'Faith' gets a new composting head

[c_amos]

I am truly dissapointed to report that Faith's Natures Head has been removed and is stting in my dining room as I type this.

No, not for any failure in design or any aspect of the deployment that was overlooked. It has been removed simply because I am unable / not allowed to sand / chip / grind paint & fiberglass and can see no way to make this work without removing the raised step the head sits on.

Here are a couple of pictures of the head installed on the 'step';


Here is another

As you can see, the head it's self fits in there pretty well. I could sit and use it (never did more then 'simulations'). I LIKE the construction, and the hardware. I will say that as much as even a cheepskate like me might complain about the price I think these guys got it right.

Here are the specific problems with a 'drop in' install aboard an Ariel.

1. The height: The seat is 20+" above the raised step provided for the head on the Ariel. This placed my feet just shy of the floor and my head just short of the overhead. A taller person might have reached the floor with his feet, but also found the overhead with his head. Droppiong the raised head platform to the same level as the remainder of the V-Berth sole would fix this. It would also move the head slightly aft since the 'V' of the hull would move aft the lower you go. It would not seem to be difficult work, but messy... too messy for me to do currently. (see this post for details).

2. The Width at the air intake / discharge. In the stock location these inlets line up with the trim at the edge of the v-berth. If the floor were lowered this would resolve in a wonderful way... the vent hose would route under the V-berth nicely.

I will re-visit this solution in the future... when I am better able to work with the necessary materials.

[ebb]

Craig, Find a Harbor Freight store* and get their ocillating cutting tool.
It's a small hand-held corded power tool that has a stepped, dog-legged, straight in vibrating cutter.
There are a variety of other accessories, but the one you're interested in is the offset blade whot has the teeth in front on its leading edge. You just point the blade and you're cutting that little deck out like magic.
These tools throw no dust to speak of, but you might keep a small vac going while cutting inside the V-berth..
It is essentially a one hand tool.

Fein multi-master was the first. Now Rockwell, Portercable, Craftsman, Bosch and others have their version. Fein is $300 plus - with astronomical prices for replacement blades. The imatators are $100 plus. Harbor Freight (can't find their rag just now) probably has the tool for $30.

Imco these dremels-on-steroids are way over-rated as 'multi-function'-tools.
BUT there are two things this kind of cutting tool does that no other tool does:
CUTS STRAIGHT IN WITH A INCH WIDE BLADE.
And since it is a vibrating blade
IT THROWS NO DUST!

You'll take that riser out in no time. You'll be able to pare the riser off along the hull, right at the hull. And you'll be able to cut in through the bottom of your fillets and lift the thing out in one piece. Get a cheapy - and if you like it, get a Rockwell or something if you need to.

There are also cheaper 'universal' blades now in the market (VersaTool) that fit most of these ocillating tools including the Fein, I think. Don't buy the Fein.
What was that? Oh yeah, don't buy the Fein.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________
*Find Harbor Freight on the web. Under Power Tools find Multifunction tools. The non-variable-speed goes for $40.
I've never used it. Don't know the quality of their offset blades, you may need extra when cutting frp.
I guess you'll be cutting mostly through plastic along a joint line, so you may get by with what they include in the kit.

[Tony G]

Craig, you have no idea how much I wish I could head on down there and lend a helping hand. Do you think you could supervise a job like that? Or are you the type of person that just has to be in there doing it? Let's put our heads together.

A couple of years ago I wouldn't have balked at the price, but nowadays I'm both a cheapskate and broke! Like the water tankage, this might be something I have to build. Who would have ever imagined-toilet envy

[ebb]

Begun actual fitting of litlgull's Airhead.
Since purchase of the unit it has become an antique.
There is a new Airhead with upgrade connectors of the two main pieces -
and a choice now of household sized seat or the original marine seat.
The bowl hole size under the seat - TEN INCH diameter- has not changed.
The seat inside diameter is a slightly out of round NINE INCHES.
Comtemporary real household seats have roughly the same width hole but often oval forward to a 15" opening
The complete AirHead seat dimensions are about 13 inches round

and including the fairly stiff foam gasket on the bottom of the seat (the lid has a gasket as well of the same material) the whole affair is TWO INCHES TALL.

