Could someone please PLEASE post pics of Little Gull before Captain Ebb sails off into the sunset?? Lots of promises, but no pics - zippo - in the last 2+ years!?? Come you guys out West, it's not like you're buried in snow or sumthin' and can't get to the boat!
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
Wow Mike, I am sorry.... I took some when I was out for a visit last... (?) november? I will see what I can do.Originally Posted by mbd
Could someone please PLEASE post pics of Little Gull before Captain Ebb sails off into the sunset?? Lots of promises, but no pics - zippo - in the last 2+ years!?? Come you guys out West, it's not like you're buried in snow or sumthin' and can't get to the boat!
Much obliged Craig! Hope you took lots and lots!
Mike
Totoro (Sea Sprite 23 #626)
EBB, You are a true master. its funny how artists see things differently than other artists and you hear the phrase "it is what it is "but you you made your vessel what it should have been it truly is a labor of love and an obsession of a perfectionist . My hat is off to you sir you have done a beutiful job on her
Commander 5
These do require a photo for explanation. I'll see what I can do.
First of all, do you need deck level waterways off the boat along the sheer?
I put them in, three to a side (probably should have more) because litlgull now has an extended height toe rail.
This is a 'standup' toe rail like a bulwark rather than a CAP RAIL.
Caprails which are trim pieces you attach to the top of the existing molded toerail
are an addition you find on the Alberg Triton.
Cap rails on an Ariel would not imco raise the level enough to cause a water problem on deck.
Talking about taking water aboard and getting its weight off the deck pronto.
If you are adding something like the upright rail A-338 has, then this is what we did.
As I say I'll find some pixs.
Tony wanted to see thse scuppers close up. If I can't figure how to email them to him I'll snail them.
PreMADE SCUPPER LINER
BEFOR the wood rail was bolted on the toerail, the new scuppers were rough cut out of the existing molded fiberglass toerail.
Shocking!!! When you do this you definitely are opening up the boat, you can see right in. Inside you can see right out!
You have ofcourse a model of what you are doing - so if the scuppers slant as they do on litlgull, cut the toe with that in mind as close as you can.
(I'd first make and have to hand the scupper liner/shell. Not sliced yet.)
Sawsall the toerail with a stiff small tooth bimetal blade fot the down cuts. For the cut along the deckline, a jig saw with a straight cut small tooth bimetal (hacksaw type blade) is also good.]
If you have big curved corrners in your scupper like litlgull's no need to duplicate that in your rough-out. Thickened epoxy.
And you can measure just how wide you have to have your new scupper liner chunks. (At least two inches because of the toerail to deck cove. At deck level)
Previously I had made a nice full rounded edge mold of some length - say two feet, always make more!
It's a very smooth ciabatta or bagette shape about 1 1/2" tall and about 4" wide.
Only the edges on one flat side needs the router with a big roundover bit treatment.
When ready to make up the fiberglass liner put the prepared form rounded side up on a riser (less wide than the form) so that you can easyly tightly wrap it on top and sides. Staples, tape to the riser.
If you cover the curved 'bottom' and the sides with 1/8" lay-up of fiberglass, you'd probably never get the glass off the mold. Even with your 'mold release': seran wrap or mylar.
So the mold form is made with three equal width pieces running the length of the mold. When done you knock the center piece out and the form collapses. Obviously the three piece form is not glued together.
The inside of the fiberglass crust you make will be nice and smooth.
You have layed the glass up on seran wrap which epoxy won't stick to. Using the thicker mylar film will give you an incredibly glassy surface. Epoxy doesn't stick to mylar.
You'll be able to use the form again, many times.
These scuppers go on the boat OPEN side UP.
You won't cut them at 90 degrees because you want the scuppers to slant aft.
The scuppers won't scoop when your rail is in the water that way. And it looks cool. (25 to 30 degrees.)
You cut the crusts oversize and trim them to fit the original toerail profile after you've glued or tacked the pieces in.
You will have 'rough cut' your toerail cut outs into the boat so they are exactly at deck level.
When you position the scupper liner it will be epoxied in so that the thickness of the lay up is above deck level 1/8". Or the thickness of the scupper shell.
This means that big water will go overboard just fine, and the morning dew will collect and descend the thru-deck pipe scupper that Pearson put in just for that purpose (if your A/C has that feature) but that tiny 1/8" rise keeps it from dribbling and staining the topsides. That's the theory.
After glue in wipe the globs and squeeze out away with alcohol/paper towels.. It will make it easier to carve the oversized liner back to the original toerail profile with your dremel and carbide burrs.?
