Outboard Discussions

[Tony G]

I'm still back at the lifting davit, Ebb. Why do you think you will need one? With your modified outboard well you shouldn't need the added expense, clutter or weight. With regards to lifting eyes, add your own. Or make a lifting 'harness' out of webbing or some other suitable material.

As far as zincs go I admit I know very little so far. All metal parts protected by a (singular) zinc need to be in contact with each other correct? So are all parts of a lower unit 'conductive' with each other? Is that the reason you want to run a wire from a zinc into the power head? Go easy on me man, I'm just a kid!

[ebb]

Tony,
Yer right. That davit thingy is a bit of extra gear and weight.
A gun tackle on the boom would be cool IF the boom end was above the OB well,
which it certainly isn't.
Once came upon a blog where the guy had actually made an extension for his boom for the purpose of raising his OB.

There are other possibilities. For instance if a boom gallows* is fitted a leg might support a davit arm and gun tackle. Your ab normal geezer isn't going to be able to haul a 110# Yamaha outta the hole. To dismount the behemoth it will have to be lifted with one hand on the tackle, the propeller and fin carefully slewed and guided with the other hand around stuff, and swung over the toerail onto the dock or even into a dinghy. Who knows, but more controlled the better.

Also a davit might be useful for other weighty issues that have to be eased aboard.
Jerry cans or a sodden crew!!!

Really need a kicker half the weight.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
*Can see a boom gallows substituting for the stern pulpit on litlgull, leaving the stern without tubing.
It also would make an important high safety bar in the rear of the cockpit
where imco something strong to hold on to while standing is really a plus.
It also can make it convenient to attach various canopies and privacy enclosures for the cockpit.
The gallow's legs would make it possible to finesse an overweight OB over either side of the Ariel.
Whether a boom gallows is needed if a rigid vang is on the boom is questionable.
Maybe this needs another thread???

[commanderpete]

Maybe one of those "grouper" or guppy" zincs could help with the corrosion issues. Perhaps a homemade model.

Those old Yamaha 2 stroke outboard lower units are very good about surviving in salt water. I've been casually looking for a backup to my 1992 8 horse. A used 6 hp Yamaha longshaft outboard is very difficult to find. The 8 hp is even more rare. It seems like a good one sells for about $500-$700

[ebb]

Here's a 1995 paper on ethanol gas and fuel phasing.
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/waterphs.pdf

that may not come up. But if you visit
google> Marine Stabil - iboats Boating Forums
you'll find a lively and informed discussion on
the products you probably need to keep the gasoline in your tank from getting sicker than it already is.
As I understand it: Stabil RED is for 'winterizing' the gasoline in the tank.
Stabil BLUE is used (with alcohol contaminated gas) while running during the time you are using the motor. It keeps the carborator clean. Don't know what the drill is?

There is a blueline in there to the paper.

We're advised to filter everything going into tanks, including gasoline.
If gasohol can 'phase'/separate into gasoline and ethanol-water,
why not do it intentionally BEFOR we put it into the tank?
Remove the corn lobby crap befor it fouls the motor???

Ethanol is recreational stuff. It's called vodka when you buy it in a bottle.
Of course gasoline poisons it.
There are about 13OZ of ethanol in a gallon of gasohol.

Did you know that water in tankers and pipelines is such a problem in gasohol delivery
that the ethanol is added to the delivery tanker just befor it goes to the gas station.
That is, NOT at the refinery. Ethanol is very attractive to water.
When we buy the stuff we have to be aware of its shelf-life. Storage is a huge problem.
Condensation at a station is a problem, especially if the draw is from the bottom of a tank where ethanol has blended itself with water.
Same problem in a red can.


Not sure, but Stabil as an 'gas drier' would essentially be ISOPROPYL alcohol which will solubilize the H2O but also recombine/blend back into gasohol. And the carburator will like it.
Magic. That's why we keep adding the stuff to the tank.
$$$$$$

[c_amos]

I found a 'new' 1999 Yamaha 6hp, 2stroke 2 cyl.

I am turning my back on the 'new' Mercury / Thoatsu / Nissan 6hp 4 stroke I just purchased.... it is simply not as good of a motor for our boats then the Yamaha.

I like the (slightly) less fuel use, but the vibration, power, weight, are not living up to my expectations.


The fuel use (in real numbers) between my old (identical) Yamaha 2 stroke and the 4 stroke show only a slight savings... the 2 stroke did speeds at less then 1/3 throttle that I need 3/4 throttle on the 4 stroke to get (I have tried 2 different props).


Anyway, just another data point for the discussion.

[ebb]

What a great and rare find.
I'm wondering if there is an apples to oranges comparison here?

Really! I don't know.

