How tough IS the bottom of our keel?

[willie]

Went for a motor /no-sail today, river trials with the nissan. Ran great, moved the boat right along, decided to do a little exploring across on the Washington side. They put in a new rv park, boat ramp and dock, so thought it would be a good time to check it out. Part of the indian/fish treaty deal out here. Anyway, found out it was at least 6' deep in there, so tied up and checked out the place for summer fun with the kids. All was well, water like glass, so couldn't have sailed anywhere anyway.Upon departure, i was just puttering along at idle, thinking of the Irving Johnson on the beach at Oxnard, and how i ought to maybe head a bit more offshore (can you use that for a river? lol) when sure enough, thumpity thump bump bump. Rocks. About 3' submirged. Depth sounder says 6'. Guess it hasn't seen the rocks yet! (make a note--mount transponder up fwd. a bit more--like 10' ahead of the bow!) Maybe it's a new vent from Mt. ST. Helens! Or just a continuation of the little rock point there to port? More likely. Humm, not on my old chart. Crap. Always wondered what i'd do WHEN this happened. Thought maybe it was just one lucky bugger, so went to the shrouds and rocked her side to side, no luck. Man, how DO you unstick a 5200lb. boat when it's high centered?! Looked like a good time to heat the tea water, and think about it, as i was still upright, and no breakers coming over the side, etc. Rivers are nice, most of the time. And it's actually just a big lake. But i digress.
WEll, i could lighten ship, but kinda looks like the only thing i could pitch would be the stinkin' outboard, which really crossed my mind! Never had this trouble SAILING! ONly other thing was about 200 lbs. of me, which really wasn't an option in 46 degree water. NO way i'm getting wet! So how about swinging the boom out, with me on it, tipping her more? No way am i trusting that little 1/4'' topping lift. (46 degree water enters mind again) So poking around with my 11' sweep, seems like i'm through the worst of it, open water ahead. I WAS heading out, just happend to get in behind this little bit o rock!
So now i'm thinking about blowing up the rubber raft, and hauling out the 25lb cqr a 100 yrds. or so, just like i read in a book somewhere, and winching her on ahead. The thought of blowing it up in the cockpit, and me getting in it, without getting wet (did i mention 46 degrees?) doesn't really sound too great. More tea. Wonder what a good stiff breeze would do? Now thoughts of spending a night out here surface, guess i better call the admiral at home. Glad i left the kids home too. Wonder how they'd react? Maybe some other day! Humm, forgot the cell phone. She'd just worry anyway if i did call. Ok, what are my options here? Call on the vhf? NO way. NOt today. Maybe tomorrow! Well, i think the anchor thing might work. Hey, this little 10 lbs dansforth stuck in here behind the raft bag might do it. I could just give it a good heave, and maybe it will grab good between these ******* rocks!
So that's what we did. And it worked. Ran the line through the bow chalk, back to a winch, and winched her up tight. Tight as i could. No movement. So i go up fwd, and just bend down to grad the line, and away we go! Yahoo!! Hope the dang shoe doesn't hit. Maybe with me up here it won't.
Well, the rudder still works, guess it must be ok. Humm. That wasn't too bad. Guess we better see if there's any water coming in anywhere. Don't see any.
So much for my grounding. (rocking?) Better go motor around some more, out in the DEEP water!

So, do i need to worry about the bottom, or did i just scrape off the bottom paint, maybe a bit of epoxy barrier coat? Guess i'll wait for the water to warm up a bit and find out. Might be August. If there's any water then. Did i mention the Columbia is about 2' lower than it was in August, the last time i was over the rocks? Just a couple factors contributed to my incident (old chart, lower water level, stupidity? lol) HOpe the Irving Johnson is as lucky as i was. :(

[c_amos]

Bill,

I hate to hear of your scuffing up that beautiful paint job on your hull, but I seriously doubt you have much to worry about.

I read of Zoltan's Commander being bashed against a reef by crashing waves for a prolonged period of time...... making horrible noises...... Him thinking it surely was being torn to shreds the whole time..... and coming away with just a few scratches and a tweaked rudder. :eek:

Thankfully, the New River (and most of my sailing grounds) are mud/sand. #226's keel is kept frightenly clean by the method you speak of here. :D

[c_amos]

I read of Zoltan's Commander being bashed against a reef by crashing waves for a prolonged period of time...... making horrible noises...... Him thinking it surely was being torn to shreds the whole time..... and coming away with just a few scratches and a tweaked rudder. :eek:

The account;
”At 0558, I awoke to surf swamping my transom and The Way’s keel grinding through coral. My chart was seven miles off, and the current was much heavier than anticipated. There were only a few minutes before I would be slamming against the sharp cliffs of Gaua, destroying and flooding my yacht.

