Tiller Discussions

[carl291]

Hi , from a new member. I think it's best to not enlarge this hole for a larger bolt. Basicly 2 reasons: 1 There is not enough of a shoulder around the hole for a larger bolt. 2 the shaft head piece and the tiller mount bracket has an interference fit which is what should control free play, the bolt is merely the hinge and attachment point. If you should enlarge the bolt to control slop it will right up to the point where the tiller mount will break out by the holes youv'e enlarged. You will have all the tiller leverge on the bolt holes running through the tiller mount and not shared evenly over the shaft head.
In your first picture the wear is evident in this area and needs some shiming. Maybe this helps. Carl

[ebb]

Carl's observation is correct
in my opinion also.

We have talked about the problem on another thread.
I agree that the hinge should not be drilled out for a larger bolt.
That would take too much meat away from the small amount of bronze in this area. If wear happens again, that would be the end of the fitting.

About the only thing I can think of that would help (out side of the volumes of words on the other thread) would be to use heavy tight fitting washers under the head and nut of the hinge bolt. That might take some of the play out. It may be necessary to use smaller washers and drill them out to exactly 3/8".

Since this part of the hinge is exposed and accessible, a crafty skipper might spot weld (MIG, TIG or OXY) the washers on to the tiller fitting. Just a couple touches.
If it works (tightening up the hinge slop) then that's cool.
If it doesn't then grinding the washers off is no big deal.

Putting weld metal in the hole and redrilling for exactly 3/8" is perhaps the right way but you'd need a genius to do it, And be careful the hole was put back exactly where it was originally. Common silicon B. wire or rod would be a upgrade in filling the hole.


Keeping the whole tiller/rudder assembly tuned and tight will make it last.
Renew the O-rings to keep the shaft tight.
Make sure the tiller head fits well. You may have to add shim material inside the cup of the headfitting that engages the shaft.* It should be snug.
Custom file a key out of larger key stock for the keyway so that it fits tight. So that it fits the slot in the head and the slot in the shaft which may have worn wider and more V shaped. The head fitting should not move on the shaft. Permatex(?) has a specific filler goop just for this not so uncommon problem. This clunky 5# tiller assembly is cantilevered off the top one inch of ruddershaft. Rather unfair disadvantage, isn't it? This connection moves 2 1/2 tons of antique boat through multiple tons of wind and water levered by a questional piece wood in the grip of an excited human. This minimal connection should be as perfect as we can get it.
Find this older thread on this subject for other great tips. I believe it is 'bill231' who has put a couple of set screws into opposite sides of the 'cup' that's over the shaft. In addition to the problematic key and keyway that makes a three points anti-movement lock. Great innovation! But, I think Bill said, you have to remember the set screws are THERE!
You may have to clean the nano space between the ears that clamp the head to the shaft. There's minimal clamping.

By the way, notice that one ear in the HEAD has a bushed hole.** The other side of the pair is threaded. The idea is to put the bolt into the non threaded side, screw it into the opposing hole and cinch the ears tighter using the head of the bolt.
When closely looking at the 'bolt clamp' you'll notice that the skinny side is also thinner than the opposite side out to the diameter of the cup - which is very obviously much fatter so as to be non-movable. When ready and on the shaft, a pair of big ViseGrips with the teeth taped might be used to squeeze the cup - THEN turn in the bolt to hold it. Without the bolt in you can carefully open the clamp with a chisel. All this, of course, with the fitting upside down on the work bench.


Nothing should move when installed - except

the rudder back and forth
and the tiller arm up and down

Everything else should be tight and that will keep the wear down.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
* A previous thread had discussion about using shim stock to furr out a sloppy tillerhead. One skipper used or found pepsicola can used for the purpose. Purists can find shim stock at McMasterCarr. 316 and 260 brass. Brass might conform better to the hole being 1/3 the hardness of the s.s. Average price $10 for an 8"X12" sheet. Look it up. I don't know how you figure what thickness you want. One sheet will give you 8' of usable 1" wide (the tillerhead cup is 1" deep) shim material.
Try the cola can for size, 1 - 2 -3 wraps, get the thickness with the micrometer, then get the real stuff. Better not to wrap aluminum around the top of the rudder shaft.

