Heavy Weather

In my NAVY days, we did some of this exciting cruising into the gaping jaws of death. I particularly liked the day a bunch of forktrucks broke loose in a forward cargo bay. Made great pinballs. Big 10,500-pound pinballs. :eek: My idiot division officer told me to take a bunch of boatswains mates foreward and order them to hold down and re-gripe these playful trucks. I offered him the honor of being the first one to lay-hold of one of our hopping, drunken leviathans--because I was certain some of the men might have doubts about their own abilities to accomplish the thing. The physics of the situation seemed to suddenly and subtley insinuate itself into his planning. He decided we needed to be somewhere else for a while. Nothing quite like a heaving ship to teach you about g-forces transferred through a deck plate.
Can't blame the division officer, though. His degree was in Animal Husbandry.
Arrrrr.
GWC
Houdini (A-407) :cool:

Funny stuff. Maybe not too funny at the time.

Last pic

Blub Blub

Question: if a fellow in a small sailboat is busy taking these pics instead of heaving-to or otherwise reducing sail how likely is it that he is sane? Anybody out there ever sail a Commander or Ariel that hard? Results?
GWC

Houdini (A-407)

I think that photo was taken by an Australian racer, so he could be crazy for two reasons.

I sure wouldn't want to sail my boat that way. I remember the first time I took a wave over the deck. It lifted up the forward hatch and dumped a bunch of water below. Bit of a shock. You want to dog that hatch down.

I wouldn't want to try this either

:eek:

That's one way to overcome the limitations of a displacement hull!

Shamrock V.

Some great sailing action in this movie clip. Wet & Wild

http://www.sailinganarchy.com/fringe...Croughedit.wmv

And stay away from Tankers

The Ocean doesn't like them

Enough ugly tankers

I'd like to retrieve this thread and ask if anyone knows (personally or otherwise) of offshore storm tactics in the Ariel. In the last few months, I've read Heavy Weather Sailing (Coles), How to Sail Around the World (Roth), EVERYTHING by the Pardeys, and re-digested the appendices in all of Bernard Moitessier's writings. I am now the world's greatest theoretical bluewater storm tactician. ;)

Still, in outfitting for offshore, I wonder if the Ariel, with it's heavy displacement and long keel wouldn't behave much like the yachts of old (and the Pardey's two boats) with a parachute sea anchor? It seems like a safe, cheap and proven way to go.

While the Jordan series drogue has much to recommend it (including much scientific research), I question its use ONLY because of the Ariel's small size. While it may unfailingly hold you stern-to, I'm not sure I want 30-foot breakers in a 7-foot cockpit.

Also, I recall earlier in this thread someone mentioning dropping the jib completely and hunkering down under reefed main. Will the Ariel heave to with no headsail? Or should one use a spitfire?

Food for thought appreciated!

Jeremy

My experience is you don't want anything up forward in maximum, or near maximum weather - no storm jib - no spitfire.

A double reef main will take you through anything on the Great Lakes (although that does not mean you are in for a pleasant ride). But without the double reef main, the pitching and rolling become untenable. With the double reef, you can luff to your heart's content and take almost anything. Your boat is under control heading somewhat upwind at a speed that you want.

The key as for the amount and location of the sail is when you lose rudder control. With ANY headsail in a blow, the Ariel bow will be pulled downwind regardless of what direction you would like to stear. That means the double reef will fill and off you go - downwind - out of control. Worse, with only a foresail, there is nothing to head you upwind - you are hosed!

Stick with a reduced main (and perhaps a motor to give some headway, since a double reef may not provide sufficient drive - at least on the Great Lakes with their short wave crest and the unusually steep waves.)

The other alternative is to avoid severe weather entirely. That is my latest approach. But your enemies in heavy weather are a) either to get going downwind so fast that the bow gets tripped under the bow wave, or b) to have no sail and the pitch and roll become so bad that you can't take it physically.

This is good to know. Thank you Theis!

One should take into account that fresh water storm waves
are a little lighter than salt water. ;)

Thanks Theis!

I learned how to sail on the Albemarle Sound in N. Carolina, another notorious body of fresh water: 120 miles wide and 8 feet deep. When those lovely Hatteras Lows blow through, talk about short,steep waves. Oy veh.

Along these heavy-weather lines, does anyone know of someone rigging a solent stay on an Ariel?

J.

You must have never fell in or got capsized, because the Albemarle is quite salty, as is the Currituck and the Pamilico and all the other Carolina sounds. The Atlantic goes pouring through Oregon Inlet , Hatteras Inlet, Ocracoke Inlet, etc. several times a day. The tide runs up past Plymouth, Edenton or Hertford. Even the Roanoke River that feeds the Albemarle from the west is brackish a good ways up toward Murfreesboro .
Where on the Albemarle were you ?
Some of my ancestors met the Roanoke Colonists when they arrived, so you could say I have a wee bit of local knowledge!

