Fruits Of My Labor (A-113) [Archive] - Page 2 - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

ebb

07-22-2008, 06:30 PM

Er....
Tony, doesn't this picture right above us here (264)
show a bump-up sea hood almost like 338s? It's a hatch garage - correct?
Mine is also pretty tall and that aesthetic Nag became agitated. But I prevailed!
"Form follows function, you fool..." Stuff like that.
Which may be the reason you're cannibalizing yours?

Takes courage to do something over again. Because we were SO sure the first time....

What I've been mulling over though is to use the height of my hood, there is a good argument to convert the forward volume where the hatch doesn't go into a dorade - two 3" cowls positioned near the sides and a single 4"D opening below in the middle. Would guess drainage would be quite efficient with the opening vent on the very top of the coach roof crown.

Buried somewhere in my notes:
Positive it was a well established designer that came up with the formula and drawings for a dorade that DRAWS IN air - it had to do with cowl size, interior volume, where the baffles are and how restrictive, and the opening to the inside. Some dorades work too passively.
Access plates and the cowl are big expenses these days. One idea I like is to install access/mounting ring directly over the hole inside - so that the cowl can be moved there for straight through air.

Watch that jig-saw! Beautiful works there Tony ----- keep her going!!

Tony G

07-24-2008, 06:02 PM

Somewhere in the piles and piles of boat photos we have an older, beauitful, European built woodie that has a dorade box just like what you're talking about... I think it might have come from the Abeking & Rasmussen site. Anyway, I bought cowls with way too high of a profile. That RBV would act like a bat and send me slack-jawed into the briney to recover the shiney.

Lower profiled cowls would probably work right there and the inclusion of vent protectors might even work as a good attachment point for lines or organizers.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Instead of adding new posts to the thread I've just been using the edit feature to add new pics. Epoxied the new outer skin onto the dorade boxes this morning. Hopefully we will finish the inside layers tomorrow.

Tony G

08-04-2008, 11:35 AM

Well, too much job and not enough 'work' getting done. If you know what I mean;) The nice thing...on Sunday the temp was in the 80's and the humidity was in the 70's. Love that mix. Seriously.

Tony G

08-04-2008, 06:48 PM

Got a couple of hours of work done today. Uh-boat work that is, and only after meeting my obligations at the job that pays the bills.:o

Started laying the foundation for the garage. This includes pitched 'drains' that empty into the cockpit. Placement of sacrificial mmm, 'stuff' for the hood scuppers and shaping the wadda ya callit backwall...

Next we'll make a foam nose cone and add some sexy-smooth taper to the sides of the rails. Then out comes the grinder again. Yee-Haw!! After puttin a groove on the roof top we'll glue everything in place.

We ground a groove around the structure that has a 1/8" to 3/16" deep dish about 1 1/8" wide to accept the bulk of the tabbing. Outside of that groove there is a 1/16" deep by 1 1/8" wide area to take the top layer of cloth and fairing compound. These measurements, while not exact, are depths into the actual FRP not the paint or gel coat.

c_amos

08-04-2008, 07:47 PM

Looking really good Tony!

:D

Would love to have had those cowls in the Bahamas... not to mention the sea hood. Really wish we had one on one dark and stormy night anchored off of Little San Salvador.. (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php?topic=72.msg12634#msg12634)

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/HalfMoon%7E0.JPG

This was taken the next moring... we spent the day drying out all our cushions and bedding... everything onboard was so soaked it was like someone had turned on a fire hose below. All of the water had come in one place... the small gap under front of the sliding hatch.

Tony G

08-09-2008, 04:49 PM

Most of the last couple of days has been spent cleaning and painting the inside of lockers. Not much to look at there, just white bilgekote.

Started giving some more thought toward storage and workspace in the \-berth. Can't really call it a v-berth any more because we stole 1/3 of the space, mainly the port side for storage, there by changing the 'V' in v-berth to a '\':D

One noticable difference in her appearance is the addition of foam to the sea hood and rails. Hopefully we'll have everything covered with x-matt, 17oz. roving and 7 oz. fabric by mid week. I'd like to get started on the coamings before it starts getting cold:(. After all, cold weather is grinding season!!:D

Have no idea why some of these pics are so dark. Maybe Bill could come to Minnesota to do a photo shoot. His shots always seem to turn out flawless!

Tony G

08-26-2008, 07:31 PM

After the longest five days of my life waiting for more epoxy to show up we finally got the last two layers of fabric down on the seahood!

So all totaled we have two layers of 1/8" baltic birch, one 1/4" layer of closed cell foam, two layers of 8 oz.fabric, three layers of stitched matt, two layers of 17oz. roving and a cover of 6 oz. fabric. That may seem like a bit much but it may get stepped on accidentally and I wanted that styro nose solid.

Now, if I can just figure out how I want to mount the traveler we can get started on the cockpit coamings.

c_amos

08-26-2008, 09:52 PM

Looks top notch Tony... care to do it again on Faith? :D

I sure do like the traveler aft... especially for a cruising boat. Works well for going below, and the loose footed main seems to want end of boom sheeting IMHO.... but then there is a great big old thread on that IIRC... :p

Tony G

08-27-2008, 07:10 AM

Craig

I'd love to help with anything on Faith. I must have been dropped alot as a baby because I don't mind the itchy, I don't mind the cramped spaces checking something twenty times to see if it fits yet doesn't really bother me either. But, I really get annoyed when I epoxy my hair to the back of my head:mad:

End of boom sheeting really does seem like the logical answere precisly for the reasons you mention. Way, way back when Bill first shared his mainsheet set-up on 76 I ran out and bought one based on his unfettered praise. (going to copy his outhaul assembly too!)

My big hurdle now is wether to mount the traveler on the coaming, outside/behind the coaming or inside/forward of the coaming. On the coaming I would have to eliminate or reduce the amount of arc on top of the coaming that would mirror the lovely curve of our deck. Outside would be ok but then we have to add fairleads or tubes through the aft wrap of the coaming and move the traveler car control line camcleats to the inside of the coaming. Inside would be easiest for traveler operation and mainsheet set-up, however, I keep seeing some really tough angles and crevices to lay glass into.

For a while now each time I go up the ladder into the cockpit I look at that general area and no revelation yet.:confused: Anyone have an idea? A picture or two?

Tony G

08-28-2008, 05:40 PM

Found another candidate,(No, not one of those kind), and a Carl Alberg design to boot. What if the coaming wrapped around the lazarette hatch? Then the traveler could stay in the same spot, I could have my arc in the aft part of the coaming and maybe add one of those bimini tops that drop aftward! Ooo! 'just gave myself goosebumps!:p

I like the turning blocks. They would lend a kind lead to the winch if we're flying the MPG/Asym.

ebb

08-28-2008, 10:49 PM

Flying biminis on sailing condos seem to be the rage these days.
Sept/Oct '08 Good Old Bateau has a guy talking about his 39 footer with a split-level transom.
"Two practical uses for two stays aft"
Split or double stays can mount the radar on a cross tube.
And also if you have a detatch tube frame bimini you can anchor it between the two wires aft.

An interesting variation having a 'mid-boom' gallows is explained. It also anchors the forward end of the bimini. And the author mentions we builder types start from unassailable points of view planning and building and then have to make important changes after gaining experience sailing it.

It's hard to figure where the mainsheet leads are.
His furled mainsail in the lead photo is one of those that incorporates a fully deployed sunbrella cover along the boom when the sail is up.

The dodger like the bimini is an all tube, rag and isinglass affair. It all looks like it can be taken down and stored below in case of a hurricane.

commanderpete

08-29-2008, 08:28 AM

Hey Tony

Excellent work.

Sounds like you're planning a wraparound coaming. Would look nice, and provide more comfortable seating on top.

I cant see a good reason to have mid-boom sheeting if you have a boat where the boom reaches the end of the cockpit.

I would try to make the traveler as wide as possible. On many boats you only have about a foot of adjustment on either side--limiting the effectiveness of the traveler.

Here's what a few builders have done:

1st pic is a Schock Harbor 25

Next 2 pics are the Harbor 20

Then you have an Alerion Express 28 and 33

Tony G

08-29-2008, 03:23 PM

I hear what you're saying C-Pete. Used to "sail" on a C & C Mega 30 that had one of those 24" travelers right through the cockpit and of course at shin hieght. It was a bit of a challenge to move it to windward, or move it period, specially if the skipper thought he was Dennis Connor. Thinking back I'm amazed nobody lost a finger or more. Sometimes I wonder who was a bigger dolt, him for his actions or me for sticking it out.

I was hoping to use the full length of track which is four feet if memory serves me well. Of that length you lose 3-4 inches from both ends for car control blocks and cam cleats, but, that still leaves quite a bit of travel for a 26 foot boat with a 11(plus) foot boom. Between the halyard, cunningham, boom vang, out haul and traveler...oh yeah, mainsheet there should be enough sail shape control to pass the time getting from point A to point Z.

I did some rough drawing on one of the profile diagrams found in the Assoc. manual and a coaming that stretches all the way back and around the lazzarette hatch doesn't look bad at all to my eye. The lines coming off of the forward cabin 'shoot' back to a point just above the stern. This 3-day weekend will hopefully afford me enough time to pattern a full scale mock up of the perimeter dimensions. Then we can really see the difference between paper and plastic.:p

Have a good Labor Day all.

commanderpete

08-29-2008, 04:29 PM

I think ebb is incorporating the more ergonomic non-horizontal coamings.

There is probably an ideal % for the most comfortable recline

Hinckley DS42

ebb

08-29-2008, 05:09 PM

Ah wood luv to circumslide mah butt around that teak rail from pote to stahbrid... one cool and dewy mornin.:cool:

The more I've dwelled on what to keep and what to change, the more I feel our straight coamings are salient features that can't be messed with without a fight.
Straight sheer, straight brown "take off" coaming lines. Straight boot stripe, straight loose foot boom. All play in the sweetness of the Alberg design.

It's getting harder for me to mess with the guy's harmony. I've come to realize that a stripped down virgin Commander with those tall mahogany coamings is unparalled.
There isn't a mo'bucks Hesperian with a hot-tub cockpit can touch that rare and timeless style!

Tony G

10-25-2008, 12:02 PM

Geez! Something as simple as making a form for these coamings is surprisingly difficult! I can't find a line that goes behind the lazzarette hatch that looks smooth. Trying to mimic a CD36 coaming just doesn't fit on our deck (go figure!). The CD 330 and 36 have much wider decks back by the cocokpit and accomodate the wide sweep of the coaming right around and behind. Ours are a bit too...pinched? If you bring the aft portion of the coaming right through the middle of the lazzarette hatch, however, it looks pretty good. Sooo, the new thought is incorporating the aft section right into the lazzarette hatch... Then I thought, do I want a smaller hatch in the lazarette hatch or should I split it down the center line making it a left or right or both type of hatch? This is starting to seem like a lot of work just to reduce maintenance. Especially when you consider I'm adding mahogany toerails and rubrails.

ebb

10-25-2008, 04:00 PM

Tony,
It sounds like you are serious about a fiberglass coaming?
Just surfed by an aluminum Dudley Dix in the making. The angle of coachroof sides is carried aft in a clean sweep to a 2 step transom. That angle visually becomes a very important part of his design - like a facet of a crystal.
The Dix is wide enough so that the cockpit coaming does not have to bump out like ours has to.
Still, a hollow coaming on the Ariel could be made using the seat-back and the coach-roof ANGLES with a nice sculpted curve out from the coach corner. Have to sacrifice some sidedeck to take the wide footprint of this style of coaming.

(Maybe worth a mock up. I'm using office supply illustration board. It's about 1/16" cardboard, stiff, excellent for nice long curves. But also if its sponged with warm water and bent over a form, it'll dry into a more radical curve. And you can almost get a form to use as a mold if you double up and Titebond bent cardboard forms together to get nearly 1/8" thickness.)

It might be possible to get a 3" or 4" top flat across the angled panels that could be capped with wider mahogany for sheet winches and for sitting on occasionally. In CPete's post #276, the 'Nahma' illustrates what I'm trying to say. The sweep out from the coach-roof corners.... the coaming is obviously hollow and is capped. On the Ariel, to get some back support, the coamings would have to be taller and therefor the footprint wider, robbing the sidedeck. Anyway I think the angles are important to have it look like Alberg (or Dix) had a hand in it!

Fiberglass.
I would lay it up over a male foam (or press-board, or cardboard) mold because there are fewer steps that way - tho the finish is harder to get than if you did it in a female mold (which imco is even more of a pita).
OR... maybe a veneer of mahogany could be glued on both inside and outside to finish. With a nice cap nobody would know. And areas of the hollow inside could be useful for storage if you dared cut holes in the coaming/seat back. Eh! Hell, whynot?

Really don't have to go with the curves that fiberglass skin can do. All round single plank coamings with cockpit corners cut from laminated blocks can make bodacious curves too. They be 'posts' front and back like the ones against the coach. You do see coamings sometimes where the posts have been bandsawed with an inside curve too.

Whatever we do with fiberglass is going to end up heavy. 1/8" to 3/16" frp in a hollow coaming of any height is a lot of square feet. The ole Mahogany coaming is relatively lite. But if you want a three D coaming that is hollow inside why not Dudley Dix and use aluminum sheet??? It'll paint up like the rest of the Ariel - and be even less weighty.

:cool:What would we do without CommandoPete's always right-on pictures? Eh!
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________
H m m m m....
How crazy do you want to imagine?
If you have an inside diesel planned, that may mean you don't need the lazarette in its present form. So, Imagine the cockpit seats going across the back BEHIND THE TILLER. It could be a lot like one of the two boats in your post 271. Then you might mold in those nice radiused corners you like so much:D.
'Course then you end up with a similar problem to mine: where does your mainsheet traveler go??? (My answer is: to hell with the traveler! and go back to the double deck blocks the Ariel originally had...)

You'd have a longer cockpit apparent. You'd even have storage in the thwart seat locker for an anchor and a bunch of other stuff!

And all the Commanders in the fleet would finally have Ariel envy!!!

Tony G

10-26-2008, 12:37 PM

We are trying ever so hard to incorporate angles, curves and lines allready present in Dream Weaver's original design as to keep the remod as remeinescent of Alberg as possible. Hopefully in the end we will not only benefit from the well founded design of a great naval architect but also have a boat that doesn't look too ugly because of all the changes.

The current idea is a coaming that provides good support for the back, has additional storage available for lines and such and can hold a butt cheek or two. There are a couple of designs out there I gravitate back to-Cape dorys, the newer Hinckleys, Alereons, Cabo Ricos, Great Dane-you get the picture. The hitch is the 'hatch'. The best looking spot for the aft wrap appears to be athwartship midway through the lazarette hatch. So I'm thinkin new hatch that is even with the top of the traveler track on the inside of the coaming aft and deck level outside of the caoming. That way when on the hook one could slide the boom and traveler over to one side and cozy up in a nice curved aft corner.

Also been giving serious thought to splitting the hatch into two just to the side of the centerline, incorporate some overlaps for strength and added seal surface. That way one could get in the lazarette without having to open the entire area. Its starting to get more complex than I'm looking for though. We are getting snow today so I'll have plenty of time to think about this one:(

mbd

10-26-2008, 08:09 PM

Tony, with all that business going on in the aft of your cockpit, maybe you should reconsider mid-boom sheeting and move the traveler to the coach roof and away from the bottoms trying to find a cozy spot? It might make getting at your engine a bit easier too.

Also, I think Admin Bill should give you a demerit for mentioning that 4-letter s-word. :mad:

ebb

10-27-2008, 09:07 AM

If you are going to cruise the Ariel, you'll probably raise the boom so you can move freely in the cockpit without loosing your head.

Midboom on the Ariel is exactly over the bridgedeck. If you are going to dodger it, you will probably make that tall enough to get in and out without fuss.

Instead of putting the traveler way forward over the hatch where the forces are probably tripled to control the boom, I think the traveler could be designed to go over the cockpit end of the dodger. In such a way that fingers are protected. A hard dodger can be designed to help take the forces of a traveler. The block spread on the boom would be further aft, easier to haul, and probably have shorter tails. The almost flat top dodger design that Tony has designed would be PERFECT!

You may still have to have a new boom made, especially if a rigid vang is rigged along with the extra blocks. Traveler lines would probably stay at the forward end of the cockpit rather than draped over the tiller and tangled under foot like most have.

An independent arch for the traveler over the dodger could also be used for the forward end to fly a bimini or rig a snug tent.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
When I asked Sponberg (Yacht Design Inc.) what he would do about headroom in L.G.'s cockpit, he simply raised the end of the boom leaving the gooseneck in its original position on the mast! That's how it's gonna be on Little Gull.

mbd

10-27-2008, 09:47 AM

...he raised the end of the boom leaving the gooseneck in its original position on the mast. That's how it's gonna be on Little Gull.
Why? To retain more sail area by keeping the forward end low? Is that a better shape for a loose footed main? Inquiring minds would like to know. :rolleyes:

The hard dodger location seems like a winner, or, probably been mentioned somewhere here, how about incorporating a traveler and a boom crutch?

ebb

10-27-2008, 10:17 AM

Mike,
I don't really know.
It's a pretty small main.

Also at the same time I asked him to do the geometrics and areas on flying jibs on a three foot bowsprit. That lowers the original stay on the stem to a baby stay position on the mast and moves centers of efforts around.

If you are interested in seeing the Ariel-as-a-cutter math I'll make a copy and send it to you. The sail plan retains Alberg's original circle-and-crosses.

Maybe you can make sense of it from a sailor's point of view.

I would really like to see it CRITQUED.
(I don't mean necessarily by you unless you want to of course - but by ED or Craig, say, who look at sails a lot.)

mbd

10-27-2008, 10:46 AM

If it's not too much trouble, Ebb, please do. I'm certainly no sail maker or yacht designer, but I'd love to see it. I really like the idea of a cutter rig. Seems like it would make sense for you long-term cruisers, too. You could fly 2 head sails on your downwind legs. (I like the idea of an eventual double headstay for my coastal cruising ambitions too. Or really, a roller furler and an inner stay just aft of the original position that could fly another head sail or a storm jib if needed.)

It seems like you'd need a mizzen to balance a 3-foot bowsprit. But what would be really cool is your 3-foot bowsprit cutter with a mizzen mast to balance it out. Not sure what that would be called - a cutter-rigged yawl? Or, how about increasing the size of the main to balance the bow sprit and make a gaff rigged cutter?? That'd be soooo cool.

(Oops! Sorry Tony - back to our regularly scheduled thread.)

ebb

10-27-2008, 12:07 PM

Don't recall if Mike Goodwin rigged his Ariel as a yawl before he sold her. There was talk and photos here on the Forum.

There would have to be a boomkin added to the stern. But the idea is intriguing. Being able to tune the rig with smaller sails is good for a cruiser. And in light winds having even more wings and balance would make it that much more fun.

There's a cost in adding weight to the ends of an Ariel. I've got a beautiful pipe bowsprit ready to be fitted to the fordeck.... but I wonder sometimes if it can be made lighter as a single spruce spar.

Tony, like Mike I apologize for the sidebar!:o

ebb

11-04-2008, 12:42 PM

Tony, Mike,
I didn't respond completely to Mike's remark in post 285 where he says that perhaps the dodger top that extends over the companionway into the cockpit
can be designed to have three major functions?

It can be a place for the traveler.
Tony's original proposal for his dodger which is wide across the top would be ideal for a wide versatile traveler.
Boom gallows support
could be built in there also.. While not ideal, the boom could be immobilized well enough for a storm sail to be rigged. Perhaps with a temporary crutch added at the cockpit end.
And of course the bimini

Finding the ideal point over the cockpit to terminate the dodger, making it tall enough to make it easy to get in and out below, yet aesthetically pleasing and comfortable to sit under... is the challenge.
Having a traveler there will mean the dodger edge has to be designed as an arch to take the loads the mainsheet will put on it. The dodger will be structural, not a casual addition.

But it does seem like a natural.
Maybe the only real problem is going forward with the main sheets at that elevation over the side deck. It's am arguement to keep the sheets at the aft end of the cockpit.

I'm wide open to your ideas and solutions. Our dodgers are definitely part of the solution. May be it IS the solution. I'll be watching....and hoping...
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
By the by - You can't have midboom sheeting if you have a loosefoot main.

Tony G

11-04-2008, 04:47 PM

MG did not get around to rigging a mizzen on his old Ariel. Initially I thought that would be a great addition to the sailing arsenal. That highly coveted mizzen spinaker you know. But once you tack on a grill, some adjustable solar panels, boarding ladder, rod holder, parasail platform(?), well, there just wasn't enough room! A removable inner stay and a short bowsprit for the MPG would probably be complimented by a mizzen for balance. But I'd hurt myself with all those lines and stays!!

Dodger topics never get old and go away. I personally would over build a dodger/gallows/traveller arch to the extent that if Dream Weaver rolled she'd stay bottoms up! I lack the engineering skills that others here possess. Seriously, because of the cost of a new boom and the fact I live in the middle of the country far, far away from any reputable, economically feasable mfg/shipper plus we already own a brand new Hood loose footed main, our traveller will stay in the aft end of the cockpit. If the whole coaming 'thing' comes off like I envision, having the traveller there really shouldn't be a problem. Think the dodger will come from a Steve Marshall concept with the lines a little closer to a tube framed traditional. UNLESS! Someone can post a picture of a really sharp looking hard dodger on the dodger thread [hint hint]. It aint over yet!

mbd

11-04-2008, 08:15 PM

Sorry, no hard dodger pics. I'm still stuck on the boom crutch/traveler/wrap around coaming. Maybe these pics are useful for some ideas? (I love catboats.)

You're on to something here Tony!

A Com-Pac sun cat, a 23' Menger Catboat, then a 22' Marshall Catboat...

Tony G

12-20-2008, 02:14 PM

They say we dodged the bullet this weekend. Meaning we only got 4-7" of snow, minor blowing and windchill temps around -40F:eek: It gets worse!?!

Nothing like winter weather to get me thinking boats and such. Back to this cockpit grind that I just can't get over...

IF 26
Hey, who is that handsome devil?

mbowman

02-03-2009, 09:32 PM

Hey Tony, I'm about to tackle my rotten sole on my Ariel. I've been checking out your great progress. What type of wood did you use on your sole, braces, etc. I like the way you braced up under the sole.

mike

Tony G

02-04-2009, 08:03 AM

Mike,

The braces were made of white oak and the decking for the sole is 3/4" baltic birch. In hind site, 1/2" baltic birch would have been more than adequate considering there is still a 3/16" solid lay up to go on top of the sole for a finished surface. The braces were attached to the hull with 3M 5200 and the sub-sole(?) was attached to the braces with the same. Of course the whole thing gets tabbed in on the top surface. Everything got two to three coats of epoxy depending on where it resides. Thanks for the kind words and if you have any questions feel free to pm me.