Any imperfections can be filled with fairing compound.*
Photos show a very clean look to the alteration. The backward slant of the scuppers are all exactly the same. Since that show surface (the inside of the shell) was never worked on and is the same as all the others and pristine.
Your caprail or toerail extension bridges the scuppers - so you will have remember to varnish underneath.
You may feel that you should reinforce the scupper liners from underneath with added strips of X-matt. Prop ply pieces topped with mylar underneath the holes with slightly oversized wet strips of X-matt to make a bottom. Mylar topped jigs should fall away after set. You'll be extending the original deck out to the hull at the inside deck level - there will be a little filling to do. Can glue a bit of backing in the side holes so that when you glue the liner in it isn't suspended in the hole on thin cutouts. Depends on how you approach this upgrade.
You may discover that the new scupper will itself do an excellent strong job closing the hole.
There are a hundred ways to do this project. This is sort of how it was done on litlgull.
Some may recall that litlgull's toerail cove INSIDE was filled with strips of wood and mishmash to the inside level of the deck molding. This made bolting the standup toerail a little easier and arguably stronger.
When I violated the old toerails I already had sufficient 'backup' for glueing in the scupper liners.
Hope this helps.
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*fairing compound. You can make your own or buy West System's 407 powdered fairing compound. They also have a 410 fairing material, don't use that. The 407 is a structural formula of fumed silica and phenolic microspheres. When mixed into two-part laminating epoxy it looks like a chocolate brownie mix. Mix into any brand two-part epoxy. Sets hard but is fairly easy to sand and fairs to feather edge. It will withstand a hot deck and can be used below the waterline.
Won't say I'm in the business of recommending, but the 407 is the ONLY PRODUCT of West System's that I will use.
[MSDS for Malaysian phenoset microspheres admits to trace amounts formaldehybe.] Dust mask.
Last edited by ebb; 03-09-2011 at 11:37 PM.
The following photos follow up on the above scupper discussion.
#1 shows a cast bronze quarter plate for a split back stay. Note that the toe rail gutter is originally and still open at the stern.
# 2 shows the port bronze chain plates. They are tilted to the angle of each shrouds. Fastenings are 1/2" strut bolts.
#3 shows a port scupper. Note that the scupper slants aft. Scuppers are a separate liner that is glued in place.
#4 shows the three scuppers on the port side. The wood rail closes off the top of these openings. Not made for leading rope.
w e l l . . . . . .
What led to such chunky rails was making a wide allowance for the big hole in the top for the 3/8" hex bolt, washer and socket wrench. So while I went with 1 1/2" to cover the molded toerail I thought couldn't chamfer much more than leaving an inch width on top. There's a full inch for the long bolts up front but that inch widens as the rail height gets shorter as it goes toward the stern.
Rails were to be rounded. Allowance for that also widened the top because you don't want to round in way of the bung holes.
Don't know why but when I spied down the newly installed rail from stem to stern
a HUMP appeared in what should have been a deadflat LochNess shot. It wasn't a true monster because the old jack plane only took a few shaves to get it straight.
But then I took to measuring port and starboard sides to get them absolutely the same.
You know, measuring the sides at one foot intervals along the whole tapering rail
The rail is about 4" tall at the bow and about 2" at the transom.
Then I thought a TINY TINY bit of curve in the rail sheer would look sexy.
And it only took a few shaves.
But both sides HAD to be the same.....
So before I woke up they was shaved down to the bronze carriage bolt tops. A half dozen bungs on each side now were reduced to paper-thin disks that wafted out of the holes. Ahh mean STUPID!
So now I've got to put a cap on the rail to cover my excesses.
Already got most of a thin cap rail milled out of IPE which I won't varnish OR oil. Just another damn consequence...
Very well might paint the new toerails
so I won't have them always nagging at me.
#1) The backstay quarter plate is extra long because the transom was going to be dolled up with a fancy log of varnished mahogany.
But I'll forgo that I think because now I can SEE the error of putting any more weight where the hell you don't want it.
Really GOOFED on the rails. It looks to the eye that the rail leans outward.
I thought I switched port and starboard when the rails were straight before mounting.
But it is a problem that becaime more evident as the truncated rails were sprung into place, bolted and tightened up. You don't know how hard it was to bend those suckers.
I could hire a WOODWORKER to pare back the outside of the rail - in place. Straightening up the apparent lean would make the top less wide AND make it easier to fit a narrower cupped caprail. Don't trust myself.
There is also the consideration that the outer surface of the rails are now IN TENSION from springing them and may not like to be shaved. Grain might want to pop loose, dunno. Seen it happen.
