Good idea on the epoxy fill.
The tiller design in the Manual sits up about this high
Good idea on the epoxy fill.
The tiller design in the Manual sits up about this high
You can adjust the curve, but it feels pretty comfortable.
I used a H&L tiller for a Pearson 27. It is longer and it bends
upward a little higher. The one that came with the boat was
in rough shape.
Captain John
While you're replacing the tiller, take a good look at the tiller head fitting. Mine broke on my Commander a week after I was crossed Lake Michigan in a really bad blow and I've had the same thing happen on my Vanguard now. I had new ones made from stainless. There's a drawing of the Vanguard one on www.pearsonvanguard.org in the pdf files section which could be scaled down for the Commander.
I'm not comforable with mixing metals on the rudder shaft assembly. SS and bronze are close, but there will still be a current. Even with all bronze, there have been failures due to "hot" marinas.
Skylark -
Who did you get to fabricate the tiller head fitting? I was looking at mine last weekend and having the same thought -- be nice to at least carry a spare. Losing that in a blow would be a pretty hard problem to solve.
Incidentally -- and my thanks to all who posted tips on this:
a. I've ordered what I hope will be a decent replacement tiller from H&L; will let everyone know how that turns out.
b. In the meantime, I bought an axe handle (!!) from my local hardware store -- it fit in there like it was made for the slot; drilled the holes, and good to go. So at least I have a workable spare, and something to use until I get the new one.
Fair Wind
On the tiller head assembly? Gee, this isn't a generic thing!!!
So far as I know bronze is not going to crystalize out of the water.
My original (I'm assuming this) tiller head which is comprised of two unchromed castings, one fitting over the other, seems to be just as malleable as the day it was made. You can see a lot of 'worrying' in the keyway. And some mangling where DFOs cranked too hard on the nut that squeezes that casting around the shaft where it holds the key.
What Broke ? ? ?
Compared to my Edson replacement the original tiller head is a substantial work of art and well worth fixing IMCO. Would weld it with a MIG and reshape the piece back to original dimensions. Piece of cake.
By the way: and I think it was pointed out here (in Search)
The more the tillerhead is in the closed position (the Down position) the stronger it is going to be because there is more metal to metal bearing surface to turn the rudder. Therefor you want a tiller that swings over the knees when the tiller head is in it's resting position. Doubt you can find an offshelf WM tiller which has the S curve required for this.
Oh, and the other thing about the original tiller head is that the channel for attaching the tiller is not only 1 1/4" wide but only 1 1/4" deep. The spread of the holes thru the channel sides is minimal - it means that the bolts go thru maybe two laminations - assuming you have a laminated rudder. The bolt holes are essentially in line along the top of the tiller laminations - pressure on the tiller, pushing downward especially, is made for a split to happen. Don't think engineers would like this much.
My guess is that the tiller installation leaves a lot wood below the metal channel. While this adds to the unity of the whole lamination, it is argueably a flaw in the design. The fix would be to weld on some bronze strips to the sides to deepen the channel so more wood would bear and redrill the holes for a better spread. It would take a sophisticated shop to do this. They'ld have to have some 1/4" bronze plate sitting around.
A better, easier, fix might be to drill thru the top of the tiller channel and put a backup plate on the bottom that incorporates the two or three bolts. Wouldn't look too bad if you squared the holes and used carriage bolts. Plus you're clamping all the laminations together. Epoxy glue doesn't like exposure and will degrade.
Preparing for a broken tiller, would you use butterfly nuts underneath so that you could more quickly attach the ax handle or maybe the spare tiller???
Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2003 at 12:05 PM.
I suppose the dissimilar metals question is a pertinent one, but in 17 years I haven't noticed any problems. I had the new fittings made by someone who worked in a factory I met at the marina here in Milwaukee and don't remember the name, but this is a very easy project for someone with the proper tools and access to materials.
Brazing the existing fitting would be a solution, but there might be other areas after all these years of use that could be suffering from fatigue and I wanted something I could count on. Having the fitting on my Commander break a week after being caught in 20 ft. waves and gale winds made me skeptical of reusing the fitting. The part that broke was opne of the straps that tie the two parts of the fitting together. During this same crossing, friends who were in another Commander traveling in tandem with us broke their tiller itself and were towed in; I now carry a spare tiller with fitting just in case! I probably don't have quite the worry of galvanic action being in fresh water as some of you would in salt water.