One thing I did forget to mention. On my storm jib (the original Pearson design), I do have 50% reef points - so that I can bring it down to the size of a spitfire, but very close to the deck. I have never reefed the jib (other than for practice).

Where this might be useful is where there are continuous high winds of known velocity, the boat has been stabilized, and more drive is desired. I would not use it with an approaching storm because I wouldn't have any clue what I was in for and do not want to be over powered. However, after a front passes and I am faced with gale force winds, I might put the reefed storm jib up with a reefed main to get a bit extra drive. But I have never done that, so this is just conjecture. Better to stay out of that stuff - if you have a choice.

Ok Mike, I'll accept "brackish," and it can get pretty salty especially during a drought year. Still, for all of its faults, sailing on water with no tidal current is a mighty nice (provided you don't sail IN the inlets which is suicide anyway). I was actually on the Outer Banks; just off Kill Devil Hills on Colington Island. Nice little harbour with deep-water canals where everyone kept his boat in the backyard. Sure saves on those marina fees!

Theis, the info on the jib is great. When crossing oceans, it's not a matter of "if" you hit heavy weather, but "when." So I'm gathering all the information I can. Looking through the archives, I have to admit the construction of the hull-deck joint was a shock, but then, they HAVE lasted for 40+ years thus far. I'll be very eager to see if any modifications have been made to the Ariel I'm going to look at tomorrow.

Cheers!

I concur with your comments about crossing oceans. But at least you have an inkling about what the weather will be and where it is coming from. On the Great Lakes, no one has an idea. For example, all week this week the forecasts are 40% chance of storms/t-storms, etc. That is about as close as you can come to NOAA not having a clue about what to expect (50%).

Coupled with an inherently incompetent and arrogant organization (National Weather Service in Romeoville, Illinois), the weather service becomes dangerous. The best one is that they curtail all regular broadcasts when there is severe weather in the area. With the exception of a very small area where there might be severe weather, it doesn't give anyone outside the small area any idea of what can be expected for the next couple hours. That is, definitionally, a dumb idea. Hopefully the clowns that devised that will subcomb to Darwinian theorems.

Then, too, their marine forecast recommendation in severe weather is to stay tuned to the local commercial radio/TV stations. When they give warnings, they will relate the marine warnings to county lines and roads ("north of rt. 22", for example). My charts do not show roads nor do they show county lines, unbeknowest to the National Weather Service. When there is a blast coming through, the warnings are to get off the water immediately and they blast that into your ear for a couple hours - as if a sailboat had a choice. And, unbeknowst to these ignoramouses, the most dangerous place to be at the advent of a storm is at the harbor entrance. So, since we have to sail as they did in the mid 1800s, we need to be prepared for anything on these little ponds - including being out for 24 hours or more before going into a port that is safe (a ship port with a turning basin).

So, the best thing out here is to read the clouds, and expect the worse. That way you won't be disappointed - but it does curtail the sailing a bit more than we would like.

Theis,

I agree, NOAA has a hard time prediciting the marine weather on the Great Lakes. Here on N. Lake Huron, the NOAA station out of the Gaylord area has recruited mariners as weather spotters. We have attended their weather classes for two years now. Very imformative. The guy who taught the mariner weather is a meteroligist who is also a Great Lakes sailor. He was very knowledgable. With the advent of tecnology these days, the mariner spotters can call in on their cell phones or relay a message throught the CG via the marine radio. So now at least we are getting weather warnings as they are happening coming usually from your area (the west). Gives us sailors over here a little more time to be prepared. The one thing that I hear from the meterologists in this area, is that between the water and the high/low land elevations, it really plays havoc with the weather. They say there is a waiting list to come to this area to do forecasting. I've lived in MI all of my life and the saying here is if you don't like the weather, wait ten minutes and it will change. :rolleyes: Also, the sailing season is just three months of bad ice fishing!

Sheesh, didn't know there was so much info here!
Spent a few hrs. last night looking at posts from 2002, and getting caught up. Don't know how i missed all this!! Thanks for the good heavy weather info.
I'd like to see more on sail choices/wind speeds. From what i gather, the full main should work up to about 20 knots? That might be pushing it for me. How about 15 for the first reef? I have two sets of reef points. As far as jibs, when do ya'll go down from the 150? About the same time? When it gets to howling in the 25+ range, we get pretty rough on the Columbia, which for me is more difficult than the wind. There's usually about 3 seconds between the 3-4' swells, which can stop us pretty dead head on. So it's a challange. Lately it's been blowing quite a bit, gusts in the 40+ range. I look at the wind website when we get back to see just what we experienced that day. Interesting.

I started out saturday with the small jib, (90-100%), and we were considering going up to the 150, when things picked up again. Glad we stayed small. I figure we can always put up more after getting out there if we want. Better to be conservative with my small crew. Took an experienced racer out that day, so we played around with the boat and sails some. I was actually hoping the wind would pick up a bit more, but it stayed in the 20knot range most of the day. I feel better now about taking her out in more wind, thanks, in part, to Theis and Ed's experiences related here. I know she'll take more than i want. ;)

Liz:
Good hearing from you again. I'll be up in your home port this summer - unless the weather cools my heels.