P.s. Man, am I chomping at the bit to get started again!!!
.................................................. ..........................................
If you can access Good Old Boat Sep/Oct or Jul/Aug there is an article that I stole the support idea from...

mbowman

02-05-2009, 09:29 AM

Thanks Tony, I'll be letting you know how the progress is going!

Tony G

03-05-2009, 10:32 AM

Just when I thought I'd focus on more 'important' jobs or bigger aspects of this get-to-sea project I ran across this while perusing some of my usual boat-porn sites. Now I'm all hot and bothered to make new moulds and cut more holes in Dream Weaver. Sure hope the economy bottoms out/levels out starts doing something so I can sell some parts, buy some other parts, and get this show in the road!!!

Lucky Dawg

03-05-2009, 11:40 AM

HA! "boat-porn"

I can relate. I think there's treatment out there for this addiction.

Tony G

03-05-2009, 01:52 PM

I don't understand, Kyle. You say that like it's a bad thing.:confused:

Tony G

03-11-2009, 07:55 AM

This is way out of sequence but I ran across this pic that brought me back...This was taken by my dad the morning we picked-up the little gal. Ahh the fond memories.

Tim D.

03-11-2009, 10:28 AM

A gem in any form Tony :)

Tony G

06-26-2009, 10:46 AM

Well, it's not that I'm afraid of commitment. More afraid of being committed!

It took forever to find the line we were looking for. This is what I've come up with so far. I took as much as I could from the Cape Dory 36 because it has that strong Alberg influence or characteristics. But, being our cabin is shaped considerably different from the CD 36 it wasn't a straight transfer from the specs. My first strike was more in line with the coamings of a Shannon 28. Nice but not what I really was looking for.

There is an aft section still waiting to be built and shaped that the traveler is incorporated into. That section will be much easier to layout. WOW! Nothing is symetrical on this boat. Six different stations for each coaming, not a single angle duplicated! I thought it would be easy to 'throw' a couple of coamings on her.:o

ebb

06-26-2009, 11:47 AM

N I Z E
curves!
That'll be gorgeous.

Fibberglass with mahogany top???

Tony G

06-26-2009, 12:20 PM

Thanks, Ebb.

I'm leaning toward glass with wood caps from the winches forward. That would give me a chance to use some of the original coamings. Probably insert some ash strips for a designated 'step here' spot. insides of the cockpit kept smooth fiberglass with trim around the cut-out for the storage cubby under the winches. Thanks for reminding me that I need to order the turning blocks which will get their own mounting pad like shown in the following photo...thusly:D

Tony G

07-24-2009, 09:40 PM

Finally got some real time in working on the girl again. Got some matt and fabric in the winch cubbies and in the turning block cubbies. Drilled holes for the drains that tie into the locker lid scuppers. Shaped the styro corners, although far from final, and got the outer skins on and the traveler mount glued in. Now some serious shaping, serious grinding and serious glassing and fairing. Seriously...

ebb

07-26-2009, 08:23 AM

Tony, I really love those coamings!
Your modeling is to my eye very pro (as in profound:cool:) - from the eye-pleasing fronts to curvaceous back. For instance: adding a bit more arch to the traveler 'coaming' across the back is masterful. Really.

Ability to find a higher place to sit in the cockpit area is an important safety concern. Especially if the perch is comfortable.

You'll remember Zoltan saying, when asked about his huge cockpit on the Commander, that it wasn't a concern for him because as much green water that came aboard in rough weather got tossed right back out of the cockpit.

Have a similar problem with getting rid of green water with my remodel in the back of the cockpit on A338. We have to find a way to get water out quickly, VERY QUICKLY, when the water gets higher than the companionway threshold.

I'm not sure that an OB Ariel can depend on the OB well as an ultimate scupper. It certainly is that. But as Zoltan implies: as much water enters the cockpit as exits. It is, however, those split seconds when inundated that the water getting out might also be getting below. And there are I-don't-know-how-many-stories of water getting in to the cabin. Who's to say that in the excitement the drop boards aren't also going overboard.....?

My mahogany extra-tall coamings got screwed up when being surfaced by me. Asleep at the sander was I. So I am thinking of blatantly copying those marvelous coamings of yours.
BUT the way I go I'd get totally focused on the problem of fabricating fiberglass moldings and it would take me another forever to come up with something at least comparable to yours! There are a lot of good curves that could indicate a relatively light molding. But then there's the wood on top and the bracing for the winches....etc...etc.

Regular coamings that extend above the companionway, on other boats I've seen opening scuppers worked in. Deck level scuppers that only open with pressure from the cockpit side. Not at all sure if they would have enough volume capability. Or if they are really efficient?

Water weight and height in the cockpit has to be GONE immediately.
There's some math to figure the volume of weight a cockpit contains, it's huge. Enough probably to cause some strange and dangerous trim problems - when too many problems are coming down.

Anyway, just tossing this in to boost your paranoia tolerance:eek:
Looking good!

kendall

07-26-2009, 08:48 AM

I think that with a little thought one could design a drop in hatch cover ( for the engine well front opening) with some one pretty large one-way valves that would allow water to drain from the cockpit into the well and out while keeping water out.

A nice looking teak or mahogany cover with horizontal slots cut in, and rubber strips over the slots fastened top and sides on the back would be a good flapper valve. Wouldn't be a perfect seal but the rubber would flex to let water drain out while keeping most water from coming in.

Top-hinged wooden flaps with light elastic to keep them closed could allow for larger openings with better sealing.

Ken.

ebb

07-27-2009, 07:08 AM

Hope you don't mind, Tony....
Kendal, yeah, I've seen wood coamings cut for swingout scuppers. Made from the coaming material, the sides were cut on a bevel so that they couldn't swing in. In a normal coaming you can't have many of them in that style. But if done well they would look the best of all alternatives.
We A/C's sail on our ear at times with the rail in the water. Hinged scuppers would open up by their own weight and would scoop water. A hazard. Resistance to opening with a spring or something imco would be difficult to make work.

Attwood and Seachoice make ring scuppers with rubber flappers. OK in a bassboat transom. More interesting are the floating ball valves where returning water pushes a floating ball against the scupper opening. Deck drains and maybe transoms. Looks like there is nothing off the shelf.

It just flashed that if Tony has a concern about water being contained over deck level he could DORADE those boxed coamings. He'd loose some cockpit storage, I think, in the coaming interiors
BUT if said interior was set up like an ondeck Dorade vent box they could be made open to drain and still (unless totally inudated) easily let water out and discourage water in without any flapper or ball gizmos. The width of the coamings allows designing baffles in the drainage channels that could keep water from re-entering. I'm guessing ofcourse.

With molded coamings exits could be bigger and useful. Imagine that they need not be very tall off the deck, maybe an inch or two. But would be some inches long for volume. And more numerous. Imagine a double 'floor' in the coaming box: deck level drain system, upper level storage.
Hinged lids might yet be called for, because water could enter back into the cockpit thru the scuppers from the up side when the boat is tilted.

When the cockpit is filling with big greenies, remove the seatback cushions (if they're not overboard already.)

mbd

07-28-2009, 11:06 AM

Tony,

Those coamings look fantastic! You've got the curves just right. A-113 is going to look stout AND shapely. I love that last shot. You can really see how the coamings follow the curve of the deck, no accident, I'm sure. ;)

PS. Keep the pics coming!!

ebb

07-30-2009, 03:11 PM

Tony,
Is there any rule for the angle of line to the sheet winch?

Some coamings are slanted at a rediculous and unattractive angle.
While other winches seem to sit square and upright..
We've even seen sheet winches horizontal off the coamings - instead of vertical.

If a wedge is used under the winch on flat coamings, there has to be a companion wedge underneath somewhere so that fastenings are square. Complications getting that right.

The line has to want to winde UP on the drum in an orderly fashion, correct?

When I was crewing on Bill's boat there was a cleat thingy on the winches. I never thrusted the convenience thinking a digit could get caught in the jamming process. I imagine a separate jamcleat (like I've often seen) that a singlehander could whip the sheet around and get tight without having to actually touch the winch. With the exception of the winch handle.
Seen winches with a flying camcleat coming out of the base.
How you gonna do it?

Any tips to getting the lead perfect?

Tony G

07-31-2009, 07:36 AM

Ebb, I purposely keep the word perfect out of my vocabulary. Was it CPete that said perfection is the enemy of progress?

The winches I have call for an ideal line angle of 3-8 degrees to prevent overriding. The science used here was plopping a winch on the coaming along with the turning block in their designated spots. Then I ran some 3/8" line through turning block wrapped the winch and worked backwards to the height of the lead blocks on tracks. That was, of course, for the large percentage head sails. For the smaller head sail we skipped the turning block and moved the lead block forward. I putzed with it for half a day so I hope I got it right. If not, who the #&!! cares we can work with it, let's git 'er wet!

As far as winch placement I figured we'd need a 1/2" pad under the winch and a 1/4" one below the turning block to give a fair lead to the sheets. I have seen some horizontally mounted winches too and it screwed me up! I'm still not the same!:eek:

Cool temps and low humidity inspired me to cash in one of my vacation days and break out the grinder. Nothing makes me feel like we're getting something done like a bad itch!

Tony G

08-10-2009, 07:44 AM

Just some more photos of the same old boring stuff... Finally decided how to handle the 'space' below the traveler. The fiberglass skin will hopefully act as, or should I say form a strut to spread the stress over a greater area. That's how I see it happening anyway.

Once we get the coamings encased we will start on the cockpit storage in the forward end of the footwell. That'll be interesting. Gotta work backwards from the seacocks to the scuppers in order to find some hoses that will work. Currently I'm thinking of using radiator hoses like Tim L. did on Glissando and making my own scupper drains. Those manufactured drains are outrageously expensive!:eek:

The last two photos are of the final layer of glass to go on the coamings. I know, I know, not too exciting. It's worse to think it is about the only thing I've accomplished on the boat this summer.

Next up-a hole...

Commander227

08-10-2009, 06:22 PM

Tony,
Really looking good!!! I always say a good home addition is one in which you can't tell has been added on. It should look like a part of the original design. You've made the new coamings look as though the boat was intended to wear them. Are they higher than the original wood coamings? What are your plans for this fwd cockpit storage locker? I must say I'm a little nervous about that.
Mike
C227

Tony G

08-12-2009, 08:05 AM

Thanks, Mike. They are roughly 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch taller at the forward end and around 3 inches taller at the aft. They seem bigger though. I'm starting to like them more and more the closer they get to being finished. But it has been sooo long since we've had coamings on the boat that 'comfort factor' may be more perceived than actual.

Sheesh! I'm already leary about cutting a big hole in the cockpit, how about givin a brother a little love!:eek: I'm planning on making some scuppers like the ones you'd find under the factory locker lids. Got a 'water proof', heavy duty latch to keep the lid on things. The bottom portion will be an integral water tank much smaller than the 40 gallon version I originally thought about adding. Above that a 'dry' storage area. The locker portion will extend aft from the bridge deck around 18-20 inches and come up to just below the factory locker lids. Seems like a nice spot for some teak decking. This part is all straight forward...it's the scuppers in the footwell that are adding a dash of frustration to the mix.

*************************************wait a minute***************************************
Nope. Changed my mind. The locker will only extend back 16 1/2 inches and will be flush with the cockpit seats. Still adds plenty of storage and the lower water tank will be sufficiently large for a second tank. The site gauge and plumbing will be accessable through the wet locker under the companionway. The original cockpit scuppers can be cut out and transferred to their new location. This design get a 99% confidence rating from me, this morning.

Tony G

09-02-2009, 07:27 PM

Well, my buddy wanted his hammer back so I figured we better get some wood working done. Same as always, start getting nervous, then shaking, worried about screwing something up. Or cutting off a finger...

It's the last teak the hardwood supplier around town will bring in. Then I mixed in some of the old Ensign's cockpit parts for luck. Luck, ha! I couldn't afford to buy any more teak if I wanted to. I always liked the look of the Cabo Rico interiors and their doors look strong and dummy resistant. That's exactly what I need!

Of course these are pictures of a bunch of pieces just lying there. But you get the idea. Making one board many pieces is the easy part. Making many pieces one.......

ebb

09-03-2009, 06:07 AM

First class joinery there Tony!
Want to see the set mounted IN the boat.....

Tony G

09-05-2009, 07:07 AM

There you go, sir! Done with tape, but, mounted none the less.;)

Tony G

09-19-2009, 08:00 AM

This one might require a bit of a stretch on imagination, but, I found this pic that kinda, in way, if look past all the other stuff shows about what the cockpit locker I've been babbling about adding would look like insitu. The towel even has lines in it that mimic(in my mind)teak decking.

Ok, maybe I should lay off the Gosling's and get back to work...

Tony G

09-19-2009, 08:14 AM

We've decided to ditch the hard dodger and go with a canvas drop-top style jobbie like the folks at Gemini canvas make(www.geminicanvas.com). That will reduce some of the weight and be much more flexible as far as going below and going forward. I want to add a bimini too so being able to drop the dodger if not needed to increase airflow seems like a plus.

It started to look like things were progressing way too fast here, so these ought to add a few more weeks (read months) to the 'project'.

The first shot is the basic layout just trying to get a feel for room requirments and if everything will fit in. The second shot is a wire chase that run wires up to the compass or display heads whichever route I decide to take. Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's not AYBC (or is it ABYC?) approved, but it was late and the hardware stores were closed. I would have much rather used flexible conduit and I might change it before the cap goes on.

c_amos

09-19-2009, 09:44 AM

Absolutely amazing Tony!

I LOVE the lines, and the way they complement the combings... which look like the curves Carl drew there...

The drain tube integrated into the dodger combing is a great idea.... it looks like you plumbed it into the recessed area where the standard nav lights sat. Good thinking... I imagine the tubes run down through the old wire chase that is molded into the cabin liner.

Lucky is the dodger that will sit on such a base... tough propisition for one on the 'stock' Ariel cabin top. I used a sail batten sewn into the hem with hold downs on either end. Works ok, but nothing like it would with that set up....

WRT your cockpit locker. My recommendation is that you mock it up and go sailing with it before you commit to it. I know Atom has fuel cans there, and James certainly has spent many moons in his cockpit... but that is a Triton. The corner of that locker is the natural helms man position (IMHO) and I would not be willing to give up room right there for anything but my legs. Just one guys opinion... worth exactly what you paid for it. :D

Commander227

09-19-2009, 04:53 PM

Tony...you got it go'in on!

ebb

09-21-2009, 06:46 AM

Tonio, you got harmony going on there with those fairwaters.

Elegant curves. Fine and fit.
It looks like you're having fun with the ole girl.

Can't wait to see what she looks like with her hat on!:cool:

mbd

09-22-2009, 10:02 AM

Tony, those "fairwaters", as Ebb called them, are remarkable! Very graceful and "appropriate" for all the changes you're making. What a great idea to incorporate a mini-coaming off the sides of your sea hood.

Looking at those double curves makes me think of a ripple in a pond or an echo of your bow wave - a work of art! You have a great eye. Can't wait to see A-113 when you're done - she'll look right at home in her element...

Tony G

09-23-2009, 08:14 AM

Thanks for the kind words Captains.

Hey! Don't let the sunlight fool you! It got COLD last night! The epoxy was still tacky this morning:mad:. Oh well-I go through this every year-it'll be cured by tonight.

I did replace that first 'wire chase' with something a little better suited for the job. Got the tops on and shaped and then a layer of 6oz. too just to hold things in place for the time being. I am still undecided if I want to locate the compass above the companionway, the instrument heads, or both. I find it comfortable to sit in the cockpit facing aft with my back against the cabin so putting the instrument readouts there will ruin my backrest. Plus I'd like some sheet bags there to keep things tidy (I said sheet bags:p). At first I was concerned the 'robust' size of the readouts would block the view if they were mounted above the companionway but then I realized that view would be of the mast and vang anyway. Maybe mount them right along the companionway trim? Let's put it to a vote. What says you?

commanderpete

09-23-2009, 12:22 PM

Very nice and shapely Tony.

Above the companionway seems like the logical place to mount the instruments. But, I think visibility forward is a concern, depending on how many instruments you have, and how tall you are. See how it looks slouching in the cockpit without a cushion.

You could even recess the instruments in the bulkhead, maybe something vertical and close to the companionway so the crew and the lines don't block them.

Tony G

09-25-2009, 05:39 PM

Oh well-I go through this every year-it'll be cured by tonight.

Wrong! Didn't work out like that at all. I found a sticky, tacky, still soft mess when I arrived at the boat. Overly hopeful, I tried sanding it off first, but the pads gummed-up in about a minute. After trying finer grades and then coarsest of grade I resorted to utility knife and scraper. Dismal. Tore up the form significantly in a couple of places. All in all, a pretty unrewarding evening.

Spent my day off repairing and catching up. I think... Came to the conclusion that the instrument readouts wil have to be mounted on the aft bulkhead. The function buttons would be too hard to reach from the helm if they were mounted over the companionway. I really only intend to use them when necessary and that's probably the time I don't want to leave the helm. Besides, that will put the compass on the centerline.

More tubing and dodger parts should show up Monday. When things start getting too cold to work outside we'll have to make a bender and take a crack at it.

ebb

09-27-2009, 11:20 AM

Search motorcycle (HarleyDavidson, eg) sites and forums.

check this out as a lead in.
google> Hand Tube Bender Manual (MS-13-43, R2)
It's a manual bender that they say can handle 3/4" to 1 1/4" tube. Swagelok
No idea what they want for the tool. Maybe it can be rented. Maybe a more advanced model can be rented???

The simplicity of this tool makes me think even I could use it.
But bending 1" by hand will require hiring a 300# biker.

Considering the tube choices:
1" X .065 (.66#ft) / 1" X .046 (.50#ft) / 7/8" X .065 (.57#ft) / 7/8" X .046 (.44#ft)*. - this is the usual stuff used for bending and is commonly available in welded 304 for about $5 a foot. Anything else costs too much.

Amazing isn't it: a foot long piece of 1/16" thick 1" tube weighs in at three quarters of a pound! The thinner alternative, 3/64" wall, is half a pound a foot.

Custom pulpits and pushpits are astronomically priced at local marine fabrication shops. Was impressed by Geoff's extended pushpit, still am, but could never afford it.

But I'll wager you can't find one sailor who has actually bent tube for his pulpit.
All the help net nuts (boat design forum, woodenboat, ehow, etc) are cross threaded.

I did find, but lost it, a site where a guy had complete plans for a stand-up bender that used a bottle jack capable of doing smaller radius that can't be done by hand.
There is a bit of science to bending tube.** A bit more to planning the job. And some extra expense if the design calls for welding by an expert.

Did find a memorable piece of advice where filling the pipe with wax was recommended before any serious bending to keep the tube from collapsing. He suggested icing just before the work began. Filling the tube with sand is often mentioned - but sand is sand - you'd have to solder caps on the ends with sand. Worth experimenting with the wax idea, melt it out when done. (what kind of wax???)
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
*Pretty easy to see how weight adds up even for tube.
**Harbor Freight is a source for cheap pipe roll benders. Don't know if buffed stainless can survive a crude pipebender.

Tony G

09-27-2009, 05:52 PM

Ebb

I have been putzing around with this idea of DIYing a dodger, a bimini, a pulpit, a pushpit, a..., and a ... You get the picture. So having access to a unit that has the ability to do multiple radii is a must. I have decided that other than a anchor platform, thin walled tubing is plenty strong. A few years back we ordered some 7/8" thin wall for some project I've since forgotten. But I can tell you a 8foot length isn't very heavy, by my standards, and is still pretty dang strong. Put a couple of bends in it, and give some thought as to where the weak points are and you can make a piece that will do the job just fine.

I'm trying to keep the 1" stuff very simple as far as bends go. Instead using it in straight runs that can be cut and, here's the wrinkle, welded. The dodger and bimini are definately going to be 7/8". The hand rails on the cabin top will be 7/8" too. On our boats its all short lengths and that alone will keep it plenty strong. Just about anything is going to bend if we start running into stuff. And having a 'crush zone' that is something other than our beloveds sounds like a good idea to me.

Back to the hand rails. I've had this love affair of making the hand rails, dorade guards and mast pulpit all one continuous sweep with a single strut coming off it near the dorade vents to stabilize it. Dash it all-it might not work because the RBV might clip the tube where it bends up from hand rail to dorade guard/mast pulpit when the main is eased all the way out to the aft lower shrouds. A full sized working mock-up of the lower 3' of mast and a model of the RBV and a line substituted for the aft lower shroud and the hand rail/dorade guard/mast pulpit. Whew! I don't get that much done in season!

If Don Casey knows what he's talking about,(and I believe he does) his diagram in This Old Boat is a very simple unit that may do the job just fine with a low introductory cost. I'll just keep looking...

If you head over to the Technical threads I posted a link in the Bow Pulpit/ Stern Rail/ Pushpit thread to a crotch rocket forum where a guy discusses his DIY tubing bender. One thing he stated that no one else has is his bender fully surrounds the tubing while being bent. Somewhere in that post they discuss fillling the tube with sand and the 'author' states he did not, and did not believe it was necessary as the tube is surrounded. But sand would be cheap and easy to deal with. Wax would eat up too much boat money for me.

mrgnstrn

10-06-2009, 05:45 AM

Tony,

MY vote is for the "dashboard" style on top the cabin. If I could move my current instruments on my current boat, I would in a heartbeat! That way you don't have to take your eyes off the road. Also, if you pick instruments correctly, I doubt you will be punching buttons ever. At most you will want Boatspeed, Depth, and Wind (3 total). Granted, if you want to switch between apparent and true wind, you will be punching buttons, so just pick one and learn to love it!

just my opinion.
When I had my Ariel (#3), I mounted the depth on the aft face of the bridgedeck (in the cockpit well).
What a bad idea!
Whenever we were motoring out I liked to stand to get visibility, but then had to bend way over and stick my head down in the cockpit well to see if we were running aground (depth)! Poor ergonomics. The cabin-top dashboard (or even like the true-racers: on the mast) is the way to go!

-Keith

ebb

10-06-2009, 08:41 AM

Agree. The IDEAL place for instrument is over the companionway, at the front end. For coast sailing at night I wonder if there is a better location for an illuminated sounder - certainly not in the cockpit well. On an Ariel there aren't too many places.

Tube Bending.
Looked up router bits for making mandrels. There is nothing available to make a deep flute for 7/8". It is possible to have a custom bit made. $$$. So we're stuck with a readily available 1/2"R cove bit.
Shaper bits is another story. If you have access to a shaper, you can more easily find an outfit to custom a 7/8" round nose bit. They would make an absolutely perfect cradle for the tube - While having to make two passes with the router cove bit makes it possible to have a problem with the curve.
So it is likely that 1" tube is what we have to bend.
Making the mandrels will take some doing and care. I would guess the most versatile material is meranti, or birchply. You can glue it up to create a mandrel that has thicker sides, maybe even enough for the flute bit to roll on. We can glue on stuff, fix mistakes no problem.
Another great material is polyethylene - just bought a piece 1" thick, not too expensive. It's cutting board. Can't glue it, but it's as close to wax as solid plastic gets. In the photo of the green bending ap, the white mandrel must be polyethylene.
[Do you notice a little extra radius bend at the bottom of the mandrel? Maybe to take care of springback, right? Give the bend an extra kick in there.]
Stainless tube will love to be bent in this stuff.