But there is a differnce between a standard prop and a high thrust prop.
Also that lower units can be standard or more robust. Is this important?
I understand that our boats are small enough to use a standard OB.
Was this taken into account? Is it important?
Certain that a 2stroke has MORE vibration than a 4stroke. Right?

google> prop size for sailboat outboard
boat design forums

The thread begins with 'liz' asking what to power a 24' 6000LB disp
with a 9.9 4stroke long shaft Yamaha behind the boat's rudder. [Could be an Alberg....]

last poster on thread, alan white:
"Your ratio is 2.92 : 1\The engine RPM is about 5500
Your motor appears to take a max diameter of 10" or so.
The most efficient prop would be too large to fit as a three blade,
so a four blade is recpmmended.
The recommended pitch is 8.5."

He's talking about a Yamaha 9.9 here, not the one you found, Craig.
A decade ago and still unused, I choose an 8HP Yamaha (said to be a choked down 9.9) that weighs in at 110LBS.

That is utterly rediculous, and it is utterly rediculous I customed litlgull's rear end to fit this monster. I know I will want and NEED a motor HALF the weight.
SOON I will also be looking for a 2-stroke, when I finally get on the boat.

We pointed this out befor:
If you can't get the 4stroke to run, it has to go back to the dealer.

With a 2stroke, you can do regular maintenance and tinker to keep it going.
And a 6 or even 8HP 2stroke won't require a crane to lift it out of the well.


Some people have all the luck!

[c_amos]

Dunno ebb,

My old Yamaha 6 hp worked well with the stock (7x8 IIRC) prop, when I switched to the 'high thrust' (also 6x8) mickey mouse ear prop the rpm did not change, but the backing was improved.

When I bought the tohatsu, I tried it with the stock prop which was something like 7x8, I was underwhenmed with this, it did not seem to want to turn up, so I poped for the expensive 5.99 x 8 'high thrust' prop (you can see the details earlier in this thread)... it was not much better.

I suspect I might have been happy with the tohatsu, had I not been spoiled by the Yamaha. I really think your answer of the 8hp (2 cyl) Yamaha with the high thrust arrangement is probably going to prove to be a wonderful motor for Lil Gull. I am glad many others find the 4 stroke Merc/Nissan/Tohatsu solution to work out for them... I am not happy with it myself.

I will do some testing with both motors though, I expect to conduct some rather scientific experiments where I force myself to motor a standard course with both (one at a time of course) to prove out the fuel use issue.

It is interesting to note, the 4 stroke has to work well higher in the RPM range to acheive hull speed then the 2 stroke did... I suspect this will negate some of the fuel savings. I KNOW from experience that the (2 cyl) 2 stroke is smoother then the (1 cyl) 4 stroke... and frankly I doubt that it is any louder (maybe I can barrow a db meter to see for sure). The Yamaha always reminded me of a cyl diesel with it's mechanical drone... not un unpleasant sound to me.

We will see, stay tuned for further updates... if nothing else, I do tend to go on (and sometimes on and on) about what ever I find.

[Rico]

I am very curious...

Smoother than the 4 stroke, eh? - Likely noisier???
What's the weight of the Yamaha?
Can you give me model number?

[c_amos]

I am very curious...

Smoother than the 4 stroke, eh? -

Yes, I suspect the reason it is more smooth is because it has 2 cyl, while the 4 stroke has one.

The Tohatsu/Mercury/Nissan is not a bad motor, just not as refined as the Yamaha.

The Yamaha 4 stroke (2 cyl) is silky smooth, in the 6, 8, and 9.9 models. (note: I think we missed it, but I think there is a new Yamaha 6hp 1 cyl also).

Likely noisier???
What's the weight of the Yamaha?
Can you give me model number?

They both weigh 55-60#, and the yamaha makes less noise (at least IMHO) since it does not need to run wide open to get to hull speed.

[ebb]

Two - Stroke Outboard Restrictions - Moderated Discussion Areas
continuouswave.com/ubb/Forum/HTML/009798html

This is a great 'literate' exchange between macho OB owners.
Often hilarious. often informative.
Great repartee, great exchanges between the posters
who actually stay on subject.

Not much at our level of horspower,
but everything seems to be covered - including explaining star ratings on current OBs.
It cleared the air for me!

Manufacturers, if they will continue to make 2-strokes, will have to make them cleaner running.
Environmental concerns and regs force makers into producing better products.
Hopefully a clean running, morally correct, 2-stoke is right around the corner.
I probably will be unable to afford it.

[agua dulce]

bkeegel2
how does the motor fit in the laz?
i have a 4-strk 6 merc
i think anything bigger would b a pain to mount/dismount?

[Bill]

how does the motor fit in the laz?

A review of the thread should answer that question.

[agua dulce]

Sorry, the dh hijacked my username. He's an incredibly smart man, but in a Chesterton sort of way. ("Am at Market Harborough, where ought I to be?") I already told him he'd have to get his own name, because between my asking dumb questions and his asking questions dumb, if it appears to all be coming from one person, we'll be booted right out of here!