It is also rather heavy at about four pounds and seems to be composed of whatever old-fashioned household toilet seats were made out of - some kind of compressed wood maybe? But it is a BEMIS unit and nicely designed. It's what you accept as highend proper seating for any toilet. In this case, it's barely adequate for a midget, imco.

Geoff Trott who introduces himself on the phone as the Airhead designer has done some important upgrades, including the ' household' version of the seat. Still very small in the pics on the Airhead site but a bit elongated. Actual household seats are longer, not necessarily wider in the hole, but wider in the seating frame and more friendly.

Somewhere I read (was it here?) that the Nature's Way composter came about when some former workers at Airhead who made upgrade suggestions for the Airhead were ignored.
So they began their own company. Haven't seen the composter yet - haven't sat on it - but it looks pretty small in the seat also, but larger and more innovative than the original Airhead.
The seat is molded into bowl with a hinged lid that cups the seat so that it adds little to its height.

This is to say, then, that the Nature's Way toilet can not be shortened much at all by altering the seat arrangement. (Nature'sWay is also an inch taller overall than the AirHead.)
But the original Airhead has TWO INCHES to play with. If you are going to have seat and lid obviously you won't get a two inch downsize in the composter's height. Gonna need something to sit on.

I lowered the deck in the V-berth to make sure the Airhead would fit under any aisle covering needed to convert the area into bunking. Trying out the Airhead AFTER the remodel, I discovered I hadn't lowered the deck enough!!! Jimminy Cricket!

Taking the seat/lid unit off and thinking that something thinner like plywood could be used, I'm trying a number of possibilities, including thinner gasketing.


One of the things that could be suggested to the Airhead designer is a less schmaltzy seat unit molded out of polyethylene to get at least a ONE INCH reduction in height - and still have a seat that would appeal to gentler bottoms. Given that employees left to right wrongs with a whole new company, that's not going to happen, Tho maybe there is a ready made in a Bemis toilet seat catalog.

Two other things:
There are twin airvent holes for the hose too far toward the side of the bowl. With the composter pushed up into the V-berth aisle, it is not possible to access the either hole with the hose. A new 1 3/4" hole has to be drilled further around toward the back of the bowl. I'm going to check with Geoffry on this and also ask him about plugging in the original holes. There was no mention of plugging the extra hole, it was left open when I got the toilet.
Maybe it was left open on purpose. Be easy enough to close holes in the bowl with poprivets.


CRAIG,
have you come up with an idea and photos we can see of your INTERIOR DORADE? It's the ONLY solution! But where you put it is a problem, imco. For me, given the open interior design I committed to, an obvious lump in the rise of the cabin side is a problem and head-banger.
For starters imagine a shoe box attached to the cabin inside, either in front of or behind the little opening port. I "see" it on the starboard side.

'WHAT'S THAT HOSE THING YOU GOT HANGING FROM THE ROOF IN THE FRONT CABIN?'
The Airhead came with a tiny square box fan and a scupper-like plastic fitting that the fan can be squeezed into.
One end reduces to hose size, the other has a substantial flange that normally would be used to attach the fitting overhead to a cowl or Nicro piepan vent.
But it could attach instead to the shoebox in a low position on the forward side of the shoebox. The hose could be partial hidden.
The dorade has a baffle down the middle inside that rises 3/4s of the way to the top where there is enough space to allow the fan air to turn down a small distance to the exit hole in the cabin side - with the clamshell, ON DECK you'd see the chromed clamshell about half way up the side of the cabin either just in front of or just behind the opening port.
Drill scupper holes thru the bottom of the side with the exit hole to let any spray water back out. Don't know if the fan is strong enough for all this distance and friction?
What do you think?

