This thread is dedicated to photos of Ebb's refurbishing of Ariel #338.
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This thread is dedicated to photos of Ebb's refurbishing of Ariel #338.
The first photo is of Ebb's garage. Note the conveniently placed tow vehicle near the door :)
Inside the garage . . .
Here is the replacement straongback as seen from the main cabin.
Another view of the sb construction:
Another of the SB
Last SB photo
Oops, forgot the support photo . . .
Reinforcing under foredeck
New knee for the forward chainplate. Note the old Pearson tab inside the new structure.
Looking aft at the starboard cockpti locker from the main cabin. Black pipe is new cockpit drain.
The cockpit drains exit through the new holes each side of the ob well.
This is a "shelf" built under the forepeak bunk (gone). Custom water tanks are planned for port and stbd.
Well, that was the first of the series. Stay tuned. In about a month we will have more photos. If you have questions, please ask Ebb. All of this is way out of my area of expertise. :p
Holy Moley!
Ebb you have been busy. That is going to be one stiff boat.
Very nice workmanship.
Let me know if you need some new chainplate bolts. I have some extra silicone bronze screws, nuts and washers. The screws are a half inch longer than the original ones.
C'Pete, how about these shots of Bill's. Modifications on a molecular level? G a w d I feel exposed!
I am fully open to criticism, advice and hate email, points of order, rants and opinions.
Get back to you on the bronze. Naturally I've upscaled the plates to 1/4 and fattened up the knees. They aren't glassed yet either.
Thanks.
Ebb, that's gonna be one tough boat.
If you run into a whale out there, you'll have to drag the dead carcass home and sell it to a Japanese restaurant.
WOW!!! A busy guy. Enjoyed the show. Looking forward to Part 2 of "Ebb's Modifications on a Molecular Level."
You guys have now sufficiently motivated / shamed me into a much more extensive houlout than planned.
I don't know whether to thank you or to curse you all....
Ebb!
Are you crazy? You'll shoot your eye out!
Seriously though, that's substantial AND fine looking work you've done on 338. I too, will be waiting for part two and am comforted in the fact that the road before has been paved for me( with your sweat and effort:D ) I'm glad I just 'dumped'a lot of photos from memory the other day 'cause now I can fill it back up with these.
Ebb,
I'm jealous , wanted to do a radical interior like yours , but not with the boat in the water and dont have the right real estate for storage .
I'm drinking a Beamish stout to #338 !
Ebb
What material did you use for your stringers you added up front? Is that just kerf cut wood? How 'bout them tunnels under your cockpit? You're planning on removing alot of water! Better prepared than sunk. Those are pretty clean through hulls under the quarter, is it all FRP? It kind of looks like PVC. Does the galley sink tie into the cockpit drain or are you going sans sink in lieu of take out? Hey while I'm rambling on the subject how big of cockpit scuppers did you add? Won't sleep 'till I know...
By the way Bill, Thanks for the fun and I hope you were properly compensated for your efforts :D
Tony sir, shoot my eye out? Must be my daughter's generation. Shoot my wad, that I can do. This is a very expensive proposition that only the wise and the lucky should attempt. Otherwise you're like me: you just shoot first and pay the consequences later.
Rambling on:
The stringers now run continuous from stem to lazarette. In the fo'csl they taper to the stem. It's just kerfcut Alaskan yellow cedar (from decking material.) I copied Pearson's spwcs: 1 1/2" X 1 1/2", 3/4" rounded. Pearson's are mahogany. 338's are not a fair run main cabin to the forward compartment. Which for some reason annoys the hell outa me. Because I couldn't fix it.
The tunnels are epoxy frp gas pipe, it's about 2 3/16" ID. Pricey, Very strong and stiff. It's the forward drains that required the long run under the cockpit. That plywood Portageese strongback is gonna GO!
The pipe uses wierd cast epoxy 90s - T.s - and 45s. The T-leg is cut short and tight to the cokpit bottom to bring the run up as high as I could get it to get a decent drop. Exits above the waterline. (where's the waterline?) I put T's there into the cabin rather than 90s for cleanouts (othjerwise the run would be blind) and to maybe add a sink drain to one. The sink would have to be two inches deep. There are 45s at the transom exit to help keep backflow minimum. No flappers maybe.
I want to put scuppers in the rear too. There are many issues to be dealt with in this area. But they'll probably be straight thrus like the rudder tube.
Galley sink is another kettle of fish. If the refit ends up a bachelor pod, the bachelor then could lift one of the two buckets (IE double sink) and dump it down a special funnel in the cockpit scupper. Hell, this b. is tall enough to wash his bowl and spoon leaning over the bridgedeck from inside, almost.
The plan is to waterproof the cockpit lockers. And it's hard not to think about putting in propane lockers in the afterend. I'ld like to kick this one around with the captains courageous here.
cheers Mike, et al, soon as the jaberwoky whistles I'll hoist a Beamish Stout with the crew.
hey ebb, i was wondering what your final plan is for plumbing, etc.
where/how much are your custom water tanks?
where is your holding tank going?
my current water tank is the original gavanized or common steel (can't tell which) and has rusted to oblivion.
and the holding tank was a 15-year old- .00005 mL capacity plastic bladder. originally sold as the (not kidding here) "Poo-Loo System" when i pulled on the handle to check the condition, the handle pulled out of the ultra thin plastic walls. so i am now totally out of USCG plumbing code. (good thing i am also totally out of the water...)
anyway, let us know your longterm plumbing plans (especially in-boat arragements and sources)
-km #3
Capt. km#3. I had a monel tank up there in the Vee. I took it out per the tips in the Manual and recycled it. This is now where the chain locker is being constructed in 338.
So I moved the watertank(s) to both sides of the remaining V-berth. Laborously made two 1/4" luan ply models in the spaces (including barrelstaving the side along the hull.) Instead of a triangular section tank I glassed in a narrow foot for the tanks to rest on. So the tanks are sort of 4 sided. Plus ends.
(I figured the tanks to be about 20 gals each. That 300 pounds. a considerable weight up forward. That's bulkhead to blkhd under the original plywood berth tops.))
I then set about trying to find someone to make the damn things in polyethylene or polypropolene. Made up kits of photos and measurements and places for fittings. Not one single return. These custom guys who hot air weld the plastic can only think in right angles. The curved side of the tank, I think,must have insulted them.
I'm going to have to use the models for forms myself to make them out of vinylester and glass. This is probably not a problem, but I understand is very labor intensive - I can use the time elsewhere on the refit. One can still get tanks made from monel. At $600 a pop for the poly I got on one quote that didn't pan out I may ask a welding shop how many thousands a monel one goes for. Stainless is not currently a choice because of rust at the welds. But I will research that. It's also added weight. A glass one will no doubt weigh more than a metal one.
I really don't lnow as I haven't made any tanks befor. It just seemed easier to pay thru the nose for a hand crafted one than do it myself.
I thought the holding tank could go up forward if and when I get to it but don't know for sure. I'm putting in a new watertight bulkhead right where the watertank and the sanipooper used to be. The Theteford head will be right there where it has to be between the V-berths untill I upscale down the line. :rolleyes:
Yes, and I'm going to have to be monitered real close here by you guys when I do get to the plumbing and electrics!
Ok, time to get back to the original thread. Although the olive harvest and wine crush were getting in the way, Ebb did make some progress in the past couple of months.
First there is the (very) modified outboard engine layout in the lazarette. Check this out . . .
Hmm. Thought I had figured out how to
reduce the photo size, but I guess not.
Need to proceed, so please be patient
with these oversized pics.
Next, we have three views of the chain locker progress:
No 1 is taken from outside the forecabin
No 2 is looking threw the new bulkhead
Chainlocker number 3 is looking into the locker
And, one more pic. This is a real work of art.
