Hey, I was just there last week. Wonder what happened to door number three-the one that got picked for the Ariel/Commander? I may be wrong here but one of those profiles looks identicle to the Ensign h/d joint and the other one looks suspect to many Bristol pictures I've seen. Having never actually touched a B-27...how about a CD D-25?
Well Ebb, it's cold and snowing outside. Yuk. Boatwise it's time to turn to paper and thought for some of us. Okay. What's happening with 338? Is the cabin sole out yet and the new tankage in? How about the MSD. Eeewee. Airhead-Lavac-Willcox-Crittendon? Don't think we've nailed you down on that one yet.
Capt Tonio,
When the weather changed, surprised and embarrassed once more at how blinding fast the seasons pass on by, had this Urge, man - you have no idea - to work on the topsides, befor the bloddy tent got blown apart again.
Eyeball to gelcoat, I've covered 1/2 the sides in microsphere brownie mix. Done the batten thing, made the vertical pencil lines, traced the puddles therein to fill. Measured and mixed. Filled and waited, longboarded endlessly and did it again.
Coming close to something like fair curves. Have a 3 foot board now made from closet pole, 1/4" lexan, carpet tape and a great anti-static 36 grit 3" wide sanding belt. Awesome stuff.
Missed this weekend in the cycle because the chocolate didn't bake in the 30 - 50 degree temp. Put it on late and it didn't set in the freezing overnight. Got up to 60 today and it attempted to harden, but didn't.
The topsides is a major project. The whole boat between the imprinted bulkheads fore and aft, and the imprinted stringers up to the rail has to be faired. My fairing is essentially a valiant attempt to plump the sides out to only vaguely what the Master's lines are in the Manual. When I laid the fairing batten horizontally on the hull, a new set of hollows showed up. While either side of the boat have not equal unfairness, both had a double dipper, requiring extra fill, just forward of the compression bulkhead in that difficult area where the flare of the bow is changing into the vertical sides at mid section. It is hard to read the transition with the eye, so much is happening.
Remember Geoff had that weird dip in Uhuru's hind quarter? No dip in 338's - but her tight little curved port quarter had a hollow 1/4" deep, while the starboard side is pretty much ok.
Airhead, I haven't persued. It would be really cool to have a working composting toilet aboard. They did say that they were working on designing a shorter model. And eventually 338 will have one. Tho it's hard not to be persuaded by Jim Baldwin's enthusiasm for the Lavac in his Triton. We are a flush it down the drain society, at all levels, I'm glad we have the humble portopotti as an alternative.
As you know I've been trying to find a contrasting color and more cremey epoxy paste to continue with the next step, something to fill scratches etc. WasteMarine had SplashZone and some one parts - nope. I wanted to check out Svensons again. So, went way the hell over to Alameda. What a great place the store is, what a relief! Didn't smell of plastic fenders, wasn't a chandlery morphing into a OSH.
They had Interfil by Interlux in a 1/2gal kit for $60. Read the cans, looked like it's ok. Take to boat, cut the cans apart, read inclosed miniature pamphlet. Way at the end, on the last page, it says:
Must be washed with water after each use.
(Expletive) (Delete) If Interfux thinks I'm ever using a single product of theirs on 338 they're crazy. I feel Insulted. What kind of jerks market a filler that has to be washed befor you put the next layer on - and even befor you sand it??? You guys really put up with disrespect like this? You and I know they could make the better product
and still overprice it.
Last edited by ebb; 11-23-2003 at 08:39 PM.
Ebb,
Another product like that, that needs washing , is called WEST system. You must remove the blush or problems later down the road will appear.
Yeah,
West System is up front about it. Sort of.
What got me was that Interpox had it sealed between two cans and inside a small print pamphlet. like it was dirty.
W h a t ?
Like they were embarrassed or something? Wouldn't it be part of the general directions ON the can? Because They know that some of us know that they are using additives like nonyl phenol which is a cheap carcinogenic extender to adulterate their product.
