And the drains leading from the chainlocker:
And the drains leading from the chainlocker:
Last edited by Bill; 05-16-2003 at 02:54 PM.
Finally, Ebb did a handsome job of glassing the tubes that pass through the cockpit sole to the hull (rudder shaft and two aft cockpit drains).
Last edited by Bill; 05-16-2003 at 02:54 PM.
Well-I guess they all just accept it from you by now! But I've got some questions...when are you coming to MN next?When I peeled open the lazarette I was disapointed. Lots of unsaturated glass, huge gaps between the plywood and glass laminates, no where near as structural as I expected, etc., etc.. I am begining to believe Pearson never imagined these boats would last this long and therefore did marginal work. Or did I just get a lemon?
In the first new photo...You've beefed up(read added) the bulkhead between the lazarette and the c-pit. Is that new bulkhead sistered to the factory sort-of one allready there or is it new construction all the way? On 113 that partial filler plywood piece that spans the area from the hull curvature upwards to a horizontal plane about even with the c-pit floor is canted aft big time. I wouldn't be able to sister a plywood bulkhead to it from top to bottom. So I'm wondering if 338 had just as lousy glass work back there and you replaced it or if you had something more substantial and even to begin with. In your earlier posts you stressed the need for strength in that area because of the c-pit reconfiguration and from what I've seen that would mean rebuild.
Up front
Is that a solid epoxy riser in the shape of the foredeck hatch frame or am I seeing things(again)? If it is, how did you get that shape so well? Surely wasn't tooled! Molded insitu?
Down below
In photo #9 I can follow the drain pipes coming from the Pearson anchor chain locker okay but to the right and running mostly vertical there is a slightly curved pipe peeking through the cut-out where the old water tank effluent would have been. Is that more drainage? From the Ebb chain locker perhaps I thought but no, you're having some poly tubs made for rode storage and it couldn't serve them because they are not there in the photo. What the devil is that!!
Photo # 10
Ester, would you look at the pipes on that fella! Are 338's new c-pit drains more of the frp gas pipe used for the forward scuppers? Nice work but here I'm more interested in technique. Do you lower your epoxy and glass, tools etc. down one c-pit hatch then climb in the other and work or did you have help? Devine intervention?
Looks real good, Ebb. Your work on 338 keeps me inspired and motivated way over here in the frozen north. We won't be doing anything as 'radical' as you but then we're just blowin' around some pot holes and you're gonna plant yer toes in some warm foreign sand. Tony G
Something here. I'm rilly glad yer innerested on this remod. I do want feedback, I do want to be called on stuff. I don't want to screw up a gorgeous Alberg design. Sometimes I think the way I express my views is confusing and annoying. Even to myself. Need all the help I can get.
Capt. Tony'
Your aft bulkhead sounds like it deserves a photo here. The bulkhead is a single piece of 3/4 ply. There just might be an extra piece put in as a filler that got dislodged. There is a filler in the OB access hole, around the inside, which allowed mat to be drapped around more easyly when they were finishing the hole. But it is no bigger than the end of the cockpit. It's just filler. The space must have been thought necessary to make it easier to mate the deck/cockpit molding with the hull when assembling the boat. They allowed themselves Plenty of room.
338's sounds somewhat like yours, but I have since found that it is at right angles to the center line, meaning that it was put in square and vertical. However when the farmers put it in they cut it much too small so there was huge gaps on the edges that were indeed stuffed with unsaturated mat and roving. I tore out everything that was loose, cleaned out the holes, filled them with pints of mishmash, radiused the corners and reglassed the bulkhead with x-mat & epoxy and tabbed it to the hull.
Having no engine below, having removed the icebox which in 338 had a large hole cut in the companionway blkhd, I cut a simular hole in the port side. Tho with the seacocks and hose removed from the aft cockpit drains I discovered it was very easy to haul oneself under the c'pit and into the locker areas with the pegboard discarded - to get to the inside of the lazarette bulkhead.
