Outstanding photo work Bill, and of course Ebb it goes without saying you are an inspiration.
Outstanding photo work Bill, and of course Ebb it goes without saying you are an inspiration.
1965 Ariel #331
'MARIAH'
This is a fun project to keep tabs on. Keep it up Ebb!
Beautiful work Ebb!
That dodger is gonna be one strong piece of gear! I think the compass is going to be a joy to use there, I was musing about just that placement.... but could not visualize it... you sure did.
I think the higher combing boards will work nicely. They would look out of proportion on my boat, but as I picture Little Gull's overall profile I think they will balance nicely... and sure be nice for leaning against.
Once again, first rate stuff going on... I too look forward to seeing the next update.
SAW-WEEET! Damn! I'll trade right now. Personaly, I can not wait to see a full exterior shot of Little Gull. Everything is finally starting to mesh and tie together and all the nuggets Ebb has given us in words over time are shinning bright.
Like for instance, the topsides...hubba-hubba. The high riding bottom paint and raised boot stripe...
And the coamings. I know that's a touchy subject for some folks out there. But I'll side with Tim Lackey there, (paraphrasing here) do what you feel will make the boat better serve your needs without compromising safety/integrity. Offshore sailors repeatedly state a safe, dry cockpit is a must. I think Ebb's taller coamings and outboard hutch will do just that.
That windscreen is the scource of a lot of envy in this camp! It fits. I mean it really fits. Great lines, great shape, great concept. Hey Ebb, how did you get the recess cut in for the Lexan? The compass brace? Art. There, I said it! As fine a line as I have seen on any boat.
Cant wait to see the finished bow sprit. Are the anchors going to hang there? Attachment for a cruising geniker? Similar shape for the bow pulpit?
Really like what we can see of the interior so far. That is the only fall back of these boats, you just have more ideas than room. Can't possibly fit them all in or blend them all together. But, you know how I feel about curves!
Dig the work, Ebb. As usual, you inspire and awe me with your craftsmanship. I sincerely look forward to the day I may be fortunate enough to meet you on the water. Hats off to you.
....thanks!
Have a archaeologist/writer daughter somewhere on the planet.
But you guys is family.
"Subtle progress." Bill is being nice, I've been remiss, or missing at the boat. Maybe like C'Pete I really want to 'only work on the boat in April and May.'
310) Following faint remnants of what looked like an old factory incised line led to this apparent anomaly evident in Bill's shots.
What line it is/was
certainly was the last line up I could find on both sides of the hull - but it had no sheer or bend in it that I could see.
And therefore I assumed it was NOT the top of the boot. I mean would the factory INCISE the boot stripe on a boat?
After this horse had left the barn (Awlgripping the topsides) I went back to Alberg's drawing board (pg 144 Manual)
The long blue tape delineates a compromise waterline. It leaves the extraordinary width in the bow between the bottom of the topsides I chose and the apparent new raised waterline. What a shock!
(338's bronze bottom is not intended to leach copper - at least I hope not! I added copper powder to a number of epoxy barrier coats and while it may help deter growths the intent is now to paint on regular anti-foul before launch. I have planned that the boot-top was to be painted on the bronze barrier.)
The short tape tics on the centertline show the 'designed line' and the 'raised waterline.' The long tape is my 'adjusted compromise' line. Load line? Anomalies are unsolvable problems.
My brain is tired of figuring out what the hell is going on with these waterline!
311) 3rd shot of series shows the huge sweep of the boot-top as it meets the CloudWhite topsides. Seven inch kick to the boot! The curvey sweep is a trick of perspective. The line actually is eyeball straight - and that was the reason I choose to accept it as a water line. Assume is the mother of all f...ups.
Note the two tape-tics again: the lower one is Alberg, next up the original bottom of his drawn boot-top. On top of that would be the master's boot-top sweep. The official width of this boot stripe changes on different renditions in the Manual. But the widest stripe may be on the sail plan (pg 146) - and the 'Freeboard' drawing of the Commander (pg 149b) The present owner's compromise waterline is the long tape. What color for this boot? I'm thinking cloud white!
