Oh come on! All you association members over there on the left coast, and not one digital camera amongst the lot of you???
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Oh come on! All you association members over there on the left coast, and not one digital camera amongst the lot of you???
Didgital what? We ain't got no stinkun........
Actually I have a Canon Powershot to use now, but I'm still trying to figure out how to wind it up?
Wonderful meeting Tim, and he's OK with Indian cuisine. Continental chap. He's the guy that scored 'Che' from Adam.
Not sure what he's up to, but he may be wanting to do some custom on her.
Talking bout some serious trailer cruising.
Tim came by to pickup up Little Gull's tiller fitting to compare with Che's which is in the water and sailing. When he brought it back he said he was glad he compared the two.
Seems the rudderhead on his shaft is wider. It looks similar, but obviously is a different pattern.
Makes me wonder if Che is unique and has had a DFO change over, or if Pearson changed the pattern sometimes on Ariels and Commanders? As Admiral Bill points out, there were/are a number of 1" shafts out there in different class boats.
For instance: Tritons, both East Coast and West Coast, being larger and heavier may have had beefier rudder fittings. One of them may have graduated to Che. Or half of one of them. Che's problem is, as we have seen in Tim's post, that the tiller half of the fitting - the tillerhead - is missing.
A strong feature of the rudder fitting common to the Ariel (I assume) is that the hinged pieces are essentially a tight machined fit, which cancels play in the parts.
The Edson nickel plated backup I have is much sloppier than the old Pearson clunker - even after four decades of continual use and abuse. From that standpoint alone, even though the still available Edson 1" rudder fitting is WAY prettier, I would not recommend it as an upgrade or substitute for the A/C.
Imco as usual.
I'm starting a collection so we can purchase a community digital camera for this forum's members. We will mail it to those we feel are not posting enough pictures. Included will be a detailed description explaining how to use it and what constitutes a "good shot". When we are satisfied with the amount of pictures taken and posted, you will be notified as to who to send the camera to next. Who's with me? :D
It was a great day for a photo shoot at the San Rafael Yacht Harbor – Sunny with temps in the low 70's. Ebb had the “building” housing the Little Gull open when we arrived. Here’s a challenge; find the boat in this view . . .:confused:
It’s been some time since we last visited Little Gull, and although there is progress, it’s more subtle than before. The "big" visual change is the terrific topsides paint job. The finish is so mirror like that the ground clutter is reflected in the transom. Multiple coats were sprayed on to build up the finish, to the point that you can feel a significant ridge between the topside white and the water line bronze.
Here’s the water line taped onto the hull using the “paint can and string” method. The bits of blue tape represent original lines and, well Ebb will need to explain.
Moving to the cockpit . . . Here’s Ebb's latest creation – a "Stand Up Tiller." With all that arc, it will be possible to steer while standing without raising the tiller handle. :cool:
Here’s another project. Enlarging the coamings to provide better back support (and less water in the cockpit). This project is still in the engineering phase and the coaming displayed is actually a piece of hardwood veneer being used for visual reference. The coaming height at the forward (cabin) end is abut four inches higher than the original.
Next up (literally) is the famous Bboorreeggaarrdd Dodger. Actually, it’s more like the windshield system on a ‘57 Oldsmobile convertible! And, about as tough, as this very heavy duty structure will be bolted to the cabin for added strength.
From the back side, you can see the location for the steering compass below the center lite (which will open for added ventilation). All the openings will be filled with Lexan lites.
[Note too, the sea hood covering the main hatch, making for added protection from blue water waves.]
Speaking of port lights, Ebb experimented with shaping Lexan using his kitchen oven. From a distance, the results appear acceptable. Close up, however, you notice a few odd wiggles in the middle and some crazing at the end where the oven's fan was blowing on the material. Ebb has since found someone to create the proper curves . . . :o
Work below on Little Gull is plagued by choosing between too many good ideas:eek: At this point, the plan is to have a small dinning table on the starboard side, along with various cabinets, seating and whatever . . .
Oh yes, and the chrome rings up forward are the access to the tanks.
Here's the new electrical panel . . . :eek:
Here is Ebb's 20 pound aluminum bow sprit. Unfortunately, the photo is limited by the bucket of clamps, which is balancing the sprit to the deck, and the bow being up against the fence in front of the "boat house."
As we were preparing to leave for lunch, Ebb got a call from the plantation and had to zip back to the "office."
Before he ran, we extracted a commitment that he would deliver more progress more sooner than his latest performance. His fans are waiting . . . ;)
As usual...the 'Ebb-myster' delivers. Combo of designer-craftsman-engineer-dreamer and poet.Looks great!! Keep at it...and not so long between pics;)
Outstanding photo work Bill, and of course Ebb it goes without saying you are an inspiration.
This is a fun project to keep tabs on. Keep it up Ebb!
Beautiful work Ebb!
That dodger is gonna be one strong piece of gear! I think the compass is going to be a joy to use there, I was musing about just that placement.... but could not visualize it... you sure did.
I think the higher combing boards will work nicely. They would look out of proportion on my boat, but as I picture Little Gull's overall profile I think they will balance nicely... and sure be nice for leaning against.
Once again, first rate stuff going on... I too look forward to seeing the next update.
SAW-WEEET! Damn! I'll trade right now. Personaly, I can not wait to see a full exterior shot of Little Gull. Everything is finally starting to mesh and tie together and all the nuggets Ebb has given us in words over time are shinning bright.
Like for instance, the topsides...hubba-hubba. The high riding bottom paint and raised boot stripe...:D
And the coamings. I know that's a touchy subject for some folks out there. But I'll side with Tim Lackey there, (paraphrasing here) do what you feel will make the boat better serve your needs without compromising safety/integrity. Offshore sailors repeatedly state a safe, dry cockpit is a must. I think Ebb's taller coamings and outboard hutch will do just that.
That windscreen is the scource of a lot of envy in this camp! It fits. I mean it really fits. Great lines, great shape, great concept. Hey Ebb, how did you get the recess cut in for the Lexan? The compass brace? Art. There, I said it! As fine a line as I have seen on any boat.
Cant wait to see the finished bow sprit. Are the anchors going to hang there? Attachment for a cruising geniker? Similar shape for the bow pulpit?
Really like what we can see of the interior so far. That is the only fall back of these boats, you just have more ideas than room. Can't possibly fit them all in or blend them all together. But, you know how I feel about curves!:cool:
Dig the work, Ebb. As usual, you inspire and awe me with your craftsmanship. I sincerely look forward to the day I may be fortunate enough to meet you on the water. Hats off to you.
Have a archaeologist/writer daughter somewhere on the planet.
But you guys is family.
"Subtle progress." Bill is being nice, I've been remiss, or missing at the boat. Maybe like C'Pete I really want to 'only work on the boat in April and May.'
310) Following faint remnants of what looked like an old factory incised line led to this apparent anomaly evident in Bill's shots.
What line it is/was
certainly was the last line up I could find on both sides of the hull - but it had no sheer or bend in it that I could see.
And therefore I assumed it was NOT the top of the boot. I mean would the factory INCISE the boot stripe on a boat?
After this horse had left the barn (Awlgripping the topsides) I went back to Alberg's drawing board (pg 144 Manual)
The long blue tape delineates a compromise waterline. It leaves the extraordinary width in the bow between the bottom of the topsides I chose and the apparent new raised waterline. What a shock!
(338's bronze bottom is not intended to leach copper - at least I hope not! I added copper powder to a number of epoxy barrier coats and while it may help deter growths the intent is now to paint on regular anti-foul before launch. I have planned that the boot-top was to be painted on the bronze barrier.)
The short tape tics on the centertline show the 'designed line' and the 'raised waterline.' The long tape is my 'adjusted compromise' line. Load line? Anomalies are unsolvable problems.
My brain is tired of figuring out what the hell is going on with these waterline!
311) 3rd shot of series shows the huge sweep of the boot-top as it meets the CloudWhite topsides. Seven inch kick to the boot! The curvey sweep is a trick of perspective. The line actually is eyeball straight - and that was the reason I choose to accept it as a water line. Assume is the mother of all f...ups.
Note the two tape-tics again: the lower one is Alberg, next up the original bottom of his drawn boot-top. On top of that would be the master's boot-top sweep. The official width of this boot stripe changes on different renditions in the Manual. But the widest stripe may be on the sail plan (pg 146) - and the 'Freeboard' drawing of the Commander (pg 149b) The present owner's compromise waterline is the long tape. What color for this boot? I'm thinking cloud white!
312) Coamings. We have progressed beyond this stage . The mahogany has been surfaced out of rough-sawn stock, and accurate pine patterns created to transfer lines to the new coamings.
Blue tape on port coaming block is a lower-to line.
The cabin sides took a bit of filling/fairing to get them FLAT for the taller blocks as the pint-sized blocks cinched up on the hollow cabin sides caused them to be considerably caved inward. Hand holding the original doorskin 'try' pattern for Bill to show you what the new coamings might look like. Pretty tall, huh!
314) This hatch garage is meant to be removable while the dodger remains in place. Toyed with the idea of having a dorade inspired vent in front of where the sliding hatch stops inside. Center hole under the hood could enter the cabin with air supplied by cowls mounted directly on the hood near the lower corners.
2nd shot shows a molded overlap that will be glued to the hood. Not intended to be caulked, but any water that gets in should come back out through weepholes. Right.
3rd shot. Side lights in dodger should provide good visibility forward while sitting.
Waterways for the compainionway slide are original but made taller because of the redesign. (Those slots on the side of the opening.) The slide will be flat carbonate with no side turndowns like the original hatch. But glue-on drip-strips may be added on the underside of the plastic for anti-drip insurance.
Would have liked the Plastimo 130 compass mount a bit higher off the top of the slide. The middle light in the dodger is planned to be opening.
316) Where's the bunk?
317) Spoiled by this wide 2X4 ladder over the remodel years. Top step is about where the kitchen counter is going - angled away from access to the q-berth stowage area.
Promise to put up and shut up!;)
OK, referring to post 307Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
Sent a full sized poster paper pattern (Ebb's Cobra Tiller) to H&L while conferring with the receptionist by telephone. I assumed the shop would match the curve to existing molds, but got a call back saying the unfinished tiller would cost including shipping $77.82.
Well, that's not bad for handmade, so I said, Sure. She called back and made some adjustment to the price. I asked her what pattern it was. She said it was related to some (numbers she assumed I had reference to..) but that it was a custom job. Had to snail mail the check.
Haven't got the tiller yet but it's only been 2 weeks. 7/30/08
Referring to post 309.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
I, ahh h h, hope that 'heavy duty' is correct for the 'wrap around wind shield' dodger piece - BUT it is not strictly very heavy - made as it is with fiberglass laminations and pvc foam - with rather generous negative weight holes cut out for the carbonate lights. What might be considered too heavy is the sea hood which has the original companionway sliding hatch laminated into it for good luck - and is solid frp.
...Referring to 306Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill
This Tim Lackey method of transferring a dead straight line to a boat is perfect for tight confines as is evident here. The tent provided the uprights for clamping the horizontal reference planks. ( a kind of engineered pine - made-up of pieces and strips glued together and primed flat beige. S3S, KD and very stable. Good pattern wood )
Tim's system would like a wider foot print to be able to move the string further out to touch more stops on the mid part of the hull for ease of marking.
Putting a straight line on the hull requires that the boat is dead level port and starboard. Not necessary for the fore and aft. So, the approximately 12' long 1" thick and 6" wide boards were clamped dead level like the boat onto tent poles at the required boat waterline, front and back.
Took measurements off our original plans and then onto the boat with story sticks. Made up yellow nylon string with gallon weights at each end and draped them over the boards, a set on each side. Made up string and cans for both sides so that the waterline could be compared. And checked against the original paint job it was: Close Enough.
Tight confines require that mid girth of the hull is located and the string securely taped to the boat in that exact spot and height. 3 pieces of immobilizing blue tape. Weighting the nylon string with gallon cans of resin (not sure that the house paint Tim uses is fully copasetic for this in-your-face left coast operation) makes it bar taut and straight as a laser. You semi lift the can to move it back and forth on the beam or you might saw through the string.
One end of the boat at a time is done from the mid-point. Half of the string remains unmoved as a constant reference. If a can is moved too close to the hull the curve of the bilge bows the string down. Have to be careful to just kiss the hull and lock it in place each time with a piece of tape. Worked out every 8" or so. The process requires constant sighting along the straight part of the line going to the opposite board and visually 'dragging' the straight half part of the string back where the string is being tacked to the hull. Go back to these single tapes and micro-readjust until a waterline reveals itself. Time consuming, exacting, tedious - and satisfying. Description of process also tedious. Sorry.
Marked the hull with a very fine line sharpie along the string between the tapes.
In other words that whole section of waterline from the middle of the boat to either end is taped to the hull. Have lunch, Take a walk. Come back, take another look, move up and down with your eye using the straight part of the string AND the far horizontal as datum, trying mentally to bring it around the curve. It is pretty easy to introduce a downward bend in line - you have to keep picking up on the dead straight datums. Then mark along the top of the string with the sharpie.
After marking, remove the tape pieces - but NOT the X'ed center - and move the can back to parallel (about 42" out from the center - which of course you had to guess at). Check the string is absolutely straight. Then tackle the other half of the boat using the straight part of the string for sighting. Sight and tape the full length from the center to an end. That weight-can on the side you are moving and marking will be way over the other side of the center point of the plank as you tape the last 8" stations at the bow or stern. Hold the string, which doesn't like being there, with a squeeze clamp. Mark the top of the string between the tape strips with the can squeeze-clamped way over.
Later when the side was sharpied end to end, the blue tape stripe was added on the new waterline for a welcome visual reward,
That's one way.
There is real magic in getting a straight line on a boat. I'd guess 98% of the boats coming into the yard have crooked waterlines. I've seen crooked boot tops on boats at the boat show!
