Capt Mike,
and anybody else,
have deleted these posts because IMCO the propane tanks CANNOT be put in a cockpit locker - there is no way to provide drainage for the locker on port tacks. Regs say that the propane locker must always be free to drain.
Capt Mike,
and anybody else,
have deleted these posts because IMCO the propane tanks CANNOT be put in a cockpit locker - there is no way to provide drainage for the locker on port tacks. Regs say that the propane locker must always be free to drain.
Last edited by ebb; 08-19-2003 at 05:47 PM.
[Can't leave this alone for 5 minutes. Add this to the stew:
Ok, so we can live with the thru hull drain on the outside of the boat - BUT if you are tipped on the other tack the gas can puddle on the cockpit side. What to do? We can't lead a drain out any lower that the cockpit deck, right? What would the regulators say???]
Last edited by ebb; 08-19-2003 at 05:38 PM.
No way can a propane locker go in the cockpit on an Ariel.
[I will leave the above posts alone for the cognisenti and those who might enjoy seeing ebb writhe in mental anguish & embarrasemnt. Tonight I'm going to edit the above posts as radically as allowed.]
LOOK,
Does anybody have anything to say on the subject?
What have others done about the propane situation?
A campstove with the 1# throwaways is certainly an option for non-live-aboards. There's a gizmo you can get for refilling the cannisters - but you have to freeze them first! How about that. Not easy, but do-able for the weekender.
Had to bite the bullet and go to the unmentionable marine suypermarket to get some polysulfide. $10 for a toothpaste sized tube. But on display was as 10# aluminum propane bottle that had brackets welded on it for horizontal mounting. .........11" round, including the brackets, and barely 16" long. ...........So I'm back to thinking about the cockpit locker again!!!
The problem would be how to mount them high up under the seat, create a glassed in 'false' bottom in the locker. And figure out a double drain system or a single drain from the center of the floor to lead out the hull. Any comments? Much appreciated!
Last edited by ebb; 09-08-2003 at 08:57 AM.
Ebb,
Those aluminum bottles sound like a better banana-mouse trap. If they were a few inches smaller in diameter it would be easier to tuck them up under a C-pit seat and vent (I really like your idea there). Have you thought about just biting the bullet and mounting a couple of bottles on the pushpit? Easy, no plug venting readilly available now!
Hey, I'm still way back at the forward hatch-How did you get that footprint riser built up and what's underneath it on the inside. Tony G
J. H. Chriminee! those bottles...maybe the horiz alum Could go in the c'pit seat next to the bridge deck near where the cooker would go. BUT, I'ld only assign them 2 that space to the right of the locker lid. It's fairly useless space unless you're prone to stuffing the locker to the top. So what is avalable as a ready made hatch? NOTHING. So you'ld have to saw out the lid, probably opening not only the top but down the side in front.......Can't face it at this point.
Besides, I don't think, even if you gained a few inches by mounting them high under thw seat that when you're tipped the locker could drain properly. Too close to the waterline. Bummer
Bottles in the pushpit, dressed in blue, be the very last resort. I nearly decided to carry only trailmix on board and a swing-stove with 1# throwaways. No kidding.
The foredeck surround for the hatch. Made a 1/2" liner for the hole, deep enough to tuck the under deck backup strips against it. Then I took the hatch bottom and carpet taped the bottom of it (originally I peeled the tape and stuck on mylar, but the stuff already on the tape releases just as well.) Laboriously wrapped the edge of the bottom, the Bomar is 1/4" high there and rounded too. Clamp it to the liner.
Made up a batch of mishmash. Put the chopped strand in early to get them good and soaked, then add the silica to stiff peaks. Then scrub virgin epoxy into the cavity demolishing the brush. Then use a paper rag towel to wipe any liquid out, don't want the mm to sag. Tuck the goop under the hatch, get it up in the top, you're going to have voids anyway. Leave it rough but not all the way out to the edge, push the fibers in or blade them away. It'll be hardening by now. Mix up plain gel and blade it smooth against the first fill to a close right angle to the hatch. I left it a bit under so that later I could come back with a color coat
Mark the holes, drill them oversize, NOT all the way thru, down to the trim under the deck. Fill with epoxy, there was soak in so the levels fell. Mildly scuff the top of the hardened base and wood and level and fill imperfections with gel. This was the foredeck. Replacement of the hatch in the coach roof was a bit different because of the radical curvature. Gotta go, later!!
Last edited by ebb; 10-07-2003 at 09:54 AM.
Ebb,
Hey on James Baldwin's site one would get the impression that those one pound bottles are what they use!
I think I understand what you wrote about the technique-I'll try it. But it'll have to wait until next spring unless we get some really scarey weather here. Thanks again Ebb Tony G
Capt Tony,
But here's the rub.
Where do you store the canisters?
Some guy used 3" or 4" PVC pipe to stack them in like artillery shells and
festooned short lengths on his stern rail with hose clamps. Looked just like real west marine propane bottles in their blue sunbrella suits. He recycled the empties. That was cool. Keeping the tube full kept them from rattling.