And then there is making the bender itself. Are you thinking of doing that?

Found a Utube bending video where the guy filled the tube first with water, then poured in the dry sand. Said to pack in better.

As to wax. Paraffin can't be all that expensive in Minnesota. And for freezing it, all you have to do is open a door and stick the tube outside.

Dono what I'm going to do.
Reinventing the wheel over and over (total remodeling) is taking FOREVER. I have run out of time. I just know that a tube bending guy can take the tube, bend it just right, hold it up in the air over the pattern or the boat itself, and come up with a perfect stern pulpit. - 5 grand!
I will have a full 3D ply pattern that took me a couple months to make, and who knows HOW LONG it would take me to translate into nicely bent double axis tube? Just having to trim 1/4" off the end of a tube seems a chore. (Dang...forgot about the sand!:eek:)

Go forit, Tony.:o

Tony G

10-06-2009, 01:22 PM

Keith,

Thanks for the realworld input. A couple of years back I lucked out on a sale and got the Navman 3100 series wind, speed, depth with a 'repeater'. The display heads are something like 4 or 4 1/2 inches square. So the main three of them and a compass will be a tight fit above the companion way. Also, I incessantly worry about the compass being thrown off by the readouts. Craig (c_amos)suggested mocking up the dash on a piece of plywood and 'swinging' the compass:confused: Some reading may be in order before I try that. The tally stands at two above the hatch...

Ebb, sir!

I cobbled together a woodie version of the bender in the technical thread. I had hung onto a collection of old plywood cabinet doors from years ago because they were nice, solid chunks of material. Now I know why I carted 'em around for ten years!! A bender they are now!

In the noodling I did, I found all of 'commercial' units did both 7/8" and 1" on the same platen/form/die, whatever you'd call it. So I suspect that 1/8" just don't matter to the pros out there... a million here, a million there... so I used a 1/2"radius cove bit and glued and screwed the two halfs together. A 10" radius seemed like the best bet for what we got planned here. (although there are a couple of 5-6inch radius bends I'm hoping to pull off with a conduit bender) It seems that the crowning machine is the one that will make a big difference in the bow shape and bow strenght. And I haven't started making one of those yet, but it's a pretty straight forward machine. A couple of bolts and a couple of pulleys.

B.s. it's only been in the 40s for the last week. Utterly depressing....:(

ebb

10-06-2009, 02:13 PM

Tony, Yer DOING IT, way to go!
Now here is something we ALL want to see, I'm sure.

Want to see how it goes, lots of photos, OK?

I got the terminology wrong, tho there is some confusion by others too.
Those curved pieces that you bend the tube into ARE dies, CORRECT.

A mandrel is an interior piece like a ball or egg shape or a series of connected rings that just fit into the ID of a tube that keep the tube from distorting or collapsing. I think sand is NOT used in drawing the tube into the die form. Sand filled tube is bent in the 3 roller or where a single point force pushes the tube into a curved form. No roller.

I also read that we need to use the thicker tube if we are using the roller/draw method, because the metal is actually stretched on the outer side to make the curve. This may only be true on very tight radius bending.

The difference in thickness between the thinner and heavy wall s.s tube is .01563 or 1/64" How significant is that in terms of, say, stepping on a short straight piece in the stern pulpit? Can't find any data. Heavier is not always stronger.

Wanna see what happens!:D

Westgate

10-07-2009, 08:04 PM

Tony:

We had 85 here today. Ever think of moving your outfit a bit to the sutherd...extended working and SAILING season my friend!

I'm a transplant from Ontario so know the 40's and 30's and 20's in Oct all too well!

Andrew

PS I have been following your progress... great stuff...your work is always inspirational!!!

mrgnstrn

10-08-2009, 02:00 PM

Tony,

Look into using MDF for your tube bending "forms". shapes easily, and at the thickness you need to grip the tube (1.5") plenty strong. plus you can glue 2 sheets of 3/4" and get your form easily.

I would worry too too much about the compass. My compass is right on my binacle, with all my instruments surrounding it on the old-fashion Edson pods. plus the wheel, along with all it's internals (chain, brakes, screws) that sometimes have ferrous materials. Your nav instruments can't be too bad screwing with the compass. if they are, just get your navman repeater to spit out GPS heading. Close enough for most uses!

-Keith

-m

Tony G

11-16-2009, 12:28 PM

I just hate it when these threads start to die out. So...here is a picture I took this summer of some front-end hardware.

I'd really like to put a bowsprit/anchor platform on her. I noticed the Nor'sea 27s have a very sharp looking sprit that is not integral to the head sail layout. Finding other examples of the same has proven to be difficult. Anyone here have other examples?

ebb

11-16-2009, 02:56 PM

Hey Tony, glad to see they finally got electricity to ya in the shop.
Got to put away those ole kerosene lanterns , eh?
Nice looking boat!:D

Tony G

01-26-2010, 02:53 PM

I've been digging around looking at dodger designs that will fit my particular needs. Having a convertible or drop-top feature is pretty easy to accomodate into nearly all dodger designs. That is the 'easy' part. However, the areas that needed addressing here are the extreme 'sweep' outward these new, fatter cockpit coamings have and the not-so-typical mounting location of the dodger main frame on the cabintop. I purposely provided a solid mounting pad on the aft end of the cabintop coamings for mounting hardware being it was easy to do while I was in the area. But, as you all know, traditional dodgers frames are typically mounted on the cabin sides below the plane of the cabin top, or, on the breakwaters at the forward end of the coamings, or, on the coaming itself.

Years ago Ebb brought to our attention a company called Iverson Design and they had this photo of a Dana 24 with a dodger design that looks like it will fit my needs pretty good. It should be possible to add some removable 'wings' that will extend the dodger sides from the aft bow to a point just forward of the winches if deemed necessary in weather. Otherwise, I think going forward would be a little less restricted by the dodger sans wings. I think a bimini would be a nice addition too for sunnier climes. (read NOT Minnesota) And I am totally with Ebb in the cockpit version of a three season room.

ebb

01-28-2010, 08:56 AM

Canvas dodger folks can go around or solve any challenge you come up with - if you are going professional $$$$ with it.

Probably get a bunch of say 3/4' PVC tube and mock up a structure. Play with the angles, curves, widths and height. Maybe use blocks of wood with the appropriate tube size drilled in them to act as bases.

PVC is easy to bend into permanent curves with a heat gun or a gas bottle.
And you may be bending the real stuff yourself.
Bases for tube come in standard angles - you can plan for them when designing.

When we get above the deck we have a proportion problem with any permanent structure. But in your shop you'll be able to see your model from every angle - except maybe 30/60 feet off the side where many fotos are taken. The bimini always looks awkward to me. Imco any camping-out structure is forgiven because it's taken down when sailing.
The dodger, if it's permanent has to be proportional. Doctor Alberg's ROUNDED cabin design imco implies a rounded rather than a squared dodger.Wiill look better especially if it has to be bigger than expected because the Ariel is so small.

I think the pulpit Pearson put on the bow is only about 24" tall. And it looks right. But it's too short for me unless I'm crawling on the foredeck.
With the forest of chrome and polished stainless planted on modern cruisers it's becoming more acceptable to our eye to have extra stuff above the sheer line.

The dodger is not only an aesthetic but a windage problem.
I don't think you'll have any problem with the aesthetics!
An all cloth dodger/bimini may be the only solution for an Ariel.
The 'pram' dodger folds forward and out of the way
and the bimini is taken down like a tent and stowed when not in use.
So stanchion bases or even permanent low s.s. tube 'seat backs' around the cockpit can be attachment points for the taller but temp binimi structure.
Think I want low (but high enough to put an arm up) stepover tubes on the sides of the cockpit placed to lean against when sailing or lounging.

So I would plant PVC pipe around wherever, and add and remove. Play it out.
I'd try double sided carpet tape to stick the mock-up wood 'bases'. Use the more expensive stuff that has a fiberglass cloth inside, it allows you to peel it off.

I've come to see the Ariel as a 3/4 size boat.
Nearly everything I put in or on lit'lgull must be the smallest size that works.
If cruising in a rainy area or heading for the tropics a bow to stern bimini would make the whole deck into the 'extra room'. Bigger projects could be tackled or going topside at any time could save your marriage;) I'd have a closable cockpit salon in any case
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Here's something else to consider for camping out
www.mosquitocurtains.com
Go to 'PhotoGallery' Unusual #1' for a couple pic of noseeum netting used on a bimini. Some ideas on the tube framing also.

Tony G

04-27-2010, 07:50 AM

Wow! it's the end of April allready! I finally got to go up and see the love again. Spent some time just sitting in different spots wiping away the accumulation of dust, dirt and any unsavory sign of Old Man Winter's recent visit. I'm still okay with the fatter, taller cockpit coamings. The dodger coamings are still 'on', although I wish I had installed a MUCH larger conduit for the instrument bundle wiring and may have to do a 'radical, post-attached, ectomy of some sort. And the cockpit stowage in the forward section of the footwell? Still leaning in that direction in a not-quite-so-obtrusive design. I know, Craig, I know...

But down below I still don't have a place to lie down comfortably. And that's a very big thing if one is hoping to gain any restorative powers from sleep. The hard, cold fact of the matter is I've screwed-up! The good thing is all those hours of studying (looking at pictures of) larger boats exposed me to design features I liked and thought useful. The bad thing is I tried to duplicate a +/-40 foot boat in a 25+ foot boat. Maybe it can be done but I haven't done it here. It might look good through a camera lens but doesn't wear well when you're in it. Crap! Crud! Which ever.

The long and short of it is I'll have to remove a good deal of the work I've done and start over. Hey, it's not such a bad thing. Could be worse. I'll just look at it from the stand point of this boat deserves better and I know I can do better. Realisticly it's going to be a few years before she gets to meet the briney anyway. Besides, with all the captains on this forum doing all work that's going on there will be some really cool ideas to steal!:)

Thanks for listening to me snivel and drone on.

Commander 147

04-27-2010, 08:02 AM

Tony....please feel free to vent anytime you need to, but please don't leave us hanging like that. What do you have to take out to accomplish what goal?

ebb

04-27-2010, 09:07 AM

Hey Tony,
Taking off from Jerry's byline, which sounds very Edisonian to me, and spot on: maybe adding a paraphrase from Edison, The Man and His Work by George S Bryan 1926 on his electric light improvement:

"The electric light has caused me the greatest amount of study and has required the most ELABORATE EXPERIMENTS
....Altho I was never myself discouraged or hopeless about its success, I cannot say that of my associates....
Through all the years of experimenting with it, I never once made an associated discovery. It was deductive...
The results I achieved were the consequence of invention - pure and simple.

"I would CONSTRUCT and work along various lines until I found them untenable.
When one theory was DISCARDED, I developed another at once.

"I realized very early that this was the only possible way for me to work out all the problems."

Perhaps a little long, this - but it describes a process of handling disappointment. Or, obviously, of not getting into that, not giving it any weight, just a step in the process.
It's the process that's important, that's where the breath and the brain is.

So if you glued it in, you can take it out, it's only SNOT as Herreshoff called it.

You have the boat, you have unique ideas, you like the PROCESS, working in the shop,
otherwise you'd be selling mortgage insurance.

Edison also is quoted as saying he liked his phonograph invention best.
Rest assured, there will be music and dancing when launching day arrives!

Tony G

04-27-2010, 10:40 AM

Does anyone remember how this all started? I found a little bit of rot at the base of the main bulkhead. Okay, in reality I could peel the plys apart with a phillips screwdriver and not much effort. So just like 10 years ago, one single event precipitates a whole sequence of events, or, changes in this case.

Without turning a blind eye to what I've known for some time, this is what I feel has to happen.
1) Raise the remains of the v-berth to both widen the sleeping platform and increase storage. Then add a filler piece, which will make using the head an exorcise if using the v-berth for, I dunno, sleeping.
2)Excise the plastic water tank. I never tested it for leaks, it's all my water eggs in one basket, has no baffles. Make 2 smaller integral water tanks and still have room left over for storage.
3)The platform reserved for the head needs to be lowered just incase I have a windfall and get a composter. But incase not, build an integral or 'fits like a glove' holding tank.
4)Re-reconstruct the starboard storage in the main salon to allow my feet to fit under the cabinets with a mattress underneath when sleeping athwartships. This one really hurts but I think the louvered doors will work up front in the v-berth after the changes come about.

Those are the wrinkles that I feel absolutely need to be addressed. But it is not inconcievable that something in the main cabin and galley area might need attention too. Like sub-sole storage to name one. Well, what's another 10gallons of epoxy among friends. Right?

Rico

04-27-2010, 11:15 AM

Commander 147

04-27-2010, 11:16 AM

Tony

I truly feel your pain. I spent 20 hours working on C147 this weekend and the longer I worked the more I decided I wanted to do. If we allow them to these things can literally go on for ever. But I enjoy sailing more than I enjoy working on my boat so I'm starting to take the approch of "I will do this much this year and then when I pull her at the end of the sailing season I will do these things".

I don't know what your sailing plans are after the refit but I had the same issue with the head under the v-birth because my wife and I are getting older and find that the head is more frequently needed in the middle of the night for both of us. I mostly daysail but two weeks a year I go on 1-week long mini-cruises. so I decided to simplify and solve the problem by doing away with the marine head and using a porta potty under the v-birth during the day and pull it out into the cabin during the night. Less plumbing and less things that can go wrong while at the same time solving the problem for us. But we also tend to spend at least every other night in a marina so we can get a good shower and hot meal before we head out for two more days.

I can't say I can offer any suggestions for number two on your list but my resolution to number one also takes care of number 3 on your list and possibly number 4.

You are the only one that can determine what is right for you. So of course this is offered only as something to think about. And as a good friend of mine likes to say "Your mileage may vary" :-)

Sail on _/)~~~_/)~~~

Tony G

04-27-2010, 02:09 PM

Jerry,

Boy I wish I could only do 'this' much then go sailing. But I've got a loooong way to go before that can happen. Well, in this boat at least. Thanks for the kind words and heart. We all could use a little of that!

Rico,

You bought a sail away boat too? I wonder if we took a poll here of how many of us purchased our boats in said shape actually did? Ha-Ha

Ebb,

You're still one of my mentors...

Hull376

04-27-2010, 03:46 PM

Tony,

Fear not the gathering gloom. Watch lights fade in every room. OOOPs, that was a line from one of the old Moody Blues songs, maybe Nights in White Satin??? Anyway, it doesn't apply to you in any case. You know what? I'd do what you have to do to go sailing!!! Looking at the insides of racing boats that have literally NOTHING inside them means that you can do something with whatever is left to do inside your boat! Trust me, when the wind is blowing, especially after dark, and the water is rushing past the hull in the darkness with starry skies above, what is below doesn't matter a bit!!. I sail with a bunch of Hunter Beneteau sugar scoop transom-ed, entertaining oriented 46 footer plus folks in a cruising club here in Texas (and they all have blenders, sat TV, radar, and dinghy's) and my boat is the smallest, least sophisticated, oldest, cheapest, and probably slowest boat on our cruises. But guess what? Everyone loves my boat because it goes where the others can't, takes the seas just as well as theirs, doesn't need more than my hands on the tiller, and looks GREAT when tucked amongst the white massive vessels with all the jazz inside them (see that little blue boat amongst the biggies?). Sooooo! Your goal should be to get the exterior in shape, step the mast, and go sailing. You can have a project below that no one will see or care about!! Go for it!!

Tony G

04-27-2010, 06:40 PM

It's good to hear from you again, Kent.

Because we bought this lovely lady in 'sail away' condition (see above)I have much to do yet besides the re-re-redo. New furler to install, sail track and cars for the main, running rigging, outboard, rudder shoe issues, then we'd have to go East to Lake Superior (too cold) or South the Mike's neighborhood near the twin cities of MN just to float! Hundreds of miles either option.

No. This is something to do now. Strike while the iron is hot. There will always be a project somewhere on the boat. That's just the reality of owning a boat you care about. Take tonight for instance...

Not being one to just 'dive in', after arriving at the boat I waited about five minutes before digging in. I started with something mild like unscrewing the hinges in the flip-top for the head. Then a finish screw here and there. Then it was controlled mayhem removing cleats and pieces and 'carefully' cutting tabing with a utility knife(yeah, right). it wasn't too long before I was peeling off laminate and launching pieces into the cockpit...okay, launching probably isn't entirely acurate. But what is acurate is the peeling off the laminate I had applied to the cabinetry in the v-berth area. I had sealed the wood pieces agianst water intrusion with a couple coats of epoxy then applied a formica laminate with, what else, contact cement. Well folks, that was 2-3 years ago and it came off tonight with little effort. Therefore, by the mere act of these laminate pieces figuratively 'falling off' in my hand, my urge, nay the necessity to correct these issues has been justified!! (Not long ago these words would have been followed by the townspeople crying, "Burn her! Burn her! She's a witch!")

So next is the grinder to really get things rolling, followed by some serious sanding and paint removal. A clean slate. I feel good about this. Like Gene wilder as the young Dr. Frankenstien said, "It! Could! Work!"

Tony G

04-28-2010, 06:42 PM

I got serious about this tonight after work. Busted out the 4 1/2" grinder to cut the tabbing that was holding the furniture in. Even with a full face respirator on I could smell the acrid smoke and fumes of the heated epoxy-yuck! I can honestly say polyester grinds more flavourful. Before I proceed with anymore grinding we will replace the carbon cartidges.

It was good to open up the area to help visualize the changes we're goin to make there. I was hoping to use several of the transverse bulkheads tabbed in from the recent previous furniture but it doesn't look as promising tonight as it did last night. But, armed with confidence a complete denuding of the forecabin isn't quite as daunting as it was several years ago. It certainly doesn't wear on me like the nagging feeling of knowing that the space is just 'not right' in more ways than I can really explain.

The pieces left in place will serve as references or landmarks to help lay-out the patterns for the new configuration. At least until they are also removed. Yes, I said patterns. Full sized and accurate! Hopefully this will help eliminate, or at least reduce, wasted time and materials. And speaking of materials. I'm thinking about using some 1/4" and 3/8" plywood this time around to spare some unneccesary material weight. Let's face it, it doesn't all have to be 1/2" and 3/4". The weight of the pieces I hauled off tonight was a bit worrysome to me in the past. Certainly when you consider there was still more cabinetry to go in!

I'll gas up the camera tomorrow and try to remember to snap a few pics.

c_amos

04-28-2010, 07:48 PM

....Before I proceed with anymore grinding we will replace the carbon cartidges. .....

Please do Tony... please do.

Commander227

04-28-2010, 09:25 PM

Tony...Dude...I'm just in from a sail with an good friend who brought entirely too much Surly beer, so try to read this through the same beer goggles I'm wearing. (Good thing The Princess is moored with in walking distance!)
So...Tony... Dude...I'm not say'in, I'm just say'in...you need a plan, you need to prioritize and then let er buck! Come to terms, compromise, what do you need vs. what do you want.
I know... I feel the Caribbean's pull and I know its pulling you harder! You have to finish her so you can work on all the other B.S. you need to wrap up thats keeping you from going! You've got a great boat, cool innovations. You can keep innovating or live with the flaws. Is the goal to build a really cool boat, or to take a really cool trip? Both are valid goals, but one might keep you from the other.
You need to make your escape from these latitudes so I know it can be done and follow you!
I need you to make it! I have resources, what can I do to help?
Quote of the day; "buy the ticket, take the ride," Hunter Thomas.
Living vicariously through what I imagine are your dreams,
Mike

Tony G

04-29-2010, 08:36 AM

Please do Tony... please do.
Absolutely, Craig. I was shocked at how potent the fumes were in an instant. I vacated the boat in search of the mighty box fan and popped it prostrate on the forward hatch blowing down-and on high! These are last years cartridges and there is such a paultry amount of carbon in them to begin with. I worked as a printer through my extended college years so I'm tired of chemical stink and hope to be done with it for good.

Mike! Surly beer and a sail in April? In Minnesota no less!?!? I live vicariously through you, my friend!

It's a brand new plan with the same goal. We are switching from a floating, weekend camper to a boat you could live aboard for extended periods if, heaven forbid, we had to! nyuk nyuk nyuk. Given your height you surely know what it's like to semi-sleep in some sort of twisted, half-crazed fetal position. Too many nights like that would ruin the best of sailing grounds. We got a sound grasp on what we need. The 'wants' as far as amenities will just have to fall by the wayside if they don't fit in with little effort. Again these are small boats and I just need to be honest with myself about what is important and what is silly, mindless, consumerism. You are right. The destination will make the trip that much more rewarding.

I truely appreciate your offer. Thank you.

ebb

04-29-2010, 10:22 AM

There was this famous swim coach who for many years taught hundreds of kids how to win at the sport.

One day a happy group threw him into the pool. He drowned.
He had always been afraid of water and had never learned to swim.

But I know about the bad side of mentoring too.
I once did the Justin Sterling Weekend:eek:
I feel we be equals here

except that maybe I made many more mistakes than most.

Tony G

05-01-2010, 06:29 AM

First up. New cartridges. These made all the difference. One other thing I noticed was switching to my 8" grinder that spins way slower than 10,000RPM 4 1/2" produced much, much less of the acrid, nasty @$$ smell I noticed the first night. Glad to report I could smell nothing but coffee breath with the repirator on.

Tony G

05-01-2010, 06:33 AM

Posted here soley for the enjoyment of others. We've all seen this before, kind of. I think I may be addicted to grinding. I even grind my teeth at night....
Still more to come out but first I'm going to lay out some lines.

Tony G

05-01-2010, 06:40 AM

I'm going to weigh the pieces that came out of the v-berth. Here are two crappy photos of the poluted work shop and said pieces.

Bought 2 sheets of 1/4" Baltic Birch to go back in. Of course there will be sections of 1/2" ply where needed but I'm pretty sure what I want to do can be accomplished with lighter material and a little more thought given to structure and design.

CapnK

05-04-2010, 08:36 PM

Dibs on Tony's cast-offs...

They'll be better than my finished product. :cool:

Tony G

05-17-2010, 08:25 AM

Dibs on Tony's cast-offs...