[pbryant]

Nissan Sailpro Issues

Dissolving propellers: I purchased a Nissan 6 HP long shaft "Sailpro" in February: 5 months ago. While painting my boat, I had no choice but to leave it in the water. In six weeks of immersion in sea water, the prop nearly dissolved. The paint was gone, and the leading edges of the blades were reduced to a powdery state that you could rub off with your fingers. The zinc was partly eroded - but still about 75% intact. What I found was the hub nut was finger loose - the prop was being held on by the splines and the cotter pin. The zinc isn't on the prop, and if there isn't adequate electrical continuity between the prop and the zinc, the zinc won't protect the electrically-unbonded propeller.

To their credit, Nissan support sent me a replacement prop, which has yet to show corrosion after I installed it and applied a reasonable amount of torque to the hub nut. You might want to look at your prop....

Failed starter pull cords: Sailing into the harbor one particularly windy day, I followed my usual procedure of keeping my sails active until I was sure I'd get into the harbor. I'm a commercial airplane pilot, and one of the first lessons any good flight instructor teaches is: "never trust an engine." With my slip in sight, I entered the few moments where an engine failure would be especially hazardous (pilings downwind, no room to set an anchor scope, wind directly off my bow) and I pulled down sail in the luff. Just as I got my main down... the engine died. I just shrugged because the idle was a little low and all it took was one pull to restart the engine. So... I reached back and gave the handle a pull --- and it came off in my hand -- while I watched the pull cord go ZING! back into the the engine case. With no propulsion, a 20 knot wind, 15 foot high concrete pilings one boat length away, and little steerage, I watched horrified as my bow turned 180 degrees and the boat headed straight for the stern of the San Mateo County Sheriff's motorboat in it's slip. Poseidon took pity on me and guided my boat into two concrete pilings, and after my boat played pinball with the concrete and made loud scraping sounds, landed me in the only vacant slip with nothing more than ugly black streaks on my (freshly painted) hull.

I opened the pull handle by removing the metal insert in its center and found one inch of the severed pull cord inside, tied with a half hitch. The other side of the metal insert (facing the engine) had a stamped hole through which the cord passed, which has a metal edge as sharp as a knife! You could cut your fingers on it! The other end of the pull cord (once I got it out of the engine) had all the strands cut and splayed such that it was obvious a few strands were cut each time the cord was pulled. And since the pull cord handle conceals the back end of the metal insert, there was no way to detect the failure by inspecting it - without completely disassembling the handle. LOOK INSIDE YOUR PULL HANDLE! Pry the metal insert out and check the condition of the pull cord as it passes through the hole. I estimate that I have only pulled that cord about 50 times since I bought the engine.

My retrofit: 1) Buy one short piece of wooden dowel about one inch in diameter. 2) Cut it about four inches long. 3) Drill a hole in the center. 4) Pass the pull cord through the hole and tie a proper stopper knot. Cost: one dollar. I can now visually inspect the cord's condition.

I called Nissan Support and reported the problem. They said it's unlikely that Nissan will ever fix the defect. I reported it as well to my dealer, who said it's Nissan's problem.

Never trust an engine!

Engine "swing"

The Nissan outboard (probably all outboards) is designed to swing up (aft) when in forward or neutral. That's a great feature on a dingy - prevents the prop from striking the bottom. It's a nasty feature in a sailboat where the keel is deeper in the water than the prop, and consequently the prop isn't vulnerable to striking the bottom (except when moving astern - where the engine can't swing up anyway). So, sailing along at 5 or 6 knots has the effect of causing the prop end of the engine to swing waaay aft, making it a real challenge to access the pull starter. Plus, the engine doesn't seem to start when it's swung that far past vertical (carb floats cutting off the fuel?). One other bad side effect is, because of the angle of the drive shaft, the shaft deflects water into the compartment. Solution: drill two through holes in the engine well and install a chain that prevents the engine drive shaft from swinging aft. Why don't the geniuses who designed an engine specifically marketed for sailboats (not dingys) allow the user to manually lock the swinging mechanism - just as it locks automatically in reverse?

Longitudinal balance:

After adding 65 pounds of engine and 36 pounds of fuel (6 gallons), my Ariel's bow was way up in the air and she was dragging her stern. I added 200 pounds of lead shot to the compartment that used to contain the water tank (long gone). Now she's back on her lines.

I hate engines. That's why I sail. I regard them as a crutch to compensate for poor sailing skills and badly designed marinas. They are at best a necessary evil. I'm considering an inboard electric propulsion retrofit. Has anyone tried that on an Ariel?

[Commander 147]

[QUOTE=pbryant;23434 I hate engines. That's why I sail. I regard them as a crutch to compensate for poor sailing skills and badly designed marinas. They are at best a necessary evil. I'm considering an inboard electric propulsion retrofit. Has anyone tried that on an Ariel?[/QUOTE]

Well maybe not an Ariel but on commanders yes. Check out Commander 227's gallery page. Also I am doing one on Destiny and in my gallery page (Commander 147) you can see the motor and some of the parts for the drive I will be installing.