EBB's PHOTO GALLERY THREAD

[ebb]

Thanks Ben,
Had forgot about the Rostand collection. Visited that Historical Arts site a couple times but don't find it too visitor friendly.
But I think both fittings are worthy of further inquiry.
Must say my first take of the SELF-LOCKING BOLLARD CHOCK was more like seeing a Victorian sausage making tool than a rope cradle.
No. 2447 (comes in 5" and 6" length) the base of the larger one is 1 1/4" wide. Estimating:
The height inside the chock is 1 1/2". It is just under two inches wide at the thinest point of the bollards, which are about 1/2" wide there. Stated rope size is 'UP TO 1". The blade keeper is 1/2" wide, but there is no way of knowing how thick it is or how it is closed and opened. Would assume 5/16" FHMS bronze fasteners. Imco this fitting is light to medium duty, kind of pretty but not robust.


Ole fisheye wants to see the locking mechanism of the keeper befor even asking about the cost
I mean if you bend the blade off a little nipple or somthing like a cabinet latch, it becomes problematic.
I'm trying to imagine streaming a drogue off the stern in a howling storm.

The bollard itself is beautiful. Looks like the pattern was lifted from an already well used original!

[mbd]

Hey Ebb, it looks like Deep Blue Yacht Supply carries chocks similar to Tim Lackey's. I got my mooring bit from them and was happy with the company. Buck Algonquin - you can get them in various sizes and bronze too.

[Tony G]

Geeze, Mike. I wish I had known about DBYS before I jumped... Those mooring bits look much more substantial than the one we bought. And now I'd feel bad selling it to someone else because I know there is a better piece at a better price out there. Who ever would have thought it would be this tough to have a conscience.

Ebb it's dang near warm enough for me to break into deep storage. I'll take some close ups of the mid-rail chocks so you can get a feel on the curves. They are not as smooth as the locking/captive chock Ben posted above. Thems smooooth! I wonder, can one file and polish burnished bronze? That may be a way to 'soften' those edges (which are getting progressively knifeier with each passing minute in my mind).

[ebb]

Mike, Good BuckAlgonquin source there. Thanks.
Tony, imco you definitely can mess with bronze.
Can file and grind hard edges rounder and buff them back without sneezing.
I wouldn't try it with stainless.

Thing I discover is it is too easy to think up an upgrade.
When I get into the new project, IT takes over. I stop thinking. Little problems happen.
And the unretrievable seconds disappear into months and years.
Tim Lackey's skenes are almost perfect. All he did was get lucky and bolt them in place.
There is nothing he had to do to make them better.

The HA Rostand shenes are fine for casual tying up.
Without a straight-on view of the fitting the dimensions can't be extrapolated. But they seem rather flat. (While Mike's Buckaroonie looks quite round inside like Tim's.) Casting looks strong and handsome.
BUT there isn't much room in the Skene Bow Chock for a chaffing wrap on the line, maybe the 6" size has to be used.
I'm convinced that warps and rodes should be at least 5/8" six or eight braid specific anchor line.
And the type of chaffing stuff should be something that disapates heat and lets in cooling waterm - not sure what that stuff is.
It isn't hard garden hose but something more porus and probably thicker.
The bollard looks OK - in the straight on picture - but what happens to the space between the horns when you turn the fitting? If a line is coming off a cleat at an angle to the chock, how much
of a twist in the chock cancels out the space for the line, wrapped line? The line can't make a jog through the horns. Has to be fair.

I'm serious about decent leads off the boat and I may have to take the TIME
to make a clay model from the photos because vendors don't ever give compleat dimensionss of fixtures. Probably because the manufacturer doesn't think e nwant it either.

Have a picture on the kichen wall that came from the cruisersforum site years ago.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachm...0/cleat_origin..
That won't come up, but it is a cleat/chock combo that is attached at the RAIL.
The cleat is on the inside, lower than the chock, and sideways, horizonal with the deck - the chock is on top of the rail. It is a single molded bronze fitting. The base of the cleat turns the corner up onto the rail and becomes the rounded throat of the chock. Nice. Sculpting coud be bollarde/rounded better.

The rail on the A/C is probably too short for this fitting from a larger boat - but it's clever. If you are onboard with the concept,
our rail (with maybe a wood cap) could have a nice rounded bronze skene-chock on it - and a strong cleat mounted somehow very close with the chock but bolted through the deck. Wanna try it? Problem is the pull is UP on the bolts rather than in shear as in the mystery dual fitting.