They'll be better than my finished product. :cool:
Now you're just being silly, Kurt. I don't think you want all 103.8 pounds of it! Yeah, over one hundred pounds and not a filled locker, water tank, no ceiling strips, nothing! I wasn't even done adding cabinets and storage up front yet!!! Hopefully things will work out a little better this go around. But heck yeah, Kurt, they're all yours. Pick up or deliver?;)

I've been giving some thought to really changing-up the cabin layout from where we're at now. I like the open forecabin layout of the smaller Gozzard's, Nor Sea, Flicka type interiors. Of course that would require two major changes (at least) from the current layout. First would be doing away with the strongback and main bulkhead. Easy enough to tear them out and install a compression post. And I really, really like the idea of opening up the cabin that way. But that would really hinge upon part 'B' which would be adding an enclosed head by the main hatch. So to that extent I mocked-up some cardboard bulkheads and made another attempt at defining a space for the head. Now I've done this once before but it's been a number of years since that try and for some reason I guess I thought something had changed with the hull shape and size since then... No surprise. It just will not fit. Well the bulkheads will fit but then I won't fit inside the space.

I used the opening of the sliding hatch to define fore and aft bulkhead placement and then used the space between the two portlites as the location for the athwartship bulkhead. It really took a chunk out of the interior! But if one opened up the fore cabin it wouldn't seem that cramped to me. However, with these dimensions the head compartment wouldn't be functional. This brings me to the conclusion that one would have to move the hatch over 5-6inches port or starboard to use the same landmarks for bulkhead placement. I wouldn't hesitate a minute to do that if I hadn't allready put the seahood, rails and dodger coamings on. Maybe we can talk Frank into doing this. I think Marvin Gaye said it best, Let's get it on...

Tony G

05-19-2010, 07:53 AM

After proving to myself yet again that the enclosed head idea just wont work for me, and, not being able to think outside the box enough to formulate a new, revolutionary aft head set-up, I set off in a new direction.

Given that the widest point on our hull (on the Ariels) is about the mid to aft section of the main cabin it the makes most sense to me to locate an athwartship convertable berth there. Right about where my galley is now... So I tossed around the idea of moving the galley to mid ship across the main bulkhead much like Geoff did on UHURU. That would allow for 2 quarter berths that could be used underway or pull double-duty as storage, as I understand most do. I can easily bridge the walkway for a queen sized harbour berth, and, keep my hanging wet-locker under the companionway which I believe is my only original contribution to this project.:D

As for moving the galley forward I have to give up my standing headroom while preparing those exquisite, gourmet meals I'm known for....right. But I recall Geoff's rational as food prep. being a 'sit down job' anyway. I can do that. There is an illustration in one of Ferenc Mate's books of a galley slave stool that was just a bit higher than setee height that allowed one to work without having to stand. Ingenious!!! Most of the employees here would LOVE that! My other concern with regard to moving the galley forward is ventilation. Not only because I'm a lousy cook and the smoke and the smell, but also the heat. Heat from the cook stove and the refer. I do have the two dorades located directly above and those used in conjunction with the forward hatch, the bow ventilator and the main hatch will move some air through the interior. But I remembered I still have the 13" Bomar I tried to sell a while back. What if I dropped that into the seahood? If the sliding hatch is only partially closed I could have full venting capacity from the smaller Bomar. Sure the RBV is an issue, but that's easy enough to handle. It could work!

Another issue I've been throwing about my brain pan is moving the anchor chain stowage back a little farther. Let me be the first to admit I've had some hare brained ideas! But this one might just work. Because I have the port side storage lockers going in along side the, what was the V-berth but is now a '\-berth' I have a way to add a chain pipe that wouldn't be in the middle of the 'bed'. If the locker works it would pile the chain about where the aft end of the original water tank would be. Right now it's just an idea. I have to see if I can get the chain to 'spill' to the center of the space.

Only other great shake is moving the original chain locker bulkhead forward 6-8 inches for more leg room on those berths if they need to be used. I want to add some support in that area for a deck eye so we can add a removable solent stay. And, well, as long as we're in the area....

Just some ideas and conclusions. But this isn't a true study so I could be wrong on both parts and all of the above. Mull it over and shoot it apart. I think that's the only way to make it evolve and get there.

mbd

05-19-2010, 08:56 AM

Hey Tony, I'm sure you remember the Enclosed Head (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?882-Enlosed-Head) thread? It was A-412 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1307-FS.-Ariel-412.-Virginia) that had this modification. A-412's head looks awfully tight though, like you'd have to tuck yourself in there up under the side deck.

Maybe Kurt will pipe in on the status of his aft cabin head? I wonder if he's still got it located there?

My "someday plans" are to add a compression post and add an enclosed head in the hanging locker location. I'd extend the bulkhead out to the compression post make more room for the head with an off-center passageway to the v-berth. I would pretty much keep most other things the way they are with 2 quarter berths and the v-berth. I need sleeping for 4 however, so you may have some more options as far as your galley, etc.

If you did something like this, you could run your anchor chain down a pipe by this bulkhead and maybe store the chain in a locker built where the portable head is now?

Neat idea with the hatch on the sea hood, but wouldn't that allow water to enter the cabin from the back and up underneath the sea hood? You could probably come up with something like bulwarks or baffles to discourage that though. Although, with a dodger... That might be a nice mod in any event just for more ventilation in the cabin.

PS. I'm glad you didn't rip out your nice curvaceous cabinetry! Those are way too nice to redo!

PSS. Looks like you did away with your forward opening ports too?

c_amos

05-19-2010, 09:17 AM

Tony,

I sure do like looking at your work. She is a blessed ship indeed to have come under your shops roof.

I had not noticed the port light delete before. I had considered the same thing on Faith. You get plenty of light in the opening hatch, I never open them, too many accounts of the latches breaking off ...

Is that permanent, or are you installing something else there?

I think your decision to re-consider the head there is wise. I can not imagine the torture trying to extricate one's self from that location if you were underway and just finishing your coffee while underway...

THe hatch on top of the hatch is interesting... Looks like it wold only get air when the hatch was closed... unless I am missing something.
I usually just leave the hatch open in all but the worst weather... gotta love the dodger. What conditions would you use that topside opening hatch in?

Tony G

05-19-2010, 10:38 AM

Captains, I am selfish in that I will not incorporate an enclosed head that does not give me some room. Not that we're planning on having a soiree in there. It's just one of those 'things' I like to do unimpeded. I understand the concept of close quarters and hand and foot holds so you're not flopping about, but, that is one thing I've decided to be totally selfish and maybe a smidgen unpractical about when it comes to a boat this size. That is why it just seems 'right' for me to leave the head where it is drawn. Besides now I can seriously look at a composter:cool:

Water intrusion is a major consideration for me when it comes to the 'hatch in the hood'. At first I was thinking about leaky seals. But if that was the case then I'd also have a biger problem up front . And the thought of water working it's way back around the hood and hatch, over coming the rail drains which flow into the cockpit would probably mean we're in some pretty heavy stuff. Although it is of major importance to keep dry and comfortable onboard, I accept that it is a small boat, and furthermore, a boat so I must expect some water below in the worst of it.

As it turns out the main hatch would only have to be about 1/4 to 1/3 closed to get full ventilation out of the Bomar. Even with partial blockage by the slider, I'm confident that air would find it's way around. I think it would really only be wise to open that hatch when anchored. Maybe slightly opened if we were drifting along:confused:

And the curvey furniture....it's going as it exists currently. But that is going to give me the chance to improve on it! Oh yeah, you can't have a u-shped galley without curves.;) The forward ports were in relatively tough shape. Especially for a freshwater boat. I had thought about replacing them until I saw the prices. WOW!!!! I'm absolutely fine without them. I think the Ariels have a nice enough nose to not need them.

ebb

05-19-2010, 02:11 PM

Tony, we just don't have the beam of even a Flicker!

Suggestions, you know me, always suggestions.....
Suppose you did have the head where you show the cardboard model.
But instead of hard sides you had soft sides. We've got super Nylon zippers now
- you could have a zip open door in a CANVAS enclosure.

Knees could poke into the sides until the body is settled
- maybe it could be large enough to turn around in.
Could have a second set of zippers that will unzip the whole enclosure and gather it at the side.

A head doesn't get that much use, but it could be made to zip into a private space without too much fuss.
Test it out with cloth model. And it could be made larger because it is temporary. Permanently temporary.

There are many extraordinary fabrics these days there would be something for the job. I like the tan of the cardboard.
It could be a relatively heavy material so that it holds shape without wrinkles or folds. R, why not Sunbrella?
By the same token, more room can be found over where the portside cupboards used to be at the main bulkhead.
Might even have a fold down sink there. But it could be the same fabric enclosure that would be gathered out of the way for open space.
The problem really is that the deck gets in the way of the head. The human head.
The loo would be under a cushion so the function wouldn't be noticed right off.

There would always be the option when using the throne to zip up the canvas cabin - or not.

Tony G

05-29-2010, 12:25 PM

Ran up to the boat today after work. I'm really starting to jones for putting some time in on her. A couple of years ago one of the 'guys' pulled the boat and trailer ahead about ten feet. It didn't matter to me at that time because I had enough of the furniture in that I could use those pieces as a benchmark or references as needed. But being we're rearranging things below I thought it would be a good idea to level her according to the scribed waterlines again. Simply used a floor jack, some cinder blocks, assorted pieces of varying thickness of hardwood and plywood and 50' of 5/8" clear vinyl tubing. I didn't bother taking photos because it just wasn't that exciting. But I will say I am happy to have that not-so-laborious yet time consuming task out of the way.

CapnK

06-01-2010, 02:48 PM

I lopped out the starboard corner head a while back, partly due to the same concerns Mister Tonygee cites; the hard walls I was using were just too much structure for so little (in use as well as in size) space...

So I bounced the head idea around a while. Put it back up front in the middle for the longest time. Then one day, when I was ripping out the sink and looking at all that space under the companionway, a Thought occurred. All that space there, and when we use the loo, we usually sit anyway...

Lately I've been experimenting with a composting head. I have nearly all the stuff needed to mount a 'traditional' wet head, and was aiming that way, but thought that just for the sake of completeness, if nothing else, I should try the composting head thing... People speak so highly of it, and all...

Well, I "invented" a ~$10 version of those phancy shmancy $1,000 heads (using a 5 gal bucket, an odd-shaped funnel, and a plastic coffee can), and have been using it for about 3 weeks now, and I can attest to the facts of why people like them so much. There really is no odor, none appreciable, other than that of peat moss, and then only if you take the time to try and notice it. And I don't have a fancy fan and tube ventilator, either... Tho' the boat does stay pretty much open 24/7...

And I've been keeping it there under the companionway, in a makeshift, temporary, 'try-b4-u-buy' construct meant to simulate a fold-up water cabinet idea I've been totin' around in me noggin.

This weekend, I took the plunge and cut out the sole platform at the base, thereby recessing the 'posting head bilgeward, so that the top of it sits less than 12" above what is the floor under most of y'alls sinks. I am imagining a curtain that wraps around it to be used as both a privacy- and shower-screen.

It's working out fairly well. I'll play with it a bit more, see what strikes as most practical, then post some photos for y'all who might be interested.

Also, (hijack warning! ;)) I got my external chainplate bling drilled and somewhat-mostly polished, and the welder is supposed to have finished my tabernacle by now. I'll be poking a stick back up into the sky before the month is out...

mbd

06-01-2010, 06:26 PM

Sounds like it's high time for Kurt to start posting some more pics and updates himself!

Tony G

06-02-2010, 10:51 AM

No kidding there, Mike! Not only has it been a looongtime coming, but Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! That's cutting into my 'research'.

Kurt, I am thinking a composter is the logical way to go...no pun intended. The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter. Now on we're living within our means in the physical sense. So this guy is really interested in what you've been bouncing around in your noggin. You've lived on board and that is the experience I need to draw on especially when it comes to living space.

And glad you brought up chainplates. I've thought about moving them outside too. Geoff never really addressed what he did, if anything, to the hull for mounting the CPs outside. Some builders go whole hog laying in extra roving and glass where the CP gets bolted. Others incorporate furniture to beef up the area. How much extra(if any) support do you think we need being a smaller boat? And then the nutz-n-boltz stuff like how big, did you make them yourself, how'd polish them, how you're mounting them, etc., etc..

mbd

06-02-2010, 11:41 AM

The biggest leap for me was accepting the fact that these hulls are not any bigger than they are. Seems silly, I know, but that is the fact of the matter.
No kidding. When I'm looking at pictures of other boats for my "someday" ideas, the 26-27 foot range is usually in the "wouldn't that be nice" category, whereas the 22 footers are more like "now that could be done". (i.e. the compression post/bulkhead/enclosed head. hint hint!) ;)

Maybe I should start pestering Kurt over on his thread to GIMP it up! Now, I'll let you guys who are actually working on your boats get back to it...

Bill

06-02-2010, 01:00 PM

Capt. K has pulled a lot of his photos from this site! ..

Sorry. We lost that setting when upgrading. Attachments no longer removable . . . unless you ask the moderator nicely . . .:cool:

CapnK

06-03-2010, 05:36 AM

I think I'm sold on the composter idea. The mega-bux unit websites claim "80 uses" for 2 pounds of peat moss, so going solo and assuming 1 use per day, that means I'll get about 2.5 months of usage before I have to empty my 'holding tank'. There's not much that can fail, nothing really mechanically, and that appeals, especially that it negates at least 2 thru-hulls, & there's no fixing costly joker valves or replacing/cleaning tubes full of crud. The space footprint is a lot smaller, too - no tubes or extra space needed for an external holding tank, deck pumpout and below waterline seacock, and tubes to reach those spots...

Right now, I have the bucket sitting down into what was the deep bilge access hole, the square spot under the sink, and so I cannot sit straight up on the throne, the bridgedeck prevents that. But there is ready room to move the contraption forward a bit, if that is needed, for comfort or for someone taller than my 5' 9". Being able to utilize that space normally below the sole really helps a lot.

Chainplates - I'm borrowing a bit from here and there. Craig/Faith has me talked in to using FRP only for purposes of longevity and no maintenance worries, and I'm taking a page from Island Packet with how they distribute the shear forces on their boats.

Their chainplates are basically a grid made of SST plate; think of a sort of elongated TicTacToe board, placed up against the hull inside. Then take fiberglass rope, about a thumbs roundness worth and say 6-8' long, weave it through the grid, and take the two 2-3' 'tails' down onto the hull, getting splayed out farther and farther as you get away from the grid. Think 'long blond ponytail', wet out, and the end spread to cover as much surface area as possible. An upside-down V, where the apex/bottom of the V wraps over the chainplate grid up and around the vertical members, and the tips of the V spread out to distribute the force across a wide area.

I'll use fiberglass pads shaped like below, shooting for thick enough to double hull thickness there, bonded to the hull, and then do the rope thing over those pads to help spread the shear out and down. Bolts come thru the hole in the middle, with big washers and etc... 6706

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault! :)

Tony G

06-03-2010, 07:11 AM

Kurt, you're back!

Whoa! Just the thought of having to work on a busted and possibly 'loaded' head is enough for me to consider getting out of sailing! Ok, maybe just sell the boat 'as is' with the crapped-out crapper and buy a different one. And if some folks are put off a bit by the word 'composting' I hear we can call it a 'urine diverting' toilet.:D

Your chainplates sound very interesting and seem to be a new twist. Is the diagram above your actual chainplate or the backing for chainplate attachment? The IPs have a neat set-up for tying their CPs together and distributing the load. Another plus is the addition of a bonding point for grounding is easily handled too. There are a lot more questions regarding this mod. coming for sure.

ebb

06-03-2010, 07:56 AM

I'm a composter too. I got the first one with the miniature seat, I'll always wonder if the name Airhead refers to the buyer. I would definitely get the Nature's Squat, or whatever it's called because it has a more intelligent seat.

BUT, there is a thru-deck for these composters that has always bothered me.
And I have no good solution to its placement.
My composter will be in the remains of the V-berth area on Littlegull.
But wherever you put the thing you have to have a vent AND THE BLOODY HOSE.
The 3" vent itself will work with a solar nicro fan on deck (8" diameter?). Where does it go on an Ariel deck? And how does the hose get to it in the accommodation?

I've thought of adding some sort of half round dorade inspired vents to the outside of the cabin up near the mast. The vent hose to the composter has to be kept in place all the time. Unless there is another solution, that hose is a PITA.

By SST I assume you are talking about stainless steel.
I think interweaving fiberglass 'rope' into holes would be extremely difficult.
You'd be creating odd spaces that would be hard to fill.
AND, since you would not be mechanically fastening the perforated sheet to the hull,
I don't see what is gained by doing this? Plain fiber would probably be stronger imco.

How about carbon fiber, no metal, as some of the racers are doing?
It's available, altho the methodology requires vacuum forming with the stuff.
One intriguing form of cabon fiber is that it is also available in tube form.
You decide the diameter, because it stretches like socks.

It is dangerous to encapsulate s.s.
Though total encapsulation is theoretically possible.
Aluminum plate (6061T6) comes in a variety of perforations.
40% more thickness to aluminum, supposedly equals the strength of s.s.
But you'd have the same encapsulation problem.

Then there is bronze (655). Doesn't matter what you do to it. AND epoxy sticks pretty well if that's what you have to do.
(Littlegull's external chainplates are waiting for me to slap them on. They are all polished and
bling the topsides very nicely. I'm strut bolting through the hull with meranti built-up backing inside. You can cut and shape silicone bronze with handtools.)

Good luck with that frp 'chainplate' idea. Have to see photos!!!

[later edit] Island Packets must have rampant corrosion problems! imco NOT a good idea!
Both with the weld AND with the partial encapsulation of the stainless plate.:(
Both Pascoe and BrionToss will have you keel-hauled:)

ebb

06-03-2010, 11:01 AM

google
[DOC] View Word Document - The look on my crew's face was priceless

www.Islandpacketphotos.compictures%5CAd_898_word doc
(pretty sure that won't come up.

Scroll on what looks like an email page to get the article.

You will also see pics of Tom's 'string theory' in his repair.
I don't think it'll work, but there you go...
He fixed it so the same stress cracking will happen again!
it's not just me that's having problems with this idea.

Tony G

06-03-2010, 11:06 AM

Regarding the missing pictures - those were linked from my old website, which is why they aren't visible anymore, that site has been gone for 4 years or so... I still have the images floating around, need to check and see if the posts themselves list the image names or numbers so that I could re-upload them... One thing is for sure: It ain't Bills fault! :)
Four years!?!? I just did a RipVanWinkle...

I certainly didn't want to imply that I was faulting you or anyone else nor accusing anyone of nefarious intent or activities. I just really like pictures;) Was it Mike (mbd) that proposed a photo exchange of everybody's personal files of boat stuff? I think that would be an honorable economic stimulus. All thoses CDs getting purchased uptown and then zipping around the country via the mail. The spring before this last I got a CD from CJ & Laura and I still dig looking at the progress and ideas.

That vent may be my next wrinkle. I'm thinking it's nothing right now but it's going to be a...a...well you put it best, PITA. Can anyone here attest to the odor emitted by said vent hose? Is it worse than a chain locker? Maybe it could be vented up there. We have a ventilator there allready and if you add a couple of holes like Frank and Geoff did that might exhaust it. Is it a 2",3",4"hose? If you can get a pumpout hose through the v-berth a vent hose shouldn't be that much more difficult. If you can't hide a seam, celebrate it!

ebb

06-04-2010, 07:59 AM

Both small composters require POSITIVE venting
That something has to draw air from the chamber to some point outside.

It's a rather large hidden extra cost if you go with a day/night nicro vent
Alternatively a small fan can be wired into the boat's system.
A caveat is that both composters need constant air circulation, so if it's wired you have a constant draw,
altho these days you can find very efficient fans. A $10 fan is included in the monster cost of the composter.
First thought is that if you're going to have a 100,000 year old toilet in your boat you might as well go non-electric as well - so I'd look to a solar powered/battery back-up fan.

This type fan and stainless cover has a substantial footprint. In fact wherever you imagine it can go it will sustain many more footprints. These things aren't meant to be trodden on.

But, that said, if you can figure out a way for the forward cowl vent to share the work then that's a fine idea.
But isn't the composter an OUTIE and the cowl vent an INNY?

The little reading you can do about these heads is that they do NOT stink.
If used precisely as instructed.
Infact they can be quite neutral. Have to spike the bottle with white sugar to deodorize! Better be innocuous because my bunk is right over the throne!
The only problem is the legal disposal of liquid and 'solids'
and that it can get too cold inside a boat for the bacterial process in the composter to be happy.
It is another bell curve of learning, but anything is better than wet flushing into a holding tank, pipes valves, anaerobic smells, and ignominious pumpouts at a dock. Even a potopottie has a sickly sweet bad smell.

Tony G

06-04-2010, 09:14 AM

Ebbster, mister, mister...

I was thinking of directing the fan discharge into the forward compartment that was originally a chain locker. From there the ventilator could disperse the gas outward. I guess the slight positive pressure of a computer fan would have no chance of overcoming a 10kt. breeze coming in through a dorade. But you'd probably want that one facing downwind as much as possible to draw air out. What about rough weather you ask? Hey, I dunno! That's where the self-draining holes would come in I guess. I am planning on putting a sealing hatch on the old chain locker and using it for not-often-needed-items stowage. You know, like clothes and stuff-Ha!;)

Seriously though, even if you had a good fitting hatch that wasn't even gasketed I bet the ventilator would handle the air exchange in the chainlocker just fine. Throw in a chainpipe cap and viola! Look at all that air flow! For those with original chainlockers there may be the 'concern' of the exhaust being forced down through the bilge and back up into the main cabin. I don't know how to adress that one...swim with sharks more often and it won't seem so bad?

Regarding the direct wired fan, I recall Kent had a similar, small sized fan wired into his system to keep air circulating while he was away from the boat. He was not concerned with electrical draw as he has a substantial solar panel and a charge controler. Right now I have 110watts of solar and my biggest juice draw will come through a highball glass! So a direct wired fan makes the most sense for me. You are top notch at making things work smoothly and efficiently and most importantly work for you.

I've never noticed how the two words wet and flushing sound rather icky when you put them together.

Tony G

06-08-2010, 08:56 AM

Ok, as promised, this time around with patterns!

I raised the platform in the 'berth'/closet/head/workshop another 2 1/2inches. So that's about 4 1/2 inches above the original height. I'm hoping to eek out every inch of room athwartship for sleeping. It will add some additional stowage and a smidgen of bouyancy with water tight compartments. At this level the tops of the compartments are a little more than eight inches above the scribed water line!
In photo one you can kind of get an idea of the height but I've noticed in the past my photos just don't depict proportions very well. The bulkhead for the origainal chainlocker will get pushed forward about 6 inches. Well, actually a new one will get glassed in forward and then the original will be removed.

Photo B shows where new storage will go. Because of the height of the new furniture some of the storage will actually have two layers or the ability to take a horizontal divider out and have one big storage box (where the contents can bang back and forth and wear on the surfaces, hence the compartmentalized compartments;))

The third half photo just shows the water tankage. Moved aft and considerably smaller than the plastic Cape Dory tank I just removed. The water tank will not be this tall. Only about two-thirds of this height will be tankage resulting in a little over 26 gallons. There will be shallow storage on top of it along with an inspection and clean-out port. While 26 gallons isn't much water this tank will be suplemented with another 20 gallons in a tank under the companion way.

