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Thread: Outboard Discussions

  1. #241
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA
    Scott, think your 6hp is about right -- right at the limit for weight aft of the rudder.
    Yamaha 110lbs for an 8-4 became ridiculous for me to stomach, Just looked up
    Honda OBs and found a 15 at 104lbs. Maybe you can HP-up to an 8 and keep
    the weight the same with a modern motor $3400.

    I can't deal with petro smells anymore. Kerosene, diesel, gasoline, strong solvents
    like toluene acetone are out. Still grudgingly use naptha for decal/tape removal
    but non-toxics are appearing. And I use a tiny amount to thin 2-part liquid epoxy
    as a first coat sealer. Fossil fuel days are numbered. Expensive high labor lithium
    must be on their way out. They're almost fossils by now, we need an efficient, less
    labor intensive battery that will last for 20 years. Somebody is working on it!
    Last edited by ebb; 03-30-2021 at 10:26 AM.

  2. #242
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA
    Second try here. Abrupt erase again, This time itmwasn'y my computer.

    Bill, you may hve some kind of time limit set up on posting. It takes me

    a l;ongn time to type. You must have a 'clearing' time limit where if a

    certain function doesn't happen, like finishing a post and saving it, the

    window will automatically clear the window.

    I believe this is a sign from a superior force. To hell with it..

  3. #243
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Orinda, California
    Ebb, we have no time-outs, so it's probably your local network again.

  4. #244
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA
    Tech was just here, says it's all my fault. (Refer Above)

    Electric OB motors. Anybody REALLY interested?? I want and need lithium

    batteries, instead of lead/acid.. Anybody tell you that Torqeedo batteries are

    LiNMC, lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt. Same type that Tesla uses. And I

    have just been made aware of this. [see Yachting World,October 2020,

    "Lithium boat batteries: Why now is the right time to upgrade your electrics"]

    So while I never understood why Torqeedo couldn't produce a descent

    electric OB for a 26' sailboat, they were in the forefront as far as batteries.

    Tesla batteries have to be replaced after 125,000 miles. Obviously innovation

    will occur in this industry, in fact the word is: 3 companies are working on a

    battery good for a million miles!! (YachtingWorld).

    After I sold the Yamaha 8-4, grudgingly went with T's peeked Cruise4. Never

    committed. Then one day found epropulsion. They had only 3 electric OBs.

    One called Navy 6.0 with a 9.9HP rating. It had the motor under the cowl up

    top. Not in the water with the prop like Torqeedo. Researched. They seemed

    to have covered everything and done everything right. The OB looked great.

    Contacted the seller, study their website and the Manual. A little time goes by.

    I get on an obvious more current page, and I'm looking at a Torqeedo.

    But it isn't. It's the new Navy 6.0 2021 model. with a bulbous swelling in front

    of the propeller. So I call up the guy and he says, "Oh, that's the new model for

    2021", like I shoulduv known. So now we have two electric motors that can be

    minutely compared. It is as if epropulsion has consciously designed the outboard

    that Toqeedo forgot. (Who thot this was a niche market? And there is a huge

    wad of money needed for redesigning, reengineering, recasting a new Navy6.0 )

    The whole OB is bigger, not built on the troller Cruise frame. While it looks similar,

    2021 Navy 6.0. looks, at least from this computer, more like a real OB. I think it

    weighs in 65lb, almost like a 2stroke. But there is something very different:

    Torqeedo has spent their R&D time developing a DEEPBLUE line of batteries for

    their speed boat platform. BMW has a small Euro electric vehicle whose battery, I

    believe was developed by Torqeedo. Could say the crossover is old news. We're

    still on the way of a truly useful, less price punishing, battery for the sailboat crowd.

    When we look at a marina, hardly anybody is sailing. Every boat has a fossil-fuel

    engine, their day is overdue for an electric makeover.. Batteries haven't quite

    caught up yet. I want one for my 2003 Honda Element!!!

    Stop for now. If you're interested at all in electric OBs and lithium bats, the Yachting

    World article is a good read!
    Last edited by ebb; 01-06-2021 at 01:52 PM.

