a video here of your method.
In the correct cubbyhole of course.

[Scott Galloway]

Ebb,

Actually I did make some videos of my self steering system, which feature studio narration and background music, I cannot post those on-line for various reasons. I have used two of them in some for the classes that I teach. I could potentially share one or more of those videos with you in a Zoom session.

However I built a web page devoted to the subject. The URL for that page is: http://www.solopublications.com/sailariq.htm
The photos are small to preserve band width, but the narrative explains how to build such a system. If you would like, I can send larger versions of some of the photos to you by e-mail.

Back to rudders, I understand your point. I merely wished to say thatI have not felt a need to alter the original location and/or design of tiller.

My motor is clamped on the riser (motor mount) in the lazarette, but the handle does not protrude forward through the small front hatch aft of the tiller post. By the way, I installed a permanent louvered vent in that hatch to promote air flow in the engine compartment. You can see the bottom edge of that vent in the photo that I posted earlier on this thread. Instead, the motor handle protrudes upward and slightly forward of the large to lazarette hatch. It does not interfere with the traveler or with the tiller in that position. If I choose to do so, I can close the hatch to rest open the end of the motor handle, but I usually don't. Of course I cannot close the hatch fully with the motor running. After I shut the motor down, I just fold the handle back and then close the hatch.

[Bill]

Outboard related post moved to outboard thread. It's there, but it's not showing in the thread heading for some reason.

[Hull376]

I'm making a replacement 3 plank rudder similar to the one on the boat right now (6" w 4/4 Honduran Mahogany). I've been practicing the construction using pine and a cool used ancient Dowl-It jig I found cheap on Ebay compared to the new ones (lots of bad copies being sold that don't work as advertised. Looks like a company bought Dowel-It, stopped making the old model which has been around since 1940s, and is now charging way more for newer models probably made in China instead of Michigan, and reviews of copies complain they don't center properly, cheaper parts, poor machining of parts) Thinking about 3/8 silicon bronze rod x 16 tapped, mated to 5/8" deep machined holes into the 1" rudder shaft (new straight shaft for my outboard model, and bolts with nuts extending well into board 2 from board 1 next to the shaft. Drifts will connect trailing board 3 to board 2. Drifts at opposing angles to prevent board 3 from loosening up from 2, except for small gaps due to wet/dry cycle) Lots of great info on wooden boat forum on how to do drifts the right way. Anyway, I have two construction questions:

1. This will be traditional construction. Mahogany + silicon bronze fasteners. No glue, no 3M stuff, nothing rolled on, painted on (except bottom paint), or squeezed on. Current rudder is 50 years+ old, and that's how its built. But to drill the longish holes for the fasteners, I still need to hold the planks together. Could use external straps screwed at the joints before drilling. Could use interior wood glue that would "dissolve" when immersed in the water. I want something that keeps everything in alignment during drilling, but want the planks to be able to move on the fasteners during wet/dry cycles, like my current rudder does. I thought of using clamps, but thy get in the way, won't work on the curved planks because I need to cut the wood to pattern to drill the opposed angle drift holes. What do you folks think about the two options I've come up with, or are there other options?

2. I'm worried about the alignment of the tapped machined holes on the shaft and my ability to get them aligned with holes drilled in the wood. I admit it: I have mediocre measuring and woodworking skills! If I'm off a smidge, it seems that I won't be able to slide the pieces together without introducing misalignment stress in the wood. So how to make sure that the pieces mate? With through holes in the shaft, I could always start the holes in the wood through the shaft, then finish with the Dowl-It on the rudder. But that kind of defeats the purpose of having "elegant". as ebb says, tapped holes only part way through the shaft, as Tim describes above. The other option I thought of would be to cut small threaded pieces of 3/8" rod, screw them into the tapped holes in the shaft, then align the rudder to the shaft and tap the shaft to leave some marks on the leading edge of the rudder. Am I over thinking this? I just don't want to find out that a hole isn't matched exactly to the shaft holes.

[Hull376]

Some pics of pine practice.

Makes a big difference in how you drill the holes. Wooden Boaters said to drill very slowly don’t use speed bits they wander off and make sure you don’t drill more than a few inches at a time without removing the wood chips. I tried drilling really fast just to see what happens and it doesn’t look very good! But going slowly removing the chips as they recommended gives you straight holes every time. They also recommend using a Dowling jig.