There you have it. Slow but pretty sure:o

Tony G

06-15-2010, 07:46 AM

After several days of measuring and drawing pictures (and a visit to the chiropractor) I think I have a handle on how best to proceed with the forward 'cabin'. We'll just have to see if I overlooked some minor but critical detail that might throw up a roadblock.

First off, the original bulkhead that separated the chainlocker from the v-berth had to come out. Last week, in some delusion fantasy I thought a new bulkhead could be glued in forward of the original such that I could use the original bulkhead to attach some 'struts' or some other means of holding the new piece in just the right place making installation that much easier.... What!?! You see, that's what winter does to the brain up here. Being there was a few other spots that needed the loving attention of an angle grinder and 24grit it was as good a time as any to extricate the vintage plywood. It was not as difficult as removing the ice box but not an easy task either. After cutting through as much tabbing as possible with the 4 1/2" grinder and the sawzall as far as I could reach the bulkhead was still firmly attached to the hull via a couple of nails driven into the stringers and some of that mysterious, funky blue bondo found throughout these boats. So I made a vertical cut with the sawzall through the plywood from the chainlocker opening down to the small drain opening on the bottom of the bulkhead figuring that I would be able to gain some leverage and 'wiggle' the pieces free. Much to my horror as I finished the cut the bulkhead pulled apart about 1/8" to 3/16"! I froze thinking the bow was going to split open. No creaks, no snaps, no light peaking in from outside.

I crawled out and took a walk around the front of the trailer to see if I noticed any change or damage. Everything looked good. The single bow pad was still loose as I had left it a couple of weeks ago when we releveled her. So I concluded that it must have been some stress induced from sitting on her keel for so long. I try not to think about it much or start worrying. These hulls are tough! Not to worry.

After cleaning up the dust and debris I remembered that I had always intended to continue the stringers up to the bow like Ebb had done. So out came the grinder again to clear the way for those. Then came the final sweep-up for the day and a good washing. Man, I sure wish I had removed the chainlocker bulkhead before I started retaping the hull/deck seam. It's tons easier working up front near the stem with all that stuff out of the way.

Commander 147

06-15-2010, 08:05 AM

Tony

Never let it be said that you do anything half way.;)

It is always so much easier to get rid of anything in the way and start from scratch when doing a project like you are doing. I can't wait to see what goes back in.

ebb

06-15-2010, 10:24 AM

It's too late for lit'lgull to have her forward bulkhead repositioned.

I'm convinced NOW that I want samson posts for mooring (and maybe have the bowsprit bear against.)
It would have been real sweet to have a sturdy bulkhead right there inside where thru-deck samson-struts could be bolted to!

Not possible to imagine how any bolt-to-the-deck bollard OR stainless samson post can be installed strong enough to hang a three ton boat from in a blow.

I'll have to somehow connect the posts to the hull inside with braces and brackets or a molded in frp socket. Along with doublers under the deck, maybe have a cross beam in front of the posts.
I'll be a problem in a now really restricted area!!!

You are at square one, Tony, if you're planning a foredeck for anything but a marina tie-up!
Interested to see what you come up with.

Tony G

06-15-2010, 01:48 PM

I have about three days here where I can get some work done and then I'm away from the boat for a couple weeks. That'll be hard being she's prime for working on and I'm prime for workin'! I wanna see some progress.

It's all pretty straight forward, as far as what's going back in. No frills and a mess less than I was going to try the first time around. Striving to stick with 'form follows function' philosophy. You know-KISS ;)

I am planning for on the hook and off the grid and into some diving again. As much as I loved SCUBA we'll be leaning toward free diving out of practicality. That's how I started anyhow! And I remember having a blast doing it too!

I like the the idea of a sampson post, Ebb. But I am trying to reduce the number of things poking up through the deck. I suppose there is an easy way to keep them water tight and dry. And they sure would add to the stability of a sprit. I'm just looking to add a secure eye for a solent stay and a bit more room to stretch out if I have to take to the v-berth. Although, I really like the sprit(?)/anchor platform on them thar Nor'sea 27s. If we put a sprit on the nose I'm contemplating switching out the stem fitting for a simple strap like the backstay. What do ya think about that?

ebb

06-15-2010, 02:18 PM

Stem Strap. Yes many boats have that. Would save weight if you're going with anchor roller/channels.Remember you have to incorporate another attachment point for the foot of the sail.
Another plate.
Bingham, (the Sailor's Sketchbook pg80/81) has idea drawings of stem and double anchor roller weld ups which might be very useful for a small cruiser. Something like that would slip over the Ariel nose.
And maybe even reuse the 8" bolt for the major attachment. That's the one that goes through the top hole in the original and exits through curve of the toerail/nose. Imco a VERY strong forestay attachment method.

If your Solent is coming from a lower position on the mast but to the stemhead fitting, don't you already have a third hole in the fitting that can be used for that?

Tony G

06-16-2010, 08:40 AM

If your Solent is coming from a lower position on the mast but to the stemhead fitting, don't you already have a third hole in the fitting that can be used for that?

Our current plan is to attach the solent as close to the top of the mast as I can get without interfering with the furler. (I know the furling vs. hank on argument-but I have a new furler and new head sail cut to it so I'm going to use it.) Then put a (what do you call it?) fitting about two feet back from the stem. A line drawn through these two points would intersect a point on the sheer a few inches above the waterline . That point is about as far as I can comfortably reach over the side of the bow. So I think that would be a good place to mount a sturdy 'U' bolt or eye that an anchor chain snubber could be attacted to. The backing hardware for this snubber attachment point could serve as an attachment for even more hardware that would secure the solent's hardware to the hull as well as the deck thereby taking some of the strain off of the deck whe the solent is being used. If we add a couple of inches of teak into the mix for an anchor platform/sprit that should strengthen everything up a little more yet.

ebb

06-16-2010, 09:44 AM

GOT IT!
Actually got it backwards.
If the reason for a solent stay is because you have a permanent furler on the forestay, then in theory the solent will be used for the storm sail - hanked on.
That would mean you can put the attachment point for the solent as far forward as you need to and even get a decent sized staysail.

The attachment for a storm sail in the Ariel deck is pretty technical, I think.
If the solent is more forward then the 'U-bolt' can be backed up with a turnbuckle to a strongpoint built into the stem. I mean a turn buckle more forward would be less in the way in the chain locker.

[At one point I imagined a reverse eye in the stem, attached thru the stem with the eye inside!
Desperate measures - don't know if it is practical - but you do need imco more backup than what you can get with our composite deck and plywood.]

A Solent stay is a movable stay.
ABI is out of business and their Hyfield lever no longer available.
Johnson makes a nice backstay turnbuckle with integrated levers for tensioning that have been used for Solent stays by others.
Might be worth looking into. 5/16", $400!

Tony G

06-16-2010, 01:03 PM

wether you spell it hyfield or highfield it is high bucks and hard to find! I've run across a few used ones but they have been for a much bigger stay diameter than practical for my needs.

Some plan-B, C and D ideas include:

CapnK

06-17-2010, 06:51 AM

Instead of a Hyfield, consider perhaps a small (say 1/4"w sheaves) high-load set of blocks w/a 4 or 6-1 purchase, reeved with Amsteel or other synthetic line. Use a normal 1x19 shroud made up shorter than needed with a thimble on the low end, attach blocks with to that with a shackle, and same attachment* for them to your deck fitting. That line could even be led aft so that you could slack the solent when tacking.

Just a thought...

---------------------------------------

*...what's the strength rating on a lifeline pelican hook?

ebb

06-17-2010, 07:36 AM

Bosun;s Supply have 6" UNRATED CAST 316 pelican hooks for about $24. Bet they are chinese.
Maybe it or something more substantial could be used with a gun tackle?

Can't see having a rope tackle permanently deployed because of UV issues. But why not?
But I'd like to see the set up visavis the staysail and the gear.
IE how and where is the storm sail hanked on?
What pounds are needed to get the stay taut?

In a blow the solent also is helping to keep the mast UP.:rolleyes:
In fact that redundancy on a cruiser is it's selling point.

Storm sail should have a set of reefpoints. Correct?

Tony G

06-17-2010, 07:59 AM

Kurt, you're there!

My latest google search for solent stay brought up a page with Super Duper Joe Cooper (as I like to call him*) using a multi-purchase block system and high tec lines for both the tensioning and the stay. There was a photo of the 'stay' after some use and it looked pretty worn where the hanks had been working but Joe states that when they stress tested the line to failure it actually parted somewhere other than the worn spots. I believe it was vectran and sspectra lines they used. Now I'll probably find out in a couple of years that this sort of set-up is absolutely outstanding and dependable but right now I just worry that the lines will wearout too quickly. Although it would be easy enough to repair/replace as long as the sails or other equipment doesn't get damaged beyond feild repair.

I was going to add pictures but here is the link. www.practicallysailing.com/blog/solent-stay-offshore-sailing-rigging

I don't think a pelican hook has the strength we're looking for. Ironic isn't it as they are part of the 'life line' set-up. Figure 9.5 above is in the Pardey's Capable Cruiser 3rd ed. (diagram courtesy the www). I did buy the book and they claim it can easily be made using stainless or bronze and a bandsaw. ?Don't they realize that people like me buy their books? I'm leaning in that direction.

*Joe cooper was the 'customer rep.' that I dealt with for 113's new mainsail and foresail. He would actually check in with me to see how things were going and give me an update on sails and stuff. He was a real personable guy and has a great sense of humor to boot.

Commander227

06-17-2010, 02:54 PM

I agree with Epiphany,
We have been replacing wire standing rigging and lifelines with spectra and relatives more and more. Its cheap, incredibly strong, easy to throw in an eye splice or a bowline, you can keep a spool on board and replace anything your self on the go. There are coated varieties that are better with the UV or you can use Rob line or similar and have the spectra core and a nice UV and abrasion resistant cover.

ebb

06-18-2010, 08:29 AM

fiber (from the Dynamica site).
5/16" has a 6600# breaking load which is about equal to wire of the same dimension.
If steel wire can take 6500 50% breaking loads (....before what happens?)
Dyamica, dyneema can take 10 million cycles at the same 50% level. That's their comparison.

Very little stretch. If it breaks it won't whip like steel wire.
After two years of constant UV exposure 80% of strength is retained.

Bends recommended at least 5 Xs diameter of rope. Bends for 5/16" Dyneema should be minimum 1 1/2". Sheaves and/or thimbles. Visavis Joe Cooper's experiment.

Defender has a Samson dyneema called Am-Steel-blue for $2.09 ft.
This 5/16' rope has a 13,700# breaking strength. Just repeating the numbers.
It's a 12 strand braided line.
Defender price for 316 1/4" 1X19, 6900#BS = $3.09.

later post....
[Dyneema is seen as an all purpose polyethylene rope. Versatile, bullet proof, floats in water, 40% stronger than Kevlar.
Climbing, towing, mooring, hanging, winching, standing rigging, running rigging.
and picking up on your next post here - why not LIFELINES? Both on the stanchions and tethering a life-ring.
Wouldn't it be nice if our backup rigging is a spool of blue plastic rope that can be used for nearly everything?

Would you do the standing rigging with soft eyes?
Which begs the question, if Dyneema is sensitive to UV why not parcel (friction tape)l and serve (marline) it in the standing rig.
I'm positive galvanized wire is still parceled and served somewhere. Dyneema's downfall is everything SHARP. Serving it would stiffen and protect it.
Real Dyneema comes from Denmark or Greenville NC and is heat set and coated with polyurethane.]

Anybody care to compare wire rope VS Dyneema in terms of replacement?
Dyneema's loss of 20% strength after two years UV exposure IS SIGNIFICANT imco.
But what has happened to 316 stainless in that time period?
Is the Dyneema (as standing rigging) signicantly easier to replace??? Does the mast have to be lowered to do it?

Have to see a tutorial on replacing stainless steel wire with Dyneema rope on an Ariel/Commander.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
Dyneema and Spectra are the same, yet not the same.
google>
PDF Spectra & Plasma Ropes Introduction Puget Sound Ropes (PSR) began...
This paper will give you the lowdown on this fantastic plastic rope.

Tony G

06-18-2010, 01:15 PM

That's good stuff there, Ebb!

Well 20% is significant to me also. What about four years? I trust my ability to assemble a Norseman fitting or similar correctly. My splices? While I see them as inherently beautiful and a miraculous feat when I finally crank one out, I would not be as confident knowing my standing rigging is relying on my splices. I do like the idea of a complete standing rigging on a spool in the cockpit locker! My standing rigging was upped to 1/4" two years before I bought her and it has spent it's life indoors since then and I'll bet it has a good bit of life left in it. If it aint broken don't fix it.

I will serioulsy consider using high-tech line for tensioning the solent. Rethreading a couple of blocks every couple of years seems entirely doable for me. I mean, come on, there's only one splice to complete. :)

I would think replacing standing rigging could still be done one stay or shroud at a time. I just don't want to go up the mast when it's swinging and I can't afford to pay someone else to do it!

ebb

06-18-2010, 06:34 PM

10 characters

ebb

06-18-2010, 06:50 PM

I've always thought the skinny 3/16 wire rope littlegull came with was.... skinny enough!
I'm upweighting to 1/4".

The thing that gets me, as the host on anything sailing.com said... you could tack your genoa and have the crossing sheets melt your forestay.
Suffice to say that even UHMWPE is still a plastic
and very vulnerable to anything hot or sharp.

I feel that creep is a problem too. High static load deformation.
Instead of turnbuckles to have adjustability you have to go with a clippership inspired deadeye system using thimbles. Joe Cooper.
I feel all those turning points are not really healthy for any rope.

They say you will have to replace Dyneema standing rigging every 4 years in the tropics. Because of UV degrading that the blue polyurethane coating can't really stop.
Not what a cruiser wants to hear. But maybe some can hack that.

Somebody with a pocket knife can bring your mast down!:eek:

10 characters

Tony G

06-21-2010, 12:43 PM

Well at long last. Pretty insignificant but it is square to the centerline and plumb based on the water lines!

There is a 1/2" styro pad between the hull and the bulkhead. Standard fare here, all of the edges were sealed with two coats of epoxy. My scribe job on the top edge left a lot to be desired :o but we'll fill the gap with thickened epoxy before we tab the top to the overhead. I 'planed-out' two two inch wide bands to accept the tabbing on the aft face. One layer of stiched matting and one layer of 7 oz. glass. The new position of the bulkhead is just forward of the original, heavy tabbing layed by Pearson on the forward edge of the chainlocker. Being their tabbing added a good quarter of an inch I didn't feel the need to use roving on this side. The forward side will get the glass, matt, roving, matt lay-up to add thickness and strength to the forepeak.

That opening looks tight but I can fit through it alright. Maybe I should find a small monkey that would like to travel...artemia salinas

Tony G

07-08-2010, 01:57 PM

Once again, most of my boat work has been ordering supplies and trying to scavenge ideas. I need the input and ideas from people with regards to what works for them and what you find that turns out to be a waste of space (or time).

I like this...bin(?) behind the galley sink. Looks like a handy place to put things you don't want 'getting away' from you. Some folks have stated that hammock/nets are less than favorable. I can see their point.

I try to live by the adage, "A place for everything and everything in it's place." But maybe that doesn't mean out of site. I might have to accept that open storage and shelves may be more realistic on a small boat. It's not that I was difficult to potty train, or anything, I just feel things are more secure when enclosed and therefore afford a higher degree of safety. But then I counter that reasoning with the less ventilation and better hiding for unwanted pests...

Chime in and chuck a photo or two at the wall. Let's see what sticks.

mbd

07-09-2010, 04:36 AM

How about a midships galley with folding table? These counters even have nice curves resembling the ones you put in. However, rather than the full blown folding table, I think I'd go for a fold out counter or two, and have a portable table that could be used in the cockpit as well.
PS. Notice the compression post? Let's you pull that bulkhead out a bit. :rolleyes:

ebb

07-09-2010, 07:25 AM

That wooden spaghetti strainer is a nice touch!

Commander 147

07-09-2010, 07:48 AM

Tony

I'm with you on the bin behind the sink. I like the idea of putting things like mayo and mustard, lettuce etc. there while you are making sandwhiches where they can't escape from the "cook" when the boat heels. You could do a fold up table to the side of the sink where the sandwhices could be built and you would be close to everything you needed. And when you put all of that back in the cooler you have a place to store dirty dishes until the end of the day when they get washed and keep them out of the sink so it is still available for use.

The other thing that there never seems to be a good way of dealing with is the trash container. I am working on an idea for a trash container that is easily accessable from the cockpit but out of the way.

Tony G

07-09-2010, 08:19 AM

Mike I just knew that you could contribute a photo (or two or three, hint, hint) here. So far I see two spots for a fold-up counter that will add some work space. I used to dream of a big galley table a few folks could sit around swapping stories and ideas while eating a good meal. But these are small boats. A folding cockpit table would be great though!

Ebb, you might recognize that basket from the Scott Sprague cutter listing you brought us from yachtworld. Lots and lots of beautiful stuff there. Like all of the room I thought we had. What I wish for is Little Gull's masterfully planned and finely executed interior, but I've learned to accept that my brain pan don't work that way.

Talkin' trash with Jerry! Laura and Charlie Jones did a real nice install on their boat Tehani. They used a squared pail that was tucked into the galley cabinetry under a step. Easy to get to but otherwise out of sight. I don't think it would be easy to reach from the cockpit though. so how about a sneak peek at your idea?

There used to be roughly 50,000 photos of the Bristol Channel Cutter galley with fold-up counters but this is the only one I can find now. But here's a Falmouth Cutter galley too. Following Mike's suggestion of looking at 22 footers for ideas that could realistically fit in our hulls.

Commander 147

07-12-2010, 06:47 AM

Tony

I really like that fold up table that crosses from one side to the other. I think I'm going to use that idea on Destiny, thanks for posting that picture.

As far as the trash idea I was simply thinking of a fold up bracket that would be mounted to the inside of the bulkhead at the aft end of the cabin just inside the companionway. During the day this bracket would hold a plastic trash bag that you could easily toss things into from the cockpit. At the end of the day the trash bag is removed the bracket folded down and out of the way.

I was also thinking about your bin behind the galley sink idea and it occured to me that you could make the bin removeable and build a upper cabinet right above where it goes to store the bin when not in use. Then under the bin area you could have your trash container. The trash would stay there even when the bin is dropped in place for use. Just tossing out ideas. :-)

mbd

07-12-2010, 09:32 AM

A "For Sale" Ariel a while back had its trash in a cockpit locker, and a hole through one of the aft bulkheads to access it from the cabin...

Tony G

07-12-2010, 07:22 PM

I remember that one, Mike. If I recall correctly they also put the batteries under a setee. That one also spawned a rather heated and opinionated discussion over 'rebuild' vs. 'remodel'.

I never expected everyone to like what I've done, I just wanted to know if I've done something really stupid or potentially dangerous!

Free beer for the first one to post photos or a link to said boat!!!

CapnK

07-12-2010, 07:52 PM

A "For Sale" Ariel a while back had its trash in a cockpit locker, and a hole through one of the aft bulkheads to access it from the cabin...

That's ex-"Che", now "Mariah", Tim D's Ariel. The one where Adam (when she was "Che") put the hard dodger on her.

I had considered putting the batteries under the aft-most part of the v-berth berths, but instead now have them on the cabin sole, just aft the bulkhead opening. A box over them makes a nifty step-up spot that aids getting in and out of my raised v-berth, and there is also the benefit of their weight being closer to the boats CG.

Gimmee beer! (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1120)

mbd

07-12-2010, 08:59 PM

Hey, I wasn't at the computer! :mad:

**********

Another pic from the "ideas" folder:

Aft galley, and you could gain extra foot/storage space by making the v-berth a "shelf".

Tony G

07-13-2010, 07:32 AM

Mike, if the aft head would have somehow fit I was definately planning on adding some cubbies under the v-berth/setee forward lounge area. If the ideas had only come before the seahood and rails got added... Maybe another Ariel in the future being we sold the Ensign.

Kurt, I'll set one aside for you. As soon as you stop by and drink it I'll set another and another and another....well, you get the picture.

mbd

07-13-2010, 10:17 AM

Then there's the fold-up sink. I always thought this was a very clever and ingenious space-saving idea. Doesn't have to be in the head either, you know...

Hey, you asked for pics! :rolleyes:

Tony G

07-21-2010, 10:29 AM

That's right, Mike. We'll take photos of any boat.

Finally got to spend a day at the shop. All of this is still less than one 4 x 8 sheet of 1/4" and a ton, well, maybe not quite a ton, but a whole lot lighter than what I tore out this spring.

Gotta sand off some of that nice white bilgekote for the locker(s) drain tubes and make a clear spot for tabbing. The water tank goes in next, I believe. Then chain well divider followed by v-berth deck. I think...:confused:

I think she's ready for water!

Commander 147

07-21-2010, 10:37 AM

Dang Tony

You are moving right along with putting her back together again. What you're doing looks great. Very impressive.

Tony G

07-21-2010, 11:03 AM

Thanks, Jerry. I'm sweating bullets trying to get back on track being I wiped out one years work on her. I've been trying to swing like a five day deal of just boat work, but it somehow backfired and now I'm the only one at the store today?!?

One thing I can say is 1/4" baltic birch is plenty strong for what I'm doing. The water tank will have 1/2" fore and aft bulkheads. But after the baffles get tabbed in I'd bet you could do it with 1/4" material no problem.

ebb

07-21-2010, 12:15 PM

Keep on it.
If you are making built-in water tanks where you will use epoxy and glass to line the tank...
I would consider using plain fiberglass sheet for the baffles - no wood, even if covered.

You can make up flat sheet by laying out cloth on MYLAR film.
Douse it with epoxy, squeegy it with as many layers of cloth you want
then place another piece of mylar film on top.
Then a piece of flat plywood with some weight on top of it.
Wait til you see what you get!!! Wonderful!

Small tanks with a surge baffle supported on all sides can be fairly thin imco, like maybe 1/8".
That's what I put in mine. Have fun gluing in the top with the baffle(s) in place!
If you plan on coating the inside with a potable-water epoxy, that thin baffle will fatten up and be amazingly stiff.

Tony G

07-21-2010, 02:24 PM

Ebb, do you mean 1/8" thick baffles or 1/8" thick walls?

I have planned to use 1/2" for the fore and aft bulkheads because if you're pounding to weather or just up onto the beach I figured most of the stresses introduced by the force of the water sloshing in the tank would be in the forward direction. But I have read some claims by individuals that a couple of layers of fabric on 1/4" ply is all you need.