The mystery fitting is shown with a rope eye around the cleat led thru the open chock.
The plaits of the eye splice are overboard, free, and not rubbing on anything.
No wad of chaffing gear is needed except for, say, leathering the eye maybe
because there is no line to stretch and wear from mooring cleat to a rail chock like we normally have.
What's great is that the line is instantly available by slipping the eye or undoing turns off the cleat.
It's impossible to imagine the line crawling out of this fitting. Somebody was thinking here!

The A/C bow could have nice rounded bronze chock/cleats if you can find them. Warps could alternately lead from inboard mooring cleats or samson post to opposite sides: EG port cleat to starboard chock, to get a better fairer lead off the boat.

[mbd]

Wouldn't the "fairest" lead be straight over the bow? Why not set up an anchor roller or something similar on your stemhead fitting to use for a mooring line? You could capture the line with a big enough u-bolt bolted through the deck for extra security. It could do double-duty to contain your anchor line when not on a mooring.

[ebb]

Aye! It would be, Mike, the fairest lead.
This boat may have another piece of lumber or aluminum up there on the bow. The lead could be from an inboard samson post. It's going to be complicated losing weight from the bow, but it's serious now! IE, litlgull will have drastic measures to remove weight from the bow.

But I'm also prejudiced against using the anchor roller channel as a fair lead for rope. For anchoring.
That's certainly what they have become, especially the longer ones that bolt to a good piece of the deck and become a short bowsprit. Strong enough to take the weight of the boat. O sure! But structural and load data for a ULB-3 doesn't exist.

Really don't know, do I, but in a blow the only secure lead off the boat will be over a big bolted chock on the rail. not the anchor housing. Afterall it's only sheet metal
Don't remember where I got convinced, but an anchor roller's only job is to launch and retrieve its anchor and lead chain. After the anchor is set its warp and chaffing gear moves over to a rail chock. Move the warp back into the launcher when bringing it back aboard. Should be able to reach over and pick it up and move it....no stanchions or pulpit tube in the way.

And the anchor ought to be removed from the launcher whilst underway. Of this I've been persuaded. Is this a Pardey thing? Nope, it's a weight thing.

That anchor and roller gear will weigh in at 35/45lbs out there on the nose. Plus the weight of a second anchor and any chain and rode in the forepeak.
The mouth of the roller should lead rope fair but it doesn't. The bugle is only designed to retrieve chain and anchor from straight down or straight ahead. It's also possible to bend the roller especially if it is cantilevered without an added strut. More weight.

There recently was a UTube video that showed an untended moored boat dipping and lifting its bow in a blow. The boat danced and dipped in a wave and came up with the mooring rode caught in the anchor fluke housed in the roller. Then the bow of the boat started tearing itself apart. And pulling the boat under. In this case the boat was moored and the anchor was the boat's anchor ready to be deployed.*
Lesson one: It's nice and tidy to keep your anchor where any line off the bow can hook on to it. It can happen even in a marina. There was/is a picture that showed the very thing happened in a slip.

I'm convinced that IDEAL leads from a chock off the rail should be universally fair, no sharp angles.
Should lead fair at any angle: aft - forward - down. Down and to the side. sideways at any angle.
UP?
Of course, YES to that. That Rostand bollard with the blade closer would be hard, me thinks, on nylon surging in a rising Panama lock where lines lead up to the canal sides far above. Or a pier or a wall in a big tide harbor.

If you are going to fair lead the painter through the roller, maybe the keeper loop over the channel should be better thought out and stronger than the flimsy looking bars and straps that came with store-bought rollers.


*There is a strong case for anchoring - if we insist on keeping the rode/chain in the anchor-roller channel - by using a simple piece of gear called
THE TURTLE.
[Reese Palley, There Be No Dragons: How to cross a big ocean in a small sailboat. Sheridan House 1998, pgg 116/117]

The Turtle is a short piece of nylon line with a chain hook at its outer end,
connected to the boat AT OR NEAR THE WATERLINE to an eye or special strong bronze fitting.

Take the tension off the anchor roller by hooking the chain or rolling hitch to the warp and have the turtle take the weight of the chain.
No chafe on the nylon. As we might get if rigging a bridle at deck level.
We've lowered the 'lever' effect of the anchor rode by taking it off the bow and putting it nearer the waterline.
Thereby inncreasing the scope.
And if we are using all chain rode, we've cancelled the noise the link makes in the roller.
A decklevel BRIDLE can be used to take the weight of the warp away from the anchor roller. It, itself will have some chafe issues when leads are not symetrical. It is rigged too high on the boat to be really useful in worsening conditions.

[Bill]

Hey Bill et al,

Here, finally, are some pics - in series - showing the boat's new pump board installation.

A piece of leftover 3/8" Lexan with a shelf added to hold the high water Shurflo 1500 8Amp,
and a couple small bronze screws (can't be seen) to hold the screen clip bracket on the small Shurflo 1000 3.75 Amp.