Tim, I know, did it a lot easier, but then he had all of Maine to do it in,
Little Gull has but a tight little funky plastic garage in a San Rafael parking lot. It works surprisingly well where a laser can't go. Thanks Senor Tim! - enjoy your writing and tips and consummate skill!
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Kidding aside, Tim Lackey's Triton 381 website is the best resource there is for a plastic classic revamp. And he has kept it available for everyone.
He's Casey at the bat for Carl Alberg / Pearson boats. He is the only one who chronicles the renovation game inning by inning, play by play.
For square-one amateurs he's the king of boat projects. He out-caseys Don Casey on specifics. His public project logs are classics that stand far above everybody else's blogs on any boat subject.
Finding information about projects and rebuilding a plastic boat is time consuming and mostly disappointing. I've come to hate forums.
Tim has a literary style that lifts a chore into an art form.
This amateur has constantly been thwarted by incomplete information, lack of pictures/close-ups, and questionable methods. That is why I go on too long on details - frustration.
How-to books are always disappointing to me. They are information 7-11's. On the internet Tim is the best friend/instructor any amateur boat restorer can have... looking over his shoulder.
Well lookit that - WOW!!!
A white mirror, the hull! A light, but what should be *incredibly* strong 'sprit (in particular, I like how it'll be anchored to the deck near the edges...)! Curvy-cornered cabinetry, a la TonyG, and just like it should be for a boat going to sea!
That dodger, the lines, the shape and curves - very reminiscent of a Golden Age of Flight, classic airplane windshield - awesome!
Almost like you could have a sliding-canopy bimini/cockpit cover to lean out of while wearing a leather helmet with goggles, silk scarf streaming aft in the wind as you and Little Gull beat to weather! :D
(Which was my plan exactly, so now it's back to the drawing board...) ;):p
Berth? Looks like you have the room to sling a double hammock down there!!! :D
Great work there, sir, and lots of it! Can't wait to see your interior come together more, wondering what delights *that* will reveal...
This is what I resembled when I saw these new pics...
BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE AT YOUR PERIL.
To make these coaming corner posts each side required 3 pieces of 1 1/2" x 6" x 15" to be glued up into a single block of approx 4 1/2" X 6".
There are not many wood glues available for exposed exterior wood pieces. The only wood glue we can truly depend on is Resorcinol.
It is an formaldehyde powder/purple resin mix that is impervious to everything when bonded including water immersion and delamination. It needs careful measuring, controlled timing, controlled temperature, and extreme clamping to be successful. it leaves a prominent dark purple glue line. Not something desirable on a mahogany glue-up for the coaming posts at the cabin. So I thought!
Another is powdered urea-formaldehyde 'plastic resin' glue, mostly tan colored and activated by mixing with water.
It is water resistant, will not take immersion. But it leaves a lighter colored or no line at all and is often used for wood masts, spars and laminated tillers. It also requires pressure while curing. It is a little more forgiving with humidity and temperature. Generally these glues have trouble setting under 60 degrees ambient.
I would describe these glues as producing a chemical bond with the wood - while the next choice produces a mechanical bond. That is if it's not T-88.
The third choice is epoxy adhesive. My bloody choice. I have used Smith's 2-part Allwood and Tropical epoxy for years without failure. It says it will glue oily woods such as teak - and it does. T-88 makes the same claim. Laminates are put together with moderate pressure so that the glue does not all get squeezed out to starve the joint. Good epoxy is even more forgiving of humidity and ambient temperature. It's the only choice when the project temp is below 65degrees.
Structural epoxies are not laminating epoxies which are usually runny and engineered for fabric wet-out. Adhesive epoxies are stiffer, thicker, and smell mildly of toast and ammonia. Guess they are low VOC, nearly 100% solids, and are not waterbourne.
It was time to try a fresh system so I ordered SYSTEM THREE T-88 STRUCTURAL EPOXY ADHESIVE.
www.systemthree.com
It mixes just like Smiths Tropical Wood Epoxy: it is a viscous material that spreads easily because it kind of likes to hold together. Quite different than laminating epoxy which flows apart like pancake syrup. On the freshly milled mahogany there seemed to be quick wet-out . The glue was applied liberally with a toothed spatula to both sides of each joint. No holidays. The pieces were smooched together and squared up with clamps at right angle to the glue line and weight was put on top. Can't remember what weight but might have been tool boxes. The result IS a consistent 1/3mm glue line.....
DISASTER!!!
The coaming blocks have failed.
THE GLUE LINE IS PULLING APART
Barely noticeable across the top end grain the two glue lines are opening. So far only the wider top of the post is coming apart.
Have not yet pried at the joints. The wood may be moving because of hot weather and drying winds - the pieces have not spent time in the sun. The WOOD at the joints is not splitting -
just the GLUE is letting go!
The end grain of the wood is totally tight, not the slightest crack.
The whole point of this adhesive is to hold the wood pieces TOGETHER
NO MATTER WHAT.
DON'T BUY SYSTEM THREE T-88.
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You have to take my word on this one.
I've worked epoxies for decades.
Was extra careful with this project. Mah baby.
No solvents were used to prep the wood surfaces.
The mahogany has been covered and stickered dry and air dried for 30 plus years.
Honduras is not known as a problem wood to glue.
Freshly planed, milled, toothed for epoxy to grip.
The pieces were sequentially stacked as cut.
The two-part T-88 carefully measured, carefully mixed.
The method used is to turn the two parts together on a square of acrylic sheet with a two inch spatula/knife. Excellent and thorough.
The glue was not mixed in a cup.
After mixing it was allowed to rest for 1/2 hour.
Then applied to room temperature mahogany.
and the pieces smooched together wet on wet.
What did I miss?
As far as I'm concerned this is a failure of
:eek: S Y S T E M T H R E E .:eek:
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Good Cod, and I just got started using their waterbourne LPU in the cabin.
And I thought also for the coach roof outside.... maybe it's garbage too?.....
T-88 is probably a good enough glue.
It is that too much was asked of it.
There just isn't enough glue to wood mass.
Guess it would work better if multiple layers of mahogany were laminated together - say 1/2" thick planks in a stack.
More glue area might minimize or almost stop the wood's ability to move.
Could say that this epoxy has limits as a wood adhesive.
There is also the possibility that too much of the wet of the glue was absorbed into the dry wood. Don't know if this can happen with this kind of glue. Penetrating surfaces would be a plus and increase the bond. No? Providing more tooth by scouring the surfaces on mating pieces might have created too much more surface area for the adhesive.
In gluing large pieces - much like biscuits or dowels are used in panel and table top edge gluing - I could have worked in three or four splines along each glue face by cutting matching 1/4" grooves and adding 1/4" splines that would have increased the glue area and maybe helped to stabilize the large pieces I felt I had to use.
The splines would have to be vertical grained. If the grain of the spline is the same as the work then the relatively thin strips might split. I would have to make up bread-slice pieces with short grain 90 degrees to the work.
An easier substitute are 1/4" 5ply Meranti Aquaply strips. 1/4" Meranti made overseas is often slightly thinner 6mm, thereby giving epoxy some groovin room.
Major pieces that these corner posts are will require they be made over again. BUMMER. I would redo them as described. (See later post.)
As a last harrah, mechanical fastenings could be tried to pin the damned post together. But I know the wood will win and delaminate in Tahiti.
Yet one more desperate idea:
Numerous holes could be drilled into the three pieces from the inside face and a bunch of mahogany dowel pins glued in.*
It's a chancey proposition because the main glue-up now has to be considered a secondary and failing fastening - and the dowel-pin quick fix the primary.
So we'll have to think this through. Wood dowels look good at the moment because the all important lags - that will hold the corners to the cabin - are going to go thru some of them.
(I'm going to try this method.)
A good dunking in penetrating epoxy. (for ME - this sucker is falling apart!)
And 20 coats of varnish.
Have tossed the T-88 because the stuff can't be trusted..... garbage.
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* found honduras m. dowels on the net at Constantine's Wood Center. If they fit tight in the drilled holes I'll use the tan glue and have a saw cut relief the length of each dowel pin so they can be driven in wet all the way.
Constantines has been in business for more than 200 years. How bout that!
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What gets me is that I might have missed an important step - using a new product.
However T-88 is a recognizable adhesive type that I've worked with for decades from one manufacturer in particular, but a few others as well.
What really gets me is that this failure trivializes the effort. It could have been something structurally more important - like a spar, bowsprit, boomkin, window or hatch - that could fall apart at a bad time - without warning.
If the proportion of wood mass to glue area was too much - and the glue-up began moving - then at least the adhesive should have pulled wood off the glued faces. Only the glue is cracking as the wood is moving (the tiniest bit).
Mike, who runs the estate shop here, recalls that in some System Three literature there is a suggestion that prior to using T-88 Adhesive a System Three penetrating epoxy should be used to prime the wood to be glued.
This not correct.
For all intents the failure of the glue actually has the look of a starved joint.
Even though we have a requisite glue line.
A Technical Data Sheet for T-88 states:
(no mention of wood moisture content)
"Glue line thickness is not critical and clamping is not necessary...
"Oak is a highly porous wood with a strong tendency to absorb resin and yield starved joints of substandard strength. Preferred practice is to apply a liberal coat to both surfaces and without mating allow the parts to stand open for 30-45 minutes. Dull spots indicate complete absorption and should be touched up... then assembled and clamped with minimal pressure - just enough to ensure contact. Or the oak can be presealed with a thin coat on both mating surfaces and cured separately, then sand lightly, apply fresh T-88 and join lightly."
Teak surfaces require vigourous wiping with lacquer thinner and while still moist dried with rag. Repeat if the surfaces don't have a whitish color "indicating the extraction of surface oil."
My ancient dry honduras mahogany could be considered porous, I suppose.
I did not do the 1/2 hour open time to see if absorption was happening. However, there arguably was plenty of glue applied to both surfaces and a mild pressure was continuously applied while hardening that might have closed nano gaps caused by liquid being absorped by the wood. The block when dry had an even glue line all round. This indicates no glueless areas caused by absorption. Wrong.
The problem starts to be noticed at the large endgrain area (the top of the post) and there are indications (from the cutoff wedge pieces used outside to prop the mast) that the wood pulls away evenly all along the glueline.
Smith & Co.'s Tropical Hardwood Epoxy (Jamestown) requires NO PRETREATMENT to stick any kind of wood together permanently. From Lignum Vitae to Teak to Mahogany.
You have to know something about the glue. End-grain gluing is ALWAYS a problem with any glue. This is not end grain gluing but matched flat to flat grain. But Smith's doesn't need a crutch.
Now, to be absolutely sure we would need a fair comparison in a second post glued up with Smith's Tropical.
SO NOW, LET'S OPEN UP THE JOINT:
I forced a chunk of the laminate apart on one of the cut-offs with a stiff-blade putty knife.. These are the large 'waste' pieces now disintegrating full time in the sun. The wood has 100% pulled away from the joint line. Yet the glue did not want to let go right away.
....Inside the mating surfaces show visually and by feel that the adhesive was evenly distributed on both surfaces. But one surface shows the layer of glue - the mating surface shows no sign of adhesion!
The only conclusion is that the glue was widely absorbed on one side leaving few areas of connection.
The glue line turns out is essentially a figment.
Even though there is a apparent visual line of glue
one side or the other side seems to have let go!
There is no solid connection of wood to glue to wood except one small area WHERE THE WOOD RIPPED OFF FROM THE MATING SIDE. Quite odd.
This could be a lack of experience with both materials on my part. We've had a hot summer here and the wood is very dry and has very low moisture content. I didn't put a meter on it.
Taking the 15X loupe (Lee Valley) to the glue lines shows some lines 'sticking' intermittently to one or other side. While other lines have separated a complete length from one side.
I remember when the T-88 was mixed it didn't feel like the thick body of Smith's epoxy I'm used to.
I don't believe the Smith's Tropical epoxy could have just disappeared like the T-88 did.
Why one identical mating surface accepting glue and not the other?
Why one surface appearing not absorbed (evident layer of glue) and the opposite surface starved? Insane. These are identical sequential pieces.
Because of the weirdness of T-88, my goof or not, I'm sticking to the other product I know and trust. I'm positive I could never force a Smith's joint apart with a PUTTY KNIFE.
Smith's CPES, a penetrating sealer, is not a recommended surface pre-treatment for Tropical Wood Epoxy.
To be absolutely fair, the pieces could be primed with thin epoxy and allowed to set. Then the block would be sanded and assembled and glued with structural epoxy. THis is probably the way I should have done them.
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THE FIX IS IN.
Mike suggests that with a wide thin resaw blade on the Laguna bandsaw we could easily cut along the glueline - ERASE THE JUNK ENTIRELY and then stick the block back together with another glue that has balls.
Minimal dimensional change.
Some cross dowels will be needed to key the blocks from sliding when gluing. I'll drill those in before separating the blocks. Next time: RESORCINOL.
Plastic Resin (urea-formaldehyde) will not survive soaking or swell/shrink heat/cold cycles of the coaming post environment. Epoxy has an elevated temp inadequacies and similar problem with high moisture or wet that coaming posts are subject to. Resorcinol is the ONLY glue for the job. R. is the ONLY glue that survives BOILING tests.
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Type into your search engine APPENDIX C SUPERIOR ADHESIVES FOR THE MILLENIUM. This is Larry Pardey's condemnation of epoxy and its major purveyor's. It's a great article, from a book whose title escapes me. A professional woodworker's perspective. Epoxy has its place in layup, but never as a wood glue. The tropics will destroy epoxy in a couple seasons. Really can't use it in any exterior wood glue up. Guess I got lucky!
Ebb....I just spent about an hour going through your pics. Hope to steal a few ideas from you.As I looked at the date of the last ones I realized..we need an update More pics please :D
I drove by Little gull last Sunday, and if I had my camera I would taken some pics, because I have been thinking the same thing.
Back on page 11, Bill showed us Ebb's "engineering table". Wonder if the lack of updates indicates too much time at the table and not enough on lil gull ? ;-) Only teasing Ebb....you are creating a masterpeace...extremely well thought out and engineered. Now...about those updates ........
As I walked by something caught my eye and I stopped.
A crane fly was caught in a spider's web
It furiously tried to get untangled, beating its wings, bouncing rhythmically in air.
Each time the spider approached the fly became more frantic making the spider back off a little.
The crane fly was more than twice the size of its captor.
It seemed to be tiring. The bouncing stopped.
The fly quietly and deliberately used a free leg to strip an invisible sticky thread from a fouled leg as the spider came closer and closer.
Just as the spider was ready to pounce the leg came free!
But the fly was still caught, it helicoptered its wings again and broke away,
landing close by, seeming to shiver.
The spider remained suspended and still poised to wrap up the catch of a lifetime.
Watching the drama, I thought about helping the flier get loose from the trapper.
Wondered if that would change the course of the universe.
I was sure the fly wasn't going to make it.:D
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Making some progress inside.
Photo soon?
Ebb
just want to say wow,
like to see more pics, and just amazed
Tim
Ebb has submitted a number of photos for review and approval for publication by the editors :rolleyes: The editors take no responsibility, liability or any other 'ability' for that which follows . . . :D
The ketchup slide box starts as a simple stitch-n-glue closed box
Easy Chair with side locker
Easy Chair in foreground with locker and slide box. Background shows galley without sink counter - sliding panel cupboard.
Starboard dinette lockers with lift lids. Insulated hull with vinyl fabric. Uncovered Ensolite insulation glued in on top of hull. Top of photo is the unfinished cabin side hand rail.
Port side, left corner of foto is galley without sink - and easy chair.
Starboard side, dinette without hinged table.
Stub bulkheads glue up for cabin furniture. Easy Chair.
Interior hand rail inserts glued thru cabin side.
Compression beam being bolted thru the deck. Compression beam series of thru-deck bronze bolts. Center three go thru previously epoxy and Xmatt reconstruction directly under mast. Outer bolts pass thru composite balsa core with classic hockey-puck treatment - oversized holes and undercut skin. The original unglued support beam was locked in place with only two #16 bronze screws driven thru the circular mast-step into the beam under balsa-cored deck.
EDIT (11/28/11)
This date reference doesn't have any significance, except to record that the cupboard sliding door locker at #336 - pg17 on this thread
has an 'how-it-was-made' confession over at TonyG's Gallery: Fruits Of My Labor - pg25 - #494.
Clarification.
Photo at #341. Those red thingies are right angle pieces of fiberglass ("electrical grade") material from McMasterCarr.*
The bottom flange sticks out on the inside of the cabin and a flat piece of the same material is cut to the cabin curve from bulkhead to bulkhead and glued on top, tying them all together. What follows is one way of adding interior handrails without using thru-bolts.
They are not glued in when the photo was taken.
However the hollow between liner and cabin molding has been filled and the vertical sides chamfered. An inside the liner donut with a square hole.
When prepping / wetting out a clip for inserting into the hole, a cut-to-fit rectangular piece of glass is positioned like a scarf around the upright flange so that the fiberglass gets glued to inside of the liner when the clip is pushed into place.
Fiberglass tails are brought outside, pasted to the sides of the hole. Then the hole filled and flange buried. After setting, the filler was faired and pieces of fabric sanded away.
Interesting that the space is different in each hole between the cabin and the cabin liner.
The space gets wider (about 1/4' to 5/8") toward the rear of the cabin as witnessed through the progression of holes.
This converging space between liner and cabin is pretty equal port and starboard which would mean that the liner is centered pretty good in A338.
ALSO the further forward toward the mast the thicker the cabin sides are laminated. There is less apparent space separating cabin and liner.
Also, the molded curve of cabin into deck, right there at the deck where the Fein tool was used to cut in at deck level is very thick, very substantial and very hard.
Smoked at least FIVE K-blades! 20 bucks EACH.
After cutting the square holes and exposing the inside,
there is barely enough room to sort of prep the inner surfaces that have been waiting 40 years for this event. But imco it HAS to be done.
Since both cabin and liner were laid up in female molds we have to assume the last polyester resin coat put on in 1966 had wax in it so that it would cure hard.
This wasn't the place to use a solvent to kill any wax. So carpet-taped pieces of 40 grit sanding belt on the ends of doorskin strips were used to scratch things up inside best I could.
I've said this too many times:
imco FIRST priming surfaces with liquid epoxy that will be filled with thickened epoxy is essential for 'secondary' bonding to bond.
After priming - mop it up with a rag if it's really wet - SCRUB on some of the thickened stuff (toothbrush in this case) before actual filling to help get the old and the new to like each other even better.
Sides, top and bottom are filled with mishmash using flexible foam rod for dams. This is all done at the same time.....But you needn't do all the holes at the same time!
When hard, the holes were cleaned up (that's the stage in the photo at #341) and a slot cut in the liner through the bottom of the hole for the angle clip.
With the holes prepped for the second time the clips were inserted.
With the little piece of fiberglass bridle and the wedge shape of the second fill, can only hope they are solidly implanted and amalgamated with the cabin.
I use the best available LAMINATING epoxy almost exclusively - for everything. Structural projects like this stretches the intent of the epoxy, which is really to laminate fabric together. However, imco NON-BLUSHING good epoxy is good glue.**
The holes on the outside are disappeared now.
You'd never know all these words took place there.
Another set of right angle pieces will be glued under each projecting flange inside - upright and facing the cabin side. Just to make absolutely sure, will glue AND machine-screw the clips through the layers together.
Mahogany rails attach to the uprights.
A lot of weight will be put on this system at times.
It looks like grab rails over at the side like this will get used not only for trapeze work but handing the body in and out of the seats/berths. An adult will be able to negotiate the accommodation with a hand on each rail, arms out-stretched. I think there is more ERGO in the dynamic of having rails at this lower level.
We'll end up with closed channels under the windows. No other overhead rails are planned.
Dang, hope this all makes sense.
Haven't turned up another joker yet who's added railings this way.
BUT this is how aye did it - not how IT is done.
Critique appreciated:D
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*Hammer tested the strength of this red colored commercial polyester fiberglass angle and sheet. Also tested glue-ups. Looks like it's made with glass mat and perhaps pressed or rolled. Could be extruded. Epoxy glued pcs held and seems plenty strong. Angle material is 3/16" - the sheet exactly 1/8".
Smells sweet when cut, but not the usual styrene scent. Used lacquer thinner to remove wax or manufacturing residues and scoured surfaces before gluing. Could have/should have used TSP or a citrus remover.
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:mad:**If your MO working with epoxy in a renovation is to stop - let the epoxy set - and then go on to the next step which often requires gluing epoxy to epoxy - then blushing epoxy cannot be used in the type of work described above. Blushing epoxy requires washing grease off with detergent and warm water after every set.
Explain to me how that can be done in the method described above.
There is NO EXCUSE for a maker of epoxy in 2010 to sell you stuff that BLUSHES. OR has any SOLVENT in it.
And by that score it is IRRESPONSIBLE for that formulator or the VENDOR to sell you hardener with formaldehyde in it.
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The square holes in the side of the cabin and the slot the clips are inserted into were cut with a Fein Multimaster (sold to home owners). It comes with a dog-leg "E-Cut" blade which has small teeth on its leading edge and is able to plunge cut STRAIGHT into materials. I had to buy blades at a local hardware at about $60 in a three pack. If memory serves, used at least 6 blades to do the job. I think they were labeled 'bi-metal' but the old frp smoked them!!!
#342
I can tell you what I should have done with those four wide out bolts, maybe all six.
I could have dished-out the hockey-puck tops like we do for any hole repair.
Then epoxied two or three disks of fiberglass (widest diameter first) into each dish so that the edges of the new glass overlaps the venerable polyester deck.
Then redrilled the holes through for the 3/8" SB carriage bolts.
Tightened jam-nut and washer onto the new fiberglass.
(Note to self: Jam nut and washer measure 1/4" thick. Make sure nut can be covered with filler. Use 6-8OZ glass fabric for disks. Keep the dishing as close to the deck surface as possible - don't gouge too deep.)
Bolt ends get cut off with grinder right at the nut after assembly.
Everything fits perfect of course, nuts are JUST below the finished surface of the deck.
Then fill what remains of the dish by covering the nut with chopped-strand and epoxy and grind flat. Nothing shows after filling and fairing.
The fabric disks that lap the old deck hopefully engage the tough old cabin skin of the deck composite outside with the strongback inside.*
Nuts and washers are really on the 'outside' but just happen to be in a convenient dip that just happens to be filled in.
That's how I shou:odadunit
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* The composite has a top layer that seems to be about 3/16" to a 1/4" thick. Mid layer is 3/8" end-grain balsa. The inner layer (NOT the liner) is 1/16" or less in places. Estimate the composite generally to be 9/16" thick. The foredeck, where it was cut out for a Bomar, is exactly that. Haven't had the boat totally apart for investigation obviously, so this is general assumption - some places it's thicker.
OUT STANDING!!! Truley masterful designing and constrution, Ebb. You are really getting the most out of one of these 'smallish' hulls. Little Gull will be inspiration for a great many DIYers to come. Mark my words and just you wait and see!
The hand rails are a great design with a drip sill incorporated into a very stout and sleek form. Top notch woodwork waiting to go on yet I'd bet.
I, for one, am in LOVE with your diversion from the typical 'hamster home tube' interior when you included some angles and curves. And an easy chair! Man oh man you've got it right on the head. If no one else notices look at all of the space behind the backrest-nearly paralell to the hull. Or the undershot base that gives the feet somewhere else to go if they want. It's a fun journey to go back to page one and follow the progres you've crafted.
The emotions, Ebb, it's a privledge to experience your work and yet you make me feel pretty inadequate:eek: Well, keep it coming. I'll just have to toughen up.
While perusing some of the usual sites I ran across this photo that depicts the growing popularity of comfortable seating. I am speaking to Ebb's 'easy chair'... I'm calling shotgun!!
Man, that does look AT HOME, doesn't it?
Look at the space in that cabin! And that sweet little burner!
If anybody's noticed, littlegull's easychair (photo#338) will have to have a hinged half seat added.
But it'll swing back down to clear the aisle.
I'd like a bit of a bump more cushion (like Tony's photo shows) along the front of the seat to make our easychair a bit more posh.
This 'chair' (HAD to be renamed!) is built below the original settee level to allow my head - just barely - to lean back under the deck.
The Ariel cabin is so small that lighting a candle will take the chill off!:rolleyes:
Ebb - She's looking spectacular.
Q: Where are you sleeping at? Waaay earlier in the thread, you had an area to starboard, partly tucked under the cockpit seat, that was to function as a quarter berth - and which isn't shown in the latest photos - is that your slumber spot?
And after the past couple weeks, I have to tell you - it takes more than a candle! An oil-filled, radiator style heater is sufficient, however, for when temps get as low as down into the 20's. ;D
Hey Kurt, good to see you again.
Around the aisle at dinette seat and V-berth level is now rimmed with a brown snake of continuous mahogany cleat that will hold the usual filler boards that make berths out of seats. Cleats are 1/2" lower than surfaces to take the filler boards. I'm thinking, without testing yet, that cushions can be kept in their place with velcro without added fiddles.
At the moment it looks like the dinette will convert to the main single berth. The table will hinge up easily to be out of the way and three boards in a canvas sleeve can be pulled across the foot well. They will FOLD and house in the narrow space under the center side locker visible in starboard interior fotos. Not made yet.
The width of the sleeping area at the dinette seats will be tight for a big frame like mine - alterations are always possible. I'll have a canvas preventer on the open side. - which could add a couple more inches width.
The V-berth 'aisle' has the composter toilet. It will have a cushioned lid over head necessities at the forward bulkhead, And the cushioned back of the easy chair will be removable and used to top the wider half of the space up to the break. The whole V-berth aisle IS the head and we'll have a privacy curtain. That's the easy part.
The widest part of the aisle back to the galley is difficult at the moment to figure how to support boards to make the double wide option. But I restrained the builtins to one main sleeping level based on the V-berth height. Frame pieces to suspend the boards, the boards themselves and where to store them, and the configuration of the pads/cushions that will have to puzzle-piece together for sleeping on.... will just have to work themselves out! Are there any sea-specific upholstery gods to appeal to?
The head will be accessible by lifting the top(s) off.
The optional wall to wall double berthing will end at the galley at an awkward angle. But it will leave good standing access in the galley - and for climbing out and in the companionway.
The quarter berth, not lined yet with insulation and fabric cover is too small and too tight for me. You'll see in earlier fotos that it had to be stepped DOWN from the dinette seat level even to make partial knee bending possible.
It will be great for storage tho.
Maybe not great - as I still intend to seal off the starboard seat locker, leave the lid openable in the cockpit for a shallow tray. That means sail bags in the stern of the q-berth will disappear for years.
Access to the back from the interior will be a royal head banger!
Access to the head, while the bed is made up, is something I have considered much.
Compromise, compromise, compromise. One day, it'll get Perfect. Har. :)
I did a visual, to see what it would look like, posted below. Your choice of fabric color will likely be much better. :D
Kurt, THAT'S fantastic - how you do that?
So, from what Kurt has there, we can see how the double wide will work by extending a line down from the angled arm of the chair, thereby filling in that whole area, including the chair seat at the 'arms'. It would leave leg dangling room at the gallery to get up, dress, make tea, or climb out to the stern rail.
I guess if two were sleeping there, one would poke the other and get them to curl up while that mid cushion up front was removed for access to the composter.
It's a bit of a trip to imagine how this actually would work!
If it was a marina situation, I'd probably have a portapotti in the cockpit.
OR
The cockpit can be converted to a double under the stars or under a bimini and the whole downstairs left in its normal state for whatever ablutions are required in privacy.:rolleyes:
That would be preferable.
So at some point, and with some hopeful expectation, energy will be spent on getting that right.
The bimini option - with side curtains - adds a huge THREE-SEASON ROOM to an Ariel or Commander. And should be seriously considered in any small cruising boat remodel.
This versatility will also work for a couple with kid(s).
Ebb - I'm using GIMP for the imagery. As to the 'how', it isn't really hard, with a couple lil tricks, and a good image manipulation application:
1) Opened your/a photo image in GIMP. Added a transparent "Layer" on top of the image, and a second plain white Layer behind/below it. You can turn the visibility of any particular Layer on or off, whenever you want.
2) So the top Layer, imagine it as a sheet of clear acetate to draw on, with your photo as guidance. I drew on the outlines, and once I had them done,
3) I turned off visibility of that middle, photo Layer. That leaves just the clear top layer with some colored lines, showing against the white bottom Layer (...the only point in having the bottom, plain white Layer is to make it very easy to see the top Layer lines, when I have the photo 'invisible'). The colored lines have defined the 'cushion' shapes against the white background below.
4) Then, still on the top Layer, I selected the shapes inside the lines, and filled them in with color.
5) and, last - made your photo Layer visible again before saving. That's all it takes!
So, if I got it right with the extra area, your salon-as-a-bed :) will look like this, then:
You got that right, brother. With limited cabin space allready allocated to pulling double (if not triple) duty, any cockpit that allows you to fully recline has to be seriously considered as a berth. Undoubtedly it is an added expense to make a convertible cockpit that needs to be weighed against the benefits in some sort of cost/benefit ratio. Factor into that equation how frequently one may actually use it... But then, seriously, how cost effective is this 'boat stuff' when viewed with a strict monetary perspective? As far as I'm concerned, it is the easiest way to make a split-level home out of a Commander or Ariel.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebb
A big berth below for those rainy days or when you just wanna hang out seems like a real winner also. I keep thinking 'where are we going to store all these pillows?', but where there is a will there is a way.
apropos GIMP, Kurt, my daughter explained it to me.
She said I'd never be able to do it.
I think it'll be like tyrying to fly an airplane.
Hey Tony,
About that cockpit well conversion to sleeping
Wonder if aye will care what any cos'facta ratio was
when I'm flat on my back in the Tropics looking up at the stars.
I'll make some cockpit gratings strong enuf to span the well at seat level -
bring those electric BLUE KURT CUSHIONS up from below - and retrieve that last can of ginger ale from the cooler.....
and 'Here's To Ya!' the whole damn universe.
I SWEAR, that's all I want!
EVER
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check out www.youtube.com The Seventh Skol
great animation
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I know why they are laffing in picture 354...
He's just hit his head AGAIN on the cabin rail while leaning back!
Zactly!!! I sat on an old rickety dock every night while down in Belize just amazed by all of the stars dipping to the horizon while everyone else sat at a bar just like they did Stateside.:confused: It was never more clear that this boat is a portal to real life rather than some machine or posession as many unfortunate people view them. I like to think you can either live on a boat or live with it. I prefer the latter.Quote:
Originally Posted by ebb
I was thinking the same thing with the flooring grate resting on small risers in the footwell during the day and on cleats at night. It can't just be pretty-it's gotta pull double duty too. Wanna put a canvas liner in the footwell to have a bath every now and then too. What do you think about that?
I got a good price on what seemed like a huge roll of 200 Polar Tech fleece that produced 6 blankets.
Picking one blanket up folding it small standing made a tidy rectangular brick. With another stacked on top I asked the seamstress at the dry cleaners to makeup zippered bag/cases out of some bright printed PT fleece. What resulted are three firm but comfortable soft cushions, each with two blankets, that will decorate the dinette side.
Many cruisers seem to do versions of this. You can make up cushion shapes for sleeping bags, clothes, towels/rags, would think nearly everything, maybe even the laundry bag could be disguised as a cushion.
PolarTec (formally Malden Mills) seems to be perfect for a boat. Water falls out of it, drys quick. It is relatively warm when wet. It has a wonderful soft feel. It doesn't get pulled out of shape, so it is good for covers and cases. It comes in great cheerful colors. I won't buy any foreign fleece - you don't know what's in it, there might be outgassing of some sort, far east manufacturers have a history of poisoning products. True Polar Fleece is made from spun polyethylene NOT polyester blanket or work jacket liner. Chemically they are nearly the same.
But in a loft fabric the PT is way superior.
Mattress and sit cushions are a special situation in Littlegull. All flat surfaces have access panels and lid keepers that are not flat. The V-berths have access plates. Think that the 3/4" open 'horsehair' stuff* I've seen might make a good first layer.
It's intent is to get air circulation under mattress. It has to be a rugged material to stay springy under butt and body print. Haven't read about it recently.* On top of that a closed cell foam in a sunbrella type fabric will be used. Talking about double duty, That's major positive lifesaving flotation.
Closed cell foam tends to be firm, and it's too expensive to be very thick, but indeed where there is a will there is a way. Pillow, cushion, sleeping bag, blanket can all be used to soften a spartan pallet. This isn't the suburbs!
Seattle Fabrics, Inc, Outdoor & Recreational Fabrics seems to be a fantastic source for cargo netting, hydrostatic water repellent polyester (WeatherMAX 65), coated and uncoated nylon (Master Nylon), vinyl coated polyester and neoprene (coated mesh), and urethane coated ripstop tent material. I bought sample packs of each. They have Sunbrella and other rugged outdoor fabrics. What their prices are I haven't compared. But obviously they can provide appropriate fabric and thread (use Goretex thread with sunbrella) for any conceivable project.
Making a TUB LINER for the cockpit well seems simple enough. You'd have a tube sewn into the aft end of the liner for the tiller to slip into - to stretch out all the way in your tub - and to have four sides. You'll have difficulty making your choice - but a silver 4oz, 140 Denier with 1.5oz urethane coated Super K-Kote Ripstop, 60" wide, $9.50YD - would stuff into a small open-mesh sack. Might want heavier material. Don't know about soaking or having that many gallons of water. Yet with privacy curtains the basin might sub in as a SPA! I feel that a pullout shower hose would be my choice in the cockpit if I made electric hot water. That is very remote. This isn't the suburbs.
A good quality 4gal 'sun shower' can be filled from the tea kettle, hung from the boom, and a GI sitz wash in the unlined cockpit is how I see it.
Two bags full would be unparalleled luxury!:p
Managed to score a 2gal s.s. garden pump-up pressure sprayer. Too big to store easy, but we'll try it.
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*HYPERVENT
horsehair stuff is Hypervent Marine.com. Called them up because their website was not updated. It shows a black plastic wire mat material but refers to it as white. "Yes, we are in business." Asked the owner if buttloading was a problem as in a seat cushion where it is depressed in the same place all the time: "No memory, no problem, very tuff stuff." 39"W, $12 linear foot. Defender has it for $9.33 a foot by the yard.
Hypervent is made from Nylon 6, is 3/4" thick and comes with a scrim material on one side. This allows taping pieces together (indeed, hinging them) and perhaps incorporating hook and loop fastening. Haven't used it yet.
This stuff is NOT 'DryBunk' which is an absorbant foam underlayment that you have to drape on your lifelines to dry out - along with your sleeping bags.
Ebb,
Thanks again for the grand tour of Littlegull today. Rob and I are thoroughly impressed and inspired by the work you have done on Littlegull. The boat looks even better than the pictures in this thread. Thanks again also for the lead ballast! I will put them to good use on my Triton.
One thing I forgot is to bring a camera so that I can post the pictures to share with the other forum members but most of them are already documented here except the your more recent work, like the galley countertop. When the Alberg Group comes up next month I will remember to bring a camera.
Again great job! Keep up the good work.
Ray
Triton106
Blossom
Alameda, California
Thanks Ray,
It was a treat to discuss with you guys the changes and reasoning behind them.
See you at the San Francisco ALBERG Fleet Sunday meetings at Leila's Caffe in Berkeley.:cool:
(next meeting is May 9th 2010 at 9AM) Commanders and Arieleers, come on over, check it out.
Happy new years Ebb.
Hope your healthy,happy and are finding some boatyard time as well. There have been no recent posts here and with the new year comes a formal request for an update complete with pictures of Lil Gull. It has been far too long and as the saying goes..."inqiring minds want to know".
Take care Have fun
Thanks Frank,
Sometimes I feel like a boxer whose corner men are trying to get him to listen - stop the bleeding around his eyes - to send him back out against a superior opponent. That oponent in this case is Time.
And it's the last couple rounds before the lights go out and The Champ is declared the winner!
And I'm glad to have you and all the guys coaching in my corner.
Maybe we can beat this one? Hah!
First monthly Sunday breakfast meeting of the new year (2011) with the
Alberg Fleet of San Francisco.
One of the things we do at Cafe Leila is go round the table and report what's happening with the boat.
Brought a show and tell which was a not yet assembled lexan "pull board" for the two stacked Shurflo pumps that will live in LitGull's narrow sump. It proved productive. Got a bunch of tips from other narrow sump challenged owners and visited Mike's Triton in Brickyard Cove Richmond to see his bilge puimp set-up.
Hopefully I'll get it together soon and post some pics here.
Have a great productive year!
Could someone please PLEASE post pics of Little Gull before Captain Ebb sails off into the sunset?? Lots of promises, but no pics - zippo - in the last 2+ years!?? Come you guys out West, it's not like you're buried in snow or sumthin' and can't get to the boat! :)
Wow Mike, I am sorry.... I took some when I was out for a visit last... (?) november? I will see what I can do. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mbd
Much obliged Craig! Hope you took lots and lots! :rolleyes:
EBB, You are a true master. its funny how artists see things differently than other artists and you hear the phrase "it is what it is "but you you made your vessel what it should have been it truly is a labor of love and an obsession of a perfectionist . My hat is off to you sir you have done a beutiful job on her
Ebb, I have been quite impressed with your efforts. I especially was attracted to the new aft exiting cockpit drains. Could you elaborate a little more about them, pipe size, problems encountered,etc. I am currently embarking on that refit and could use any advice.
Thanks, Garry
Arion, Ariel #371, Jones Creek, Baltimore,MD
Because he told me about the pics back when he took them, and I have too been eagerly awaiting a viewing :), I have a mental image of Craig sitting at home, in the middle of a pile of pictures of "Little Gull", muttering:
"Mine, mine, yes they are all my pictures, my preciouses, yes, we can't be letting the Ariel site be seeings them, Nooooo, they gets the nasty ideas from Ebb and *steals* them, no, they are mines and Roses and ourses alone..."
http://www.faithandgeekery.com/wp-co.../07/gollum.jpg
:D :D :D
(Gollum image came from, interestingly enough, "faithandgeekery.com" :D )
Busted.
.... I have checked all 3 hard drives I have used since last November... and the 2 memory sticks. I have lots of pictures, many I took on that trip...
Lil Gull does not appear in any of them... Not sure what gives... ?
Sorry guys.
Craig, is really going to come down to money? Really?
These do require a photo for explanation. I'll see what I can do.
First of all, do you need deck level waterways off the boat along the sheer?
I put them in, three to a side (probably should have more) because litlgull now has an extended height toe rail.
This is a 'standup' toe rail like a bulwark rather than a CAP RAIL.
Caprails which are trim pieces you attach to the top of the existing molded toerail
are an addition you find on the Alberg Triton.
Cap rails on an Ariel would not imco raise the level enough to cause a water problem on deck.
Talking about taking water aboard and getting its weight off the deck pronto.
If you are adding something like the upright rail A-338 has, then this is what we did.
As I say I'll find some pixs.
Tony wanted to see thse scuppers close up. If I can't figure how to email them to him I'll snail them.
PreMADE SCUPPER LINER
BEFOR the wood rail was bolted on the toerail, the new scuppers were rough cut out of the existing molded fiberglass toerail.
Shocking!!! When you do this you definitely are opening up the boat, you can see right in. Inside you can see right out!
You have ofcourse a model of what you are doing - so if the scuppers slant as they do on litlgull, cut the toe with that in mind as close as you can.
(I'd first make and have to hand the scupper liner/shell. Not sliced yet.)
Sawsall the toerail with a stiff small tooth bimetal blade fot the down cuts. For the cut along the deckline, a jig saw with a straight cut small tooth bimetal (hacksaw type blade) is also good.]
If you have big curved corrners in your scupper like litlgull's no need to duplicate that in your rough-out. Thickened epoxy.
And you can measure just how wide you have to have your new scupper liner chunks. (At least two inches because of the toerail to deck cove. At deck level)
Previously I had made a nice full rounded edge mold of some length - say two feet, always make more!
It's a very smooth ciabatta or bagette shape about 1 1/2" tall and about 4" wide.
Only the edges on one flat side needs the router with a big roundover bit treatment.
When ready to make up the fiberglass liner put the prepared form rounded side up on a riser (less wide than the form) so that you can easyly tightly wrap it on top and sides. Staples, tape to the riser.
If you cover the curved 'bottom' and the sides with 1/8" lay-up of fiberglass, you'd probably never get the glass off the mold. Even with your 'mold release': seran wrap or mylar.
So the mold form is made with three equal width pieces running the length of the mold. When done you knock the center piece out and the form collapses. Obviously the three piece form is not glued together.
The inside of the fiberglass crust you make will be nice and smooth.
You have layed the glass up on seran wrap which epoxy won't stick to. Using the thicker mylar film will give you an incredibly glassy surface. Epoxy doesn't stick to mylar.
You'll be able to use the form again, many times.
These scuppers go on the boat OPEN side UP.
You won't cut them at 90 degrees because you want the scuppers to slant aft.
The scuppers won't scoop when your rail is in the water that way. And it looks cool. (25 to 30 degrees.)
You cut the crusts oversize and trim them to fit the original toerail profile after you've glued or tacked the pieces in.
You will have 'rough cut' your toerail cut outs into the boat so they are exactly at deck level.
When you position the scupper liner it will be epoxied in so that the thickness of the lay up is above deck level 1/8". Or the thickness of the scupper shell.