Your comments are interesting. A couple years ago, in the early morning while docked at North Manitou, I delayed my departure because of a curling cloud to the west. The NOAA forecasts were for a delightful day. It was only after all hell broke loose - and that includes darkness - that NOAA reported that "Doppler radar has spotted severe storms..." approaching the area. I could only think "Who needs Doppler radar for that. Why not look up at the sky for a more advanced technology?

So it is interesting that with all the satellites, Doppler radar, a seemingly unlimited budget, NOAA can not accomplish what seasoned spotters can do a couple hours beforehand, and, to make matters worse for mariners, has to rely on the commercial radio/tv stations to report local weather to mariners. The message to us that are out there - use common sense, and learn to read clouds and weather patterns - and then recognize that you could be wrong.

One other thing: The Canadians have it right. Their marine forecasts are informative telling mariners what is happening, where it is happening and why, unlike the NOAA blather which tend to be simply conclusionary alarms having little value other than to frighten.

Willie:
The guys in the Bay should be experts on relating wind and sail, but I'll lend my voice and be interested in what others opine. And I don't have an anerometer, so these are gut feels. Main and 150/170% genoa to about 12 mph. Main and 100% genoa or no main and the 150/170% from 12-20 mph. Main and storm (70%) 15 - 25 mph. Single reef main - storm 20 - 30 mph. Double reef main and storm 25 - 35. Over 35 mph, double reef main only.

For guys on the Bay I suspect those estimates that will seem like child's play. There will likely be a lot of variation in the opinions, and to each his own and the extent to which the skipper wants to bend the boat over. It also makes a difference whether the boat is in a race or cruising and whether the lead bars are in the keel. I find the boat goes best at about a 20 degree heel. Baring the really viscious weather (50 - 90 mph), the boat will take almost any reasonable blend of sails. The worst that I can foresee happening is that you will have a knockdown, and then you know you need to shorten sail.

Also, if you have too much sail, the fisherman's reef (luffing the main at the luff) can depower the boat and allow you to get things under control. That is also a good omen that it is time to shorten sail.

I'll be interested in what others have to say.

I will probably be looking at a commander tomorrow. Tell me more about this shocking hull/deck joint.
Jeff

Use the search button and type in Hull to Deck Joint for starters.

OK, the power has come back on. The cable modem service has returned, and I can now finish my reply to Theis that I started at 2:30pm. (It's now 10.) I'm absolutely spooked by the timeliness of this discussion. Fate works in mysterious ways.

At 3:05 this afternoon, just after I had hit the "Submit Reply" button with my orginal response, the worst and unquestionably FASTEST developing storm I've experienced in YEARS blew through here taking with it an 80-foot sycamore in the backyard, our deck table and umbrella, my tomato vines and several years of my mom's life. Someone else's deck umbrella landed in the driveway, but we don't know whose yet. Made for one d*mn exciting afternoon! Still, I'm less than thrilled now to have ANOTHER tree to cut up with the chainsaw.

So yes, I think this would be the ideal opportunity to bring up some summer weather safety discussion, either here or, better, in a new thread starting with Theis' comments about the Great Lakes. My original reply from earlier was:

I worked at a sailing site around 200 years ago with a guy who was also a pilot, and I must say this: Joe called the weather FAR better than any NOAA forecast ever could. He based all his calculations on upper- vs. lower-level wind directions. I'd try the aviation weather sites, do a little research and see what you can come up with. Here in Carolina, regardless of the ground wind direction, if it's blowing SW above 10,000 feet, you're better off doing woodwork in the garage in the afternoon, because thunderstorms are almost a given. To prove my point, it's 3pm, and I just heard a huge thunder boom outside! See how smart I am!!! :p

YIKES! Lightning too and the power just flickered, I'm GONE!!!!!!!

At that point, the modem died, and I heard mom shouting for help.

What REALLY got me was the SPEED that this storm came up. On the Outer Banks, we had two BIG advantages: 1) any thunderstorm had to cross the comparatively cool waters of the sounds before hitting the barrier islands losing a lot of punch in the process and 2) being on the east side of the water, we could always see storms coming. Now, I'm in the piedmont of Carolina where there is nothing but hot land and humidity and sight-lines of the average suburb. From the first distant thunder roll to the gust front that took down the tree was less than FIVE MINUTES. Around an hour later, I confirmed this with the doppler radar time-lapse. In not more than 10 minutes, the radar over my part of town went from nothing to that nasty purple color that comes after the deep red.

This was not pretty. We did, however, get a severe thunderstorm warning about 20 minutes after the finger of God struck down the tree. By then, the worst was over, but we still got 3/4" inch of rain in less than 30 minutes. (So much for dad's grass seed he planted yesterday.)