Another problem when pushing the compoiser forward in the V-berth is that you soon run out of cranking space for the tumbler.
I thought of everything complicated, including a 5" diameter wheel with a folding revolving handle. Not enough room!
On the Airhead site Geoff has a better solution. Simply use a rachet wrench with a 3/8" adapter - that fits into the same hole as the crank - for the handle, Perfect for close quarters there. Of course they cost $35 or more.
Smaller problems: the opening lever on the right side of the bowl is really close to my Viberth side. It has to be moved down and up one-quarter circle to open and close the pee sluice.
Another problem is with the screw-in holding knobs for the composter on the side of the container. On the Airhead we have to screw the small knobs into smaller inserts. Has to be done 'blind' as it will very difficult to get visual accuracy and fingers in there.
Thanks for considering this!!

[Tony G]

Ebb, what a PIA. There, it had to be said.

Why don't you just DIY your own seat and lid? There is no doubt in my mind that you could produce a design that is ten times better than what you got when you opened up the box. And I'd bet it would look like it was there all along.

Are the levers and cranks something that could be bent? (guess I should go to the AH gallery and look around) It is tight up front when you start putting furniture back in. Operating anything mechanical in those confines has got to be like scratching yourself while driving. Seems simple enough at first glance but....

After Craig's bold and daring first jump and then Capt. K show all expose, I decided to try my hand a stitch and glueing a 'Nature's Way-like' composter.

If you head on over to Sven Yrvind's site you can get a glimps at his internal dorade boxes. And his hull makes ours look like mega-yacht!

[ebb]

yeah Tony,
I'm going to put in a outhouse privy seat that spans between the V-berths - a hole in the plywood
I'm pretty committed to taking off the toilet seat and lid.
So the sitting seat will be gasketed like the original
And there will be another gasketed lid that will close the composter and span the bunk space.
Thinner seat and lid will allow the toilet to be raised - and that mean it can be pushed forward for leg room.

Behind the composter I'll have another lid into a space for the peatmoss or coir. And the spray bottle. Don't know about the bumwad storage and I won't have room for a spare pee bottle.
On a singlehanded that seems ridiculous anyway.

How much room you have for attachment knobs, the sluice lever, and the tumbler crank are a function of how much room is needed to sit on the throne. I have to get the composter crammed forward in the V space to get enough room for my knees which are right at the bulkhead, step down.


I'm going to make up a model of Craig's interior vent.
If I use the vent fan housing supplied by Airhead the dorade will have to stick out at least 5".
If that is the place to mount the fan, that is a substantail intrusion on the nice curve of the fore-cabin.
The location may be better forward or all the way back by the main bulkhead and semi-hidden there. We'll see. Longer hose, a bigger fan and more DC may be needed.
Isn't the correct concept that it is more efficient to push air rather than draw it out?

Yrvind's 'dorades' seem to me to be the wrong way round, upside down!
The "U' could easily fill with water and get below.

The standard dorade principle is correct, altho the boxes are often designed badly.
Stevens designed the original dorades to create a venturi to draw the air into the accommodation.
'So dimensions are important.

[Tony G]

I'm going to make up a model of Craig's interior vent.

??? Do you have some secret photos you're not sharing,Ebb?

[c_amos]

??? Do you have some secret photos you're not sharing,Ebb?

No, he has a description from me as we spoke about it over breakfast.... I am amazed he was able to understand what I was describing....

Ok, so imagine a cylinder. Now, half it and seal it to the bulkhead just aft of the opening port light in the V-berth. You have an inlet hole at the base of this cylinder going through the cabin top (vertical) then there is a baffle that runs top to bottom... with an opening on the top... now the exit is on the bottom with a pipe to receive the 1" flexible hose that the Natures Head wants to draw air in from.

You could finish the installation with a clamshell or louvered grate on the outside... or you would be able to just leave it open and it would be hardly noticeable.

If this is too hard to picture, let me know and I will try harder.

[ebb]

Craig,
sure I can see what you say.
But don't know if I can say what you see.
And a vertical dorade is a wonderful exercise in thinking out loud.