This means that big water will go overboard just fine, and the morning dew will collect and descend the thru-deck pipe scupper that Pearson put in just for that purpose (if your A/C has that feature) but that tiny 1/8" rise keeps it from dribbling and staining the topsides. That's the theory.
After glue in wipe the globs and squeeze out away with alcohol/paper towels.. It will make it easier to carve the oversized liner back to the original toerail profile with your dremel and carbide burrs.?
Any imperfections can be filled with fairing compound.*
Photos show a very clean look to the alteration. The backward slant of the scuppers are all exactly the same. Since that show surface (the inside of the shell) was never worked on and is the same as all the others and pristine.
Your caprail or toerail extension bridges the scuppers - so you will have remember to varnish underneath.
You may feel that you should reinforce the scupper liners from underneath with added strips of X-matt. Prop ply pieces topped with mylar underneath the holes with slightly oversized wet strips of X-matt to make a bottom. Mylar topped jigs should fall away after set. You'll be extending the original deck out to the hull at the inside deck level - there will be a little filling to do. Can glue a bit of backing in the side holes so that when you glue the liner in it isn't suspended in the hole on thin cutouts. Depends on how you approach this upgrade.
You may discover that the new scupper will itself do an excellent strong job closing the hole.
There are a hundred ways to do this project. This is sort of how it was done on litlgull.
Some may recall that litlgull's toerail cove INSIDE was filled with strips of wood and mishmash to the inside level of the deck molding. This made bolting the standup toerail a little easier and arguably stronger.
When I violated the old toerails I already had sufficient 'backup' for glueing in the scupper liners.
Hope this helps.
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*fairing compound. You can make your own or buy West System's 407 powdered fairing compound. They also have a 410 fairing material, don't use that. The 407 is a structural formula of fumed silica and phenolic microspheres. When mixed into two-part laminating epoxy it looks like a chocolate brownie mix. Mix into any brand two-part epoxy. Sets hard but is fairly easy to sand and fairs to feather edge. It will withstand a hot deck and can be used below the waterline.
Won't say I'm in the business of recommending, but the 407 is the ONLY PRODUCT of West System's that I will use.
[MSDS for Malaysian phenoset microspheres admits to trace amounts formaldehybe.] Dust mask.
The following photos follow up on the above scupper discussion.
#1 shows a cast bronze quarter plate for a split back stay. Note that the toe rail gutter is originally and still open at the stern.
# 2 shows the port bronze chain plates. They are tilted to the angle of each shrouds. Fastenings are 1/2" strut bolts.
#3 shows a port scupper. Note that the scupper slants aft. Scuppers are a separate liner that is glued in place.
#4 shows the three scuppers on the port side. The wood rail closes off the top of these openings. Not made for leading rope.
w e l l . . . . . .
What led to such chunky rails was making a wide allowance for the big hole in the top for the 3/8" hex bolt, washer and socket wrench. So while I went with 1 1/2" to cover the molded toerail I thought couldn't chamfer much more than leaving an inch width on top. There's a full inch for the long bolts up front but that inch widens as the rail height gets shorter as it goes toward the stern.
Rails were to be rounded. Allowance for that also widened the top because you don't want to round in way of the bung holes.
Don't know why but when I spied down the newly installed rail from stem to stern
a HUMP appeared in what should have been a deadflat LochNess shot. It wasn't a true monster because the old jack plane only took a few shaves to get it straight.
But then I took to measuring port and starboard sides to get them absolutely the same.
You know, measuring the sides at one foot intervals along the whole tapering rail
The rail is about 4" tall at the bow and about 2" at the transom.
Then I thought a TINY TINY bit of curve in the rail sheer would look sexy.
And it only took a few shaves.
But both sides HAD to be the same.....
So before I woke up they was shaved down to the bronze carriage bolt tops. A half dozen bungs on each side now were reduced to paper-thin disks that wafted out of the holes. Ahh mean STUPID!
So now I've got to put a cap on the rail to cover my excesses.
Already got most of a thin cap rail milled out of IPE which I won't varnish OR oil. Just another damn consequence...
Very well might paint the new toerails
so I won't have them always nagging at me.
#1) The backstay quarter plate is extra long because the transom was going to be dolled up with a fancy log of varnished mahogany.
But I'll forgo that I think because now I can SEE the error of putting any more weight where the hell you don't want it.
Really GOOFED on the rails. It looks to the eye that the rail leans outward.
I thought I switched port and starboard when the rails were straight before mounting.
But it is a problem that becaime more evident as the truncated rails were sprung into place, bolted and tightened up. You don't know how hard it was to bend those suckers.
I could hire a WOODWORKER to pare back the outside of the rail - in place. Straightening up the apparent lean would make the top less wide AND make it easier to fit a narrower cupped caprail. Don't trust myself.
There is also the consideration that the outer surface of the rails are now IN TENSION from springing them and may not like to be shaved. Grain might want to pop loose, dunno. Seen it happen.
Can't afford to hire. And if I put on a IPE rubrail and PAINT the toerail another color besides white.....
the problem will go away! Yeah right!
#3 & #4) Notice in the scupper shots that the toerail wood and the toerail plastic show a higher seam than where the deck to hull seam used to be! About an inch and a half below.
That old seam has disappeared (we hope). At least I don't see it there anymore under the Awlglitz. Note that pricelss sweep only the painter sees on the inside of the scuppers. Like that stuff!
Untreated IPE for the rubrail here.
Everything is bedded with butyl.
Want critque PLEASE. I'm not here with thumbs in my armpits wiggling my fingers.
"Ebb, you take that stoopid rail off the boat. How many pounds you got out there?
Fill in those nasty scupper thingies too... you'd be sailing by now if you didn't mess around with all this dumb sh........":D
Nice work Ebb.
How about a long genoa track on top of the toerail? It could go from the shrouds to the transom. Nice for when you are drifting through the doldrums and you're flying everything including your nightshirt.
You might not need to put a cap on the entire length of the toerail. Or how about a bronze striker plate as a cap.
Being able to mount stanchions tubes against the toerail is a big plus.
What about your anchor chocks? Such great choices when you have a toerail.
Ben
Ben, You are absolutely right on about not having to cap the whole length of the rail.
I didn't SEE that until you mentioned it. But niow it's mine!
I screwed up the front third of the rails. so a wooden cap could be applied from the front to the chainplates.
The chain plates cut into the rail. I feel I have to cap that area of the rail but I will wait until the mast is rigged to see where the plates end up.
Might fatten the rail up where the three plates dig in and make up a wider cap to dress it.
So the capping could end there. Aft of that could have T-bar for the gennies.
Need help with that. I've read discussions where choices are mentioned:
Track on the rail.
Track on deck beside the rail.
Track curved.
Track straight.
Track on the deck by the cabin.
Track at a slant pointing at the stemhead.
These tracks will take tremendous loads and have to be in the right place.
It will be a PITA to nut the bolts in the aft part of the boat. Smoke and mirrors.
I've salivated for years at Herreschoff inspired inrail hardware. Especially dapped in mid rail chocks for leading the spring lines. Or skene chocks at the bow and stern.
There's no way around it, I'd have to make models of what I believe is correct for leading lines off the boat. - with the idea of getting them cast. The bronze in-rail chock I've seen has sharp edges.
Catalog skene chocks are completely stupid to me unless the warp is led from directly ahead.
And ofcourse lines at the bow come aboard at all angles. Even Davies chocks (see the catalog at greenboatstuff) and chock/cleats are not correct imco. All this hardware available has hard abrupt edges that will saw through nylon in a blow.
The only bronze skenes I've seen that Litlgull could wear are the ones Tim Lackey has on his Triton 381. Aren't available anymore.
Have to see this stuff from the chaffing gear point of view and the illogical angles that rope comes aboard a boat.
The position of chocks on our rounded transom also presents a potential chaffing problem because of cleat location. Could use skenes here but you'd immediately have 'sharp' edge problems.
Some of the original Pearson cast aluminum cleats (chocks?) have a nice plump character and might be translated to hollow bronze castings with soft corners.... Dreamer.
Man, she's a looker, Ebb. Thank you Bill for adding these pics and thanks Ebb for the explanations. If I remember I milled our mahogany down to 2 3/4" high. It's been a few years ago and I can't say for sure but I know I didn't have the guts to go 4 inches. I probably should have though it looks right to my eye. I was planning on running the lead tracks on top of the rail starting from 14"-18" aft of the midship chocks back 6 feet as that is the length of the tracks I have (again, if I recall correctly:rolleyes:). I worry incessantly about the stress but everyone has told me if you use the proper sized screws to mount the tracks it won't come off unless you're doing something stupid. Which I may do. I'm thinking lot o' bedding to ward off rot.
I got six bronze rail chocks years ago in anticipation of finishing her earlier. Yeah, we all know how that is turning out. I'm hoping the rail doesn't 'spring apart' when we start cutting into it to mount the chocks! I got the C232BP's.
Hey Tony,
THERE are those bronzes!
How could you not like that 'mid rail chock/cleat' fitting?
It would schmooze nicely into the new wood rail. On lit'lgull's rail there would even be some wood left UNDER the chock.
Looking at the 'Bronze G Chock' you can't miss the hard edges. Imco this applies to the herreschoff midrail.
I've not taken these but similar skene's and tried them on the transom with a natural lead from deck cleats. I could not find a fair lead through the skenes that imco didn't have chaffing problems.
I got a couple of those Panama Canal chocks from Spartan and tried them on the transom.
(Can't locate them right now in the garage - time to do a complete inventory.)
If I remember they seemed kind of GAWKEY - awkward - even though they'd be useful.*
The fitting is tall for its base. If these were mounted to the curve of our transom and the cleats were in the usual place (in the middle of the space between the locker lid and the toes rail) the lead of the line through the horns would be across two corners of the fitting. The corners are rounded sort of but not enough for me. Could mount the chocks more in line with the cleat but imco that looks wrong and becomes a fastening problem inside the lazarette. I'm still looking for the right fitting. Something more rounded and plump and easy on rope.
The fittings could be altered/rounded with files and burrs.
But then it occured to me that these fittings are tight within the designer's concept and any rounding would possibly weaken it. Had to metally discard them. Even though I really liked that midrail......snif.
We protect rope with chaffing gear. BUT chafe protection imco BEGINS with the chock or cleat.
I got some well rounded stainless chocks at a boatshow once. They kind of leaned and were extreme deco - and you could figure eight a line across the horns like a cleat if you had to.
When I got them to the boat they would barely fit on the transom rail and looked like they had been canabilized off a power boat. Couldn't stomach it.
Hope the rail scupper pix are useful. Don't remember if I took any chop and slop pics of the process. But there must be enuf clues in the verbiage.
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*We've just had that Japan tsumami find its way ACROSS THE PACIFIC into a couple harbors here on the California coast that made the news. Crescent City harbor was mangled pretty bad. Santa Cruz harbor, which is essentially a marina, had a sudden two foot surge that sunk twenty boats damaged hundreds more and tore docking apart. Ariels apparantly OK. (See Discussion page for videos.)
Murphey's law always applies to boats - if it can it will happen.
All lines leading to a boat should be through CLOSED CHOCKS. One wave, One twist, turn, nod of the boat can panama a rope out of an open chock.
Henry Nevins' boat Polly II had these beautiful chock. Cast at the Nevins foundry no doubt.
http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u.../m247885-r.jpg
Owning your own foundry might help. How about having a size appropriate set of these made? They look good on the Formosa 51.
That hardware installation looks bollocks to me.
Stating the obvious: would anybody lead line overboard with knife edge like that? Tear the chaffing gear to shreds.
It says alot about the designer, builder, and the idiot who buys it.
Greenboatstuff shows a Davey and Co bronze version of this bollard. Smallest size is 12" and will set you back $578. Not including S&H.
Davey has a beautiful open top horney cleat #1078 -chock/cleat - that comes in four reasonable sizes. Prices start at $33. They also have small well rounded bronze bollards #1126 in four sizes, starting at $47.
Befor you order from greenboatstuff ask if they have it in stock, otherwise it'll be months. It happened to me. The web site takes a little getting used to, also.
I can see these bollards being used at the bow and stern INSTEAD OF SKENE CHOCKS on our boats. Have not actually tried them.
Lines in both locations, depending on the size bollard, would be 'corner to corner' through the bollard.
The bollards posts are round - EXCELLENT! And the base is rounded - EXCELLENT!
Have to allow for line size and chaffing gear.
I haven't got one in my hands, BUT the question arises:
can the bollard be drilled for a clevis pin across the top, or near the top, to capture the line?:cool:
Being bronze it may be a reasonable alteration. And the loose pin used only when needed. Like going through the Panama. Or leaving the boat untended.
Could fancy it up with one side of the bollard being threaded and the pin screwed into place. No cotters.
It only takes more time and more money!
Davey & Co. does custom work.....
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Later edit:
Brits being weird Brits, there is nobody in the UK including Davey that gives the dimensions or a dimensional drawing of these bollard/chocks -
except that they are so many inches long and one assumes that refers to the base (rather than the opening between the posts, which it could be) - and the width of the base. One might extrapolate enuf data to make a somewhat acciurate drawing of the fitting. However fine tuning a size to the bow toerail (they'd have to be mounted somewhat inboard imco because of space limitations in the forepeak. The width of the base is an important consideration. The bollards are highly sculptural and making a model would be difficult. Greenboatstuff is no help either, better ask what their return policy is?
Thanks Ben,
Had forgot about the Rostand collection. Visited that Historical Arts site a couple times but don't find it too visitor friendly.
But I think both fittings are worthy of further inquiry.
Must say my first take of the SELF-LOCKING BOLLARD CHOCK was more like seeing a Victorian sausage making tool than a rope cradle.
No. 2447 (comes in 5" and 6" length) the base of the larger one is 1 1/4" wide. Estimating:
The height inside the chock is 1 1/2". It is just under two inches wide at the thinest point of the bollards, which are about 1/2" wide there. Stated rope size is 'UP TO 1". The blade keeper is 1/2" wide, but there is no way of knowing how thick it is or how it is closed and opened. Would assume 5/16" FHMS bronze fasteners. Imco this fitting is light to medium duty, kind of pretty but not robust.