The only strap part I see on 338's fitting is, when looking down at it from the top, is the 'hinge' part just behind the inner casting which attaches to the top of the shaft. It has a 5/16" bolt acting as the pin.
The strap part of the tiller holder is 2" long on either side of the part that holds the shaft. These short flat forks measure 1 1/8" X 9/32." The change from channel to strap is curved around the part on the shaft. The straps are thicker than 1/4". The total amount of metal the bolt goes thru is 1 1/2". That's massive!!!
The forces that broke your fitting must have been massive too. Again, I believe you have to have a tiller that when in use leaves the fitting in the closed position, as much as possible. IMCO the tiller head 338 has is Unbreakable. I think that steering while standing with the tiller up is asking too much of the fitting. Any fitting of this type. If anything is loose, like the tiller to the fitting or the shaft bearing, it makes breaking something more possible.
The Edson tillerhead. however, is a cast STRAP affair. It has no top where the wood is attached, the straps are only connected at the hinge area. Any fastenings have to go thru the sides. You would be able, of course, to place the tiller in the straps where you want. But most of the forces would be taken by the hinge bolt. It was the only one found at the time that fit a 1" shaft. (And the keyway is on the forward side of the fitting.) The chromed Edson is a poor cousin to the original, much lighter, about half the weight.
Bronze should be welded, not brazed.
I'm not a metalurgist but I think silicon and manganese bronze high copper alloys can't be leached enough to get crystalized. You know like they bring up cannons and coins from the seafloor in perfectly good condition. However an 'after market' chromed tiller fitting could be brass under the gilding.
Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2003 at 08:59 AM.
I agree that the fitting will be strongest with the tiller in the down position. I had no control how previous owners of both boats sailed their boats, but I am guilty of sailing with the tiller too high. That's another reason why I like having a stainless fitting. As far as welding vs. brazing bronze, both can be done. For a very informative article (about Lotus 7 cars and their construction) see http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?NotesOnWelding. I did not attempt to advocate one method over the other; I know nothing about either one. My stainless fitting is welded, super strong and I'm happy with it. There's been no degradation in it's strength in the 17 years I've owned my boat. However, each to his or her own; there are many ways to rig a boat.
Thanks, Capt skylark, and I apologise for a terse style that often comes out opinionated, lengthy, complicated, even brusque. The old fool thinks it's all in an attempt to gather and share world class knowledge about our world class classic. I often don't suffer myself too gladly, either.
Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2003 at 12:03 PM.
If 338 had a broken tillerhead I'ld be very interested in skylarks 'homemade' stainless steel design.
How about some photos?
17 years is a good eoough test for me!!! In boat years that's almost a classic.
I know I'm a bronze snob. But s.s. can be translated into bronze for the salted water fleet.
I can't imagine what it would cost at Bristol Bronze to have a copy made of 338's (assumed) original. [500 bucks? not including the cost of S & H and the not existant patterns!] There is a bunch of machining and picky handwork that would have to be done that would make the two part casting very expensive. I hope that Bristol will be persuaded one day to have the Ariel tillerhead available (with some IMCO necessary ungrades.)
I, for one, have to see what the welding shop produced for your Commander that has worked so well for all these years.
Last edited by ebb; 11-21-2003 at 01:10 PM.
Axe handle for a spare tiller? I love it.
I had a broken tiller fitting on my old Commander, # 199, (pictured below). A crack developed in one of the tangs. I ignored the problem for a year or two as the crack grew longer. One day the tang broke in two. I took the fitting to a specialty welding shop and they welded it back together. Within a few weeks, the crack began to develop again.
From this limited experience, I think that:
a) You should be able to notice a crack in the fitting long before it breaks;
b) After it broke, I could still gently steer the boat, but I wouldn't want to try that in the conditions Skylark described;
c) Welding was an unsatisfactory repair. Maybe a better welding job could have been done, I don't know.
d) I might have had a better result if I had it welded before it completely broke;
e) I recall being a little upset about the cost of the welding job. I think they charged me around $ 65! Obviously, the money would have been better spent on a new fitting, if one were available. If someone wants to clean this one up for use as a mold, just let me know.
Here it is
Almost cracked completely through again
Cooked that sucker pretty good, huh?
Weld on the bottom tang
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