There you are, photo exhibits of Ebb's progress.
Ebb will now answer your questions about the ob well modifications.
Bil, Appreciate the photos but you need to get them under control! Here's my method:
1. Drag the photo into Paint. (If you have Windows, you should have Paint in your programs.) It is found under "Accessories" in Programs. I put "Paint" on my desktop so I can easily drag the photo into it.
2. Once the photo is opened up in Paint, go to Image.
then select "Stretch". Then downsize, "50" works well in the horizontal and vertical boxes.
3. Then save it wherever.
Its a rather lengthy process that I detest, however it works. If there is an easier way, which I can't believe there isn't in this day and age of computer advances, somebody PLEASE let me know.
Now for that busy busy guy, Ebb, what is the purpose for the half circles in the chain locker, and what is that beautiful work of art shown in the last photo?
And Happy holidays to you all. I'm heading up North hopefully for a white New England Christmas.
:cool:
now that you have that chain locker (a) where is your head going to be installed and (b) what are you going to do with the volume forward of the chainlocker?
what is the story with the OB well? is it an attempt to seal it off from the bilge and let the water drain from the well all by itself? or is it designed to ship the water into the cockpit so those drains can take care of it?
i really like the half circles in the vertical supports on the chain locker. are they there so you have access to tab/glass/glue/affix the small "shelves"?
but really beautiful work there, even if it doesn't all fit on my screen at once. :p
out
km#3
Ok kids,
You'll notice first that the ledge over the cutouts is what remains of the original Vberth after excising the bow tank per the Manual's instructions.
The pieces with the cut outs are verticals that match the fore and aft bulkheads.
The idea is to have two poly boxes (troughs) made that would have a lip that would go over the ledge and be cinched down with permanent bolts coming up thru the ledge. Two bookmatched boxes separated foreandaft down the middle. The bolts would be long enuf to drop on lids that would be held down with wing nuts. To keep chain in place when the boat is "inverted."
These half circle openings are for access to insert the bolts up thru the holes and hold the heads to tighten.
After all ten bolts are jam nutted, the locker is to be Xmatted with epoxy, Four sides of the locker and the bottom. The holes will be spanned with the mat. hopefully creating a waterproof interior. It may need another layer of cloth to be sure. Then the poly boxes are to be made (but I'm still upset that no custom poly tank maker could be found willing or capable of making the new side watertanks.) So I think plywood will be a good alternative. And it's more replaceable down the line. The boxes are fastened in place with their own set of nuts. The lid goes on over with its own wingnuts. All on the same bolts.
The chainlocker and forepeak are in the 'crash bulkhead' watertight area so drainlines from each will be piped down the bilge to the sump. Screw-on caps or valves for control. One could hose out the forward lockers and pump it out from the sump under the companionway ladder.
Conceivably, the cloth and epoxy over the unfilled hole will allow cutting out to replace a mangled bolt. Afterall this is the chain and anchor locker. Just paste a piece of cloth and resin back over the hole. The holes in the bottom of the chainlocker can also be cut out if a major repair is necessary to the hull from inside.
Between the pvc pipes at the bottom of the new bulkhead in one of Bill's posters you'll notice a faint circle where the sonar thru-hull comes in. The sensor is molded into the cutwater edge of the stem. The actual sensor is not mounted yet. You may notice there is limited access under the chain locker here as well. This is where the bow tank supply was, the hole has been cut larger.
The portapotti will be mounted on a new removable platform there in the Vee. I really like the concept of a composting toilet. Airhead is the obvious candidate because of its size (smaller than Sunmar) but it is way taller than the Thetaphart. Like the idea that if you are forced by the unenlightened to cargo yer effluent around you might as well compost it. Does require constant elecricity. P.S. has a recent evaluation.
Ok, we have figured out how to
reduce the photo size, but in the process, this pic got deleted and so had to be re posted here. Sorry about that. This is the first photo of the chain locker progress and was taken from just outside the forecabin.
(thanks, Bill, for the much easier ride down this thread!)
Problem: Get an 8h Yamaha 4 stroke electric tilt to be happy in an antigue Ariel motor well.
Problem: No way to get the motor's muscular multipurpose arm operational unless strate-up vertical with the added ignominy of the rather large hatch open and clipped to the backstay.
Problem: Yamaha's muscular clamp drags in the water when mounted on original clamping board. [chorus, 'Get a Nissan 6, weighs only 20#!']
Solution: Cut the blinking offending cross bridge away and raise the motor 4". No brainer. [chorus, 'Didn't take any brains to make That change.']
A block and tackle end-of-boom mainsheet (no travelor) could conceivably still be mounted there. But a mid-boom (actually aft of mid-boom) sheet on the dodger frame over the companionway makes mucho better sense IMCO. I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out. [Chorus: hi-ho any engineers amongst us?]
Of course I don't believe that 100%. SO. You can surmise from Bill's photo that the cockpit well is not connected to the bulkhead. While there still is access we can get in from the cabin thru the side lazarettes, the cockpit will be heavily tabbed to the bulkhead and the bulkhead tabbed to the hull (missing in 338 under the cockpit.)
The white stuff in the photo is cardboard and doorskin. the ply clamp board is temporary. Playing with the space you can see what happens when you raise the 'gascan' deck up to the top of the original well. Looks to me we got at least an 8gal space each side (all the foam, everything's gone in the laz execept the well collar, so it's not hard to see.) Think: built in vinylester gas tank, bladder with access plate, foam positive flotation, or plain stowage - I opt for glassed in tanks. Who's going to insure this boat, anyway? OK, this gascan deck is the major element in the integrity of the well and the whole rear end of the Ariel. Distributes the vibration and loads of the motor thruout the stern. This could be the arguement FOR solid foam-in-place. What we took out was 3/8s fir ply with 1/4" laminate over. (remember, even that, all that polyester didn't keep water from entering the foam underneath.)
Just raising the clampboard 4 inches seems to create a possibility that the arc of the motor may have more or less the same radius as it is tilted in relation to the rise of the stern and the transom. So if the same portion of the shaft protrudes from the boat a solution to the backwash problem might be a simple overlapping rubber gland to protect the opening yet let the motor slip up and down. Certainly the slot in the transom might be treated this way Like a backflow flap on a thru-hull. Then again, it may all be rubber duck's breath.
you asked...
"I can see no structural compromise to the boat with the bridge taken out.[Chorus: hi-ho any engineers amongst us?]"
actually, there are two parts to this story:
1) the bridge was under a bending moment because of the forces on the mainsheet. it performed the function of keeping the two parts closer to horizontal. and really, the vertical parts ofteh bridge are the work-horses here, just like in a steel I-beam. without it you will see much more flexure of the two posts, upward, and the most severe flexure will happen when one of the two sheet-halves is exactly vertical from the deck (when the boom is right over the post) the degree of flexure, i don't know, i could run a few calcs if the moment strikes me and if "Marks handbook" has values for shear strength of fiberglass.
2) the bridge was in compression. the two halves of the mainsheet angle toward each other and that component of the forces puts the bridge in compression. this means that the posts will have much greater flexture toward each other (in addition to the upward motion). this is greatest when the main is between the two posts, but is always evident regardless of boom position.
some back-of the envelope calcs will some reduction in ultimate strength and increase in flexture, but really some Finite element analysis will show how much the surrounding structure supports the posts. attached is an image that i might use as my b.o.t.e. calcs.
Ariel is essentially a monocogue, ie it is the skin that carries the forces put upon it.
If you mounted blocks on either side of the opening where the 'bridge' was and pull up or sideways on them the stress is taken up instantaneously by a multitude of points strengthened by the curves and stiffened by the turns in the surface of the craft.
