EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD

[ebb]

not worth a whole lot. But if you and I were having a few beers I would propose this.
I'ld scrap this clamshell idea because the glassing is so difficult. If I could have 'seen' into the problem with the models I made, I don't think I would have continued. Once I was welding the rudder I was commited.

A take apart rudder is a good brain exercise. Agreed? If NO use yer curser to exit NOW.

Here, instead of clamshell, let's just cut it across like a loaf of bread.

I would simply make a top half that socketted into the lower half. If you can imagine two straps (1/8" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar) coming off the sides of the shaft and meeting at the trailing edge, you have a long narrow triangle. Make this at the top of the bottom half. It is hollow in there.

Make the mating part of the top half out of the same material but smaller so that it fit snug inside the long narrow hollow. That's a lot of bearing surface. You could have the shaft fit into a self socket also. Might even be four sided, male and female. Maybe that's over kill. Maybe the shaft could merely be cut there, conceptually. Actually the rudder is two separate pieces.

You'ld have a removable fairing piece on the boat or the top of the rudder that would allow the two pieces to be separated, by lifting the top part up. The bottom half would be lifted out of the shoe, and the top would be slided out of the tube. Would the keying of the mating parts have to be any more than two inches deep? Don't think so, And the fiberglassing would be a breeze. I would run it by a structural engineer. Wish I'ld thought of this befor. Beelieve I'll have another pint with my friend here, anybody got a pencil?

But, do you even need the continuous shaft at all? Need the top for the tiller head, need the shaft thru the rudder tube, need the connection down at the shoe. What do you need the middle for? [need something in the middle for the gudgeon strap keeper]

The original rudder, you need the full/split shaft. But with epoxy and glass and welded flat bar the middle part of the shaft is useless extra weight! The original did not have a continuous shaft. An aperture in the rudder might present a minor design adjustment.

1" silicone rod goes for around $30 a foot. Manganese rod is available.



If I had the time...............

[mrgnstrn]

so let me get this straight, your rudder is two halves (port and stbd) about the center line of the boat? what is the split shaft for? and how far up/down is it split?

by the way, i dig the shape.

[Bill]

" . . .by the way, i dig the shape.

See Alberg's lines drawing in the manual. It's his!

[ebb]

Capt. Mrgnstrn,
Check out post above beginning 'Holy Moley.' Can't make it any clearer without photos.

If the whole rudder had been in two halves, then I guess the whole shaft would have been also, so I went with what I thought was the shortest break in the shaft one could get away with. One side has the small upper half section and the shaft portion what goes up the tube. The other "half" is all the rest of the rudder, the major portion, all of it really except for the upper flap bit. OK? Not yet, huh? Me neither.

[mrgnstrn]

OK, I understand where the upper and lower halves of the rudder are separated.
I don't fully understand the shafting, but maybe a few pictures would help.
you used PVC foam for the diagonals, but have you determined if the the whole rudder bouyant or not?

muchas gracias...

[ebb]

foam is the filler in the clam shell, it isn't structural. There's very little of it. The rudder is rather narrow, right? The rudder is as bouyant as a piece of lead, or bronze. As I intimated above, this is not a good design, A good design is the original rudder. The 6 or 7 feet of 1" bronze shaft-rod at about 3# a foot doesn't make the original a floater, either. If the original rudder had been made totally out of wood, it would have been a floater. I have not heard that a lite foamfilled neutral rudder, like those that stand alone behind a fin, is desirable on the end of a keel. Would like to hear a discussion on this!!!

A rudder with two or three narrow triangles of flat bronze bar welded to the sides of the rod instead of allthread drilled thru the rod - the rest made up of divinycell, glass and epoxy would make a good substitute - come in at about the same weight - easier to maintain - ten times stronger - than the original. IMCO.

A two part socketing rudder like the one above could be designed at the cost of more weight. A full size working model out of wood would be made first.

Will make a valient attempt at finishing the present project. I advise everyone against it. Unless you make a compleat working model first! If the fiberglassing is successful there hopefully will be some photos.

[ebb]

Have about 3 passes, so far, of 407 in the hollows that go from stem nearly to the stern on 338 Has anybody faired their A/C to a batten? Would really like to hear how you proceeded! I can't be the only crazy around here? Love that longboarding!

[Tony G]

Sorry Ebb,
You're about eight months ahead of me in that department. Are you going to apply a dark topside paint? Is that why you're fairing the hull or is it just a personal obsession? I know 113 could use a little (read alot) of longboard action before painting next summer....so once again, I'm relying on you for technique and direction. Wish I could help but what I'm really saying, I guess, is keep up the good work. Just remember Ebb, I'm behind you all the way! Tony G

[ebb]

Capt T! How goes the prog? All kinds of fairing questions, probably some important not being asked. Began getting cooler weekends - going up that ladder all this time - sighting the hollows on the way to another project - had to do it - facing another seasonal slog thru wind and rain.

