EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD

[ebb]

foam is the filler in the clam shell, it isn't structural. There's very little of it. The rudder is rather narrow, right? The rudder is as bouyant as a piece of lead, or bronze. As I intimated above, this is not a good design, A good design is the original rudder. The 6 or 7 feet of 1" bronze shaft-rod at about 3# a foot doesn't make the original a floater, either. If the original rudder had been made totally out of wood, it would have been a floater. I have not heard that a lite foamfilled neutral rudder, like those that stand alone behind a fin, is desirable on the end of a keel. Would like to hear a discussion on this!!!

A rudder with two or three narrow triangles of flat bronze bar welded to the sides of the rod instead of allthread drilled thru the rod - the rest made up of divinycell, glass and epoxy would make a good substitute - come in at about the same weight - easier to maintain - ten times stronger - than the original. IMCO.

A two part socketing rudder like the one above could be designed at the cost of more weight. A full size working model out of wood would be made first.

Will make a valient attempt at finishing the present project. I advise everyone against it. Unless you make a compleat working model first! If the fiberglassing is successful there hopefully will be some photos.

[ebb]

Have about 3 passes, so far, of 407 in the hollows that go from stem nearly to the stern on 338 Has anybody faired their A/C to a batten? Would really like to hear how you proceeded! I can't be the only crazy around here? Love that longboarding!

[Tony G]

Sorry Ebb,
You're about eight months ahead of me in that department. Are you going to apply a dark topside paint? Is that why you're fairing the hull or is it just a personal obsession? I know 113 could use a little (read alot) of longboard action before painting next summer....so once again, I'm relying on you for technique and direction. Wish I could help but what I'm really saying, I guess, is keep up the good work. Just remember Ebb, I'm behind you all the way! Tony G

[ebb]

Capt T! How goes the prog? All kinds of fairing questions, probably some important not being asked. Began getting cooler weekends - going up that ladder all this time - sighting the hollows on the way to another project - had to do it - facing another seasonal slog thru wind and rain.

Some guys on the net talk about osmotic gelcoat blister repair or hydrodynamic maximum lift foil section fairing, but there is no blow by blow on this hickey problem we have.

I got a six foot piece of 1/8" x 1 1/2" aluminum from the hardwear. It has a smooth sexy feel to it. I had tried the aerosol primer technique, putting on a mst of color and then long boarding. Was effective - and depressing to see the huge dark puddles left. I felt uncomfortable with the foreign substance on the gel coat. It would be useful later in the topsides game.

338 had some dramatic filling to do, some places the bottom of the swale under the batten pressed on the hull seemed 1/4" deep! The flexible bar is laid against the hull and encouraged into the mildest arc by bending the top toward the toerail. You can't bend the batten around the bilge without putting a kink in it. One time I read a guy explaining how he used monofiliment to locate the dips - you can get the whole side - but you can't fiddle, or fondle, that extra fullness that brings relief to a tired brain and a weary eye. Don't think it's only a male thing.

We had longboarded the topsides twice befor, so they were well scratched. A few hilltops had begun to show some green thru the white. And we were beginning to be well versed in the long diagonal strokes needed for any fairing.

Every 5 or 6 inches along the hull, holding the batten at the seam and below at the turn in the hull, made a vertical pencil line representing the supposed hollow you could see under the batten. Connecting the ends of these lines together outlined the hollows into 'puddles.' Prime the puddle with virgin epoxy. Wipe as much off again with terry rags befor gooping.

407 I hear is a patented mix, Tried to make up fairng compound myself from microballoons and silica. Even at a stiff 50 to 50 mix I still got serious sag. And it was a b@!*^%d to sand. So I snuck into WM and shelled out $2 an ounce for 407, mixed it into a stiff as I dared brownie dough, and spread it on. Two 15 oz (!) containers $62.

Wouldn't you know, West Systems 407 sags TOO. You hafta mix in 404, says a wag. But that's silica, says I (whatever the damn number is!) And I KNOW that stuff is a bear to sand and impossible to fair.
So, I draw a piece of sheet metal bent improvisationally into a very approximate arc across the goop. collect it on the spatula and reapply it to the skips, and keep drawing the metal across the puddle. But the more you work the stuff (you ARE pressing it against the hull, which is a good thing) the more you bring liquid to the surface.

