Anchor roller

[ebb]

Jerry, REALLY appreciate your thoughtful critique.
This especially since we are talking about a specific piece of gear you may have little interest in.

(1) Not much of the 'straight' part of the shank actually sits on the channel surface. There is a slight curve in the shank. And at the end there is a slight bump out where the shackles are pinned. So it really rests on two points METAL to METAL. At the back end and more importantly on the channel bottom where it ends and the cheeks begin. The roller center is 1/8" below the metal. Bad.

This is a great observation of yours, that there should be no metal contact at this wear point in the channel. The roller ( without changing the fairly close tolerances in the design) can be moved up the 3/16" needed to insure the anchor shank - its rather hard edged and narrow shape - is resting on the plastic.
My thoughts are that this is a mistake that as a result of your critique is going to be designed out of existence in the final model. Fantastic!
From the same trailer parts source, flat thick plates and solid dowels of p.urethane are available. The plate can be cut and used in chaffing spots. Dowels can be shaped on a lathe and make rollers of any dimension.

(2) The anchor does wiggle in the width of the roller housing, not easily because of the anchor weight and does not tilt far enough over to the sides to scrape them. imco. Of course it's not possible to do a real metal to metal test, the model being composed of 5min epoxy and 3'16" doorskin and rather fragile.
The anchor shank sits naturally, if a little loosely, in the flat bottom of the V-grooves - but in the center of the rollers. The shank engages both rollers when housed. The fluke doesn't look like it will wander from its location once the shank end is pinned. Once unpinned the Supreme is free to move but its weight will tend to keep the shank/chain/and line in the groove when launching.
When sailing with the anhcor in the roller a couple pieces of foam on each side of the shank should keep the anchor upright and still.
A plus, if this system works, is that the anchor is neutrally housed without tension on the chain or line. Immobilized in the roller the anchor can have other lengths of chain and line attached without problem.

Hauling in the anchor and have it enter the rollers correctly is another kettle - as the anchor could be twisting and turning due to line and chain twist. But maybe that's a problem with all anchor retrievals?
Once the shank reaches the first roller I think the anchor will quiet down. But there is nothing like experience. Or a better idea!!!
The more forward and lower poly roller will get the anchor to turn sooner than a single roller.
It doesn't have turn 90 degrees to get it to start going into the channel. Maybe that also helps the anchor find its position easier as it's pull up and in.
BUT I see what you mean! The anchor dangling from the roller as it enters or leaves is free to hit or scrape the sides of the channel AND ALSO THE LOOP. And the stem of the boat.... I don't know how this is avoided?
Nature of the beast?

Will take a closer look at the tube and loop. This idea generated out of using aluminum for the whole roller assembly - a way to strengthen those long flat ends that might get stressed with a side pull of chain or warp. The polyurethane rollers do all fair-leading - unlike Windline or Kingston models that have an outward bend in the metal cheek pieces. Hate to give up the side pipes and 180 loop in a galvanized anchor roller.
The loop at the moment can be moved up or down. When the sweet spot is found, a method of attachment must be found, maybe a fastening drilled through the pipe and loop. I'm sure
that the loop should removable without too much fuss so that the anchor and gear can be lifted out of its cradle.

Have had a little bit of experience with hot dip galvanizing. The good traditional stuff can take rough handling. Like you expect from the anchor itself. Real hot dip won't readily chip off like you see on some bargain anchors. Constant rubbing in one place is to be avoided. Basically galvanised iron is a forgiving combo. Exposed iron in a scrape or spot will often not rust because of the influence of the surrounding bonded zinc coating.

Imco there will be less problem with a hot dip roller than with stainless or aluminum, both
finicky and undependable.

Most Windline and Kingston anchor rollers are made with single sheet stamping. The roller is designed to avoid welding.
This Supremo Roller housing has to be fabricated. Welded. Because it obviously can't be folded flat. Two ways: weld it up from separate flat shaped pieces.
A second way is to bend the sides and half a channel and weld them together down the middle.

Numbers:
Channel flat from end to the drop roller angle = 14 5/8".
Total length from pipes to end...................... = 19 3/4".
Bottom of cheek to top of channel................. = 7 1/2".
OD width of fitting....................................... = 3 3/16"
Poly rollers are 2 3/4" W with well rounded 3" D ends.
The V-roove bottom has a 1 1/2" D with a flat of 5/8"

An important measure is the apparent clearance from the sharp tip of the Supreme to the stem of the boat when the anchor is housed. This leaves about 10 1/2" inboard to attach the fixture. And is speculative. Nevertheless that leaves little channel to bolt to the deck because half of the roller is bowsprited. The roller might be installed to a side away from the stem - but still too close for comfort.
One solution would be to design a longer channel with a 1/4-5/16" chain link pawl at the end, still keeping the two pin hole bump-up to lock in the anchor shank. Could make the channel 4 or 5" longer which might counter the cantlever effect with more thru-deck attachment.
Longer channel equals more weight.