In the last photo the left two are drifts pounded into undersize holes and the right two are bolts. The holes are about 11 inches

[ebb]

Years ago I mailed to the Admiral what I thot is a simplified version
of making a full length, no prop cut-out, three-board rudder. It
used the rudder drawings in the Manual. Don't remember why it
wasn't useful. It used internal threaded rod tapped into the 1"
shaft stock. Plan could have been redrawn for a two-piece rudder
shaft.

Suggest using Honduras mahogany and Everdur, 655 bronze. Silicon
bronze is readily available, but, of course, we pay a premium price
for it. Original wood/bronze rudders lasted decades/years in and
out of the water, drying out, resoaking and working all that time.
I think using stainless in salt water is asking for trouble.

[Hull376]

Ebb, I’m building new 3 plank mahogany rudder similar to your old post. Will post pics eventually. But a question for you: what if anything to squirt in the tapped 3/8” x 5/8” holes in the silicon bronze Shaft when installing the threaded rods to allow them to be removed, but also to prevent them from backing out. Definitely not 5200! Pressure from tightening the nut on the outboard threaded end should prevent loosening, but as boards relax when drying on the hard takes off the stress on the shaft, they could loosen, but maybe not. Ive gotten input from the wooden boat forum on some aspects of my construction, but they don’t build rudders that connect to a shaft like ours. The designs seem to be mostly gudgeons and pintles.

[ebb]

Kent, have fun with the project.
Ultimate materials will be: All silicon bronze,
and Honduras Mahogany.
Since you are using s. bronze thruout, you won't
need to seal the holes. Apply a couple drops of
Blue 242 Loctite to the male threads.
If you are worried about water getting in, a wet
application on all the threads (but not the bottom
of the threaded rod) may make it difficult to
sheer the seal later.

Henkel has a Technical Data Sheet.
The product is made for disassembly..

[Hull376]

Thanks ebb. I use blue Locktite on my cycling shoes to keep the screws that mount the cleats from coming loose. Takes a bit of effort to remove them, but they do break free!

[ebb]

Kent, Thinking about how many threads you're going to get
in the blind 3/8" 5/8" deep threaded hole in the shaft. And
how many of them you will have that actually will be holding
the first two planks onto the shaft. Actually holding the
rudder together.. for all time. Daunting!

WHY NOT TO USE BLUE242
Your choices are 16 and 24 threads per inch taps. Even the
bottoming tap doesn't thread all the way to the bottom of
the hole. Let's say 1/2" max, with incompleat turns into the
curve of the 1" stock.

Maybe half inch will get you six full threads? Or 9-10 if you
make fine threads. I don't think any corrosion occurs in the
silicon to silicon connection. But the blade of the rudder
will cause some stress on the fastnings where they enter
the shaft.

Fine thread removes less metal than coarse from the 3/8"
diameter of the rod. You will be coving the edge of the
first plank where the wood meets metal. If you are
making the traditional 2 piece bent shaft model with the
opening for a propeller.. you have opportunity for even
less attachment of threaded rod to shaft.

You will be using nuts on the opposite side of the first
two planks of a three plank blade. I don't believe
H. Mahogany swells much when it gets wet. I somehow
believe the wood does not get very wet inside. the
cracks in a new rudder will for years be quite narrow
when the boat is regularly on the hard.
Of course I don't know this for a fact, just guessing.
But everyone agrees the rudder 'swells' up tight just as
regularly!

If you are imagining disassembling the rudder sometime
in the future, sliding a plank up 3 or four bolts will be
impossible, Sheering Blue242 bond using the nut end
will be just as impossible. I can not imagine the 3/8" rods
unscrewing themselves.
I'd more likely be using Tefgel or Lanocote to primarily
assemble the rods.. and drive them hard into the tapped hole,
down where the thread looses definition and the thread on
the rod deforms and hopefully creates a lock that way.

imco it is better to keep salt water out of the screw joint.
Ebb would probably use Tefgel -- slather the threads, but not
the bottom, so the rod goes in all the way.. whew!
__________________________________________________
Since I'm babbling here. and it's past 4am -- one last burble:
Why not get a toothpaste tube of 5200(!), 4200, Siklaflex
rubber and seal the wood cove to the bronze stock. This
may stop any drying out or swelling in this joint. And help
to keep the blade from moving at this juncture. Keep the
goop away from the rod joints. OR NOT ! !
You and I know It would be a big mistake to use rubber glue
between the planks..
Original bronze and H.Mahogany lasted fifty years hanging on
the end of a plastic boat. Very few were ever taken apart
for 'maintenance'. Attempting to seal/bond the wood to metal
joint, that IS the rudder, is futile.