On the water, you usually get some warning unless you're unfortunate enough to get caught in a microburst or be right where the gust front descends from the roll cloud.

Has anyone experienced this on the water? And what have you done to save the ship and crew? With no more advanced notice than I got today, on the water I would have barely had my foulies on, let alone reefed the main or changed jibs, before 50+ knots of wind had laid me on my beam ends.

Fair winds,

J.

Call it a microburst, a tornado or a waterspout. Who knows. But this is what happened in a one mile passage from Rock Island Wisconsin to Washington Island Wisconsin.

The wind had been blowing heavily all day from the south, and late in the afternoon I headed out to Washington Island from Rock Island, protected from the seas by the north coast of Washington island - storm jib and double reefed main. The run should have taken no more than fifteen minutes. The skies were overcast but not dark - not as with an approaching thunderstorm. In the middle of the passage, without any warning whatsoever, the winds started veering faster than I could change course to head into them. The whole thing was over in what seemed like five minutes - too fast to even get the anchor out. We had been flattened - a complete knockdown. The mainsail was torn in half, and the horseshoe vang stripped off the boom The dinghy was upright but fully sunk. I had pockmarks all over my face from hail, but didn't realize that we were being hit by hail.

Solsken disappeared to viewers from shore watching us (we were surrounded by shoal waters to the east - deep waters to the west, cliffs to the north and rocky coastline to the south - all within a half mile), and all land disappeared during the interlude.

My suspicion was that it was a tornado, but the guy that did this to us, and the US weather service, never told us. Credit for thesse comments goes to my wife who reminded me of a few of the details - and, I am convinced, will never forget them.

Theis,

When you head this way, give me a shout. Maybe we can rendevous at Drummond or ? My husband & I would like to meet you. We are planning a short cruise up the St. Mary's river towards the end of the month. We will be on Drummond for a couple of days also. Our boat has been delayed being splashed as Mertaugh's boat hoist broke. We were supposed to have had it in the water by now. They are supposed to get it in hopefully this week. Then they will motor it over to Detour Harbor. We are planning on sailing it too Whitney Bay this upcoming weekend, but of course they are predicting thunderstorms all weekend. So we will have our eye on the sky.

I agree about the Canadians weather forecasts. The only thing I didn't care for was only a 24 hour forecast. Sometimes, I like getting an extended forecast, to know what might be coming in weather wise. We carry a weather card with us. It shows pictures of the sky and cloud formations. It is a handy reference. But I find it is true about all of the old nautical weather sayings. They are pretty much true. Chapman's covers a lot of those.

We have been caught a couple of times in fast moving systems. Once all h*ll broke loose just as the shelf cloud passed over us. The rain and wind was horizontal. We had dropped all sails, the outboard started and all foul weather gear on with the boat battened down. It was scary as it rolled over us. But we just got a few sprinkles of rain and no wind. We were in the lower straits, sailing NW to Mackinac Island. We seen it coming and was able to prepare us and the boat. Of course this was a few years ago, before we were weather spotters. NOAA had no warning. :eek:

Took her out today--the wind site says we were in solid 20 mph, with gusts to 30. Left the dock with single reefed main, had my smallest jib ready to hoist. (it's about 90% i'd guess. Pretty high cut, so that's just a guess) Must have got that 30 gust about the time i got it up, 'cause boy we headed around fast. Glad i had the downhaul rigged too. Got it down before anything bad happened! Whew.This solo sailing is interesting. So out we went with the reefed main, and i was suprised how well she actually will sail with no jib. Granted the upwind crawl into the chop (understatement!)was pretty slow, and wet, but we made steady progress. What a hoot!! Even sailed her back into the slip, stepped off and tied her off just like you're supposed to.

So, a couple questions....

Will a small storm jib help her make better progress to windward? And is there one that will keep her balanced, maybe a bit of weather helm, with a single reefed main? And still add some drive? If so, where do i get it, and what would the measurements be? Theis? Mike? Ed? Bill? Anyone? Thanks! :cool:

From here, it sounds like sail trim. The SF Bay fleet races in those winds with a 110% jib and "sometimes" a reefed main. Vangs, downhauls, outhauls and properly set track all help. Of course, the top rail will be under water . . :D

A good sail loft can build you a proper storm jib, if that's what you want. It's just a matter of percentages :rolleyes:

You are on target. It is a hoot - once everything gets stabiized. But the run up, getting on the open water, can be a bit intimidating.

But here are my two cents. When you reef the main, you are bringing the center of effort of the main forward - significantly. When you reduce the foresail to a storm jib, you are also bringing the center of effort forward significantly. The totality is a tremendous leward helm. As long as you can control yourself with the rudder, you're OK. But as you heel, the rudder becomes increasingly less effective, and when you are bent over, and the rudder is more lifting water than turning the boat, I don't think you want to play with a leward helm.

When you reef the main, you are also reducing the luff, which is the driving part of the sail on a tack. But getting the sail down from the top (reducing the luff, not the reduction of the sail area) is a principal purpose of reefing because that reduces the leverage of the sail.