**You'll notice that the side with the bushing is narrower in width. Side with the threading is thicker. The thinner side was probably meant to be pulled over towards the thicker side. The bolt no longer can function on my tiller head because the threads have been distorted by near futile tightening. It's a 1"L 5/16" full threaded bronze hex bolt. Gonna have to keep a few extras.

[Tim D.]

Thanks All, I guess I will not risk drilling out the holes unless I have another fitting in hand. (Which of course if I did I would just put it on)
I had read the other threads but since I didn't see what I wanted I kept hoping

I did consider filling and redrilling, but then again the risk factor makes me shy away from that idea.

I will try some of the interim remedies suggested as I really don't like the slop in the steering.

I am about to order a trailer and later in the summer I will be moving her up here from Sausalito and at that time look into a permanent solution.

Tim

[ebb]

H & L Marine Woodwork
2965 E Harcourt St.
Rancho Dominguez Ca 90221
323-636-1718
310-638-8746
fax 323-636-1720

Largest and oldest marine workworking outfit in US.
Probably make all of the ash/mahogany laminated tillers you see in any catalog (pyacht, defender, wm) and in any store.
The tillers have a sleek and recognizable style.

[They custom made a tiller for litlgull* for about the same cost as one of their ready-made classboat tillers.
I mailed them a full sized cardboard pattern which they translated into a beautiful laminated tiller at a reasonable price. And in about a week.]
Check their prices first befor committing to an internet catalog purchase.

They may have a pattern for a replacement tiller for Ariel/Commanders.
Ask, if that's what you want.
They may have made and supplied the original tillers for Pearson A/Cs 50 years ago.


*You can get your new tiller bare or varnished. Since the tiller has to be carved to get it to fit our tiller head - and also I wanted to prep the wood myself with penetrating epoxy and use Epifanes varnish - I got it unfinished. It was a little cheaper, but also arrived nicely sanded, ready to go, and beautifully made.

A pleasurable experience!


{I must apologize for all the endless repetition I have made here on this subject.

In the future I'll try to remember to review the thread BEFOR posting. Sorry.}

[commanderpete]

Hi Greg

I'm in the back on one of those pictures

Ebb is right, H & L is the place to go. They still don't have a website I believe.

I like the tiller design from the Manual. It might be improved if the handhold end drooped down so it was a bit flatter

Edit: I found another thread on tillers -- [now merged with this thread, Moderator]

[ebb]

That has to be (from the nice way the tiller handle ends)
an H&L.
And that's taller than the the Montauk Lighthouse the young man is looking at...so where are we?

[Commander152]

My tiller has some fixable cracks in it. I plan to buy a new tiller, and then, fix the old one and use it as a backup.

For the new tiller I have two questions:

1. I see the drawing on page 83 of this association's manual. It sounds like people like the shape and it looks better than my current tiller, so I am thinking about going with the drawing. Have others had good experience using the drawing?

2. Do forum members recommend any new tiller companies? In my web search I found Rudder Craft in Idaho (they have a Commander Tiller) and Anytiller in Georgia (they will make you a custom tiller). Are these good companies or does anyone have a different post-H&L favorite?

[Commander152]

My Pearson Commander tiller has some fixable cracks in it. I plan to buy a new tiller, and then, fix the old one and use it as a backup.

For the new tiller I have two questions:

1. Do forum members recommend any new tiller companies? In my web search I found Rudder Craft in Idaho (they have a Commander Tiller that looks similar to my current Tiller) and Anytiller in Georgia (they will make you a custom tiller). Are these good companies or does anyone have a different post-H&L favorite?

2. I see the drawing on page 83 of this association's manual. It sounds like people like the shape and it looks better than my current tiller, so I am thinking about going with the drawing. Have others had good experience using the drawing?