After the blkhd was faired and glassed on both sides, the space between the back of the c'pit well and the blkhd was furred-out and filled and glassed to the blkhd. Did the same at the other end. Thus marrying the cockpit footwell to the bulkheads,
There are stress cracks where the rudder tube comes into the c'pit floor, where Pearson had put very little reinforcement on the underside of the deck. (More may have been a bad idea,) If I wanted to put in 'straight-thru' drains (just like the rudder tube) I felt I had to immobilized whatever possible, to the greatest extent reasonable. I glassed the tubes in first with x-mat going thru the holes with the tube and turning the mat onto the flats outside, Then I laid on another layer of mat over the pipe and up to the inside. The inside of the hull and the underside of the c'pit. Then there is the bugle-shaped sculpting (epoxy/cabosil/chopped strand) and a final layer of mat. The rudder tube got the bugle up top to match the bottom Pearson did - with extra layers of mat. Interesting that the cockpit sole still can flex when walked on - it is about 3/16s thick with strips of plywood matted to the bottom for stiffning. Not a whole lot.
There are, of course, arguable merits to leaving the cockpit suspended and semi-flexible. I chose to lock it all together because I removed the aft bridge (and Mrgnstrn was on my case) Monoque. I warn you that the grinding and prep necessary especially of the hull and the underside to the cockpit structure is beyond the pale, or pail, whatever it is, you have to be Nuts to undertakeit! I had heroic help!
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MORE ABOUT POST #47
Way later EDIT (7/13)
Back in 2007-8 there appeared in a Seacocks thread on the Fuji Yacht Owners Forum (Fuji Yachts Home Page) an exchange
where the three tubes photo was reproduced in that thread and comments where made: anzam1 said, .... "This set up looks pretty failsafe to me and I would not be opposed to something like that on my boat."
BrianC responds: "One serious proviso.....If anyone does this !DO NOT! use all the filler this person has done to create a grossly oversized fillet. All that filler is a weak link in the system. A fillet is certainly needed (glass will not assume a sharp bend and even if it did, glass is strongest when the fibers are straight) but max 1" radius is more than si=ufficient. Even less is sufficient if the glassing is applied spiral fashion. The pix on my site do not shown the way the glass is applied so I will try and get some time shortly to do a mockup for photos that show what I am talking about."
In the thread this is quoted from, which was about thru-hulls and seacocks, nobody commented on what BrianC posted. No right-way-to-do-it
photos appeared.... that this person saw. I think most readers could see that BrianC's experience with FRP was limited. And he also did not know what the situation was under the cockpit in 'this person's' Ariel.
The bell shaped expansions at the top and bottom of the tubes (while perhaps not aesthetically pleasing) are not "FILLETS." Call them bolsters, maybe. They are reinforcement backing for inaccessible holes thru the hull - that can not have valves to shut them off if damaged. They are definitely overbuilt - they probably should be isolated with a protective bulkhead in case a battery ever gets loose when upside down at sea. BUT I thought them pleasing, if not whimsical, because I modeled my additions after Pearson's original free standing rudder tube stalagmite using their bugle reinforcement of the rudder tube where it comes into the Ariel hull at the waterline. Bettered theirs up a bit.... and buttered up the new drains made with 3/32" thick spiral wall gasline epoxy pipe -- into hollow support columns.
Epoxy is used, of course, to upgrade ancient polyester. By definition this is 'dry' construction, as opposed to wet where additions are added to green frp work as the boat is being built at factory, by my definition overbuilding is a good idea. The bell shape widens the dead loads that will occur on this cockpit floor, that also transfer to the hull.
You may notice in the photo, this cockpit has been immobilized with longitudinal bulkheads that marry the free hanging cockpit "bowl" to the hull beneath it.
The rudder tube (with its bell-shaped buildup of matt and who knows what?) was not attached (glued/glassed) to the underside of the cockpit BUT deliberately by Pearson - because Ariel cockpits are hung loose and unsupported - not attached anywhere except higher up where the molding becomes seats and bridgedeck. Had a real problem with that concept!
Since I stabilized the cockpit, I attached the rudder tube to the sole.
ALL the new bell-ends are composed of mishmash (epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand) on top of fiberglass, as describe above here, with more glass cloth or biaxial matt on top of everything to finish. These tubes support compression loads....the cockpit floor -- in A338's case of factory encapsulated plywood strip reinforcement -- still somewhat limber...
Again, not BrianC's textbook construct. But thick backup plates of bullet-proof mishmash is not unknown (see "Fibreglass Boats, by Hugo duPlessis, AdlardColes 1966. Reinforcing frp tubes per se' is not covered there, but it has been my glass bible since the beginning.)
About as strong as I can see how to do.... on my stomach with arms genuflecting.... into that cramped (and soon to be forgotten) corner in the aft end of the cockpit! There will, of course, be an access hatch in the sole into that part of the boat - as there should be. Batteries will be under the bridge-deck where in other Ariel's an Atomic 4 was intended.