The forward drive is lessened even more with a fisherman's reef, where the main is partially luffing. When my drive is sufferin I rig the iron jenny to supplement the sail power - particularly heading into choppy seas. It gives me not only more foreward way, but a higher level of tack.

I do sail frequently with only the big genoa (170%) (no main) and the craft really drives. Good sail, and reasonably well balanced, but I think your winds were perhaps too much for that. Bill's suggestion of sailing with only the masthead (I assume) 100% jib sounds neat - but I haven't tried it. I have tried the 100% and a reefed main and that is fine - but too much for more extreme winds. That is the skipper's call.

As for the angle of heel, I don't think you gain much speed or drive having the rail deep in the water, but I have sailed the Ariel, for pleasure, with the windows being washed by the water surface.

Then you get into the issue of fear factor. What is your level of pain? And, in that regard, as one old timer cautioned me a few years ago as I was heading out into stuff that was pretty tough, "Remember, Peter, sailing is supposed to be fun". I haven't forgotten that since then and it has served me well. But then, in recent years I also have concluded that I am not immortal and perhaps that has also made a difference.

It is supposed to be fun!! That's what the admiral tells me everytime!
She told me that yesterday when i headed to the boat to install the new depth sounder/fish finder. "Have fun" she says! So after i got it installed, i decided to have fun! And it's fun trying to figure this sail trim business out.
Thinking i need to turn her into a yawl! lol Get some weather helm!

So what you're saying is a storm jib won't do much? :confused:

What I'm saying is that, in my opinion, a storm jib is worse than "it won't do much". It is potentially dangerous. You can do a lot of testing with reasonably steady heavy air, and perhaps a multiperson crew. I'd be interested to see what you come up with. But I would jump ship (that is, if I had my wife's permission to jump ship) if someone tried doing it in a storm, where the maximum wind velocity was unpredictable.

Here's my two cents worth on reducing sail, though my experience is more offshore, heave-to tactics than just a romp across the Bay for giggles in a gail. :)

On a masthead sloop rig, as you reef the main, you do indeed, as Theis said, bring the center of lateral effort (CLE) further forward with each reef. Even a properly cut, custom storm jib will do the same. So by the time you get down to the third reef, especially on a boat the size of an Ariel, the CLE is SO far forward owing to the foot of the sail being SO short, that it's doing more against you than for you. This is where the long foot of the storm trysail comes in. Combined with a storm jib, this will allow most fuller-keeled vessels to heave to sufficiently. The OPTIMUM configuration on a sloop would be a solent stay on which the storm jib is bent combined with the trysail. This arrangement centers the CLE, calms the helm and stops the boat dead in a gale with only a miniscule leeward drift.

For that romp across the Bay, I've found that masthead sloops, regardless of their hull design, sail well in a blow with the working jib alone since they (masthead rigs) derive most of their drive from the headsail anyway. Fractional rigs are a whole other world.

I guess I need to move to the Frisco Bay I guess, because here in NC, it's 95 degrees, and we can't get a puff of wind to save our lives.

Good luck!

Jeremy

With a storm tri-sail you need to remove the main, don't you? The problem there, at least for our blows, is that it would take so much time. A quick reef is near mandatory on the big pond out here (Lake Michigan). But I hav thought about that as an option.

What about hanging a balancing sail off the backstay, as some boats do at anchor to keep the boat from sailing back and forth,? The rig would then be the anchor sail, the storm jib, and no main. Does anyone do that? Any experience?

Usually the trysail goes on it's own track next to the main track and the main stays where it is .

So, with my loose footed mainsail, I could use the slot for the storm trisail. Or is a storm trisail also loose footed? What about the outhaul? Do you just tie it on to the boom end somehow or does the outhaul need to be adjustable. And then on the mast, would a second track be placed next to the main track, but above the point on the track above the sail head slider. Or is the storm trisail tied around the mast or hooked around the mast with rings? Interesting.

It could be attached to the mast with parrels (beads) on line instead of hoops, the tack is always higher than the clew and it is sheeted to the deck not the boom ( you dont want the boom swinging about in a blow) .

no one wants to change mains in a blow so it is generally excepted that it is simpler/easier therefore safer/better to have the trisail mounted on it's own track to hoist.I've seen them sheeted in aft through the spinnaker leads back to the winch.

I looked at our masts today , and it ain't room for a second track on that small mast. I'd prefer the 2nd track too. The parrels work good, I have used them on several masts , make them out of lignum vitae , about a 2" ball.

Mike,

What did you just say? I've done a bit of reading, but, I ain't never heard no words like them uttered... :confused:

Never heard of parrel beads, it is what keeps the gaff jaws around a mast . A centuries old technique that still works today.