Ole fisheye wants to see the locking mechanism of the keeper befor even asking about the cost
I mean if you bend the blade off a little nipple or somthing like a cabinet latch, it becomes problematic.
I'm trying to imagine streaming a drogue off the stern in a howling storm.
The bollard itself is beautiful. Looks like the pattern was lifted from an already well used original!
Hey Ebb, it looks like Deep Blue Yacht Supply carries chocks similar to Tim Lackey's. I got my mooring bit from them and was happy with the company. Buck Algonquin - you can get them in various sizes and bronze too.
Geeze, Mike. I wish I had known about DBYS before I jumped... Those mooring bits look much more substantial than the one we bought. And now I'd feel bad selling it to someone else because I know there is a better piece at a better price out there. Who ever would have thought it would be this tough to have a conscience.
Ebb it's dang near warm enough for me to break into deep storage. I'll take some close ups of the mid-rail chocks so you can get a feel on the curves. They are not as smooth as the locking/captive chock Ben posted above. Thems smooooth! I wonder, can one file and polish burnished bronze? That may be a way to 'soften' those edges (which are getting progressively knifeier with each passing minute in my mind).
Mike, Good BuckAlgonquin source there. Thanks.
Tony, imco you definitely can mess with bronze.
Can file and grind hard edges rounder and buff them back without sneezing.
I wouldn't try it with stainless.
Thing I discover is it is too easy to think up an upgrade.
When I get into the new project, IT takes over. I stop thinking. Little problems happen.
And the unretrievable seconds disappear into months and years.
Tim Lackey's skenes are almost perfect. All he did was get lucky and bolt them in place.
There is nothing he had to do to make them better.
The HA Rostand shenes are fine for casual tying up.
Without a straight-on view of the fitting the dimensions can't be extrapolated. But they seem rather flat. (While Mike's Buckaroonie looks quite round inside like Tim's.) Casting looks strong and handsome.
BUT there isn't much room in the Skene Bow Chock for a chaffing wrap on the line, maybe the 6" size has to be used.
I'm convinced that warps and rodes should be at least 5/8" six or eight braid specific anchor line.
And the type of chaffing stuff should be something that disapates heat and lets in cooling waterm - not sure what that stuff is.
It isn't hard garden hose but something more porus and probably thicker.
The bollard looks OK - in the straight on picture - but what happens to the space between the horns when you turn the fitting? If a line is coming off a cleat at an angle to the chock, how much
of a twist in the chock cancels out the space for the line, wrapped line? The line can't make a jog through the horns. Has to be fair.
I'm serious about decent leads off the boat and I may have to take the TIME
to make a clay model from the photos because vendors don't ever give compleat dimensionss of fixtures. Probably because the manufacturer doesn't think e nwant it either.
Have a picture on the kichen wall that came from the cruisersforum site years ago.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/attachm...0/cleat_origin..
That won't come up, but it is a cleat/chock combo that is attached at the RAIL.
The cleat is on the inside, lower than the chock, and sideways, horizonal with the deck - the chock is on top of the rail. It is a single molded bronze fitting. The base of the cleat turns the corner up onto the rail and becomes the rounded throat of the chock. Nice. Sculpting coud be bollarde/rounded better.
The rail on the A/C is probably too short for this fitting from a larger boat - but it's clever. If you are onboard with the concept,
our rail (with maybe a wood cap) could have a nice rounded bronze skene-chock on it - and a strong cleat mounted somehow very close with the chock but bolted through the deck. Wanna try it? Problem is the pull is UP on the bolts rather than in shear as in the mystery dual fitting.
The mystery fitting is shown with a rope eye around the cleat led thru the open chock.
The plaits of the eye splice are overboard, free, and not rubbing on anything.
No wad of chaffing gear is needed except for, say, leathering the eye maybe
because there is no line to stretch and wear from mooring cleat to a rail chock like we normally have.
What's great is that the line is instantly available by slipping the eye or undoing turns off the cleat.
It's impossible to imagine the line crawling out of this fitting. Somebody was thinking here!
The A/C bow could have nice rounded bronze chock/cleats if you can find them. Warps could alternately lead from inboard mooring cleats or samson post to opposite sides: EG port cleat to starboard chock, to get a better fairer lead off the boat.
Wouldn't the "fairest" lead be straight over the bow? Why not set up an anchor roller or something similar on your stemhead fitting to use for a mooring line? You could capture the line with a big enough u-bolt bolted through the deck for extra security. It could do double-duty to contain your anchor line when not on a mooring.
Aye! It would be, Mike, the fairest lead.
This boat may have another piece of lumber or aluminum up there on the bow. The lead could be from an inboard samson post. It's going to be complicated losing weight from the bow, but it's serious now! IE, litlgull will have drastic measures to remove weight from the bow.
But I'm also prejudiced against using the anchor roller channel as a fair lead for rope. For anchoring.
That's certainly what they have become, especially the longer ones that bolt to a good piece of the deck and become a short bowsprit. Strong enough to take the weight of the boat. O sure! But structural and load data for a ULB-3 doesn't exist.
Really don't know, do I, but in a blow the only secure lead off the boat will be over a big bolted chock on the rail. not the anchor housing. Afterall it's only sheet metal:eek:
Don't remember where I got convinced, but an anchor roller's only job is to launch and retrieve its anchor and lead chain. After the anchor is set its warp and chaffing gear moves over to a rail chock. Move the warp back into the launcher when bringing it back aboard. Should be able to reach over and pick it up and move it....no stanchions or pulpit tube in the way.
And the anchor ought to be removed from the launcher whilst underway. Of this I've been persuaded. Is this a Pardey thing? Nope, it's a weight thing.
That anchor and roller gear will weigh in at 35/45lbs out there on the nose. Plus the weight of a second anchor and any chain and rode in the forepeak.
The mouth of the roller should lead rope fair but it doesn't. The bugle is only designed to retrieve chain and anchor from straight down or straight ahead. It's also possible to bend the roller especially if it is cantilevered without an added strut. More weight.
There recently was a UTube video that showed an untended moored boat dipping and lifting its bow in a blow. The boat danced and dipped in a wave and came up with the mooring rode caught in the anchor fluke housed in the roller. Then the bow of the boat started tearing itself apart. And pulling the boat under. In this case the boat was moored and the anchor was the boat's anchor ready to be deployed.*
Lesson one: It's nice and tidy to keep your anchor where any line off the bow can hook on to it. It can happen even in a marina. There was/is a picture that showed the very thing happened in a slip.
I'm convinced that IDEAL leads from a chock off the rail should be universally fair, no sharp angles.
Should lead fair at any angle: aft - forward - down. Down and to the side. sideways at any angle.
UP?
Of course, YES to that. That Rostand bollard with the blade closer would be hard, me thinks, on nylon surging in a rising Panama lock where lines lead up to the canal sides far above. Or a pier or a wall in a big tide harbor.
If you are going to fair lead the painter through the roller, maybe the keeper loop over the channel should be better thought out and stronger than the flimsy looking bars and straps that came with store-bought rollers.
*There is a strong case for anchoring - if we insist on keeping the rode/chain in the anchor-roller channel - by using a simple piece of gear called
THE TURTLE.
[Reese Palley, There Be No Dragons: How to cross a big ocean in a small sailboat. Sheridan House 1998, pgg 116/117]
The Turtle is a short piece of nylon line with a chain hook at its outer end,
connected to the boat AT OR NEAR THE WATERLINE to an eye or special strong bronze fitting.
Take the tension off the anchor roller by hooking the chain or rolling hitch to the warp and have the turtle take the weight of the chain.
No chafe on the nylon. As we might get if rigging a bridle at deck level.
We've lowered the 'lever' effect of the anchor rode by taking it off the bow and putting it nearer the waterline.
Thereby inncreasing the scope.
And if we are using all chain rode, we've cancelled the noise the link makes in the roller.
A decklevel BRIDLE can be used to take the weight of the warp away from the anchor roller. It, itself will have some chafe issues when leads are not symetrical. It is rigged too high on the boat to be really useful in worsening conditions.
Hey Bill et al,
Here, finally, are some pics - in series - showing the boat's new pump board installation.
A piece of leftover 3/8" Lexan with a shelf added to hold the high water Shurflo 1500 8Amp,
and a couple small bronze screws (can't be seen) to hold the screen clip bracket on the small Shurflo 1000 3.75 Amp.
The small pump is mounted on one side and at the very bottom with its hose pointing aft "through" a 'L' shaped hole in the pull-board.
The pump and attached hose can be lifted off and removed from the unit.
The large high water pump is fitted to the board with its hose also pointed aft and held on tightly with a nylon tie.
Assume the small pump to be replaceable - and the large expensive pump never used.
The WaterWitch digital sensors are screwed on to the board with their wires blue taped.
There is no room in the Ariel's narrow bilge/sump for traditional float switches. At least not in what litlgull has behind her ballast.
For the big pump WaterWitch has a high water alarm with a stand alone buzzer and mute fixture not shown.
Following photos show the method of making a slide holder for the board with epoxy.
The white rectangle mold is made with polyethylene sheet material.
The bilge hull sides are prepped. The mold's two ridge shapes filled with epoxy mishmash and glued to the sides. Not much pressure is needed to hold the molds while curing. I used balled up plastic film, jammed down in!
Because of the truncated mold shape the mold pops right off after the epoxy is hard.
Turns out there is just enough space to set the board in its place
It is held quite firmly when housed.
Now we have to hook up the various wires and run the hose.
Both pumps use same 1 1/8" Vinyl hose. Small pump hose will exit into cockpit.
Large pump hose will exit high up on the hull, with syphon break loop. Not sure just where,
but the hose for efficiency has to be as short as possible.
Now that is a sweet setup. :cool:
I was planning on the dual pump setup on Destiny and I really like the way that is set up. Easy to maintain which is something that will be an ongoing thing with the small pump.
Ebb,
Very nice work!
You have the same system as I have... except;
I use an Atwood 750 for the small pump
I use a Rule 2000 (Gold) for the large pump
My buzzer is mounted up near the companionway (it is loud enough to hear in a hurricane... you can test it and hear it from the parking lot in the marina).
And (as usual).... ;)
Your install is about 100x neater, cleaner, and more photogenic then my install. :)
For more discussion of this, and the thinking that lead me to the same system you have here see this thread.
Craig,
SailFar is indeed a lively one with great posts by many sailors including yourself.
One day when my credentials are in order I'll see if I can rejoin the SAIL FAR community.
By then I will have learned not to talk at length - but in short.
Don't know who gets credit for the bilge pump pull board idea. It's now OURS! Imco it is a great solution for our narrow bilges. Happy to add two more cents.
Like great music tunes, we can build on them and improvise. (I'm on the slide whistle!)
Capt Pauley has a version. Don't know about MaineSail.
More the merrier!
Maybe my contribution to tidying up the sump is a method of making the slide board holders that are merely mishmash* cleats pasted onto the sides of the bilge.
Rediculous simple to make if you have the polyethylene sheet to construct the molds.
The three polyethylene rails that make the mold-form are 1/2" tall. The width at 'top' 1/2". The base 5/8". Tablesaw blade set off square a couple of degrees and the material just run through to make these forms. As cast, the ridges are 1/2" wide at top, the 5/8" width is pasted to the hull. The space between two ridges is those dimensions inverted.
Cut extra 'rail' pieces and used them as inverted spacers. To build the mold-form, screwed 1/4" polyethylenne to the 'bottom' wider side of the rails. The pics above should be helpfull.
Dropped the spacers out and cut the long mold in half, cut 45 degrees at the ends of the two forms on the chopsaw and screwed on short 1/4" thick endpieces to tie the form together. The forms you see in the fotos are about 12" long.
This was made from 1/2" and 1/4" scrap at hand. Could use thin ply for the 1/4" piece with release material on the inside like seranwrap or mylar.
Certainly is possible to make this simple form with plywood and wood strips using wax as the release. Polyethylene sheet is available from TAP Plastics and McMasterCarr. 5/8" #6 woodscrews.
When seated the pump pullboard is jammed tight - when it's lifted, it very soon is free of the confines of the new guides.
This is good because the pull board wants to be tilted and even turned out of the hole ASAP.
There must be a dozen more ways to hold the board, whether plastic or wood strip.
The bilge in the Ariel gets narrower going aft - that means the pull board is at a shorter angle than right angle to the hull sides. I got lucky in this improv because it worked out that there was just enuf room for the 3/8" lexan to track and end up tight in the slot because of the truncated shape of the space between the guides.
It also turned out that the sides of the keel way down in there are pretty straight and the straight molds fit flat.
[The polyethylene strips that make up the mold are quite bendy. Imco it would be entirely possible to bend these molds against mildly curved hull sides. You'd need a good way to hold them when filled with mishmash solidly in place against the hull until set.]
Used doorskin 'L' jigs to hold and position the molds where they had to be, And relative to each other..... got lucky!
Used some "60 Second" Devcon blister pack epoxy - havn't seen that stuff befor - couple dabs
and the doorskin jigs were stuck in place. Pretty good glue that: after set, the ply pieces were popped off with a chisel and the carbide scrapper got the 60 second off. Right....longer than 60 sec.
How often do we get to hand hold an epoxied piece in place long enuf to have it set? 60 secs gives a bit of sliding adjustment time to get the jigs just so.
Could have used good old double side carpet tape but risked it pulling away at the wrong time!
There is just enough outward lean to the hull sides so that the goop filled molds rested in the minimalist jigs nicely without having to be jammed in place.
But still pushed in a large ball of used plastic film between the molds. Nothing moved.
Thanks Jerry!
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*mishmash: a fairly stiff mix of 2-part laminating epoxy, chopped strand, and fumed silica. Befor positioning the loaded molds on the jigs, scrub the prepared areas with a bristle brush and liquid epoxy. Not too much, just prime. If it is wet, wipe it 'dry' with paper towel. Insurance that
the guides will bond to the hull. If you've slathered the temporary plywood jig holders, pop them off before the epoxy fully sets so that they don't become permanent!