The small pump is mounted on one side and at the very bottom with its hose pointing aft "through" a 'L' shaped hole in the pull-board.

The pump and attached hose can be lifted off and removed from the unit.
The large high water pump is fitted to the board with its hose also pointed aft and held on tightly with a nylon tie.

Assume the small pump to be replaceable - and the large expensive pump never used.

The WaterWitch digital sensors are screwed on to the board with their wires blue taped.
There is no room in the Ariel's narrow bilge/sump for traditional float switches. At least not in what litlgull has behind her ballast.

For the big pump WaterWitch has a high water alarm with a stand alone buzzer and mute fixture not shown.

[Bill]

Following photos show the method of making a slide holder for the board with epoxy.

The white rectangle mold is made with polyethylene sheet material.

The bilge hull sides are prepped. The mold's two ridge shapes filled with epoxy mishmash and glued to the sides. Not much pressure is needed to hold the molds while curing. I used balled up plastic film, jammed down in!

Because of the truncated mold shape the mold pops right off after the epoxy is hard.

Turns out there is just enough space to set the board in its place
It is held quite firmly when housed.

Now we have to hook up the various wires and run the hose.

Both pumps use same 1 1/8" Vinyl hose. Small pump hose will exit into cockpit.

Large pump hose will exit high up on the hull, with syphon break loop. Not sure just where,
but the hose for efficiency has to be as short as possible.

[Commander 147]

Now that is a sweet setup.

I was planning on the dual pump setup on Destiny and I really like the way that is set up. Easy to maintain which is something that will be an ongoing thing with the small pump.

[c_amos]

Ebb,

Very nice work!

You have the same system as I have... except;

I use an Atwood 750 for the small pump
I use a Rule 2000 (Gold) for the large pump
My buzzer is mounted up near the companionway (it is loud enough to hear in a hurricane... you can test it and hear it from the parking lot in the marina).

And (as usual)....

Your install is about 100x neater, cleaner, and more photogenic then my install.

For more discussion of this, and the thinking that lead me to the same system you have here see this thread.

[ebb]

Craig,
SailFar is indeed a lively one with great posts by many sailors including yourself.
One day when my credentials are in order I'll see if I can rejoin the SAIL FAR community.
By then I will have learned not to talk at length - but in short.

Don't know who gets credit for the bilge pump pull board idea. It's now OURS! Imco it is a great solution for our narrow bilges. Happy to add two more cents.
Like great music tunes, we can build on them and improvise. (I'm on the slide whistle!)
Capt Pauley has a version. Don't know about MaineSail.
More the merrier!

Maybe my contribution to tidying up the sump is a method of making the slide board holders that are merely mishmash* cleats pasted onto the sides of the bilge.
Rediculous simple to make if you have the polyethylene sheet to construct the molds.
The three polyethylene rails that make the mold-form are 1/2" tall. The width at 'top' 1/2". The base 5/8". Tablesaw blade set off square a couple of degrees and the material just run through to make these forms. As cast, the ridges are 1/2" wide at top, the 5/8" width is pasted to the hull. The space between two ridges is those dimensions inverted.
Cut extra 'rail' pieces and used them as inverted spacers. To build the mold-form, screwed 1/4" polyethylenne to the 'bottom' wider side of the rails. The pics above should be helpfull.
Dropped the spacers out and cut the long mold in half, cut 45 degrees at the ends of the two forms on the chopsaw and screwed on short 1/4" thick endpieces to tie the form together. The forms you see in the fotos are about 12" long.
This was made from 1/2" and 1/4" scrap at hand. Could use thin ply for the 1/4" piece with release material on the inside like seranwrap or mylar.
Certainly is possible to make this simple form with plywood and wood strips using wax as the release. Polyethylene sheet is available from TAP Plastics and McMasterCarr. 5/8" #6 woodscrews.

When seated the pump pullboard is jammed tight - when it's lifted, it very soon is free of the confines of the new guides.
This is good because the pull board wants to be tilted and even turned out of the hole ASAP.
There must be a dozen more ways to hold the board, whether plastic or wood strip.


The bilge in the Ariel gets narrower going aft - that means the pull board is at a shorter angle than right angle to the hull sides. I got lucky in this improv because it worked out that there was just enuf room for the 3/8" lexan to track and end up tight in the slot because of the truncated shape of the space between the guides.
It also turned out that the sides of the keel way down in there are pretty straight and the straight molds fit flat.
[The polyethylene strips that make up the mold are quite bendy. Imco it would be entirely possible to bend these molds against mildly curved hull sides. You'd need a good way to hold them when filled with mishmash solidly in place against the hull until set.]
Used doorskin 'L' jigs to hold and position the molds where they had to be, And relative to each other..... got lucky!
Used some "60 Second" Devcon blister pack epoxy - havn't seen that stuff befor - couple dabs
and the doorskin jigs were stuck in place. Pretty good glue that: after set, the ply pieces were popped off with a chisel and the carbide scrapper got the 60 second off. Right....longer than 60 sec.