[Hull376]

Ebb, I will go for 3/4” depth for machined holes. Probably have 8 good threads with 16 threaded bar. 24 threaded harder to find in silicon bronze 3/8”. I have 6 bolts, straight shaft (outboard) don’t think flex is going to be a problem. Some of the larger rudder designs may induce more stress at the shaft.

[CapnK]

Kent - I've just got to say "Goodonya" for undertaking such a project, and let you know I hope it comes out perfect. Salut! :)

Keep us posted, and like Frank always says "Mo' pics!" :)

[Hull376]

Thanks for the encouragement Kurt! I’m moving right along with this project and will post pictures when it’s about done. Not doing anything the next few days as this cold front is going to bring 15° or lower temperatures to Houston. Too busy bundling up the banana trees and palm trees right now! Say Bill, would you rather I posted the Rudder project on my boat page or put it here?

[Bill]

Your boat page would be more appropriate. Thanks

[Hull376]

Posted my mahogany rudder replacement in the Gallery: A—376 Afloat http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?609-A-376-Afloat/page3 It starts about halfway down the page.

[Bill]

THANKS for posting the link.

[Hull376]

Say ebb, the copper keeper strap is about 1” wide, I think, and you mentioned it’s doubled over 3 times? And what gauge (how thick) is the copper strap before doubling it over? By the way, my new mahogany rudder has darkened to a nice brown— I’ll name that color brown dog.....

[ebb]

Kent, Friendly name for a fine brownish!
noticed the 'discrepancy'. But when installing my cast bronze gudgeon,
remembered, and checked to see which side of the boat the rudder stock would drop.
On litlgull the rudder will only drop past the rudder shoe on the port side.
Don't think that ended up in the Manual, but it's good to know, and that's why we
don't have a bearing in the hole at the hull-end of the rudder tube like Triton's have.
Pearson just made the tube a little 'off'! And skipped having to remove the rudder
shoe to drop the blade, or have two sets of gudgeons, like the Triton's.

[ebb]

Post above just disappeared about 5" in the middle of post.
Just GONE.
I may come back. I may not.

LAST TRY. TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION

THE GUDGEON STRAP
I saw in this forum perhaps, was rather thin copper sheet
with both edges bent in flat with a center seam, can't recall, but wider than
an inch. This gave the strap a nice rounded pro look. With that in mind,
look on amazon for copper sheet. This came up:
2 Pcs 99.9%+ Pure Copper Sheet 6"x 6", 20 Gauge (0.81mm), Film
Attached (both sides protected). {China product} $14.99

Don't think strap gudgeon will be longer than 6"*. But pure copper may be too
soft. Working it (bending as I described) might stiffen it, and the 'layering'
will make it about 1/16". You could make a strap with 3 or 4 layers, bending
it over on itself. PURE copper, because additions like tin will stiffen it (becomes
bronze), and lead might leach.
*Better make a pattern first, at least 8 or 9" length may be needed.

This is just an idea. But I know you know what you are doing!! The strap has
to bend when you remove the rudder. But it's not under strain much when
you knock the rudder up when grounding. It's use is to aim the stock end
back into its recess. [May the old pagan water gods be kind!]

The rudder drops on my Ariel on the PORT side. You could make a fastening
reusable by tapping its hole for a machine screw, If the keel lay up is too fibrous,
Q-tip liquid epoxy into hole, let it set, and retap for coarse thread bronze
machine screw(s). (I'd go large like 1/4" - 5/16"..) Just an idea.
You are going to come back to it one day, and you should recognize by your
fastening (don't bottom paint over it) which side the strap unscrews. So that
it's always exactly where it should be when you button it back up later.


amazon: 18 Ga Copper Sheet Metal, 6"x 12" 24.99. Brand: Copper wire USA.
Material: Copper 110 (99.99% electrical grade, may have plastic film one side)

Online find: .basic copper. Use their friendly 'copper sheet thickness guide' to look
up the 20 gauge sheet, where they show a homemade sheet bender being used
to control the bend of this dead soft material. So don't get this 18Ga gauge copper.
[ 18 gauge is about 1/20" - 16 gauge is about 1/16" - either will be hard or
impossible to bend lengthwise]
It can't be bent. 20gauge is the limit, and they say it will be difficult.