  5. #245
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Winyah Bay, SC
    Within the past month or two I saw some reference (seems like it was an Ariel related place...?) to a motor like the Honda/saildrive-enstein, but it was made back in the late 60's/early 70's, used an Evinrude 2 stroke on the top end. Sailing Uma on YouTube have fitted an electric motor with a saildrive type unit, it was/is manufactured that way - and I imagine more pricey than even a well-kitted Ariel without one would be.
    I'm selling my Merc 6hp 4strk to a fellow who needs to get a Catalina 30 down to Florida. A friend was given for free a Yamaha 4hp 4strk longshaft earlier this year; he in turn gave it to me. Great friend! (Note to self: get him a good Xmas present...) It's an older model, he was told it had been barely used. When I went to service it the oil was still golden in color, so I think it has been run less than an hour. I'm gonna give it a break-in treatment, and it'll become Katie's aux. The 6hp worked fine up until 20+ kts wind, I think the 4hp will work for someone like me who likes the idea of motorlessness but it too chicken****e to actually go that way. And the long-term dependability of Yamahas in saltwater environs is not a factor to be overlooked.
    One note on the Yam 4's - of all the years they were made, it seems, there were but 2 years when a carb swap could turn them into a 6hp motor.
    Mine is one of those two years, that's the only 'bad' thing about it.
    Kurt - Ariel #422 Katie Marie
    Small boats, long distances...

  6. #246
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA

    selling and buying is a major activity on the net.
    ARE REPRESENTED on the net and by their vendors.

    Now, I've read that epropulsion is the invention of two HongKong University
    I don't know what their mission statement is. There seems to be a Torqeedo
    connection, and a we can do it better attitude. These small electric outboards
    are in a class by themselves. And I'm surprised that there is a competitor out
    there that believes there's money to be made in this tight niche market. As I've
    said, it's remarkable that an OB already established will suddenly unannounced
    completely revamp their main product, the Navy 6.0. The reason was: to make
    a better product, to improve not cheapen it. I mean, what else?

    The older model had a right angle gear 'box' just before the prop that may have
    been a problem -- because that is what they changed by putting the motor in
    front of the prop. (like Torqeedo has always had it.)
    But with a more versatile and powerful motor, that can both push an 'up to six
    ton(!)' sailboat and plane an airboat. Conceptually superior, we are led to believe.
    epropulsion makes three electric OBs: a 1.0 (Spirit)3hp - a 3.0 6hp - 6.0 9.9hp.
    Navy.. Which they developed first.

    The internet sites are sticky, unresponsive, hypish and almost useless. While
    some thumbnails of the OB show the new Navy 6.0, last year's is prominent.

    Torqeedo and Elco show up uninvited, but the only actual vendor: RJ Nautical
    is all over the place. The 'other' vendor (FourSeas) is nowhere to be found, is
    it because they aren't in the payola deal with google? No, it's just that they all
    seem to use the same incompetent epropulsion feed. The problem is they all
    repeat the same epropulsion hype, so user unfriendly it's more like an enigma.

    No one's corrected it since I've been around, and my brief association with sales
    at FourSeas has been disappointing. No one seems to care that the web presence
    of epropulsion is totally useless, negative and unavailable, download is blocked.
    WHY the hell why? You would think this would rub off on the product. The shine
    is gone for me. Have not found a credible home address to write or phone.

    [ Years ago now, I looked into Elco's line of electric OBs. Looked promising. Called
    sales and the guy could not go into depth about the OBs, it was like he was
    reading from notes. Then I looked at their design. I had already discovered
    Parsun OBs, They are Chinese and make every kind of OB including electric, every
    fishing boat in the orient is powered by Parsun. On the face of it, we'd think the
    motors were foolproof and reliable. AND indeed, that's what Elco was selling, on
    the blind face of it, as their own. PARSUN has no viable USA vendor, At that time.. ..
    The point is, if you are going to flog your product in the US, you better iron out
    all the kinks that turn customers off. Including untrained uninformed unenthusiastic
    vendors. Incomplete specs, missing diagrams, nodownload copyrighted websites. ]

    They have an accessible 50page Manual to study. An electric motor has no hoses,
    exhaust, smell, oil, gasoline -- but an electric OB has a finicky and hugely expensive
    dedicated battery system that has many must do's, should do's, don't do's and hoo
    doo's required to keep the system happy in a salt environment.
    Can't find anybody who has cruised with a Navy 6.0.* Epropulsion is 8 years old.
    It should be further along with a kind of marketing friendliness that would reduce
    meaningless hype and add transparency and owner or 3rd party detail, like a mag
    article, or literate YouTube.
    [*nor, for that matter, are there reports of anysailor using a Torqeedo Cruise 4 as
    an auxiliary for cruising..]