How often do we get to hand hold an epoxied piece in place long enuf to have it set? 60 secs gives a bit of sliding adjustment time to get the jigs just so.
Could have used good old double side carpet tape but risked it pulling away at the wrong time!
There is just enough outward lean to the hull sides so that the goop filled molds rested in the minimalist jigs nicely without having to be jammed in place.
But still pushed in a large ball of used plastic film between the molds. Nothing moved.

Thanks Jerry!
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*mishmash: a fairly stiff mix of 2-part laminating epoxy, chopped strand, and fumed silica. Befor positioning the loaded molds on the jigs, scrub the prepared areas with a bristle brush and liquid epoxy. Not too much, just prime. If it is wet, wipe it 'dry' with paper towel. Insurance that
the guides will bond to the hull. If you've slathered the temporary plywood jig holders, pop them off before the epoxy fully sets so that they don't become permanent!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
Went with Shurflo because around the net there aren't many complaints about them I could find. The 1500 on the board has 6' of head
Recently Practical Sailor did a comparison test of submersible bilge pumps - Shurflo came out on top I believe. Surprisingly so did a Rule. The philosophy of the two pump pull-board is a good one (altho my interpretation may be off). And the concept seems to be specifically designed FOR the Ariel/Commander sump area. Any Alberg.
A smaller, cheaper pump sits close to the bottom and does all the menial work. It's not THAT cheap but certainly cheaper than the bigger one mounted above it.... that is set up with a highwater alarm that has a remote dial and mute button.
In theory the big one is the standby and will always be fresh and eager when needed. It would be possible to to mount an even larger pump, but I worry what the draw would be - not that it would matter when trying to stay afloat in the middle of the ocean.
I can't see WHERE even one traditional float switch can be put into our sump? That's why we went with the WaterWitch system. Both pumps should have a manual toggle over-ride in case the WaterWitch sensors don't work. There may be other digital systems out there. Hoses from a couple manual lift pumps also need access in those tight quarters. There's only room for hose ends in litlgull's sump.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________
If the smaller Shurflo's exit hose is up into the cockpit, that hose can have a little bit of out-of-sight-out-of-mind location to it.
BUT, the hose that leads the big pump overboard, no matter where the thru-hull exit is in the topsides, it will have a vacuum breaker and
also an accessible SEACOCK to shut the hole. Where and how has not been easy to solve. Has to be visually recognizable and easy to maintain & work the lever. Probably the cockpit port locker which gets fairly regular use.

[ebb]

And grooving with FREDDIE NYLON'S PLASTIC STUDS:
Changed horses midstream [again], assume it is an improvement.

[It's important that the description here won't make much sense
unless it is realized that the window openings were previously prepared
by filling in the surrounding space between cabin and liner with epoxy paste.*]

Thought that 1/4", 5/16"OD, barrel nuts (sex bolts) in 304 and 316 from McMCarr was the way to go to mount slab-on Lexan ports to the cabin sides - no hex heads, nice shiney round heads inside and out.
Had the lexan cut, rounded, sanded, prepped, and drilled with 5/16" holes - matched to 5/16" holes drilled thru to the inside of the cabin where the barrel nuts would be.
BUT then it FINALLY dawned on me that poking machine screws through sticky butyl taped lenses and marrying them up inside with barrel nuts wasn't an option - what would keep them from turning? My arms weren't long enough.
And the nagging problem: how to paint the cabin inside with 50 blingy screw heads poking out around the four lights.....wasn't going to paint over them, was I?

So the natural choice became 1/4" 304 T- NUTS - which also happen to have a 5/16" OD barrel that is 1/2" long but with a 3/4"D flange on one end and really sharp stamped spikes at 90degrees around the perimeter. Not so sexy.
Nasty little buggers...... but could be POTTED WITH EPOXY into the cabin wall.
Found a counterbore from McMCarr (cat.pg.2458 - a short 3/4" bit with a 5/16" interchangable smooth pilot that would, and did, precisely counter-bored the inside 5/16" holes into 3/4" diameter holes.
- drilled out each location stopping the countersink just at the cabin molding!!! Used a sharpie pen to depth mark the bit, and drilled easy-does-it.

