AGGG! I got my lights reversed!! Thanks for the heads up.... I could have left them that way for years! Oh dear.... SMH...
AGGG! I got my lights reversed!! Thanks for the heads up.... I could have left them that way for years! Oh dear.... SMH...
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
Thought I should mention the light and glad to see that you have a good sense of humor. I'll bet you guys are ready for spring. Are the big lakes still icy? I've noticed Google usually out performs most sites when it comes to searches. I'll take a look at the led stuff
Still frozen. See http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...6317#post26317
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
I was just getting ready to say never mind after seeing your post and pics, wow, looks like you'll be able to go ice fishing this summer. I don't watch tv or follow the news much, too much work.
Recieved my new nav LEDs from Dr LED and they are very cool. One problem though the green and red would not go deep enough into the socket on the old fixtures. Waiting for a reply as to the best bulb for the old pearson sidelights. The stern light fit just fine as it is not as deep, bright as a lighthouse. Also put one of the 12v medium base (household style) bulbs in for the cabin lite and it is also very cool. Will be buying another. On the packages it says Zero RF.
I thought about trying to push the sockets up into the fixture but was afraid I would screw em up. Anybody ever try that?
Careful... The Dr. LEDs I tested didn't have the required width of vertical light emission. If you heel past 20 degrees, the sidelights will disappear. The COLREGs require +/- 25 degrees. Here's my letter to Dr. LED and their reply:
--------------------------------------------------Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: USCG Colreg Cert
To: customerservice@doctorled.com
Thank you. I will return the product to the vendor.
I am puzzled by your response since the brightness output requirements are the same for both powered and sailing vessels.
I recommend measuring the vertical sectors. My measurement shows the light being cut off entirely at 18.8 degrees referenced to the axis from the center of the LED to the top internal reflector.
Since this could adversely impact safety at sea, how do you plan to communicate this issue to vendors and the boating community? There currently is no labeling that I can find that indicates the LEDs are not certified for sailing vessels.
On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Dr. LED Customer Service <customerservice@doctorled.com> wrote:
Hi Patrick,
You are right that our red and green bulbs are certified for power vessels only for the time being. The reason being, red and green LEDs were not as bright as white LED in terms if lumen output. We can certainly improve the bulbs in our next production runs. For your information, the while bulb is certified for use with sail and power vessels as the lumen output is higher.
Yours truly,
James
for Dr. LED
Also, "Zero RF" is an unattainable pipe dream for LEDs that operate at a wide voltage margin (12 to 24 volts) because they incorporate switching regulators that will produce some RF interference (RFI). They all produce some RF interference, although there is a great variation in how much. The only way to achieve "Zero RF" is to encase them in shielding.
Here are spectragraphs of the RFI noise from the red Dr. LED I tested.
The first image is the RFI noise level from the Dr. LED.
The second image is the baseline (background) noise levels (LED powered off) taken inside the RF shielded (several feet of steel and concrete) Screen Room I used for testing. The Dr. LED's RFI was more than 30 decibels (a ratio of 1,000 times) higher than the background noise.
Placed near your VHF antenna, this noise level from the LED lamp would practically obliterate your VHF reception.
I do wish there were RFI standards applied here in the US to these lamps. Most sailors don't have a screen room and a $20,000 spectrum analyzer handy. About the only test you can perform is to tune in the weakest weather station on your VHF radio and then turn on your LED lights. If the weather station reception is lost, you have a problem, though without a test instrument, it will be difficult to quantify how serious that problem is.
The best LEDs I've found have the European Community "CE" stamp on them. Unlike the United States, the Europeans have RFI test standards.
You can read more about Dr. LED issues here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hts-36083.html
Last edited by pbryant; 07-30-2014 at 09:38 AM.
My source was www.mastlight.com
1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Red, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27R.html
1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Green, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27G.html
1 @ BA15DD 12 LED White http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html
1 @ unknown masthead bulb, white http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html
May well have the same tilt issues - of which I was completely unaware!
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
Kyle
What am I doing wrong? If I click on any of your links (which were the ones Rico told us about when he went to LED nav lights) it takes me to a home page for mastlight.com and when I click on navigation lights I get links to lots of other sites where I cannot find the bulbs you are talking about.
I'm trying to find LED Nav light bulbs that will work with the original fixtures to keep Destiny as original as possible but seem to be having a really difficult time getting to the bulbs you are talking about.
Help please!
JERRY CARPENTER - C147
A man can succeed at almost anything for which he has unlimited enthusiam.
The +/- 25 degree requirement is in Annex I of the COLREGs:Originally Posted by Lucky Dawg
10. Vertical sectorsWhy? Sailboats heel. The side lights shouldn't vanish as seen by another vessel at reasonable degrees of heel.
(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of lights
on sailing vessels underway shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
(b) In the case of sailing vessels underway the vertical sectors of electric
lights as fitted shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 50 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 25 degrees above to 25 degrees below the horizontal.
