Navigation Lights

Recieved my new nav LEDs from Dr LED and they are very cool. One problem though the green and red would not go deep enough into the socket on the old fixtures. Waiting for a reply as to the best bulb for the old pearson sidelights. The stern light fit just fine as it is not as deep, bright as a lighthouse. Also put one of the 12v medium base (household style) bulbs in for the cabin lite and it is also very cool. Will be buying another. On the packages it says Zero RF.
I thought about trying to push the sockets up into the fixture but was afraid I would screw em up. Anybody ever try that?

Careful... The Dr. LEDs I tested didn't have the required width of vertical light emission. If you heel past 20 degrees, the sidelights will disappear. The COLREGs require +/- 25 degrees. Here's my letter to Dr. LED and their reply:

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Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: USCG Colreg Cert
To: customerservice@doctorled.com


Thank you. I will return the product to the vendor.

I am puzzled by your response since the brightness output requirements are the same for both powered and sailing vessels.

I recommend measuring the vertical sectors. My measurement shows the light being cut off entirely at 18.8 degrees referenced to the axis from the center of the LED to the top internal reflector.

Since this could adversely impact safety at sea, how do you plan to communicate this issue to vendors and the boating community? There currently is no labeling that I can find that indicates the LEDs are not certified for sailing vessels.


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Dr. LED Customer Service <customerservice@doctorled.com> wrote:
Hi Patrick,

You are right that our red and green bulbs are certified for power vessels only for the time being. The reason being, red and green LEDs were not as bright as white LED in terms if lumen output. We can certainly improve the bulbs in our next production runs. For your information, the while bulb is certified for use with sail and power vessels as the lumen output is higher.

Yours truly,

James
for Dr. LED

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Also, "Zero RF" is an unattainable pipe dream for LEDs that operate at a wide voltage margin (12 to 24 volts) because they incorporate switching regulators that will produce some RF interference (RFI). They all produce some RF interference, although there is a great variation in how much. The only way to achieve "Zero RF" is to encase them in shielding.

Here are spectragraphs of the RFI noise from the red Dr. LED I tested.

The first image is the RFI noise level from the Dr. LED.
Attachment 9333

The second image is the baseline (background) noise levels (LED powered off) taken inside the RF shielded (several feet of steel and concrete) Screen Room I used for testing. The Dr. LED's RFI was more than 30 decibels (a ratio of 1,000 times) higher than the background noise.
Attachment 9332

Placed near your VHF antenna, this noise level from the LED lamp would practically obliterate your VHF reception.

I do wish there were RFI standards applied here in the US to these lamps. Most sailors don't have a screen room and a $20,000 spectrum analyzer handy. About the only test you can perform is to tune in the weakest weather station on your VHF radio and then turn on your LED lights. If the weather station reception is lost, you have a problem, though without a test instrument, it will be difficult to quantify how serious that problem is.

The best LEDs I've found have the European Community "CE" stamp on them. Unlike the United States, the Europeans have RFI test standards.

You can read more about Dr. LED issues here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...hts-36083.html

My source was www.mastlight.com

1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Red, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27R.html
1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Green, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27G.html
1 @ BA15DD 12 LED White http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html
1 @ unknown masthead bulb, white http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html

May well have the same tilt issues - of which I was completely unaware!

Kyle


What am I doing wrong? If I click on any of your links (which were the ones Rico told us about when he went to LED nav lights) it takes me to a home page for mastlight.com and when I click on navigation lights I get links to lots of other sites where I cannot find the bulbs you are talking about.


I'm trying to find LED Nav light bulbs that will work with the original fixtures to keep Destiny as original as possible but seem to be having a really difficult time getting to the bulbs you are talking about.


Help please!

Hey Jerry,
Not sure if they are out of business...? Maybe their website went kaput. I sent Hans a message (sales@mastlight.com) - guy who helped me before. Will let you know if / when I hear something. Sorry, I should have checked the links before posting.
KW

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucky Dawg

My source was www.mastlight.com

(...)

May well have the same tilt issues - of which I was completely unaware!

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The +/- 25 degree requirement is in Annex I of the COLREGs:

10. Vertical sectors
(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of lights
on sailing vessels underway shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
(b) In the case of sailing vessels underway the vertical sectors of electric
lights as fitted shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 50 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 25 degrees above to 25 degrees below the horizontal.

Why? Sailboats heel. The side lights shouldn't vanish as seen by another vessel at reasonable degrees of heel.