The force could be so great on one point it might tear out a chunk - but the essential shape can't change. Of course there could be sheer forces that might delaminate the skin.
Bulkheads keep the boat from twisting. Bamboo is an example of this construction. We have a matching set of longitudinal stiffners to insure against oilcanning - or shape changing, which really would compromise the structure. The more bulkheads, the better they are tabbed in, the less twist and canning. (I will bet that the sweet rounded form of the hull and it's thickness has never oil-canned in anybody's experience?)
The problem of the missing bridge may be that there is not enuf bulkhead there to totally stabilize the aft end of our peapod. Suppose we think of it as just an extra long cockpit. Now that the bridge is down.
That's why lifting the 'gascan' deck to make a horizontal bulkhead might help. Ribbing or flanges going up to the deck on the sides of the tilting slot may add some immobility. Altering that signature great-hatch by reconfiguring the deck back there - making it wider with a smaller hatch - keeping the look and sculpture, but only raise a center portion.
The cockpit well is not connected to the companionway bulkhead or the aft bulkhead. It's just hanging in there - part of the deck mold. I'm convinced that the cockpit must be majorly married to the lazarette bulkhead. This ought to create solid bracing and stiffness for the new open and much longer than the Commander's cockpit. It's redundant strength, and over-building and weight, paranoia, etc - because IMCO the shape won't change. Have to keep it from twisting.
Squeezed between two freighters? Sure. On a coral reef in a typoon... the boat's a sugar cube
well, that's what I feel. You'ld have to perform actual tests on the boat to produce engineering data, wouldn't you, Capt Mrgnstn.....?
Another visit to the Borregaard Yacht Works in San Rafael. This time, we will be looking at the progress on some of Ebb's more interesting modifications. Beginning with the outboard motor well:
View #2 of the ob well:
And the view from the outside:
Then there is the "new" foredeck hatch. Actually, it's to access the anchor chain from the chain locker:
Another view of the foredeck hatch:
Third & final . . .
Let's go inside and take a look at the new chain locker:
And the well in the chainlocker:
And the drains leading from the chainlocker:
Finally, Ebb did a handsome job of glassing the tubes that pass through the cockpit sole to the hull (rudder shaft and two aft cockpit drains).
Well-I guess they all just accept it from you by now! But I've got some questions...when are you coming to MN next?:D When I peeled open the lazarette I was disapointed. Lots of unsaturated glass, huge gaps between the plywood and glass laminates, no where near as structural as I expected, etc., etc.. I am begining to believe Pearson never imagined these boats would last this long and therefore did marginal work. Or did I just get a lemon?
In the first new photo...You've beefed up(read added) the bulkhead between the lazarette and the c-pit. Is that new bulkhead sistered to the factory sort-of one allready there or is it new construction all the way? On 113 that partial filler plywood piece that spans the area from the hull curvature upwards to a horizontal plane about even with the c-pit floor is canted aft big time. I wouldn't be able to sister a plywood bulkhead to it from top to bottom. So I'm wondering if 338 had just as lousy glass work back there and you replaced it or if you had something more substantial and even to begin with. In your earlier posts you stressed the need for strength in that area because of the c-pit reconfiguration and from what I've seen that would mean rebuild.
Up front
Is that a solid epoxy riser in the shape of the foredeck hatch frame or am I seeing things(again)? If it is, how did you get that shape so well? Surely wasn't tooled! Molded insitu?
Down below
In photo #9 I can follow the drain pipes coming from the Pearson anchor chain locker okay but to the right and running mostly vertical there is a slightly curved pipe peeking through the cut-out where the old water tank effluent would have been. Is that more drainage? From the Ebb chain locker perhaps I thought but no, you're having some poly tubs made for rode storage and it couldn't serve them because they are not there in the photo. What the devil is that!!
Photo # 10
Ester, would you look at the pipes on that fella! Are 338's new c-pit drains more of the frp gas pipe used for the forward scuppers? Nice work but here I'm more interested in technique. Do you lower your epoxy and glass, tools etc. down one c-pit hatch then climb in the other and work or did you have help? Devine intervention?
Looks real good, Ebb. Your work on 338 keeps me inspired and motivated way over here in the frozen north. We won't be doing anything as 'radical' as you but then we're just blowin' around some pot holes and you're gonna plant yer toes in some warm foreign sand. Tony G
Something here. I'm rilly glad yer innerested on this remod. I do want feedback, I do want to be called on stuff. I don't want to screw up a gorgeous Alberg design. Sometimes I think the way I express my views is confusing and annoying. Even to myself. Need all the help I can get.
Capt. Tony'
Your aft bulkhead sounds like it deserves a photo here. The bulkhead is a single piece of 3/4 ply. There just might be an extra piece put in as a filler that got dislodged. There is a filler in the OB access hole, around the inside, which allowed mat to be drapped around more easyly when they were finishing the hole. But it is no bigger than the end of the cockpit. It's just filler. The space must have been thought necessary to make it easier to mate the deck/cockpit molding with the hull when assembling the boat. They allowed themselves Plenty of room.
338's sounds somewhat like yours, but I have since found that it is at right angles to the center line, meaning that it was put in square and vertical. However when the farmers put it in they cut it much too small so there was huge gaps on the edges that were indeed stuffed with unsaturated mat and roving. I tore out everything that was loose, cleaned out the holes, filled them with pints of mishmash, radiused the corners and reglassed the bulkhead with x-mat & epoxy and tabbed it to the hull.
Having no engine below, having removed the icebox which in 338 had a large hole cut in the companionway blkhd, I cut a simular hole in the port side. Tho with the seacocks and hose removed from the aft cockpit drains I discovered it was very easy to haul oneself under the c'pit and into the locker areas with the pegboard discarded - to get to the inside of the lazarette bulkhead.
After the blkhd was faired and glassed on both sides, the space between the back of the c'pit well and the blkhd was furred-out and filled and glassed to the blkhd. Did the same at the other end. Thus marrying the cockpit footwell to the bulkheads,
There are stress cracks where the rudder tube comes into the c'pit floor, where Pearson had put very little reinforcement on the underside of the deck. (More may have been a bad idea,) If I wanted to put in 'straight-thru' drains (just like the rudder tube) I felt I had to immobilized whatever possible, to the greatest extent reasonable. I glassed the tubes in first with x-mat going thru the holes with the tube and turning the mat onto the flats outside, Then I laid on another layer of mat over the pipe and up to the inside. The inside of the hull and the underside of the c'pit. Then there is the bugle-shaped sculpting (epoxy/cabosil/chopped strand) and a final layer of mat. The rudder tube got the bugle up top to match the bottom Pearson did - with extra layers of mat. Interesting that the cockpit sole still can flex when walked on - it is about 3/16s thick with strips of plywood matted to the bottom for stiffning. Not a whole lot.
There are, of course, arguable merits to leaving the cockpit suspended and semi-flexible. I chose to lock it all together because I removed the aft bridge (and Mrgnstrn was on my case) Monoque. I warn you that the grinding and prep necessary especially of the hull and the underside to the cockpit structure is beyond the pale, or pail, whatever it is, you have to be Nuts to undertakeit! I had heroic help!
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MORE ABOUT POST #47
Way later EDIT (7/13)
Back in 2007-8 there appeared in a Seacocks thread on the Fuji Yacht Owners Forum (Fuji Yachts Home Page) an exchange
where the three tubes photo was reproduced in that thread and comments where made: anzam1 said, .... "This set up looks pretty failsafe to me and I would not be opposed to something like that on my boat."
BrianC responds: "One serious proviso.....If anyone does this !DO NOT! use all the filler this person has done to create a grossly oversized fillet. All that filler is a weak link in the system. A fillet is certainly needed (glass will not assume a sharp bend and even if it did, glass is strongest when the fibers are straight) but max 1" radius is more than si=ufficient. Even less is sufficient if the glassing is applied spiral fashion. The pix on my site do not shown the way the glass is applied so I will try and get some time shortly to do a mockup for photos that show what I am talking about."
In the thread this is quoted from, which was about thru-hulls and seacocks, nobody commented on what BrianC posted. No right-way-to-do-it
photos appeared.... that this person saw. I think most readers could see that BrianC's experience with FRP was limited. And he also did not know what the situation was under the cockpit in 'this person's' Ariel.
The bell shaped expansions at the top and bottom of the tubes (while perhaps not aesthetically pleasing) are not "FILLETS." Call them bolsters, maybe. They are reinforcement backing for inaccessible holes thru the hull - that can not have valves to shut them off if damaged. They are definitely overbuilt - they probably should be isolated with a protective bulkhead in case a battery ever gets loose when upside down at sea. BUT I thought them pleasing, if not whimsical, because I modeled my additions after Pearson's original free standing rudder tube stalagmite using their bugle reinforcement of the rudder tube where it comes into the Ariel hull at the waterline. Bettered theirs up a bit.... and buttered up the new drains made with 3/32" thick spiral wall gasline epoxy pipe -- into hollow support columns.
Epoxy is used, of course, to upgrade ancient polyester. By definition this is 'dry' construction, as opposed to wet where additions are added to green frp work as the boat is being built at factory, by my definition overbuilding is a good idea. The bell shape widens the dead loads that will occur on this cockpit floor, that also transfer to the hull.
You may notice in the photo, this cockpit has been immobilized with longitudinal bulkheads that marry the free hanging cockpit "bowl" to the hull beneath it.
The rudder tube (with its bell-shaped buildup of matt and who knows what?) was not attached (glued/glassed) to the underside of the cockpit BUT deliberately by Pearson - because Ariel cockpits are hung loose and unsupported - not attached anywhere except higher up where the molding becomes seats and bridgedeck. Had a real problem with that concept!
Since I stabilized the cockpit, I attached the rudder tube to the sole.
ALL the new bell-ends are composed of mishmash (epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand) on top of fiberglass, as describe above here, with more glass cloth or biaxial matt on top of everything to finish. These tubes support compression loads....the cockpit floor -- in A338's case of factory encapsulated plywood strip reinforcement -- still somewhat limber...
Again, not BrianC's textbook construct. But thick backup plates of bullet-proof mishmash is not unknown (see "Fibreglass Boats, by Hugo duPlessis, AdlardColes 1966. Reinforcing frp tubes per se' is not covered there, but it has been my glass bible since the beginning.)
About as strong as I can see how to do.... on my stomach with arms genuflecting.... into that cramped (and soon to be forgotten) corner in the aft end of the cockpit! There will, of course, be an access hatch in the sole into that part of the boat - as there should be. Batteries will be under the bridge-deck where in other Ariel's an Atomic 4 was intended.
OK. I make pretty careful patterns out of poster paper. Then it gets traced onto x-mat. If there are bends I dot lines on the mat so I know exactly where it goes on the work. X-mat* is mat with light roving sewn to it, it is very docile, unlike cloth, it doesn't mind being poked into corners eg. Compound corners a problems but yer likely to do it without getting bubbles. I cut it with scissors -- even wet with resin -- if I get a dart wrong. It is easy to pile on layers. *Biaxial matt comes in a few heavy weights, and also in 'tapes'. This is matt made for epoxy resins.
When you start, it is just stiff enuf to stand against the work upright. So you can test it first if you don't trust yer pattern. It likes to stay where you put it. Then you wet the work, with lots of resin, pat the mat in place, you can briefly reposition, move it around, unlike cloth. The surface stays dry for a short while while you try to find a position to lie in with the container of mix on your chest or perched on yer neck and where you figure the brush will end up at the end of your arm which is on the wrong side of you body. Wetting it out sticks it good to the work and you use the tip of the brush to work out a bubble or flatten a hair or poke it into a corner. A 2 or 2 1/2" china bristle brush fits the tight work best, have more control moving the liguid to the mat. Too much epoxy and it can run out... but it's so thirsty you'll never allow yourself the luxury of too much!
Preferably, you can wet out the matt on plastic film, peel it off, slap it on, press it tight...without dragging a wet brush to your work. You can also make your gloved handy-work look clean and also soak up resin by laying on thin 4 or 6 oz woven glass cloth. Biaxial matt doesn't like handling. You can extend working time on matt by poking and pushing with the chip brush... But you can gloved hand shape & sculpt by cheating with pieces of light weight glass fabric. (However, if you later are going to grind or scrape when set, stay with the matt. Cloth is for finishing.)
When hard, it leaves an extremely rough surface that you cannot easily sand to prep - so you must use no-blush 100% solids epoxy, if like I often do, leave it for a day or two. The matt is a perfect mechanical surface to add to, without prep grinding, IMCO
Clean up accidents and runs and the work area with paper rags and isopropyl alcohol*. I have favorite mixing containers so I wipe them out with alcohol too. Mix Part A and Part B in straight-sided pint containers using a wooden paint stirring stick constantly scrapping the side of the pot. I often decant into a larger pail, and stir some more. The brush won't drown if the juice isn't deep and won't run the handle as much. Don't draw the bristles outward across the edge - pat one side of the loaded brush on the inside of the pail and quickly go to the work befor the brush understands what you're doing and recovers... to drip on your hair.
*Hardware store Methyl alcohol is toxic. It's better to use 91% Isopropyl alcohol from the drug store.
When it's hard, I use Sandvic carbide scrapers, smallest makita angle grinder with those hard-flapper disks, cloth back grit for finger work. Anything shiney: scuff it. Better to work on it first day or two befor it turns hard and glassy.
Hey, you still with me, boy? Wake up, there!!:D
Ebb
You've mentioned no-blush all solids epoxy...what is your brand?
Great stuff, ebb. Very ingenious.
I've been thinking about adding extra cockpit drains too. However, I'm concerned that seawater might be forced up the short tube into the cockpit. "Ram effect," or something like that. Not alot of water, just an annoying little bit.
I have a friend whose boat does that, but only sometimes. I think it happens when the boat is heeled over and extra crew brings the stern down.
Some people cross the drains to the opposite side. But, that is supposed to make the drains less able to empty the cockpit of boarding seas, which is the whole purpose.
Anyways, nice work there.
What's the name of your baby?
Gentlemen, Thank you.
I did post a reply, but it ain't here!!!
First, Tony, did you get the reply on the beam lam? Hope so.
C'Pete,
I tried to take into account the consequences of putting the rear drains in like they are with the cockpit deck so close to the waterline. [338s forward drains exit aft Above the current waterline, while the rear drains exit aft under the current waterline.] It was a shoot first take the consequences later decision. Ive spent hours looking for a retrofit flapper valve. No wonder Pearson didn't put in rear drains. There are a number of different kinds. Ones at the cockpit deck like a ball in a cage type take up too much of the drain volume. But are right there to keep an eye on.
A power boat exhaust flapper on the bottom side in the water would probably be my choice, but I worry about the pressure of the outside water not allowing the cockpit to evacuate. So nix that. I'm thinking the flapper idea could be adapted to the cockpit deck drain. But again, at what cost to emptying the c'pit quickly?
So, how about a sliding ss or bronze drain plate that could slide open fully when needed. It would be captured under a flange, the flange screwed like any fitting to the deck. Yah shure, there are design considerations here and a month or two of design time and model making, etc. For the moment, when I go sailing (OH GLORIOUS DAY) I'll screw shower drains over the holes. Something will come up. Hopefully not too much briney.