Speaking of gaff jaws (I am still trying to figure out what parrell beads are - and having accepted that my mind can never fathom such a concept, figure we should continue on), I now recognize why gaff rigging was so benign in heavy weather, compared to the sloop rig. With the gaff you can easily get rid of the top part of the sail to reduce leverage by dropping the angle of the gaff. When you reef the sail, the center of effort does not move forward significantly as it does with a sloop rig. The gaff rig sail is basically a rectangle when the gaff lowered, and a triangle with the gaff raised. What an ingenious innovation for heavy weather. Are gaff rigs really a thing of the past?

So far as I know only Michael Kasten is able to talk about gaff rig in modern terms. Nearly all the rest seem to be history buffs. Of course the rig has a lot to do with the hull shape it usually goes with. And modern boats are obsessed with keeping weight off the mast.

Ok, found a picture,

These are MUCH bigger then I was thinking, and it seems to me that they would wrap around the mast but you should get the idea.

Let's see if I can get it to display, otherwise I will re-format it later.

The gaff rig, especially the gaff cutter, has much to recommend itself for cruising. While it is least weatherly rig you could imagine, the whole point of cruising is to reach or go downwind, and a gaff cutter on a reach is untouchable. And as Ebb points out, its heavy weather capabilities are unmatched. Modern daysailors prefer the simple bermuda sloop for ease of handling and upwind performance, but Lyle Hess didn't design all those great gaff boats of his for giggles. They WORK.

For those who were wondering, attached are a diagram and foto of storm trysail setup.

J.

A penny more, here. Larry Pardey (with a Lyle Hess cruiser) has a heavy weather CD in which he shows his technique of heaving to with a Long Footed trisail that has a set of reef points!

I recommend the CD, First, to find out what a great sailor does in Heavy Weather, his set up is different than the usual stuff on the net. Second, the CD is made and produced by them, so it directly affects their cruising kitty. Third, the music's pretty good too.

I admit to being a 'newbie' to a gaff rig, but I do have a couple of comments on them as my 'trailor sailor' right now for home waters is a suncat with a gaff rig. 1st..they don't like to point too high...50-55 degrees (is there a little dgree key on a type writer?) but they will go to weather that much.2nd..they stand up well in a breeze..better than I expected. I assume that it is a combination of a much lower center of force on the sail and their ability to naturally spill air off the top portion of the sail in a gust. I also find playing with sail shape fun on mine and ya just can't beat the looks of a gaffer !! ps..down wind or any point off wind they ARE fast! Has any one ever converted an Ariel??

Took a look at their website, thanks Ebb.

I was familure with their books, but the site is great.

The link is; http://landlpardey.com/


Mike,

I had planned to use parrel beads as for a tiny storm Jib but after reading this thread I have now abandoned that idea. I like them for the trisail though. I am headed to the boat now, the only obstruction that immedately comes to mind is the masthead light (mine seems pretty low to me). Might be high enough though.

Thanks,

Anyone who thinks gaff rig wont go to weather , has been sailing on the wrong boats . I had a gaff yawl that would point as high as my friends Catalina 30 , just not as fast on that point of sail . It is a common misconception that gaff rig wont point , held mostly by folks who have never sailed gaffers , or only sailed Tahiti ketches or tubby little dinghies.
A proper designed and tuned gaft rig will point as high as our Ariel , it just wont be the best point of sail , reaching is.
If you don't have running backstays on a gaffer and know how to use them , then it wont point worth a crap .
I had the distinct pleasure of being aboard the gaff schooner Bluenose II out of Halifax NS when we were challanged by a modern 60 or 70 foot ocean racer. Not only did we sail above them and steal all their air, we out distanced them so much they gave up and turned away , 15 knots going to weather is awesome on a monohull , 18+ on a reach is almost like sex .

Commander Pete,
The Captain and Crew of the Faith would like to say thanks for your support!
And we'd like to conjecture that an Alberg designed hull can CERTAINLY stand the strains and stresses of a little dip for the combings now and then.... Sure it's frightening when a fifth of your normally admergent hull gets a slight sluice - but it's gold to stand perpendicular to the normally vertical deck! Now, keep in mind, this isn't a bathtub - the kids aren't invited (if aboard, keep them below - I can remember looking out the portholes of Faith directly into the deep blue at age 6) but by all means the boat can handle it. We've taken the 70 degree heel, all hands alert (which means hanging on with a will), multiple times in the last few weeks, not to mention the last 40 years. It's not a question of structural integrity, it's a question of trust in the guy on the tiller. Hurrah!!! or Ahhh!!!
We prefer the Hurrah angle: warnings first, good grips second, leeward rinse third.
It's not brave if you know what you're doing - it's fun!
It's not brave if you don't know what you're doing - it's lunacy.
Don't scare the crew...unless they pay you to...
Sean

Ahhhh....there you are. Welcome to our little clubhouse. We've been enjoying your most excellent adventure.

From Panama you take a right.

Our San Fran Boys should leave a light on for you and keep some beer on ice.