At this point plain nutz, prepped EACH T-nut with Dremel sanding disks, scuffing up all reachable surfaces so that the epoxy gel filler had more surface area to stick to. Made up some temporary thread protection by screwing polyethylene** all-thread pieces into each barrel - loaded up each of the 52 fittings with gel using a 2oz syringe (TAP Plastic) and pressed each gooper into its perfectly sized hole.
Was going to use the plastic all-thread pieces to position T-nuts exactly in the hole relative to the cabin exterior - but normal s.s. nuts proved to be too tight to turn onto the plastic.

Cabin sides - previously filled with epoxy goop between the cabin and the liner -
have some variation in overall thickness around the window cutouts. T-nuts with a 1/2" length barrel worked for almost every location (also had some 3/8" barrel length on hand, just in case) - and stayed exactly where they were pressed in wet.
The T-nut flange in almost very hole inside ended up slightly below the surface of the liner inside.
The holes are now disappeared and the surface, faired with goop and 407.
There's NO telltale around the window openings (What stinkun T-nuts?) and there is instead an uninterrupted new coat of white primer.

Will mount Lexan with 1/8" offWHITE butyl tape. Squeeze out is inevitable - and necessary. Controling squeeze-out has to be done by introducing O-rings or washers around each screw as the lexan is positioned for the install. The light bronze tinted lex is clear - the butyl is white - and nearly all O-rings are black or red. Maybe 6/6Nylon washers, which are white. An alternative are 1/16" thick and fairly narrow polycarbonate washers (from McMC) that are clear, more durable, more pricey, and maybe just mo'betta.
Screw length has to be watched. T-nuts are open on both ends.
Could turn them in and run them out the now blind end into the cabin - will try to avoid this as the butyl tape is squeezed to its final thickness.
Each fitting had a piece of plastic all-thread screwed in that filled the entire barrel thread to the bottom of the flange - keeping epoxy out. The plastic studs also provided an indispensable 'handle' for holding, gooping and positioning. And also, screwed all the way into the flange allowed filling the shallow dips inside with epoxy gel. Hard to figure how this ballet is done without these so convenient plastic allthread studs.

Wanted to use a nut on the allthread outside to draw the gooped up T-nut into alignment - wasn't possible.
But it seems the process worked anyway. After epoxy set every piece of plastic backed out leaving clear thread all the i/2" way into the flange and the cosmetic evidence of NO fastenings around the windows inside. The counter bore allowed the T-nuts no wiggle room to move out of alignment. Some are probably out of square - a little. Have to assume Incurable Curmudgeon drilled the original holes square.
Anybody want any virgin sex bolts?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
Don't know if this really wants pointing out.
Recently had a short exchange at an Alberg Fleet breakfast with a new Triton owner who had just epoxy glued his polycarbonate slabs to the cabin sides!
Certainly simple and direct....I think.
Conceivably the immobilized polycarbonate - which is more flexible and gummy than the cabin - could move with heat and cold and stay stuck. If acrylic is used it will shatter, imco, without question. He had visited a circumnavigator's yacht and seen, first hand, lexan lights that were glued on that way - and said to have gone around the world with nary an errant leak....
Only the French can do stuff like that!
If your cabin is 1/4" fiberglass laminate and you cut some holes in it to let the light in....
you might glue some 1/4" polycarbonate over the holes to keep the water out - and hope all movement and flexing will equalize and keep the windows in place.
I still don't think it'll work on any Alberg.... and said so.

The receiving T- nuts potted into the cabinside in the above ap are as immobile as the cabin sides. The 3/8" plastic lens floats on a pad of ever flexible butyl tape.
1/4" PHMS are screwed in through slightly oversized 5/16" holes in the lens with a fat EPDM washer under the head against the plastic. Could almost argue these screws, or rather the plastic lenses, are 'floating' .
Have to hope there is room enough in the thru-holes for the lexan to breathe a little. Maybe no.
I guess we'll have to see what happens.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
* The window openings in the cabin of A338 some time ago had their perimeters filled - the very approximate 1/2" space between the cabin and the liner inside the cabin - with epoxy mishmash.
This fix isolates the window openings from any water intrusion into the liner which exits inside over the shelves at the hullsides in as-built Ariels.
This process consequently stiffens and supports the cabin sides in way of the huge openings. Upgrade has been described here and in other threads.
** Mentally stuck on this material. On going back into the McMC catalog discovered there isn't any polyethylene threaded rod. So it has to be Nylon. Epoxy doesn't stick to this material either. I found the 6' long threaded piece sticking out of a tube in a corner of the shop and just ASSUMED. Easy to cut, of course, but very hard to make it easy to screw into a nut, the end has to be clean and trimmed just right. This material also comes as STUDS in the McMC catalog, Suggest that, if you thunk this single-use method of keeping the threads clear of glue is worth it, you spring for the studs. They easily screw into the T-nutz. 1 1/2" would be my choice.