And it sags continuously until it gets hard. Must be what the patent was for. But it IS easy to sand. It's shiney too. After sanding, the low areas are untouched and dark while the rest has 'greyed' out. Where you did a single swipe and it's thin it stays dull and no sag. Lesson # 1: do not put it on thick on vertical surfaces. We haven't much, and the sag you learn to control by not trying to fill all at once. The 407 under the 36 grit longboarding doesn't produce dust, it's a kind of grit. But it has a static stickyness to it, likes to cling.

Ahhh! but the topsides, even in this 36 grit stage are beginning to look S O O O O sweet!

One nagging question. Is that this relatively soft stuff is going on to a very hard surface. That's the question. Now, we will sand this stuff back as far as we can. Maybe even flatter than Alberg's rounded curves you can see on the lines drawings, maybe. Once it is where it is going to be it can be hardened up with plain epoxy with a little silica, maybe? That's a question. I'ld say that nearly half of the topside surface is chocolate colored at the present time. That's a question.

[After experimenting: 407 can be made up extra stiff, non sag, and pressed on the surface, but maybe not with the comfort of being sure of a bond that a wetter mix will have. Sanding 407 does produce dust - not airbourn dust. The tarmat under the boat is pink with the stuff.]

[Tony G]

Ebb,
I used the El'cheapo fairing compound this time around when I filled in the forward ports. At first I thought I made a BIG mistake because it remained somewhat 'soft' for a day or two. While I was pouting about my blunder, kickin' cans and such the stuff turned solid. So I guess one has to sand it in that time frame when it's not too soft and not too hard. But I was happy as heck to toil a few extra hours with the homemade long board when I found it hard and realized I wouldn't have to resort to digging it out with solvents and a putty knife. I think it took four or five build-ups to get to a 'feel' that I was satisfied with. Yah, it has to go on thin(a big thanks to my dad for 'letting' me work in his bodyshop when I was in highschool-and to think I thought all of that other stuff was more important).
Those Gougeon brothers got most of my income a few years ago. Don't get the impression I don't like their product. I liked it alot, learned from it alot, had alot of fun with it too. Didn't know there was so much one could do with epoxy! Not just boats. But I think it was YOU in one of your previous post regarding 'poxies that convinced me to try one of the less famous labels. Glad I did-saved a bunch of money.
Like the hickey analogy, helps keep the eroticism up when she's all torn apart. That's next year for me now. Too cold here allready. I just cleaned her up really good for winter and will go into pattern making and alternative layout scheming. Oh yeah-account fattening too. Tony G
p.s. lookee here what you've done

[ebb]

looks real nice. Whose stainless hatches are they? With that wide frame they look Belgian or something. From your top view, hard to tell, but they look closer to the deck than the Bomars I chose.

That foredeck hatch looks a size smaller than the one in front of the mast. What's your plan? Mine is where the anchor selection and a half mile of chain will rust.

Glad you found other epoxy sources, especially for the health reasons I once groused about. You know I don't have Absolute proof of the contaminated epoxy thing, but nobody has come forward on that to counter it, so the silence is my 'proof.'

I'm absolutely certain (Assume Is The Mother of All Foulups) that my mailorder supplier can provide an epoxy I can use in 338's builtin sweet water tanks. NOT West System.

And I'm taking a lot on faith and other worker's experiences using their 407 product. That's why I've been so explicit. Around the yard nobody has said anything negative - but the caveat is: Do not use 410 (the tan filler) under a dark painted hull. Not sure what happens, but I assume the paint lifts off.

So this really is a sucker punch to me. Why would you sell something to a bunch of amatuers (professionals aren't going to pay 7/11 prices for cute little boxes) that you can't use in conjunction with the goddam "System"??? You maybe Need the lighter stuff to finish off the fairing with big number grits. Right?

Even if I planned a white hull, would I use something that's going to maybe peel off a thousand hours flawless shine? If the hull gets too hot?

So I'm always going to sweat the 407! And I'm going to have to find a finishing off compound from somewhere else (since I can't trust my own formulations!) I remember Smith & Co used to have very light white two-part fairing compounds. Gotta check it out.