312) Coamings. We have progressed beyond this stage . The mahogany has been surfaced out of rough-sawn stock, and accurate pine patterns created to transfer lines to the new coamings.
Blue tape on port coaming block is a lower-to line.
The cabin sides took a bit of filling/fairing to get them FLAT for the taller blocks as the pint-sized blocks cinched up on the hollow cabin sides caused them to be considerably caved inward. Hand holding the original doorskin 'try' pattern for Bill to show you what the new coamings might look like. Pretty tall, huh!
314) This hatch garage is meant to be removable while the dodger remains in place. Toyed with the idea of having a dorade inspired vent in front of where the sliding hatch stops inside. Center hole under the hood could enter the cabin with air supplied by cowls mounted directly on the hood near the lower corners.
2nd shot shows a molded overlap that will be glued to the hood. Not intended to be caulked, but any water that gets in should come back out through weepholes. Right.
3rd shot. Side lights in dodger should provide good visibility forward while sitting.
Waterways for the compainionway slide are original but made taller because of the redesign. (Those slots on the side of the opening.) The slide will be flat carbonate with no side turndowns like the original hatch. But glue-on drip-strips may be added on the underside of the plastic for anti-drip insurance.
Would have liked the Plastimo 130 compass mount a bit higher off the top of the slide. The middle light in the dodger is planned to be opening.
316) Where's the bunk?
317) Spoiled by this wide 2X4 ladder over the remodel years. Top step is about where the kitchen counter is going - angled away from access to the q-berth stowage area.
Promise to put up and shut up!
Last edited by ebb; 08-31-2008 at 09:25 AM.
OK, referring to post 307Originally Posted by Bill
Moving to the cockpit . . . Here’s Ebb's latest creation – a "Stand Up Tiller." With all that arc, it will be possible to steer while standing without raising the tiller handle.
Sent a full sized poster paper pattern (Ebb's Cobra Tiller) to H&L while conferring with the receptionist by telephone. I assumed the shop would match the curve to existing molds, but got a call back saying the unfinished tiller would cost including shipping $77.82.
Well, that's not bad for handmade, so I said, Sure. She called back and made some adjustment to the price. I asked her what pattern it was. She said it was related to some (numbers she assumed I had reference to..) but that it was a custom job. Had to snail mail the check.
Haven't got the tiller yet but it's only been 2 weeks. 7/30/08
Last edited by ebb; 07-31-2008 at 09:09 AM.
Referring to post 309.
I, ahh h h, hope that 'heavy duty' is correct for the 'wrap around wind shield' dodger piece - BUT it is not strictly very heavy - made as it is with fiberglass laminations and pvc foam - with rather generous negative weight holes cut out for the carbonate lights. What might be considered too heavy is the sea hood which has the original companionway sliding hatch laminated into it for good luck - and is solid frp.
Last edited by ebb; 08-01-2008 at 11:58 AM.
...Referring to 306
This Tim Lackey method of transferring a dead straight line to a boat is perfect for tight confines as is evident here. The tent provided the uprights for clamping the horizontal reference planks. ( a kind of engineered pine - made-up of pieces and strips glued together and primed flat beige. S3S, KD and very stable. Good pattern wood )
Tim's system would like a wider foot print to be able to move the string further out to touch more stops on the mid part of the hull for ease of marking.
Putting a straight line on the hull requires that the boat is dead level port and starboard. Not necessary for the fore and aft. So, the approximately 12' long 1" thick and 6" wide boards were clamped dead level like the boat onto tent poles at the required boat waterline, front and back.
Took measurements off our original plans and then onto the boat with story sticks. Made up yellow nylon string with gallon weights at each end and draped them over the boards, a set on each side. Made up string and cans for both sides so that the waterline could be compared. And checked against the original paint job it was: Close Enough.
Tight confines require that mid girth of the hull is located and the string securely taped to the boat in that exact spot and height. 3 pieces of immobilizing blue tape. Weighting the nylon string with gallon cans of resin (not sure that the house paint Tim uses is fully copasetic for this in-your-face left coast operation) makes it bar taut and straight as a laser. You semi lift the can to move it back and forth on the beam or you might saw through the string.