I called up Geoff Trott at Airhead again.
Probably because he was so accessible when I called last week.
He answered on his cell that he was in a meeting and to call back in two hours.
He called me! Two hours later.
I had a question about where the air comes from in the tank that we do all this bruhaha to vent?
My antique Airhead has two holes symmetrically placed in its quarters. Placing the compioster further up in the V-berth area cancels out their ability to take a hose.
I will have to drill a new hole further around the back for my vent.
It's certainly easy enough to poprivet the factory holes closed.
And that was my question..... Was the second hole left open intentionally?
It is.
And making a new hole for the vent hose is OK. But leave one hole open.

Second question for Geoff was..... length of vent hose
and whether the fan should pull the air or push the air out.
Airhead has actually tested this and finds the best location for the fan is at the end of the run,
where the system hose exits. Vents by pulling.

Now the third query..... I explained how difficult it was to find that exit in the Ariel.
Where would you put the cowl outside..... on the deck or the cabin?
Tried to explain Craig's internal vertical dorade idea to the inventor of the composter.
which I still think is an elegant solution!

So Geoff says,
you ready for this?
vent the damn composter into your chain locker.
That's what he has done on his own boat.

We all have, or should have a chain locker that is at least somewhat separate from the accommodation. right?
There's probably the old Pearson cowl vent still there or plastic one by now.
litlgull has the original foredeck vent hole glassed over because the skipper wants a pieplate vent in the Bomarhatch that is there now.
So mount the tiny fan in it's special ftting vertically on the chainlocker bulkhead!!!


There you go, vent the pooper into the forepeak.
which has or should have SOME ventilation going on.
That is enough to satisfy your compost system.
One less thru-hole in the ole girl.
What do you think?

[ebb]

Craig, remember that grade school exercise where we sat in a circle and whispered a "rumor" in one direction and were amazed how it ended when it came around?

Same thing here with your internal vent.
I see the half pipe extending lower than the deck.
Then you can mount the hose/fan fixture to the flat side of the halfpipe below the deck.
The hose would point toward the hull and be virtually unseen.

With a little extra futzing the bottom on the halfpipe could be closed off with a piece of the same pipe to get a radius that would complement the circular fan housing.
In other words the bottom of the extended halfpipe would be round as well,
except that the unseen side facing the hull would be flat to mount the fan. It would be a mitre joint. That means that you'd only have a halfpipe half circle to mount the the fan to.
Maybe the next size up pipe? Or maybe the 6" pipe could be cut not in half but, say, 5/8s or 3/4?
The muffin fan sits inside its 'bell' housing that has a screw in fitting for the hose at one end
and a flange at the 'exit' side with drilled holes that is 5" diameter.
So I can 'see' your six inch pvc halfpipe as being perfect for this fixture. Don't know what Nature's Head has supplied for the fan housing, but must be similar.

Have to be particularly careful in designing this to make sure no water gets back down to the fan.
Could extend the fan exit into the pipe-dorade with a hose extension inside the half pipe that goes up the interior baffle to where the baffle stops
and hope the air continues on its way out the other side to the cabinside exit.



In other words the dorade would have a bottom to it that is slightly above the level of the boat's deck.
The fan would have a right angle extension that would go through this floor - on the dry side.
This right angle pipe fitting could have a hose (or pipe) extension that went up as far as the top of the baffle that separates the dry from the wet sides. Theory would be that the hose extension would never allow water to get down into the dry side.
Some always will, therefor a couple tiny weep holes could be drilled thru the baffle to the wet side at floor level in the dorade so that water won't collect in there.
There is also the scupper hole in the bottom of the wet side that drains through the cabin-side to the deck. You'd see it underneath the clam shell cowl.
The hose extension would be added insurance so that if water gets into the dry side it would have to fill to the top of the baffle before it went down the extension to the fan and the interior.

All words of course.
Needs a hard model, and some thought given to maintenance and whether the dorade is permanently installed to the cabin side.
Since this is a closed vent system, not an open hatch vent, why not make one on the other side for wet weather cabin ventilation, in the V-berth area which really can use another vent? This one brings fresh air in.
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This vertical dorade is like a butterscotch lollipop to my mind!
Now I'm wondering if there is a way for a half-pipe vent to be on the OUTSIDE of the cabin?
Horrors!