(Note that when the light intensity is reduced to 50%, it's visibility is reduced to 25%, i.e., if the light is visible at 2 miles when viewed straight on, it is visible for only 1/2 mile at 50% intensity.)

It requires brighter lights (or more LED lamps) to project the same amount of light over the less concentrated +/- 25 degree vertical arc. So the lights meeting the standards for sailboats are more expensive to manufacture. If the manufacturer can pawn off motorboat lights onto the sailing community, they make a bigger profit. But if you ever have a collision, you can expect the USCG to go over your lights with a fine toothed comb, and YOU are responsible for installing the correct lights. The manufacturer will shrug off responsibility for the accident saying: "we didn't claim those lights could be used on a sailboat".

If the lights aren't specifically labelled for sailboats and made by a reputable firm that specializes in navigation lights (unlike Dr. LED), expect them to be inappropriate for sailboats.

Since I sail mostly in the Pacific away from city lights that would otherwise degrade my night vision, I personally disliked the location of the side lights on the cabin sides: the lights (especially the green starboard light) reflected off the side deck and ruined my night vision. So I placed my red and green lights at the bow. Below are photos. The black masking on the toe rail top prevents the lights from reflecting off the white paint and then off the bow railing back at my eyes.

I used the Hella marine NaviLED Port & Starboard Navigation Light Twin Pack. Order info here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?...557&id=1342750, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_...tion_Sheet.pdf. The lights are certified by the manufacturer as suitable for sailing vessels, and I personally set them up on a jig and verified the vertical sectors were greater than +/- 25 degrees.

On the datasheet, note the "CE" seal and the statement: "The electrical circuits contain components that suppress possible interference, both emission as well as susceptibility, to the limits prescribed in EN 60945." That's a European standard. There sadly are no U.S. standards. That's "deregulation" at work here! If the time ever comes that you can't hear the Coast Guard calling you over the radio frequency trash your LEDs are causing, you can thank the Grand Obstructionist Party in Congress for the lack of regulations (we all know who that is). That leaves you with only one reliable choice for LEDs: Buy European.

Patrick,
Thanks for taking the time to set us straight on this very important safety issue.
Really appreciate your research and expertise.
And getting in the face of those who short cut sailors for profit.

Internet forums - give-&-take discussion - seem to be the final stronghold against incompetence and fraud.
What other social outlet is there?
This Pearson Ariel/Commander sailboat site gets, what seems to me, a huge number of visitors.
Whenever I come aboard, any time of day or night or day of week, there are always
20 or 30 'users' listed...usually 'guests'...and a fair amount of spider activity. There is constant visitor turnover activity 24/7.
Obviously, a lot of folks are looking in.

Just trying to say that if response to your navlight revelations seems sparse, it isn't!

.................................................. .................................................. ..................................

Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?
Thanks!

Thanks for the insight on the LEDs, never would have considered those issues. Wow, you got some forward firepower, what ya got to cover the stern? And say... What kind of game are we playing with the blue line in your deck? Asym tack?
How about the red line that goes thru the block on your stem fitting, jib douser?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Commander227

Thanks for the insight on the LEDs, never would have considered those issues. Wow, you got some forward firepower, what ya got to cover the stern? And say... What kind of game are we playing with the blue line in your deck? Asym tack?
How about the red line that goes thru the block on your stem fitting, jib douser?

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I'm using a Hella Marine 2 NM NaviLED PRO Stern Navigation Lamp on the stern. (Order info here: http://search.defender.com/?expression=700834&x=0&y=0, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_...tion_Sheet.pdf).

The blue line is my pendant that I use to haul the anchor rode to the bow while I toss it over from the cockpit. Full details are here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...6711#post26711. And yes, as you surmised, the red line is my jib douser.

Note that Rule 22 of the COLREGs requires that the minimum visibility of the stern light for a vessel less than 12 meters (I count an Ariel as being 8 meters) is 2 NM. That minimum is met with the light above. The sidelights (red and green) only need to be 1 NM to satisfy the COLREGs, but I opted for 2 NM lights. I reason that, considering how little power the LEDs draw, there's not much gained by using less-intense lights.

> Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?

The larger 6 LED assembly is Larson Electronics model LEDP3W-6-F-WHT and the two smaller 3 LED assemblies are model LEDP3W-3-F-WHT. The clamps are model BC-3-WHT-1. Put lots of anti-seize grease on the stainless steel screws before you install them in the aluminum clamps. I didn't, and regretted the omission.