Maybe you can use just an unfolded 18Ga strip? So, leave it for you to find a
larger or heavier sheet of electrical 99.99% pure copper. Maybe thinner gauge sheet
folded over on itself twice or three times (3 layers) is the answer. Just ideas..

99.99% will never harden or get brittle or corrode always pliable.

Bye now

[Hull376]

Thanks ebb. Sorry for the disappearing ink poltergeist. Good info and some ideas I can try out. I like the bolt idea, can’t say peining rod is something I have a craving for!

[Hull376]

Say ebb, sometime pretty soon on haul out I’m going to install the new rudder and shaft that I built earlier this year. I’m also going to replace my rudder shoe with a silicon bronze replica made by Frank Pomeranz back in 2004. I knew eventually I needed to put it on the boat. The original is pink, indicating dezincification. I know you replaced your shoe and I need your opinion on something related to the install. it seems to me that the shaft must fit perfectly into the shoe that is to say the angle has to be perfect in order to have the shaft pivot without binding at all on the rudder shoe. Did you block the new rudder shoe into position and then finagle the exact position with the shaft in the bearing? It seems to me that just installing the new shoe with the old “peen” holes through the keel may not position the new shoe exactly. Any other steps You might’ve taken to make sure the shoe and the shaft were in perfect alignment? Previously you mentioned that the rudder will probably drop to port and someone else posted that you need at least three cement blocks and a little bit more to be able to drop it out if it’s sitting on a concrete surface. I don’t want to tell the yard I need to jack hammer the concrete and then dig a hole! Ha ha!

Also, peening is not easy! How about 5/8 silicon bronze bolts! I have some and the slotted heads fit perfectly in the shoe predrilled holes which are countersunk. Having lock washer and nuts exposed on the opposite side may slow my boat speed by .0001 knots / hour, but if I leave two of the bolts protruding, ha haaa- I have an attachment point for the shoe zinc!

[ebb]

not finished extensive post completely erased

have in the paast found such but not this time

i'm pissed maybe later yo abswewr kent

[ebb]

SOME IDEAS ON MARRYING THE REPLICA RUDDERSHOE TO THE KEEL

Kent, You have a predrilled hole in the shaft 'landing' on the rudder shoe.
Normal to be a 3/4" by 3/4" deep hole, It shld be right angle to the flat.
Which is right angle to the slant of the keel. The end of the 1"D stock is
milled down to 3/4"D X 3/4" length. Snug fit, use TefGel when assembling
no gell on shaft bottom.

Notice you have very little frp material remaining in that stub that has to
support heavy rudder shoe and even heavier rudder, tillerhead and tiller.
Sounds like your replica won't slip over the stub and cozy against the ledge
from the old one. Get it snug and the shaft landing
is right angle to the cove in the keel..
Get a dead straight six foot 1" dowel (Constantines***)..
use it to make sure the dowel is evenly spaced down the full length of
keel's cove -- from the center of the rudder tube in the cockpit.
(***They only have 36", so you'll have to butt-join, it's only temporary.
Years ago their mahogany dowels were exact measure, 1" is 1" and
they were dead straight. Try finding that at your local bigbox. And yes,
I wld epoxy butt-join. Dowel gives a visual exactness to this measure.)

After much dry fitting, line the inside of the shoe with Seranwrap, fill all
holes dips on the stub with wet epoxy mixed with chopped strand**, and
using a carjack if appropriate seat the replica tight against the old ledge..
Thoroly wet the stub down with a bristle brush and plain 2-part, then
wipe it off, you can't get it dry, with a rag -- you want the structural filler to
stick to the repairs, but you want the epoxy-soak for bond. This soak is
done at the same time as the paste and assembly. Pour off a bit of 2-part
and quickly wet, jab with brush, dry with rag.. in 30 seconds, pretend
you're BobRoss making a cloud.
(Must use a polyethylene film. Seranwrap is really the best.)
.. .. ..
This thing with the jack: dry fit will have gone thru every step. you have
factored in a little wiggle room to get the fitting exactly where you want.
You want squeeze out, but you'll be able to fix things when you remove the
fitting -- use a non-glue bedding compound for final assembly. If you
have a close fit, consider TefGel, no rubber.
(**In cup mix 2-part laminating epoxy, add a modicum of 1/4-1/2" chopped
strand, mix well, then add the fumed-silica to make a paste. First wet the
frp stub with plain 2-part then wipe it off with a cotton rag -- this assures
you get a bond with the filler paste.)

[ One of the two things ebb did to help support the huge weight of the
rudder system (rudder shoe, 20lbs of rudder stock and lbs of rudder blade,
tillerhead, tiller, and hand on tiller)..
was to drive two long bronze lag screws up thru the bottom of the shoe into
what ever there is in that narrow part of the keel. Had barely enuf room to
drill the holes, there may be enuf meat for the hexheads* to pull themselves
in.] (Cld argue about this)

(*Hexhead lags, because if you ever have to remove the rudder shoe, you
merely grind the hexheads off! Have to live with the lumps on the very
bottom of the keel and remember the lags are there. Since the bolts
are never coming out --and you're not totally happy withwhat you found when
predrilling the holes, oversize the holes a bit, use a dowel stick with a rag
and wet the holes inside with runny epoxy as best you can -- make a bit of
paste, epoxy and fumed-silica, slather the threads of the lagscrews and
HAMMER THEM TIGHT UPTO THE RUDDER SHOE. Gets epoxy way up inside
in unknown territory, and the lags are captured forever. Crazy, but it worked
for me.)

The rudder shoe shld fit within the streamlining of the hull. The space-
finding dowel trick shld find the fore-n-aft of the shaft position. The vertical
position of the shaft 'landing' shld be exactly right angle to the shaft along
the cove in the keel. The cove shld be easy to prep and fair to the gelcoat.
Center the dowel in the rudder tube, it shld be centered at the landing.
Because Pearson had to do some finaggeling to allow the completed rudder
to pass the keel ('on the port side') when commissioning and off, there'll
be a mental bellcurve. One clue is to sight down the rudder tube to see
which sjde of the keel is commissioned! Tube may be crooked, but the
rudder (rudder-shaft) is absolutely straight.

Sorry, I don't know the measure of the dowel-shaft from the cove, my
rudder situation was very different from yours. The method suggested is
only an idea, opinion in modern parlance. But it is decided by the pre-
drilled hole for the shaft in the shoe landing. Have to get the right angles
correct or the 3/4-3/4 hole will become a problem. Dowel it!

Think the hardness of Si-bronze and 316 are close to equal. But drilling is
easier thru bronze.
Goes without saying: you have planned and predrilled the 'peening' holes
thru the sides of the bronze shoe. Locate where the vertical lag bolt holes
are going and drill them out too before assembly. Forget what we have
down there: 1 1/2" width of frp keel? Odd drilling holes under the keel,
the predrilled holes in the bronze will help keep the new longish bolts jn
the center of the narrow 2" wide keel.
Let's hope the replica is the marrying kind.


I'VE ADDED SOME MORE STUFF HERE.. BEST TO YOU, CAPTAIN KENT ! !

[Hull376]

Thanks ebb – – you always know what you are doing which is great for me because I usually don’t! I kind of expected I’d have to fair in some FRP to get the new shoe to fit properly into whatever is left at the bottom of the keel but the idea with the 1” dowel is fantastic and I would never have thought of it! Using a car jack to get all the stuff in the right position with all the weight is another great suggestion. Last time I used the car jack on the boat was when I strengthened the strong back and jacked it up to put the stainless steel bar in place.

[Hull376]

Ebb, thanks for the additional info you inserted in your initial reply above. You are a real reservoir of information on these antique plastic classics. The shoe I have should marry pretty well to the keel. Dimensionally, Fred Pomeranze did a great job making the mold back in 2004. I think several of us ordered them at the time. Here I am 17 years later finally slapping it on the boat!

Ebb, any thoughts why traffic on the site for new posts has fallen off? My theory is that we’ve covered just about every nook and cranny, bolt, mod, spar, through hole, etc and the internet visitors are just checking out the books from our library……

[Bill]

Traffic has fallen off for the past ten years. Many members have moved on and the new owners of their yachts have not seen fit to join the board. And, they can easily search everything by just using Google. Except for Ebb, most of our more prolific posters have left the scene. Unfortunately, they never let us know why . . .

[ebb]

This post might refer back to 487, and the subject has been written about
by ebb either here or in the gallery pages. That area, the HEEL of the KEEL
where the rudder shoe is dapped into the fiberglass is by design a problem.

There is a huge amount of weight and leverage concentrated here. No
amount of finesse seems to me to be possible to get an adequate lay-up
of polyester resin and matt-glass in this narrow, tight and difficult pocket.
This hull, needless to say the whole class of Ariel/Commander's, had to be
laminated as a single unit. It made the back third of the hull a challenge
do properly. Imagine how hard it would be if you had to lay-up the inside
of your garbage can with poly and matt, it'd be a mess.

When I finally got A338's ruddershoe off, found that the outer half, the end,
was broken chunks of plastic. No glass reinforcement, The shoe had been
held in place with a single pin (that had been crudely removed and replaced
with a small bolt that held a zinc against against the bronze shoe.. WHICH
WAS PITTED & CORRODED.
The boat had a homemade rectangularish rudder with a stainless shaft. Tried
to find out how stainless cld make bronze into an anode.. Did latter find a
more probable answer.
So, made an attempt to rebuild the naked end of the keel. There's little that
can be done. Here used the elegant cheat of using the ruddershoe to mold
the repair. Had to straighten the sides of the shoe that had been seriously
bent inward by later bolts used to keep the obviously slipping shoe in place.
There wasn't much the glass in my repair had to hold on to.

So, the long upward lag screws idea blinked ON. Desperation is a great
motivator. Hope it works this time, I've cheated alot. I wonder if The Pearson
Boys thought it through. Haven't added it up: there's an astonishing amount
of bronze weight concentrated on very end of our keel.

Imagine what it was like to lay-up the stern with the toxic fumes of MEK
and polyester resin kicking off.. they had to be inside the hull to work..
masks, fans, what did they have back then?
__________________________________________________ ________

Had a few conversations with Roger Winiarski, proprietor of BristolBronze.
He told me something I cldn't believe, but then whom else is as good as his
word? He said BristolBronze been Pearson's supplier of round bar and fittings.
OK, but then he said, the bronze was manganese bronze, a very strong alloy
that casts into the beautiful things like winches and other deck gear.
Like I say, Couldn't believe it..! He assured me it was so.

The rudder shaft in many saltwater A/C's gets corroded at the waterline inside
the rudder tube that passes thru the bustle. Well, Why?

ManganeseBronze (58%copper - 39%zinc - .8%manganese) is nothing more
than a high tensil BRASS. It has too much zinc in it for it to stay in alloy. In
salt water it turns into a battery and self destructs, corrodes. Copper alloys
are moderately resistant to dezincification at 15% zinc. SiliconBronze 96%copper,
2.5-6%silicon, plus a pinch of a bunch of other metals including manganese,
lead and zinc and will still be intact 1000 years in ocean water. No guarantee.

[Bisquit]

Course Correction
I decided to make a new rudder. The old rudder was perfectly fine however, the aperture was too small for the feathering prop I wanted to install. Also, I felt too much correction with the rudder was necessary in moderate to heavy air. I hate to mess with the original Alberg design. It is elegant and compliments the lines of the boat perfectly. However, I suspect my boat may have been delivered with a taller than standard rig. (Perhaps it was a Great Lakes – light air modification.) My P measurement is 1′ longer than than standard. Seat of the pants engineering led me to decide I needed to add 15% additional surface area on the trailing edge to help with the increased main sail area.

Initially I planned to open up the aperture and scarf some wood to the trailing edge but this started to look too hacked together.

10519
Abandoned Modification

Back to the drawing board. remove the original bronze shafts and build a new rudder. Luckily I happened across a 6/4 x 24″ mahogany board that would allow a one piece replacement. It is a testament to the quality of the bronze that Pearson used that, after almost 60 years, when I removed the nut access windows, the bronze tie rods unscrewed like they were assembles yesterday. Once removed, I used an induction heater to heat up the upper shaft and bend it back 30 degrees to allow for the larger aperture.

Next step is to make a template for the new rudder. I installed the new prop then made a Masonite blank and experimented with shapes that cleared the new prop, had the additional surface area, and looked like they belonged to this classic design.

10520

Once I decided on a shape I cut the plank to the new shape, ran the leading edge through a router with a 1″ rounding bit to accept the upper and lower shafts, drilled holes for the tie rods, then using a 1 1/2″ hole saw made windows for the new nuts.

10521

New rudder faired with nut windows filled.
Next step is to install, coat with epoxy barrier coat and bottom paint.



On the boat

10522


Barrier Coated with IP 2000 E

10523
Bottom Painted and ready to go