[ebb]

Update.
This IS the easy way to mount lexan lenses.
And it may not be the best waterproof way - have my doubts because I cheated on the number of fastenngs - but maintenance-wise it IS the only way, because the windows can be removed in a trice, recaulked, replaced without really sweating it. 3/8" p.carbonate is very stiff stuff, it looks impossible to draw fastenings tight enough to bend waves into the sheet. The system does not call for bonding, fastenings are not torked.
Butyl tape comes onsite in a cooler after being unrolled cold from storage in the fridge at home, cut to approximate length with Fiskars and rolled back up into a loose roll.. Still sticky when cold but not sticky sticky.

Place lens on a packing quilt inside up, unroll butyl around the perimeter bearing surface. Use an awl to locate and open holes in the butyl - and from the underside (outside) press thru 1/4" PHMS that each have a 3/32" thick EPDM washer pressed on against the head. The 5/8"D rubber washers seat into a 1/16" deep counterbore in the plastic. EPDM is very squishy under pressure and needs the countersink rim to help keep its shape. Doesn't always work. (PHMS can of course be backed out later and a s,s, washer added on top of the rubber one to get more even pressure.)

The tape is getting warmer the more time it takes to push the screws thru. But the screws get more-or-less stuck to the tape holes and the 1/16" thick clear polycarbonate spacer washer can be dropt over the threads and pressed into the butyl. The piece can be rotated to work on - or break for lunch and left unattended - there's no viscous tube goop to skin over or make a mess! Don't need gloves.
The lens can be picked up, all pieces stuck, and taken to the window opening. Two nylon studs partially screwed in on the bottom row serve as locators to position the lens. Again, NO MESS! Then feel for the T-nut and happily turn each PHMS home.
Miscalculated what the finished length of the screws was to be, so had to changeout longer for shorter, ending up with 3/4". However if hard washers need to be added to cap the rubber washers, the longer ones (7/8") could be back again. We'll see.

Must go without saying that all the time the windows were handled: marked, cut, routed, sanded, drilled and scuffed, the protective plastic films inside and out were carefully left on the pieces. Film got a little ratty and corners came unstuck - but the polycarbonate has to be kept covered during the whole process.
This is especially the case when the plastic is tinted or UV treated (which means it has an inside & outside)
- a scratch on this techy sheet canNOT be buffed out.

As the fourth window was being attached, it happened that the very last screw (really!) did not meet up with its inside partner. It was an empty hole. NO T-nut. WHAT the hell...
Couldn't believe it. Did ALL the holes. So I located the well-used and pretty dull counerbore* and began to drill in the 3/4"D T-nut bore I had somehow missed. Peeked thorugh the hole and saw that it matched the hole in the lens. But immediately hit hard shiney metal and DIDN"T bust a carbide. The T-nut was there alright, but off by a half an inch or so embedded like an aching wisdom tooth. Still shaking my head, that second hole: what happened?
Got it out. Royally screwed up the integrity of the surrounding liner, filler, and ancient cabin polyester - regooped it, rebuilt it, redrilled it, repotted the T-nut - and now the repair awaits primer and the remounting of the fourth lens.
Damn refurbishing gods, how do I get on their wrong side?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
* This counterbore plus one pilot costs about $50. Found at the bottom of pg 2458 in the online MMCarr catalog. Like a champ it drilled more than fifty 3/4" wide holes 1/2" deep in the old cabin liner and new epoxy filler. That would add up to about two feet of solid polyester, glass and epoxy for that HSS bit.
BUT the four flute bit can have the flute bottoms hand honed leaving the sides untouched - as sharpening them would change the counterbore's diameter! For its use on the boat here, its exact diameter bore contributed to the success of the job. It is conceivable that in the future more T'nutz and PHMS may have to be added to make the lenses more waterproof. With a steady hand, extra fastenings can be drilled for IN PLACE. Disassembled, fine tuned, rebedded, maybe TefGelled, and returned to the cabinside. Extra work but do-able.
Might describe counterbores as flat bottom countersinks. The bit leaves a clean flat surface exactly at 90 degrees to the pilot.
[Now have added more pilots and a 5/16" to the 5/8" counterbore (used for the EPDM washer) so that adding fastenings later with the lens in place can in theory be done.[

TEFGEL
[recently Forespar introduced their teflon anti-corrosion product: (not KY for stallions)MareLube TEF45 - 45 refers to their formula having 5% more teflon than Tefgel (making it 5% better obviously!] ,
must be considered to ultimately waterproof this system. PHMS are 316, T-nuts are 304 - in salt they should be isolated. If any screws get backed out they may get TefGelled. But the butyl should perform as hoped: stay forever sticky between the lens and the cabinside, won't let any water under pressure inside (doesn't get displaced), EPDM washers form a seal under each head, and butyl squished in around threads creates the waterproofing.....want to assume the embedded T-nut is far enough removed from exposure not to need any extra protection. Famous last words.
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Bills next post won't make any sense, because there was an idiot's post here, must have been mine - fortunately now erased. Hope this cabin window stuff is credible.
Apologise for exercising Bill's incredible patience!!!!