    Advertised as quiet, visited a YouTube farm, where one guy wound-up his Navy6.0
    to a definite loud whine. An unpleasant mechanical noise I wouldn't like at a lower
    rpms either.. something that needs hearing before buying. Prop noise has to be
    louder than motor noise. And near silent when required.
    Last edited by ebb; 01-06-2021 at 02:19 PM. Reason: No, it appars

  7. #247
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA
    Epropulsion has surfaced (Four Winds, vendor) with the new Navy 6 (9.9hp) motor
    in the water. It's a large utilitarian sausage that propels a 11-12" prop. This
    vendor has made it possible to download some paper on the accessories. But
    There is as yet no Manual for the installation. And the manageable Navy batteries
    matched to the Navy 3-6.0 outboards have mysteriously been dropped. Replaced
    with standard batteries that range in weight 63lbs-100+lbs-&180lbs! No choice
    on the Ariel and the ancient mariner: 60+lbs I can hardly manage and I think
    I'm going to need at least 8 of them ($2,000ea) in parallel to power the motor.
    The bats are LiPo type, not the newer tesla nickel type. And are packaged in metal
    cases rather than plastic, making them heavy.

    My problem is ignorance about this electric OB phenomenon, and dealing with a
    vendor who has no experience (so far as I am aware) with cruising sailors.
    My live contacts are old fossils hooked on fossil fuels, except for one notable Triton
    owner who has moved his boat to the Seattle area while he finishes business here,
    and his electric motor is inboard.

    My feeling is that epropulsion is unable to finesse their American market. One assumes
    they must be interested in owning the 10hp niche category they seem to be aimed at.
    Somehow we have to trust their expertise in manufacturing electric outboard motors*
    and excuse their inability to present their products to the US market. At least the
    appearance of transparency has to be present. Into the third month of 2021 without a
    companion Manual for the Navy 6.0 is pretty miserable. Something tells me the motor
    is a good deal, but the batteries are problematic, and the presentation sucks!

    {*They are a new company (8years by now) bourn by a couple young men at Hong
    Kong University -- so what's to trust?}
    Last edited by ebb; 03-09-2021 at 12:20 PM.

  8. #248
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA

    It's Monday. Thursday it's April Fools.
    This thing with ePropulsion (sic) is a bit fishy. And I am too concentrated on the smell.

    I have found that ePro has offices all over the world. They make it sound like they have
    vendors all over the states. I have found two here on the Westcoast, with a main distributer
    in NewJersey. Sent them an email asking specifically for a 2021 Navy 6.0 Manual. They
    sent back a link for the 2020 manual.. {When you download, it first prints the complete
    manual in German. Then the manual in Chinese. Then the 28pages in English. I did it
    last year. Nobody is going cruising with an electric outboard..

    The three websites just mentioned still feature pictures and descriptions of their first made
    Navy (so called) outboards. But they are last year's models. ePro's smaller (Spirit so called)
    motors occupy YouTube. So why bother?

    The 2020 Navy 6.0 (9.9hp) was paired with a Navy battery (23.4"x8.23"x11.15"). It has
    been totally expurgated from all the literature as if the battery never existed. It rated
    3042Wh and they got like $2,000 for it. I thought 4 of these (12168Wh) would be adequate.
    The new 2021 motor, direct drive in the water, with hydrogeneration (dragging the unit with
    motor off prop out of gear? to push energy back into the bats). With an almost ten year
    history on the concept and now completely revampt and housed in saltwater proof IP67
    security.. seemed pretty cool. Motor, direct drive, in the water doesn't need elaborate
    shaft cooling like the 2020 Navy 6.0 did with the motor up top under the cowl.

    The all important battery comes in 3 weights, the lightest is about 63lbs - cost 1,000 dollars.
    It's lithium iron phosphate, relatively safe. Power rated at 2048Wh (E40) 48v. I'd need 6
    to match the original Navy bats, thinking 12,000Wh was correct cruise backup for the motor.

    But there is a rub. The E40 battery comes in a neat stainless steel package: 7.48"Hx16.48"W
    x15.35 Deep. The fittings/connections, plug-ins, read-outs, wire connects are all on the
    short side, which also has two 'handles' that sort-of double as protectionators. These bats
    come with rubber foam mats top and bottom on the square sides.

    Last day of March 2021. Just erased a whole bunch of vitriol.
    Because I was just assured by FourSeas that the E batteries (and in my case the E40 can be
    orientated anyway I choose. I've already complained about the bats cassette player case
    style that has the controls on a short side. If I want to have the controls pointing UP (like
    an AGM - or any battery since the dawn of the automobile) then it'd need 15 or 16" to stand
    on its short side/end.. If they were grouped together, wiring parallel be easy -- don't know
    if I have the locker room. We'll see..