Be sure you're sitting down before you see the price on those lamps. They are pricey, but they've held up to years of being struck by boarding waves and still continue to function. They are very, very bright. Since I've had them, I haven't had to untangle a crab pot line from my outboard prop, and they sure are nice when coming into port and docking.

Hey guys I have found some LED's that look like they will work in our original fixtures. I worked with John Gamble from Hotwire Enterprises (link below) and this is what he came up with for me.


White stern TW-BA-15-SM white
red port light TW-BA-15-SM red
and green starboard TW-BA-15-SM green


They come from MarineBeam and this is the link.

http://store.marinebeam.com/bayonet-...lacenment.html


Hotwire's website is here....

http://svhotwire.com/

That's a great site. Been there before, but lost it in the internet forest.

They seem to have really good boat specific products, which they say they have tested.

Their navlights are CE. And sound like they are completely waterproof.
That would make them unique!

And they are sailors.

Their navlights look tidy, streamlined.... and they say will do 2NM, or more.
Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.
Have heard that drastically reduces lumens.

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Was unable to navigate Larson Electronics because of language difficulties.
Like the idea of using pull/pushpit tubing for night lights...
MARINEBEAM has those machined aluminum clamps for a range of tube beginning at 3/4".
Evidently they make them for you on order...
But don't seem to have the 'housing' like for pbryant's honkin crabpot lights.:rolleyes:

They also sell a portable LED SPOTTING FLASHLIGHT (3 D-cell) that will find
a buoy at 650 meters on a full moon night! (that's what hype says)
{Using a spotting light powered by only 3 D-cells IS a big deal. However, the real deal
would be to have the light supported with a charger*. It would be even better, imco, for
the light to be stored IN the charger - so that the light is always fully charged.
The catalog hype dance also avoids any mention of 'water resistance'. Buyer has to assume
that the flashlight is marinized beyond its rubber on/off button.
Body is tubular. Any time you put it down, it'll be somewhere else, when you look for it.}
But a focused laser-like beam (minimal light 'spill-over') is a big deal in the cockpit at night.

Haven't gotten any yet.

*An onboard portable charger seems like a good idea for small rechargeable batteries.
All-Battery.com sells Tenergy's TN190 AdvancedUniversalCharger which charges NiMH.

Looked for a solar charger. There are no marine versions, so I suppose you go for a
lubber charger that has all the safety features (timer, reverse polarity and short circuit
protection and bad/non-rechargeable cell protection) and is sold through a US company....?
NiMH batteries do not have a great reputation and other chemistries aren't in the
market yet for AAA/AA/C/D/9V batteries. Hopefully they'll use the LiFePO4 chemistry.

Some pricey LED monster flashlights use Li-ion 18650 small round bats which have their
own special lithium charger - but the bats last forever. This will be the flashlight pair
to look for....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ebb

Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.
Have heard that drastically reduces lumens.

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ebb I was able to get replacement clear glass domes from Jim Reineck for our original fixtures. I also had to replace the part where the electrical wire ties into the fixture and he was able to provide those parts to me also.


Here is the link to his website..........


http://bronzeblocks.com/


Here are how the new LED bulbs look in the old fixtures.

Nice looking lights!

>Their navlights look tidy, streamlined.... and they say will do 2NM, or more.
> Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.

Since LEDs have good color purity, there is not much of a point to using colored lenses. Colored lenses only reduce the intensity while performing no function.

What you can not do is project a white LED through a red or green lens and expect to get much colored light out. LED lights are "non black-body light sources". An incandescent lamp - which is a black-body source - projects light from a very hot filament, and it's spectral characteristics are spread out over a wide range of colors. So it behaves like a black object (body) heated to a specific temperature (called the color temperature) measured in degrees kelvin (degrees Celsius above absolute zero). The hotter it is, the more blue light is emits. An incandescent filament at 3,000 degrees kelvin produces a little blue light, more green, lots of red, and even more infrared (which is wasted energy). Since an incandescent produces light across the entire visual spectrum, you can filter it to one color. LEDs, even white LEDs, don't have an even spread of colors, and although they may appear to be a mix of all colors (white), they actually have sharp peaks and valleys in their spectrum. When the "white" LED light is passed through a colored filter, only a tiny percentage of the light of one color will pass through. Filtering a white LED to produce the same amount of green or red light may require more power than an incandescent lamp - negating the whole point of using LEDs.