Some guys on the net talk about osmotic gelcoat blister repair or hydrodynamic maximum lift foil section fairing, but there is no blow by blow on this hickey problem we have.

I got a six foot piece of 1/8" x 1 1/2" aluminum from the hardwear. It has a smooth sexy feel to it. I had tried the aerosol primer technique, putting on a mst of color and then long boarding. Was effective - and depressing to see the huge dark puddles left. I felt uncomfortable with the foreign substance on the gel coat. It would be useful later in the topsides game.

338 had some dramatic filling to do, some places the bottom of the swale under the batten pressed on the hull seemed 1/4" deep! The flexible bar is laid against the hull and encouraged into the mildest arc by bending the top toward the toerail. You can't bend the batten around the bilge without putting a kink in it. One time I read a guy explaining how he used monofiliment to locate the dips - you can get the whole side - but you can't fiddle, or fondle, that extra fullness that brings relief to a tired brain and a weary eye. Don't think it's only a male thing.

We had longboarded the topsides twice befor, so they were well scratched. A few hilltops had begun to show some green thru the white. And we were beginning to be well versed in the long diagonal strokes needed for any fairing.

Every 5 or 6 inches along the hull, holding the batten at the seam and below at the turn in the hull, made a vertical pencil line representing the supposed hollow you could see under the batten. Connecting the ends of these lines together outlined the hollows into 'puddles.' Prime the puddle with virgin epoxy. Wipe as much off again with terry rags befor gooping.

407 I hear is a patented mix, Tried to make up fairng compound myself from microballoons and silica. Even at a stiff 50 to 50 mix I still got serious sag. And it was a b@!*^%d to sand. So I snuck into WM and shelled out $2 an ounce for 407, mixed it into a stiff as I dared brownie dough, and spread it on. Two 15 oz (!) containers $62.

Wouldn't you know, West Systems 407 sags TOO. You hafta mix in 404, says a wag. But that's silica, says I (whatever the damn number is!) And I KNOW that stuff is a bear to sand and impossible to fair.
So, I draw a piece of sheet metal bent improvisationally into a very approximate arc across the goop. collect it on the spatula and reapply it to the skips, and keep drawing the metal across the puddle. But the more you work the stuff (you ARE pressing it against the hull, which is a good thing) the more you bring liquid to the surface.

And it sags continuously until it gets hard. Must be what the patent was for. But it IS easy to sand. It's shiney too. After sanding, the low areas are untouched and dark while the rest has 'greyed' out. Where you did a single swipe and it's thin it stays dull and no sag. Lesson # 1: do not put it on thick on vertical surfaces. We haven't much, and the sag you learn to control by not trying to fill all at once. The 407 under the 36 grit longboarding doesn't produce dust, it's a kind of grit. But it has a static stickyness to it, likes to cling.

Ahhh! but the topsides, even in this 36 grit stage are beginning to look S O O O O sweet!

One nagging question. Is that this relatively soft stuff is going on to a very hard surface. That's the question. Now, we will sand this stuff back as far as we can. Maybe even flatter than Alberg's rounded curves you can see on the lines drawings, maybe. Once it is where it is going to be it can be hardened up with plain epoxy with a little silica, maybe? That's a question. I'ld say that nearly half of the topside surface is chocolate colored at the present time. That's a question.

[After experimenting: 407 can be made up extra stiff, non sag, and pressed on the surface, but maybe not with the comfort of being sure of a bond that a wetter mix will have. Sanding 407 does produce dust - not airbourn dust. The tarmat under the boat is pink with the stuff.]

[Tony G]

Ebb,
I used the El'cheapo fairing compound this time around when I filled in the forward ports. At first I thought I made a BIG mistake because it remained somewhat 'soft' for a day or two. While I was pouting about my blunder, kickin' cans and such the stuff turned solid. So I guess one has to sand it in that time frame when it's not too soft and not too hard. But I was happy as heck to toil a few extra hours with the homemade long board when I found it hard and realized I wouldn't have to resort to digging it out with solvents and a putty knife. I think it took four or five build-ups to get to a 'feel' that I was satisfied with. Yah, it has to go on thin(a big thanks to my dad for 'letting' me work in his bodyshop when I was in highschool-and to think I thought all of that other stuff was more important).
Those Gougeon brothers got most of my income a few years ago. Don't get the impression I don't like their product. I liked it alot, learned from it alot, had alot of fun with it too. Didn't know there was so much one could do with epoxy! Not just boats. But I think it was YOU in one of your previous post regarding 'poxies that convinced me to try one of the less famous labels. Glad I did-saved a bunch of money.
Like the hickey analogy, helps keep the eroticism up when she's all torn apart. That's next year for me now. Too cold here allready. I just cleaned her up really good for winter and will go into pattern making and alternative layout scheming. Oh yeah-account fattening too. Tony G
p.s. lookee here what you've done

[ebb]

looks real nice. Whose stainless hatches are they? With that wide frame they look Belgian or something. From your top view, hard to tell, but they look closer to the deck than the Bomars I chose.