[Tony G]

I forgot all about the water tank issues! That was something I was going to keep an eye on and check into. The mind is a terrible thin to waste. Those hatches are Bomar. One is 16.5 square and the other 13.25 square. Thought they might brighten the place up a bit and move some air through. They are 'seconds' we snagged from Pompanette LLC. Miniscule cast flaws on the spigot that won't show and won't cause problems sealing. Just reaping the benefits of a wasteful society(saved about a case of Glen Livet)or...er...so. But I've sworn to give up my vices for a better boat . Wish we had a yard near here to reap the benefit of experience. Ten minutes of conversation can reveal a whole lot more than ten minutes of reading! That sounds bad-strike that note Tony G

[ebb]

Captain T, Up above here - dunknow what ElCheapo you used, but we do know it was epoxy. I dunknow what epoxy is cheap?? Some paint store type places have two-part epoxy filler in jars, some have a couple nougat bars you cut and mix. Smith&Co make a rot repair kit that has a white filler, none of it is cheap! But depending on the temperature some of these fillers can take a week to harden up.

I just happened to stop by Smith&Co, the plant, where they retail too.
They have a one gallon kit (1/2 and 1/2) for $125 (!) of their Fill-It, which they put in their rot repair kits. But the stuff was originally, and I think it still is, the only ready-made filler in the market, the microbaloons and cabosil and whatever are mixed in already into the two parts. One has some color in it so you know when it's blended. It has a 3 hr pot life at 70 degrees, 16 hrs at 28 degrees. Hey, you minisotans can work clear thru the winter!!! That is if you are filling.

That's the rub. I don't think this will tool any better tham 407. But IMCO it ends up about as hard as the topsides. IT DOES NOT SAG. Steve Smith has a product here, but I don't know if It has yet caught on. I bought a sample to try, $20! I've used the filler for years, just not in this application

I just don't know why certain products become fashionable, like westsystem, others take forever to catch on. I overheard this young athletic sailer, who I've never seen with as much as a scraper in his mit, trying to impress an attractive gal who Was scraping her bottom - he was saying that westsystem was the only good stuff and don't get the junk local stuff from TAP. You know, the stuff I've been working with succesfully for a couple years.

I'll mix up a wad of the Fill-It, try it in a low spot, and report back, Tony.
Not advertised as a fairing filler but will sand to a feather edge. They did make a 'glazing' filler once that had the consistency of coolwhip, I think it had too many lethal solvents in it. Remember it smelled Strong. Smith&Co have a Hazardous Non Waranty Can't Be Made Safe label on they products.

[marymandara]

You know...
If you do not have a huge amount of fairing to do, and are only looking to fill a localized area, you can use Z-spar Splash Zone. Don't use it on anything you aren't going to paint, as the water drippage is a permanent splashzone-colored stain. Does not cake-frost with a spreader lika fairing compound...you sort of squidge it in with wet fingers. Boat Building with play-doh. It does have considerable durability, and it is very sculptable, which can come in handy. also shapes, files, sands very nicely.

Not exactly the stuff for getting rid of little ripples, but there are some times and places that it really is trick stuff.

Dave

[ebb]

Capt Dave,
Looks like I'll have to put on a hat to sneek into westwhatever and take a look at this wonderous dough. Didn't get what you meant about the splash zone and the stain. So what is it, a sandable watermix fixall? It is the minor filling stuff that sands to dust but fills every imperfection - that I'm looking for.

Recall a large tube of one part 3M made years ago. It sanded absolutely S m o o o t h.

My problem with paint fillers is that I think they are too soft to put on the topsides. I mean the hull sides. It's a hard life out there

[marymandara]

For SplashZone, you probably need to go to the fishboat chandelry...I don't think it's "yachty" enough for Westwhatever.

SplashZone is a two-can, two-part, strongly foul smelling underwater cure epoxy product. Industrial Marine-Tex, as it were. Have to mix the two parts (black and bile green) together in roughly equal amounts as needed ---and you have to keep the lump wet! Hands, too! Turns more-or-less OD Green when you have it mixed right. Really good for sculpting and so on like you had to do around your cockpit drain pipes.

Since it has to be wet, it dribbles this OD green juice everywhere...that does a dandy job of permanently staining any porous surface...like paint or gelcoat. It is tough stuff. Not sure it's going to do what you just clarified, though...it IS really handy for a lot of other uses, you ought to give it a try. Thick, tough putty in whatever quantity you feel like mixing...pretty neat.