One end of the boat at a time is done from the mid-point. Half of the string remains unmoved as a constant reference. If a can is moved too close to the hull the curve of the bilge bows the string down. Have to be careful to just kiss the hull and lock it in place each time with a piece of tape. Worked out every 8" or so. The process requires constant sighting along the straight part of the line going to the opposite board and visually 'dragging' the straight half part of the string back where the string is being tacked to the hull. Go back to these single tapes and micro-readjust until a waterline reveals itself. Time consuming, exacting, tedious - and satisfying. Description of process also tedious. Sorry.
Marked the hull with a very fine line sharpie along the string between the tapes.
In other words that whole section of waterline from the middle of the boat to either end is taped to the hull. Have lunch, Take a walk. Come back, take another look, move up and down with your eye using the straight part of the string AND the far horizontal as datum, trying mentally to bring it around the curve. It is pretty easy to introduce a downward bend in line - you have to keep picking up on the dead straight datums. Then mark along the top of the string with the sharpie.
After marking, remove the tape pieces - but NOT the X'ed center - and move the can back to parallel (about 42" out from the center - which of course you had to guess at). Check the string is absolutely straight. Then tackle the other half of the boat using the straight part of the string for sighting. Sight and tape the full length from the center to an end. That weight-can on the side you are moving and marking will be way over the other side of the center point of the plank as you tape the last 8" stations at the bow or stern. Hold the string, which doesn't like being there, with a squeeze clamp. Mark the top of the string between the tape strips with the can squeeze-clamped way over.
Later when the side was sharpied end to end, the blue tape stripe was added on the new waterline for a welcome visual reward,
That's one way.
There is real magic in getting a straight line on a boat. I'd guess 98% of the boats coming into the yard have crooked waterlines. I've seen crooked boot tops on boats at the boat show!
Tim, I know, did it a lot easier, but then he had all of Maine to do it in,
Little Gull has but a tight little funky plastic garage in a San Rafael parking lot. It works surprisingly well where a laser can't go. Thanks Senor Tim! - enjoy your writing and tips and consummate skill!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
Kidding aside, Tim Lackey's Triton 381 website is the best resource there is for a plastic classic revamp. And he has kept it available for everyone.
He's Casey at the bat for Carl Alberg / Pearson boats. He is the only one who chronicles the renovation game inning by inning, play by play.
For square-one amateurs he's the king of boat projects. He out-caseys Don Casey on specifics. His public project logs are classics that stand far above everybody else's blogs on any boat subject.
Finding information about projects and rebuilding a plastic boat is time consuming and mostly disappointing. I've come to hate forums.
Tim has a literary style that lifts a chore into an art form.
This amateur has constantly been thwarted by incomplete information, lack of pictures/close-ups, and questionable methods. That is why I go on too long on details - frustration.
How-to books are always disappointing to me. They are information 7-11's. On the internet Tim is the best friend/instructor any amateur boat restorer can have... looking over his shoulder.
Last edited by ebb; 08-31-2008 at 09:43 AM.
Well lookit that - WOW!!!
A white mirror, the hull! A light, but what should be *incredibly* strong 'sprit (in particular, I like how it'll be anchored to the deck near the edges...)! Curvy-cornered cabinetry, a la TonyG, and just like it should be for a boat going to sea!
That dodger, the lines, the shape and curves - very reminiscent of a Golden Age of Flight, classic airplane windshield - awesome!
Almost like you could have a sliding-canopy bimini/cockpit cover to lean out of while wearing a leather helmet with goggles, silk scarf streaming aft in the wind as you and Little Gull beat to weather!
(Which was my plan exactly, so now it's back to the drawing board...)
Berth? Looks like you have the room to sling a double hammock down there!!!
Great work there, sir, and lots of it! Can't wait to see your interior come together more, wondering what delights *that* will reveal...
This is what I resembled when I saw these new pics...
Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
--------------------------------------------------
sailFar.net
Small boats, long distances...
BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE AT YOUR PERIL.
To make these coaming corner posts each side required 3 pieces of 1 1/2" x 6" x 15" to be glued up into a single block of approx 4 1/2" X 6".
There are not many wood glues available for exposed exterior wood pieces. The only wood glue we can truly depend on is Resorcinol.