[Bill]

Ebb, you were able to edit a long post (#391) at 6:41 AM today?? I just edited your 7:37 AM long post (#392) with none of the problems you describe. Maybe the problem is with your computer or LAN?

[ebb]

CABIN WINDOWS
Approached the decision of 'slabbing-on' polycarbonate windows rather piecemeal. Only now, after the four lenses are installed, is there a whole picture - and how it might have been done better and less awkward.

The pan head machine screws bother me - now that the job is done.
The 316 PHMS come from McMasterCarr. Precisely made. Big heads flat rounded. Rim around the bottom of the head is also rounded slightly. That makes them stand out like military buttons, even directly on the rubber washers. They look like they are adrift from the work & not snugged up properly. When focused on other projects around the boat these 'proud' fastenings seem to grab the eye... Annoying.

Know same RHMS size with phillips eyes are smaller in diameter and completely flat on the bearing surface. Even if they are a bit taller than the pans, they'd appear tidy - their smaller cross holes less significant than the pan's extra large. Less head diameter dictates metal washers added on top of the 5/8" rubber ones - imco they are needed anyway under turning screws to protect soft rubber from deforming. The effect would be compact, integrated and correct. Ahdono about professional - shuda done it the first time.

THUS & SO
This IS about aesthetics: Too expensive now, but 1/4" 316 HEXHEAD capscrews for the lenses would have been pretty nice. We think of hex heads as a meat and potato fastener, but when you open the white boxes from McMCarr they bling like metalic crystals. And about as pricey! Each set, nut-washer-screw, perfectly matched. The heads, especially nice, are half the height of the PHMS, much classier and have no EYES. The dodger should have been installed with these too. Faceted heads in small sizes are much less busy than cross-eyed attention grabbers.


MAST
More practical: After the experience removing #8-20 RH phillips sheet metal screws from the mast track - spinning power bits round in defiant heads with the cordless hammmerdrill ..... making it necessary to grind them off and drill them out.... came upon the great notion... that the screws being trashed were not only softer metal than the bits but also not a smart design for turning.
Potted LED blinks on in cortex: what's the point of driving one hundred hole-in-head screwpins back into the track again, when some day, for sure, they'll ruin another fool's day?
Got a better idea? S u r e .
#8-32 316 HEX machine screws. (1/4" W head, less than 1/8" H) Perfect fit in the channel of the old 7/8" s.s. T track. Including the driver socket.
Not only will they look better but use a common driver that's designed for metal work and comes in choices. Why do we insist on using a POINTY bit to remove these dreaded embedded agitators when a nut driver or wrench or socket will do a much better job with a SIX POINT HEADLOCK!

And rather than appearing SO yachtsy fartsy with knobbly jewelry, suppose we use practical hexheads wherever we can.
Saw photos on the net of a gooseneck mast plate up-grade newly mounted with cap screws. Way more macho than cross-eyed roundheads.
Goodlooking 316 1/4-28 capscrews! Come as short as 3/8". Standard head: 7/16"Wide but only 5/32"Height.
With the price of anything 316, slim hexhead capscrews will have the same practical look as jeans by RobertoCavalli.

[EDIT - correction]
The full range of STAINLESS 316 HEX HEAD CAP SCREWS is available with narrow(fine) thread: 1/4-28 - 5/16-24 - 3/8-24 - 7/16-20 -5/8-18 - 3/4-16 - McMasterCarr pgs 3145-3146. They come fully threaded and partial threaded. Partial means that the threads are stopped and a certain number of inches on the shank are not threaded.

MAST THRU-BOLTS
Imco Correct length for the 1/2" bolts for sheave and spreaders/shroud tangs makes sure that unthreaded shank rests in BOTH holes in the mast. No fine thread partials come long enough. (mast is 3 1/2" wide, OD - adding washers, plastic spacers, tangs figure 1/2" more plain = 4") Have to use 6 1/2 - 7" partial thread standard bolts, which have long enough unthreaded shanks for this app.
The shank must bear clean and threadless on the 1/8" aluminum wall in the holes on BOTH sides. That's the trick.