Being ever the low-tech, non-esoteric cheapskate that I am I have found pretty good success at hull fairing with epoxy resin and balloons(for sandability) with 1/4" milled glass fiber added for strength...to my experience, it sands a lot better than if you put silica in it, and I haven't had any crack or fall off anything I've put it on over the course of quite a few jobs and about a 15 year span. I did it out of frustration once because the silica-filled stuff...well, you know...I was ending up with silica-filled humps surrounded by low spots. I really like to use a DA for that kind of work anymore if there is air to be had, though...cuts faster than an electric RO and has a lot more control...and I am a big fan (itchiness aside) of mill fiber for "structural" fillers, mainly because it's cheap and tough. While I'm sure there is a better mousetrap made, I tend to go with the more-or-less "old school" goods an awful lot as long as I know they do the job adequately...saves a lot of $$$. I'm preaching to the choir...I better just shut up and let ya sing!

Dave

[Tony G]

Both of you two have mentioned adding chopped glass fibers(Ebb) and milled glass fibers(Dave) to the mix. Is this a prepackaged product or home made? I did purchase some milled glass fiber from a supplier. It is HEAVY, dense, grainy, and causes lots of sagging. It makes a good dense plug but it is useless on anything but a horizontal surface. Most curious, Tony G

[ebb]

Thanks Capt Dave,
points well taken, that splashzone sounds fasinatin! Like something to use on iron plate fishing boats and ferrocement. Smith&Co's Fill-It is really aimed at ruogh service too. Smiths's first love, if it can be put like this, was for ferrocement, when they were hot, he came up with CPES (clear penetrating epoxy) as a sealer. Then the woodworkers and home repair guys discovered it. (But never came up with real finesse products like for finishing off the topsides IMCO)

I got epoxy back in the days befor it was for 'public sale' - getting it in containers with codes for labels - and played around with it like it was playdough - and became badly sensitized to it where it attacked the fingers around the nails. Didn't heal for weeks. Don't know that I would stick my fingers in that evil sounding stuff you talk about!!!

I swear latex gloves you get at the plastics supply or hardwear are 2nds or thirds or rejects from the medical suppliers. Gloves will have holes in them or pull apart when pulling them on. They're for dexterity not dipping!


I get milled glass in plastic jars from the local plastics fabrication store. It's heavy glass dust. And when I added it to the mix it near tore itself off the vertical surface! Add that stuff and you loose sandability, it's for plastic rock. I don't use it much. Jars of 'chopped strand' I get are 1/4". I've heard it comes shorter or longer. That and silica is the mish-mash I make up. Use it structurally. It's hairy. If a surface is exposed and need it smooth I press mylar or visqueen against it. I think (I hope!) it is pretty strong stuff! I believe I would use this for molded in backup pads for fittings. I built up the inside of the stem with it, especially around the cutwater, Crazy, huh?

[ebb]

But since this fairing thing has happened here in this far off corner of this site...
I'll just add this:
407 after 3 weeks gets mighty hard. I am using a high grade marine 100% solids low vis laminating epoxy, it is relatively easy to knock down compared to the gelcoat. So you can sand smooth curves. You could get to the high-build primer stage with this, since it does feather, but it's hard to control.
Interlux makes a two part finishing off epoxy called VC that I will locate.
WM has Awlgrip fairing epoxy that can be used exsystem I believe.

I got page 144 out of the Manual blown up again. This time, the stations, the bread slices. When it's bigger you can site the lines or lay a straight edge against them.
There are NO straight lines in the hull except the flats in the keel, and they are curved fore and aft.

The bow was/is very hollow. The part of the bow forward of the little bulkhead. A large triangular area is five fillings by now. The hull at the bulkhead around this area is convex and pretty fair. Aft of the imprint hollows probably caused by the stringer begin. They are fairly fair after three full passes. The bow is hollow, on the port side especially, well under the waterline. It is almost as if the natural hollow of the keel and rise of the bilge extended right up to the stem fitting!

It looks like the only true convex lines on the topsides are those where there are bulkheads inside.

[ebb]

Page 144. Floating above the grid line of Station #5 are a couple of very interesting doodles. One might show some wood trim that is obviously too small, almost flimsey. Actually, it's funny.

The other illustrates an out-turned flange in the hull/deck with some kind of split tube material covering the join. (TOP OF HULL is printed under the drawing.)

Howboutthat!