A cruiser might have twelve foot pieces of schedule 40 along the side decks lashed to the toerail. Maybe you could toss them at pirates, one pound propane bombs, by the time you got to micronesia they'ld be empty tho. Where out there do you recycle micro propane bottles, anyway?
How about stowing them in the mast? Nobody thought of That, I betcha! You'ld have to send the mate up the mast every time you had an empty to put in.
Last edited by ebb; 10-07-2003 at 09:16 PM.
Here are a couple of photos of Ebb's new rudder. Design by Alberg. Execution by Borregaard.
And on the inside . . .
Holy Moley, when was THAT?
All those zigzags didn't get translated to existing.
Top third over the bottom two thirds (in area.)
You can see a split in the doorskin, at a right angle to the keel.
It's that top third that comes apart.
The 1" shaft of the real one is split for about a foot in length. Instead of two flat surfaces, one side of the split is keyed about 1/4" X 1/4" proud. Like the key in the groove of the tiller head. Only it's milled in the shaft. The mating half has a groove to receive it. When you put them together it's round again. Has three 1/4" thru holes for 1/4" bolts.
Basically, the blade is halved more or less in conjunction with the split shaft. The strap core at the trailing edge has some machine screws holding it together.
The bottom part is normal welded strap and foam. The shaft is whole down here of course and the gudgeon will pass around the shaft here. near the top of this section. It's about half way up the keel. Naturally I had to fiddle here too. In this case it is not a strap but a split casting that hugs the shaft. It is to be bolted thru the keel in such a way that one side only will detach when unbolted. We'll see.
Generally, the 1/8' strap is welded to the sides of the shaft and ground back at an angle. If you swung the rudder in its theoretical 30 to 35 degrees very little of the strap enters the channel of the keel. But I'm talking thru my hat because 338 has a reworked keel/rudder interface. The heads of the nuts and bolts will swing into the channel space - barely. Also I knew I needed the option to wrap the shaft in glass. The channel has an 1 1/2" radius. Allowing 3/16" if needed around the 1" shaft for wrap.
not worth a whole lot. But if you and I were having a few beers I would propose this.
I'ld scrap this clamshell idea because the glassing is so difficult. If I could have 'seen' into the problem with the models I made, I don't think I would have continued. Once I was welding the rudder I was commited.
A take apart rudder is a good brain exercise. Agreed? If NO use yer curser to exit NOW.
Here, instead of clamshell, let's just cut it across like a loaf of bread.
I would simply make a top half that socketted into the lower half. If you can imagine two straps (1/8" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar) coming off the sides of the shaft and meeting at the trailing edge, you have a long narrow triangle. Make this at the top of the bottom half. It is hollow in there.
Make the mating part of the top half out of the same material but smaller so that it fit snug inside the long narrow hollow. That's a lot of bearing surface. You could have the shaft fit into a self socket also. Might even be four sided, male and female. Maybe that's over kill. Maybe the shaft could merely be cut there, conceptually. Actually the rudder is two separate pieces.
You'ld have a removable fairing piece on the boat or the top of the rudder that would allow the two pieces to be separated, by lifting the top part up. The bottom half would be lifted out of the shoe, and the top would be slided out of the tube. Would the keying of the mating parts have to be any more than two inches deep? Don't think so, And the fiberglassing would be a breeze. I would run it by a structural engineer. Wish I'ld thought of this befor. Beelieve I'll have another pint with my friend here, anybody got a pencil?
But, do you even need the continuous shaft at all? Need the top for the tiller head, need the shaft thru the rudder tube, need the connection down at the shoe. What do you need the middle for? [need something in the middle for the gudgeon strap keeper]
The original rudder, you need the full/split shaft. But with epoxy and glass and welded flat bar the middle part of the shaft is useless extra weight! The original did not have a continuous shaft. An aperture in the rudder might present a minor design adjustment.
1" silicone rod goes for around $30 a foot. Manganese rod is available.
If I had the time...............
Last edited by ebb; 10-10-2003 at 07:40 AM.
so let me get this straight, your rudder is two halves (port and stbd) about the center line of the boat? what is the split shaft for? and how far up/down is it split?
by the way, i dig the shape.
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
" . . .by the way, i dig the shape.
See Alberg's lines drawing in the manual. It's his!
Capt. Mrgnstrn,
Check out post above beginning 'Holy Moley.' Can't make it any clearer without photos.
If the whole rudder had been in two halves, then I guess the whole shaft would have been also, so I went with what I thought was the shortest break in the shaft one could get away with. One side has the small upper half section and the shaft portion what goes up the tube. The other "half" is all the rest of the rudder, the major portion, all of it really except for the upper flap bit. OK? Not yet, huh? Me neither.
Last edited by ebb; 10-08-2003 at 11:28 AM.
OK, I understand where the upper and lower halves of the rudder are separated.
I don't fully understand the shafting, but maybe a few pictures would help.
you used PVC foam for the diagonals, but have you determined if the the whole rudder bouyant or not?
muchas gracias...
Last edited by mrgnstrn; 10-14-2003 at 01:06 PM.
-km
aka, "sell out"
S/V Beyond the Sea
C&C 35 mkIII
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