The NSF paint!!! Something that is more expensive than epoxy! :o

ebb

07-21-2010, 04:30 PM

Hey Tony, I do mean the thin baffle plates. If they are supported - filleted and tabbed to the inside walls of the tank they will be plenty strong. Obviously they get thicker at the walls because of the tabbing and the coved bead of gell fillet makes them even stronger. You do need to have 'relief' holes in the bafflle so that the surge is broken up but free to circulate.
Think I remember leaving the top corners open (just because it was easier to fit and tab - and slip the top of the tank (plywood covered on the inside with frp) which had a shallow groove in it to receive the top of the baffle.
I opened the center of the bottom of the baffle to allow water to drain wherever it's going - and to aid cleaning of the tank. I put access plates on either side of the baffle through the top.
Can't remember what the recommended distance between baffles or what volume of liquid needed to be controlled. Don't follow rules anyway.

It's possible that water tanks will get fouled and need cleaning, washing, or at least stirred up with a pressure hose and pumped out. Sludge lurks in corners.

FRESH WATER rots wood.
If you put plywood in there, you could be adding flavor to your water.
Remember epoxy is not entirely waterproof.

The potable water coating I used came from epoxyproducts,com. It is actually called 'tank coating' and rates in the US as OK for 10.000 gallon tanks. But it's pretty obvious other private parties use it for smaller tanks. I think that is intimated somewhere in the site literature that the limitation is a quirk of the FDA..
It is a thick white 2-part 100% solids glossy paint that is difficult to apply because it goes on so thick. Costs too much like all coatings and paints., I guess. But look it up. The company is in NH so there is S&H to pay for also.
But I thought of it as a sealer against laminating epoxy. You can't trust anybody's epoxy to be free of leaching chems.
Look at my nemesis Pest Systems (whose epoxy blushes, uses petro solvents and carcinogenic extenders like nonylphenol which might not catalyze fully when hard - and have formaldehyde in their hardeners. Why do you think I've gone nuts already?
What's NSF? Not So Fantastic?
LOL (lousy oil lamp)

Tony G

07-22-2010, 12:50 PM

I may be mistaken, but, in this case the S is for 'Stand by! Your wallet is about to be accosted.' Not too sure about the N. But the F is for the first thing out of my mouth when I saw the price. Lousy oil lamp

The forward tank measures roughly 22 inches square and the bottom follows the hull form in that area. I'm going to run the baffels in a simple 'X' shape fore and aft and athwartship. A 10" diameter inspection port and cleanout hatch will get centered on the 'X'. That way I can access each section to clean or gawd knows whatever.

True to form, I way, way over engineered the water tank at first. Fortunately common sense kicked in and now we are looking at making a tank that provides what we need not some silly contraption with a top-heavy cost to benefit ratio. Ugh!

Dang! Just about forgot. The inspection port I stole from your chain locker design. so thanks!

Tony G

07-27-2010, 08:49 AM

Got a couple of shots of some 'bote stuff' goings on.

For some reason I had all sorts of crazy ideas of how I wanted to handle the drains for the former chain locker and the new chain locker. In the end I just got some Spa-Flex tubing and glued it in place. Simple enough. I don't know what all of the confusion was about:confused:.

The forward locker drain just follows the centerline of the hull. Just aft of the water tank's forward bulkhead it veers to port and progresses relatively straight to the intersection of the hull and the top of the fiberglass 'cap' over the lead ballast.

The 'new' anchor locker drain starts just forward of the water tank's forward bulkhead in the anchor locker (duh-me...) and veers starboard reflecting the port run.

At first I was going to fillet the sides with thickened epoxy but then why waste the product. So I made some fillets from 5/8" square styrofoam. I simply hot-glued the strips snug to the PVC then sanded a taper with a sanding block loaded with 40 grit paper.

These photos are dark but you can see the runs of pipe. The anchor locker drain is under construction here and the port side forward locker drain is sheathed in 7 oz. and stitched matt. You can see the working end of the sanding block on the far left.

Tony G

07-27-2010, 09:09 AM

Late in the game I decided to divide the chain locker. First off there just isn't the need for that much room pulling single duty on a boat this small (in my totally inexperience opinion). The other side could still be used for storing additional rode and/or what not. But more importantly the divider provides nice support for the water tank's forward bulkhead. And the added surprise-the forward compartment drain makes a nice fillet! I have to add a small 'ramp' at the forward end to help the anchor rode spill but that will have to wait untill things are glued in place.

The top edeges of the 1/4" ply gets reinforced with mahogany strips with a triangular profile. The rational being the flat top provides a nice, wide surface for supporting the decking or hatch lids and the bottom has no edges to catch things on or split knuckles with.

Here's a shot of the anchor locker drain.

Tony G

07-27-2010, 09:34 AM

The water tank bulkheads drop into 'grooves' formed by triangular cleats. Of course all of the edges get sealed with two coats before assembly. And there will be plenty of thickened epoxy fillets for the bonding here for the strength. I've been reading and re-reading everything I can find on building water tanks. Turns out it's the same as building plywood aquariums:D I can do that! I have done that!

I'm really looking forward to getting the tank done.

The tank will only occupy the bottom( duh-me..)two thirds of this area. The top area will have the inspection port, the filler tube, a vent, the pick up tube and the fan and ducting for the composter.

ebb

07-27-2010, 09:46 AM

ESTA DE PELO, Senor!

Tony G

07-27-2010, 10:00 AM

On the port side in the berth/head/storage area I plan to have a couple of shelves to put totes on for storing items. That idea came from Craig Amos-thank you Craig. Being that happens on the same level as the berth decking I thought I'd add some access panels so we could have some 'deep' storage under the totes.

It's tough to see in these photos because I didn't push the 'flower' button on the camera, but, there is a 5/8" wide by 1/4" deep recess for lids to rest on-lids yet to be made.

Because the hanging locker is just forward of the main bulkhead there is only three 'bins' on the port side. The starboard side has four plus the wee-little triangular shaped spot at the very forward end. It too will be used. I have been tossing around the idea of adding horizontal dividers to the aft two bins on the starboard side just to keep things a little more organized. As a matter of fact I just decided I have to.

Tony G

07-28-2010, 07:46 AM

Here are a couple of photos taken earlier that show the 'wee-little' trianguar bins in the berth area. They look deceptively cavernous in the photos but are about 550 cubic inches in volume( 2.3 gal). The starboard side will be covered and have access through a hinged lid being that side of the cabin is a berth. The port side will be open to the berth area and will essentially be a open topped dump bin.

Commander 147

07-28-2010, 09:05 AM

Tony

It must be nice to work on a totally stripped out hull to build everything in new like you are doing. I think my biggest challenges are dealing with what is existing that I don't need to remove but need to work around.

And as expected from you it looks like you are doing very nice work there.

ebb

07-28-2010, 10:47 AM

Detect little drops here and there.
Are they drops of sweat or blood or both?:D

Tony G

07-28-2010, 10:54 AM

[QUOTE=Commander 147;21861 my biggest challenges are dealing with what is existing that I don't need to remove but need to work around.

[/QUOTE]

You got that right, brother! I didn't utilize patterns as much as I should have the first time around. Second and third generation patterns, while eating up a lot of production time, help make the final piece fit into place much nicer. And having the room to work....even if I'm going to repeat some feature already there, I'm going to rip it out first just to have the room to get it right!

Tony G

07-28-2010, 02:28 PM

Detect little drops here and there.
Are they drops of sweat or blood or both?:D

Ebb, even with muh trusty box fan I've been sweating away pounds. Down on the shop floor it's not that bad...but when you're a couple of feet below that metal roof things tend to warm up! I've got these two ice packs that came out of a shipping box that I've custom molded* to fit the bottom of my mixing cups. They are helping me out more this year than any of those winter friends that say they want to 'come help on the boat this summer'.

Jerry, I find that nothing original seemed to be in the same plane or dimension that I needed.

Tony G

07-29-2010, 01:06 PM

This goes back to the 'dashboard days'. I noticed the Hallberg-Rassy 31s get a windscreen and an instrument dash but the HR29s don't. Maybe a moulded dash would be the way to go... More to come, but first, pictures!

Tony G

08-03-2010, 07:36 AM

Enough with that dashboard crap!

we glued in the fore and aft water tank bulkheads. That involved multiple applications of thickened epoxy to build up to the desired fillet radius. It was just way too hot to mix up large enough quantities to get the job done in one pass. so I'd lay down a layer, shape it, wait a couple of hours then add another layer, and so on. In between 'sessions' I worked on various other odd jobs. Like the port locker lids and the starboard locker horizontal dividers. The later divide the aft two starboard lockers into a 10" deep compartment on top and a 'deep storage' compartment below of about equal depth but with a tapered bottom. It's also where I keep extra dust and dirt these days.;)

Tony G

08-03-2010, 07:47 AM

While far from complete, here is the tank lid. I added 12, 1/4" stainless bolts bedded in thickened epoxy to hold down the lexan inspection port. The opening is 10" in diameter and I like that! I want to be able to reach all over insde the tank once the top gets glued down. You can see where the water filler goes. The other two holes are for the vent line and up-take line.

I also put some of the basic pieces for the forward compartment hatch together. I'm gonna make a simple cam latch for it that can squeeze down a gasket. Waterproof? No. Water-resistant? Hopefully.

ebb

08-03-2010, 08:43 AM

Love those PROGRESS pictures!
More, please!

Tony G

08-03-2010, 08:55 AM

Love those PROGRESS pictures!
More, please!
More pictures? More progress?

As much as I was leaning toward a midship galley arrangement, it appears that I will keep the galley aft, allbeit reararanged. That's progress! I made a full circle! ;)

Commander227

08-04-2010, 05:36 AM

Tony,
Man, you are smokin right along!!!
Really looking good. I love all the separate compartments, It's like that thing Dr. Who has thats bigger on the inside than the outside.
You're going to able to be so organized.
Mike
C227

Tony G

08-17-2010, 07:39 AM

Sorry. No pictures of the latest work. All I got done was to sheath the inside of the water tank and underside of the tank top. Then I started rolling on layers of straight epoxy to coat all of the surfaces. Even though I was trying to do my best I still ended up with a couple of 'sags' in the final coat.

I hope to make a fiberglass sheet tomorrow morning using the technique Ebb described above. I allready have the patterns for the baffles and that should allow me to get the pieces cut out and installed this weekend. Then I can let everything 'stew' for a couple of weeks before painting and then finally sealing the top on.

We picked up some more plywood this weekend and I am excited to get started decking the forward berth area. Then I will have a surface to work off of in order to sheath the anchor locker(s) so we can check those off the list.

Tony G

08-18-2010, 11:08 AM

As if waking up to temperatures rapidly approaching the Fourties isn't depressing enough, these are the two token photos I have of what's going on. I thought it was kind of humorous when I snapped them, but in retrospect, I'm now finding it kind of disturbing. Why is progress so slow at times?

Anyways, burried under the motor and the weight and the extra pipe clamp pipes and the sheet of plywood is two layers or 7 oz. glass, two layers of stitched matting a layer of 18 oz. woven roving sandwiched in between two poly sheathed layers of formica. And a gallon of epoxy...

The other is a pile of stitched matting and woven roving waiting to be installed.

Still hoping for a five day push before it freezes.

Commander 147

08-18-2010, 11:20 AM

Dang Tony

Sounds like we need to blend your temps with mine so we can both be better off. I am really getting over 95+ degrees every single day with humidity levels between 50 and 90%. But we will will not get a break from these temps until Oct. sometime. And Novemeber is when it really starts getting nice.

Tony G

08-25-2010, 08:09 AM

The DIY fiberglass panels are cut to size and shape. They ended up being just a hair over 3/16" thick and surprisingly uniform considering the crude nature of the platens used and the clamping method. I would have prefered to vacuum bag the sheet of stock, and if my 5' x 5' x 3/4" piece of laminated glass hadn't mysteriously disappeared I would have. But that's another story for some other time...

Here are a couple of photos showing what the pieces look like in place. If somebody sees me doing something wrong or otherwise stupid don't hesitate to let me know!

All four chambers communicate on the bottom via openings. And the semi-circle cut-out(s) on the top, where the panels meet, will allow for 'breathing' between the chambers as the water level in the tank varies with boat motion. I had been vasilating as to wether holes were needed mid-panel but after looking through a reference manual we use at work I am confident it will work as planned.

You can see there is easy access to all four corners of the tank and the deepest 'sump' area is not more than arm's length away.

I hope to get the panels glued in this weekend and fashion a nice, fat fillet on the top edge to tie the top, walls and baffles together as one when we lay the final beads.

ebb

08-25-2010, 09:29 AM

Tony,
Great solution to a baffling problem!
Nice work, nice frp sheet work!
Easy, but expensive, huh?:cool:

Tony G

08-26-2010, 07:38 AM

Thanks, Ebb. When I looked at McMaster-Carr I thought the sheets seemed kind of expensive once shipping was factored in. But I had all the supplies on hand (minus my sheet of glass:( )so why not just make it myself? Capt. Kurt said once, a long, long time ago, just use cheapo polyester to make sheets out of. But being this was for the water tank I figured I'd keep it all epoxy as everything I've read had refered to epoxy. My bad on the resin amount though. It was only one half of a gallon....

I glued in the baffles last night with some big fillets so I'm curious to see how stiff everything became once the epoxy cured. Next up is some kind of 'fillet forming jig' to thicken up the top edges where they'll meet the tank top proper. This ought to be amusing!

Tony G

08-30-2010, 06:49 AM

Here are a couple of photos of a simple little jig I put together to help make some wide fillets on the top edge of the baffles. There is now a full one inch wide pad to bond the baffles and the top panel together with.

Commander 147

08-30-2010, 06:57 AM

Very creative Tony!!!!

And very nice work. I'm always impressed by the abilities of the people on this forum.

ebb

08-30-2010, 08:07 AM

WOW

Nice work goes into that jig. Tony - and no surprises later when you have to reach in there to clean the tank out.

In fact your design makes it easy to pull maintenance on that nice s m o o t h interior
without any surprises in the overhead fillet work that can leave snags and hollows and ridges because it's almost impossible to lay in a wet cove unseen and upside down.

Great solution!:cool:

Tony G

09-01-2010, 02:54 PM

First time we ever see a filleting jig?

Au contraire, sir! Stolen from YOU.

EBB's PHOTO GALLERY, post number 170, photo #2. Ha! Or should I say, "Thank you"?

ebb

09-02-2010, 07:49 AM

Don't think so, man.
In that pic you see a single piece jig frame laid on top of the up stuff.
Had to reach into the tank and do the filleting upside down - and essentially unseen.

It worked out OK but I didn't end up with the beauteous fillets you have here, post #434.
Had many filmy extensions of epoxy that had to be sanded back to the cove after the jig was removed.
Told self nobody would ever see the sloppy work!

The problem really is how do you get the gel into the corners you want filleted.
My method after epoxy priming and wiping dry the corners was to use the 2" brush
and dab gobs of gel directly into the corners. Precise method! Then use the filleting spatula to smooth in a cove.
Messy.
The trick was to custom each plastic former, cove maker, to the space the cove former had to run in.
I use the pliable green spreaders most suppliers have now. - cut to fit, including 'sharpening' the rounded 'finger' The idea is to scrape clean the sides as you press in a decent cove.

In the pic at post 170, the cove along the hull had a custom spreader of less than a right angle because it had to ride along the hull, which tilts inward.
Mini bulkhead/baffles across the tank used a right angle cove maker.
Custom cove makers that bear on both flats of the corner almost eliminate clean up. Otherwise you probably leave behind a hard ridge of material you didn't pull into the corner.

But making sure you also get a completely filled-in cove is a problem.
This, Tony, you solved with your jig what allows making fillets from the GRAVITY side,
the TOP. In plein sight.
These fillets spanning the top, are put there so that the lid has plenty of surface to be glued to.
In case somebody wants to know. After you butter up the lid and get it in place, it's so easy to reach in the access hole to wipe off the squeeze out with an alcohol damp rag.
Any gallon of liquid will be proud to splash against what you are creating inside your tank. Huzzah!

But then what are you using to seal the tank?

Tony G

09-02-2010, 12:02 PM

Well see, Ebb, you're a craftsman. I'm inherently lazy and unfortunately forced to work.:D

The bilge is a whole other can of worms. Part of me says leave it. But the lazy part of me says there is too much wasted space down there the way I have it set up now. Luckily I have given up on the sealed battry/sealed box idea... I'm embarressed just admitting I was thinking in that direction. We are still tossing around the idea of adding tankage in the bilge and your job is the impetus for the act. But then I think maybe just partitioned storage for heavy dry goods like cans and wine. (And, oh yeah, wine too. Did I forget to mention wine?) Seriously though, there are just too many ideas to implement. So I try to run everything through the mill a couple of times to reduce it down. You know, simplify...KISS. What has worked best for me so far is to lag behind you and some of the other members here and just steal ideas.:cool:

I had planned to seal the top of the tank with good old fashoined epoxy. If I really felt the need to I could paint over the seams once the top finally cured. I don't think that will be necessary though. Most of the strength holding the top piece on will actually be on top of the top. Some more of the triangular cleats along with thickened epoxy and fabric willhold things down and contain any stray water from the filling process. Mind you, this is all in theory. Should I even mention that one point in time I actually thought about sealing the top down with silicon. HA!

Tony G

09-02-2010, 12:06 PM

But then what are you using to seal the tank?

Oh. Did you mean seal as in put the top on or seal as in coat the epoxy? I bought some of the Epoxy Products tank coating NSFin' what the... paint. Lousy oil lamp.

ebb

09-03-2010, 07:50 AM

Some will say that it is not a bad idea to have an actual bilge in the Ariel.

If you have removed and cleaned out the old Pearson paint then you can imco just seal the area with epoxy and come back to it later.
You can put in the sole easy to take off.
So if you have to alter the bilge you won't have to grind on it.

Tony G

09-10-2010, 08:56 AM

If you have removed and cleaned out the old Pearson paint then you can imco just seal the area with epoxy and come back to it later.
I don't remember any paint down there... My main pain about the cabin sole is I glued those spiffy timbers I made to the hull with 3M 5200. Then I glued the sole to them with more 5200. I might try the guitar string method to slice the adhesive. I don't really want to buy another toxic product designed to soften the 5200. What would it be called? 6300? ;)

Tony G

02-22-2011, 06:15 PM

Well it's getting to be that time of year again. I stole away for a few hours at the shop today and actually did something. We found an electric heater this last weekend on sale for a few peanuts, a couple of furs and a flint so I bit. It's only a 5kW unit so it's not going to beat back the ravages of winter but it will take the edge off once the days start getting a little warmer. Honestly, it's an over glorified hair dryer, but, it's as realistic as one can get for the task. I mean-there is only so much you can do to stave off sub-zero temperatures aside from dumping a grand into a heating system. And that is something I will not do.

So, armed with the new heat, new workshop and four layers of clothing-(R.I.P. nude honky workshop) I set forth to organize this cuby into a workspace. First up is a miter saw station and router table combo. I know a lot of people like to mount their router in a table saw wing but I see a lot of long pieces needing shaping in my future so it seemed to make more sense to drop it into the miter saw bench. I'm striving to keep things simple here but I need everything and a good deal of time and money have to go into outfitting a modest shop. Everything. Tables, ladders, etc., etc.. Even with heat it's still way too cold to glue anything so I can only get so far for now. I'm hoping to get things organized and in working order so I can get a jump on boat work this year. This year's goal is 'hands-on' before mid-April. I promise we'll post some pictures as things come together. The new camera is worth more than I am right now and I don't think I can be responsible for it's safe keeping with all the hub-bub going on at the shop as I'm way out of practice.

Cheers!

mbd

02-22-2011, 07:18 PM

Glad to hear you're getting back into the swing of things. It's guys like you who inspire guys like me. Feel free to start posting pics too, cause you know we love 'em! ;)

Tony G

10-22-2011, 06:10 PM

There is some really beautiful and inspiring work being done by a lot of other captains out there. Though I haven't posted much lately I have been watching and waiting. I have been focusing my energy on a new job and moving (and consequently, down sizing) again. This last week we were caught up enough that in a 'spur of the moment' I put in for a couple of days off. I knew that staging would be ncessary sooner or later and the oportunity presented itself via odd sized pallets in the warehouse. You know what they say,"One man's trash is another man's treasure." So we have staging now. Crude looking but suprisingly stable. I added a layer of cardboard to brige the gaps in the decking. Its hard to believe but a single layer of cardboard adds a little security under foot too.

This shop that once seemed as large as a dance hall is filling in fast. It's getting hard to spot the 30 foot long, bright white tailer in some of these photos!

Tony G

10-22-2011, 06:37 PM

During the cold winter months I had to build, and/or rebuild, a couple of tools.

Because of space restrictions we needed to move the table saw to the side of the outfeed table if we were going to cut any stock over six foot long. My old saw stand, while sufficient in the old shop, didn't lend itself well to moving from one position to another. So we had to build a new table saw stand. I still need to finish the stand with some paint and hooks to hold blades and throat plates on the slide outs.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 06:44 PM

The outfeed table didn't fit through the door of my old shop so we cut the legs off! So they had to be reattached. That was a rebuild. Also because of space constraints, more than a foot had to be cut off of the length. I just added plastic around the bottom this weekend in an effort to keep vast amounts of saw dust from settling on the tools stored under the work top.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 07:03 PM

Until the mahogany rails and rub-rails go on the boat there is a need to store the 14'-6" lengths somewhere, somehow. So I decided to make an extra long miter saw table with storage below it. The fences are removable, and, the whole thing separates into two 24" x 72" tables and the 24" spanner that the saw is mounted to. It seemed like a good spot for a router insert as well being most pieces I shape are either lengthy or else small enough to fit on a 24" wide table. There is a separate fence for the router.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 07:14 PM

I never would have thought of doing this mod, but, I saw a picture of someone else's project that used a stock craftsman tablesaw stand and I just happened to have one lying about. Besides, the drill press comes with a dangerously small bed. The block under the drill bit can be lifted out and replaced when it gets too chewed up. Or you can put in a custom block if you have chucked a sanding drum.

Instead of "T" track I used 3/4" x 1/2" channel to add a fence and/or hold downs.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 07:33 PM

There are some things that aren't worth the effort to build if you can find something that is close to what you need. This work bench is a 24" x 48" shelving unit split in half (height wise) and mounted side-by-side. I added a 3/4" thick work top and the 48" x 96" peg board to the back. In hindsight I wish I had spent the extra $12 and bougt 1/4" peg board as the hooks are continuously falling out whenever I grab a tool. I've tried bending them to hold tighter, but, little improvment. Crud.

I added a 2 x 2 in one corner to hold speed clamps and another to the other end of the top to hold the pipe clamps.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 07:44 PM

And here's another thing that was cheaper to buy and modify rather than build. It is a direct result of down-sizing. All of this stuff used to be at home in a back room. No more back room.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 08:27 PM

But this is a boat site, isn't it? So where are we at with that?