Last edited by ebb; 08-14-2017 at 08:40 AM.
OK. I make pretty careful patterns out of poster paper. Then it gets traced onto x-mat. If there are bends I dot lines on the mat so I know exactly where it goes on the work. X-mat* is mat with light roving sewn to it, it is very docile, unlike cloth, it doesn't mind being poked into corners eg. Compound corners a problems but yer likely to do it without getting bubbles. I cut it with scissors -- even wet with resin -- if I get a dart wrong. It is easy to pile on layers. *Biaxial matt comes in a few heavy weights, and also in 'tapes'. This is matt made for epoxy resins.
When you start, it is just stiff enuf to stand against the work upright. So you can test it first if you don't trust yer pattern. It likes to stay where you put it. Then you wet the work, with lots of resin, pat the mat in place, you can briefly reposition, move it around, unlike cloth. The surface stays dry for a short while while you try to find a position to lie in with the container of mix on your chest or perched on yer neck and where you figure the brush will end up at the end of your arm which is on the wrong side of you body. Wetting it out sticks it good to the work and you use the tip of the brush to work out a bubble or flatten a hair or poke it into a corner. A 2 or 2 1/2" china bristle brush fits the tight work best, have more control moving the liguid to the mat. Too much epoxy and it can run out... but it's so thirsty you'll never allow yourself the luxury of too much!
Preferably, you can wet out the matt on plastic film, peel it off, slap it on, press it tight...without dragging a wet brush to your work. You can also make your gloved handy-work look clean and also soak up resin by laying on thin 4 or 6 oz woven glass cloth. Biaxial matt doesn't like handling. You can extend working time on matt by poking and pushing with the chip brush... But you can gloved hand shape & sculpt by cheating with pieces of light weight glass fabric. (However, if you later are going to grind or scrape when set, stay with the matt. Cloth is for finishing.)
When hard, it leaves an extremely rough surface that you cannot easily sand to prep - so you must use no-blush 100% solids epoxy, if like I often do, leave it for a day or two. The matt is a perfect mechanical surface to add to, without prep grinding, IMCO
Clean up accidents and runs and the work area with paper rags and isopropyl alcohol*. I have favorite mixing containers so I wipe them out with alcohol too. Mix Part A and Part B in straight-sided pint containers using a wooden paint stirring stick constantly scrapping the side of the pot. I often decant into a larger pail, and stir some more. The brush won't drown if the juice isn't deep and won't run the handle as much. Don't draw the bristles outward across the edge - pat one side of the loaded brush on the inside of the pail and quickly go to the work befor the brush understands what you're doing and recovers... to drip on your hair.
*Hardware store Methyl alcohol is toxic. It's better to use 91% Isopropyl alcohol from the drug store.
When it's hard, I use Sandvic carbide scrapers, smallest makita angle grinder with those hard-flapper disks, cloth back grit for finger work. Anything shiney: scuff it. Better to work on it first day or two befor it turns hard and glassy.
Hey, you still with me, boy? Wake up, there!!
Last edited by ebb; 07-11-2015 at 10:30 AM.
Ebb
You've mentioned no-blush all solids epoxy...what is your brand?
Great stuff, ebb. Very ingenious.
I've been thinking about adding extra cockpit drains too. However, I'm concerned that seawater might be forced up the short tube into the cockpit. "Ram effect," or something like that. Not alot of water, just an annoying little bit.
I have a friend whose boat does that, but only sometimes. I think it happens when the boat is heeled over and extra crew brings the stern down.
Some people cross the drains to the opposite side. But, that is supposed to make the drains less able to empty the cockpit of boarding seas, which is the whole purpose.
Anyways, nice work there.
What's the name of your baby?
Gentlemen, Thank you.
I did post a reply, but it ain't here!!!
First, Tony, did you get the reply on the beam lam? Hope so.
C'Pete,
I tried to take into account the consequences of putting the rear drains in like they are with the cockpit deck so close to the waterline. [338s forward drains exit aft Above the current waterline, while the rear drains exit aft under the current waterline.] It was a shoot first take the consequences later decision. Ive spent hours looking for a retrofit flapper valve. No wonder Pearson didn't put in rear drains. There are a number of different kinds. Ones at the cockpit deck like a ball in a cage type take up too much of the drain volume. But are right there to keep an eye on.