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Went with Shurflo because around the net there aren't many complaints about them I could find. The 1500 on the board has 6' of head
Recently Practical Sailor did a comparison test of submersible bilge pumps - Shurflo came out on top I believe. Surprisingly so did a Rule. The philosophy of the two pump pull-board is a good one (altho my interpretation may be off). And the concept seems to be specifically designed FOR the Ariel/Commander sump area. Any Alberg.
A smaller, cheaper pump sits close to the bottom and does all the menial work. It's not THAT cheap but certainly cheaper than the bigger one mounted above it.... that is set up with a highwater alarm that has a remote dial and mute button.
In theory the big one is the standby and will always be fresh and eager when needed. It would be possible to to mount an even larger pump, but I worry what the draw would be - not that it would matter when trying to stay afloat in the middle of the ocean.
I can't see WHERE even one traditional float switch can be put into our sump? That's why we went with the WaterWitch system. Both pumps should have a manual toggle over-ride in case the WaterWitch sensors don't work. There may be other digital systems out there. Hoses from a couple manual lift pumps also need access in those tight quarters. There's only room for hose ends in litlgull's sump.
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If the smaller Shurflo's exit hose is up into the cockpit, that hose can have a little bit of out-of-sight-out-of-mind location to it.
BUT, the hose that leads the big pump overboard, no matter where the thru-hull exit is in the topsides, it will have a vacuum breaker and
also an accessible SEACOCK to shut the hole. Where and how has not been easy to solve. Has to be visually recognizable and easy to maintain & work the lever. Probably the cockpit port locker which gets fairly regular use.
And grooving with FREDDIE NYLON'S PLASTIC STUDS:
Changed horses midstream [again], assume it is an improvement.
[It's important that the description here won't make much sense
unless it is realized that the window openings were previously prepared
by filling in the surrounding space between cabin and liner with epoxy paste.*]
Thought that 1/4", 5/16"OD, barrel nuts (sex bolts) in 304 and 316 from McMCarr was the way to go to mount slab-on Lexan ports to the cabin sides - no hex heads, nice shiney round heads inside and out.
Had the lexan cut, rounded, sanded, prepped, and drilled with 5/16" holes - matched to 5/16" holes drilled thru to the inside of the cabin where the barrel nuts would be.
BUT then it FINALLY dawned on me that poking machine screws through sticky butyl taped lenses and marrying them up inside with barrel nuts wasn't an option - what would keep them from turning? My arms weren't long enough.
And the nagging problem: how to paint the cabin inside with 50 blingy screw heads poking out around the four lights.....wasn't going to paint over them, was I?:o
So the natural choice became 1/4" 304 T- NUTS - which also happen to have a 5/16" OD barrel that is 1/2" long but with a 3/4"D flange on one end and really sharp stamped spikes at 90degrees around the perimeter. Not so sexy.
Nasty little buggers...... but could be POTTED WITH EPOXY into the cabin wall.
Found a counterbore from McMCarr (cat.pg.2458 - a short 3/4" bit with a 5/16" interchangable smooth pilot that would, and did, precisely counter-bored the inside 5/16" holes into 3/4" diameter holes.
- drilled out each location stopping the countersink just at the cabin molding!!!:eek: Used a sharpie pen to depth mark the bit, and drilled easy-does-it.
At this point plain nutz, prepped EACH T-nut with Dremel sanding disks, scuffing up all reachable surfaces so that the epoxy gel filler had more surface area to stick to. Made up some temporary thread protection by screwing polyethylene** all-thread pieces into each barrel - loaded up each of the 52 fittings with gel using a 2oz syringe (TAP Plastic) and pressed each gooper into its perfectly sized hole.
Was going to use the plastic all-thread pieces to position T-nuts exactly in the hole relative to the cabin exterior - but normal s.s. nuts proved to be too tight to turn onto the plastic.
Cabin sides - previously filled with epoxy goop between the cabin and the liner -
have some variation in overall thickness around the window cutouts. T-nuts with a 1/2" length barrel worked for almost every location (also had some 3/8" barrel length on hand, just in case) - and stayed exactly where they were pressed in wet.
The T-nut flange in almost very hole inside ended up slightly below the surface of the liner inside.
The holes are now disappeared and the surface, faired with goop and 407.
There's NO telltale around the window openings (What stinkun T-nuts?) and there is instead an uninterrupted new coat of white primer.
Will mount Lexan with 1/8" offWHITE butyl tape. Squeeze out is inevitable - and necessary. Controling squeeze-out has to be done by introducing O-rings or washers around each screw as the lexan is positioned for the install. The light bronze tinted lex is clear - the butyl is white - and nearly all O-rings are black or red. Maybe 6/6Nylon washers, which are white. An alternative are 1/16" thick and fairly narrow polycarbonate washers (from McMC) that are clear, more durable, more pricey, and maybe just mo'betta.
Screw length has to be watched. T-nuts are open on both ends.
Could turn them in and run them out the now blind end into the cabin - will try to avoid this as the butyl tape is squeezed to its final thickness.
Each fitting had a piece of plastic all-thread screwed in that filled the entire barrel thread to the bottom of the flange - keeping epoxy out. The plastic studs also provided an indispensable 'handle' for holding, gooping and positioning. And also, screwed all the way into the flange allowed filling the shallow dips inside with epoxy gel. Hard to figure how this ballet is done without these so convenient plastic allthread studs.
Wanted to use a nut on the allthread outside to draw the gooped up T-nut into alignment - wasn't possible.
But it seems the process worked anyway. After epoxy set every piece of plastic backed out leaving clear thread all the i/2" way into the flange and the cosmetic evidence of NO fastenings around the windows inside. The counter bore allowed the T-nuts no wiggle room to move out of alignment. Some are probably out of square - a little. Have to assume Incurable Curmudgeon drilled the original holes square.
Anybody want any virgin sex bolts?
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Don't know if this really wants pointing out.
Recently had a short exchange at an Alberg Fleet breakfast with a new Triton owner who had just epoxy glued his polycarbonate slabs to the cabin sides!
Certainly simple and direct....I think.
Conceivably the immobilized polycarbonate - which is more flexible and gummy than the cabin - could move with heat and cold and stay stuck. If acrylic is used it will shatter, imco, without question. He had visited a circumnavigator's yacht and seen, first hand, lexan lights that were glued on that way - and said to have gone around the world with nary an errant leak....
Only the French can do stuff like that! :D
If your cabin is 1/4" fiberglass laminate and you cut some holes in it to let the light in....
you might glue some 1/4" polycarbonate over the holes to keep the water out - and hope all movement and flexing will equalize and keep the windows in place.
I still don't think it'll work on any Alberg.... and said so.
The receiving T- nuts potted into the cabinside in the above ap are as immobile as the cabin sides. The 3/8" plastic lens floats on a pad of ever flexible butyl tape.
1/4" PHMS are screwed in through slightly oversized 5/16" holes in the lens with a fat EPDM washer under the head against the plastic. Could almost argue these screws, or rather the plastic lenses, are 'floating' .
Have to hope there is room enough in the thru-holes for the lexan to breathe a little. Maybe no.
I guess we'll have to see what happens.
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* The window openings in the cabin of A338 some time ago had their perimeters filled - the very approximate 1/2" space between the cabin and the liner inside the cabin - with epoxy mishmash.
This fix isolates the window openings from any water intrusion into the liner which exits inside over the shelves at the hullsides in as-built Ariels.
This process consequently stiffens and supports the cabin sides in way of the huge openings. Upgrade has been described here and in other threads.
** Mentally stuck on this material. On going back into the McMC catalog discovered there isn't any polyethylene threaded rod. So it has to be Nylon. Epoxy doesn't stick to this material either. I found the 6' long threaded piece sticking out of a tube in a corner of the shop and just ASSUMED. Easy to cut, of course, but very hard to make it easy to screw into a nut, the end has to be clean and trimmed just right. This material also comes as STUDS in the McMC catalog, Suggest that, if you thunk this single-use method of keeping the threads clear of glue is worth it, you spring for the studs. They easily screw into the T-nutz. 1 1/2" would be my choice.
Update.
This IS the easy way to mount lexan lenses.
And it may not be the best waterproof way - have my doubts because I cheated on the number of fastenngs - but maintenance-wise it IS the only way, because the windows can be removed in a trice, recaulked, replaced without really sweating it. 3/8" p.carbonate is very stiff stuff, it looks impossible to draw fastenings tight enough to bend waves into the sheet. The system does not call for bonding, fastenings are not torked.
Butyl tape comes onsite in a cooler after being unrolled cold from storage in the fridge at home, cut to approximate length with Fiskars and rolled back up into a loose roll.. Still sticky when cold but not sticky sticky.
Place lens on a packing quilt inside up, unroll butyl around the perimeter bearing surface. Use an awl to locate and open holes in the butyl - and from the underside (outside) press thru 1/4" PHMS that each have a 3/32" thick EPDM washer pressed on against the head. The 5/8"D rubber washers seat into a 1/16" deep counterbore in the plastic. EPDM is very squishy under pressure and needs the countersink rim to help keep its shape. Doesn't always work. (PHMS can of course be backed out later and a s,s, washer added on top of the rubber one to get more even pressure.)
The tape is getting warmer the more time it takes to push the screws thru. But the screws get more-or-less stuck to the tape holes and the 1/16" thick clear polycarbonate spacer washer can be dropt over the threads and pressed into the butyl. The piece can be rotated to work on - or break for lunch and left unattended - there's no viscous tube goop to skin over or make a mess! Don't need gloves.
The lens can be picked up, all pieces stuck, and taken to the window opening. Two nylon studs partially screwed in on the bottom row serve as locators to position the lens. Again, NO MESS! Then feel for the T-nut and happily turn each PHMS home.
Miscalculated what the finished length of the screws was to be, so had to changeout longer for shorter, ending up with 3/4". However if hard washers need to be added to cap the rubber washers, the longer ones (7/8") could be back again. We'll see.
Must go without saying that all the time the windows were handled: marked, cut, routed, sanded, drilled and scuffed, the protective plastic films inside and out were carefully left on the pieces. Film got a little ratty and corners came unstuck - but the polycarbonate has to be kept covered during the whole process.
This is especially the case when the plastic is tinted or UV treated (which means it has an inside & outside)
- a scratch on this techy sheet canNOT be buffed out.
As the fourth window was being attached, it happened that the very last screw (really!) did not meet up with its inside partner. It was an empty hole. NO T-nut. WHAT the hell...
Couldn't believe it. Did ALL the holes. So I located the well-used and pretty dull counerbore* and began to drill in the 3/4"D T-nut bore I had somehow missed. Peeked thorugh the hole and saw that it matched the hole in the lens. But immediately hit hard shiney metal and DIDN"T bust a carbide. The T-nut was there alright, but off by a half an inch or so embedded like an aching wisdom tooth. Still shaking my head, that second hole: what happened?
Got it out. Royally screwed up the integrity of the surrounding liner, filler, and ancient cabin polyester - regooped it, rebuilt it, redrilled it, repotted the T-nut - and now the repair awaits primer and the remounting of the fourth lens.
Damn refurbishing gods, how do I get on their wrong side?
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* This counterbore plus one pilot costs about $50. Found at the bottom of pg 2458 in the online MMCarr catalog. Like a champ it drilled more than fifty 3/4" wide holes 1/2" deep in the old cabin liner and new epoxy filler. That would add up to about two feet of solid polyester, glass and epoxy for that HSS bit.
BUT the four flute bit can have the flute bottoms hand honed leaving the sides untouched - as sharpening them would change the counterbore's diameter! For its use on the boat here, its exact diameter bore contributed to the success of the job. It is conceivable that in the future more T'nutz and PHMS may have to be added to make the lenses more waterproof. With a steady hand, extra fastenings can be drilled for IN PLACE. Disassembled, fine tuned, rebedded, maybe TefGelled, and returned to the cabinside. Extra work but do-able.
Might describe counterbores as flat bottom countersinks. The bit leaves a clean flat surface exactly at 90 degrees to the pilot.
[Now have added more pilots and a 5/16" to the 5/8" counterbore (used for the EPDM washer) so that adding fastenings later with the lens in place can in theory be done.[
TEFGEL
[recently Forespar introduced their teflon anti-corrosion product: (not KY for stallions)MareLube TEF45 - 45 refers to their formula having 5% more teflon than Tefgel (making it 5% better obviously!] ,
must be considered to ultimately waterproof this system. PHMS are 316, T-nuts are 304 - in salt they should be isolated. If any screws get backed out they may get TefGelled. But the butyl should perform as hoped: stay forever sticky between the lens and the cabinside, won't let any water under pressure inside (doesn't get displaced), EPDM washers form a seal under each head, and butyl squished in around threads creates the waterproofing.....want to assume the embedded T-nut is far enough removed from exposure not to need any extra protection. Famous last words.
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Bills next post won't make any sense, because there was an idiot's post here, must have been mine - fortunately now erased. Hope this cabin window stuff is credible.
Apologise for exercising Bill's incredible patience!!!!:D
Ebb, you were able to edit a long post (#391) at 6:41 AM today?? I just edited your 7:37 AM long post (#392) with none of the problems you describe. Maybe the problem is with your computer or LAN?
CABIN WINDOWS
Approached the decision of 'slabbing-on' polycarbonate windows rather piecemeal. Only now, after the four lenses are installed, is there a whole picture - and how it might have been done better and less awkward.
The pan head machine screws bother me - now that the job is done.
The 316 PHMS come from McMasterCarr. Precisely made. Big heads flat rounded. Rim around the bottom of the head is also rounded slightly. That makes them stand out like military buttons, even directly on the rubber washers. They look like they are adrift from the work & not snugged up properly. When focused on other projects around the boat these 'proud' fastenings seem to grab the eye... Annoying.