I am still freaking out about the mast beam. I just can't shake the paranoia of it coming apart because I glued it with titebond II. I could 'fix' it into place like Ebb did, and, that is the most favourable route as of yet. Tearing it out to relaminate will be destructive to say the least. No way around that as it is epoxied in there pretty good. Further more, if it comes out I have seriously entertained the idea of leaving it out and adding a compression post and bulkhead much like a Cape Dory 26. That would aleviate the caving in but necessitate hacking out my hanging locker and a good deal of the two level storage lockers I last added to the forecabin. Who knows, maybe we don't really need a hanging locker. I have to really think about this one before I tear anything out. But sometimes the quickest, most direct route forward starts with a step backwards.. Arrrrgh!!

So let's focus on the stuff we know is going to happen. We are going to add a solent stay to the mast and that is going to mean adding an attachment point on deck. That will get tied into the point on the shear of the bow above the waterline where the support for the bow sprit termnates. Also configured into this assembly is an attachment point for an anchor snubber.

A bow sprit and achor roller(s) is highly desired here. Nothing too fancy. Just some wood and a tack for a cruising asymetrical.

A sacraficial mahogany rub-rail capped with the original stainless hardware and a toe rail. The toe rail will not be as attractive as Ebb's handiwork. I'm thinking utilitarian for safety purposes largely.

Over time I have bought oodles an oodles of parts for a soft dodger and bimini. I really think on small boats like ours you need to make topsides another room as often as possible. With a addition of screens and leeclothes you got a split-level condo!

Here is the basic design of the toe rail profile I am adopting. I want to separate the toe rail and rub rail with a wide cove stripe that contrasts the hull color.

Tony G

10-22-2011, 08:36 PM

That is about all I've got for tonight other than these hangers we made for the mast. That was a real joy to place by myself given I don't have a ladder in the shop yet...

I am open to suggestions regarding the mast beam and anything else you might throw my way. Cheers to all of you and it feels good to finally do something boat related!

mbd

10-23-2011, 05:15 AM

There is some really beautiful and inspiring work being done by a lot of other captains out there....
And you're tops among them! LOVE toe rail and the staging - you even used it for the ladder!!! Hang in there Tony, crystal blue water and white sands await...

Glad you're posting progress again.

Commander227

10-23-2011, 05:19 AM

Tony,
What a work space you've created! A great place to hang out through the winter months.

Commander 147

10-23-2011, 05:47 AM

Tony

It's really good to see you are getting back to it. It is amazing how much having to relocate from one shop area to another can set back a project and all of the things it can effect (like your tablesaw out feed table for instance). When I look at how you have set up your work area I see a lot of similarities to the way I have either done things in the past or do them currently. And even though this is a boat site it is nice occasionally to see the shops behind the scenes that help to create these restored small yachts. As a matter of fact we should start a thread on workshops that those of us here use to do this work. It could be another way of helping each other to see ways of handling things during the process of restoring these fine boats. Before the economy dived I almost built a new shop for myself and I would have had all the delays you experienced.

As far as your mast beam dilemma here is my take as a fellow wood worker that has used Titebond II on a lot of projects.

First you need to look at it and decide if ripping things out now and replacing them would be significantly easier than it would sometime down the road. If it would be a similar amount of work either now or later then my vote is later (and maybe never). Titebond II forms a bond (especially in the large surface areas in your situation) that is most of the time stronger than the wood itself. It has been used in many structural applications in home building where it helps to support roof structures and never failed unless it was an obviously poor design in the first place and then it was not the fault of the glue. Your biggest concern should be keeping it dry. If you meticulously maintain the bedding under the mast step and make sure you have no leaks there I seriously doubt your mast beam will ever fail as a result of the glue. And if it does fail I doubt it will happen in one fell swoop. I would be surprised if you did not see some tell tail signs of a problem prior to an actual failure. And if you saw those signs then is when I would quit sailing her until I resolved the situation. That's my take and what I would do in your situation for what it is worth. Of course you mileage may vary. :-)

I really look forward to watching your continued progress as you get back to work on her.

ebb

10-23-2011, 07:02 AM

Tony,
Must feel so good to get the workspace transformed into a working space.

I'm envious. There is nothing better than an organized workshop with all tools, floor tools especially, close to hand. Close to the boat.
Of course now you won't have any excuses!:D

In the 'old' days when I ran the shop on this estate.... there is now an upgraded, upscaled, nose in the air, shoparoony here you won't believe. I don't go in there much to work any more.

.....but in those days I had a shopvac that was a 55gal cardboard drum on wheels with a big motor on top and a few custom lengths of hose. I'd take it to the tablesaw when needed, wherever. It had an out hose (that slowed the suction on the other side a lot) that I could lead the exhaust, which had dust in it, outside. This was before HEPA filters. What it had was capacity. A single job with a jointer, planer, tablesaw can choke the small vac. Emptying a vac is a universally hated task, so capacity stretched those episodes. It helped make a dust controlled (vs dust free) shop. Rigid Vacs arer OK and affordable, I don't know thieir micro dust collecting capabilities, but you have a problem in an enclosed space.
I'm one that hates wearing filters.

The old ebb shop had one wall cabinet that was constructed to be dust free. It is still there, acrylic doors, magnetic catches and foam weather stripping. In those days it housed the music system. Nowadays you can tune in a source from the computer that plays your exact taste without messing with dvds. So its use in a normal shop can be for cups, utensils, the computer, whatever wants NO dust. Water boiler, Coffee maker, snacks? The cupboard was installed right at the entrance to the shop - less dust collected there.

However the greatest asset a well run shop can have is its "moaning chair".
The term comes from wood boat days, I think the Atkins, father and son, stole the term from one of their customers. It's a place to sit and contemplate the project, what you are going to leave and what you have to rip out!
You take a break, relax with a pal, have lunch, a beer, or a fresh cup of coffee and plan the next step. And it's near the heater.

Hope you've got good ventilation!
ONWARD!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________
Tony and Jerry are refering to aliphatic glue being used in a boat.
Yellow glues get cautioned in laminations because they (or actually the wood) can creep in a moist environment.
How to fix or immobilize something like a laminated beam is a problem.
Prebent laminations where you prebend the pieces in a stack before gluing is what we should do.
My epoxy laminate oak beam in A338 was put together under tension. Not smart on many levels, invented a system I thought would work and it didn't - and I also wasn't going to rip it out!!!
It is smarter to use a glue that likes pressure, like aliphatic glues. My choice in the Franklin glues is TiteBond III, which is sold as water resistant/ water proof.
Before installing my mast beam I should have bolted it together, thru the cured and shaped piece.
In theory, we can stop creep by doweling. Drilling perpendicular 1/2" holes vertically thru the piece and knocking in 1/2 dowels of the same material the beam is glued up with. The perpendicular dowels will be at different angles with each other spaced along the arch. This imco creates a pretty good lock, and the laminations theorectically won't move. But wood moves anyway. So anything that can happen will happen. Poor Ebb had to bolt his thru the cabin deck with bronze. Rediculous in a way! Now, in theory, the beam is encapsulated with epoxy sealer, paint, etc. to keep moisture at bay.
But I'll always wish I did it right in the first place. 'It's all in how you go from one mistake to your next mistake.'

Tony G

10-23-2011, 07:57 AM

Hang in there Tony, crystal blue water and white sands await...

Glad you're posting progress again. Thanks, Mike. It's the thoughts of blue water and white sands that keep me moving. I like pelicans too. I always know I'm on vacation when a see a pelican giving me that, "Damned yankee", look.

Mike M., you are only a few hours away! I could use your input and experience! I know I wanted to head your way this past summer but, work being work, I ended up..working. Next year will be much smoother sailing for me. The guy we rent this space fom rescinded his "no flame" policy for my unit just because the electric heater takes so long to heat the space. So we're going to add a LPG unit to quick heat the air and rely on the electric to maintain the temperature. My only concern is we sealed the space too well so a CO2 alarm will be mandatory.

Jerry, Thanks for the real world input. I'd like to believe this boat would never go under the knife again in my lifetime. Wether its now or later, removing the mast beam will be a major project. The mast beam is epoxied to the cabin top and epoxied and screwed to the main bukhead. The support beams are epoxied to the mast beam and epoxied and screwed to the main bulkhead. Removing it is going to result in a lot of 'collateral damage'. That is why I would do a drastic deviation from the current layout if I had to remove it.

A shop thread would be cool! Actually, a method and jig page would be a HUGE time saver for me. A good deal of time is spent sitting there, brow scrunched, staring off into the distance saying, "How the #&!! am I going to do that?!"

Ebb, You are right. This space does need an area to just sit and converse or take five. I'm always running against the clock trying to get things done in the little slice of time I've been allowed. Ventilation, no. Resperators, yes. I know, I know. This is big problem we run into starting about this time of the year when we habitually start closing doors and windows. My old shop(s) were so leaky I couldn't keep the snow or water out! So I've been thinking about adding a canvas based, bellows-like contraption to the walk through door that will allow for ar exchange without significant heat lose. I have thought about a shop-vac dust collector that exhausts outside and would passively pull fresh air in through some sort of heat exchanger or recapturing thingamagig. If a guy could just find the right demolition site where they're thowing away copper base board radiators. I could see a route of parallel pipes against the ceiling bringing fesh air in... I dunno. Hopefully we're a few weeks:(away from that.

Tony G

10-23-2011, 04:33 PM

I was down at the shop today clearing up a 'furniture malfunction'. It didn't take long before I had lost all focus on that job and climbed aboard 113 to think. I have been trying to position the engel refer so it will fit the proposed galley lay out and still be able open it all the way without interfering with, or, being interfered with by something else.

It has been so long since I purchased the engel but I believe it is a 35. I climbed out of the boat and turned my attention to the refer itself. I started tossing around different ideas. It dawned on me that if the top was hinged on the long edge like a typical cooler that would help it fit my plan a little better. I unscrewed the hinges and played around for a while with the idea of moving them to the side noting ranges and measurments. I made a cardboard two dimensional model to try a few ideas on board. This configuration work much better but not quite there yet.

down on the shop floor, at the refer, I began working backwards from what I wanted to what I had. The opening top is roughly 14" x 19". If I had an opening in the neighborhood of 14 inches square that would be just about ideal. So I though,"Why not build a new top?" After closer examination I noted the top hatch on this engel is 2" thick, but due to the shape of the moulded plastic liner on the inside there is only 1.25" of thickness. If you account for the thickness of the metal outer skin and the plastic inner skin they would be hard pressed to get anything more than an inch of insulation in the hatch!

However, if I went with a smaller 14" square top I would have to deal with the inconvenience of reaching under 5.25" of lid to fully stock the refer. From what I've seen elsewhere most ice boxes have at least that much of an overhang around the loading top. I think I could fab a 2 inch thick, hinged, gasketed top for the engel. Now I know what this does to the warranty and I certainly don't intend to drill any new holes in the existing chassis. Instead I thought about using high strength adhesives to attach the necessary hardware. A sliding tray built into the galley top will go over the top of the refer and keep it sealed (mostly) in the event of an inversion.

So what do you all think? Is this a crazy idea?

Also, for those of you that have an engel. I noticed toay that the unit has a sticker on it that saskeep 2" of clearance around it while in operation. Does that pertain to the compressor end that has the venting? I am assuming that is what they are concerned with. I had intended all along to place the unit in a cocoon of additional insulation minus the vented end, of course. Do the units have warm spots elsewhere?

Ariel 109

10-24-2011, 03:00 AM

Nice work shop Tony. Looks like you've created just the environment you need the get your Ariel finished.

I'm with Jerry on the the Titebond 2 question. Since A-113 isn't a submarine and immersion in boiling water unlikely, I think you have nothing to worry about. In the old days they used casein glue, from cows milk, to put together structural wooden parts from sailboat masts to aircraft, the de Havilland Mosquito. Titebond 2 has got to be way stronger and more durable than those old casein glues.

ebb

10-24-2011, 09:09 AM

Ah yes, took the garbage out.

Tony G

10-24-2011, 07:39 PM

That's exactly what I was thinking today! Who needs a hinge if the refer is built in? Most ice boxes only have a hinge so you can open a smaller hatch (say half of the whole lid) to grab things versus popping open the entire top when you don't really need to. Granted the big opening is necessary for loading block ice but we're making 'electric' ice here with the engels.

As far as what I think of the engel.... It's a great idea. I have never even plugged it in to see if it works! I will one of these days, I suppose. Just out of curiosity I looked at their web site recently to see if there was anything new as far as developments thinking this thing might be outdated by the time I fire it up. High carumba! I payed about $600 and choked a little but rationalized it away with time. Current pricing would make me hesitate to pull the trigger but you said it, the price we pay for a coldie!

Tony G

10-29-2011, 10:34 AM

Hopefully this weekend will find me squeezing into the space where 113's refer will reside with a new, modified "mock up" in hand. I'm finding our slack bilge to be the common culprit when it comes to reconfiguring our layout. Wether it be an aft head compartment or a low profile galley there is just less room than I think. Oh well, perseverance should pay off eventually.

This is what I'm hoping to achieve, but, I will accept less...By the way, this is a photo of a Dana 24!!!

Tony G

10-30-2011, 09:58 AM

A while back (page 26) in this thread we were talking about different ways to tension a solent stay and yet have the capability to move it out of the way when not needed. Cap'n K suggested using some blocks and high strength line. Great idea! And somewhere "out there" it was happening.

I grabbed this photo the other day when the above "refer madness" was found. It comes from the same Dana 24. Is he going to donate that anchor?!?

Tony G

11-05-2011, 04:40 PM

Well "they" started talking about snow again this last week. Gawd! I hate it when they do that! Some friends are down in Key West for MOTM and I'm out buying another heater for the shop. It really all started with buying some replacement blades for the ocillating mutifunction tool and then I saw those heaters staring at me from down the aisle a ways. I'm getting impatient and it seems there's just too much to be done to take another winter off, so we gotta have heat. I'll post a heater action photo but hopefully that won't be for some time yet. ;)

This is kind of lame but it was the impetus for me heading out to buy more OMT blades. 796679677968
It's time for the interim galley and salon to come out. What goes back in will have signficantly more consideration for the refer unit. Well, the working half of the refer that is. I'm going to try to design a work surface/chart table that incorporates a home made lid that pulls double, maybe triple duty. It is a small craft after all. So we cobbled together this life size model to move around in the mock-ups.

The dotted plus the solid diagonal lines are the factory hinged lid and the solid diagonal lines indicate the 14" x 14" lid that I think will suffice for stocking and retrieving goods from the refer.

ebb

11-06-2011, 10:00 AM

OK Tony, you pushed and I ordered the Engel. Parts of it are arriving, the blanket and the mounting plate in separate cartons look like they came round the horn.
So I haven't got the fridge here yet....to see what alterations could be done to the lid.
I will also have to do something - my install has even less top opening than you have.
First, immediate solution is to remove the hinges.
But accessing that way means dealing with a big chunk of hard slippery plastic.

So: instead of a hard top, why not consider a soft top? One that replaces in form the supplied lid.
There is an expensive but very nice looking/feeling polyethylene CLOSED CELL foam called Minicel. No smell. Non toxic (no cfc or hydrocarbon blowing agents) - impervious to mold and bacteria - and can be found in 'skinned' versions. This is the foam used in athletic equipment, knee pads, seats. Kyackers use it and expertise and ideas to be found on their DIY sites.

Could do a slicedbread design with separate pieces side by side and contact cement or MarineGoop webbing material OR vinyl upholstery material, OR Sunbrella, on top that will stiffen/unitize the pieces into a bendy substitute lid. Also keep water from entering.

In bun form Minicel foam can be shaped - so if there is a rabbet jog needed around the edge, that can be done.
Different densities make for stiffer foam that can span the fridge opening without sag. Research.

OR the foam lid can just be a single piece of whatever thickness required. Could even be a little thicker I'd guess. You know, so the champagne cork will be accommodated in a dimple with the lid shut. Would be easy to remove, and a nicer thing to have floating around the cabin.

California is beginning its winter rain season with near freezing temps at night. They say global warming will bring on a new ice age. Has to do with ocean currents changing their customary routes!

Tony G

11-06-2011, 10:24 AM

That's thinking outside the box, Ebb. So you're talking about mixing a roll-top desk, Roman shade and a roll-up garage door? Why the heck not?! It surely will be as insulated as the original hinged hatch is and far more "Ebb friendly" for your install. It's not like you're going to be standing there with the lid rolled open staring into the fridge wondering how old that slice of cheescake is. Go for it, man!

I just spent the morning cutting out our galley and salon. Carried a lot of weight off the boat again...reminiscent of a couple of years ago when I cleaned out the forward compartment. Looking forward to redesigning it and putting it back together(again). The shining star was the ocillating multi-tool. Virtually no dust or odor at all. If I had hooked up the shop-vac I would have been spoiled rotten!

Tony G

11-08-2011, 06:51 PM

Spent the day in Southern MN at a meeting grinding out details of the upcoming season with 9 other people. Got home and could not wait for the therapeutic release of clearing out the rest of the salon pieces. I don't have my small scale anymore but I think I will haul this to work this weekend to weigh it.

Tony G

11-08-2011, 07:24 PM

Once again I was tickled with the ocillating multi-tool's ability to cut through tabbing without kicking up a cloud of dust or choking fumes.

I had used hot glue to tack some things in place before fixing them "permanently" with epoxy and cloth. After cutting the tabbing and extracting the baltic birch plywood, I switched to a scraping blade and removed nearly all of the hot glue reminants left behind. I say nearly all because there is undoubtedly some hot glue left in the deep weave "imprints" of the roving. How am I going to remove that if need be? Heat gun and brass brush? We'll have plenty of time to figure that one out. It is going to be way too cold to epoxy anything back in for about 6 months. This will give me some time to play around with cardboard models and mock-ups.

Gotta do this over only miniaturized this time:confused:

Tony G

11-08-2011, 07:38 PM

And speaking of models. Here's my old friend "Bud". Get it:D? Bud? Oh, well...

Leaning towards a u-shaped galley again if we keep it an aft galley. Otherwise we'd go for a port side galley. The reason being, and I just read this the other night, if you go below to fix a quick bite you can heave-to on a starboard tack making you the "stand on" boat and your galley will be down hill from you giving you another inch of safety.

This spot for the refer will give plenty of room for another 2"+ of surrounding insulation and a good 2"-3" thick top yet still have enough clearance to open it.

Commander 147

11-09-2011, 04:12 AM

Tony

You are a better man than me. After going through the work to rebuild my interior I don't think I would have it in me to tear it all out and start over again. Now I have redone my design drawings several times and made individual pieces multiple times to get them right, but to do the extensive rebuild you are doing is more than I would be able to talk myself into.

That being said it looks like that is a really good location for the refer. I hope it all comes together exactly like you want it to this time.

Commander227

11-09-2011, 04:58 AM

I agree with Jerry. Wow that must have stung to pull all that out. Once I make a decision to do something a certain way it stubbornly remains the absolute best or only way...forever! (I also never had the patience for "test fitting" and dry layups)
Beat it fo fit and paint it to match is my motto. You just have to discipline yourself to never look back. It also helps if you can refrain from looking too far forward as well.
I don't know maybe with enough head scratching you'll figure out the Tardis puzzle (Dr. Who reference. You know... Bigger on the inside than the outside). Keep the progress rolling Tony, Soon you'll be throwing a dart at a map.
Mike

ebb

11-09-2011, 10:49 AM

Replacement HINGES AVAILABLE.
The two lid hinges on the 27 are ALREADY 'take-apart' because one leaf attaches to the box and its one leaf buddy attaches to the lid.
The pin is loose in one and attacht to the other. They are handed left and right so the lid is not removable. Engel has the pintel leafs screwed to the lid.
A couple of gudgeons & pintels.
Assume that similar hinges are available for the 35.
Called up ENGEL in Florida (1-561-743-7419) and Nancy set me up with a spare set.
Will change-out the hinges and make both left/left so when the lid is lifted just a bit the lid will shift left and come free.
Of course the hinges can be reattached so the lid slides off right.

Thing is, this alteration isn't a one way street - can always go back to what it was.

Could just reverse 180 one of the hinges,
but having anextra set, they can be swapped around so that both pintel leafs attach to the box,
The lid can have the gudgeons and be right or left side removable. How easy is that?
Can't be the first fool that has wanted to do something like this - Engel makes it too easy.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
later EDIT: Hinge arrives. Assumed I paid for a pair, but only one in the pkg. One was enough!
Took 6 minutes to change-out and turn around leafs. Leafs are interchangable. This fridge will be mounted athwartship under the counter, in front of and next to the batteries which are under the cockpit. Looking down on plan view it would show the fridge under the bridgedeck.
Facing the cockpit the lid will open on the left side - when lifted will slide forward. Not sure what final access there will be directly thru the top.
BUT the lid has to be tilted up barely two inches to slide off the pins which are on the case. And slid back home the catch snaps the lid down for an original tight seal.
yessireebob!

Tony G

11-12-2011, 03:09 PM

Started putzing around with some ideas and cardboard models. To make better use of the bilge and to get rid of the ridiculously heavy 3/4" thick sub sole we had to begin with a little destruction. If you're only destroyin things you made yourself the whole karma balance should be unaffected, right? So this is what I accomplished. We cut through the 5200 with, what else but the OMT. Wasn't easy as pie (or pi) and involved using a mallet and beefy screw driver and a good deal of prying-Tenacious...79787979

If I was a better man I think I would have done it right the first time:o

I will use 1/2" baltic birch for a sub sole this time around. Those support timbers are going to come out and a new set will be made. We're going to drop the works 3/4", not that it will give me standing head room but it will be a full inch lower than where we were headed. I'm going to widen the access to the bilge too. There is just too much storage potential there to ignore, or, not give due consideration to.

Tony G

11-14-2011, 07:04 PM

Well it was bound to happen sooner or later. Today we got big, BIG, wet snow flakes that turned everything outside white in about 10 minutes. Having said that, here are the actions shots I hoped I would not have to post for some time yet...

798579867987

I think tiki's face says it all-disgusted.

Tony G

11-14-2011, 07:29 PM

Last time around we went with some curvey furniture. The jig we made back then (was really crude) used a 4" PVC pipe as the mold to form the radius. Four inch pipe has an outside diameter of 4 1/2" and we wrapped 1/2" of wood around it so we ended up with a pretty fat corner. Nice on the knees but I felt it was a bit too much for a small boat.

I liked the feel and the looks of a 2" radius bend. To get that we switched to a 3" PVC pipe which has the outside diameter of 3 1/2". Being I've dropped back on the thickness of the plywood I'm using from 1/2" to 1/4" baltic birch, we end up with the 2" radius I desired.

I still got to use the 4" PVC. I just built a little jig that allowed me to run it over the table saw and cut out 1/4th of the wall lengthwise. The black UHMW stock I had lying around just happened to be 1/4" thick same as the PVC pipe wall so it transitioned perfectly.