It is an formaldehyde powder/purple resin mix that is impervious to everything when bonded including water immersion and delamination. It needs careful measuring, controlled timing, controlled temperature, and extreme clamping to be successful. it leaves a prominent dark purple glue line. Not something desirable on a mahogany glue-up for the coaming posts at the cabin. So I thought!
Another is powdered urea-formaldehyde 'plastic resin' glue, mostly tan colored and activated by mixing with water.
It is water resistant, will not take immersion. But it leaves a lighter colored or no line at all and is often used for wood masts, spars and laminated tillers. It also requires pressure while curing. It is a little more forgiving with humidity and temperature. Generally these glues have trouble setting under 60 degrees ambient.
I would describe these glues as producing a chemical bond with the wood - while the next choice produces a mechanical bond. That is if it's not T-88.
The third choice is epoxy adhesive. My bloody choice. I have used Smith's 2-part Allwood and Tropical epoxy for years without failure. It says it will glue oily woods such as teak - and it does. T-88 makes the same claim. Laminates are put together with moderate pressure so that the glue does not all get squeezed out to starve the joint. Good epoxy is even more forgiving of humidity and ambient temperature. It's the only choice when the project temp is below 65degrees.
Structural epoxies are not laminating epoxies which are usually runny and engineered for fabric wet-out. Adhesive epoxies are stiffer, thicker, and smell mildly of toast and ammonia. Guess they are low VOC, nearly 100% solids, and are not waterbourne.
It was time to try a fresh system so I ordered SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE.
www.systemthree.com
It mixes just like Smiths Tropical Wood Epoxy: it is a viscous material that spreads easily because it kind of likes to hold together. Quite different than laminating epoxy which flows apart like pancake syrup. On the freshly milled mahogany there seemed to be quick wet-out . The glue was applied liberally with a toothed spatula to both sides of each joint. No holidays. The pieces were smooched together and squared up with clamps at right angle to the glue line and weight was put on top. Can't remember what weight but might have been tool boxes. The result IS a consistent 1/3mm glue line.....
DISASTER!!!
The coaming blocks have failed.
THE GLUE LINE IS PULLING APART
Barely noticeable across the top end grain the two glue lines are opening. So far only the wider top of the post is coming apart.
Have not yet pried at the joints. The wood may be moving because of hot weather and drying winds - the pieces have not spent time in the sun. The WOOD at the joints is not splitting -
just the GLUE is letting go!
The end grain of the wood is totally tight, not the slightest crack.
The whole point of this adhesive is to hold the wood pieces TOGETHER
NO MATTER WHAT.
DON'T BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88.
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You have to take my word on this one.
I've worked epoxies for decades.
Was extra careful with this project. Mah baby.
No solvents were used to prep the wood surfaces.
The mahogany has been covered and stickered dry and air dried for 30 plus years.
Honduras is not known as a problem wood to glue.
Freshly planed, milled, toothed for epoxy to grip.
The pieces were sequentially stacked as cut.
The two-part T-88 carefully measured, carefully mixed.
The method used is to turn the two parts together on a square of acrylic sheet with a two inch spatula/knife. Excellent and thorough.
The glue was not mixed in a cup.
After mixing it was allowed to rest for 1/2 hour.
Then applied to room temperature mahogany.
and the pieces smooched together wet on wet.
What did I miss?
As far as I'm concerned this is a failure of
S Y S T E M T H R E E .
__________________________________________________ ____________________________
Good Cod, and I just got started using their waterbourne LPU in the cabin.
And I thought also for the coach roof outside.... maybe it's garbage too?.....
Last edited by ebb; 09-07-2008 at 08:00 AM.
T-88 is probably a good enough glue.
It is that too much was asked of it.
There just isn't enough glue to wood mass.
Guess it would work better if multiple layers of mahogany were laminated together - say 1/2" thick planks in a stack.
More glue area might minimize or almost stop the wood's ability to move.
Could say that this epoxy has limits as a wood adhesive.
There is also the possibility that too much of the wet of the glue was absorbed into the dry wood. Don't know if this can happen with this kind of glue. Penetrating surfaces would be a plus and increase the bond. No? Providing more tooth by scouring the surfaces on mating pieces might have created too much more surface area for the adhesive.
In gluing large pieces - much like biscuits or dowels are used in panel and table top edge gluing - I could have worked in three or four splines along each glue face by cutting matching 1/4" grooves and adding 1/4" splines that would have increased the glue area and maybe helped to stabilize the large pieces I felt I had to use.
The splines would have to be vertical grained. If the grain of the spline is the same as the work then the relatively thin strips might split. I would have to make up bread-slice pieces with short grain 90 degrees to the work.
An easier substitute are 1/4" 5ply Meranti Aquaply strips. 1/4" Meranti made overseas is often slightly thinner 6mm, thereby giving epoxy some groovin room.
Major pieces that these corner posts are will require they be made over again. BUMMER. I would redo them as described. (See later post.)
As a last harrah, mechanical fastenings could be tried to pin the damned post together. But I know the wood will win and delaminate in Tahiti.
Yet one more desperate idea:
Numerous holes could be drilled into the three pieces from the inside face and a bunch of mahogany dowel pins glued in.*
It's a chancey proposition because the main glue-up now has to be considered a secondary and failing fastening - and the dowel-pin quick fix the primary.
So we'll have to think this through. Wood dowels look good at the moment because the all important lags - that will hold the corners to the cabin - are going to go thru some of them.
(I'm going to try this method.)
A good dunking in penetrating epoxy. (for ME - this sucker is falling apart!)
And 20 coats of varnish.
Have tossed the T-88 because the stuff can't be trusted..... garbage.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
* found honduras m. dowels on the net at Constantine's Wood Center. If they fit tight in the drilled holes I'll use the tan glue and have a saw cut relief the length of each dowel pin so they can be driven in wet all the way.
Constantines has been in business for more than 200 years. How bout that!
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________
What gets me is that I might have missed an important step - using a new product.
However T-88 is a recognizable adhesive type that I've worked with for decades from one manufacturer in particular, but a few others as well.
What really gets me is that this failure trivializes the effort. It could have been something structurally more important - like a spar, bowsprit, boomkin, window or hatch - that could fall apart at a bad time - without warning.
If the proportion of wood mass to glue area was too much - and the glue-up began moving - then at least the adhesive should have pulled wood off the glued faces. Only the glue is cracking as the wood is moving (the tiniest bit).
Last edited by ebb; 01-01-2009 at 07:43 PM.
Mike, who runs the estate shop here, recalls that in some System Three literature there is a suggestion that prior to using T-88 Adhesive a System Three penetrating epoxy should be used to prime the wood to be glued.
This not correct.
For all intents the failure of the glue actually has the look of a starved joint.
Even though we have a requisite glue line.
A Technical Data Sheet for T-88 states:
(no mention of wood moisture content)
"Glue line thickness is not critical and clamping is not necessary...
"Oak is a highly porous wood with a strong tendency to absorb resin and yield starved joints of substandard strength. Preferred practice is to apply a liberal coat to both surfaces and without mating allow the parts to stand open for 30-45 minutes. Dull spots indicate complete absorption and should be touched up... then assembled and clamped with minimal pressure - just enough to ensure contact. Or the oak can be presealed with a thin coat on both mating surfaces and cured separately, then sand lightly, apply fresh T-88 and join lightly."
Teak surfaces require vigourous wiping with lacquer thinner and while still moist dried with rag. Repeat if the surfaces don't have a whitish color "indicating the extraction of surface oil."
My ancient dry honduras mahogany could be considered porous, I suppose.
I did not do the 1/2 hour open time to see if absorption was happening. However, there arguably was plenty of glue applied to both surfaces and a mild pressure was continuously applied while hardening that might have closed nano gaps caused by liquid being absorped by the wood. The block when dry had an even glue line all round. This indicates no glueless areas caused by absorption. Wrong.
The problem starts to be noticed at the large endgrain area (the top of the post) and there are indications (from the cutoff wedge pieces used outside to prop the mast) that the wood pulls away evenly all along the glueline.