I was thinking, the holes might make annoying gurggling sounds, as well.
Crossing the drains could be done couldn't it? Would one use hose? Probably dangerous in the back without ready access. Seacocks: impossible. What considerations are there at the companionway in a Commander? It would be possible to do a 'hard' install in the back with angles and pipe. PVC and epoxy mate well, I've heard. It IS tight back there!
The ball in a cage check valve is worth looking into. There are a couple, anyway, and if I recall, they are a fitting - in that they can be incorporated into normal or existing plumbing.
"Life is hard, but it sure is a lot of fun!":D
Tony, haven't heard on several of your issues. Here is something on the after cockpit bulkhead.
On the 2nd page of this thread about half way down is one of Bill's photos from the first shoot that shows 338's cockpit with the aft 'bridge' cut away. It clearly shows the sides of the vertical hatch that provided access to the OB well and lazarette. The bulkhead is the ply that is closest to the inside of the lazarette. The ply that is closest to the cockpit is the filler.
The filler, in 338, is no wider or any longer than the well. The factory put it in to enable the drapping of the mat around the hatch there when they were closing the boat in. I suppose it could be a different shape in yours.
Is this the piece that came loose in 113? I really don't see any way the bulkhead could have moved even if there is lot of unsaturated garbaqe along the hull inside under the funky tabbing. The funky tabbing they never thought anybody would see - except you and me! The lazarette bulkhead is also tabbed to the hull on the laz. side. So it is very secure.
#6 photo shows the Bomar riser made from the mahogany strip liner in the hole with mishmash on the outside under the hatch bottom.
#9 shows the access under the chain locker, Just access. Three tubes: Straight one on left comes from drain hole in forepeak. Bent one on right sweeps up to hole in chain locker. Both will continue by conduit under the sole to the sump and end in threaded ball cocks. Short upright is a piece of the sonar model which is sculpted into the stem. Cheers................Ebb
Ebb
I'm still here. Maybe this weekend I can get some pics loaded to the site and that may flesh out the piece of usless ply I've been asking about. Except now that I've ground away all the unsaturated roving and glass it doesn't look as scary. Still has to go! After all we gotta clear that area for a new mizzen mast step just in case. Why did you 86 the inboard for an outboard again?
Capt. T,
338 came from the factory with an OB well. What appears to be an extra large hole is what it looks like after the box or collar or sides of the well were removed. It was ground back even further when it was discovered that the hull mold was made with the OB hole - you know, like the deck mold was made with the hatch holes in place - but just a flange - and the well sides added later after the deck was attached to the boat.
Also ground that flange away which was gel coated and incorporated into the joining process. Didn't want to rely on old polyester pasted onto gel coat. The well also looked like later alterations had been done.
I felt the Yamaha 8/4. had to be custom fitted because it's so big and heavy.
What was below at the bottom of the companionway in 338 and in thw way of any access were the stubbed off factory straight-thrus and later added seacocks with hose etc. Is was C'Pete who pointed out the many connecting points (that can go wrong) like clamps, hose, valves etc. I committed early on to continuing with the OB and wanted the space below the c'pit for stowage. Drains went out the back.
When Capt. Brent thought about putting his batteries under the cockpit, I thought it a great idea. So batteries where the BETA diesel would go became my plan - I have the flush deck access hatch for the c'pit. The framing under the cockpit for the bats and rather large hatch will create substancial strength and rigidity.
The long answer:D
Hope you are proceeding with your upgrade!!!!!
Paid another visit to #338 and here are the results.
The first photos are of the "motor clamp board" being installed at the forward end of the ob well . . from below
And from above (ie., from the cockpit)
Next, we have the fuel tanks (the starboard side is shown). The hold approximately 8 gal each.
Here is the top of the tank and lid assembly as modeled by the captain ..
Here is the new bottom deck in the port cockpit locker.
The forward bulkhead in the port cockpit locker. When completed, the locker will be sealed off from the interior of the boat.
Approximate location where the propane tanks will go UNDER the deck (one will be outboard of the tank in the photo).
Quarter berth is moved back into starboard cockpit locker. It will be sectioned off from hatch by creating a small storage locker under the hatch cover that will be sealed off from the interior.
Starboard quater berth from the main cabin. Photo on bulkhead is of Cape Dory 25 from same the angle. Appears to be a model for the modification.
The new (yet to be installed) mast base step.
It will move as shown by the capitan.
Ebb
Holy Hot Tomale! There's lots of really good stuff goin' on out there in CA. (Unfortunately none of it has to do with the 'gubinatorial' race-Coleman all the way, right? Finish your boat fast.)
As always you have first-class work all the way on 338. Love the outboard well. It looks 'wet' to me but hey I lack ALOT of experience when it comes to sailing these boats. Did you scrap the aft cockpit scuppers or am I not really seeing what I think I'm seeing? We'll be watching the propane locker ever so closely as I'm trying to find a place to put them on 113. I was thinking a small locker forward because even with a pretty good heel the drain vent would still be above the waterline though I don't anticipate being on any tack for several days at a time and it would mean a longer run of supply hose inside the cabin(think propain not propane). I don't want to put one topside because no matter what they look footlockers lashed to the deck and besides that's where the genset and A/C belong. Port cockpit locker has a smaller rectangular access cut into the floor. What has Ebb planned for that bugger? Quarter berth, fantastico! Even the remainder of the aft bulkhead looks comfortable. And finally, how 'bout that mast step! I think I'll have to add one of those to our order.
I'm jealous Ebb, tell us what's what! It's so humid here the tyvek sticks like a wet suit and restrict your movements. I've given up trying untill we get cooler, drier air. Tony G
Thanks Bill, more forensics for an emerging body of evidence!
Hey, Tony, too bad about the wet where you are. Here, it's just the epoxy going off in ten minutes and dripping gallons of sweat into the work.
The OB well as you see it would indeed be wet. The hole is still in its grinded back state. Will try some ideas out on just how to close it up a bit. Soon.
The aft scuppers have a patch still on them from the final leveling. Never got round to the final color coat or cutting the hole free. Wear is doing the job.
Man, I have Agonized over the propane locker. That little stubby bulkhead under the locker-lid scupper isn't glassed in yet. Putting the locker there makes the only remaining exterior locker space very short and small. But the gas would be right next to the appliance. Though much too close to the waterline. Any feedback on that, guys? Couldn't use the stove, probably, except in the marina. Or on a port tack. Maybe here one could use one of those ball-in-cage backflow devices??? I mean on the thru hull drain out the side of the locker!
It'll take a bit of Houdini to glass it in properly. In fact, getting the bottom of the whole locker in took 1/2 an hour of jockying! The bottom of the locker is above the level of the cockpit deck and tilts toward it for draining.
I may go with a square rather than round (shopmade) hatch to get better access to regulator, gauge and hose. You need a 12 1/2" hole to get those 10# (2 1/2 gal) tanks in. And they are not a common size. A slightly shorter version than I got of these are available from W.M. (They don't 'stock' these catalog items so you can't go in and actually measure them - the catalog sez they are 12 1/2 " tall - mine from a propane service at $38 a pop are 14 - But I was desparate!)
Because under the cockpit is home to the battery box (yet to come,) that access hole in the locker is just that. You need to get to any part of the hull with relative ease. If I put another stubby bulkhead under the locker deck. I'll be able to use that area for extra stowage, and not loose stuff down under. Underneath the proposed propane locker there is space for mounting electrical support toys with access behind the ladder and under the bridge deck.
I have also put in longitudinal bulkheads that run along the edge of the cockpit underneath. They run from the lazarette bulkhead to the companionway blkhd. And provide another kind of stringer in the rise of the hull from the keel. Have we got Strong or what!!!
A Mighty Ariel to be sure.