Now, Aye don't know what Intersucs has in this 2 part paste. I have not checked out the MSDS. I'm assuming tho that like System 3 MAS RAKA and West they no longer list nonyl phenol as a hazardous material on their MSDS. Wouldn't you like to know who let That happen?
It is a non volitile carcinogenic additive that increases volume and decreases epoxy's good points like strength, and chemical, temperature and water resistence. While there are epoxies with the stuff that don't blush, all the rest of the adulerated have nonyl phenol at least partially to blame for blushing.
Blush is a greasy film that you cannot trust to another layer without agressive scrubbing. Why trust it after the scrubbing? You got a degree in goddam scrubbing? The window for applying overcoats without the cleaning is very small as it can be done only when it is setting but not cured. This represents a huge amount of time and labor to ready the surface for recoat. In the actual 3D real 26' Ariel boat world why use it? My cod, if I had to scrub down the topsides we are fairing befor each layer I'd truly be nuts be now. How can anybody conceive of a filler that you had to do this to? Corporate sleeze fueled by greed. Maybe worse.
If Interbucs (and the rest of the crew) really cared about your needs they would not sell you junked up epoxies. A boat, or anything your life depends on, requires the best. If these jerks are not selling you the best, or hiding from you the questionable quality of their product, DO NOT TRUST THEM.
For a few bucks more they could do it right, and sell to you a superior product. And EARN your trust.
The head Intercluck gave himself a 9 billion dollar bonus this year fror being so clever in cheapening his product. This is probably a lie. Probably only 8.
Anybody else want the soapbox?
Last edited by ebb; 11-25-2003 at 09:18 PM.
Some how Ebb, I get the feeling you don't support the current administration's policy " don't let 'em ask, and we won't tell 'em what's in it .
If it's good for business, especially my friends in Texas, then its good for me , er ah the world. "
Personally I have pretty much had it with buying Marine grade products in general, especially where paint and epoxy are concerned...largely thanks to Ebb's advice pertaining to www.epoxyproducts.com . I've also been fortunate enough to cultivate a good working relationship with a local commercial-only vendor who sell to boatbuilding firms which has allowed me to get pretty much anything in industrial, marine or aircraft resin and core products at a super super deal.
When I use up the last of my last 5-gallon pail of S-3, I'm gonna have a party since it means I don't have to have 2 sets of hardeners...just Jeffco aircraft resin, barrier coats, etc. etc. etc., and ONE set of hardener products does all of the resins. Not blushy. Not stinky. Real consistent.
I love you, Ebb...
Dave
...blush
Quit huffing the fool fumes, Ebb!!
We were just talkin' 'bout no-blush stuff here!
Man!
Luv you too, Dave!
Tony, Dave, Bill, et al! Must be forgiven for not responding, Have just seen a list for the first time of yer unanswered posts by inadvertently pushing one of those bars I can hardly read at the top of the page here. Ebb is Not computer savvy and will never figure out all the features one can use on this site. Sorry.
I've been on the shoals for a couple of months - the cold weather not helping either - with the epoxy.
The original forehatch has the framework in for the new Bomar. It had to be completely sawn out. The interior mahogany trim against the curvey roof went in pretty good, but not varnished yet. The exterior needs to be completed. I haven't enuf other stuff done for the Boss to record.
Have begun to work on the OB well again. The cockpit now is open all the way to the transom. Cut sides of the old vertical access hatch back to the cockpit well. The built in tanks continue the eye to the transom. Whether the hatch will be extended forward to cover the OB I don't know yet. But convinced self that the hatch should be in three pieces with the center piece, being the width of the cockpit well only, remade so as to cover the OB. You may remember the OB clamp board is moved forward about 4"". The two much smaller side pieces can remain shut most of the time. Conceivably there will be standing room on the quarters of the stern with the OB hatch open. How about that?