Know same RHMS size with phillips eyes are smaller in diameter and completely flat on the bearing surface. Even if they are a bit taller than the pans, they'd appear tidy - their smaller cross holes less significant than the pan's extra large. Less head diameter dictates metal washers added on top of the 5/8" rubber ones - imco they are needed anyway under turning screws to protect soft rubber from deforming. The effect would be compact, integrated and correct. Ahdono about professional - shuda done it the first time.
THUS & SO
This IS about aesthetics: Too expensive now, but 1/4" 316 HEXHEAD capscrews for the lenses would have been pretty nice. We think of hex heads as a meat and potato fastener, but when you open the white boxes from McMCarr they bling like metalic crystals. And about as pricey! Each set, nut-washer-screw, perfectly matched. The heads, especially nice, are half the height of the PHMS, much classier and have no EYES. The dodger should have been installed with these too. Faceted heads in small sizes are much less busy than cross-eyed attention grabbers.
MAST
More practical: After the experience removing #8-20 RH phillips sheet metal screws from the mast track - spinning power bits round in defiant heads with the cordless hammmerdrill ..... making it necessary to grind them off and drill them out.... came upon the great notion... that the screws being trashed were not only softer metal than the bits but also not a smart design for turning.
Potted LED blinks on in cortex: what's the point of driving one hundred hole-in-head screwpins back into the track again, when some day, for sure, they'll ruin another fool's day?
Got a better idea? S u r e .
#8-32 316 HEX machine screws. (1/4" W head, less than 1/8" H) Perfect fit in the channel of the old 7/8" s.s. T track. Including the driver socket.
Not only will they look better but use a common driver that's designed for metal work and comes in choices. Why do we insist on using a POINTY bit to remove these dreaded embedded agitators when a nut driver or wrench or socket will do a much better job with a SIX POINT HEADLOCK!:eek:
And rather than appearing SO yachtsy fartsy with knobbly jewelry, suppose we use practical hexheads wherever we can.
Saw photos on the net of a gooseneck mast plate up-grade newly mounted with cap screws. Way more macho than cross-eyed roundheads.
Goodlooking 316 1/4-28 capscrews! Come as short as 3/8". Standard head: 7/16"Wide but only 5/32"Height.
With the price of anything 316, slim hexhead capscrews will have the same practical look as jeans by RobertoCavalli.
[EDIT - correction]
The full range of STAINLESS 316 HEX HEAD CAP SCREWS is available with narrow(fine) thread: 1/4-28 - 5/16-24 - 3/8-24 - 7/16-20 -5/8-18 - 3/4-16 - McMasterCarr pgs 3145-3146. They come fully threaded and partial threaded. Partial means that the threads are stopped and a certain number of inches on the shank are not threaded.
MAST THRU-BOLTS
Imco Correct length for the 1/2" bolts for sheave and spreaders/shroud tangs makes sure that unthreaded shank rests in BOTH holes in the mast. No fine thread partials come long enough. (mast is 3 1/2" wide, OD - adding washers, plastic spacers, tangs figure 1/2" more plain = 4") Have to use 6 1/2 - 7" partial thread standard bolts, which have long enough unthreaded shanks for this app.
The shank must bear clean and threadless on the 1/8" aluminum wall in the holes on BOTH sides. That's the trick.
A HSS die will cut more thread if needed to enable torqueing the nut (when all the washers and tangs are on the bolt) to close the assembly WITHOUT SQUEEZING THE MAST WALL. Looking to wrench the nut TIGHT against the end of the thread - yet leave all hangers with a skoch wiggle room. (currently hexhead 1/2" 316-13 partials from McMCarr: nom 7" have 3 7/8" untreaded shank)
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A bit on our ALUMINUM CORROSION. Please correct me where I'm wrong ! ! !
It's an assumption that fine thread hexheads of any size will be easier than fine thread slot or philips to back out. Don't know a soul who's using hexheads in hisorher mast track. And the next scheduled track removal maintenance for A-338 is around year 2057.
Another law of unpainted, anodize-long-gone, 45 year old mast disassembly.... is that the finer the thread the LESS corrosion is found in the aluminum, the more easy to loosen and remove.
The wide thread #8-20 sheetmetal screws Pearson used in the mast track installation created white powder and crevis corrosion* in every one of the hundred-plus holes. The track was literally 'poultice' welded to the mast - while the old s.s. screws that did move came out with sharp threads, there was no significant thread remaining in any aluminum hole. Imco the track was ready to fly off the mast.
My experience suggests that if you are the first fool to restore your mast, TAKE IT ALL OFF - INCLUDING THE TRACK!
Finer thread means less molecular-space for sea water to stagnate. BUT even a perfect threaded 316 screw in a perfect tapped aluminum hole will have spaces in the corners of the thread that need filling. Lanocoat (anhydrous lanolin) is a traditional waterproofing for threaded fasteners.
*this crevis corrosion (sometimes talked about as 'gasket' corrosion) is a lesser evil of the SAME vigorous oxygen deprived corrosion we find bubbling under painted aluminum spars.
Believe it's been shown that the real nasty can occur whether the mast is painted, anodized or conversion coated - whether the protection has been breached deliberately or by accident. The breach when moist creates an immediate anodic condition in relation to the coating which becomes cathodic. And a measurable voltage 'charge' is born that causes exchanges of electrons and there's your corrosion! Molecular moisture will stagnate, get sour, and the pH separates producing an acid/base reaction that will change Na and Cl into a more corrosive solution. Double whammy!! Visual evidence depends on unique potentials in the package of chemicals on the mast, so it's not predictable - but can possibly be horrendous. Use a barrier grease on anything deliberately piercing the mast - including pop-rivets. (S.S. pop rivets must be 100% stainless, otherwise you have to punch out the steel mandrel which then weakens the fastening.) Using aluminum pop rivets is dangerous for the same reason AND they are 1/4 the strength of s.s. Favor tapped in fine thread screws.
TEFGEL has the rep for being the most dependable corrosion block for dissimilar metals. 40% PTFE. No silicones, no petro solvents. Apply to BOTH surfaces leaving no voids for water to capillary into fastenings and bedding surfaces. Does not increase resistance used on electrical contacts. Prevents galling of s.s. screw threads driven into s.s matrix. Won't 'cold' flow like lanocote. Use on O-rings, ball & sleeve bearings as a lasting lube.
Get a 2 or 4OZ jar. You'll be using it! Cleanup with mineral spirits.
*CREVICE CORROSION, as a result, refers not only to the valley made by an accidental scratch in coated Al - and also to each fastening crater hole - but also refers to the crevis produced by two pieces of metal bearing cheek-by-jowl together. Plastic film or sheet rubber as an insulator is not enough imco, we must keep water out of the interface. Tefgel doesn't oxidize, never sets, always sticky.
[My argument against using tube synthetic rubber like polysufide under fittings applied to the mast (OR stanchion bases) is that while the material sets up and gets flexible... it's no longer sticky. Therefore if the bond fails (which happens often enough) a crevis situation is born and water is DRAWN in. However, if the rubber is a type like butyl tape: never sets, never gets hard, then water has a better chance of staying out. Will use 20milSPVC pipe wrap AND butyl (or Tefgel for tight fits) as a extra assurance barrier for metal-to-metal or non-metal fittings.]
MINI NYLON BRISTLE BRUSHES (set of five, 1/16" to 3/16", 4" long, ring mounted, $3.95 - from www.micromark.com) * will get TefGel INto the threads IN screw & bolt holes....INsuring that no hidden space is left for water to electrolyte and waste our ancient and elegant masts.
Imco, shipping prices are getting so outrageous that catalogers will put themslves out of business. Local hobby, train, toy shops, gun stores, auto paint stores for these brushes. Blisterpak brand is Hawk or KingSun. Tiniest brush will get compound into the threads of the tiniest screw hole. These are miniature bottle brushes. *(Try www.utopiatools.com/Mini-Brush-Set-Nylon-Bristle)
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Find the Tech thread 'Mast issues and renovation' for current activity on the stick.
Hello Ebb. Long time no post :-) Hope all is well in your world. Can we have an update?
Hello Frank, long time! And we could do with an update from you as well - hasn't it been as long? A shot of your NEW retirement cottage, some improvements to the Flicker - and likely works on even smaller craft! Could use some inspiration.....
Woodn't bore you with the usual impairments and disfunctions last year - admit I did
more shuffling than hustling thru this mortal coil. But here it is February again - after the longest
series of freezing nights and cold days noticed robins bathing in the fountain out front in the morning sun - that's a sign of spring in Coastal California.
So I'm fairly bouncing up the ladder at the boat in San Rafael. When I'm there.:o
Bill is on my case! I have no cosmetics to photograph.
So what might happen is that we can post some shots of the mast reno, so far as it's gone.
Also made some thin plywood cases for mounting/protecting naked modulars of a Specter Ventura acquired years ago. Have to reacquaint myself with Specter, whose shop is around the corner in San Rafael.... I turned in the membrane, at their suggestion, to come back later and pick up a fresh one when I was ready.... but only the shadow knows when ebb is ready???
But will stop by and see if anybody remembers me! Fitting a desalinator into the Ariel is
a bit like building a house on your head.....
I'll have photos of some of THAT.
LITTLE BOXES
So, I've been making these cozies with 1/4" or 6mm meranti - somewhat like stitch & glue. Boxes are all about right angles, merely
introducing short sides to long with epoxy gel. No stitches, just hold shapes together at right angles with square chunks of wood.
Keep the squeezeout minimal. Position on a flat mylar covered surface. When set, run a clean fillet on all inside corners with more gel. Let this set.
As always use laminating 2 to 1 no solvent epoxy.
Now roundover the outside corners with the router. Clean it up and scuff the surfaces, laminate 6oz woven fiberglass cloth inside and out
by laying on the dry material. Dab with loaded brush. Pliable plastic spreader excess gently away. Trim cloth with orange scissors as you go, try not to lap the cloth, it'll be hard to sand flat. But it can carefully be done. Or lap seamlessly over to an edge where it can easily be trimmed when dry. Don't try to cover the edges with fabric.
The major deal - as with stitch&glue - we are using the fabric to integrate the joints. NO fastenings. Elephants can sit on these cases.
When you paint, if you haven't filled the surface, the result is a very nice industrial texture look!
However, for other projects you can transform thin meranti by skinning both sides with 6oz - and proceed as if it were normal plywood.
The stuff is maybe 1/16" thicker and has doubled in strength and hardness, Still easy to glue, but it's elevated into another kind of hard stable material.
Painted on a coat of Aluthane which makes strange cases even stranger looking, like cast aluminum or sumthing!
If I could do it all over again, the whole interior of litlgull would be done this way. 'Cleatless' will rule!
While gluing little boxes for a desalinator isn't exactly exciting - the method is note worthy - sure not the first doing this - often reinvent the wheel!
The transformation of filleted meranti, glass & epoxy into a synergetic construct is amazing! Unbelievably stiff and strong.
Stitch & glue is a game changing method of building watercraft. Filleting panels & skinning with fabric is the same game. If only I'd been aware - the whole interior of A338, with all its natural planes and angles could have created with 1/4"& 3/8" ply and glass, hardly any bloody cleats anywhere to complicate vertical to horizontal tansitions. Half the weight of what I've burdened litlgull with!!
M-1
Spent some time looking into polyether-based adhesives and sealants - some of which are now building trades GREEN mainstream.
Recently used ChemLink's silyl terminated polyether 10oz tube M-1, filliing a seam on the cabin sole. Very reasonably priced. $6, I think, local roofing supply. No smell, no solvents, essentially no VOC, non flamable. No UV problems, won't get yellow, moisture cure, said to have strong adhesion to virtually all surfaces including a number of plastics, excellent flex. excellent durability. Only polyether that is 3rd party (LEEDs) certified Green. Alcohol cleanup. Blue tape masking pulls off leaving a clean line...after partial set.
My focus is on its ability to be used underwater. Solvent based 3M4000 silyl terminated urethane polyether advertised for (immersion) thru-hulls and requires toluene or acetone for cleanup. Both these products will bond thruhulls to fiberglass - which I don't think is a good idea.
And M-1's ability to be used as a truly allpurpose caulk, sealant, adhesive remains to be forum confirmed, but it's looking real good. Will not be used for thru-hulls either. [Plan on well-known construction butyl tape, under the flange only]
M-1 not marine marketed like the 3M polyether at three times the price.
(Research ChemLink's Duralink an extremely elastic sealant/adhesive for on-deck metal to frp fittings like stanchion bases, cleats, pads, track. Butyl shouldn't be used on fittings that might move in use. Super stick
butyl tape like MaineSail's Bed-It could be used for stanchion bases and other under-stress fittings. imco)
Out of the tube gun, it's clean, non-viscous, easy to tool. If I remember experiences with polysulfide, the messiest unfriendliest most unforgiving tube rubber on the planet, M-1 is 180 degrees from polysulfide in handling. Works clean rather than messy. M-1 bonds to stuff, it's not a bedding compound.
Won't it be great to reach for one type of goop where 4 or 5 used to poop?
Promise activity here with photos ASAP.
1st off...GREAT TO HEAR YOU'RE ALIVE AND THE PROJECT CONTINUES!!!!!!!!! I and I'm sure "WE ALL" are all looking forward to pictures!!! I'm checking in from Green Turtle Cay Abacos....Ebb....ya gotta get going! Looking forward to ya sailing in here. We have rum to drink, stories to swap, ideas to debate. Looking forward to the pictures. ;-)
So glad to hear that your wonderful little ship is making her way closer to being launched!
Faith is tugging at her lines, I am suffering away my days doing charters here in the Virgin Islands. I left the US on Thanksgiving day, and have not been back since. I am onboard a Pearson 424, and expect to be back (if I come back) some time this year.... This ship has been very good to me, but I sure miss Faith. Can't wait till we are all out here together!
Strange how a sailboat can
represent at the same time
the comforts of solitude
and the pleasures of company.
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Author Unknown - from my daughter's blog
teapot = sailboat:D