But, the boat won't be complete without an oceangoing wine rack.
http://www.drycreekvineyard.com/nautical/wine_rack.html
How Do you find this stuff Cpete?
How about that rack... a 4 bottle carbon fibre & teak rack for an 8 month voyage! I guess the wine ain't for quaffing. In choosing yer luxuries, you should also include an argon gas cylinder for topping off opened bottles to keep the wine from oxydizing. They might consider freeze drying the wine to go with their alpine cuisine to save space - or putting a bladder in the bilge and recycling the glass to save weight! I heard once that the sloshing of unbottled cabernet in a tanker's bilge accelerates the aging nicely! Like a two week vovage and you get ten year old wine.
Can't afford the wine I like to drink, but why shouldn't any Ariel consider making ale like the great Chichester, wasn't it.? I believe you once gave us some pix of the famous sloshed skipper and all on that! But Not the recipe or a diagram of the gear! Now There is some gear you might lash to yer mast for lack of a locker!!!
Sir Francis and his beer tap
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...useful+project
Of course, Sir Francis also brought along a good selection of wine and liquor. He had to stop in Australia for more supplies and added the following.
Could have used a little rum.
Here it is
C'pete, Thanks again for another shot of KBE Sir Francis!
Was going to comment after looking at the list of liguid stores that it was no wonder he had to have a 'self-leveling chair.' But in quantity there's hardly enuf to get around the Horn! There's a site kept by his son in honor of his courageous odds-beater dad. Found it on the internet thru google. Gives a chronology, back of the photos, that proves he was an amazing survivor. He beat cancer eg to make his round the world run. His map business has a site still. He also wrote a whole bunch of books...you might say he was another crazy writer...but British.:rolleyes:
This weekend we got the Yamaha mounted on the clamp-board. Moving the mounting position forward and the size of the unit means I have to take the arm off and place the controls in the well. [uhhh, the cockpit foot well] Didn't want to do that!
The center of the prop on this motor is 16" below the waterline! Will have to consult with an expert on this situation.:confused:
Ebb,
How are you sealing and venting the propane locker from the rest of the boat ?
Capt Mike,
and anybody else,
have deleted these posts because IMCO the propane tanks CANNOT be put in a cockpit locker - there is no way to provide drainage for the locker on port tacks. Regs say that the propane locker must always be free to drain.
[Can't leave this alone for 5 minutes. Add this to the stew:
Ok, so we can live with the thru hull drain on the outside of the boat - BUT if you are tipped on the other tack the gas can puddle on the cockpit side. What to do? We can't lead a drain out any lower that the cockpit deck, right? What would the regulators say???]
No way can a propane locker go in the cockpit on an Ariel.
[I will leave the above posts alone for the cognisenti and those who might enjoy seeing ebb writhe in mental anguish & embarrasemnt. Tonight I'm going to edit the above posts as radically as allowed.]:o
LOOK,
Does anybody have anything to say on the subject?
What have others done about the propane situation?
A campstove with the 1# throwaways is certainly an option for non-live-aboards. There's a gizmo you can get for refilling the cannisters - but you have to freeze them first! How about that. Not easy, but do-able for the weekender.
Had to bite the bullet and go to the unmentionable marine suypermarket to get some polysulfide. $10 for a toothpaste sized tube. But on display was as 10# aluminum propane bottle that had brackets welded on it for horizontal mounting. .........11" round, including the brackets, and barely 16" long. ...........So I'm back to thinking about the cockpit locker again!!!
The problem would be how to mount them high up under the seat, create a glassed in 'false' bottom in the locker. And figure out a double drain system or a single drain from the center of the floor to lead out the hull. Any comments? Much appreciated!
Ebb,
Those aluminum bottles sound like a better banana-mouse trap. If they were a few inches smaller in diameter it would be easier to tuck them up under a C-pit seat and vent (I really like your idea there). Have you thought about just biting the bullet and mounting a couple of bottles on the pushpit? Easy, no plug venting readilly available now!
Hey, I'm still way back at the forward hatch-How did you get that footprint riser built up and what's underneath it on the inside. Tony G
J. H. Chriminee! those bottles...maybe the horiz alum Could go in the c'pit seat next to the bridge deck near where the cooker would go. BUT, I'ld only assign them 2 that space to the right of the locker lid. It's fairly useless space unless you're prone to stuffing the locker to the top. So what is avalable as a ready made hatch? NOTHING. So you'ld have to saw out the lid, probably opening not only the top but down the side in front.......Can't face it at this point.
Besides, I don't think, even if you gained a few inches by mounting them high under thw seat that when you're tipped the locker could drain properly. Too close to the waterline. Bummer
Bottles in the pushpit, dressed in blue, be the very last resort. I nearly decided to carry only trailmix on board and a swing-stove with 1# throwaways. No kidding.
The foredeck surround for the hatch. Made a 1/2" liner for the hole, deep enough to tuck the under deck backup strips against it. Then I took the hatch bottom and carpet taped the bottom of it (originally I peeled the tape and stuck on mylar, but the stuff already on the tape releases just as well.) Laboriously wrapped the edge of the bottom, the Bomar is 1/4" high there and rounded too. Clamp it to the liner.
Made up a batch of mishmash. Put the chopped strand in early to get them good and soaked, then add the silica to stiff peaks. Then scrub virgin epoxy into the cavity demolishing the brush. Then use a paper rag towel to wipe any liquid out, don't want the mm to sag. Tuck the goop under the hatch, get it up in the top, you're going to have voids anyway. Leave it rough but not all the way out to the edge, push the fibers in or blade them away. It'll be hardening by now. Mix up plain gel and blade it smooth against the first fill to a close right angle to the hatch. I left it a bit under so that later I could come back with a color coat
Mark the holes, drill them oversize, NOT all the way thru, down to the trim under the deck. Fill with epoxy, there was soak in so the levels fell. Mildly scuff the top of the hardened base and wood and level and fill imperfections with gel. This was the foredeck. Replacement of the hatch in the coach roof was a bit different because of the radical curvature. Gotta go, later!!
Ebb,
Hey on James Baldwin's site one would get the impression that those one pound bottles are what they use!
I think I understand what you wrote about the technique-I'll try it. But it'll have to wait until next spring unless we get some really scarey weather here. Thanks again Ebb Tony G
Capt Tony,
But here's the rub.
Where do you store the canisters?
Some guy used 3" or 4" PVC pipe to stack them in like artillery shells and
festooned short lengths on his stern rail with hose clamps. Looked just like real west marine propane bottles in their blue sunbrella suits. He recycled the empties. That was cool. Keeping the tube full kept them from rattling.
A cruiser might have twelve foot pieces of schedule 40 along the side decks lashed to the toerail. Maybe you could toss them at pirates, one pound propane bombs, by the time you got to micronesia they'ld be empty tho. Where out there do you recycle micro propane bottles, anyway?
How about stowing them in the mast? Nobody thought of That, I betcha! You'ld have to send the mate up the mast every time you had an empty to put in.
Here are a couple of photos of Ebb's new rudder. Design by Alberg. Execution by Borregaard.
And on the inside . . .
Holy Moley, when was THAT?
All those zigzags didn't get translated to existing.
Top third over the bottom two thirds (in area.)
You can see a split in the doorskin, at a right angle to the keel.
It's that top third that comes apart.
The 1" shaft of the real one is split for about a foot in length. Instead of two flat surfaces, one side of the split is keyed about 1/4" X 1/4" proud. Like the key in the groove of the tiller head. Only it's milled in the shaft. The mating half has a groove to receive it. When you put them together it's round again. Has three 1/4" thru holes for 1/4" bolts.
Basically, the blade is halved more or less in conjunction with the split shaft. The strap core at the trailing edge has some machine screws holding it together.