Many thanks for your thoughts!

[Commander 147]

A plus if this system works is that the anchor is neutrally housed without tension on the chain or line.

I agree I really like that aspect of it.

Ebb could you rig your model someplace that would allow you to drop the anchor to the ground and pull it up several times to see how the anchor reacts as you lift it? For example what happens when the anchor comes up with the fluke pointed away from the boat? Does it start into the rollers and come up until the shank changes direction from verticle to horizontal and how does it act when it flips around? I'm a firm believer in testing every aspect of something in the design stage.

One solution would be to design a longer channel with a 1/4/5/16" chain link pawl at the end, still keeping the two pin hole bump-up to lock the anchor shank. Could make the channel 4 or 5" longer which might counter the cantlever effect with more thru-deck attachment.

The build it stronger than it ever needs to be part of me thinks this would be a good idea. How much extra weight could you be talking about? Maybe 4 to 5 lbs. max.

[ebb]

Jerry,
When we hang the Supreme with a rope from its shackle, the anchor has a "tendency" to come into the loading postition. With the shackle directly over the tip of the fluke.

The fluke points to where the shackle is on the head of the shank with the concave shank correctly in line to being pulled over the rollers. Well, of course it does! On a calm day.
However on your Bouncing Betty in Beaufort 6 you are going to have to get lucky.
Or be there to guide it in and over the wheelies.
I can see snagging the marvelous hoop with a boathook to help guide the anchor to the wheels where I'd expect the V-grooves to direct and correct the shank upright if it is coming up sideways. Haven't done any of this.
But the anchor is too influenced by its weight and wide blade to want to come into the rollers sideways.
And the 'natural' curve of the shank means that its least resistance is the inside of the curve.
Can't see the anchor ever coming in on the convex or bowed side of the shank. Never happen!

Have seen in a video of the Supreme being hauled up by a windlass into a Bruce Windline.
The fluke point is always toward the stem of the boat.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Went to google to find that video. Nope.
Did find that Rocna is still piggy-backed onto the Manson Supreme success. I specified Manson alone in my google search... but the second website on the first page is a Peter Smith
I'm NOT an anchorSmith fan. To me its like those infinite off subject China sites that always show up uninvited to the party.
Not to remind folks that the Shlocna is now a Chinese anchor!

Went to the Manson site and explored their testimonials for the Supreme. 100% New Zealand anchor.
Any photos, especially those of the anchor in a roller are postage stamp sized and cannot be zoomed. #%!!$^%$&%&^!!!
There is NO video on retrieving OR dropping the anchor. Just hype.
In any other situation I would consider this suspect, as obviously the anchor holder is an important issue. But Manson doesn't want
me to see how their anchors sit in off the shelf rollers. On some forums housed Supremes look precarious and unhappy.
There are some non-detailed custom launching devises.... Nothing for the bucket proletariat and.... inquiring minds.

[c_amos]

.....Did find that Rocna is still piggy-backed onto the Manson Supreme success.....

Yup. Oh the drama as the Mocna guys try to defend their Chinese steel product...

... I would not trust my ship to it!

---------

You have (as we all have become accustomed to) elevated the anchor roller to an art form. Hat's off to you as always.

FWIW,

I have done a whole bunch of retrievals in different conditions... the Manson will 'self load' pretty well... once it comes up to the roller on my bow, it rarely tries to load upside down... if so I can just lower it and turn the chain slightly and gravity takes over.

If I can help in any way, let me know... I know my name is still mud on the board for not finding the pictures I took of your boat when I was out there... I can probably take some video of lowering and raising the anchor if it would do you any good? Let me know what you need... give me an excuse to goo goof around on the boat.

I am sure you are accounting for the forward radius of the roller (sides). Might want to flare them out... straight edges will be tough with the chain, and will chaff line rode quickly.

Congrats on a great design... if your going into production, let me know what I owe you for the 2nd one.

[ebb]

Craig, since you are our active SUPREME research and development director....
it's great to hear from you.
I hope you are planning another voyage soon that we all can go along on!

I wonder if this 25# Manson would become more popular with our ships if an anchor roller came with it.
But you seem happy enough with your Windline.
It certainly is not a weighty fixture and if it works for you this ole man is going to listen.