    4Seas also advised that I need at least 3 E40s to run the Navy 6.0.
    Don't know what to expect handling the boat. Whether more backup runtime necessary,
    necessary in terms of comfort level. How well regeneration works. How well the SunPower
    panels work.
    Last edited by ebb; 03-31-2021 at 11:09 AM.

  9. #249
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA
    Got an email from MarkBoring in NewJersey , said to be the 'distributor' for ePropulsion
    in the States, to expect the 2021 Navy 6.0..

    and the Manual for this all new electric outboard..


    No wonder the odd silences. They don't have the 2021 models in the States yet.

    (next post wants to print smaller than 100)
    Last edited by ebb; 05-06-2021 at 12:37 PM.

  10. #250
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    San Rafael, CA

    Navy 6.0 Evo

    epropulsion Navy 6.o Evo. is what they call the 2021 version of their
    most powerful electric outboard. A few notes.

    Looked thru the in-the-water Manual, which is not quite up to date*.
    Perhaps there is another coming. I want a hard copy, not available.
    Down loading 55 single sheet pages doesn't do it for me. I want an
    actual Manual. Assume one comes with the motor in the box!
    *New downloadable Manual talks about coolant for the shaft and
    gear oil -- believe these are no longer necessary.

    There is a lot of careful stuff to learn about the electrics. If learning
    curves are bell-shaped, mine has a crack in it.

    The Ariel motorwell clamp is about 17-18" from the water surface.
    The 30" Navy 6.0L Evo when hung on the clamp-board will put the
    top of the 13"D prop 5-6" under, which is about right for the motor
    to run and prop not to cavitate. But the Ariel squats, crew aboard or
    cruising trim will alter things. I installed a jackplate that can
    electrically lower the motor -- but I'm going to remove it, added
    weight. And it's a thing.

    Here's a new rub: When we first were asking what the OB motor
    weight was it was around 65lbs for the Navy 6.0, or so I thought.
    Now it turns out the weight of the motor alone, not including the
    tiller or steering module is 81 pounds. I've triple checked it! That's
    more than I can move around..
    This means, of course, once the 6.0 Evo is installed it's not going
    to move -- except to tilt.

    Three E40 batteries, the minimum to run the motor, weigh 186lbs..and
    it would be smart to have 4 bats hooked into the motor, that's 247lbs
    Cases are 16.5 x 8.2 x 15.4. (Can be stacked on any side.. the face
    side with controls is the 16.5 x 8.2.) Never planned for any battery
    stowage to be 15.4 plus wires tall.
    NO, the batteries cannot be STACKED, because heat generated wld
    be a problem. They can only take 122 degrees F. Which is ridiculous.

    3249 for the motor. But the Evo tiller is about 300 extra, and is not
    included in the whole weight of the motor
    so is the charger, cables, and batteries at $1000 each. Not to mention
    the solar panels. etc. It's almost rediculus the weight & expense to be
    fossil free.
    Going 'global' certainly expensive. There's still Top and Bottom paint
    to green-up, no solvents aboard ship. We have natural varnish in
    LeTonkinois, but I'm going to paint most of it over in grey & white.
    Because the luscious ease of Tonk is erased by the varnish having no
    lasting power in the California sun. I can't deal with that.

    We have a lot more electric oranges than gas apples, in comparison.
    So we have a lot more weight aboard, and a lot more money, and a
    lot more to get comfortable with. Getting rid of the petroleum presence
    that's the beauty. No longer having that 110lb Yamaha 8-4stroke is
    more about the smell than climate change, that IS what it is about.
    And the weight. But look at this 81+lb Navy Evo!! What? 25lbs of
    copper windings in that sausage? A lot to chew. If we weren't
    fossilizing the planet, that loud smoky monster looking purdy good..

    AND light-weight lithium bats in heavy stainless steel cases. Bit Nutz.
    If I cld find the space for 4 E40 batteries, that if stacked on edge the
    4 of them is like having a 250lb football crewman aboard in weight
    and mass. And I just heard, the motors won't arrive until August.

    Hope the once young and restless university student engineers have
    all their ducks in order. Have all my OOPS to deal with, don't want
    epropulsion OOPSES all asudden coagulating on a strange lee shore..
    OK, you nonagenarians ATTEN HUT!

    ePropulsion Hype admits that the Navy 6.0 (the first motor the Hong
    Kong University student engineers developed -- but now totally different)
    is the backbone of their company -- NOW it's more looking like an
    over-engineered Frankenstein monster. In no way does it compare
    with the 4-stroke 8HP gas motor I impetuously sold away on craigslist.
    I may be forced back into the dark ages of carbon footprints.
    Last edited by ebb; 06-20-2021 at 03:10 PM.

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