Can't afford to hire. And if I put on a IPE rubrail and PAINT the toerail another color besides white.....
the problem will go away! Yeah right!
#3 & #4) Notice in the scupper shots that the toerail wood and the toerail plastic show a higher seam than where the deck to hull seam used to be! About an inch and a half below.
That old seam has disappeared (we hope). At least I don't see it there anymore under the Awlglitz. Note that pricelss sweep only the painter sees on the inside of the scuppers. Like that stuff!
Untreated IPE for the rubrail here.
Everything is bedded with butyl.
Want critque PLEASE. I'm not here with thumbs in my armpits wiggling my fingers.
"Ebb, you take that stoopid rail off the boat. How many pounds you got out there?
Fill in those nasty scupper thingies too... you'd be sailing by now if you didn't mess around with all this dumb sh........"
Last edited by ebb; 06-23-2011 at 11:44 AM.
Nice work Ebb.
How about a long genoa track on top of the toerail? It could go from the shrouds to the transom. Nice for when you are drifting through the doldrums and you're flying everything including your nightshirt.
You might not need to put a cap on the entire length of the toerail. Or how about a bronze striker plate as a cap.
Being able to mount stanchions tubes against the toerail is a big plus.
What about your anchor chocks? Such great choices when you have a toerail.
Ben
Ben, You are absolutely right on about not having to cap the whole length of the rail.
I didn't SEE that until you mentioned it. But niow it's mine!
I screwed up the front third of the rails. so a wooden cap could be applied from the front to the chainplates.
The chain plates cut into the rail. I feel I have to cap that area of the rail but I will wait until the mast is rigged to see where the plates end up.
Might fatten the rail up where the three plates dig in and make up a wider cap to dress it.
So the capping could end there. Aft of that could have T-bar for the gennies.
Need help with that. I've read discussions where choices are mentioned:
Track on the rail.
Track on deck beside the rail.
Track curved.
Track straight.
Track on the deck by the cabin.
Track at a slant pointing at the stemhead.
These tracks will take tremendous loads and have to be in the right place.
It will be a PITA to nut the bolts in the aft part of the boat. Smoke and mirrors.
I've salivated for years at Herreschoff inspired inrail hardware. Especially dapped in mid rail chocks for leading the spring lines. Or skene chocks at the bow and stern.
There's no way around it, I'd have to make models of what I believe is correct for leading lines off the boat. - with the idea of getting them cast. The bronze in-rail chock I've seen has sharp edges.
Catalog skene chocks are completely stupid to me unless the warp is led from directly ahead.
And ofcourse lines at the bow come aboard at all angles. Even Davies chocks (see the catalog at greenboatstuff) and chock/cleats are not correct imco. All this hardware available has hard abrupt edges that will saw through nylon in a blow.
The only bronze skenes I've seen that Litlgull could wear are the ones Tim Lackey has on his Triton 381. Aren't available anymore.
Have to see this stuff from the chaffing gear point of view and the illogical angles that rope comes aboard a boat.
The position of chocks on our rounded transom also presents a potential chaffing problem because of cleat location. Could use skenes here but you'd immediately have 'sharp' edge problems.
Some of the original Pearson cast aluminum cleats (chocks?) have a nice plump character and might be translated to hollow bronze castings with soft corners.... Dreamer.
Last edited by ebb; 03-11-2011 at 09:03 AM.
Man, she's a looker, Ebb. Thank you Bill for adding these pics and thanks Ebb for the explanations. If I remember I milled our mahogany down to 2 3/4" high. It's been a few years ago and I can't say for sure but I know I didn't have the guts to go 4 inches. I probably should have though it looks right to my eye. I was planning on running the lead tracks on top of the rail starting from 14"-18" aft of the midship chocks back 6 feet as that is the length of the tracks I have (again, if I recall correctly
I got six bronze rail chocks years ago in anticipation of finishing her earlier. Yeah, we all know how that is turning out. I'm hoping the rail doesn't 'spring apart' when we start cutting into it to mount the chocks! I got the C232BP's.
Last edited by Tony G; 03-11-2011 at 11:52 AM.
My home has a keel.
Hey Tony,
THERE are those bronzes!
How could you not like that 'mid rail chock/cleat' fitting?
It would schmooze nicely into the new wood rail. On lit'lgull's rail there would even be some wood left UNDER the chock.
Looking at the 'Bronze G Chock' you can't miss the hard edges. Imco this applies to the herreschoff midrail.
I've not taken these but similar skene's and tried them on the transom with a natural lead from deck cleats. I could not find a fair lead through the skenes that imco didn't have chaffing problems.