Smith & Co.'s Tropical Hardwood Epoxy (Jamestown) requires NO PRETREATMENT to stick any kind of wood together permanently. From Lignum Vitae to Teak to Mahogany.
You have to know something about the glue. End-grain gluing is ALWAYS a problem with any glue. This is not end grain gluing but matched flat to flat grain. But Smith's doesn't need a crutch.
Now, to be absolutely sure we would need a fair comparison in a second post glued up with Smith's Tropical.
SO NOW, LET'S OPEN UP THE JOINT:
I forced a chunk of the laminate apart on one of the cut-offs with a stiff-blade putty knife.. These are the large 'waste' pieces now disintegrating full time in the sun. The wood has 100% pulled away from the joint line. Yet the glue did not want to let go right away.
....Inside the mating surfaces show visually and by feel that the adhesive was evenly distributed on both surfaces. But one surface shows the layer of glue - the mating surface shows no sign of adhesion!
The only conclusion is that the glue was widely absorbed on one side leaving few areas of connection.
The glue line turns out is essentially a figment.
Even though there is a apparent visual line of glue
one side or the other side seems to have let go!
There is no solid connection of wood to glue to wood except one small area WHERE THE WOOD RIPPED OFF FROM THE MATING SIDE. Quite odd.
This could be a lack of experience with both materials on my part. We've had a hot summer here and the wood is very dry and has very low moisture content. I didn't put a meter on it.
Taking the 15X loupe (Lee Valley) to the glue lines shows some lines 'sticking' intermittently to one or other side. While other lines have separated a complete length from one side.
I remember when the T-88 was mixed it didn't feel like the thick body of Smith's epoxy I'm used to.
I don't believe the Smith's Tropical epoxy could have just disappeared like the T-88 did.
Why one identical mating surface accepting glue and not the other?
Why one surface appearing not absorbed (evident layer of glue) and the opposite surface starved? Insane. These are identical sequential pieces.
Because of the weirdness of T-88, my goof or not, I'm sticking to the other product I know and trust. I'm positive I could never force a Smith's joint apart with a PUTTY KNIFE.
Smith's CPES, a penetrating sealer, is not a recommended surface pre-treatment for Tropical Wood Epoxy.
To be absolutely fair, the pieces could be primed with thin epoxy and allowed to set. Then the block would be sanded and assembled and glued with structural epoxy. THis is probably the way I should have done them.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________
THE FIX IS IN.
Mike suggests that with a wide thin resaw blade on the Laguna bandsaw we could easily cut along the glueline - ERASE THE JUNK ENTIRELY and then stick the block back together with another glue that has balls.
Minimal dimensional change.
Some cross dowels will be needed to key the blocks from sliding when gluing. I'll drill those in before separating the blocks. Next time: RESORCINOL.
Plastic Resin (urea-formaldehyde) will not survive soaking or swell/shrink heat/cold cycles of the coaming post environment. Epoxy has an elevated temp inadequacies and similar problem with high moisture or wet that coaming posts are subject to. Resorcinol is the ONLY glue for the job. R. is the ONLY glue that survives BOILING tests.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________
Type into your search engine APPENDIX C SUPERIOR ADHESIVES FOR THE MILLENIUM. This is Larry Pardey's condemnation of epoxy and its major purveyor's. It's a great article, from a book whose title escapes me. A professional woodworker's perspective. Epoxy has its place in layup, but never as a wood glue. The tropics will destroy epoxy in a couple seasons. Really can't use it in any exterior wood glue up. Guess I got lucky!
Last edited by ebb; 07-15-2016 at 11:29 AM.
Ebb....I just spent about an hour going through your pics. Hope to steal a few ideas from you.As I looked at the date of the last ones I realized..we need an update More pics please
I drove by Little gull last Sunday, and if I had my camera I would taken some pics, because I have been thinking the same thing.
1965 Ariel #331
'MARIAH'
Back on page 11, Bill showed us Ebb's "engineering table". Wonder if the lack of updates indicates too much time at the table and not enough on lil gull ? ;-) Only teasing Ebb....you are creating a masterpeace...extremely well thought out and engineered. Now...about those updates ........
Last edited by frank durant; 04-20-2009 at 04:49 PM.
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