The bottom part is normal welded strap and foam. The shaft is whole down here of course and the gudgeon will pass around the shaft here. near the top of this section. It's about half way up the keel. Naturally I had to fiddle here too. In this case it is not a strap but a split casting that hugs the shaft. It is to be bolted thru the keel in such a way that one side only will detach when unbolted. We'll see.
Generally, the 1/8' strap is welded to the sides of the shaft and ground back at an angle. If you swung the rudder in its theoretical 30 to 35 degrees very little of the strap enters the channel of the keel. But I'm talking thru my hat because 338 has a reworked keel/rudder interface. The heads of the nuts and bolts will swing into the channel space - barely. Also I knew I needed the option to wrap the shaft in glass. The channel has an 1 1/2" radius. Allowing 3/16" if needed around the 1" shaft for wrap.
not worth a whole lot. But if you and I were having a few beers I would propose this.
I'ld scrap this clamshell idea because the glassing is so difficult. If I could have 'seen' into the problem with the models I made, I don't think I would have continued. Once I was welding the rudder I was commited.
A take apart rudder is a good brain exercise. Agreed? If NO use yer curser to exit NOW.
Here, instead of clamshell, let's just cut it across like a loaf of bread.
I would simply make a top half that socketted into the lower half. If you can imagine two straps (1/8" thick, 1 1/2" wide bar) coming off the sides of the shaft and meeting at the trailing edge, you have a long narrow triangle. Make this at the top of the bottom half. It is hollow in there.
Make the mating part of the top half out of the same material but smaller so that it fit snug inside the long narrow hollow. That's a lot of bearing surface. You could have the shaft fit into a self socket also. Might even be four sided, male and female. Maybe that's over kill. Maybe the shaft could merely be cut there, conceptually. Actually the rudder is two separate pieces.
You'ld have a removable fairing piece on the boat or the top of the rudder that would allow the two pieces to be separated, by lifting the top part up. The bottom half would be lifted out of the shoe, and the top would be slided out of the tube. Would the keying of the mating parts have to be any more than two inches deep? Don't think so, And the fiberglassing would be a breeze. I would run it by a structural engineer. Wish I'ld thought of this befor. Beelieve I'll have another pint with my friend here, anybody got a pencil?
But, do you even need the continuous shaft at all? Need the top for the tiller head, need the shaft thru the rudder tube, need the connection down at the shoe. What do you need the middle for? [need something in the middle for the gudgeon strap keeper]
The original rudder, you need the full/split shaft. But with epoxy and glass and welded flat bar the middle part of the shaft is useless extra weight! The original did not have a continuous shaft. An aperture in the rudder might present a minor design adjustment.
1" silicone rod goes for around $30 a foot. Manganese rod is available.
If I had the time...............:D :D
so let me get this straight, your rudder is two halves (port and stbd) about the center line of the boat? what is the split shaft for? and how far up/down is it split?
by the way, i dig the shape.
" . . .by the way, i dig the shape.
See Alberg's lines drawing in the manual. It's his!
Capt. Mrgnstrn,
Check out post above beginning 'Holy Moley.' Can't make it any clearer without photos.
If the whole rudder had been in two halves, then I guess the whole shaft would have been also, so I went with what I thought was the shortest break in the shaft one could get away with. One side has the small upper half section and the shaft portion what goes up the tube. The other "half" is all the rest of the rudder, the major portion, all of it really except for the upper flap bit. OK? Not yet, huh? Me neither.
OK, I understand where the upper and lower halves of the rudder are separated.
I don't fully understand the shafting, but maybe a few pictures would help.
you used PVC foam for the diagonals, but have you determined if the the whole rudder bouyant or not?
muchas gracias...
foam is the filler in the clam shell, it isn't structural. There's very little of it. The rudder is rather narrow, right? The rudder is as bouyant as a piece of lead, or bronze. As I intimated above, this is not a good design, A good design is the original rudder. The 6 or 7 feet of 1" bronze shaft-rod at about 3# a foot doesn't make the original a floater, either. If the original rudder had been made totally out of wood, it would have been a floater. I have not heard that a lite foamfilled neutral rudder, like those that stand alone behind a fin, is desirable on the end of a keel. Would like to hear a discussion on this!!!
A rudder with two or three narrow triangles of flat bronze bar welded to the sides of the rod instead of allthread drilled thru the rod - the rest made up of divinycell, glass and epoxy would make a good substitute - come in at about the same weight - easier to maintain - ten times stronger - than the original. IMCO.
A two part socketing rudder like the one above could be designed at the cost of more weight. A full size working model out of wood would be made first.
Will make a valient attempt at finishing the present project. I advise everyone against it. Unless you make a compleat working model first! If the fiberglassing is successful there hopefully will be some photos.
Have about 3 passes, so far, of 407 in the hollows that go from stem nearly to the stern on 338 Has anybody faired their A/C to a batten? Would really like to hear how you proceeded! I can't be the only crazy around here? Love that longboarding!:eek:
Sorry Ebb,
You're about eight months ahead of me in that department. Are you going to apply a dark topside paint? Is that why you're fairing the hull or is it just a personal obsession?:D I know 113 could use a little (read alot) of longboard action before painting next summer....so once again, I'm relying on you for technique and direction. Wish I could help but what I'm really saying, I guess, is keep up the good work. Just remember Ebb, I'm behind you all the way! Tony G
Capt T! How goes the prog? All kinds of fairing questions, probably some important not being asked. Began getting cooler weekends - going up that ladder all this time - sighting the hollows on the way to another project - had to do it - facing another seasonal slog thru wind and rain.
Some guys on the net talk about osmotic gelcoat blister repair or hydrodynamic maximum lift foil section fairing, but there is no blow by blow on this hickey problem we have.
I got a six foot piece of 1/8" x 1 1/2" aluminum from the hardwear. It has a smooth sexy feel to it. I had tried the aerosol primer technique, putting on a mst of color and then long boarding. Was effective - and depressing to see the huge dark puddles left. I felt uncomfortable with the foreign substance on the gel coat. It would be useful later in the topsides game.
338 had some dramatic filling to do, some places the bottom of the swale under the batten pressed on the hull seemed 1/4" deep! The flexible bar is laid against the hull and encouraged into the mildest arc by bending the top toward the toerail. You can't bend the batten around the bilge without putting a kink in it. One time I read a guy explaining how he used monofiliment to locate the dips - you can get the whole side - but you can't fiddle, or fondle, that extra fullness that brings relief to a tired brain and a weary eye. Don't think it's only a male thing.
We had longboarded the topsides twice befor, so they were well scratched. A few hilltops had begun to show some green thru the white. And we were beginning to be well versed in the long diagonal strokes needed for any fairing.
Every 5 or 6 inches along the hull, holding the batten at the seam and below at the turn in the hull, made a vertical pencil line representing the supposed hollow you could see under the batten. Connecting the ends of these lines together outlined the hollows into 'puddles.' Prime the puddle with virgin epoxy. Wipe as much off again with terry rags befor gooping.
407 I hear is a patented mix, Tried to make up fairng compound myself from microballoons and silica. Even at a stiff 50 to 50 mix I still got serious sag. And it was a b@!*^%d to sand. So I snuck into WM and shelled out $2 an ounce for 407, mixed it into a stiff as I dared brownie dough, and spread it on. Two 15 oz (!) containers $62.
Wouldn't you know, West Systems 407 sags TOO. You hafta mix in 404, says a wag. But that's silica, says I (whatever the damn number is!) And I KNOW that stuff is a bear to sand and impossible to fair.
So, I draw a piece of sheet metal bent improvisationally into a very approximate arc across the goop. collect it on the spatula and reapply it to the skips, and keep drawing the metal across the puddle. But the more you work the stuff (you ARE pressing it against the hull, which is a good thing) the more you bring liquid to the surface.
And it sags continuously until it gets hard. Must be what the patent was for. But it IS easy to sand. It's shiney too. After sanding, the low areas are untouched and dark while the rest has 'greyed' out. Where you did a single swipe and it's thin it stays dull and no sag. Lesson # 1: do not put it on thick on vertical surfaces. We haven't much, and the sag you learn to control by not trying to fill all at once. The 407 under the 36 grit longboarding doesn't produce dust, it's a kind of grit. But it has a static stickyness to it, likes to cling.
Ahhh! but the topsides, even in this 36 grit stage are beginning to look S O O O O sweet!
One nagging question. Is that this relatively soft stuff is going on to a very hard surface. That's the question. Now, we will sand this stuff back as far as we can. Maybe even flatter than Alberg's rounded curves you can see on the lines drawings, maybe. Once it is where it is going to be it can be hardened up with plain epoxy with a little silica, maybe? That's a question. I'ld say that nearly half of the topside surface is chocolate colored at the present time. That's a question.
[After experimenting: 407 can be made up extra stiff, non sag, and pressed on the surface, but maybe not with the comfort of being sure of a bond that a wetter mix will have. Sanding 407 does produce dust - not airbourn dust. The tarmat under the boat is pink with the stuff.]
Ebb,
I used the El'cheapo fairing compound this time around when I filled in the forward ports. At first I thought I made a BIG mistake because it remained somewhat 'soft' for a day or two. While I was pouting about my blunder, kickin' cans and such the stuff turned solid. So I guess one has to sand it in that time frame when it's not too soft and not too hard. But I was happy as heck to toil a few extra hours with the homemade long board when I found it hard and realized I wouldn't have to resort to digging it out with solvents and a putty knife. I think it took four or five build-ups to get to a 'feel' that I was satisfied with. Yah, it has to go on thin(a big thanks to my dad for 'letting' me work in his bodyshop when I was in highschool-and to think I thought all of that other stuff was more important).
Those Gougeon brothers got most of my income a few years ago. Don't get the impression I don't like their product. I liked it alot, learned from it alot, had alot of fun with it too. Didn't know there was so much one could do with epoxy! Not just boats. But I think it was YOU in one of your previous post regarding 'poxies that convinced me to try one of the less famous labels. Glad I did-saved a bunch of money.
Like the hickey analogy, helps keep the eroticism up when she's all torn apart. That's next year for me now. Too cold here allready. I just cleaned her up really good for winter and will go into pattern making and alternative layout scheming. Oh yeah-account fattening too. Tony G
p.s. lookee here what you've done:eek:
looks real nice. Whose stainless hatches are they? With that wide frame they look Belgian or something. From your top view, hard to tell, but they look closer to the deck than the Bomars I chose.
That foredeck hatch looks a size smaller than the one in front of the mast. What's your plan? Mine is where the anchor selection and a half mile of chain will rust.
Glad you found other epoxy sources, especially for the health reasons I once groused about. You know I don't have Absolute proof of the contaminated epoxy thing, but nobody has come forward on that to counter it, so the silence is my 'proof.'
I'm absolutely certain (Assume Is The Mother of All Foulups) that my mailorder supplier can provide an epoxy I can use in 338's builtin sweet water tanks. NOT West System.
And I'm taking a lot on faith and other worker's experiences using their 407 product. That's why I've been so explicit. Around the yard nobody has said anything negative - but the caveat is: Do not use 410 (the tan filler) under a dark painted hull. Not sure what happens, but I assume the paint lifts off.
So this really is a sucker punch to me. Why would you sell something to a bunch of amatuers (professionals aren't going to pay 7/11 prices for cute little boxes) that you can't use in conjunction with the goddam "System"??? You maybe Need the lighter stuff to finish off the fairing with big number grits. Right?
Even if I planned a white hull, would I use something that's going to maybe peel off a thousand hours flawless shine? If the hull gets too hot?
So I'm always going to sweat the 407! And I'm going to have to find a finishing off compound from somewhere else (since I can't trust my own formulations!) I remember Smith & Co used to have very light white two-part fairing compounds. Gotta check it out. :mad:
I forgot all about the water tank issues! That was something I was going to keep an eye on and check into. The mind is a terrible thin to waste. Those hatches are Bomar. One is 16.5 square and the other 13.25 square. Thought they might brighten the place up a bit and move some air through. They are 'seconds' we snagged from Pompanette LLC. Miniscule cast flaws on the spigot that won't show and won't cause problems sealing. Just reaping the benefits of a wasteful society(saved about a case of Glen Livet)or...er...so. But I've sworn to give up my vices for a better boat :( . Wish we had a yard near here to reap the benefit of experience. Ten minutes of conversation can reveal a whole lot more than ten minutes of reading! That sounds bad-strike that note Tony G
Captain T, Up above here - dunknow what ElCheapo you used, but we do know it was epoxy. I dunknow what epoxy is cheap?? Some paint store type places have two-part epoxy filler in jars, some have a couple nougat bars you cut and mix. Smith&Co make a rot repair kit that has a white filler, none of it is cheap! But depending on the temperature some of these fillers can take a week to harden up.
I just happened to stop by Smith&Co, the plant, where they retail too.
They have a one gallon kit (1/2 and 1/2) for $125 (!) of their Fill-It, which they put in their rot repair kits. But the stuff was originally, and I think it still is, the only ready-made filler in the market, the microbaloons and cabosil and whatever are mixed in already into the two parts. One has some color in it so you know when it's blended. It has a 3 hr pot life at 70 degrees, 16 hrs at 28 degrees. Hey, you minisotans can work clear thru the winter!!! That is if you are filling.
That's the rub. I don't think this will tool any better tham 407. But IMCO it ends up about as hard as the topsides. IT DOES NOT SAG. Steve Smith has a product here, but I don't know if It has yet caught on. I bought a sample to try, $20! I've used the filler for years, just not in this application
I just don't know why certain products become fashionable, like westsystem, others take forever to catch on. I overheard this young athletic sailer, who I've never seen with as much as a scraper in his mit, trying to impress an attractive gal who Was scraping her bottom - he was saying that westsystem was the only good stuff and don't get the junk local stuff from TAP. You know, the stuff I've been working with succesfully for a couple years.
I'll mix up a wad of the Fill-It, try it in a low spot, and report back, Tony.
Not advertised as a fairing filler but will sand to a feather edge. They did make a 'glazing' filler once that had the consistency of coolwhip, I think it had too many lethal solvents in it. Remember it smelled Strong. Smith&Co have a Hazardous Non Waranty Can't Be Made Safe label on they products.
You know...
If you do not have a huge amount of fairing to do, and are only looking to fill a localized area, you can use Z-spar Splash Zone. Don't use it on anything you aren't going to paint, as the water drippage is a permanent splashzone-colored stain. Does not cake-frost with a spreader lika fairing compound...you sort of squidge it in with wet fingers. Boat Building with play-doh. It does have considerable durability, and it is very sculptable, which can come in handy. also shapes, files, sands very nicely.
Not exactly the stuff for getting rid of little ripples, but there are some times and places that it really is trick stuff.
Dave
Capt Dave,
Looks like I'll have to put on a hat to sneek into westwhatever and take a look at this wonderous dough. Didn't get what you meant about the splash zone and the stain. So what is it, a sandable watermix fixall? It is the minor filling stuff that sands to dust but fills every imperfection - that I'm looking for.
Recall a large tube of one part 3M made years ago. It sanded absolutely S m o o o t h.
My problem with paint fillers is that I think they are too soft to put on the topsides. I mean the hull sides. It's a hard life out there