I got a couple of those Panama Canal chocks from Spartan and tried them on the transom.
(Can't locate them right now in the garage - time to do a complete inventory.)
If I remember they seemed kind of GAWKEY - awkward - even though they'd be useful.*
The fitting is tall for its base. If these were mounted to the curve of our transom and the cleats were in the usual place (in the middle of the space between the locker lid and the toes rail) the lead of the line through the horns would be across two corners of the fitting. The corners are rounded sort of but not enough for me. Could mount the chocks more in line with the cleat but imco that looks wrong and becomes a fastening problem inside the lazarette. I'm still looking for the right fitting. Something more rounded and plump and easy on rope.
The fittings could be altered/rounded with files and burrs.
But then it occured to me that these fittings are tight within the designer's concept and any rounding would possibly weaken it. Had to metally discard them. Even though I really liked that midrail......snif.
We protect rope with chaffing gear. BUT chafe protection imco BEGINS with the chock or cleat.
I got some well rounded stainless chocks at a boatshow once. They kind of leaned and were extreme deco - and you could figure eight a line across the horns like a cleat if you had to.
When I got them to the boat they would barely fit on the transom rail and looked like they had been canabilized off a power boat. Couldn't stomach it.
Hope the rail scupper pix are useful. Don't remember if I took any chop and slop pics of the process. But there must be enuf clues in the verbiage.
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*We've just had that Japan tsumami find its way ACROSS THE PACIFIC into a couple harbors here on the California coast that made the news. Crescent City harbor was mangled pretty bad. Santa Cruz harbor, which is essentially a marina, had a sudden two foot surge that sunk twenty boats damaged hundreds more and tore docking apart. Ariels apparantly OK. (See Discussion page for videos.)
Murphey's law always applies to boats - if it can it will happen.
All lines leading to a boat should be through CLOSED CHOCKS. One wave, One twist, turn, nod of the boat can panama a rope out of an open chock.
Last edited by ebb; 03-12-2011 at 12:25 PM.
Henry Nevins' boat Polly II had these beautiful chock. Cast at the Nevins foundry no doubt.
Owning your own foundry might help. How about having a size appropriate set of these made? They look good on the Formosa 51.
My home has a keel.
That hardware installation looks bollocks to me.
Stating the obvious: would anybody lead line overboard with knife edge like that? Tear the chaffing gear to shreds.
It says alot about the designer, builder, and the idiot who buys it.
Greenboatstuff shows a Davey and Co bronze version of this bollard. Smallest size is 12" and will set you back $578. Not including S&H.
Davey has a beautiful open top horney cleat #1078 -chock/cleat - that comes in four reasonable sizes. Prices start at $33. They also have small well rounded bronze bollards #1126 in four sizes, starting at $47.
Befor you order from greenboatstuff ask if they have it in stock, otherwise it'll be months. It happened to me. The web site takes a little getting used to, also.
I can see these bollards being used at the bow and stern INSTEAD OF SKENE CHOCKS on our boats. Have not actually tried them.
Lines in both locations, depending on the size bollard, would be 'corner to corner' through the bollard.
The bollards posts are round - EXCELLENT! And the base is rounded - EXCELLENT!
Have to allow for line size and chaffing gear.
I haven't got one in my hands, BUT the question arises:
can the bollard be drilled for a clevis pin across the top, or near the top, to capture the line?
Being bronze it may be a reasonable alteration. And the loose pin used only when needed. Like going through the Panama. Or leaving the boat untended.
Could fancy it up with one side of the bollard being threaded and the pin screwed into place. No cotters.
It only takes more time and more money!
Davey & Co. does custom work.....
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________'
Later edit:
Brits being weird Brits, there is nobody in the UK including Davey that gives the dimensions or a dimensional drawing of these bollard/chocks -
except that they are so many inches long and one assumes that refers to the base (rather than the opening between the posts, which it could be) - and the width of the base. One might extrapolate enuf data to make a somewhat acciurate drawing of the fitting. However fine tuning a size to the bow toerail (they'd have to be mounted somewhat inboard imco because of space limitations in the forepeak. The width of the base is an important consideration. The bollards are highly sculptural and making a model would be difficult. Greenboatstuff is no help either, better ask what their return policy is?
Last edited by ebb; 03-13-2011 at 03:05 PM.
Have you seen this chock?
http://www.historicalarts.com/products/show/681
Or this one?
http://www.historicalarts.com/products/show/682
Last edited by Ariel 109; 03-13-2011 at 06:46 PM.
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