It was fun to make something tailored to the Supreme.
Translating that 3D doorskin sketch into something that will actually work is the hard part.
Can't do it myself.
Touched on a very strong low carbon steel alloy called 4130. It has stainless elements in it, like chromium and molybdenum, but it isn't stainless. Tubes of the alloy are used by guys building aircraft. It's easy to weld and commonly available. The alloy has been used in anchor flukes.

[LATER EDIT. Have removed a paragraph here after discovering that 4130 is essentially NOT galvanizable because of its alloy structure. Nickel needs to be included in the formula to get a zinc coating to stick good. Won't happen with this aircraft steel. Nickel containing 300 series stainless steels can be galvanized. How bout that?
If I find the time 1018 cold rolled mild steel looks promising for a virtual galvanized model.
tensile yield strength for 1018 mild steel is 53,700psi. 316 stainless tensile is 60,200psi. Close enough for a cigar???
Hot dip galvanizing is typically a paper thin 4mil (1/256 of an inch) coating. It chemically bonds with the steel and has a predicted service life of 75 YEARS
We can use s.s bolts with it. what else can we ask?]

The big cheeks (jowls) of the model makes it impossible for the roller body to be stamped from a single flat sheet like the URM3
The shape of the housing could be made in two pieces with a nice clean right angle press bend on the sides that would meet in center channel and welded together.

I figured most twisting moment of the housing happens when the anchor is being hauled in. The jowls are welded together between the rollers with a piece of angle, So if it's going to move, both sides of the roller assembly have to move.

I'm sorry I was so dumb as not to show the rollers inside with a photo.

The bottom roller is as low as it can go. Some of the poly rim is below the metal cheeks. Good for line but also keeps the anchor from scraping the housing. If the line is in the groove and more or less straight down it can skew almost 90 degrees either side in the nicely rounded poly roller - near no metal.
When the anchor line is pulled out above the lower roller, where it might be with a lot of scope out in a blow, the line is cradled in the upper V-roller - if the line goes off to one side it is met with the radius of the tubes.
Certainly good chaffing gear is needed if the housing is used while anchoring.

Played around with the location and angle of the tubes to best locate the loop.
It seemed to work out best as in the model with a wildly arcing anchor shaft coming aboard. Don't know what will happen to the loop if the anchor is let go in a freefall!
As it is the straight-up loop is convenient to remove from this position. We can make it so the height is adjustable and removable.
The model has the loop holder tubes shaved flat on the bearing side which makes the smaller seam at the leading edge easy to weld closed - and by radiusing the edge of the metal cheek and weld smooth it will fair into a seamless curve with the tubes.

The cheeks can't be bent out like the Windline ULB because the poly rollers are there. They need the flat to ride against to guide chain line, shackes and anchor.
The leading edge of the cheeks could have been curved outward instead of having tubes welded there.
However, tubes along that leading edge makes for a convenient dual socket for the loop. Seemed like a no brainer.
It turns out that the transition from the lower plastic roller to the metal tubing out front there is also 'seamless,' without a sharp edge.
The tubes together with the welded angle crosspiece hopefully makes the dual roller cheek assembly plenty strong.
Strength with insurance is a problem in an open channel anchor housing.
There is no way to box the channel
Have to depend on the strength of the material to keep its intended shape.
One thing with steel though is that if it gets bent we can bang it back into submission.



Can this anchor roller be used with a similar sized Bruce or Delta? Or any other anchor? It would have to be able to bring aboard ANY anchor. Even a Crocna!
Ideas?

[ebb]

Craig has posted the latest in the controversy between these two rollbar anchors. n the New Generation Anchor thread.
[This is OUR Craig Amos. Not Craig Smith, the Rocna ninja.]

Rocna has been buried and getting fat like a tick on a dog in Manson's hide for years.

The war has heated up ever since Rocna went to China - culminating in a recent challenge by Manson
to each have an anchor of similar weight tested side by side on a metal testing machine by an independant company.

ROCNA DID NOT ACCEPT THE FACE OFF.

The testers then used off the shelf anchors from a vendor and put them on the Rack.

The testing machine tore both brands of anchor apart!
Numbers proving that the Manson Supreme was indeed more resistant to torture,

Craig Amos has prefaced his post with a comical photo of a limp Rocna whose shank is bent like made of clay. Hard to believe it's real!
Could be that it's actually a strange deep sea manta ray caught by its tail and winched up into a questionable anchor bow roller.

Go see it at the New Generation Anchor thread here in these Dissussion pages.

Craig has been testing the Supreme on his cruising Ariel for five years now
- without a problem.
The Manson, in Craig's most extreme evaluation yet, held its ground (as advertised) throughout a name brand hurricane.

Has me convinced, by golly!