A power boat exhaust flapper on the bottom side in the water would probably be my choice, but I worry about the pressure of the outside water not allowing the cockpit to evacuate. So nix that. I'm thinking the flapper idea could be adapted to the cockpit deck drain. But again, at what cost to emptying the c'pit quickly?
So, how about a sliding ss or bronze drain plate that could slide open fully when needed. It would be captured under a flange, the flange screwed like any fitting to the deck. Yah shure, there are design considerations here and a month or two of design time and model making, etc. For the moment, when I go sailing (OH GLORIOUS DAY) I'll screw shower drains over the holes. Something will come up. Hopefully not too much briney.
I was thinking, the holes might make annoying gurggling sounds, as well.
Crossing the drains could be done couldn't it? Would one use hose? Probably dangerous in the back without ready access. Seacocks: impossible. What considerations are there at the companionway in a Commander? It would be possible to do a 'hard' install in the back with angles and pipe. PVC and epoxy mate well, I've heard. It IS tight back there!
The ball in a cage check valve is worth looking into. There are a couple, anyway, and if I recall, they are a fitting - in that they can be incorporated into normal or existing plumbing.
"Life is hard, but it sure is a lot of fun!"
Last edited by ebb; 05-25-2003 at 10:04 AM.
Tony, haven't heard on several of your issues. Here is something on the after cockpit bulkhead.
On the 2nd page of this thread about half way down is one of Bill's photos from the first shoot that shows 338's cockpit with the aft 'bridge' cut away. It clearly shows the sides of the vertical hatch that provided access to the OB well and lazarette. The bulkhead is the ply that is closest to the inside of the lazarette. The ply that is closest to the cockpit is the filler.
The filler, in 338, is no wider or any longer than the well. The factory put it in to enable the drapping of the mat around the hatch there when they were closing the boat in. I suppose it could be a different shape in yours.
Is this the piece that came loose in 113? I really don't see any way the bulkhead could have moved even if there is lot of unsaturated garbaqe along the hull inside under the funky tabbing. The funky tabbing they never thought anybody would see - except you and me! The lazarette bulkhead is also tabbed to the hull on the laz. side. So it is very secure.
#6 photo shows the Bomar riser made from the mahogany strip liner in the hole with mishmash on the outside under the hatch bottom.
#9 shows the access under the chain locker, Just access. Three tubes: Straight one on left comes from drain hole in forepeak. Bent one on right sweeps up to hole in chain locker. Both will continue by conduit under the sole to the sump and end in threaded ball cocks. Short upright is a piece of the sonar model which is sculpted into the stem. Cheers................Ebb
Ebb
I'm still here. Maybe this weekend I can get some pics loaded to the site and that may flesh out the piece of usless ply I've been asking about. Except now that I've ground away all the unsaturated roving and glass it doesn't look as scary. Still has to go! After all we gotta clear that area for a new mizzen mast step just in case. Why did you 86 the inboard for an outboard again?
Capt. T,
338 came from the factory with an OB well. What appears to be an extra large hole is what it looks like after the box or collar or sides of the well were removed. It was ground back even further when it was discovered that the hull mold was made with the OB hole - you know, like the deck mold was made with the hatch holes in place - but just a flange - and the well sides added later after the deck was attached to the boat.
Also ground that flange away which was gel coated and incorporated into the joining process. Didn't want to rely on old polyester pasted onto gel coat. The well also looked like later alterations had been done.
I felt the Yamaha 8/4. had to be custom fitted because it's so big and heavy.
What was below at the bottom of the companionway in 338 and in thw way of any access were the stubbed off factory straight-thrus and later added seacocks with hose etc. Is was C'Pete who pointed out the many connecting points (that can go wrong) like clamps, hose, valves etc. I committed early on to continuing with the OB and wanted the space below the c'pit for stowage. Drains went out the back.
When Capt. Brent thought about putting his batteries under the cockpit, I thought it a great idea. So batteries where the BETA diesel would go became my plan - I have the flush deck access hatch for the c'pit. The framing under the cockpit for the bats and rather large hatch will create substancial strength and rigidity.
The long answer
Hope you are proceeding with your upgrade!!!!!
Paid another visit to #338 and here are the results.
The first photos are of the "motor clamp board" being installed at the forward end of the ob well . . from below
And from above (ie., from the cockpit)
Next, we have the fuel tanks (the starboard side is shown). The hold approximately 8 gal each.
Here is the top of the tank and lid assembly as modeled by the captain ..
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