(Note that when the light intensity is reduced to 50%, it's visibility is reduced to 25%, i.e., if the light is visible at 2 miles when viewed straight on, it is visible for only 1/2 mile at 50% intensity.)
It requires brighter lights (or more LED lamps) to project the same amount of light over the less concentrated +/- 25 degree vertical arc. So the lights meeting the standards for sailboats are more expensive to manufacture. If the manufacturer can pawn off motorboat lights onto the sailing community, they make a bigger profit. But if you ever have a collision, you can expect the USCG to go over your lights with a fine toothed comb, and YOU are responsible for installing the correct lights. The manufacturer will shrug off responsibility for the accident saying: "we didn't claim those lights could be used on a sailboat".
If the lights aren't specifically labelled for sailboats and made by a reputable firm that specializes in navigation lights (unlike Dr. LED), expect them to be inappropriate for sailboats.
Last edited by pbryant; 07-30-2014 at 06:08 PM.
Since I sail mostly in the Pacific away from city lights that would otherwise degrade my night vision, I personally disliked the location of the side lights on the cabin sides: the lights (especially the green starboard light) reflected off the side deck and ruined my night vision. So I placed my red and green lights at the bow. Below are photos. The black masking on the toe rail top prevents the lights from reflecting off the white paint and then off the bow railing back at my eyes.
I used the Hella marine NaviLED Port & Starboard Navigation Light Twin Pack. Order info here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...557&id=1342750, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_...tion_Sheet.pdf. The lights are certified by the manufacturer as suitable for sailing vessels, and I personally set them up on a jig and verified the vertical sectors were greater than +/- 25 degrees.
On the datasheet, note the "CE" seal and the statement: "The electrical circuits contain components that suppress possible interference, both emission as well as susceptibility, to the limits prescribed in EN 60945." That's a European standard. There sadly are no U.S. standards. That's "deregulation" at work here! If the time ever comes that you can't hear the Coast Guard calling you over the radio frequency trash your LEDs are causing, you can thank the Grand Obstructionist Party in Congress for the lack of regulations (we all know who that is). That leaves you with only one reliable choice for LEDs: Buy European.
Last edited by pbryant; 07-30-2014 at 06:18 PM.
Hey Jerry,
Not sure if they are out of business...? Maybe their website went kaput. I sent Hans a message (sales@mastlight.com) - guy who helped me before. Will let you know if / when I hear something. Sorry, I should have checked the links before posting.
KW
Kyle
C-65 Lucky Dawg
LED navigation lights and raised eyebrows
Patrick,
Thanks for taking the time to set us straight on this very important safety issue.
Really appreciate your research and expertise.
And getting in the face of those who short cut sailors for profit.
Internet forums - give-&-take discussion - seem to be the final stronghold against incompetence and fraud.
What other social outlet is there?
This Pearson Ariel/Commander sailboat site gets, what seems to me, a huge number of visitors.
Whenever I come aboard, any time of day or night or day of week, there are always
20 or 30 'users' listed...usually 'guests'...and a fair amount of spider activity. There is constant visitor turnover activity 24/7.
Obviously, a lot of folks are looking in.
Just trying to say that if response to your navlight revelations seems sparse, it isn't!
.................................................. .................................................. ..................................
Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?
Thanks!
Last edited by ebb; 07-31-2014 at 10:58 AM.
Thanks for the insight on the LEDs, never would have considered those issues. Wow, you got some forward firepower, what ya got to cover the stern? And say... What kind of game are we playing with the blue line in your deck? Asym tack?
How about the red line that goes thru the block on your stem fitting, jib douser?
I'm using a Hella Marine 2 NM NaviLED PRO Stern Navigation Lamp on the stern. (Order info here: http://search.defender.com/?expression=700834&x=0&y=0, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_...tion_Sheet.pdf).
The blue line is my pendant that I use to haul the anchor rode to the bow while I toss it over from the cockpit. Full details are here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...6711#post26711. And yes, as you surmised, the red line is my jib douser.
Note that Rule 22 of the COLREGs requires that the minimum visibility of the stern light for a vessel less than 12 meters (I count an Ariel as being 8 meters) is 2 NM. That minimum is met with the light above. The sidelights (red and green) only need to be 1 NM to satisfy the COLREGs, but I opted for 2 NM lights. I reason that, considering how little power the LEDs draw, there's not much gained by using less-intense lights.
Last edited by pbryant; 08-01-2014 at 04:47 PM.
> Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?
The larger 6 LED assembly is Larson Electronics model LEDP3W-6-F-WHT and the two smaller 3 LED assemblies are model LEDP3W-3-F-WHT. The clamps are model BC-3-WHT-1. Put lots of anti-seize grease on the stainless steel screws before you install them in the aluminum clamps. I didn't, and regretted the omission.
Be sure you're sitting down before you see the price on those lamps. They are pricey, but they've held up to years of being struck by boarding waves and still continue to function. They are very, very bright. Since I've had them, I haven't had to untangle a crab pot line from my outboard prop, and they sure are nice when coming into port and docking.
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