A HSS die will cut more thread if needed to enable torqueing the nut (when all the washers and tangs are on the bolt) to close the assembly WITHOUT SQUEEZING THE MAST WALL. Looking to wrench the nut TIGHT against the end of the thread - yet leave all hangers with a skoch wiggle room. (currently hexhead 1/2" 316-13 partials from McMCarr: nom 7" have 3 7/8" untreaded shank)
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A bit on our ALUMINUM CORROSION. Please correct me where I'm wrong ! ! !

It's an assumption that fine thread hexheads of any size will be easier than fine thread slot or philips to back out. Don't know a soul who's using hexheads in hisorher mast track. And the next scheduled track removal maintenance for A-338 is around year 2057.
Another law of unpainted, anodize-long-gone, 45 year old mast disassembly.... is that the finer the thread the LESS corrosion is found in the aluminum, the more easy to loosen and remove.
The wide thread #8-20 sheetmetal screws Pearson used in the mast track installation created white powder and crevis corrosion* in every one of the hundred-plus holes. The track was literally 'poultice' welded to the mast - while the old s.s. screws that did move came out with sharp threads, there was no significant thread remaining in any aluminum hole. Imco the track was ready to fly off the mast.
My experience suggests that if you are the first fool to restore your mast, TAKE IT ALL OFF - INCLUDING THE TRACK!
Finer thread means less molecular-space for sea water to stagnate. BUT even a perfect threaded 316 screw in a perfect tapped aluminum hole will have spaces in the corners of the thread that need filling. Lanocoat (anhydrous lanolin) is a traditional waterproofing for threaded fasteners.

*this crevis corrosion (sometimes talked about as 'gasket' corrosion) is a lesser evil of the SAME vigorous oxygen deprived corrosion we find bubbling under painted aluminum spars.
Believe it's been shown that the real nasty can occur whether the mast is painted, anodized or conversion coated - whether the protection has been breached deliberately or by accident. The breach when moist creates an immediate anodic condition in relation to the coating which becomes cathodic. And a measurable voltage 'charge' is born that causes exchanges of electrons and there's your corrosion! Molecular moisture will stagnate, get sour, and the pH separates producing an acid/base reaction that will change Na and Cl into a more corrosive solution. Double whammy!! Visual evidence depends on unique potentials in the package of chemicals on the mast, so it's not predictable - but can possibly be horrendous. Use a barrier grease on anything deliberately piercing the mast - including pop-rivets. (S.S. pop rivets must be 100% stainless, otherwise you have to punch out the steel mandrel which then weakens the fastening.) Using aluminum pop rivets is dangerous for the same reason AND they are 1/4 the strength of s.s. Favor tapped in fine thread screws.

TEFGEL has the rep for being the most dependable corrosion block for dissimilar metals. 40% PTFE. No silicones, no petro solvents. Apply to BOTH surfaces leaving no voids for water to capillary into fastenings and bedding surfaces. Does not increase resistance used on electrical contacts. Prevents galling of s.s. screw threads driven into s.s matrix. Won't 'cold' flow like lanocote. Use on O-rings, ball & sleeve bearings as a lasting lube.
Get a 2 or 4OZ jar. You'll be using it! Cleanup with mineral spirits.
*CREVICE CORROSION, as a result, refers not only to the valley made by an accidental scratch in coated Al - and also to each fastening crater hole - but also refers to the crevis produced by two pieces of metal bearing cheek-by-jowl together. Plastic film or sheet rubber as an insulator is not enough imco, we must keep water out of the interface. Tefgel doesn't oxidize, never sets, always sticky.
[My argument against using tube synthetic rubber like polysufide under fittings applied to the mast (OR stanchion bases) is that while the material sets up and gets flexible... it's no longer sticky. Therefore if the bond fails (which happens often enough) a crevis situation is born and water is DRAWN in. However, if the rubber is a type like butyl tape: never sets, never gets hard, then water has a better chance of staying out. Will use 20milSPVC pipe wrap AND butyl (or Tefgel for tight fits) as a extra assurance barrier for metal-to-metal or non-metal fittings.]

MINI NYLON BRISTLE BRUSHES (set of five, 1/16" to 3/16", 4" long, ring mounted, $3.95 - from www.micromark.com) * will get TefGel INto the threads IN screw & bolt holes....INsuring that no hidden space is left for water to electrolyte and waste our ancient and elegant masts.
Imco, shipping prices are getting so outrageous that catalogers will put themslves out of business. Local hobby, train, toy shops, gun stores, auto paint stores for these brushes. Blisterpak brand is Hawk or KingSun. Tiniest brush will get compound into the threads of the tiniest screw hole. These are miniature bottle brushes. *(Try www.utopiatools.com/Mini-Brush-Set-Nylon-Bristle)
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Find the Tech thread 'Mast issues and renovation' for current activity on the stick.