With the old jig the 3mm plys were allowed to run wild when I glued them up with the intention of trimming everything "square" based on the radiused corner. That ended up being a giant PIA. So this time around I added a lengthwise guide along the bottom edge and some alignment tabs on the end.

Tony G

11-14-2011, 07:54 PM

What's the most important tool in the shop? DeWalt? Craftsman? Freud? Nope Black and Decker...steam iron. Yeah. Tool of the hour tonight.

Multiple individual plys in a laminated curve add stability. Even though there are 3 plys in the 3mm plywood we are using there are actually only two indiviual plys in our new curves. While it seems it would spring back less because it required less force to pull the wood into the form it will actually end up being a less stable laminated piece. So I decided to pre-bend the plywood before gluing them together. That should remove much, if not all of the springback.

I don't have a steam box. Fortunately a rag, a little water and the added persuation of a steam iron soften the resistance of the plywood to being pulled into the form.

larry

11-15-2011, 10:01 AM

Love the bright work!

Commander 147

11-15-2011, 12:23 PM

Tony

I'm not sure I'm following you so let me see if I have this right.... you are prebending 2 pieces of 1/4" baltic birch plywood prior to gluing the two pieces together which is the 2 plys you are talking about. Is that correct? And that will give you a little under 1/2" thick corner piece for the furniture (plywood being under nominal thickness like it is).

BTW sweet jig you built for the bending process.

ebb

11-15-2011, 01:53 PM

Need a metal brake to bend 1/4" Baltic.
But why birch?

Tony G

11-15-2011, 03:41 PM

Thank you Larry.

Jerry, we are attempting to prebend two 1/8" sheets for the total thickness of 1/4". It only held about 45 degrees when I released the clamps. So it looks like another round of water is in order. This time I won't be quite so conservative now that I've seen the results of lastnights trials.

Ebb, it is resiliant! I buy baltic birch because that is the only thing offered out here in the middle of no where. I introduced an extra 3 degrees to compensate for any spring back...yeah, right.

Tony G

11-19-2011, 04:08 PM

Because it isn't feasable to keep a decent temperature 24hrs a day with the little 5KW heater we have, I've been trying to think of ways to at least get the chance to glue small peices together. Some of the small electrical heaters still use 750 to 1500 KW and that's a lot of juice for what you get. So I got a couple of sheets of 1 1/2" styrofoam and cobbled together a "hot box" that is 36"w x 48"l x 30"h. The corners are pinned together with 1/8" x 18" rods which makes it easy to put together and pull apart. It is heated with two 100w bulbs in reflectors. I don't have a thermometer handy but it was nice and toasty in there this morning while the ambient air temp in the shop was near the mid thirties. (outside temp was 14)
803680378038

I still have to come up with a way to heat the hull and cabin this winter if I want to lay down some epoxy. It may be just a different version of this as I don't want to invest in a bunch of heaters. I can heat up the outside of the hull by directing the gas heater toward it for a short while as we bring the shop up to temp before going to all electric heat. Then it may be up to some more reflectors and a means of clamping them in place for twelve hours. I've even thought about getting some electric blankets and draping them over the hull adjacent to where we're working to see if they could hold a constant temperature. Any ideas out there?

Commander 147

11-19-2011, 06:29 PM

Tony

It is rare that I need to heat my work area for Destiny most of the time my problem is that it is so hot I can hardly breath let alone work and the epoxy kicks much faster than I want it to, but I have had a couple freezing nights since I started this project and I may get a couple more soon. But heat lamps directed onto the raw epoxy was enough to make it kick properly even though it frooze overnight. My shelter has no way to heat it since it is open on both ends. You are enclosed and insulated so work on the inside of your boat might work out with just the heat lamps like I used. 1976 was the last year I lived in the cold county so I have probably forgot a lot of the pain involved in working in that enviroment but you asked for suggestions so............

larry

11-19-2011, 06:57 PM

Tony,
We had an extreme winter here last year and my girl wasn't inside. I was able to maintain a good temperature inside by just wrapping her good and tight with tarps. I was really surprised what heat I absorbed from the sun this way, even with snow on top. I had one small heater and a type of brooder bulb I use to keep my chickens warm. At freezing temps it would be 65 degrees by 9:00am. Under twenty and/or the wind blowing I didn't even try though. At 14 that certainly is a challenge when trying to spare expense. But being at 30 in the shop you should be able to get the inside cabin warm.
Stopping escaping heat will benefit mostly I think, and closing off the berth and access to other areas where your not working whereby minimizing the space.
Your right the tiki says it all.:(

mbd

11-20-2011, 03:44 AM

... Any ideas out there?
Move South? :)

I'm still trying to get over the shock that you tore out your previous gorgeous and curvy interior...

On the constructive side of things, I don't know about exterior hull work, but perhaps, if you're planning on it, you could make insulating the interior your first order of business, then keep it nice and toasty inside?

Tony G

11-20-2011, 06:35 AM

Stopping escaping heat will benefit mostly I think, and closing off the berth and access to other areas where your not working whereby minimizing the space.:(

I tried to do a multiple quote reply because all three of you hit the nail on the head. "Move South"! For some reason I never thought of just sealing off the area we're working in. This deserves a closer look to find out what kind of impact just filling in those big holes would make. I think we may need the assistance of a low/high temperature recording thermometer. I wonder if it will be necessary to insulate the hull? Would it be better to insulate the outside vs. the inside of the hull? My reasoning is, will the cold hull "wick" the heat away if just the inside is insulated? Will I have to heat both sides? I could use heat lamps on the outside directed at the hull but eventually I'm going to have so many lights burning I may have been better off to get another energy hungry heater...

It looks like progress may take a back seat to investigation for a bit here as the cold weather hasn't really hit yet. Even though it is bright and sunny this morning it is only 1 degree above zero! I'm confident the hot box is doing just fine but the shop is going to be cold and we're going to burn through some gas today!

Commander 147

11-20-2011, 07:02 AM

Tony

You might be surprised on how little it takes to keep the inside of the boat toasty warm. Blankets over open hatches or uninstalled ports would probably be all it takes if you use heat lamps directed on the work. I've been overnighting on my boat in some pretty chilly conditions and body heat was enough to keep her comfortable inside.

ebb

11-20-2011, 07:54 AM

this is your gallery spot - I have no quams and would not be angry in the slightest if you wanted this ebb stuff, any of it, removed, which I can do from here, OK? Really.]
You want to see what temp your glue/epoxy will set up at.
Could do tests by gluing two small pieces of plywood together at right angles and see what happens with them in various cold locations in your shop. and boat.
I'd try setting up something on the workbench with elcheapo aluminum/clamp worklights (100W incandescent.)
While epoxy can be gummy for awhile (and you think you've screwed up) at low temp it will eventually set up.
I have always assumed that 'all' 2-part bisphenol epoxies will eventually cure - whether the work was done at 50 degrees or 100 degrees.
However that may be just the experience I have with my stuff in the non extreme temps of mid-coastal Calif.
Most material data sheets will give the maker's safe application temp range - which could probably be stretched a little. Experiment.

With inside/outside heat & cold you could have moisture (dew) settling on your work. That could mess with your bond.

Guess that actual jobs you do on the boat will be locallized.
Not overall priming/paint jobs. They might be safer to schedule when it's warmer, and the doors can be open.
Setting up lamps close, but not too close, to a glue-up on the boat can easily be done.
I use cheap lite polyester quilted pads - that have found a number of non-furniture-moving uses on the boat.* Casually drape/tuck one of these over the lamps but not touching the lamps and when you come back in the AM the epoxy will be hard.

Could drape an electric blanket on the outside of the hull where the work is inside.
Cover that with a quilted pad and prop them close to the hull. No problema, senor.

Halogen worklights produce a tremendous amount of heat.**
Not so sure they can safely be tented over with cloth and left alone.
Sears/OSH halogens I've used are too hi-temp aggresive imco. A few of the old-fashioned worklights (purchased new so their wire connections won't become an issue) will be safer to tent over an epoxy job.
After burning myself a bunch of times I've 86ed halogens from the boat and now use flourescent work lights. Which tend to be bigger and even more clumsy then I am. !*%^@$*?.. cords!
In fact when dropping the halogen worklights had the stupid poisonous bulbs break making it too big a frickin deal to change the bulb out - so trashed them.

I don't think it's too big a deal to get the epoxy to cure.
If you are not already: use only 100% solids epoxy in your shop. 100% solids means no solvents. Less chance of blushing with slow hardeners.
Cold conditions will cause epoxy to blush. I never use West Systems. Non blushing epoxies can be purchased
- but attention to your tenting procedure, getting the right amount of heat for setting the epoxy up, is probably easier than you think.
A large-dial outdoor thermometer can be propped close to the glue-up. Santa maybe will drop a little digital one in your stocking over the fireplace.
[I always cleanup with denatured alcohol (and may be paying an ugly price for doing that). I tend to clean up the job before leaving so that there is minimum sanding/scraping prep when I come back for my reward. It is imco the least lethal of available solvents. Maybe there's a non-explosive cleaner to use by now. I wouldn't use water/vinegar, since epoxy is alkali, vinegar acid, and water soaks. There may be a citrus product, but needs research.]

But you scare me when you talk of buttoning up your workspace, you want 'fresh air' to work in. There is probably enough in the shop - BUT
I would especially be wary of solvents that can flash (obviously alcohol as well) - and fumes that can kill.:eek:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
*Quilted Protective Pads. (McMasterCarr, Cat Pg 1272) The ones I have are the lite weight cheaper ones, about 6'X6' and 8'X8'. Stuffed with something polyester-wool, they don't attract moisture and dry quick. Originally got a bunch, cut them in half and drapped them from the toerail around the whole boat when the awlgrip topsides were new.
But now I fold them to make a soft seat, to kneel on, to lay on (zzzz z z ), to put non-scratchable work on like the cabin windows, and to tent a localized glue-up with lamps under. Certainly can consider these as 'insulating' also. Always a couple floating around in the back of the truck.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
**If you tent the boat wanting to come back to a warmer boat interior, halogen worklights (smaller ones with clamps) left on all night as space heaters might be cheaper to use than an allnight heater. Safer???

Tony G

11-20-2011, 05:10 PM

Well here's what I'm trying first. I rolled out to the box stores today and picked up a couple of cheapo digital min/max/current thermometers and one big dial thermo. The dial one is for the shop so I know the temp in house. One of the min/max thermos went into the hot box. With two 100watt bulbs running in there and a shop temp of 55deg the box temp was 92! Warm enough.

I also picked up a sheet of foil backed 3/4" styro and cut filer pieces for the four ports in the cabin, one for the main bulkhead, a piece to fill the opening from under the cockpit and one that covers the main hatchway. I put 3 more reflectors with a 100 watt bulb in each securely clamped in the main cabin and closed her up. After about 45 minutes we were up to 60 degrees. I will swing by the shop tomorrow before work and note the max and min temps. Fingers crossed.

Commander227

11-21-2011, 04:50 AM

Tony,
how about the heat cable for roofs and gutters. you could tape it in zigzags to the outside of the hull and cover it with Ebb's moving blankets. It would be like having in floor heat, and little worries of explosions.
Mike

Tony G

11-24-2011, 10:09 AM

Well here are the preliminary shake outs. The shop stays "relatively" warm overnight if I go there for a couple of hours after work consiering the outside temps. The ambient shop temp was 45 degrees at 7:15 a.m. with the outdoor temp down around 17. The hot box was 69 degrees, which was the 24 hr. low temp., with just one light burning overnight. So the hot box will work for gluing or coating or what have you. It appears the limiting factor is going to be it's limited volume and in response we will have to make a racking system that glue and epoxy doesn't like.

The boat was a bit different though. With three 100 watt bulbs going over night the high temp was 60 degrees at the level of the side deck turn-out from the cabin trunk. That was the temp when I left her the previous night in a pre-heatd shop. The low temp recorded, and the temp I found the following morning was 52. Not good enough. So I fashioned a stable stand and adjusted all three reflectors to shine on an area of approximately 2' x 3' of the hull and set the thermometer slighly off center of the "hot spot". The following evening the shop's air temp was close to 50 degrees (outside temp of nearly the same!) and the thermometer's low recorded, high recorded and present temp was 79 degrees. That would work. One problem I see is fashioning a stand that will allow the reflectors to be aimed with the propper orientation.

Tony,
how about the heat cable for roofs and gutters. you could tape it in zigzags to the outside of the hull and cover it with Ebb's moving blankets. It would be like having in floor heat, and little worries of explosions.
Mike

I really like this idea, Mike. I had completely over looked the concept. You saw the Moorhead store when you picked up the Ensign hull. That building taught me a lot about winter water pipe "maintenace". I had also used heat tape and a variable rheostat in one zone of our reptile room for an under-tank heat source. Coming up with a way to hold the tape against the hull is important as contact is necessary and the heat will probably over power the tape's adhesive. I keep going back to the idea of gluing it to a blanket of insulation and then tying or strapping that to the hull. But the more I look at he curves in that area it would take quite a network of lines to hold it in place. And I can't overlook the fact that there is a good deal of cost involved to build it. Ok, less than $200 but that will buy a lot of light bulbs! But there is a certain "elegance" to your idea and I keep weighing the results of my light/thermo tests against the heat tape idea.

As an aside- I was completely baffled and thuroughly disgusted that the second curved plywood corner came out of the form nearly flat! WT... I certainly had checked the flex direction before cutting the flat stock and had that right. I double checked the off-cuts and verified that the orientaion was correct. But it was just flat out stubborn. It wasn't until I held the two pieces side by side that I noticed that they were two different products. Both were sold as 1/8" Baltic birch plywood but one had face veneers that were twice as, if not three times as, thick as the other. Crap. So hopefully Black Friday will find me at Valley Hardwood with the correct stock in hand. I just hope he doesn't have a stack of super thick veneer sheets.

Hey, have a wonderful Thanksgiving all!

ebb

11-24-2011, 12:10 PM

1/8" ply you have to bend, if bending is possible, WITH the face grains.

You may have to cut into the compressed side of the ply with your table saw. Like cut with the grain 1/16" in on the side that will be on the inside of the curve. The tighter the curve the more slices you must make. Like 1/2" spaced cuts.

If you are encapsulating, which I would heartily recommend, you will gain 90% of the plywood's strength back.

With tight curves you may still have to presoak the ply in boiling water to get it close to keeping bent.
Don't know about keeping its curve.

To keep the curve you may have to augment your jig.
Use mylar or seran wrap to separate the pipe form from the work. Epoxy the cut side
On your second or third try you might be adding strips of glass over the curve INSIDE. It would be a composite you are making.
All in an attempt to keep the wood from spring back.

Good luck.

Be easier with plain 1/16" veneers (Constantines). Ending inside with an added layer ie a piece of 10oz cloth.

You saw my cheat. I glued afro mahogany veneer right onto PVC pipe. Wish now I had used drain pipe rather than sched 20.
But the choice of diameters would have been limited.

For bigger curves you can get ready-made curves out of poplar - they come in quarters and halves. And the stuff is thick.
Poplar has the same rot resistance as birch, so it has to be totally isolated from reality.

Tony G

11-24-2011, 02:49 PM

Hey Ebb

I tried doing 1/16" deep kerf cuts every 1/4" on a what if mission in addition to steaming with the iron. It ended up with a sharp (8 degreeish) bend every quarter inch through the radius. Sure it could have been filled and sanded to work but it was a disappointing result for the amount of additional work that was put into this piece when compared to the other piece that came out of the form smooooth and shapely.

You used PVC? I didn't know that. I***assumed*** you either laminated your own or bought them ready made. I found a source for quarter round, 2" radius, 1/4" thick stock but the minimum order and shipping would have kept me in quarter round and full debt for a year or two :0

ebb

11-24-2011, 05:53 PM

Another couple cheats: One is wigglewood. Fully stocked lumber stores. Concrete guys use it to make forms for curvey walls. The ply is all one direction no cross veneers, uni-direction layers are glued to unwoven cloth scrim, easy to form any linear curve. Meant for forming, not to include in a composite.

Incorporated a cardboard mailing tube for a radius right angle corner on the 1/4" plywood cupboard front in the galley. [pix @ ebb's PGT/pg17/#336]
It was 'easy' to glue the paper tube to the 90 degree front & side connecting the pieces.
BUT first the setback ply edges were feathered inside to the tube's diameter
which made a pretty good curved surface in those edges to glue the tube onto. Turned out this feathering for a 3"D circle on 1/4" ply is about 3/4" wide, coming to a sharp edge. The cardboard radius, the tube, is epoxied to the inside of the ply panels. Think that's important.
Glued that way, the cardboard appears to be on the same plane as the outside ply surface. Not obvious what material makes the fancy corner.

So, a WHOLE 3"D white USPS mailing tube - including plastic endcap inserts - was used to glue the prepared ply pieces together to make up this OHSO upscale radius corner (insert end caps make the paper tube quite stiff.)
After cure, cut off top, bottom and sliced away the whole inside unglued portion - which was at least 66% of the tube. It's called: 'cutting corners.'
Voila!...round cardboard corner. (Careful! It's a bit limp at this point.)

SHOCKING!!!, you call this fine woodworking?

The corner outside has no visible seams after sealing and priming.
However, the unseen 'inside' of the glue-up has two or three overlapping glass pieces laminated around the corner for strength - tieing it together, beefing up and stiffening the cardboard. The whole thing is saturated and encapsulated epoxy and cloth.....and cardboard.
It seems to have worked well enough to make me think that the method could be used on exterior fiberglass projects - if the weather-side of the panel also had a layer of cloth & epoxy - instrument covers, dorades, vents, even small hatches. I left this interior piece well sealed but one sided in way of fiberglass.

Still haven't installed the cupboard front with its short side piece and nice but rather thin corner (when you look at it edge on.). It's stiff and doesn't bend or flop. It's been in and out of the boat and truck a number of times. That fake corner hangs in there - plenty opportunity to have torn it off already - nope! Knock-on-wood.
There is NO movement, springback or change in radius on this cheap shot. It might as well be solid wood......but why?
(Tony, it certainly seems like I'm a paper tiger beating his chest here. Sorry. Had to point out that cheating is a fact of cabinet making.):rolleyes:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________
OnlineMetals ships stuff in thick/heavy cardboard tubes which I've used pieces of for forms. But those tubes are way too thick for even thinned epoxy to penetrate and soak.
This Gov'mint issue thinwall cardboard tube material transforms into another animal when it's absorbed epoxy juice. And shelled with glass cloth.

Tony G

11-24-2011, 07:17 PM

Ingenuity, man, ingenuity! Hulls were once made of wood. Then all plastic models proved themself. Why not a plactic corner? Who really cares what the mold was made of! You're still at the top of my list, Ebb.

Tony G

11-27-2011, 04:28 PM

Totally bummed out. Mike at Valley Hardwood had a 5 inch thick stack of 1/8" Baltic Birch plywood that turned out to be the "wrong" stuff for what we had in mind. He stated the lumber industry has some inconsistencies. In his defense, he does an excellent job of supplying this area with hard to find exotics and a good deal of bread and butter stuff too. So we'll spend a little time this week trying to find out how much "one" sheet of plywood is going to cost to get here.

But on the up swing, here's the one piece we did have enough of the "right" stock to work with. It's funny how much of a difference 3/4" in radius makes. But these corners are a much better fit in our smaller boats.

Tony G

11-27-2011, 04:54 PM

I don' get it. I put in three good days of work and these photos look like a hodge podge of pieces just cobbled together. Probably because it is just a bunch of pieces cobbled together. But it gives you an idea of what's goin' on. The port side will have the sink and an Atom Stove. The starboard side is refer and electronics. You can see where the original settees were tabbed to the hull to give you a reference point for dimensions. I had to cut holes into the aft bulkhead to accomodate the sliders in the counter top that give access to the refer and the stove.

ebb

11-29-2011, 08:34 AM

In the old days we had FinnPly and RussianPly
FinnPly birch was put together with Phenolic glue.

Russian aka BALTIC birch ply is glued with urea-formaldehyde (but who knows?) and would be considered INTERIOR grade plywood. It eventually will delaminate. 'Eventually' could be very short term in a damp environment.

FinnPly was also known as AIRCRAFT grade birch plywood -phenolic-formaldehyde - EXTERIOR grade. This grade is often stamped with the panel's ID, down in a corner or on the endgrain.
It is obviously going to be more expensive.
These are both imported panels. The best grade will have BS1088 stamped on it, especially the thinner millimeter panels that are used for wooden aircraft building.

You can't use the interior baltic stuff anywhere permanently on a boat. Even encapsulated with epoxy. Beware!

However,
the Ariel douglasfir bulkheads and tabbed-on plywood cleats that Pearson used for the chainplates was/is standard exterior fir ply. Settees and other furniture may have been a similar grade but I'm not sure. In my opinion the structural plywood in A-338 was whatever HomeDepot of the '60s had in stock. Believe douglasfir is rated moderately rot resistant. And the glue had to have been urea-formaldehyde. Still MUCH better stuff than baltic ply.
Except for obvious areas of rot (chainplates) the plywood has lasted pretty good for almost a half century!
(The difference imco is that fir has resin in the fiber, while birch has sugar in the fiber, which composts and black molds immediately.)

Tony G

11-29-2011, 12:36 PM

In that case, I am seriously screwed. Stem to stern. Port to starboard.

ebb

11-29-2011, 03:27 PM

Can't be all bad. Here's 10 posts at
google:
Birch Plywood in boatbuilding - Boat Design Forums.

Tony, encapsulate where you can, all eight sides. (IE, the surfaces of what you are connecting both have epoxy - either cured or wet, but both.)
I've always used my laminating epoxy - but there has to be a waterborne epoxy with NO VOCs so you can work and breathe at the same time.
I'm thinking that a good primer is the way to go. But still use 2-part 100% solids for inaccessible areas that will collect damp.

MAYBE screw on epoxy-soaked flat panels so you have easier take apart access.
Go lite, thinner panels might well absorb thin epoxy into their core - and actually become rotproof.

Good paint.

Fillet ALL angles and joints. No cracks, no square joints. Make it so no water can stay in any locker. Angle bottoms to drain.
Design in VENTILATION.... Maybe even forced air. I'm using port and starboard inline blowers.

Design open lockers for air circulation.

Do all your FRAMES in less rot-prone fir or hardwood. Attach 8-side encapsulated birch ply PANELS on that. Keep bottoms away from any water collection areas.
Drain those areas. Drain Plugs.
Seadog makes tidy 1" black nylon, screw in O-ring plugs, The 'plate' for two screws is triangular - and they are nice and they are cheap. Every one of my lockers will have a drain that can be opened and closed.

Don't poison anything for mold proofing.

Favorite saying from a famous furniture maker: It's all in how you go from your last foul up to your next foul up. Foul up isn't spelled correctly here.

THERE IS ALWAYS A WAY OUT.;)