That foredeck hatch looks a size smaller than the one in front of the mast. What's your plan? Mine is where the anchor selection and a half mile of chain will rust.

Glad you found other epoxy sources, especially for the health reasons I once groused about. You know I don't have Absolute proof of the contaminated epoxy thing, but nobody has come forward on that to counter it, so the silence is my 'proof.'

I'm absolutely certain (Assume Is The Mother of All Foulups) that my mailorder supplier can provide an epoxy I can use in 338's builtin sweet water tanks. NOT West System.

And I'm taking a lot on faith and other worker's experiences using their 407 product. That's why I've been so explicit. Around the yard nobody has said anything negative - but the caveat is: Do not use 410 (the tan filler) under a dark painted hull. Not sure what happens, but I assume the paint lifts off.

So this really is a sucker punch to me. Why would you sell something to a bunch of amatuers (professionals aren't going to pay 7/11 prices for cute little boxes) that you can't use in conjunction with the goddam "System"??? You maybe Need the lighter stuff to finish off the fairing with big number grits. Right?

Even if I planned a white hull, would I use something that's going to maybe peel off a thousand hours flawless shine? If the hull gets too hot?

So I'm always going to sweat the 407! And I'm going to have to find a finishing off compound from somewhere else (since I can't trust my own formulations!) I remember Smith & Co used to have very light white two-part fairing compounds. Gotta check it out.

[Tony G]

I forgot all about the water tank issues! That was something I was going to keep an eye on and check into. The mind is a terrible thin to waste. Those hatches are Bomar. One is 16.5 square and the other 13.25 square. Thought they might brighten the place up a bit and move some air through. They are 'seconds' we snagged from Pompanette LLC. Miniscule cast flaws on the spigot that won't show and won't cause problems sealing. Just reaping the benefits of a wasteful society(saved about a case of Glen Livet)or...er...so. But I've sworn to give up my vices for a better boat . Wish we had a yard near here to reap the benefit of experience. Ten minutes of conversation can reveal a whole lot more than ten minutes of reading! That sounds bad-strike that note Tony G

[ebb]

Captain T, Up above here - dunknow what ElCheapo you used, but we do know it was epoxy. I dunknow what epoxy is cheap?? Some paint store type places have two-part epoxy filler in jars, some have a couple nougat bars you cut and mix. Smith&Co make a rot repair kit that has a white filler, none of it is cheap! But depending on the temperature some of these fillers can take a week to harden up.

I just happened to stop by Smith&Co, the plant, where they retail too.
They have a one gallon kit (1/2 and 1/2) for $125 (!) of their Fill-It, which they put in their rot repair kits. But the stuff was originally, and I think it still is, the only ready-made filler in the market, the microbaloons and cabosil and whatever are mixed in already into the two parts. One has some color in it so you know when it's blended. It has a 3 hr pot life at 70 degrees, 16 hrs at 28 degrees. Hey, you minisotans can work clear thru the winter!!! That is if you are filling.

That's the rub. I don't think this will tool any better tham 407. But IMCO it ends up about as hard as the topsides. IT DOES NOT SAG. Steve Smith has a product here, but I don't know if It has yet caught on. I bought a sample to try, $20! I've used the filler for years, just not in this application

I just don't know why certain products become fashionable, like westsystem, others take forever to catch on. I overheard this young athletic sailer, who I've never seen with as much as a scraper in his mit, trying to impress an attractive gal who Was scraping her bottom - he was saying that westsystem was the only good stuff and don't get the junk local stuff from TAP. You know, the stuff I've been working with succesfully for a couple years.

I'll mix up a wad of the Fill-It, try it in a low spot, and report back, Tony.
Not advertised as a fairing filler but will sand to a feather edge. They did make a 'glazing' filler once that had the consistency of coolwhip, I think it had too many lethal solvents in it. Remember it smelled Strong. Smith&Co have a Hazardous Non Waranty Can't Be Made Safe label on they products.

[marymandara]

You know...
If you do not have a huge amount of fairing to do, and are only looking to fill a localized area, you can use Z-spar Splash Zone. Don't use it on anything you aren't going to paint, as the water drippage is a permanent splashzone-colored stain. Does not cake-frost with a spreader lika fairing compound...you sort of squidge it in with wet fingers. Boat Building with play-doh. It does have considerable durability, and it is very sculptable, which can come in handy. also shapes, files, sands very nicely.

Not exactly the stuff for getting rid of little ripples, but there are some times and places that it really is trick stuff.

Dave

[ebb]

Capt Dave,
Looks like I'll have to put on a hat to sneek into westwhatever and take a look at this wonderous dough. Didn't get what you meant about the splash zone and the stain. So what is it, a sandable watermix fixall? It is the minor filling stuff that sands to dust but fills every imperfection - that I'm looking for.

Recall a large tube of one part 3M made years ago. It sanded absolutely S m o o o t h.

My problem with paint fillers is that I think they are too soft to put on the topsides. I mean the hull sides. It's a hard life out there