No running back stays...or forsail for that matter on my little catboat gaffer Mike,so I guess 50-55Degrees to weather is about all to expect.You are one LUCKY man to get to sail on the Bluenose...that has to be THEE finest and one of the fastest ole girls ever!! And dam pretty to boot!!!! Kinda sad that the original ended up on a reef being used as a dam cargo boat in its later years.How did ya manage to get sailing on her.?? I've been on board but only at the dock...it truely is a piece of Canadian history...never beaten in a race..it HAS to be the ultimate rush sailing on her.When they built the Bluenose 2 they had her original captain at the helm for the first sail.How did we get from heavy weather onto gaffers onto the Bluenose ?? Sounds like this conversation should be finished sitting on the back of an Ariel with an 'icey' in hand ...and more in the cooler!

Over the last 30+ years I have known the Capt and crew of Blunose II quite well and acted as there 'local' liasion when they were on Chesapeake Bay . I have stayed with them when visiting NS , partied with them and been treated quite well by them over the years. I wish I were in Mohone Bay right now instead of sweltering on ChesBay !

I think she's a Stink-pot rider at heart, but she does like the nice days! :eek:

With regards to dousing the jib or a chute for that matter, try a sleeve, several companys make them, North has one I think. As for the main 120' or so of 1/4" line and some rope-work will make you a nice "Dutchman" that you can haul up with your topping lift (Or you could rig new hardware if you want them separate.)

I need to rig preventers myself! :D

Yikes.......

A comment. That looks good but the portion at the lower right doesn't look like it is adequately grounded.

Lets say you're sailing along and get hit with a mighty blast of wind, starting to knock the boat over some. What do you do? Do you feather up into the wind or bear off away from it?

I don't think I've seen this issue discussed.

My choice depends on what point of sail I'm on.

Closer to the wind I'll feather up. The boat wants to do that anyway. Its difficult to bear off unless you dump the mainsheet.

Further off the wind I'll head more downwind.

Ease the main in either case.

Assuming you are not flying a spinnaker, let the main fly (or luff it if that will help - It is called a "fisherman's reef") and bring the boat upwind. Never bear downwind! You will wind up going on a reach - the worst of possibilities with the wind blowing you directly over, and then as you fall further down wind if you can, you may lose control (broach) and possibly do a flying jibe and, with that, possibly taking down your rig in the worst of cases. Further, if headed downwind you have too much pressure on the mainsail to reefr it or take it down. You're stuck.

With a spinnaker up (or gennaker) you go downwind so the mainsail blankets the spinnaker so you can get the spinnaker down.

With the 100% genoa, you'll need to ease off on that or the genoa will carry you downwind regardless of what you really want to do.

But rule of thumb, - always head upwind and if needed douse sails.

Hope these couple of suggestions are of interest, if nothing else.

A short clip of what some may call heavy weather sailing. I would call it peging the fun meter...ed



http://youtube.com/watch?v=4-PpU8MUb...elated&search=

Best part is when they get tossed around like rag dolls.

Good times.

Here's a Tripp 40 "Amuse Bouche" in the North Sea

'We had an anxious moment when we
slue around into the wind like a surfboarder
on the billowing crest of a coamer
so that we could douse the sails
to have lunch.'

Did a little more experimenting with heaving-to yesterday.

It works best for me with a double reefed main (no headsail).

When the wind is around 15 kts., I'll sheet the main in tight and leave the tiller alone.

In higher winds I'll lash the tiller to leeward and maybe ease the main a bit.

The boat makes very slow progress to windward, but can't come through the wind.

Seems to me that the wind and waves push the bow off and a backed headsail isn't helpful when you've shortened the mainsail

A couple points. I don't think what you are doing is heaving to. You are shortening sail. To heave to defintionally, I believe, you need both sails. One backs the other. What you are doing is shortening sails until there is too little mainsail to drive the boat upwind and around.

You really need to balance your boat with a full main - particularly in the Great Lakes where you can get an unexpected violent blast. You won't always have time to double reef. Double reefing comes after you have heaved to to steady your stiuation.

You may have a different combo for each of the levels of sails.

I have found with the Ariel that a full main and a 100% jib balance well in a heave to. I can also balance the 100% with a single reef main (80%). I don't think I can heave to in anything other than playing around with a 170% genoa. That big sail becomes a lateen rig when the main is luffing

I haven't tried the balancing yet with a double reef (60%), but I suspect my 70% storm would work OK.

When it really gets violent and I have time, I do what you did, get rid of the jib entirely, double reef the main, and sail the boat - Generally on a beat. If the wind is super violent, I can luff the reefed main - but that still is not heaving to. That is sailing.

I tried rolling out more or less backed headsail. The boat wanted to be beam-to that way. Have to fiddle around some more.

I've seen pictures of boats (Hobart Race?) flying just a storm jib. Wonder how that works.

All in the balance I guess

You are right it is in the balance. The key difference between the Ariel/Commander and other boats in this regard is that the A/C has a full keel, starting largely just aft of the mast step, and a rudder after that keel. Other current vessels, such as the Hobart racers, have a fin keel about where the mast step is, and a deep spade rudder at the far end of the hull, which provides for much more leverage than the A/C rudder gets.

With the A/C keel design, the bow can fall off very easily, while the stern stays in place. The other guys tend to pivot around the fin keel. The A/C rudder doesn't have the leverage to counteract an unbalanced foresail. The positive side, of course, is that the A/C design is more stable and less sentitive to the helmsman sneezing at the wrong moment.

Another difference is that more recent vessels hae a higher aspect ratio. The key to heavy weather sailing is to get the sail down, thereby reducing torque. On the A/C, if you bring it down only 40% (about the practical max), there is still a great deal of sail up - along the boom but the peak of the sail is way down. Do that with a high aspect rig, and 40% still leaves the head way up in the air.

So, returning to the A/C, the key is to balance the rig to the best of your ability. Since the mast is forward of the center of resistance, a reduced main, with the luff beng diminished, and the outhaul being shortened, still balances. Put up a jib in addition, and the reduced sail at the outhaul with more sail up forward, creates an imbalance and draws the A/C to leward, perhaps uncontrollably. Drop the main entirely, while flying a 70% storm jib, and everything is way forward of the center of resistance (the balance point) and your directional options are extremely limited.

When heaving to, the jib is actually backwinding the mainsail (Heaving to is not much more than coming around without releasing the jib sheet - that is how it is done - and what results is you go into irons). The mainsail is trying to force you upwind, and the jib is trying to force you off. The two are balanced fighting one another, with the help of the helm held hard to weather. the result is that you remain going slowly 20 or 30 degrees off the wind with both sails full so they don't bang and the boat largely upright.

For jib I used a simple downhaul. 5/16 line hooked on stay above top hank, led down through abouple of hanks along the way, through a small block at the stemhead and back to the cabin top. release halyard, pull in downhaul and the jib falls to the foredeck in a hurry. If you even out hte sheets it stays pretty much midships.

Another method I have used on someone elses boat is a ;Geary or Gerry' rig. Run the line up through the block at the stem, then through the hank nearest to the height of the clew, then over and through the vlew back to the hank above yhe one you just went through and up to a hook which clicks on above the top hank. When you haul this line the jib not only comes down it wads up into a bundle at the stem. It would work best, I think if 'turning rings were sewn onto the sail itself instead of going through those hanks, but it did work, and you remain in the cockpit until you are ready to handle the saill

The previous post was made in a thread about reefing, I haven't a clue how it wound up on this thread. ??????????

A very nasty wave in this video clip


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0fQ1...elated&search=

This is a fun thread. Rereading whilst waiting for a client... Also just re-read Tania Aebi's Maiden Voyage ( http://www.powells.com/biblio/1-9780345410122-15 ) Sailing comfortably the other day in 15kts and L-O-N-G 4-6 footers, I was curious about the... terminal capacities of our boats. I know the Ariel has sailed around the world (at least I think I know that to be true) and therefore capable. Cockpit volume would probably make the Commander unsafe for that type of voyage, but the hull and displacement must make her sister sea worthy enough. I know you salt water sailors have significant seas under your belts. The Great Lakes are certainly capable - gale warnings here today with 35kts and 8-12' seas) Nonetheless Aebi was talking about riding out mast-height waves in her Contessa 26 (http://www.contessa26.net/component/...mitstart,0/)in the Atlantic, and a knock-down under bare poles in the Med. Holy Crap! I am curious about others' experiences at the fringes! Just idle rambling, but I would love to have experience of some nasty-sea sailing. Not that I plan to sail in it on purpose, but if I ever encountered nastiness inadvertently, I would like to survive to tell the story over a cold beer.

There have been a number of postings and newsletter articles on long ocean voyages in Ariels and Commanders. We first ran into Zoltan Gurko, who sailed from Los Angeles to the Mediterranean (NOT through the Canal). His story even appeared in Sail Magazine. Here is one of the threads: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=395

Next, an Ariel showed up in Australia. Seems Geoff’s Uhuru was sailed there by Tony Benado. Here is the thread: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=887

The, of course, there was the Sailing to Hawaii adventure:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=927

There are a couple of other threads (probably should be merged) that discuss ocean voyages.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=777

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...read.php?t=192

Zoltan's voyage in a Commander to the Med from Ventura CA is required reading for any A/C leaving the dock.

He carried cargo in his cockpit, which cut down on volume some, but there's still the weight of the cans and the liquid in them. Seem to remember it was mostly jerry fuel cans. Maybe a deflated dinghy too.

But he did say, in regards to taking aboard green water in rough weather,
that whatever got into the cockpit was quickly thrown right back out again!

Have Ariel's circumnavigated?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Che

Have Ariel's circumnavigated?

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Maybe . . . but we've yet to hear.

Not to forget Commander "Faith"

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussi...ead.php?t=1017