BTW, This forum is hugely helpful and so is the manual. I thank you all for managing the forum and keeping it active. I hauled out my boat and had all the bottom work done as specified in the manual. Thanks!

[ebb]

H&L probably got sold 10 years ago, thereabouts. But someone is still around on the
internet selling tillers very like H&L They will show a stack of their tillers very much like
the original company did. But it may also have new ownership. RUDDER CRAFT
comes to mind, MauriPro looks like they offer class laminated tillers,
which may be RudderCraft.

I didn't like the original knee basher tiller and, made up a pattern slightly more S curve (it
looks more radical than it is) that swings pretty much above sitting knees in the back of the
cockpit. Instead of close matching to an existing class tiller, they used the pattern to
make an exact copy, and charged me no more than a normal price, which always was
very reasonable.

I like the tiller very much. The exaggerated S curve looks normal to me. It also allows
the tiller to be used in the resting down position when the helmsman is standing, where
the tiller is supported in the tiller-head, instead of being angled up using only the 5/16"
machine screw that attaches the tiller to the head. This screw/bolt is not easily replaced.
I have never found a ready-made.

I don't believe the boat should be steered with the tiller in the raised position.

One other thing. These laminated tillers are at a disadvantage with the attachment bolts
passing thru the laminations in their present side to side position. This is where we see most
wood to metal failures occur. After reducing the tiller end to fit the channel, I located the
attachment bolts thru the top of the channel so that the laminations are held in a clamp
position. Instead of washers under the nuts underneath I made a short one piece strip out
bronze strap. This may be unnecessary.

I lucked out back then when I scored what I stlll think is a perfect tiller. Fastening the
laminated tiller thru the top came from one of our owners here, sorry, forget who, but is
the perfect alternative to attaching softer glued-up material to that massive tillerhead.
Isolate the wood from the metal.

Likely that the tiller will need replacement in the future. Use an old-fashioned bedding
compound to waterproof the connection. Seal the end of the tiller with liquid epoxy. If
no bedding compound is available judiciously use LANOCOTE, you want to keep fresh
water out of the joint. Don't use any of the rubbers like 4200, Sikaflex, BoatLife. I
wouldn't use butyl or butyl tape either! NO RUBBER.

Semper Alberg!

[Commander152]

I assume your S-shaped tiller is different from the one in the commander manual. Is this assumption correct?

[ebb]

YES did find a doorskin pattern for the Litlgull tiller.

Being doorskin I will assume it is accurate and was
used to send H&L the pattern. If interested, send me
an email: eborregaard@hotmail.com.

There may be somewhere in Ebb's Gallery a photo
of the tiller, or the pattern???


Could say the knee-friendly tiller is more of a bow
shape with a short angled straight end into the tiller-
head.
You could sit in the cockpit with a stiff piece of card
board and using your straight tiller Sharpie a few
curvaceous lines to get the idea. H&L ash and
mahogany tillers have a beautiful taper, which was
created for the 'cobra' style tiller that H&L made.


Suggestion: Go to the ruddercraft.com site. Go in
thru products/tillers and hit the Ranger29 tiller. It
has a fairly pronounced upward curve. BUT lay a
straight edge under the picture, you'll see the curve
is not as radical as it seems. I made a full sized
pattern of a Ranger tiller (back then), didn't like it
because the upward curve was too gradual. It is an
'S' curve. So I made a pattern with a quicker rise.

I know nothing about RudderCraft. Wouldn't
surprise me they'd make a custom tiller using a
custom pattern but using their own taper formula.
For a price. Maybe reasonable!
They seem to have all the old class patterns that
H&L had, they must be direct descendants..

[ebb]

Swear there was a new post here that laid out the measure of the rudder stock..

Turns out the stock is 69 1/4" OA. Hope to get back here with a little more..

__________________________________________________ ______________
Ebb's a wee confused. Go to RUDDER DISCUSSIONS for rudder stock talk.