I jumped in the cockpit and tried to steer the boat through the surf. When I made it to the inside where the breakers were smaller, the water became deeper again but not enough for me to stop grinding. My keel drew 4 feet, but the depth was only 3 feet. With every new wave, my boat lurched atop the coral, sounding the worst crashing noises a sailor could imagine……..”


Read the rest here (post #16 of this thread) (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=395)

[frank durant]

hi Willie I suspect the only thing damaged was your paint.This past feb. I drilled a couple of 3/32 holes in the forward base of the keel to drain some trapped water...1 1/4 inchs thick ! ! I doubt a little bump and grind did much to that ! Keep motoring. ps..what hp is your motor? Frank#50 ;)

[ebb]

Ariel 338 MAY have similar thickness on the very bottom edge of the keel. I would not bet on it. When the encapsulated keel cavity was drained and filled there was plenty of opportunity to visibly see the thickness of the hull.

The thickness of the hull was never more than 3/8".

In the back of the keel forward of the rudder there may be a too high percentage concentration of polyester to fiberglass for good strength.



An Interphase probe was installed low in the stem requiring a fairly large hole for the sensor. The thickness of the stem was just about the same.

[frank durant]

Ebb When I was drilling drain holes on #50 , 2 holes on the side of the keel , both approx. 7in up from the base , showed a thickness of 3/8 - 7/16. I installed a new through hull for a raw water pick up for the sink just before the "turn to the bilge" and it showed 5/8. I suspected the 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 I found at the forward base of the keel was due to overlap of roving . ??? Any thoughts? :confused:

[Bill]

It should be noted that in earlier numbered boats the hull thickness may have been greater than in the later numbered boats.

[ebb]

There you go Frank.
Very very good quality polyester obviously was used by Pearson in the '60s.
Grinded a whole lot on the laminate and it is real tough stuff. The resin to glass schedule to my amatuer eye looks right every accessable surface inside the hull. I've seen no puddling or starving. The only real problem with saturation (and fit) was at the lazarette bulkhead - everyelse the laminate is good and strong.

Along with the stringer and its tabbing it is probable that the tabbing used by the factory to hold the cabin sole and settees and bulkheads in adds significant stiffness and strength to the hull. Guess the schedule for the hull laminate totaled out at 3/8s with tabbing and overlaps adding 1/8" or more in places.

Navy did tests a decade ago on old frp barges they had. (Have to assume the polyester was similar to Pearson's.) No deterioration in overall strength was found. Would think the more active hull of an old sailboat would be a good indicator. In itself the laminate is as strong as the material can get, imco.
On the right reef, or picked up and thrown at a piling by a comber, I would call on the luck of 'The Way' and a pinch or two of 'Ave Maria' to save our butts.

[frank durant]

Bill , Ebb I'm sittin here thinking and when I drilled for a new head discharge the hull was 3/8. What I found was VERY inconsistant thickness's. Forward 3/8 just below the waterline ,forward high on the topsides,my anchor locker drain hole 3/8 , aft 5/8 below waterline at the turn or the bilge ,side of keel 3/8-7/16 , and the 1 1/8 at the forward base.???????But back to the original question.....at low speed I still doubt much damage other than paint. :confused:

[willie]

Frank, it's a nissan NS5B. 5hp long shaft 2stroke, weighs 44 lbs.Through the prop exhaust, no problem with the lid closed yesterday. Very little exhaust at all noticable.

I think where she ran up on the rock is a pretty solid and tough area.(the boat! rock too for that matter!)
I remember drilling drain holes around the keel while on the trailer, but couldn't get to the VERY bottom. You know, what she sits on. I can imagine it being pretty darn thick under that lead, having an idea of the mold, glass, resin...building process. .and the overlap you speak of. It supports the whole weight of her on the hard, so can't imagine it doing much in the water where the majority of the boat is still afloat. But we are talking HARD basalt rock here. And maybe 1/2 knot. 5 knots? Yeah, i can imagine some damage.
How hard is coral?

If i did hole her, the ballast cavity would fill up first, right? Guess if she's still afloat when i go down tomorrow, i'll feel better. Sure a sick feeling hearing and feeling her hit. I can't imagine being the skipper of a 90' schooner, 30 yrds. off the beach and having it happen. Churn churn.
I see they got her off last night. ;)

[Mike Goodwin]

"There are two kinds of sailors, those who have run aground and liars !"

Welcome to the club!

If you haven't run aground , you haven't done enough sailing.

[ebb]

Frank, A frp sailboat should gradually get thicker from the sheer on down. 338 is not much more than 1/8" at the seam. But seemingly only getting to 3/8" down in the keel. That is what is so disconcerting, 338 seems to be very conservatively layered, if you can call it that. Even the transom is barely 5/16 in the center, fattening out in the corners and the tabbing across the top.