Like it, because I think only Professor Alberg had these giant rear hatch covers (to be able to lay in the old kicker) and this preserves the look.
The side windows are being Baldwined. Got the 3/8s Lexan. And have some ideas to share soon on how to install stiff 3/8s plastic in 1/2" wide channels that are curved.
Last edited by ebb; 02-04-2004 at 09:07 AM.
ebb- I don't think I ever saw your final disposition of your rudder. how did it come out in the end? what would you change about your current design? somewhere in here you said that you wouldn't have done it that way if you knew what you know now. do you still think that? what would you suggest?
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
km.
I don't think I saw the disposition of that rudder either!
But it's coming soon.
It's all fine and dandy to experiment. I'm not really 100% behind this clamshell rudder - which won't make any sense, I know, until it's together, so that photos can be taken, and comments made. I did make a full size model in wood but didn't carry it forward into the glassing stage where problems have developed. [and there have been dozens of other projects on the boat to keep the plate-spinner busy]
Did have another idea to spite myself which I now think is more viable. I think it can be engineered much more simply. You have a rudder that is simply cut in half across the blade with one piece socketting into the other. Each piece is made complete and independent of the other. One would slip into the other and simply fastened. I leave the design work to you, professor! Probably not that simple!
If I did not have a full time commitment, I'ld love to do it, really! See if there is any easy way to remove and replace these keel hung rudders without a third party.
Perhaps only a cruiser is interested in a maintainable rudder. Damage to a rudder that can not be removed for repair wherever you are IMCO is dangerous. Not hard to imagine an intense scenario where the hole you have to dig to slip the original rudder out the tube just keeps filling as you dig.
The clamshell rudder (soon to be photoed) uses too many small fastenings (5 bolts) to keep it secure. I'm not happy with small fastenings under water. Glad you're interested!
Last edited by ebb; 02-19-2004 at 06:45 PM.
FWIW, I had originally worked out a design in a foam-cored rudder mainly for ease of workability and for fear of having so much bronze in the water to get eaten. Two things stopped that, which was finding out how bad an idea the carbon fiber near/touching bronze would be and also finding about the effect of buoyancy and weight vs. what we percieve as part of the weather helm issue, i.e. a heavy rudder as the boat heels.
New plan is shockingly like sage Ebbster's bronze sheet idea, welded up with bronze sheet stringers inside to hold the shape and improve the tie-in to the shaft, then glassed and sheathed in kevlar and faired. This is actually much simpler than the previous plan and even simpler than constructing of plywood...the only difficult part is finding a reliable welder who is familiar with TIG welding on bronze! The form of the thing is an easy one, just a 2:1 taper...NACA foils do not belong on this type of rudder and are apparently counterproductive.
The rudder is to be counterweighted internally as well in order to try for the most neutral average helm feel possible.
I think...at long last...we are finally ready to build the pair of them.
One mod is the one-piece rudder shaft (almost 7' long!), and the Ariel type rudder shoe and support strap (straps, in my case, we're using two in the same locations as the recesses lie for the gudgeons). Here's hoping!
Dave
Good layups on your rudders, Dave.
I was appalled at the weight of the clam shell! If I didn't have so much time and money into it I would do a second one. After 338 is sailing we shall be very critical. Is it not obvious:
The rudder knows only that it sits in the shoe 3/4" and is 3/4" diameter there. The rudder knows that halfway up the keel the shaft is, let's say, half round where the gudgeon strap is located. It knows it is 1" D, with a key way, at the tiller head.
Everywhere else in its 7 feet the rudder can be anything it wants. As long as it stays within the design parameters. Some great modern materials and methods open up some exciting possibilities.
There are a number of successful rudder rebuilds. remakes, remodels, refits recorded here. To be better than the simple and direct original the innovative rudder has to be something else. Well. different, anyway. The take apart idea keeps the synapses sinning and snapping in the internal cafe at the edge of the univers.
Season's changing, it's epoxy time again.
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