The hull/deck seam is thickened by the mat tabbing. (On 338 the toerail molding is now filled flush to the inside of the deck.) A test hole thru the topside in a chainplate area yeilded 3/16"
There is considerable factory tabbing of the cabin decks, bulkheads, settees, stringers, although the tabs seldom go further than 4-5" from a joint, which may accouint for varying thicknesses of the hull in proximity. The old cockpit drain holes showed the hull to be around 3/8s.

I feel a little better that the keel cavity is filled with epoxy and there is now a built-in watertite tank running the length of the cabin over the ballast in the turn of the bilge. 338's (supposedly) lightly built hull will have all its furniture tabbed in and probably a layer of 20oz xmatt (about 1/16" thickness) most areas below the waterline. Insurance???

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++

Maybe somebody knows just how hard or sharp coral calcium is? Probably harder and sharper in the tropics! What will it do to the hull of an A/C? Has anybody seriously run onto rocks? What damage occured? Pictures? More than curious, would like to hear and see what the A/C hull can take!!!

[Hull376]

My dad was initiated into the "I grounded her" club in the late 70's off of Johnson Island near Marblehead in Lake Erie. Wacked our Ariel really hard on a limestone boulder. Minimal damage to the keel, but the rudder was another matter.

[Theis]

Going aground is part of a day's work, and the Ariel takes it well. On the St. Mary's River going into Lake Superior we went aground at full speed on an uncharted rock (granite up there, none of this soft limestone or coral) hard enough to send my wife to the hospital (she doesn't sail any more for some reason).

I don't run aground intentionally, but because of the Ariel keel, and the way the boat is built, I take her places others, with their fin keels and spade rudders, wouldn't dare go. Just, when you touch, try to touch softly, when there are no seas.

But I do have to recount the story of when #82 was pulled off the beach by the Coast Guard, after been pushed up there by a passing ferry, and the Coast Guard whatever said "Any boat that has been grounded should be put into the dumpster" So here I am 30 years later. But I can empathiize with your reaction

Don't worry about it. It doesn't make any differenc anyway if the keel fills up with water - unless you are a racer and don' t want the extra weight. And if you have a hole in the keel shell, that will drain the water automatically when the boat is pulled for the winter.

[c_amos]

This morning I as was re-reading Kurt's account of bringing Katie Marie home, I came across the following excerpt;

"Now, some folks have a strong aversion to running aground. I do too, when circumstances warrant it, but I'm not scared of boat-touching-dirt when there is nothing to be scared of. My only concern was large wakes, but there was very little traffic this day, so I felt we would be alright, and soon Katie would float again, swinging head to anchor and wind, probably in 20-30 minutes. I probably could have backed off under engine power; I'd been half expecting to polish the keel on the bar anyway, and so had been moving at a drift when we got upon it. However, being a relative professional at this style of intentional grounding has its merits, and I think I could even describe it as a "technique", if forced to take a position on it by some argumentative boating types. Different strokes for different folks, and all that. Anyway, it served the purpose, and in about 25 minutes I felt Katie lift and start to turn into the wind, a floating boat again. I was halfway through getting ready for the next leg, so I watched for a few minutes to see that the Fortress, self-proclaimed "Worlds Best Anchor", would hold us steady, and, seeing that it did, continued my tasks."




Drawn from;

Link to Kurt's Log 'Katie Marie comes Home' (http://liquid-epiphany.com/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=8&MMN_position=18:18)


(An excellent read by the way).

As a fellow 'relative professional' at running aground, I would dare say that the sand in the New river does a nice job of keeping the bottom of my keel clean. http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

[Robert Lemasters]

When Mike Goodwin and I removed and filled the through hulls on Commander #105 the hull was more than 1" thick closer to 1 1/2 " and the glass seemed like new. I have run aground hard at full speed and there was no damage to keel, the 6 hp Nissan 4 stroke was able to back out with some little difficulty. Note that my good ol' boat survived having another bigger boat on top of it and crushing waves and all kind of hits from wrecked piers and other boats during hurricain a couple of years ago that sank or severly damaged most newer boats in and around same marinia. This is one very tough old boat, very much heavier then new ones of same length today with such sweet lines too. I will be posting photos soon as I get the mast back on and deck painted. :o

[eric (deceased)]

most of the older fiberglass boats of any brand were built stronger than todays boats.at the marina where I was for hurricaine jean last year the marina was totally destroyed.many of the newer most recently built boats were pulled off the bottom in pieces.a brand new catalina 30 was basically split in half by wave action upon a piling.my 1967 islander wayfarer was obviously pounding on a piling by the same wave action yet remarkably remained afloat suffering only major cosmetic damage only :confused: