The album of Ariel #422 [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

epiphany

04-07-2005, 04:11 PM

Woke up this morning at 6:30AM for my first full day as a liveaboard onboard an Ariel. That's kind of late for me to sleep onboard, but dawn broke behind the clouds, and it stayed a bit darker than usual. Last night, I got the starboard settee bunk to myself, while the CrewDogs took the V-berth (although Buffett came down sometime in the night for a while - I remember a wet nose in the face early in the AM). They like the new boat, although they need helping up and down the companionway.

It was kind of chilly last night, so I had both hatchboards in while I slept, leaving the sliding hatch cracked back 8 or 10 inches for a light breeze. This morning, I stuffed a drink coozee in between the boards, and it opened up a slit about 4" wide right at eye level. Standing at the companionway, coffee cup in hand, peering out and down the length of Winyah Bay, I felt right at home, and I smiled at my new boat.

Thank you, Mr. Alberg. Your ideas live on, as part of my Dream. :)

After coffee, I started on The Work. I made up a list of things that needed doing more or less right away, staring into space, down towards the cabin sole, inbetween jotting my tasks down. That's when I realized what I'd do first. I broke out a sheet of 100 grit, got down on hands and knees, and gave the sole a good abrasive cleaning, followed by a couple thick coats of teak oil. While I had the oil out, I went ahead and wiped down all the other teak and mahogany in the main cabin, and now she's just a little bit prettier belowdecks, and I've accomplished my first task in her restoration.

I've some things I'll be asking about soon, I need to take some pics to show you all what it is I'm going to be asking about. Katie's in great shape for a somewhat aged lady, but there is a lot I can do to make her even better. I'm looking forward to it, to seeing her sparkle and shine again, and to feel her come alive under the pull of full sails. Ain't it great? :D

c_amos

04-07-2005, 05:55 PM

Ain't it great?

Yup.

Sure is. :)

commanderpete

04-08-2005, 06:33 AM

Did you teach those pups to sail yet?

Gotta earn their keep

epiphany

05-06-2005, 06:34 PM

Nothing fancy to show y'all picture-wise, really, just another angle on Katie in her slip. I've been busy, though.

I pulled her handrails, coamings, winch bases, etc (all the cockpit wood except the tiller), and am in the process of refinishing it all in a proper manner, as befits a beatifully aging Lady. Her companionway and handrails were finished with some type of urethane, I think, while all the wood around the cockpit was done with Cetol, so I wanted to bring it all together for commonality of look, and ease of upkeep. Katie has both mahogany and teak, so I'm finishing them clear, no stain, and letting the color of the wood determine her look.

I've heard from several folks that the various urethanes, if they start failing, fail completely, and, after the fun involved in stripping all of the various PO's types of coatings, I'll not risk that. Too bad though, as Katie already had urethane on the companionway area. Knowing that, and being an eager beaver, I'd jumped the gun on the refinishing project, and only heard of the potential failure after I'd bought some urethane and applied it to the little lazarette hatch.:rolleyes: I came really close to trying a product called "Bristol Finish" (actually bought the stuff, but after leaving the store, realized...well, read on), but my local MegaSuperMarineStore only had the interior type of that product (ah - no UV protection! I took it back, having learned that it pays to read the tiny letters...), so I chose the more traditional route and will redo all of the brightwork with varnish, as it can be maintained on-the-fly whenever needed.

I'm leaving the companionway alone for right now (it's in fine shape), but everything else was taken down to bare wood (lots of fun taking off who knows how many years of various types of sealant goo in the "hidden" areas). That was an adventure in and of itself - after trying various options, my favorite stripper for finishings is what is commonly known as "80 Grit". This material, when attached to an electrical vibrating device designed to apply it in an most efficient manner, makes light work of thin layers of varnishes, even when there are several of them, some of which nearly predate me, I think.

I've moved beyond that stage of the project, and am applying several layers of epoxy to the bare wood as a strengthening and sealing undercoat. A third coat of epoxy is curing on the wood as I type (and some of it is curing on my clothing and person), and I hope that tomorrow I'll be able to sand all of that nice and flat and smooth, in preparation for 6 or so coats of varnish this coming week. Between laying on the varnish, I'll be attempting to repair and refinish the gelcoat immediately adjacent to where the wood goes, in order to have that part of the deck refinish done while the wood is off the boat. That is the status of my major project of the moment.

My other "biggie" that I've done was to construct a simple icebox of pink foam sheet and duct tape. I wanted to make a quick and somewhat temporary icebox and place it onboard in order to have an idea if my thinking/planning about it is good, and it has worked out well. Well, almost, or mostly - at any rate, it was close.

I figured out I wanted to try it in place set to port on the settee, just aft of the little cabinets on that side. I measured everything in the area twice so that I knew it would fit, got my materials, and went about constructing the box at my storage unit. 2 layers of 1" thick sheet foam, with a radiant heat barrier sandwiched between the layers, held together for now with the duct tape. For a quick job, it came out nice, and it wasn't until I was less than 1/2 mile from the marina that I realized the one thing I hadn't measured was the companionway width. In the words of Homer (Simpson), "Doh!!!".

I got lucky. It wouldn't fit in the companionway, and I cursed at myself for my oversight as raindrops from an approaching storm began to fall. It was between 1/2" and 3/4" wider than the companionway opening. Then I realized that the trim in which the dropboards fit made the vertical part of the companionway just a bit smaller than the part under the sliding hatch, so I swung the boom over, and was so pleasantly surprised to see that it fit with less than 1/8" clearance on each side. Yeeha!! I love it when a plan comes together. :D

I've also spread some paint around the interior, cleaning up her appearance a bit and making it more obvious when CrewDog fur begins to build up and she needs a cleaning (that's every 2-3 days). The dogs both love the boat, and I've gotten in better shape since now I have to lift them bodily down into and up out of the cabin. They get the V-berth, and I sleep in the starboard settee. In another month or so, I hope to get some stanchions and lifelines on her, mostly in order to hang netting on so that Buffett feels comfortable going forward, and will get out of my way in the cockpit.

I've gotten the newsletters scanned, they are on the computer at the storage unit. C'pete - I'll be mailing your copies back soon, and Bill, I'll get them onto this computer and will transfer them to my website so you can download them before long. I'll get some pics of the brightwork and icebox to put in here for y'all to critique and/or laugh at also.

I'd be sailing more, but I'm still waiting on my Title/Bill of Sale to come in, which is a bit of a bummer. There is a Coast Guard station right next to the marina, so I'm hesitant to get out on the water without the paperwork which proves I'm the legal owner. :) I did sail her a few weekends ago, and quite handily outran a Scanmar 31 which lives on my dock, and I am very impressed with her sailing abilties. She tacks like a dream, points really well, has good handling overall (except under power coming into a slip with 3-4 kts of current - yikes!) and I'm really looking forward to heading offshore with her and feeling some swell under her keel.

When the brightwork is finished, I'll be pulling chainplate bolts to see if she is capable of just that. :D

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2479_web.JPG

c_amos

05-07-2005, 06:52 PM

.....so I chose the more traditional route and will redo all of the brightwork with varnish, as it can be maintained on-the-fly whenever needed.
Bless you man.... :D

Just for the record, the bright work on Katie Marie looked pretty darn good to begin with, Kurt.

epiphany

05-12-2005, 10:20 AM

First off, the cabin liner in Katie Marie is very dull - I don't think it's been polished in *years*. I'm using 3M's Marine Fiberglass Restorer and Cleaner and doing a section of the overhead every day. This pic shows the difference the stuff makes, and it is quite easy to use (except for the "overhead" part - which is a great shoulder and neck workout... ;) ). Obviously, the left side is not yet done, while the area to the right has been. Big difference, eh? :) I'm glad to see it shining up so well.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2582_web.JPG

epiphany

05-12-2005, 10:37 AM

Here is the genius bit of craftmanship you have been wondering about. I hate to put these photos up, and make Ebb's work look so, well, unfinished, but here we go... :D

"Technical discussion" follows the photos...

Here's the new box -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2583_web.JPG

and here's a slightly different perspective which shows its size better, and how it sits in relation to the rest of the interior -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2584_web.JPG

here with the lid open -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2585_web.JPG

and last, looking down inside -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2586_web.JPG

I made the box simply and easily, because I knew I'd probably be remaking the box. :) I will be remaking it (a bit smaller), but I also made it functional since, as a liveaboard, I need to be able to keep the bee... um, soda (yeah, that's it, "soda") cold, along with cold cuts and bread, etc..., so it is a "working" prototype.

I used 1" thick sheet foam from a hardware store, and a radiant heat barrier material sandwiched between the outermost layer of foam and the 2nd layer. The 3rd, innermost layer of foam I added a week after the rest, after testing out to see how well just 2" of foam did. 3" works *much* better, so I may even go to 4" in the final version. The construction is simple - I cut the foam with a blade, and staggered the corner joints, sealing them with good old duct tape at every layer. I did not get too involved in the lid; the final version will have more than 1" of foam. For now, I am using a "floating inner lid" of 1" foam and some of the radiant barrier, placing it directly on top of the foodstuffs inside. I'm using the large (approx. 9" square, 1.5" thick) refreezable blue ice substitute thingamajingers, and am getting 4 days of cold from 2 of them inside the box. This is much less volume than a bag of ice, I'd probably get more time using an 8# bag of ice, but thats expensive sorta (although less so than it was, since the extra foam gives the box longer legs...).

I will do a drawing with the dimensions on it, and post that later (in a few days).

epiphany

05-12-2005, 10:41 AM

I also mounted one of my Caframo fans - yippee! The skeeters and no-see-ums were starting to get viscious. Am working on a screened companionway insert.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2589_web.JPG

I've found a great place for one of my cockpit seats - as a cabin seat. This is a great spot to sit and read or eat (or all three). All of this area will eventually be built in with approximately this arrangement, I like it so well.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2591_web.JPG

I knocked together some curtains out of spinnaker cloth -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2593_web.JPG

here they are "furled" -

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2595_web.JPG

epiphany

05-12-2005, 10:43 AM

...and here are the CrewDogs, Molly and Buffett, reclining in their V-berth while they watch me work. Eventually, all those duffels down the strbd side will be replaced with a storage unit most likely constructed of Azek...

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2597_web.JPG

epiphany

05-12-2005, 10:54 AM

Oh! And a question...

Based on her Hull # of 422, can anyone give me an idea of what year Katie would have been commissioned? IIRC, there were 440 Ariels made, so she's near the end of the run, but I'm not sure of her exact age. I've been thinking she was a 1966 model, like #370, but am convinced she's of a younger vintage...

Thanks!

commanderpete

05-16-2005, 01:40 PM

Don't know, but she seems to be getting younger everyday.

Say Kurt, how do you "embed" multiple photos in one post?

epiphany

05-17-2005, 07:15 AM

Hiya C'pete -

I usually upload the pics to my own website (http://liquid-epiphany.com), and then use the photo link button at the top of the text input box to specify which pics will be shown. The resultant code looks like:

{IMG}http://liquid-epiphany.com/image_to_show.jpg{/IMG}

but, in this example, the { } characters should be [ ] instead (If I use [ ] then that text wouldn't show).

IIRC, I have some photo gallery software in place on my site, if you or anyone wants to use that functionality to put photos into posts, or store some pics on the web, let me know, I have plenty of room, and can create user accounts to allow uploading.

A lot of web hosting providers now have one or more free photo gallery apps that can be added to a website. On the Com-Pac Owners website (http://www.com-pacowners.com) I used an app called "4Images", but there are easier ones out there that look a bit cleaner.

Boat stuff update: Made a nice set of hatch screens (both companionway and front opening hatch) using the Azek material and with no-see-um netting. Will get pics up soon.

c_amos

05-17-2005, 08:28 AM

I'm using 3M's Marine Fiberglass Restorer and Cleaner and doing a section of the overhead every day.
Man, that stuff is working well. :cool: I had thought I was gonna have to break down and paint. If I can get the same results you are, I will put it off in favor of a good cleaning.

Are you using a powered buffer or elbow grease?

epiphany

05-17-2005, 10:19 AM

Actually I'm using a combo of shoulder- and elbow- grease. :D I thought of using a power tool, but didn't want to be cleaning the compound off of the ceilings, windows, cushions, etc etc ... :eek:

I used the stuff on the outside of my old Com-Pac, it worked pretty well there, too. However, the oxidation was much worse, so it didn't quite come back up to as good of a shine as you see in the cabin liner pics. I also used elbow grease on that, so maybe a power buffer would have been the better way to apply it for that job.

epiphany

07-07-2005, 10:46 AM

Took some time over the 4th weekend to do many little things to improve Katie's lot in life. One of the most eagerly awaited was installation of a hawsepipe for the anchor rode - the big bundle of rope and chain hanging off of the bow pulpit does nothing to enhance her sweet lines, so I've been wanting to make a path for it to go below easily. Here's what I did:

First, this is a side view of the cutout for the hawsepipe hole. We Ariel owners have a generous 3/4" thick foredeck, and Katie Marie has (thankfully!) nice dry balsa up in there.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2708_web.JPG

Here's the hole in the deck. I thought I'd be more nervous than I was when I put the spinning, sharp drill bit into the virginal (tho' old, for sure) deck glass to start the cutout. Perhaps because I knew it was for the better, I didn't have too many nerves about it. :)

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2710_web.JPG

Here you can see that I gouged out some balsa around the circumference of the cutout, extending back under the holes where the mounting screws would go. I only drilled those holes through the upper skin; I figured that way I could see when the gouging was sufficient, without worrying about epoxy drips down into the boat at those points. I backed the main cutout with some paper taped to the underside of the foredeck.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2711_web.JPG

Here is the epoxy and microballoons slurry in place, and mostly hardened. Before I added the microballoons to make the goo that you see here, I used a Q-tip and some of the plain (kicked) resin to saturate the balsa between the deck skins. BTW - epoxy makes the cotton come off of Q-tips pretty fast; I used 2 of them just to wet the edges of this small hole. After the balsa was wet out, I mixed in the microballoons to make a dry, peanut-butterish consistency slurry, let that sit for a few minutes in the pot, and then smeared it in. After I took this pic, but before the resin had cured all the way, I used acetone on a rag to clean up the surfaces around the hole.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2712_web.JPG

And here is the new hawsepipe in place:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2713_web.JPG

To give a better idea of how it sits in relation to other hardware on the foredeck, I offer this pic:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2715_web.JPG

And last, an image to show you the progress I've made on the brightwork. It was all sanded back to bare wood, had 1 thin and 2 normal coats of epoxy applied and sanded prior to receiving the varnish. It's a bit dirty in this pic, but you can see that it came out pretty good nonetheless. Not bad for an old Cetol hand. ;)

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2717_web.JPG

c_amos

07-07-2005, 12:14 PM

First rate job Kurt,

And to think, I thought the brightwork looked good when you bought her~!

;)

mbd

07-07-2005, 06:42 PM

Verrrrry purrrty Kurt! Nicely done!

BTW, I'm sure you know already, but according to the Pearson Info Site (http://pearsoninfo.net), the run for the Ariels was from 1962-1967. I'm not sure how many were made. But the PO of mine had 1966 on the registration, although he was guessing at it. I'm curious about the year of mine as well.

I'm sure our resident experts can set us straight and tell us how many hulls were made and when ours were produced... Bill?

Bill

07-07-2005, 07:35 PM

I'm sure our resident experts can set us straight and tell us how many hulls were made and when ours were produced... Bill?

440 Ariels were produced in the above noted time period. The only close evidence on each boat's production date is when it was first registered. If we could just find Mike Ford . . . he was in charge of "old" Pearson designs in the early 1980's and would likely have the answers.

mbd

07-07-2005, 07:43 PM

Thanks Bill. Hmm, it would seem that Kurt's and my Ariels are perhaps from the last year, 1967? Assuming that roughly the same number were produced each year, as unlikely as that is...

Dan Maliszewski

07-07-2005, 08:14 PM

Capt. Kurt,

My compliments on a bristol boat. I too carried my anchor on a shoe fixed to the pulpit for many years, until I flew my new 155 genoa. During an upwind tack, it caught on the anchor crossbar and ripped a foot long gash in the fabric. The anchor now sleeps in the chain locker till I call it up on deck. Bad Anchor. But I do allow the chain and shackle to hang out in the hawsepipe, just to keep them handy.

Carry on..

epiphany

07-08-2005, 01:12 PM

Regarding boat age: #370, 52 hulls before Katie, was supposedly a '66 (that's what the title said). 440 boats divided into 5 years makes 88 boats per year. If (and it's a big IF, I know) Pearson made 88 Ariels per year, started at the beginning of 1962, then year 5 (1966-67) would be hulls numbered from 352-440. Sooo - Question answered! (Har! Not hardly!). Well, at least I could say Katie is a '66 model, not be too far off, and that'd make us the same age. :) Gee, I wonder what day they took her out of the mold? If it was 7/22 of 66, that would be an auspicious and spooky date!!! :D

Dan - good point about the hook being a genny shredder up there. I do plan to put an anchoring platform (think stubby bowsprit) on Katie, the pulpit mount is a temporary but neccessary solution to anchor stowage (I like having the hook ready to go at a moments notice - being able to do so has saved my bacon at least once :) ). Once I get a "proper" place to stow the anchor up front, I'll use that pulpit-mounting gadget for my secondary on the stern. Sorry to hear about your "Bad Anchor lesson" - I hadn't considered that possibility, but will keep it in mind. I'll be under sail in a couple of hours from now - Yippee! :)

Have a good weekend!

mbd

07-08-2005, 02:00 PM

Kurt, you're assuming Pearson stopped production on 01/01/67.

Consider 62=1, 63=2, 64=3, 65=4, 66=5, and 67=6.

440 boats / 6 years = 73 per year, and 440 - 73 = 367.

Soooo, Hull #368 was the first hull of 1967... ??? Yes, very rough, but it would seem to point to our little boats being a 1967 vintage, don't ya think? :D

Mike Goodwin

07-08-2005, 04:23 PM

I was told they started in late '62 , #45 was supposed to be a nov or dec boat .

epiphany

07-27-2005, 08:31 AM

Here are some shots of the companionay hatch screens I made with some scrap Azek.

First shot looking out:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2731.JPG

Second shot shows detail w/flash:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2732.JPG

The top screen folds in half, so that the overhead hatch can close halfway in cases of inclement weather:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2733.JPG

And the vertical pieces I made to the same dimensions as my hatchboards, so that I can use the solid top piece, allowing me to lock the boat up when I am away for the day, yet still provide lots more ventilation than otherwise (yes, locks keep honest people honest, and a slightly determined thief could get in if thy wanted, but it's a ventilation-vs-security tradeoff, and my marina is pretty safe, with 5 other liveaboards on my pier, someone is almost always around. :) )

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2734.JPG

External view of the screens:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2735.JPG

epiphany

07-27-2005, 08:40 AM

It's been blistering hot here lately (yesterday temps where up in the 120's in direct sunlight). In an effort to help keep the boat interior temps down, I rigged up a couple of tarps which nearly cover the entire deck with shade when the sun is overhead. The forward tarp is an 8x10, the after is a 10x12. It has helped a lot, even though it looks a bit odd. :cool: :p (Note the hanked on genny; I've been sailing 3-4 times a week, and hadn't pulled it off yet when I took the picture. I can go from liveaboard to heelable in 30 minutes, unlike all the other boats on my dock which rarely (if ever) leave.)

Whole setup:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2741.JPG

CrewDogs diggin' the shade:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2742.JPG

Looking forward from underneath:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2736.JPG

And aft. I use my whisker pole to hold the corners out, providing much more shade that way:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2737.JPG

epiphany

07-27-2005, 08:54 AM

Katie Marie's previous owner is a paraplegic, and had bolted a car racing seat to the cockpit seat so that it would aid him with lateral stability when underway. It was a quick job, the holes were only sealed with 42/5200, and as a result, I had water penetration there. I drilled a series of exploratory holes to find the extent of the wetness some time back (the big hole led to the many outlying smaller ones), then kept them covered and let the project rest until such time as the weather permitted me to open the bad area up and let it dry. Here are my test holes:

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2740.JPG

The current hot spell is giving us a couple days of no-rain-possible, so this morn I started cutting after I got that first cup of joe into my gullet. It was bad, but not as bad as it could have been. I was really surprised by how well the skins were still bonded to the core, even though it was wet. I was also surprised to find that at least parts of our boats are cored with plywood. The upper glass skin is almost 1/4" thick in this area, and cutting it was no easy chore, and neither was getting the skin off. It took 2 BIG screwdrivers as levers, and a hammer to tap them in to break the skin free. The skin came off in 2 pieces; one over the plywood, and the other over balsa. The skin broke along the line of CSM which separated the two areas. Also broken were about 5 Dremel cutting disks, one Dremel 1/4" grinding disk (used as a cutter when the little ones just weren't working), and, worst of all, one blade of my grandpas old pocket knife, which led to the retrieval and subsequent usage of the 2 overlarge screwdrivers... :)

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2743.JPG

There's a real mish-mash of materials used in this area, and no shortage of what looks to be inadequately wet-out cloth and CSM. Still, it's incredibly strong.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/IMG_2745.JPG

It's drying now, I hope to get some epoxy and microballoons in there before the chance for rain comes back. Will post more shots as the project continues...

ebb

07-27-2005, 10:15 AM

Interesting... and nice work there, Kurt.

338 has no balsa anywhere in the cockpit or the cockpit cabin side (which is hollow in that the liner has no backing).

Plywood strips were used to increase stiffness
under the deck
under the seats and lids
under the cockpit floor.
These pieces were added to the molding when it was upside down being made in the factory. Each strip is isolated and molded in with wads of mat.
Really surprised you have found such extensive deterioration. Wonder if a DFO was is there at some time. Doubt that Pearson encapsulated sheet or areas of plywood. Just an observation.

frank durant

07-27-2005, 10:28 AM

Looks GREAT !! Love what you've done with the hatch and sreens. Nice and bright. The screens gotta be nice on a warm night. Would that happen to be a bottle opener handy there too.???....for pop of coarse.

epiphany

07-28-2005, 07:25 AM

Ebb - Pretty sure that this is what came from the factory. Don't see any evidence of repairs from the past in this area, and the original non-skid in the area looks (looked) undisturbed. Katie has a few things different from what I've seen in pics of other Ariels posted here - such as no diagonal supports on the backside of the main bulkhead. Maybe they just got forgotten that day, or perhaps the workers were too busy trying to get to hull #440, so they could call it a day and go hit the bottle. ;)

Frank - That is indeed a bottle opener for pop. My favorite flavor is what I refer to as "Barley Soda" (at least when in front of the youngsters). :D :p

ebb

07-28-2005, 08:26 AM

yeah, the anti-skid grid couldn't be duplicated. The improvisation in the Ariel hulls is fascinatin!!!
Makes it easy to add your own riffs, so to speak.

Wonder why Pearson did that to yours? Rather weird, I think, the factory going to that extra trouble and fitting. Maybe they were using shorts from the bone pile??? You going to impregnate and glass over? :confused:

epiphany

10-22-2005, 11:46 AM

Oops, ebb, just saw your reply. All I did for right now was clean and dry the area, then put the skin back down for now. I filled the voids w/a combination of microballoons and silica. Now that it is sealed, it can wait until I get around to addressing the exterior of the boat in a meaningful way. :)

epiphany

10-22-2005, 11:52 AM

This is what I'm thinking to do (right now at least) with the aft area of the cabin:

Icebox below present location, sink moved off to starboard, just forward of icebox.

The roundish area where the sink currently is will be the stove. I wanted it where the heat from it can leave the boat as quickly and as easily as possible. I also wanted to keep it away from the icebox.

I'll have lots of stowage under the countertop to starboard. The weight of this will be countered by the cabinetry I am building into the v-berth area to port.

I'm giving serious thought to making a gimballed stove out of my Magma grill, since I don't like it much as a grill, but it will hold a wok nicely (I have the version which functions as a grill or a stove). It will still be useable as a grill, and possibly even an oven of sorts, though I need to experiment with that.

Here's my first rough "sketch":

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/interior_b&w_counter3_600.jpg

eric (deceased)

10-22-2005, 04:01 PM

meaning it was registered in california.how did it get to south carolina,looks like a nice marina...coulndt help but notice several empty slips....you mentioned you live aboard...where is this marina located...I am always looking for someplace liveaboard friendly

Tony G

10-22-2005, 04:08 PM

Kurt,

I like it! That's tons of stowage in the galley. What do you have planned for the port side of the v-berth area that you mentioned? Any gimp pics yets? How about your ice box? Any idea on volume yet? I noticed a pretty standard opening for it, but, that could belie what lies beneath the surface. I've been giving some thought to icebox design-shevles, drains and stuff. What are you thinking? I have a feeling that everyone else on this board has alot more real world experience than I do when it comes to sailboats, so I like to get everyone's input, twice.

Come on, spill the beans!

epiphany

10-23-2005, 03:51 AM

Hi Eric -

The PO was from Cali and had gotten the boat registered there, although it was up in Maryland at the time. That's an older pic - guess I need to edit those #'s off of there. :)

The marina is very liveaboard friendly (dog friendly, too :) ). It is in Georgetown, SC, here's their webpage: GLM (http://georgetownlandingmarina.com/) . They are all great folks, come on up! :) Here's a pic of the area from Google Maps. The highway crossing the ICW and Bay here is Hwy 17, the marina is at th ebase of the left bridge, to the right of those pinkish upside-teardrops. We're about 45 mins north of Charleston, and 90 mins south of Wilmington. Good place, lots of room to sail, 12 miles to open ocean, and plenty o' hurricane holes just upriver. Slips available, and other than just liking the place and living there, I am not affiliated. :D

Mike Goodwin

10-23-2005, 05:36 AM

Damn, I drove right by you on my way back from Charleston last trip .
I prefer the "back way", US-17 instead of I-95 .

epiphany

10-23-2005, 05:42 AM

Tony -

Yessir, there's a lot of stowage there! What I am wrasslin' with at the moment is that the drawers, if they extend back to the hull, will be between 2 and 3 feet deep/long - huge volume, but big areas make it harder to get at want you want easily, so I am pondering different solutions to this "opportunity" (positive thinking, right? ;)) I did want them big enough to hold pans etc, and they will. In fact, I could fit *all* of my galley gear into just one of those drawers, so, more than likely it won't be just galley stowage.

One thought I've had is to subdivide the drawers, putting the stuff I use regularly at the front, and leaving an area separated by a mini-bulkhead towards the back for long-term food stowage (keeping in mind that my plan is solo cruising - hopefully long distances - I'd like to have 2-3 months worth of food aboard). That way I wouldn't need to pull a drawer all the way out to get at a butter knife. I have also thought to make the drawers not so deep/long, and to put in an icebox-style opening in the countertop to be able to get at the area in back of them, ie; tall storage between the back of the drawers and the side of the hull.

And yet another consideration: Height of the stock/current aft bulkhead shelf above the stock/current berth is 14". Raising that a bit will make it easier to work on the countertop when standing (even 20" isn't too tall, it seems), but finding the magic height that works well and feels right (visually as well as kinesthetically) is what my prototyping is for. I'm going to stick in a plywood countertop with rudimentary under-counter storage (read: plastic bins, and no cabinet doors) at about 20" height to start off with, and live with it for a couple of weeks. Then, I'll probably change it a bit, or fiddle with it in *some* manner to get it more right. :) I picked up a heap of scrap ply from a construction site the other day, so I have plenty of material to play with before I make any permanent type of installation.

What do you have planned for the port side of the v-berth area that you mentioned? Any gimp pics yets?

Nope, haven't doodled with that yet. It'll be pretty simple, though. Sized length-wise so that someone can sleep easily to starboard (and have room at the forward end), the cabinet will stand about 6" under the foredeck height, the top of it being near level to where the shelf is now. One thing I want to work into that space is a Pardey-style onboard workshop, so that when I'm out there, I have an area for working on things when needed. So I know that tools will be up there, and my Grandpa's old vise, and also bulk stowage. I like what you and Ebb have done with the hatches up front, but don't know that I'll get the chance to do something like that. It would be convienent for sail handling to have a gaping hatch right there. :)

How about your ice box? Any idea on volume yet? I noticed a pretty standard opening for it, but, that could belie what lies beneath the surface. I've been giving some thought to icebox design-shevles, drains and stuff. What are you thinking?

Have to have some background for this answer! Read on...

Well, I've been living with iceboxness on Katie for about 7 months now, and I've been reading and researching a lot to determine what to do about ice/refrigeration in the long term. Stateside, I like cold beer - cold, handy, and plenty of it. :D Most everything I read, though, seems to indicate that I need (and in fact, have begun) to regard cold food and beverage as a "luxury", and not a "necessity". This is an interesting concept. And after 7 months of living with the icebox (which I made and which is a vast improvement on the OEM Pearson version!), I've realized how much of a pain it is to have to worry about and keep up with refrigerated food and beverages.

Don't get me wrong - if I could find a system that would 1) keep things cool and/or make ice, 2) be *very* energy efficient, 3) be very dependable, 4) not require thru-hulls or make excessive waste heat otherwise, and 5) not need any kind of 1st-world pitstops to keep running, I'd be on it, as they say, like white on rice. But there in no product like that out there that I've heard of, short perhaps of something a NASA scientist has dreamt up. So the alternative is to use plain old ice. And I've found that, even stateside, having food/bev that *needs* refrigeration is a pain in the arse, when you are doing that via the importation of ice.

I've also learned that in refrigeration, as in many other things, we 1st worlders are extravagant, to say the least.

Most of what we have in the fridge really doesn't need refrigeration, or there are alternatives. Eggs will keep for months, if they've never before been refrigerated, and get turned 1/2 turn every other day. Condiments? Says "Keep Refrigerated" on the bottle, but even *mayonaisse* will be fine for several months at room temps if you use only clean utensils to scoop more out (or a squeeze bottle!). It seems that basically, the one thing which really needs refrigeration is meat.

So, the hassle of an icebox comes down to mostly - for me - storing meat, and beer. :D Ay, typical male am I!

My icebox, and my icebox requirements, have shrunk as a result of this.

My first icebox (see post #15 in this thread, back on page 1) was basically giant. That was planned - it's easier to cut down to proper size than to build up to it, right? I wound up cutting 6" or 8" off of the bottom of the first version after about 3 months - I just couldn't eat the volume of food it would hold fast enough, and throwing food away because it got warm is an expensive practice. Additionally, keeping up with the ice is like "keeping up with the Jones's" - a process that is never ending. I used not bag ice, but water frozen in plastic bottles which, like block ice, keeps longer than when it is all broken up. Even so, the necessity of swapping out bottles every two days - or of carrying *lots* of ice to the boat in order to go for 4 or 5 days of cold - is a pain.

I'm thinking 'out loud' and at length here to explain that the volume of my icebox will probably be smaller than generally acceptable, and I am learning to make the lifestyle changes to compensate for that willingly. Before I commit to a particular size, I plan to find out how large I can expect a common block of ice to be when I get it in foreign countries. My icebox will, I hope, be large enough to fit that, yet small enough to have it last 5-7 days while keeping some perishables cool. Once it's gone, it's room temp everything until the next port.

Already, though, I envy Chichester - he had it made with that keg in the bilge. :)

Icebox interior design - I plan to put the ice on a shelf in the upper back of the box. The shelf will have drainage to a bottle (if feasible - to the bilge if not), and the icebox contents will sit on raised ridges above a sloped floor. The slope in the floor will lead to a small sump in one corner to make mopping-out operations as easy as possible. A drain is an area where cold can also leak, thus the bottle idea - to trap the melting ice for use as drinking water, if water quality permits.

Phew - long post! :D

epiphany

10-23-2005, 05:44 AM

Damn, I drove right by you on my way back from Charleston last trip .
I prefer the "back way", US-17 instead of I-95 .

What a Bummer! You could have helped me get rid of some beer while we talked Ariel... :D

Let me know next time you're heading this way, we'll make some plans.

Tony G

10-23-2005, 06:48 AM

Thanks for your input, Kurt.

It only seems long-winded when you're writing. In the internet age we have all begun to talk in an abreviated fashion. It's nice to sit down and read a direct response that is not from a magazine or interoffice memo.

Living aboard for 7 months must challenging at times, yet, the most practical way to get the real world experience one needs to 'build' your boat around you. eg. the ridges in the bottom of the icebox. I will digest this post several different way and times before I make any more decisions on which way I'll proceed.

Thanks again.

mbd

10-23-2005, 10:55 AM

Kurt,

Have you checked out the Triton MIR (http://tritonclass.org/mir/) website? I'm sure you have, but there's a bunch of good stuff there. Specifically the entry on Florentina's Refrigerator (http://biomaterials.bme.northwestern.edu/triton411/fridge.html)? I remembered that one from a while back. That was the first restoration that made me think a non-wooden toe rail just might look decent.

BTW, your mods are looking good! I'm anxious to see the progress. Keep in mind, you may want to leave room for a double bunk conversion - so the crew dogs will be happy, of course! ;)

epiphany

10-23-2005, 05:00 PM

Thanks Mike -

I remember the Triton site from a long time ago, but had forgotten about it. Thanks for the reminder - I'll be going there next. :)

The fridge mod is cool! I thought about trying that, I figured it could be done, now I know it can. Thanks again. :)

It's such a neat hack that it begs some idle speculation: Carry one of those super quiet 4-stroke mini-gensets, you'd have a neat, low budget reefer. Maybe put an Ocean Spray or similar square plastic bottle full of brine in the icemaker portion to act as a cold sink. Freeze it up solid, refreeze after 2 days or so? :D I love it.

Well, my progress won't be near as professional-looking as other examples you see around here, that's for sure! :) So long as it looks pretty good, and works well, that'll get it by the finish inspector. :D

OK, I'm off to go find out about that non-wooden toerail...

mbd

10-23-2005, 08:34 PM

Jim Moore talks a little about his refrigeration in "Swan: The Second Voyage". I'm rereading it now - good read. I like his style and sense of humor, and the way he mixes in practical pointers. I haven't read his first one "Way of the Wind", but it's definitely on my list.

Also, for those long drawers, what about a couple of plastic containers? When you need something from the back one, you simply pull the forward one out and access the one in the rear. It'd keep things dryer too...

epiphany

10-25-2005, 08:51 AM

Haven't read those! Thx for the titles, I have to go do library returns today anyway, might be able to find it. :)

Right now I am using plastic bins, and from experience I know that having bins will make stuff "self sort", with the less frequently used items going into the harder to reach bins. I haven't ruled that out, but it will come down to bin sizes as to whether I use them in the quest to maximize space usage. Another thing I like about bins is, if they have tight fitting lids, they'd serve for a little while at least as flotation in the event of catastrophe. They could also be thrown out of the boat if it was sinking, and it seems that the more stuff you can carry with you in a raft, the better the chances of having something that could make a difference in survival. Not that I'm planning on that of course, but better safe than sorry. :)

I've figured out that my icebox will project above the current 14" counter height, and probably even above a 20" counter height. Why? Insulation. 3" of it all around a 20" high box would leave 14" of height on the interior. A 2 liter bottle is 12", for scale. However, I want at least 4" of insulation, so am thinking that the box might be 22" or 24" in height above the current berth level. I did a quick drawing (on my site) of that to see what a stepped countertop would look like, & it seems OK looking. 24" height would put the icebox top about 5" below where it used to be. Just now I thought this: I should cut down thru the berth level and use the area below. That makes a lot of sense, & uses an otherwise hard-to-reach area. Hmmmm... :) Food for todays thoughts. :D

epiphany

10-26-2005, 05:58 AM

Updated my "drawing" with more a accurate representation of what the measurements and real-world testing are revealing.

22" above berth height is 36" above sole height, and that seems to be perfect for the top of the counter. Right at my belt, I'm 5'9". It allows for 10" high cabinets at the back of the counter against the hull, where the shelf is now.

Mike - I found that I had some plastic bins in my storage unit that are almost perfect - 24.5" long x 11" tall x 14" wide, lengthwise they nearly span the width of the berth area, 2 high will fit under the counter, and 3 can fit in the space between the hanging locker and the forward edge of the aft bulkhead countertop. I lugged them to the boat last night, and they are working for me right now. :) The one drawback I can see to using them all the time is lack of air circulation for the bin contents. A drill and some strategic holes would fix that. It would save weight and time, not having to build in drawers and the structure necessary to make them useable. It won't look as nice, but there is room to use my slatted wood shelving idea on the cabinet front to "hide" them while providing lots of air flow. The advantages are real; I am not ruling them out as a solution. It might be easy to affix some cleats for them to sit/slide on, and they'd be drawers, in effect.

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/interior_b&w4_600.jpg

Bill

10-26-2005, 09:12 AM

Have you looked at the Brave Heart modifications beginning at post #4? http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=531 Might provide a feel for "real world" space utilization.

epiphany

10-26-2005, 09:24 AM

Bill -

I hadn't looked at that thread in quite some time, and you are right, I think it shows to a great extent similarities to what I've been thinking - even the sink is in the right spot. :) Good call, and thanks!

No doubt my earlier viewings affected to some degree what I've been thinking to date. Wish I could go aboard her and crawl around. I'm going to have to put some thought into a convertible settee...

I promise to be very wary of lee shores! :D

epiphany

10-28-2005, 09:17 AM

If I push the berth foot back 3' into the cockpit locker, that leaves 1' of berth extending beyond the edge of the current, original countertop. Then, notch the counter there a bit for a bit more leaning-back space. That would leave 3' of ex-berth area to put to use as a tabletop and a functional (if not super comfortable) seat on the other side of the table.

Alternative #1: Have no seat at the forward end, and a wider table coming off of the current, OEM drawer storage (this sounds better).

Alternative #2: Have a seat only at the forward side of the table, the table becoming an extension of the current countertop when it is raised/in place.

Alternative #2A: Get some of the hull shelf out of the way, and there could actually be a mini-L shaped seat around the table (table would need be small, and not extend to the hull, person sitting there would have their back to the hull).

Have to think on all these, and go measure the size and arrangement of the dinette on a Cal 25 at the other end of my dock. I want the table to be able to drop down and restore the berth normal function, in order to be able to use it as a berth in hot weather (for max air circulation over my sleeping body). :)

epiphany

10-28-2005, 09:38 AM

Forgot to add this:

I made a quick 4' long, 24" high ply countertop and fastened it to the hanging locker. Scavenged a few more of those large bins from my storage unit, and now I have a functional model of the starboard side area I've been thinking of. It isn't pretty, but it is working to demonstrate the feasability of these ideas. It also freed up a couple of smaller (but still pretty large) bins to use up in the v-berth (instead of the duffels I'd been using), so there I also have a functioning-if-not-pretty simulation of what I think it will be eventually. These two "improvements" have made a big difference already. I think I am on the right track for what I want to do, even if it is far from the original use for which the boat was intended.

One thing I've thought to do is to go ahead and start a list of everything (gear-wise) that I'd need aboard to go and do a long distance cruise away from the US. Once I have a good list, it should give me an idea of how my current stowage and plan will work when I add in all that "stuff". I feel as if I could leave right now for two weeks or more with what I have aboard, but I know there are a lot of things that I'd need for a long distance cruise that I am not thinking of right now, and/or don't have aboard. Stuff like spare rigging, gifts for people I meet along the way, stores that I will want but won't be able to find way out there, etc... I know that I have a few years yet before I can leave (and lots to do during them), but planning sure is fun. :)

george copeland

11-07-2005, 04:24 PM

Been awhile my good brethren of the noble Ariel. Attached are some pics to do the Ariel devotee proud. Note the Executive Officer's relaxed disposition--nothwithstanding her maiden voyage into the sometimes nasty Gulf of Mexico. Note also the Sea-Dog, Nick, who, at one point decided to have words with the porpoises. Note above all else that lavish varnish work.

george copeland

11-07-2005, 04:33 PM

More braggin-shots of Houdini getting some work done. Ted M.-I think you would approve.

ebb

11-07-2005, 05:08 PM

George. your last quarter stern shot of Houdini shows a very high waterline. Is it where it oughter be? You visit bad water and want bottom to protect the pearly whot hull??
I ask because I have just lowered 338's from four inches above the top of the factory waterline - there were two so I assume the top line was the top of a boot stripe - moved it back to the boot line. That gives me some leeway for extra weight and will allow the higher boot top to be painted on epoxy bottom protected watewrline.

The 4" I put back took my line down from the transom bottom tip to something like what we see on other boats - if it's an outboard well, to the bottom of the well. Just wondering if I did the right thing! Got it taped and was thinking of putting hull primer on.

frank durant

11-07-2005, 05:33 PM

George....LOOKIN GOOOOD!!!! Nice dodger/bimini !! I have my new one in a bag..will find out soon how it turned out (I made the pattern for them=scary)I hope it looks 1/2 as good as yours.Every thing looks 'proper'...great work.I must say ya managed a great dolphin pic to boot.They never seem to come up in the same place and only surface where your camera is'nt.That boat IS a exellent example of 'the breed' Enjoy!!.. one FINE lil yacht !!

frank durant

11-07-2005, 05:44 PM

I just looked back at your previous posts..what a beauty !! Just in remarkable shape for an ole gal !! You are so lucky to find such an obviously 'loved' boat and she was so lucky you found her to carry on that pride of ownership !!

ebb

11-07-2005, 06:01 PM

Kurt, I can look at something a number of times befor it sinks in.
Let me ask this: are you at all worried about taking the (let's call it) spaciousness of the cabin away by having the long counter/stowage on the starboard side?
I ask because I'm looking to do the same by raising of platform levels in 338 and I'm really worried about stuffing the old girl like a thankgiving turkey. I want to sit at the dinette/chart table and look out all four windows. That raises the seat up maybe 6". And taking that as the double bunk conversion height, it makes for a lot more stowage, but at what cost?

338's bit of quarter berth that sticks into the cabin is too low to sit on (except when getting in and ducking under the bridge deck), and would only be accessable by moving the ladder and bending the dinette seat forward. If it is used as a berth you could raise your knees. At least I assume so, not tested with cushion.

Your drawing has me seeing 338's portside opposite the dinette having something very similar to your starboard side. Maybe something not as wide following off the galley - a workbench, double wide shelf, like that - but still enuf cubic space for a double bunk coming across the aisle.

But it could still a good idea to have a single fore and aft seat where one could scrunch down in with head under the deck. Assume bracing oneself on either tack.

Anyway.
Wondering what your thinking might be on our cabin viz roomyness? I worry about it.
338 may have even more of her compression bulkhead removed and a laminated ARCH bent in - as a way of getting more side room and somehow incorporating the Vberth wholely into the cabin. In fact, the height of the Vberth brought into the cabin as the platform/seat datum. 7", I think.

Raising the bar, er, bunk, so to speak. :D

george copeland

11-08-2005, 06:53 AM

Thanks all for the compliments--Ebb: the water line is where it is as a function of the previous owner's decisions. I just let it stand. I suppose it is a bit high, but the boat has made well-laden trips to Louisiana, all over the Texas coast, and at least one long haul to Belize. I have never gotten her loaded-up enough to settle that extra 2 inches or so.
Mr. Durant--if ye like varnish, ye might have more soulful satisfaction to come. Just finished a total rework of the interior, but haven't put the photos in. All interior teak has a mirror finish--just so the Executive Officer could avoid the trouble of finding a mirror in the morning. :eek:

mbd

11-08-2005, 09:00 AM

Hey George, I'm anxious to see your pictures, and you've a most excellent boat as well, but I think you may be posting on Kurt's Gallery thread (Ariel 422) instead of yours??? :confused:

epiphany

11-08-2005, 09:07 AM

Ebb -

As I type, my laptop is sitting on the starboard side shelf I erected over the big storage bins. This shelf sits 24" over the original berth height (and/or 36" above the sole), is 48" long (going aft from the hanging locker) and is, I've found, a comfortable height when standing to cook from, use the laptop, etc. However, I will be, when I build in the final version (this being a working prototype), making a top that is 2" lower. Reason for that being that will give me 10" storage up against the hull, under the side deck.

Having the big shelf and stowage under it doesn't seem to have taken away from the roomy feeling of the cabin (which does seem roomy, to me at least, my previous boat having been much tighter belowdecks). It may do so a bit more with a dinette table to port. However, I do intend to make the dinette table drop-able, so that I can convert it to a berth much like what we have from the factory.

My working prototype countertop does not extend all the way to the after bulkhead - being experimental, I went with a piece of ply that I already had on hand which was only 48" in length. Where my icebox was, the countertop height remains original for now at least. Actually, that stepped-down area is working out nicely, and might be seen in some form when I finish. At some point in time, I will raise it to line it up with the rest, and see how that "feels" before making a decision. One object of my living aboard is to make sure that I have modifications optimized *before* I build them in. I am too lazy to have to do something twice. :) That lower area may suffice as a place to sit while underway and still be able to see out of the deadlights, but it would need to be a bit convertable as I intend to have the icebox under there. It would not be a fore/aft aligned seat, but bracing for movement of the boat would be quite easy. Starboard tack, your feet would be about level with your head, though, and on port, it might be too much like standing up.

One idea that keeps coming back to me in different shapes and form is an old one: the hammock. Have you seen hammock chairs? Something like that could be designed to be slung in the cabin, secured at four corners so that the person sitting there did not get bashed against the boat whenever a wave rolled under. Oddball thinking, yes, but there just may be a way to implement it so that it would work, and work well. It would be extremely stowable, too.

One other oddball thing that I have been thinking may lend itself to what you are thinking, as regards a companionway ladder: I'm considering using a fold-down, telescoping ladder of the transom mount type up under the bridgedeck. It could be collapsed and stowed out of the way when belowdecks, and would provide for a higher top step (which would be good for when washboards were in at sea), as well as closer spacing between steps than the original steps offer. Nothing about the idea seems bad to me, though I am still considering it. For you and your plans, it might make access to the pilot berth a little more handy.

I'm interested to hear any feedback on my "oddball" ideas. :)

epiphany

11-08-2005, 09:08 AM

Hey George, I'm anxious to see your pictures, and you've a most excellent boat as well, but I think you may be posting on Kurt's Gallery thread (Ariel 422) instead of yours??? :confused:

No problem with me, either way! She *is* a fine looking vessel! Katie Marie also has a higher-than-usual waterline, but it is working well at keeping stains off of the hull. :)

mbd

11-08-2005, 09:21 AM

Neat idea with the folding ladder, Kurt. FWIW, I love my companionway ladder for ease of use (the kids can scramble up and down it) and would design an interior around it in a heartbeat. A great PO mod.

http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2333&stc=1

Also, just curious if any of you modification mavens have considered an athwartship convertable dinnette? Working areas and shelves could be fore or aft (or both) of the dinnette, you could still have double settees to either side when not "deployed", and the table could be used up in the cockpit as well...

epiphany

11-10-2005, 06:14 AM

Mike - Good thinking! :) Your idea has several advantages to it. Sitting here this morning looking at what I have so far, trying to think about how your ideas might fit in.

Looking at the ladder picture (thx for the link - so many pictures here it's hard to keep track of them :) ), I think that's one of the ones I saw which got me thinking about the steps. Looks nicely done, and not overly intrusive, if at all. I've measured a line from the bridgedeck (interior front edge) and it's right at 4'. Since there are several different readily-available, collapsible transom ladders that size, and although it probably won't look as nice as yours, it should be an easy project.

Also in that picture, it looks like there is a cut-out in the aft bulkhead, at the foot of the port berth. What was that for? I'm going to empty that locker this weekend and make some measurements for the foot-end of a sea berth. I'm wondering if I will be able to size it so that a moveable bin/drawer that would fit there would also fit into my under-counter area.

mbd

11-10-2005, 06:27 AM

Thanks Kurt! Now GIMP it! I'm dying to see a layout.

My batteries are stored in the forward end of the port cockpit locker. That cutout is for access to the forward most battery. Day light to the right, battery to the left under the counter...

The ladder is not intrusive in the slightest. Did I say I really really like it? If you're interested, I can take some pics and measurements and email 'em to you off-line.

epiphany

11-12-2005, 05:15 AM

Mike - Thx for the offer to measure, but I can get a good idea from looking at your pic, and measuring the same space here, so there's no need for you to "work" on my behalf. Or did you just need an excuse to go to your boat? ;) :D

I'll GIMP something up on the athwartship dinette idea once I think about it a little more. I was flipping through my (recently rediscovered) copy of Ferenc Mate's "Finely Fitted Yacht", and saw an idea that might have some uses. It was a settee which turns into a pull-out double berth. I'll try to describe it:

The seat part of the settee (where your butt goes) is a series of slats all side by side, like piano keys. Even-numbered slats are fixed/don't move, odd-numbered slats can slide out from the fixed slats, and are attached to the bunks edge board. When you pull the edge board, the movable slats slide out, creating a surface twice as large as it had been. Folding or removeable legs are used to support the outer edge of the berth. Does this make sense? I'll look up the page number and post it later.

This would be a great way to implement an athwartships berth, there would be no board to have to stow/unstow when setting up the berth - for sleeping mode, just pull it out like a sliding shelf, put the cushion in place, and rack out, and do the reverse to go back to working mode. This might also make a good way to implement a seat also. A pull-out table is also suggested by this idea.

Lots of possibilities. :)

ebb

11-12-2005, 08:56 AM

Slat idea sounds interesting. If access to the stowage is thru the top would that still work? Simpler is another piece of ply under the seat cushion that could be pulled across the aisle, or for access in sail mode the piece could be lifted up like a lid to get to the lockers.

Seatback lockers on one side could be dedicated to holding the bedding when in settee mode. That seat back could be slid down (maybe with the cushions velcroed on) to have the stow area open while bunking and make the cross asile piece less wide and rectangular, but support would be needed with added cross pieces. Or the front vertical of the settee could be designed to pull out for fore and aft support using the cabin sole.

338's q-berth is much lower that the existing settees allowing the unfortunate to raise the knees in a very tight area anyway. Space for the occupant to insert self has to be provided. That brings the q-berth out a bit into the cabin and also suggests that the foot of the companionway not be under the double bunk. Access up nad down via the ladder should planned for when the double is set up.

This is a good arguement for an athwartship double. If you are under 5'7", let's say, it may work great. Taller folk will need room nearly hull to hullside, and that would make upright lockers on both side not possible, or you'd have to empty them for sleeping. There is also the amount of room UP you need for the mattress cushions, feet, and raising the head.

Not willing to loose a cubic inch of stowage, I opted to fore and aft body arrangements where generally you have the central full height of the cabin. Some small boat interiors have the V-berth area as the sole double bunking possibility. I think Flicka, which has comprable interior volume, is one. Now what I'm going to end up with on 338 doesn't matter here. BUT

I've just about convinced self for various reasons to push the whole double bunk issue forward and bring the existing V-berth height into the cabin. I'm negotiating with self on laminating a true arch on the cabin side of the main bulkhead that would widen the width at bunk/seat level. It would still include the crossbeam. I feel the mast could use the support there anyway as it is but half supported by the compression beam. Would have to alter what is already an alteration. That's a bummer.

Looking out of the windows while seated at the dinette/chart table is absolutely necessary imco for cruising. Doing that raises the dinette seat to near the same height as the V-berth. Won't argue with the deeper lockers under the seats. The galley across the aisle at the companionway might be operable while sitting higher up. I like Kurt's full counter, 338's would be on the port side. It would allow a number of configurations including side access drawers and lockers, even a workbench. Altho self would not have headroom. And. perhaps, a remaining seat at the original level for wedging into in rough weather. And aesthetically having it as an open space in all that proposed buildup.

Anyway, athwartships might give you access to the head between the V-berths AND the foot of the ladder for weekending in essentially a traditional Ariel setup. Privacy in the head area is almost the most important consideration when both sexes are aboard. And the captain needs to get up on deck in a jiffy. If you decide not to have a shower ala franco in the V, maybe a sink is a good compromise. :D

epiphany

11-14-2005, 12:38 AM

Ebb - Curse you and your arched strongback idea for making me rethink some perfectly good plans... :D Went and looked at some Flicka interiors (really, see one of each (w/head and w/out) and you've seen 'em all - no mods going on in the Flicka community it looks like) for a refresher. They are simple, open, workable, and don't have a bulkheaded interior. It would be so nice to have that open feeling, which takes me back somewhat to what I was thinking several months ago. I guess that for me it'll come down to getting interior mods done either sooner, or going all out. I like the blank canvas you and TonyG have with your no-interior, sanded-to-glass empty hulls. Will I go there? Right now, only the Shadow knows...

I assume your interior stands much as it looks in this long ago pic: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=644&stc=1

Which seems to show a wider, more open interior already. You are talking about opening up the base of the bulkhead even more? See what you think about the GIMP'ed pic below - it would be easy to do with your existing bulkhead modification.

Sitting here on the port settee and looking through the bulkhead opening while imagining away the hanging locker and drawer cabinetry, I'm wondering now if, when I drop my mast for repairs/upgrading soon, I shouldn't go ahead with modifying the main bulkhead. Aaaarrrgghhhh... Something to mull over...

OK, one more pic after Ebb's bulkhead. Using the idea of sliding interior parts, it would be easy to make a dinette that slides out of the starboard side cabinet. Not done to scale or with any realism, it simply illustrates a possibility. The blue lines could be 2 seats and a table surface which pull out from the cabinet. Edit: I did some measuring - space between berths is 27" or so. A 20" wide pull-out seat/tabletop would leave enough room to one side that you could skooch by it without needing to slide it back in. The seat height could be placed so that it gave a view out the deadlights when seated. Seatbacks could easily be incorporated - either flip-up or pull-out (like the seat bottoms). Legs for the seats (which would bear weight) could also be designed in. As could a pull-out footrest, placed low (not shown in the drawing), which would allow one to brace if the boat was moving. Heck, it could even be made so that, depending on what you needed, you could pull out either a dinette, or a berth. Hmmm... I'm liking this idea - it seems as if it would be a good addition, especially considering the space constraints of our small interiors...

ebb

11-14-2005, 08:04 AM

( s i g h )
Kurt, Dreamers we be! Is that your interior? Could be 338's, except I left the remaining bulkhead intact under the deck.

Feel that the lam oak bean in 338 is plenty strong for the span. Also removed the balsa under the mast step and filled it with solid frp. So the curve of the deck is well established.

Been using some 1/4" wiggle ply to stack and bend into curves designing the hard dodger. Took a bundle down below and clamped it up on the bulkhead. The stuff is easy to arrange into any desirable curve. I left it up so that next time I got down to the boat and glanced at it I could tell if it was ok. Sometimes you can depend on that. I can,. because the head is not buzy with the idea, and the rightness of it can get thru. It looks real good to me.

It means cutting away the 'legs' and transfering the downward forces to the legs of a lam arch that would terminate further outboard on the V-berth bulkhead. Whether the arch is more engineer correct as a roman radius or can be tweeked into a more pleasing curve I don't know.

Would leave some bulkhead, as much as possible to keep rigidity in the hull. The main shroud plates are there, and the others, so I would keep it solid under the side decks. Might add alot more and wider tabbing of bulkhead to hull.

Havn't really thought about it, doing other things on the boat. I have not attached/glued/bolted the existing lam beam to the roof. So it depends on its shape and struts for immobility. More support for the footprint of the mast imco would be good. So how much material and weight it would take is the problem. The part of the struts/legs that would remain comes down along the cabin side and just below would be married to the arch legs. This is the critical meeting point and requires some thinking.

Feeling is that it could be done. Must be done. It has to be as efficient and light as possible. Might leave the resulting triangular spaces in the upper corners open or hollow. Who knows. Maybe this is a concerted effort?

The impetus for this is really to get the whole horizonal sleeping mode out of the important part of the cabin.

My thinking on the main table, chart and dining, is to bring it out solid with the shelves and lockers but have it hinge UP at the appropriate place so that it would merely hook on the cabin side. That's as far as I've got on that idea. But I do know that the only real fore-and-aft seating on the boat will get much use! Gotta Go Now.

epiphany

11-14-2005, 08:57 AM

Ebb -

I'll be digesting the rest of your post, but that pic is of *your* bulkhead. :D I copied the picture from #338's Gallery pages, then I used the GIMP to "cut away" areas of the upper, outer parts of it (I pasted in the hull using parts of your hull from up in the forepeak). I wanted to see what it would look like, and thought you might want to see it too...

ebb

11-14-2005, 11:26 AM

Amazing and scary too. Like some gimp cut and pasting me out of the big picture - brrr r r, very sci-fi. But what a great tool it is that allows you to paint an interior - like the Ariel's - move things around til just right, and then get measurements. Put those measurements in another program and have a machine cut the parts, put em ina box, and fed-ex right to the boat! Done!

Until somebody interjects here pointing out some glaring fault (besides Carl A. looking paler than usual), the arch beam certianly seems like the perfect space opener. If only I'd had a gimp of my own back then! And the presense of mind.

The best way is to start empty, with just the bulkhead, make patterns, glue up two arches flat in the shop, one for either side of the existing bulkhead. Bolt and glue in place, cut out all the middle. With the bulkhead pieces filling out the spaces to the cabin sides and to the hull - I think you'd end up with an wide open space to play with (in) and an even stronger support for the mast compression, as well as the compression forces of the chainplates. Like Bingham's quantum leap.

You might stabilize the liner on the cabin side by drilling holes in it where the arch will bear and inject the space inside with epoxy and cabosil. Easy.

I'd play with the gimp now if I could. I'd see how the forward double bunk idea would work with the new arch and still allow the head easy access. Or not. (338 has a bulkhead now where the cross piece was in the original V-berth layput - keeps the anchors, ground tackle and warps separate from the accomadation - but it brings the bed WAY out into the cabin). If all sleeping by a couple could be up forward there as one single while under way, and one double while parked, it would be hard not to go for it. It would permanently free up at least half the cabin, The table could still be used and the galley. As for the head, a midget potti could be made available in the cabin or out in the cockpit.

Add that the hatch right over head is a clincher for this arrangement.
Another is that as a single, sleeping with head forward or head aft is an option too.

epiphany

11-14-2005, 06:06 PM

Ebb - Now I have even more of your posts to think about. I'll leave you with this non-scary, no scifi GIMP drawing of the slideout dinette, while I go think about your ideas... :)

Mike - It's not athwartships, but I haven't ruled that one out yet. ;)

http://liquid-epiphany.com/images/photoalbum/17/interior_b&w5d_600.jpg

mbd

11-15-2005, 06:24 AM

Kurt, your GIMPiness is the coolest! One of these long cold winter evenings I'm going to do some GIMPing of my own. What a great way to preview your mods.

I think you're on to something with the pull-out idea. Kind of taking a pull-out chart table to the next step.

After reading you and ole Ebb go at it though, I must confess that I'm a little relieved that the stock setup mostly works for my clan. (Wife and 2 kids) Each of the kiddos have picked out their "beds". Hopefully, next summer we'll do our first overnighter. But this is your thread...

A couple of thoughts:
What if you had the cabin steps to the right instead of the left, so it would be a straight shot to the v-berth when the pullouts were deployed - or move the pull outs and storage to port...

I like the open feel down below as well, but it seems by removing bulkhead walls, you're also removing valuable surface area which could be used for cabinet/shelf/storage space. Fine, even desirable for us weekender/daysailors, but you long term guys might need every little crevice and surface you can eek out.

Lastly, I love dinettes, but Ebb has got me thinking for your purposes (long range cruisers) a pilot berth that could be converted to a double at anchor definitely has its merits.

ebb

11-15-2005, 07:10 AM

Kurt.
Do I see two sinks in yer gimp - a round and rectangle?

Mike,
I'm all for the original layout. As conceived it's great for weekending and a fabulous boat for getting the young out sailing. It's a mystery why, nearing the other end, some want to leave their cozy apartments and TVs to go wander away into the jaws of the dragon. Stir crazy to star crazy!

The original bulkhead is a post and beam with two side struts providing triangulation to support the beam and spread the load of the mast.

It turns out, after spending some late nite on the net, that the arch and beam is as old and venerable as the post and beam. Some owners have to rebuild the compression bulkhead because of rot and shrinkage. I now believe that the beam in conjunction with an arch is the strongest structure you can have supporting the mast. It could be a much lighter structure than what I have ended up with in my rebuild. That bulkhead under the mast has one purpose and that is to support the deck stepped mast. If it can be done better, then it probably should. And if it opens up the accomodation, that's way cool imco.

For instance, the beam could be an I-beam or truss (instead of a heavy white oak lam as 338 has now) The remaining pieces of ply bulkhead (spandrels) could be 1/2" or 3/8". The arch would still anchor at the V-berth bulkhead, with the load taken up by the hull well tabbed to the remaining bulkhead. The plywood under the deck would remain for locker sides (and equally strange thru deck upper shroudplates.) The forward stateroom could now be partitioned with any material soft or hard. Any furniture would be self supporting and could be designed to ignore the arch/beam. I'll leave it alone now.

mbd

11-15-2005, 07:25 AM

Ebb, I believe Capt'n K. indicated the circle was for the stove. Another nice idea, BTW, the vent the heat.

How about a simple support post for the mast ala the Commanders? Do away with the bulkhead entirely and have the entrance to the v-berth to one side and a bulkhead to the other?

On another note: imagine Steve's Sirocco mini-settee as a pull out convertable athwartship bunk. Seems like it'd be cozy. Without the wet locker there, it could be a double easily - perhaps not long enought for the likes of Ebb, however. Still room aft for galley, pilot berth, and stowage. Man, did Steve do a nice job on his boat!

epiphany

11-15-2005, 07:57 AM

Fellas -

This is great - thanks for the ideas and input, there is much to ponder and it is all helping me as I decide on where to go.

Wanted to post this one quick-like. This is where I am heading with the area under the bridgedeck. Lots of people poo-poo the Ariel hanging locker, and though I use it just fine, I understand why - it is small. Still, I see a need for a place to hang sodden, dripping foulies. Having to take them thru the cabin to hang up doesn't seem like much of a good idea. Another thing which has niggled at me has been that big area under the cockpit floor. It begs for stowage, but is not a good spot when one is trying to avoid stern squatting - anything stowed there must be lightweight. Access to the area is a little difficult, also - pulling out the steps, there is still a pretty narrow area for access. So I came up with this compromise. Removing the sink and cabinetry in the under-bridgedeck area will make access to the under-cockpit area much better, and having some hooks or a bar mounted up under the bridgedeck, next to the collapsible ladder would make for a good foulie hanging/draining spot (it's right over the bilge sump, too).

Second pic is "ladder in the up position" - I thought maybe the first pic might be confusing visually.

ebb

11-15-2005, 09:34 AM

Kurt,
As Bill might say, why not put a nice little Beta back there!

epiphany

11-15-2005, 09:59 AM

Well, as much as I liked my last diesel (a Universal), I gotta say "No Way!". :) I like the outboard and well setup even more, it has many advantages. 1) Cheaper engine (and parts!). 2) The engine is more serviceable. 3) The prop can be pulled clear of the water for a clean sailing underbody. 4) No thru-hulls! 5) No grounding system/engine corrosion. 6) Runs much quieter with less vibration. 7) More stowage room belowdecks. 8) The 6hp 4 stroke o/b uses less fuel (the diesel was a 12hp - I'd get about 3 hours runtime/gallon with it, vs 4 hrs/gallon for this outboard).

The only drawback is that the o/b isn't nearly as powerful. Powering into 25/30 knots of wind is approaching the limits of what is possible with my o/b. I found that out heading to my hurricane hole for Ophelia this year. I left almost too late! :o It was difficult to keep her head to wind out in the middle of the Bay where there was a good fetch.

Though the o/b weight is more in the stern, it is substantially lighter than a diesel - I figure about 4-5 times lighter - so I call that issue a wash.

If I ever got a diesel, though, it would be a Beta.

Robert Lemasters

11-15-2005, 10:31 AM

I agree that an outboard has advantages, my Nissan 6 hp 4 stroke is very good on fuel, I did however change the prop pitch per Mike Goodwin, who has the same engine on his Ariel. One advantage that I like, is the fact that you can steer with an outboard motor should something happen to the rudder. The four stroke dosn't make very much noise, even going full speed, I like that. :)

commanderpete

11-15-2005, 10:57 AM

Its not GIMP technology, but this is how I was picturing Kurt's dinette and bunk

mbd

11-17-2005, 02:25 PM

Just to keep you guys thinking, I ran across these the other night while wandering the "For Sale" sites. A couple of interesting ideas. The Bristol 26 shows a longer bulkhead with the dinette setup. The Invicta 26 has a raised vberth so you could make room for the feet on the settees. This setup could free up the aft of the cabin for galley space and storage. If I recall, the Wing 25 had this foot cubby setup on one side too.

epiphany

11-17-2005, 07:48 PM

OK, you made me think. :)

About how much height there is at the forward part of the Vberth. There is planty of room, and some reason, to put a shallow (but wide) self-draining foredeck locker there. Maybe 6" deep inside. It would stiffen the foredeck, and make for a convienent - and perhaps safer/quicker - place to stow anchor rodes. Could even have a smaller partition integral for headsail-related gear/tools. Or, there's room there to glass in a 6" block of foam, if your quest was ffor a buoyancy-neutral vessel (like Jim Baldwins Triton Atom may be).

Ebb is not allowed to do that because he has a nice large hatch there, with a nice locker area below. I bet he feels relieved at that. :D

mbd

11-17-2005, 08:04 PM

Naw, think really BIG "E"! Figure out a way to add an Anchor Locker (http://www.practical-sailor.com/newspics/charts/892anchorlocker.pdf)! Now that would be really cool! :cool:

epiphany

12-05-2005, 04:46 PM

This will interest Ebb and maybe TonyG, as we've discussed this idea...

Cutting the main bulkhead away to open up the interior.

Well, there is a Bristol 27 on eBay right now where the owner has done that, to a degree. Here's one pic, there are a few more (but no really good ones) in the ad - link follows...

eBay B27 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Bristol-27-Yacht-sailboat-in-GA_W0QQitemZ4595844698QQcategoryZ63730QQrdZ1QQcmdZ ViewItem#ebayphotohosting)

Mike - still thinking about that anchor locker. :)

epiphany

12-05-2005, 04:54 PM

...and here is the latest GIMP revision. Interior sans steps and sink. IIRC, Bill@231's post the other day which commented on placement of the sink off-centerline was grist for thought. I'd been thinking to put the sink off to starboard. Rolling over other possibilties in my mind right now. The large starboard stowage/galley setup I cobbled together as a prototype onboard has been functioning well, not at all intrusive or claustrophobic. Last night I removed the last vestiges of the icebox - the bottom, which had been serving as a shelf there in the corner. Ebb, I climbed into that area and thought about your pilot berth... :D

This was right before I went onboard a transient's Hinckley Bermuda 40 to help them connect to the marina network. Yowza. 3rd Hinckley I've been on, though I didn't get to sail on this one - what great boats. What HUGE price tags. :D

ebb

12-06-2005, 07:34 AM

That GIMP, what a great fun tool!
I finding it difficult to figure out what's actual or what's virtual.
But since it's a drawing, comments are acceptable, right?
Anyway, the q'berth looks more comfortable now. If it isn't used for bunking, the stowage it represents is more accessable. AND it's still a settee. Tho you may have to sling a back support under the shelf?

Interesting you have brought the bridge deck forward. This would create athwartship stowage if it is designed as a locker with lids in the c'pit seats.
But why not put the breaker and panel 'box' you show into the space above the berth? Design it as a door to provide access behind the displays.
Then that table there might become the chart table, perhaps with a further pull out extension?

I like the 'sparse' ladder for the moment. (Not having kids, I favor three rungs.) Your cabinet placement lends me to see what might happen in 338. One thing I would toy with is to do away with the ladder and somehow design steps in the furniture, either pull-outs or fold-downs. Right? I have to do it because the only standing room inside is with the hatch open! So I would rather have the room to turn around in than the convenience of a stairway. If you have an inboard then this is probably moot.

Had a ladder once in another boat with wide rungs and stiles that was comfortable to climb, yet could be lifted, when below, and set back out of the way. You just pulled it forward again to use. It could also easily be removed to gain access under the cockpit. The legs were in sockets on the sole in climbing position and the top of the stiles were captured in slots in the counter. Didn't get a patent on it. Probably do it again.

Master stateroom double is the V-berth, right? With no pull-out settee in the main?

epiphany

12-06-2005, 06:26 PM

But since it's a drawing, comments are acceptable, right?
Anyway, the q'berth looks more comfortable now. If it isn't used for bunking, the stowage it represents is more accessable. AND it's still a settee. Tho you may have to sling a back support under the shelf?

Comments are *always* welcome. :) The foot area of the q'berth could indeed act as stowage, and I do plan for some seatback storage areas - perhaps a la Frank's #50 Revival...

Interesting you have brought the bridge deck forward. This would create athwartship stowage if it is designed as a locker with lids in the c'pit seats.

I see how you saw that. lol I wasn't planning on bringing that forward, I was pushing the bulkhead *below the level of the current counter* aft. The drawing is too 2-D too show that, I need a shadow there or something.

But why not put the breaker and panel 'box' you show into the space above the berth? Design it as a door to provide access behind the displays.
Then that table there might become the chart table, perhaps with a further pull out extension?

Never got around to removing the panel from the drawing, haven't given a lot of thought as to where to put it just yet. Into that box with the other electronics would be a good spot. Having a pull-out table there is a good idea, and will be filed as a possibility.

Regarding the ladder - I have an idea you might be able to use, I'll do a simple GIMP of it and post it in a few minutes.

Master stateroom double is the V-berth, right? With no pull-out settee in the main?

Well, you got me on that one. All this time everyone has been saying, basically, "What, no double???". :) As I see no prospects for a First Mate in the foreseeable future, I've been planning on not worrying about having a double very much. But yesterday evening after posting, I had a brainstorm, inspired in part by crawling into the ex-icebox area and imaging your pilot berth. I'll be GIMP'ing it up in order to present it to "The Modifications Committee" ;) here, and see what kind of feedback it generates. It may well solve many of my quandries, and is a far departure from anything I've seen done yet. Not that that is what I am trying to do - I'm just trying to keep thinking "out of the box", hoping that by doing so I may stumble across workable ideas that hadn't come to me any other way.

epiphany

12-06-2005, 08:48 PM

OK, here's the folding ladder idea. I thought of this a while back. Basically, one leg would be permanent, affixed between cabin sole and top, the other leg would be hinged on the steps, opening the ladder would fold it down. In the closed position, it would take up minimal space, and could act as a handhold. I've been thinking to orient it so that it was aligned fore and aft (off to one side or the other of the companionway), but an athwartships configuration would work also. The problem with athwartships is that it would either be vertical down from the companionway (not good in a pitching,rocking boat with wet footwear on, I'd imagine), or it would have to be set some distance out from the companionway, into the cabin.

Here's a drawing:

epiphany

12-06-2005, 09:26 PM

OK, this is the other idea...

Basically, it is a U shaped platform at the aft end of the cabin, with the cabinetry/stowage forward of the legs of the U on either side. The middle of the U will be where the ladder (a telescoping ladder, as before, *not* the ladder in the above drawing) comes down from the companionway. This space - the middle of the U - would have a drop-in platform/cushion that would make it into a double. The pilot berth would extend aft under one cockpit locker as before.

This balances out the weight of the cabinet stowage, makes the double an athwartships berth, and still provides a pilot berth for at sea, when it would be unlikely that the double would be in use were there ever 2 souls aboard. The legs of the U would make for an athwartships dinette, if a table were implemented.

This idea is still very much in the developmental stage, but I think it might be workable. :D The drawing below is just to illustrate the concept, and is not at all close to scale.

I'm wondering how structural is the aft bulkhead in it's original position? Could a lower part of it be moved aft 12" or so without affecting the integrity of the hull? I think a double should be 48" wide or so. That puts the forward edges of the U arms 2/3 of the way towards the current forward edge of the berths, leaving only 40" of countertop space for each side. The countertops will have a sink, stove, and icebox opening in them, leaving not a lot of room to spread a chart, or whatever else the flat space might be used for - food prep, etc... Nudging the U berth aft would give a little more room to play with.

Edit: Oops! Uploaded a 1024 wide drawing. Scaled it back...

epiphany

12-09-2005, 09:52 PM

Merry Christmas everyone, from Kurt, the CrewDogs, and Katie Marie! (If Christmas isn't your holiday, insert appropriate celebration!) :)

frank durant

12-10-2005, 06:57 PM

GREAT X-MAS CARD !! The best to you too Kurt and the entire crew here.Hope we all sail more and work/worry less in 06.Health and happiness to all.

epiphany

12-11-2005, 06:12 AM

Thank you Mr. Frank, and the same to you and yours! :)

Yesterday, after the annual marina Christmas pig was picked clean and the revelry had ended, I set about changing Katie's interior to something resembling that last GIMP graphic above. It's gonna work (yay!) and, it seems that it'll work well. Slept athwartships last night, in the space just forward of the steps/original countertop. Come warmer weather, it will be nice to lie abed and gaze up through the open sliding hatch at the sky and stars. Have a lot of details to figure out, but I'll post here when there is new news...

frank durant

12-11-2005, 08:14 AM

I like that arrangement...check out the 'falmouth cutter 22ft'...It has a swing-up filler that makes it into a U-shape.It would be hard to beat that for space !! http://www.samlmorse.com/?a=falmouth_cutter

mbd

12-12-2005, 07:46 PM

Merry Christmas everyone, from Kurt, the CrewDogs, and Katie Marie! (If Christmas isn't your holiday, insert appropriate celebration!) :)
Bah humbug! (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=2961&stc=1) :mad:

epiphany

12-13-2005, 07:10 AM

LOL, Mike. :)

You know, that really *is* a good picture (all the fluffy rain excepted). When I saw it, those shapely underwater Alberg lines, my breath drew up for just a second. Remember the old adage about wanting a boat that, whenever you are leaving it, you have to stop and look back *just one more time* before you walk out of sight? That's how I am with these boats - smitten like a sweaty palmed high school junior on prom night. lol :D

Frank - I looked all over that site for an image depicting the swing-up filler you mentioned, didn't see it. Imagination will suffice, and besides, I saw a bunch of very nice pics anyway. :) Those are sweet boats, very shippy. Lotta room and function for a 22'er.

And funny that you should mention that boat, because it was Mike above who sent me a picture some time back of the FC22 interior (below), a picture that I just found on Friday or Saturday in my old email account. It was this picture which made me start to think of the possibility of an aft U-berth. Looking at it, it is easy to imagine a U berth below the companionway, unseen, and the rest of the pic shows what will basically be my setup once done.

Couple of notes on that:

{ramble on}

I have a friend who is gutting and rebuilding from bare-hull-out a Tartan 26. He is planning a very similar setup to what I have chosen through my "research", although he hasn't made up his mind totally on it yet. He also came to this interior config through a period of experimentation and some living aboard. I'd forgotten of his plans until Sunday, when some subconcious thought connected a couple of barely used neurons, and I went to his website and rooted around to rediscover his plan drawings. Interesting how the brain works. His ideas must have rested deep in my head for a long time, jarred from hiding by Mikes pic and some moving about of my storage bins. :)

Yesterday I took my settee cushion (I've only had one aboard since May or thereabouts, since I began playing with different layouts - and only 1 V-berth cushion too) to my shop, pulled the foam out and chopped it up. First, I cut away the hull-hugging curve, making the cushion a plain rectangle, about 23" wide, a shade over 6' long. Then I cut it into 2 pieces - 1 that is 24" long, and the other is the rest of the cushion. The long piece I cut halfway through in the middle, to make folding it into a 90 degree angle easier. Then I whipped up a couple of quicky covers for the pieces out of some Gore-Tex material. I brought the cushions back aboard last night for their first night of service. Worked great. I can leave the smaller cushion on one side of the boat, and fold the larger cushion into a seat shape on the other, the folded-up half resting against the hull, vertically. I think that eventually, though, there will be 3 pieces, the (when set up as a berth) center piece will just be set off to a side when not being slept upon.

Since I've moved all of my storage containers around to this new configuration, Katie sits levelly now, heeling only a couple of degrees when Cap'n and one or more Crew have moved off center. Before, with all the stowage to one side, she wanted to maintain a constant (though slight) heel, even with counterbalancing weight placed up in the V-berth on the opposite side. For some reason, having most of the weight lined up athwartships gives the boat a different, better feel. It may well be that the weight is much closer to the CB, or just forward of it, with this configuration. That's a Good Thing, I think she'll have less of that "squatty" tendency now.

Last, I am giving serious thought to pushing the berth-wall part of the aft bulhead back a foot or so, so that it would sit just forward of the cockpit locker hatch forward end. The cockpit footwell would project into the cabin over the center of the U berth if this was done, but at the same level as the current countertop, which should provide space enough for someone lying down there. If this mod was done, it would move the U-berth back far enough that the bottom inside edge of the U would be almost straight down from the companionway, not poking out underneath it. That extra foot of space along the current settees would allow me to leave in place the original hanging locker and drawers, both of which I find useful and handy. If I don't push back the bulkhead, I will probably have to remove the locker and drawers in the interest of countertop space. I think the work involved in either project would be basically about the same, so personal preference will basically be the deciding factor. If I move the aft bulkhead, I would put in place on the hull a low profile vertical stringer so as not to compromise any strength or stiffening the hull recieves from the bulkhead. Depending on how much room was under the cockpit footwell, a pull out (or simply removeable) dinette table could be made to fit/fix there, a la the Falmouth Cutter table. The legs of the U berth would act as dinette seats for the table, which would be at the current countertop height.

Edit: I also wouldn't mind a little less volume in the cockpit footwell, in case of boarding seas. It's concievable that the forward foot or so of it could be rebuilt in order to accomplish this, while giving that over-berth area some additional height. Just a thought at this stage...

Ebb - now the only thing I am lacking is seating at a height to allow level gazing out of the deadlights while seated. But, I have ideas for that, too. :)

{ramble off}

Y'all have a great day! :)

frank durant

12-13-2005, 10:22 AM

Wow....you gotta type faster than me...I'd be all day with that responce!! the cutter site has been changed..less pics .BUT the one you posted shows the 'flip-up filler' that makes it into a real nice U-shaped galley. Keep thinkin..have fun

mbd

12-13-2005, 11:01 AM

"E", you could also use the chart table type pull out model for "temporary" counterspace all along the aft of the cabin and above your new sleeping quarters. Could be useful for cooking or navigating or whatever, i.e. when you're not sleeping in the space immediately below.

A recent Ariel that was sold,"Tullen Tie" or something like that, had these pull outs. I may have downloaded some pictures of it at home. But it seemed like a very practical idea. (And yes, Bill, I 'searched' but didn't find that thread...) :)

epiphany

12-13-2005, 04:47 PM

Believe me, I looked at those pull-outs with much interest.:)

This sketch shows the above ideas.

epiphany

03-14-2006, 09:22 PM

Shot this pic last night under the light of the full moon. Note CrewDogs on foredeck. :)

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/IMG_3188_web.JPG

epiphany

08-28-2006, 05:54 AM

Some shots of what I've done so far w/the bulkhead and strongback removal, and the "starting in" on the semi-temporary interior modification. Everything here is done rough, done just well enough that I can live with it for a while, see how it works, and then change it easily should I decide to do so when doing it up proper after I am sure that the design is right.

Side note: I think I've mentioned here before that I would like to make the boat have positive flotation so that I won't need to carry a liferaft. Based on what James Baldwin has written up on his website in regards to "Atom", I'm ballparking 10 cu/ft of flotation per 1000 lbs of displacement. He calculated 86.5 cu/ft of float needed for his gross displacement of 9000 lbs. With that figure, he said erred on the side of caution. I am doing the same to *his* figures, figuring on a gross displacement of 6500 lbs for "Katie", needing 65 cu/ft of flotation when done. This is some 1400 lbs over the "factory" figure, which should give me a comfortable margin when she is loaded for a long trip.

The compartmentalization I am building in will be a number of smaller, individual chambers which will serve dual purposes. Should the hull be breached, the chambers affected will be sealable in order to limit water ingress, while the other chambers will serve as watertight air pockets to provide flotation until in-water repairs can be done. There will also be a lot of foam used in the finished construction. So far, with what I've measured up based on what I have now, I shouldn't have any problem reaching my goal. Cool! :)

OK, enough of that, on to the pics...

I've cut away a lot of the bulkhead, enough to approximate what I'd like the final form to look like. Again, this is all very rough right now, with wires hanging out, and a coat of white latex painted not too carefully on some surfaces just to make them look a little better until they get ripped all the way out... :)

epiphany

08-28-2006, 06:03 AM

As you can see, I used some of the original trim to "clean up" the look of all those rough cuts. It is simply trimmed to fit the new arrangement, in order to make it look halfway decent.

In this shot and by looking closely, you can see the lines I penned onto the overhead which show the location of the mast base pad, and the outside dimensions of the new strongback. Edit: The original strongback/bulkhead provided support only about twice as wide as the dark area you can see here. The new one will be 3 times as wide.

I'll be cutting back the overhead liner so that it butts into the after edge of the new strongback. I considered leaving it in place, but it is just too different of a shape from the inner deck skin. Also, it was apparently trimmed (sloppily) in place at the factory, and so there are cuts into the inner skin along that line that I want to repair prior to inserting the strongback.

epiphany

08-28-2006, 06:11 AM

Looking forward, you can see to port the first of the large compartments I am putting into the vberth area. I'd been thinking to leave a 20-24" wide "channel" inbetween matching cabinets up there, and having that channel serve as a bunk if ever needed. Now, and instead, the cabinet to port will have a 6' long, 24" wide flat surface on top which can be used as the same. Going this route should provide more storage (which equals more closed space for float), better round-the-body airflow whenever it is being slept on, and a nice wide working surface.

epiphany

08-28-2006, 06:12 AM

A vertical composition showing what it looks like from the companionway/cockpit.

epiphany

08-28-2006, 06:15 AM

And last, looking from starboard at the forward port storage compartment. Later today I'll be making and installing the last 2 internal dividers, and then putting the top onto it.

We have a hurricane headed this way, it looks like. I'll be busting hump to get in the strongback prior to evacuating, if I have to. :)

ebb

08-28-2006, 07:21 AM

Kurt,
That asymetric open 'look' is great, ain't it!
Can understand your quest for a flatter beam. Wonder what you will come up with? If you are keeping the original lockers, would support s.s. 'pipes' at the corners be in the plan? Maybe inset a little (set off the corners outboard) the eye might accept them more as 'cosmetic' than structural - and keep that wonderful openness.

If I hadn't already committed 338 to its deep internal beam - your photos show implicitly how important no break in the cabin/deck line really is - I would seriously consider putting the beam ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE CABIN!!!
If one could engineer a flat beam and turn the corners down to the deck (where interior knees would pick up the load and take it to the hull) I think, with rounded Albergian corners, such a beam would hardly be noticed. Well. not exactly. But I'd mock up a model in foam to find out.

The eliptical round of the inside cabin is really great and helps to give the interior a larger feeling. One of the huge problems with the Ariel is gaining stowage. It looks like you are succeeding.

Never mentioned with enclosed 'watertite' lockers is the issue of moisture and mold. And actual watertightness in the event of a surprise holing or knock-down. How do you gasket the lids and doors? On another thread, just recalled Yves Galinas' A-30, that survived a 360 - and the reason it did, we might suppose, is that he isolated the four bulkheads. Opening up the interior makes locker waterproofing moist important. I'm here waiting for your calculations on the cubics!!! :confused:

epiphany

08-28-2006, 09:55 AM

Ebb -

I ***love*** the openness. Before, this boat didn't seem any bigger than my old Com-Pac 23. Now, I know it is, and it feels "freer". It also seems a little cooler - I think that air is circulating better, being wide open like this.

Funny you should mention an exterior deck beam. When I was gazing at the underside of the strongback-less deck for the first time, I started giving thought to that space between the inner and outer deck skin... :o

Could be that it would be possible to remove the outer skin and coring in a wide configuration like I've been thinking, and replace it with something structurally stronger. If that structure could spread load across the cabin trunk top out to the sides, and was supported on the underside by the vertical poles, it would work nicely, and I don't think would have to be very visually noticeable at all from the exterior. On the inside, you could have an unbroken span. It would be pretty easy to bed a metal plate between many layers of glass inside that space. If, as you propose, that metal plate wrapped around and conformed to the whole cabin top shape, and was thick enough for the stresses, it might not even need any interior support. Bliss!

Hmmm... Gad, you got me started again... :)

Re: cubics and related such:

Moisture and mold: I don't think it will be much of a problem. Why? Because these are relatively small boats. There just _aren't_ any lockers which remain closed long enough for it to develop to any appreciable degree. I've found that I am constantly diving into every storage bin I have, because I only have aboard that which I *need*. Maybe on a larger boat lockers sit unopened long enough for mildew to be an issue, because you have places to put infrequently used "stuff" and forget about it, but I haven't found that to be the case on this boat or my last one. Even if I don't use something much, it still gets regular exposure to fresh air because it sits near something which I do use on a regular basis, and so its locker gets ventilated. Keep in mind that where I am, we have 6+ months of the year with temps regularly exceeding 80*, and humidity rarely drops below 70% - prime mildew country, and it just hasn't been a problem at all. The only place I've seen mildew develop is on the inside of the hull. The lockers will be finished with a slick surface on the inside, to make cleanup the matter of a few simple wipes.

Flotation: I'm picking it up wherever I can. :)

Right now, for this temporary structure of compartments, I am using scrap plywood I have gathered up (recycling ;) ), but for the end product, I'll be using sheet foam instead. I'm leaning towards polyurethane foam and polyester resins, not epoxy, mostly because of price, and also because of ease-of-use (i'm very familiar with PU/PE construction). For the cabinet structures, they'll be a slab of foam skinned with glass, cut and used just like plywood, after they've cured hard (laid up outside of boat). For install, the side which faces into the boat may get a layer of formica or luan for impact resistance. Just the structure of the compartments I will be building in, made in this manner, will net several cubic feet of positive flotation, and be lighter than wood to boot.

I'll be stuffing glassed-over foam into all odd and difficult to reach places. I've been wanting to insulate the hull anyway, so I plan to put 2" of foam up against the hull throughout the interior of the boat - this will bring the inner wall of the hull level with the stringer which runs along it, and will give 8+ cubic feet of flotation by itself. I think I can get 10-15cu/ft into the cockpit lockers and under-cockpit area. I'm going to use bladders for water tanks, I may lay them into compartments where all the extra space around the bladder is foamed. The storage compartments up in the v-berth will give about 25 cu/ft of closed space. In the end, the closed-off and foamed spaces will total more than 65 cu/ft, because some of them will be partially filled with heavier-than-water substances.

The individual compartment lids will sit on gasketed lips, with pre-drilled holes for watertightly securing them to the compartment. All these holes will be the same size, so that they'll use the same size fasteners. Fasteners and a manual tool to put them in place quickly will be stowed handy in case they are needed, so that completely closing off a compartment where water is coming in can be done with minimal fuss. At sea, the compartments will stay closed, partly fastened already - not too hard to access if needed, easy to secure against ingress. I can pull out several days worth of stores, to be stowed in an easy-access compartment, every few days/as needed - kind of like "reefing early". :)

ebb

08-28-2006, 11:09 AM

IF

The top core would be merely a surgery to remove the foam and replace with solid.

That's a pretty good curve to the top and a structure incorporating the side strut supports with the cross-beam into a single piece could be made very strong. And essentially non-deflecting. Too bad we don't have a resident engineer on the board! This may be a perfect project for carbon fiber. Or titanium (just kidding).

If one could take a bit of intrusion into the interior maybe laying in a tubular sectioned curve by cutting the top of the cabin completely out (and reconnecting it back up would get the bridge. Or putting 1/2 of the section outside and the other half in. It would create an deeper bump which might not be the clean look you want.

One could 'play' with the outside beam, designing in rigidity, by incorporating a tabernacle. Like a partial truss. I feel that interior posts and pipe that are built off the furniture are secondary. True support would be continuous (contiguous) to some load spreading floor/rib/contraption actually on the keel and hull.

Just noticed (working on the port V-berth tank in 338) that I doubled up on the tank end that is on the remnant of the compression bulkhead. End supports for the compression beam end on the V-berth as Pearson had it - but instead of depending on screws alone coming in thru the plywood, now there is SOME more solid support (1 1/2" plus frp) from the hull under those struts. Again, I feel you have to consider non continuous support as ACTIVE. Meaning: expect movement to occur.

External beam sounds too good to be true. Has it been too easy for builders to steal space from the accomadation to support the mast? Maybe it is time....

mbd

08-28-2006, 01:34 PM

Hey Kurt, have you considered a simple Commander-like compression post under the mast?

A couple of options come to mind with this setup:

1. You could bring the half wall on the port side out to it. It would give you some interesting storage and counter possibilities in the forward portion of the cabin. For the starboard side, with all the surgery you're doing, you could revise or remove the hanging locker (or move it to somewhere more useful, like near the companionway). Then your access forward would be to starboard of the compression post. It would leave the starboard settee portion of your v-berth nice and open, and, I daresay, open up the interior even more.

2. Have your access forward to port of the post and shorten your port storage area for access forward. With this setup, you could even move your head to starboard to the foot of the v-berth, right behind the bulkhead. This would give at least a tiny bit of privacy for mixed company and more leg room in the v-berth area.

epiphany

08-30-2006, 04:54 AM

Giving the above suggestions much thought as I prepare for a visit from Ernesto...

Ebb - Here's a thought to twist yer noodle: Whaddabout if the outer skin were removed, and a 2" beam of wood or composite were placed _both inside *and* out_? :D

Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest. Thanks for the reminder, I'm rolling it around my brainpan again now...

Like this thought which just occurred: Why not make that support *removeable*? If the beam were made strong enough to support the (tensioned) rig at rest/anchor without deflecting, then the mast support could be removed when not needed, yet also be put in place prior to leaving port. That way it would only be 'in the way' at sea, where extra handholds are a boon anyway. If it had threaded bases, and was carefully made to the proper length, it could be tensioned up against the beam once in place.

:D :eek: :rolleyes:

OK - Gotta go get ready for Ernesto...

ebb

08-30-2006, 06:01 AM

Kurt/Ernesto, guys,
Must admit to surprising self with the CUT OUT WHOLE CABINTOP /INSTALL BEAM /RECONNECT. That's what I meant, anyway. It allows a more substantial beam which my prejudice goes for. It's not an impossible scenario.

If the job was a frp layup it would be easy (and absolutely necessary) to key the cabin top right back into the new beam. The idea means that the internal truss part of the beam (if it can be called that) can use the whole depth of the beam (3 - 3 1/2") for stiffness. Maybe design it so it humps up outside as well as in. The mast would stand on it.

I can see the arch done this way, but I would not cut open the cabin sides. The side compression struts seem just as important as the beam to me but they don't have to have the same depth or thickness. Well, of course, maybe they do, I no engineer. If possible it would be smart to run this by one, tho. All interior, but cutting back the liner for more room and to paste them in, if necessary, for the width you want.*

If you agree with me that the side struts are necessary to support the beam even tho it is built in (I think the cabin sides should be beefed up to eliminate any bulging, or flex and the stuts anchored as far down in the boat as they can go.) then they could be constructed first and the box-form for the beam layup made to connect them as part of the beam layup. They should be very stiff, imco, to resist any torsioning of the bridge, changing of shape, that rig and mast pressure could produce.

Then, your keepers, the extra supports, pipes, whatever could be removed for convenience when the sails are not flying.
Then again, they may be totally unnecessary. That arch is less than 4' across - it should be a piece of cake to make a rigid curve that will take 2 1/2 sponberg tons of point load. H m m m m m . That IS a lot to ask.

__________________________________________________ ________________________________
* The cabin sides on the Ariel are flat, maybe around 1/8"+ thick layup. Tho the front curves so nicely around and also the sweet transition of sides to top - and is therefore a strong shape - the flat sides seem vulnerable to me to being deflected. I can't imagine how mast forces could do it, but anything is possible. Beam supports coming down the cabin sides as 338 has and being part of the remaining bulkhead under the deck ought to keep the sides from moving. They are kind of like arms and have a full lapjoint with the beam ends. If I did it over and became convinced a glass or carbon structure could be made strong enough (and perhaps it could be by tabbing and incorporating it totally into the cabin) I would do it. Because it is consistant with and a logical extension of the Ariel's monocque construction.
That wood beam is a left over from the past.

mbd

08-30-2006, 06:04 AM

Mold: I think it's been mentioned by someone before, but I'm planning on having moldicide mixed into the paint when I redo the interiors of the lockers and cabin.

Flotation: I like your idea for getting every ounce of extra flotation on board with the glassed in foam.
With the recore, the whole foam sandwich has been on my mind a lot. I've been thinking I'll have some Corecell left over and wondering what I might be able to make using the same method - perhaps a little dink?

Mike - I have considered it before, and the idea keeps coming back to me as the KISS way to get the mostest with the leastest. I'm a big fan of KISS (not the band). I've been thinking the compression post will someday be the key to adding an enclosed head... :D

ebb

08-30-2006, 05:32 PM

Coming back from the boat today, I experienced one of those instant visons you get once in a while, in this case a vivid picture of a channel across the cabin where the mast would be. A single very live snapshot. That's all I saw. Exciting, huh?

Anyway it was a very heavy epoxy/glass green fairly shallow curved affair with shadows at the ends that makes me think now that they curved down and had some kind of attachment with the interior. My tangible feeling was that it is a drop in. Not done in place. It seemed to be just sitting waiting to be worked in.

Surmise (assuming the image was, shall we say, sent on some legitimate spirit channel) that something was definitely missing. IE the guts in this fiberglass channel. The obvious rest of it. By an extension of the first image it's obvious that the channel is meant to have a wide top put over it that has the same heavy section, probably an even heavier top and a number of 1/4" ribs inside. The whole thing bonded together.

epiphany

10-26-2006, 12:07 PM

Back-n-forth, backnforth...backnforthbacknforth... :)

I've been going round and round on what to make the beam of and how to construct it, and composites have won out in the end.

Right now I have 2 pieces of 1" thick foam cut to fit the outer edges of the beam area, sitting in place and defining the space needed, while I look and ponder. They are 2.5" in the vertical dimension, and the for'd edge to the after is 8". I'm going to do the "box" construction I drew up several posts back, with approx 1/4" of glass between each foam layer.

At 2.5", it doesn't noticeably 'intrude' into the open feeling of the cabin as I have it, so I will probably stick to that dimension. I'll probably taper them down somewhat on the verticals where the beam meets the cabin trunk, perhaps to 1" of protrusion.

Ebb - I gave much thought to doing the external beam concept, but figure that I will leave that mod for someone else to try. :)

Mike - A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. He's the guy who works in composites. Once again I was bouncing the idea of the foam-cored, glass-skinned homemade 'plywich' off of him. Big dilemma there is the amount of $$$ I would have to spend on 1) epoxy resin if I used pink/blue polystyrene foam, or 2) the difficulty and expense of finding suitable thickness polyurethane foam if using polyester resins. Plus, there would be a lot of work simply in laying up the panels themselves, and then sanding, getting them flat and true enough that they'll look decent.

He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that. It can then be affixed into the boat with, at least on the big surfaces, a simple layer or two of 6 oz glass and polyester resin. Brilliant! Sure, epoxy would be better, and I will use that in structural areas (like the beam), but this way I can have a cheap, easily shapeable yet tough foam-cored structure for the cabinetry below.

I'll be making a trip up to the bigbox hardware store soon in order to confirm pricing, but it should result in less time, money, and hassle to use his idea. The only 'drawback' I can see is that the panels will be maybe 3/8" thicker than I had thought they would, which is no issue at all, really, since it is more thickness of a material significantly lighter than water. :)

I'm glad to have found a way to use polyester resins for this. Not just because of expense, but also due to the facts that I'll have less risk of becoming sensitized to those compounds, and mostly due to the fact that I have slung so much polyester over the years that I am most comfortable using it.

And afterall, this boat is made of it, and is still doing just fine after 40 years... :D

mbd

10-27-2006, 04:56 AM

A friend made a great suggestion to me the other day. ...He suggested instead to bond pink/blue foam to a 1/4" plywood using a simple but appropriate adhesive, and cut panels from that.Nice! Thanks for the update. I'm sure you'll be posting pictures soon, eh? :cool:

epiphany

11-06-2006, 07:49 AM

Mike - Later this week, after I purchase the materials, I will be making up the first of my foam/plywood panels, I'll photo document that when it happens. I've been bouncing the idea off of everyone I know who might have input, and so far all have agreed that it should work wonderfully. I hope we're all right on that account... :)

Oh - our first good cold snap of the year has made me realize that I could use some insulation on the hull, so I also plan to go ahead and start installing the 2"-thick layer of foam against the hull in the main cabin area (above settee level), probably also towards the end of the week.

Todays 'of interest':

I did some cuttin' on the boat this AM. Since I'll be supporting the mast from underneath, I needed to know what structure was in place at the small step-up into the vberth (where the mast support will rest), and I have also wanted to open up the floor area in the v-berth for inspection, with an eye towards eventually cramming some of my positive-flotation foam in there, since I anticipated it would be too small for any real stowage.

The area is a little larger than I expected, so I am not sure what use I will put it to just yet, but here it is, exposed at last for contemplation.

Warning: work-safe pictures follow... :D

This shows the cut-out.

epiphany

11-06-2006, 07:59 AM

Nice bit of grime in there, eh? Be glad I took the pic *after* vacuuming. ;) There is a small, non-draining depression evident, I would assume at the forward upper edge of the encapsulated lead. I will fill the depression in with foam (glassed over) so that it drains properly.

You can see an old water stain on the hull just a couple of inches below the plywood, which is the same level as the main cabin floorboards. It appears as if someone had a water problem sometime in the past 40 years, one not repeated, thankfully...

I also found a receipt in there, wet and dirty in that small depression (along with various other grunge). It came from a company in Maryland, and is dated 1979. It appears to be for labor on a "heat control valv" (sic), so I don't think it is Ariel related. If it is, I plan to turn that sucker *up* when I find it. :D But whatever it was, it cost $28.37 to have done.

OK, here's what it looks like looking forward from down inside...

epiphany

11-06-2006, 08:02 AM

...and looking aft follows. It appears that the only 'structural' member here is another piece of plywood of the same thickness as the bulkhead, lightly tabbed into place. I'll definitely have to strengthen this area for the mast step.

c_amos

11-06-2006, 08:10 AM

Katie has such NICE CLEAN bilges... :D

I had NO idea that there was so much room down there under the forward step up..... I was hoping to stow some extra stuff in there myself, now I KNOW I will be.

It is interesting to me that Katie has a small block formed into the port side in on the deck in this area. Faith has the same block.... but I have not noticed it on any other Ariels I have seen... :confused:

Does anyone know what this tille block/cleat might be for?

(on edit: the one shown in post #119).

epiphany

11-06-2006, 08:14 AM

Craig -

Maybe that is where the "heat control valv" was located? :D:rolleyes:

Tony G

11-06-2006, 07:32 PM

Kurt
That bilge looks like an operating theater!!! What the heck? It almost appears the bilge was painted before the soles went in. I never found anything that looked that good anywhere on 113. Did you do that? Surely it didn't leave the factory like that. Did you cut the first hole up there or was there a smaller hatch in the sole up there?

I can't wait to see the photos of the upcoming work.

Boat junkie, Boat drunk, whatever, that's me....

epiphany

11-07-2006, 08:39 AM

Hi Tony -

I'm not sure when the bilge was painted, but it must have been at the factory, since there was no access there prior to yesterday. The color is also around the edge of the cabin sole and the main bilge, but is not inside the under-bunk settee lockers, though. It's some kind of hella tough paint, maybe even pigmented resin - IIRC, the settee base tabbing was placed *on top of* this mystery gray coating.

My boat is a weirdo, I guess. :) (Hey, that's fitting! ;D) She didn't have diagonal braces on the forward side of the main bulkhead, either. Maybe this is because she was late in the production run (18 hulls or so from last), or maybe she was customized at the factory for whoever the original owner was? I don't know if they did such a thing, but you would assume that they did...

Perhaps we could be called 'boat drunkies' lol :)

epiphany

12-03-2006, 08:04 AM

(This here be a looong post. :) )

Last Sunday I was, as ever, contemplating the boat, and more specifically, my interior and overall plans for the boat.

When I first dropped the mast and cut away the bulkhead a bit ago, I'd planned to construct and install a strongback straightaway. Gradually, as I tried to come up with what would (for me) be the 'bestmost' way to do that, I realized that I needed to give more thought to the overall interior before making the strongback, since it will all be tied together. Everything in these boats adds to or takes away from everything else, I know. So I've held off on the strongback while I figured out my overall plan, which was close to being fully conceived, but not quite.

One thing I will do which quite literally will tie the exterior rigging into the interior plans is to go to hull-mounted chainplates. I want them to be easily inspect-able and maintainable from the inside of the boat as well as the outside. Since interior stuff will be all around (and maybe over) the attachment points, I knew I had to finish my interior concept and place them within it before constructing anything.

SO... that leads to last Sunday, and interior thoughts, which I'll get to after another bit I want to add in here real quick...

A couple of weeks ago I got in touch with James Baldwin, 2-time circumnavigator aboard the Triton "Atom" (http://www.atomvoyages.com). He's a really nice guy. I spoke with him about his voyages, boat, collisions, and unsinkability. I told him of all my plans regarding my construction with the ultimate goal of unsinkability, and he is of the opinion that it will all work. ( Kewl! :) ) Until last Sunday, though, my design was unbalanced. I had good lockers planned for everywhere but the port berth, which I plan to use as my primary place of rest.

The 'default' berth is just under the waterline, and keeping that area open in case of a hull breach would allow a huge space for water, taking away from flotation *and* balance, if the boat were flooded. It would also be a 'light' area of the boat, so I had to counterbalance it with a near-equally empty area in the v-berth to control heeling. Not very efficient, and efficiency is an important consideration for what I am trying to do. I need to use every possible part of the boat.

Quick mention of 2 other "wishes" I've had for the boat: a dinette w/table (for comfort and usability, a la "Braveheart" (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=531)), and an interior seat where I could see out the cabin deadlights when belowdecks.

I'd thought about the dinette a while back, but had pretty much decided that it was out. I plan to use the area under both cabin berths for water tankage (bladders) and flotation, so I didn't want to cut part of that out for the footroom needed if there was a dinette.

As far as the seat, I thought I might be able to, at some point in time, add a mount somewhere for a pedestal seat, like those you see on a bass boat. Maybe not the best solution, but a possibility...

I hadn't considered either of these in quite a long time.

But the brain works in mysterious ways, and that leads (at last) to last Sunday, when I realized I might be able to have a dinette *on top of* the current port berth, a dinette which would also convert into a berth. By making it to the height of the current counter top, it would be plenty long enough for sleeping, would give me storage underneath the ends *and* a footwell, without the need to get into the area where my water tanks and flotation will be. Eureka! ;)

I tossed the idea around in my head this past week, and did some measuring. It seemed like it would work, so yesterday I got busy and slapped together a proof-of-concept dinette/berth. I disassembled the proof-of-concept v-berth storage bins :), and used those pieces to make up a not-pretty, but working, version of the dinette idea.

It is great! :) Sitting at it, the view out the deadlights is perfect, and there is enough room for 2 people to sit across from each other comfortably (if not expansively). I had my dock neighbor, who is 6' 1" tall, try it out, and there was plenty of headroom for him.

The 'table' part drops down between the seats to make a normal Ariel-length single berth (which has a more-level view out the companionway). I did sit up a bit quickly this morning and hit my head on the underside of the sidedeck (not too hard, though, thankfully), but I imagine that I'll learn not to do that pretty quickly. ;)

Right now this is just roughed in, but it works. I have a bunch of ideas to make it much more polished in its final form (fiddles for the table, folding seatback for the after seat, etc...). It helps solve a few problems, and gives me those 'wishes'. The storage underneath the ends allows me to balance the boat better, and will provide more closed space which can be sealed against H2O ingress to add to the overall flotation. I have the table hung from the overhead at it's outer end for support, instead of from
underneath as was done on "Braveheart", and I'll probably keep that element of the design.

Enough babbling, here are some pictures:

http://sailfar.net/images/IMG_4239.JPG

http://sailfar.net/images/IMG_4241.JPG

ebb

12-03-2006, 10:00 AM

Kurt, the mockup looks great! Definitely like the openness of the shelves worked in to the design. And
"A view out the deadlights"
is a catchy future chapter heading if I ever read one.:D

For my large frame in 338, the only seating available will be the dinette.
I'll have, rather than the tanks, more traditional stowage, deep stowage under the seats, because
looking out the deadlights is absolutely necessary for a cruiser! Especially along a dark and stormy coastline....

And sitting in an Ariel at a level to do that requires a dinette, either a double or single to be remodeled in. And when putting on the dog, with an actual table, we'll be able to dine with guests, rather than cramping a buffet.

Often read fore and aft seating put down by sailers in tippy boats - that settees are better for bracing in a seaway - BUT a couple of pillows can wedge a body pretty good. Not too hard to figure out a way to scooch sideways, Right?

Making lockers 'waterproof' is a good way to think... but how realistic is it actually? Found some nice cheap nylon locker drains with a washered screwin plug for dry lockers. And ply lids are out, so we need large screwin access plates for any lockers around the waterline. But I'm worried about mold and ventilation and such. And will the waterline outside really relate to the 1/2 bulkheads inside?

epiphany

12-03-2006, 10:55 AM

Thanks, Ebb.

I'll be able to have, at any point in time, "guest", but not "guests". ;) It is a huge improvement in the 'sociability' of the cabin, I saw that last night with 2 different people at 2 different times. It's also made a huge difference in what it's like to be below when solo, being able to see all around outside while seated.

Have already considered adding some type of foot support which will be easily reachable while seated more-or-less athwartships in the dinette seat. It'll help not just when heeling, but also with shifting the position of your 'bum' every so often. ;)

This dinette is high enough that there really is only room for one set of shoulders per seat. Eye-level is right at the top of the deadlight frame when seated. I need the height to use the counter space for sleeping feet, but with seats mounted a bit lower, and seats just a few inches wider (athwartships), the dinette would have room for 4 good friends. :)

When I talked to Jim of "Atom" a couple weeks ago, he brought up the fact that many folks talk about mildew in closed lockers, but that he didn't see anywhere near enough for it to be considered a problem. He agreed with me that on a small boat, you go into your lockers often enough that they remain ventilated to the point that mildew worries are over-rated.

AFA waterproof lockers - dividing the wide-open interior of a boat up into many smaller spaces that can be sealed well enough, even if not *totally* waterproof, to slow a leak to a trickle would make a big difference in the case of flooding. Though I am of course shooting for 'waterproof', I'll be content with something that will be at least 'very slow leaking' until I can effect a repair... :D

I don't think that the bulkheads line up on the actual waterline anywhere, as factory-built. :) Even if we put them at or above the waterline, they'll be underwater mostly when heeled while sailing, right? I'm trying instead to put in all of my flotation below the line at which the transverse stringer runs along the hull at the shelves. That's as far as I am willing to sink. ;)

ebb

12-03-2006, 12:05 PM

I remember that and keep it in mind. If lockers are kept clean and dry. they probably will stay that way.

Naw, about 6 for supper?.. I meant a one seat dinette or a two seat - both single! Possible quests sit maybe on the ladder and in 338 in the open V-berth cove. That's four, everybody more is in the cockpit under the bimini!

The dinette in 338 will have forward facing navigation as another use. And as I visualize it at the moment, about half of the table surface will hinge UP to be hooked on the cabin side for a double berth option. Super quick 'conversion' if the bracing can be worked out. As we've seen in other Ariels, the only true double berth would extend virtually side to side. In port or at anchor alone, I'd like a wider berth - that will be easy if kept within the dinette dimension, no way a double. For a double, it shouldn't be too hard to have extensions and props across the aisle at the dinette seat height. Just as long as the cabin can be returned to normal operation without an engineering degree.:rolleyes:
What are you going to do?

I'm a freshaire fiend. I'll be sleeping in the cockpit if at all possible, but the best way to do that?.. that's another bouillabaisse.

epiphany

12-04-2006, 06:06 AM

Ebb -

I've figured out already that when I make it for good, the dinette will be widened just a smidge. A couple more inches of width to the seats will be perfect, and will substantially increase their comfort and usability. Not that what I have now is bad - it's working fine - but since I am building it in, I might as well make it that little bit better, right? :)

I tried an athwartships double for a bit since so many other Arielers here use it and like it. The way I set it up was so that port side was head-end (just an open, usual Ariel port berth), and it narrowed across the middle of the boat to strb'd, the designated foot-end (where there was in an alcove I'd created in the bins I have simulating cabinets there). Kind of like a v-berth shape, but across the boat. I did happen to have some company when she was set up like that, and it worked out well and comfortable.

So with this dinette setup, what I've thought so far is to echo that shape. Have the forward seat have a pull-out area (like the 'pull out shelf' you can see to strb'd in earlier pictures), to be able to widen the forward end of the berth. The table, in it's down position, could be shifted a few inches to strb'd to aid in the widening of the middle parts. This would be an in port/at anchor berth, when needed.

I also still have the option open to make the v-berth a double, up on top of the lockers there. I am undecided about this, because then I'd be toting around all that cushioning, while only rarely (if ever) using it. However, foam floats really well, so more foam might not be a bad thing. :)

I cut up the berth cushion yesterday eve, into sections appropos of the dinette sections. Sewed up some quicky covers for it at my shop, and it's made setup/takedown of the dinette much easier.

It's difficult to relate just how much more 'homey' and liveable the dinette has made the interior of the boat. Suffice to say that the amount of hominess is now much huge-er than before. :)

Like you, I too tend to spend more time sleeping in the cockpit when at anchor (and even when hove-to for a long nap, if the weather and seas aren't too bad). Makes it much easier to get a quick visual sweep. Puts a smile on my face to wake up gazing into the sky... :)

commanderpete

12-04-2006, 10:45 AM

Nice!

When you make the seat-backs, they would be more comfy if they are rounded and angled back a bit

epiphany

12-05-2006, 03:40 PM

Pete - Your advice is already well-taken. My temporary back support is neither, and not very comfortable at all. :)

epiphany

12-05-2006, 03:50 PM

Well, since Tony G won't post any pictures for us to drool over on this cold wintry night, I'll post some rather drab pics of my own...

Today was, at last, one I have thought of for a long, long time - DeTanking Day. :)

I followed the manual instructions per the cut-out outline, and, when the plywood was pulled off, all stood revealed...

epiphany

12-05-2006, 03:55 PM

Look at all that Monel glory, just as good today as it was nearly 40 years ago. The folks at Aquamaid produced good tanks for Ariels (part #14012 at the factory... ;) ):

epiphany

12-05-2006, 04:00 PM

In the corner of this pic is the liveaboard boat-refitters *favorite* tool. :D

epiphany

12-05-2006, 04:05 PM

...and last, a hole.

epiphany

12-05-2006, 08:07 PM

A few things to note -

After bulkhead of the wanter tank area was skewed somewhat (I haven't found anything built here that *isn't* skewed, though, so that's not unusual... :) ).

The tank was bone dry and appears in fine shape.

In the last pic, the 3 tank keys shown were all found *under* the tank. :D

The outline directions in the manual are good, tank came out with no problem. But it was not glassed in at all, just setting there.

I made the long cuts with a skilsaw, and finished the corners with a jigsaw. Plenty of room between the blades and the hull per the directions. Not a very long job at all.

It looks like if a tank were made integral to the hull in this same location, it would hold a lot more water.

More grey-colored inner hull is evident. With resin drips over it from when the plywood was tabbed in, so whatever this mystery color is, it was installed by Pearson, and has held up really well.

ebb

12-05-2006, 10:06 PM

Sounds like you can use a little help
from Sidle and Grissom. Dr Robbins
with his kit of anatomy saws would
be mighty helpful too. My vic, and
some others in the past, have that
mysterious blue which remains quite
un ex plain ed

epiphany

12-31-2006, 09:06 AM

The port-side dinette remains, is in use daily, and is quite the cats meow, and so has earned a keeper-spot in the final plan. It is sleep-able, but - a couple weeks experience have shown that it is rather nicer to have a horizontal pad which doesn't need setting up when the eyes get droopy.

This, with mulling over flotation equations, and fiddling with the interior, took me down other lanes of thought, so 'tis the v-berth where I have been sleeping, and will do so when not at sea.

I slept on 4" thick cushions on top of 11" high plastic storage bins placed in the v-berth area while I tried this theory out. Worked well, except the side-deck has too much proximity when one is lying on their, well, side. ;) A few days ago I quicky-built in a berth at an 8" height, and that has proven much more comfy, so the entire v-berth area will be elevated approx. 8" above the original level when finished. Under the cushions will be lockers with gasketed, sealable lids. Going with the center pole for mast support.

Starboard side hanging locker is coming out, and the whole counter and cabinetry along there will be shifted forward into that space. One of the buggers which has been plaguing me is what to do with the space in the extreme aft corners of the settee area. Hard to get to, tucked under the side deck and forward cockpit seat corner. Have been planning on removing the under-companionway stairs and sink, opening that area up and as noted before in this too-long thread, using a ladder for access to/from deck. Another bugger has been the porta-potti, which I plan to keep in lieu of a head and the associated plumbing. So.... I'm going to try for a small enclosed head/hanging wet locker to starboard of the companionway, potti on a slide out-shelf. If they can do it in a Flicka... :D

Here's a drawing to help visualize some of this.

epiphany

12-31-2006, 09:18 AM

Here's more-or-less where I'll be putting foam and sealed lockers in order to make this boat float in case the sea gets in. Blue lines represent 1" thick foam panels with luan plywood skins, skinned and tabbed in with glass to seal it all completely. Solid blue areas will be solid foam, glassed in. Anchor locker is getting split in two horizontally, the area where the rode will lie will be sealed off from the boats interior, and will drain directly overboard a la Geoff's "Uhuru" and Frank/Adam/Howards #50. :)

I'll be reducing the area where water can lie within the boat, nearly filling all bilge areas and sump with foam - my thinking is that if there is seawater aboard, I wanna know about it, and get it overboard. Also, less space for seawater means more space for floaty foam.

Same for under-bunk/locker areas; basically, wherever there is a V formed against the hull, I'll put a foam floor in to make the bottom level at least partly.

Also, I have been playing with 3" thick piece of test foam directly against the hull, seeing how much *usable* area I lose with that thickness. It ain't much. If I can go with 3" thick from the stringer down, all the way through the boat, that will give me 48cu/ft of the the estimated 55-60cu/ft needed to float the boat if she gets holed.

mbd

01-04-2007, 10:15 AM

Nice Kurt! Looking forward to seeing the in-progress pictures. A lot to be learned from your well thought-out and tried ideas. Looking good! Rock on, my man! :D

epiphany

01-07-2007, 07:06 AM

Thanks Mike! :D

Yesterday I tore out the hanging locker, moved my 'galley' forward using that area (also making the countertop much wider than it has been), and used the aft wall of the old hanging locker to establish the forward wall of the new mini-head/hanging locker/utility closet. It works! It's not very large, so I don't think it is a solution for everybody, but it will be nice to have a spot right at the companionway to hang wet foulies in, or, in the unlikely chance that I can trick a woman aboard ;), a place where she'll be able to have her privacy. Or me mine, I guess... :D

I think I'll call it "the WC", like the Brits do. ;)

ebb

01-08-2007, 06:30 AM

G'mornin Kurt,
and a happy renovative '07.
I have your cad drawings on the kitchen cork walls - for inspiration!
Give us one on the WC (water closet), OK?
Head and heads (Brits) refers to the dump placed in the fo'c'sl of a ship.
Since yer moving the head aft, perhaps a more shippy term would be WL, for water locker?
Still appropriate for a portpottie, correct?
I like the locker's primary use being for wet gear! It's a real problem in a minimalist cruiser.

mrgnstrn

01-08-2007, 06:43 AM

Here's more-or-less where I'll be putting foam and sealed lockers in order to make this boat float in case the sea gets in.

<snip><paste>

Also, I have been playing with 3" thick piece of test foam directly against the hull, seeing how much *usable* area I lose with that thickness. It ain't much. If I can go with 3" thick from the stringer down, all the way through the boat, that will give me 48cu/ft of the the estimated 55-60cu/ft needed to float the boat if she gets holed.

Kurt, let me offer a different opinion on your flotation idea.

1. It will be a huge PIA to put foam in those places, especially sheet foam.

2. It will be expensive to put in that pour in place stuff.

3. It is unlikely that an Ariel will get holed in such a way that you will want to stay on the boat. Think about this: What scenario would have to happen for an Ariel to get holed? What is the max speed of an Ariel under any condition...5.5 knots or so? How thick is the hull... 3/4" or more? If your Ariel is taking enough of a bashing to get holed, you are likely not going to want to stay there for it. The only candidates in my mind are a lee-shore of jagged rocks, fast moving freighters in the middle of the ocean, and those 100-mph cigarrette boats with alcoholic-induced accidents/collisions. With jagged rocks, just go ashore. With a frieghter, it will tear the boat up in a million pieces, so the floatation will not be any use. With the drunks, take your chances, your are as more likely to be injured by the accident than to worry about your boat sinking.

3.a. If you already sealed off the anchor locker, that is going to be your most bang-for-your-buck. That is the most vulnerable part, the front. That is the part that runs into things like containers, other boats, bouys, etc.

4. Even if it does float after getting holed, why do you want to save the hull? All equipment will be emersed and likely trash: engine, electronics, personal effects, everything. Why do you want to save that stuff? And it's not as if the boat will float that high in the water, likely it will be like the containers we hear about, nearly nuetrally bouyant and floating with just inches exposed. It's not as if you can really use the boat in that condition.

5. A good 3-person life-raft is probably cheaper and less frustrating than any floatation-addition-project.

6. In a small boat, the space taken by the foam is going to be "expensive" in terms of usability. Better to install the air-bag-floatation things. They stay small until called upon.

7.Do many other long-distance ocean voyagers do this mod? I am thinking about the father-son duel that went around Cape Horn in the 80's in a 24-footer. They were from Connecticut if I recall, and built the boat themselves from a kit. Their book is really good and might give some ideas about what is needed for blue-water ocean passages.

---not raining on your parade, just giving you something to think about, and maybe save you some time so you can get to making passages sooner.---

ebb

01-08-2007, 07:23 AM

AH HAH! Heat's ON!
This is Kurt's page, so we'll let him respond to Keith's views, most of which I agree to, viz 338, another cruiser in the making.

But not Point 4. Feel very strongly that the boat is essentially a spaceship. If something happens to it in the Indian Ocean, say, and it fills with water and it doesn't sink, there are still more life saving resources if you stay with it than on a liferaft. A liferaft supposes RESCUE. That may not be the correct assumption.

Thinking about making an Ariel unsinkable is a good exercise. I personally would not give up an inch of volume to foam fill except for a 1/2" of ensolite on the whole upper part of the hull for insulation. I think svATOM (Baldwin) has the right idea in making lockers and stowage space 'water-resistant'. I would not use or trust any foaminplace urethane. (There is an out-gassing issue and it is NOT closed cell.)

Nothing can be said about being totally smashed to smithereens, we better have some sort of alternative aboard. But total disaster may cancel out any one of those: liferaft, dinghy, pfd.
How long would you live in an emersion suit anyway? Better to think about making the boat unsinkable and repairable.

Let's explore the ways....
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?

mbd

01-08-2007, 07:35 AM

RE: Kieth's #7 above: My Old Man and the Sea - good read.

epiphany

01-08-2007, 09:21 AM

This isn't "Heat", this is just Discussion! :D And I am glad for it, it helps me crystallize my thinking and in some cases gives me new food for thought. :)

------------------------------------Answers-------------------------

1. It will be a huge PIA to put foam in those places, especially sheet foam.

Not really! I already have access to the hull from basically everywhere, and am putting in the first layer today.

2. It will be expensive to put in that pour in place stuff.

If I use this stuff, it will only be in small areas between sheet foam edges. As it is open cell, if I use it it will only be in areas which will be glassed over so that no water can get in (and stay in).

3. It is unlikely that an Ariel will get holed in such a way that you will want to stay on the boat.
3.a. If you already sealed off the anchor locker, that is going to be your most bang-for-your-buck. That is the most vulnerable part, the front. That is the part that runs into things like containers, other boats, bouys, etc.

I realize that there isn't much out there which will actually 'punch a hole' in an Ariel hull. Maybe if you just happened to strike the corner of a floating shipping container at the right angle, that would do it. But how water gets in won't really matter too much, if it is getting in. :) That's what the +flotation is for: Prepare for the worst, hope for the best. Agreed about the anchor locker/stem, but in the frame of the just quoted philosophy, I am paying particular attention to any part of the hull which when moved through the water would be diverting it away from flowing straight back (or: any part of the hull viewable when you stand in front of the boat). Also I keep in mind that it is rare for an Ariel to sail unheeled, and so areas above the at-rest waterline are probably just as likely to take an impact as those below it.

4. Even if it does float after getting holed, why do you want to save the hull? (combined with)
5. A good 3-person life-raft is probably cheaper and less frustrating than any floatation-addition-project.

The idea is that the boat will be it's own liferaft, floating with *some* freeboard, even if only 8-10". If it can do that, then it can be fixed enough to be bailed out and used to gain the safety of land for further repair.
Electronics etc in a survival situation are not usually _needed_, so theoretically as long as I am alive and have the basics, and a way to get back to shore, I am much better off than if I were floating around in a rubber raft with a small bag of 'survival tools', hoping that someone finds me before too much time passes. I will have basic electronics (VHF, GPS, flashlights, etc) in handheld waterproof versions which can take exposure to water. I will not have an EPIRB, because I believe this: since I am the person who is taking the risk to go to sea, I don't want anyone to risk their life to try and save mine. I have no children, noone besides myself who is dependent upon me; rescuers likely do. So I assume the mantle of responsibility now, before ever leaving shore, to see that I am "self insured" when it comes to my own survival. Of course, YMMV, and that is up to you, just as this decision is up to me. :)
Most everything will be stowed in top-loaded watertight lockers inside the boat, with the exception of what I (prior to setting out) decide is necessary to repair a hole in the hull, a "fix it" kit. Should the worst happen, I would try to fix it, and then bail the boat out. I will have at least one HIGH capacity manual bilge pump onboard. After bailing, a large part of what was in those lockers will hopefully be fine. If not, then I will still have more stuff to "MacGyver" with. :)
I think that positive flotation is also probably *much* cheaper - materials will total less than US$500, and time would be spent refitting the boat anyway, even if I weren't going the +float route. That said, this isn't about saving money, it's about what I think is the best way for me to continue sailing as long as possible, even if I encounter the worst situation imaginable for a sailor. :)

6. In a small boat, the space taken by the foam is going to be "expensive" in terms of usability. Better to install the air-bag-floatation things. They stay small until called upon.

I am a minimalist when it comes to "things", and so require less storage space than if I were otherwise. (Except maybe for books, but they float, and can be dried out - lol). Also, I have learned from backpacking and kayaking - sports which have much in common with cruising and living aboard a small boat - that before setting out, you will wind up "needing" as much stuff as you have space for, yet once on the road, you find that much that was "needed" goes unused. Compared to my backpacks (1.15-3.76 cu/ft) or my kayak (5.78 cu/ft), the Ariel carries a ton of stuff. :) I actually revel in the "large" space for stuff I have on my Ariel! :D I am not 'normal' in this, and people are as a rule somewhat amazed that I feel this way, especially when they come aboard. But I have a place to sleep, sit, cook, and stand, and it's all out of the rain, with no setup needed - and that is almost luxurious to me. Sure, she'll be loaded down when I leave for long passages, but mostly with food and water.
As far as float bags - I did do some serious thinking about them, and checked out all the products I could find on the market to see what they offered, but eventually came to the conclusion that tanks and tubes and bags can all leak, can all fail at what they are intended to do. Foam cannot - it just sits there, holding air all the time. I like that simplicity, and in the context of what I am doing, it makes more sense.

7.Do many other long-distance ocean voyagers do this mod?

I am not aware of any statistics about that, though I would assume that most don't. Most probably rely on liferafts (or dinghies which can serve as one, but that is a much smaller number), as that way is, as you said, much easier, involving less thought and construction. My objections to depending on a liferaft are already stated here, my boat is too small to stow a liferaft-capable dinghy on deck (besides which, I want my decks clear), and I don't want to have to deal with keeping a dinghy-in-tow during a storm.
I do know these things: just a few days ago I was aboard a 52' aluminum sloop, hull/deck made in France, fitted out by the 4X-transAtlantic owner in Canada, and he'd made it to have positive flotation, so there may be more of them than is reported, too.
My friend Neal Peterson, 2x OSTAR and 2x BOC racer who has rounded all the Capes, knows and approves of what I am trying to do. He's been in situations where his boat was about to sink, or would have, had he not acted quickly and properly. He hand-pumped his boat 20 minutes of every hour around the clock 2/3 or so of the way across the Atlantic after being hit by a Russian freighter. He understands what I am trying to do, and it is stories like his among others which are part of the reason I am doing it this way.
There is a European company named "Etap" which builds well-regarded boats that have positive flotation from the factory. I am sure that it is much more expensive to construct a boat that way, a cost which would have to be passed on to the buyer, and I would bet that price alone is *the* significant factor in why fewer boats are made this way.

---not raining on your parade, just giving you something to think about, and maybe save you some time so you can get to making passages sooner.---

I don't think that at all! I appreciate your taking the time to discuss it with me. :)

epiphany

01-08-2007, 10:06 AM

Kurt, how you figure 60 cu ft? When you multiply 60 times 64 (wt cu ft water) the total is 3840# displaced.) Will that float the boat?

Ebb -

60-65 cu/ft is what I am going for in the amount of foam alone.

Jim Baldwin is an extremely thorough person, one who I admire for many reasons. If you read his "IN SEARCH OF THE UNSINKABLE BOAT" (http://atomvoyages.com/projects/UnsinkableBoat.htm) article, his figures come out to ~.89 cu/ft of foam per 100 lbs displacement to keep his boat floating with decks awash. Add 10% to that (for ease, and safety, and perhaps differences in the amounts of materials which make up an Ariel vs a Triton), and you have 1 cu/ft per 100 lbs displacement. Thus, my ballpark figure of 60-65 cu/ft for an Ariel loaded with 1,000-1,500 lbs of stores and gear. I will also test this*.

Like Jim (and I have discussed this with him on the phone), I will have watertight lockers which will provide the additional flotation needed to keep the decks from being awash, ideally to actually float them slightly above the surface. The lockers will also serve to keep water from flooding into the boats interior, since they will directly cover probably well over 75% of the area of the hull which can be holed. They will serve as small sealed crash bulkheads, water which gets past the hull and enters them will be able to go no farther, or, if it does, at a vastly reduced rate of flow.

The way I am building in the interior of the boat also makes it so that any water which does get inside will be confined to a small narrow space until it is 3' deep or so. This will keep it from sloshing side to side, making the boat roll-y. With an interior which makes any water very noticeable and confines it to a large degree, and a high capacity bilge pump to get it out, I should be able to deal with all but total, unstoppable calamity.

If that happens, well, it must just be "My Time To Go", and there isn't much I can do about *that*. :D

------------------

*Once I get it all built in, I will sink my boat.

:eek:

Yes, you read that right. Out in the Bay, on a calm summer day and over a shallow sandbar, with a *very* high capacity pump to do both the filling and the emptying, I am going to see with my own eyes if and how she rides when full of water. That will be a fun and interesting day. :D

I'll measure and double- and triple-check everything beforehand, but if it all seems right, then that's the last logical step. And of course I'll post *those* pictures. :D

PS - "I agree, "My Old Man and The Sea" was a great book. I read it the summer after my father died. Bummer, that, and it made the tale even more poignant.

epiphany

01-08-2007, 10:17 AM

A PPS:

What I am doing isn't all that hard, or crazy even, I don't think. :D Nor is it impulsive. What I mean is this: Look at the work that pretty much anyone doing a major refit puts into their boat. Since I knew I would be doing the work anyway, it just makes sense to add a little more in, if the benefits could be so great...

Living aboard for 1.75 years so far, while finding my own 'optimal design' for what and where, I have had much time to consider all of this as a supplement to actually trying out the varied and different ideas I have had for the interior arrangement.

It all kind of fits together. :)

ebb

01-09-2007, 07:46 AM

I may need enlightenment.

Believe the .89 figure is not right and could be inverted.

If I have a 6000# boat and I use the 58# reserve bouyancy per 100# I come up with 103 cu ft of foam needed to suspend the boat in water. I would need more than that to float it with the decks awash. And more than that even to have the boat floating high enough to try to repair it.

Maybe the .89 should be 1.11 as a minimum.

I, of course, agree with Baldwin on everything he says.
Open top bulkheads like the one for the head will not float the boat if water goes over them. If that incident where he was holed by a fishingboat had been below the waterline, we might be reading another story.:D

epiphany

01-09-2007, 02:07 PM

Hmm, OK, this is how I understand it:

Take something which weighs 1# out of the water. When you submerge it in water it weighs less, and just how much less is a function of its relative density.

This difference is its "reserve buoyancy".

I am going to do some number-rounding here for ease - since math makes my head hurt. :D

According to the Skene's chart on Baldwins site, 700#'s of lead (one cubic foot) weighs only 636#'s in the water - a ratio of .908 (or: 636 divided by 700). So the 2300# ballast in an Ariel would weigh 2,088#'s submerged, right?

An empty Ariel displaces 5120#'s of water, so that is it's weight. Subtract that 2300#'s of lead ballast, and that leaves 2,820#'s of miscellaneous other materials, the largest majority of which is fiberglass.

According to Skene's, a cubic foot of fiberglass weighs 96#'s, yet underwater the same cubic foot only weighs 32#'s - exactly 1/3, or .333. Fiberglass is denser than most everything on the boat, so for simplicity's sake lets just say that the whole rest of the boat weight is fiberglass. Underwater this mass of fiberglass would weigh 940#'s (2,820 x .333)

Add the 940 to the 2,088, and you have 3,028#'s, which would be the amount of flotation you would need to provide in order to suspend the boat in the water, just at/below the surface.

Right?

3028 divided by 58 (the flotation of a cubic foot of polyurethane foam, from Skene's) equals 52.206, the amount of cubic feet of foam needed to barely float an empty Ariel.

(~8 more cubic feet of foam (to make it an even 60 cu/ft) would provide for an additional 464#'s of flotation - which is more than 464#'s of stuff, taking into account that that stuff would weigh less in the water...)

Note how close this is to the "1 cu/ft per 100#'s of displacement" guesstimate - neato. :)

So - Am I figuring this right, even though loosely?

If I am, I will be amazed. :D

mbd

01-09-2007, 02:11 PM

You'll know for sure when you "test sink" your boat! ;)

epiphany

01-10-2007, 04:17 AM

You'll know for sure when you "test sink" your boat! ;)

LOL, ain't that the truth. :D

I put some foam into the boat last night, and found (as usual) that it'll be a learning process. ;) My first attempt was using 1 large piece of foam - approx 18" x 6'4" - up against the hull, in the area under the stringer, down to the level of the original vberth. This taught me that it will be easier to do this with smaller panels - say 2' max dimension. :D It also taught me to cut the foam outside of the boat, in the daytime - little tiny pieces of foam get *everywhere* when cutting, even with a razor knife. For this "exploratory foaming", I am using 'Cellofoam' brand panels - 3/4" thick EPS, it has a mylar radiant heat barrier on one side, and is only US$10 for a 4'x8' sheet. I'm using 4 sheets to make a first run at the process. This foam will probably all be removed in favor of pink/blue foam for the end product.

I also made a small test panel of my "foamboard plywood" concept (pink foam sheathed with wood) to see how strong that combo is likely to be, and have to say I am *very* pleasantly surprised. I recommend that anybody adding structure into their boat consider this as a light, strong alternative to conventional plywood. I sandwiched the foam using Luaun door skin material - it comes in 1/8"x3'x7' - and it is very light and very stiff. The door skin material can be cut with a razor knife, too, which really cuts down on dust and noise. I think another advantage is that I will be able to use it like and instead of cardboard for laying out the size and shape of the bulkheads inside. Cut the Luaun to the right size, and I have 1 skin which is also the pattern for the other skin as well as the foam core...

I looked at all the adhesives at Lowes and Home Despot trying to find one compatible with the foam. For right now, I don't want a permanent solution, so I eventually went with "Duro All-Purpose Spray Adhesive" which claimed that it would work with foam board. It does, but only if you spray it very lightly and quickly - otherwise some ingredient in the stuff literally eats the foam up. When I put the foam in for good, I am thinking that I will just use 4200, spread with a squeegee/trowel...

ebb

01-10-2007, 06:15 AM

Kurt,
Thanks for the conversation and your math.
I will probably find out what the specific gravity of fudge is
and apply it to a decent flotation fudge factor for 338.

It's patently obvious that this respondant enjoys detailed information and experiences on our classic plastic sailboat refurbishing. So, I hope you continue to regale us with your discoveries.
I hope also that this panel invention of yours works out. You may indeed have something for us whole boat remodelers.

Weldwood (UPC# 25330, pint) has a 'professional grade' NO SOLVENT, LOW ODOR neoprene contact cement. It's nonflammable, low odor. waterborne. Has a half hour + dry time and a 2 1/2 to 3 hr assembly/open time! "Resistant to the effects of water" and the "bonds become stronger and more resistant as they age." It can be applied with a short nap roller (or spray). Work has to be above 65degrees. No clamping is needed but pressure is by using a J-roller. Normal. After bonding you can cut the panel. I'm taking this off a Tech Bulletin. You might find more info at www.dap.com

Ofcourse, if you make up these panels in a ventilated place you can use regular cement. But the solvents, as you point out, may melt the styrene.

I'm getting me some of that goo, and may follow you on your panel invention. Attachments to the panel will require glueing, with some thru fastening possible with backing plates/cleats. But you will be building in reserve bouyancy!

Assuming you'll be testing the panels, I'll be very interested on what permanent glue you come up with. 4200 sounds expensive, and difficult, I imagine, using it to make up whole panels. Onward!;)
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
Just been reading Practical Sailors old review of caulking and sealants. Complaints about 5200 include that it's too runny and takes too long to skin over. Sounds good to me! Except for the $$$$$ - and the possibility that you unwittingly can buy tubes too long on the shelves and the product has become too stiff!
[Will try an experiment with 1/2" flexible ensolite that is intended to line the inside of the hull above the waterline on 338 - using this Weldwood stuff.
The Tech Bulletin has a help number that may be useful followup. Most of the uses for contact cement are for laminates, veneers and plywood over core panels - and also paper and cloth and cloth-backed vinyl.]

epiphany

01-10-2007, 06:45 AM

Kurt,
Thanks for the conversation and your math.
I will probably find out what the specific gravity of fudge is
and apply it to a decent flotation fudge factor for 338.

Ay, and for beer and/or rum, too! :D

Does the math seem right?

Thx for the heads up on the DAP product, it sounds just right.

Hadn't thought of it, but attachments to the foamply would follow the same process as attachments to the deck. Without the complication of potential leaking when it rains... ;)

Howard

01-11-2007, 06:24 AM

Kurt,
Go out and get a cheap "hot" knife if you are going to cut alot of foam. No pieces little whatsoever and the heat seals the foam a little. I use alot of foam in making GFRC monuments. Also, if you are going to make some high cubic sizes you can leave a void inside your block if you plan on sealing the luan with glass.
The air pocket would be more buouyant than the foam.

ebb

01-11-2007, 08:59 AM

Howard...Well now, That's interesting....GFRC!
What sort of material is that???

With oil prices never coming down and advances made in fiber and concrete technology I would guess many one-off builders are thinking ferro-cement again!

Remember the glory days of concrete boat building in this area. And still have mental snapshots of one boat being finished over in Alameda at Svendsen's yard where literally everything, the whole super-structure, was being done in 'crete. It was a sculptural masterpiece, with a beautiful fair hull and fine details.

Nice Brit ferro sailboats as small as 24' were professionally being built in the '50's. Some of them are still around. There is a French concrete dinghy from the turn of the century that's still around. And crete has successfully been used to sheath tired wooden boats. www.ferroboats.com

The boats I saw had huge iron rebar and chicken wire or hardware cloth armatures that took forever to set up and tie and required a crew of professional plasterers to finesse the hull. I wonder if techniques and concrete and armature material has progressed to where the problems of 30 years ago have been solved. Ofcourse the main problem with the boats of the '70's was with the lack of knowledge of the armatures building them.

Anyway, my thought is that an Ariel hull and top could now be done with glass or other fiber reinforced waterproof complex concrete with epoxy coated rebar and plastic mesh. Producing a monoque hull equal to fiberglass, equal in displacement, no 'electrolysis' problems, and a lot cheaper.
GFRC and other modern materials might make it possible to think outside the ferroconcrete box to develop new, quicker, better ways of construction.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
Thinking of Kurt's interest in poly foams maybe vermiculite could be introduced into the concrete GFRC shell mix.:cool:

mrgnstrn

01-11-2007, 10:39 AM

RE: Kieth's #7 above: My Old Man and the Sea - good read.

Yes, that was it. Thanks for keeping me honest.

mrgnstrn

01-11-2007, 10:57 AM

Ay, and for beer and/or rum, too! :D

Nope, they float by them selves!

In fact, they will likely float away......

And, since it is rare to have a full bottle of liquor on any sailboat (based on my extensive crewing on other people's boats), you could statistically figure out how empty your collection of hooch is likley to be, and count on the air in the bottles as flotation, in addition to your foam.

And I just thought of this, if you are basically lining the inside of the whole hull with foam, when you are done, you should glass it all in. This way you will not only have flotation, but a double hull (ala freighters and russian submarines....)

Howard

01-11-2007, 04:01 PM

epiphany

01-12-2007, 05:49 AM

Wow, neat replies, good stuff. I am headed out of town for a few days, if I can reply while gone I will, if not, then when I return...

Did some work on the "WC" the other day, cut the berth up/out some to make a level-surfaced small foot platform, and lowered the part that the porta potti sits on. It's working well. I'll get some pics when I get it looking a little better. :)

commanderpete

01-12-2007, 06:51 AM

Interesting explanation why there are problems with 2 part "pour foam"

see reply #6

http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13679

ebb

01-12-2007, 07:57 AM

Foam at the mouth.*
Yeah, it's been known for decades that 2-part urethane foam is lethal stuff. I have known and known about guys who've died using and installing urethane foam. By direct inhalation and by cancer. It's lethal when you are pouring it, when it off-gases after it cures, and when it catches fire. It's not true closed cell, it's unstable and can disintegrate if liquids get in to the space where it lurks. And the liquids WILL get in. Even if it supposedly is completely isolated from the accomodation you wouldn't trust it. It should never be installed in a closed living space. Like a boat.

As pointed out by the guys on the above forum, the DIY pour-in-place market is miniscule. Maybe that's why we never have had an alternative. Not enough dead bodies. You never trust who it is that's making this stuff. Or their MSDS. Though to be fair to them: if they told you how evil their product was, you probably wouldn't buy it, and profit is really what it's all about.

Those unsinkable ETAP boats bother me on this score.:eek:

Probably should research the synthetic foam rubbers and readymade poly foams we are intending to use for their 'blowing agents'.
CFC's are still screwing up the planet. Dow and Dupont just dance around creating new ones not covered by legislation. Ozone and Hypoallergenic and Planet are words too pussy for these guys. Some foams are beginning to be made using inert gases like CO2.
Sweet Styrene is a carcinogen and toxin.
Hot wiring styrofoam can produce toxic fumes. So can sanding. And the sanding dust is also hazardous. Burning this highly inflamable stuff creates bad fumes too. The jury will always be out on these products: It's worth while considering the possible migration of nasty chemicals out of these foams.

Seems to me there should be a foam-in-place EPOXY by now.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________________
*Kurt, sorry for the rant in your space here! In the last year 3 people I've known have died from cancer. At this moment three more connected with the estate here are fighting cancer also: one shrinking visibly is being fitted today with a chemo bag to wear. Another is battling leukemia, another prostate.

mrgnstrn

02-15-2007, 09:35 AM

Kurt

Your flotation project got me thinking...

As I recall, you are planning on putting in just enough extra flotation to basically float the boat at it's gunwales. Basically, this is mostly a submerged body. So you may want to consider a few things:

VCG, VCB: Vertical center of bouyancy and V.C. of gavity. You will want to make sure that the VCB is above the VCG, otherwise your boat will be more stable upside down than right side up. (note, this is necessary only because you are now a submerged body, like a submarine. Once you are not a submerged body, you can rely on form stability to help keep you upright)

LCG, LCB: Longitudinal center of bouyancy and L.C. of gavity. This one would be a bigger concern to me. If these two don't line up on top of each other, your boat will float with the bow skyward and stern 26' below the surface. (or vice versa). How are you going to recover from that, even after you fix the hole? It's not like you can bail out the stern....it's totally submerged.

Lateral CG and CB may also be a concern, but if you put approximately equal flotation on port as starboard, you might be able to deem yourself OK.

Also, you might want to think through the repair and recovery process. OK, you have hit a submerged container, put a 10" gash in the leading edge of the keel, quickly taken on enough water to sink the boat, but the flotation has kept the boat from becoming a coral reef project.
Now what?
How do I repair the problem? Do I need to careen the boat way over to reach the hole to repair/patch it? Can I do it all underwater? After I have repaired the hull, how do I get the water out? Are all the gunwales above the water, can I bail, can I shut the cockpit scuppers to keep from filling back up the cockpit? is water draining into the cabin, cockpit lockers from the cockpit? if the lockers are sealed, how do I drain them?

What this led me to believe is that you need to have some temporary flotation bags to enhance the flotation for recovery.

Don't get me wrong, your passive flotation solution is very elegant. Always there, don't have to worry about it not working, no moving parts to fail at the wrong time. And these inflatable bags may be unsuitable for permantent installation and use in an emergency.

But after things have calmed down, you may need to pull these bags out to lift up the bow to fix the hole, or stern to fix a rudder problem, or to lift the gunwales well clear of the waterline for bailing. And if you are crafty, you could make them blow up with those handy sized CO2 cartridges they use on lifevests. Or the similar sized cartridges they use for air-guns. And you can store a lot of them for a long time, until needed. That way if you need to inflate and deflate it a couple of times for all the necessary recovery operations, you can.

food for thought.

________________

oh, and just thought about this.....Don't you also own "Nemisis" up on Maryland? Why not trial sink that boat instead of you beloved Katie Marie......?
Then give the hull to Tim Lackey and have him do something amazing out of it....Like make it fly or something!
(clarification, Lackey is a true genius and artist with a boat hull. Nothing else implied herein)
________________

epiphany

02-16-2007, 08:07 PM

Thanks for the input Keith - I can tell you have put plenty of thought into it. I hope that I can address your thoughts succinctly here. Any failure to do so can be attributed to the fact that I am 3 beers into a Friday night at this point. :D

I am shooting for a better than "decks awash" scenario. Ideally, she'll float at or above the same level as the cabin-side shelves/the stringer against the hull. All, or at least 95%+, of my flotation - discounting sealed cockpit lockers and lazarette - will be below this level. (Cockpit/lazzy will be slightly above that, it's upper few inches.) My thinking there is that as soon as the flotation goes under, it's pushing *up*. Hopefully, the push up will counteract the 'pull down' enough to stop the boat with the decks *above* being awash. I am seeking to put enough foam in to counter sinking, if barely; any extra flotation over and beyond that from sealed lockers will supplant that bare minimum, ideally keeping the deck at least 10" above the water surface.

BUT... (there's always one of those, right? :) ) -

Sinking that deep is an absolute worst case survival situation, pure and simple, something that should only happen if 'disaster-with-a-capital-D' strikes, and is wearing a t-shirt with my name on it in bold letters. At that point, I'll be glad to just not be swimming to the nearest continent or other landmass. :)

if it comes to that, I will have to wait until conditions calm enough to deal with pumping out a very flooded boat, but I *will* be able to wait _and_ have all my stores available for survival and repair, both of which seem important.

Would that be fun? Not at all, no way, no how. But to my mind it beats worrying about, say, the liferaft tubes popping for {pick a reason}.

Basically the entire front half of the boat (everywhere ahead of the midships taper), anywhere a penetration can be affected, will be inside of one locker or another. The ideal there is to contain any flooding to just one or two lockers, the same as crash bulkheads do on a ship. This would mean that although the hull was breached, it won't flood - just those lockers will. Also, at the same time, I have *significantly* reduced the amount of interior space which could be flooded if that Disaster were to happen. Less water inside means less water available to be sinking the boat, and also less water to be sloshing around and upsetting the CG/CB balance.

As far as CG/CB - not being a N.A., and not owning one ;), I _am_ having to kind of eyeball-engineer some of this. You are correct that I am seeking to balance the amount of flotation side-to-side. I am also doing the same fore-and-aft, with the cockpit lockers and lazzy all being independent from each other and seal-able, just like the forward lockers. Under the cockpit sole will also be another area sealed from air/water, providing flotation.

So my strategery :) is first and most importantly prevention of the possibility of flooding, and second, staying afloat however long it takes to survive and repair if flooding does happen.

Repair strategy is something which will be under active consideration up until I leave shore. I do plan to carry a bit-n-brace, lots of appropriately long fasteners, and plenty of underwater-setting epoxy. There will be some pieces of wood aboard which will serve a secondary purpose as large-hole-patchers if need be.

It would be *really nice* to have a bag or two to provide extra lift where/when needed. I will take that idea into serious consideration. If the boat is capable of floating on its own, then the bags could be pumped up manually, when needed. A bag that could be used that way wouldn't need a bottle reservoir, valves, etc etc...

I sold "Nemesis" a long time ago, and sadly, am unsure of her fate. I do hope she is being fixed up, or has been already, and is under sail during the warm months up on the Chessy. Even if that means she doesn't get to feel the tender ministrations of the Plastic Classic Wizard, aka Mr. Lackey. :D

Thanks again, I really appreciate the discussion. As always, feel free to poke holes in my thinking - I'd much rather find out I was wrong or off in my thinking before I find out 'out there'. :)

epiphany

02-18-2007, 09:38 AM

I've been wanting to try stripping the old original latex paint from the hull and overhead prior to grinding - seeking less noise, less mess, maybe even less effort. Bought a product called "Citristrip" from WalMart, $10.77 for a quart of orange colored paste. It is "Safe for indoor use, no harsh fumes, strips multiple layers", is non-caustic (tho' they do recommend using gloves with it), and is supposedly biodegradable. Sounds safe for a liveaboard, right?

Well, it works - and good. Put a layer on a test area, waited 30-40 minutes, and the paint came off very easily. Further testing has shown that scraping, then using a plastic scrubby brush, finishing with a water-wetted rag removes the old paint pretty darn easily. It's not *all* gone, but now sanding to a good substrate should take a lot less time, with the other benefits of less grinding.

Still working on application. I tried a foam brush, but that melted - not immediately, but fairly quick, surprisingly for what would otherwise seem to be a benign substance. :) I think a cheap china bristle brush would work well, maybe even a homemade thing plastic squeegy, for quickly covering large areas. 1/8" thickness of wet paste seems to produce the best results. If it gets too dry before scraping, just put a little more paste on and wait a few minutes, it'll soften right back up.

I think as soon as it gets back up into the 60's on a regular basis, I am going to move me, dogs, and most stuff off of the boat for a week or two, during which time I will get down and dirty laying in the new arrangement. I am doing up some computer drawings of what I have been thinking, sort of a visual plan and perspective view. I'll post those when I get them done.

Still trying to figure out what is the best adhesive for bonding the foam to the hull. Based on how well the paint has gripped the glass for 40 years, I may well use a latex adhesive, if I can find one which will grab the foam as well. I could use 42/5200, but am hoping to find something which won't grip *quite* that much. Ideal would be something which expanded just a teensy bit, to fill in gaps where condensation could form. The search continues... :)

I can't wait to get her sailing again... :D

epiphany

02-19-2007, 11:37 AM

A look at what the WC will be like. Though the opening into it looks tiny, it is 14-16" wide. I'm not sure how I am going to handle a door. Note the 'flare' in the wall at the bottom of the companionway - it'll be 5" wide or so, allows for more shoulder room inside the WC space when seated, and gives an easy-to-reach high step for when a hatchboard is in place in the companionway...

ebb

02-19-2007, 12:13 PM

Fantastic Kurt, Brave man!
Getting the head out of the v-berth is downright heroic!
Perfect for the wet gear, too. But, do you NEED a door? How bout just a curtain or an accordian door that folds and hangs from a bar.

What happens if you turn the doorway into the cabin a bit - a little or a lot??? Know what I mean? You might set the galley sink an inch or two further outboard and use vertical space gained to turn the doorway off the 90 degrees? Trying to be helpful, ya know.:D

mbd

02-19-2007, 05:43 PM

Companionway steps on the wall of the head? Nice outside the box thinking. So, no more removable steps? Which way is the head going to be oriented? Excepting the steps on the WC wall, maybe a curtain could be used there as well? Might not be a bad thing to be able to vent out the companionway... :D

While you're redoing things, maybe you could move the companionway entry off center to make more room for the head? That's semi tongue-in-cheek, but it would make more room... I love following the progress of you guys who actually get things done on your boats.

epiphany

02-19-2007, 08:13 PM

Ebb - you hit upon the very reason I have the counter edge set back in the drawing. :) The only thing about doing that (rotating the opening a bit from 90*), is that *if* the WC has a hard door, you'll lose knee room. Not much, but every bit will count. ;) Still working on the door thing, but had thought of an accordion fold as the only realistic solution for a hard door. It worries me that it might be problematic eventually, though. That's where a curtain would work better. So... Still thinkin'. :D

Mike - Again, bingo. It would be nice to be able to have the area up top on that side wall open - which lends itself to a curtain, and a vertical metal tube from the top of the wall to the overhead which would make a dandy handhold. I probably will still do the retractable ladder under the bridgedeck - the steps below the shelf-like step are totally optional, and probably only ever put on if I found after some use that they would be nice to have.

No way would I move the companionway - that would be *way* too much work! :) It is that way in the original drawings, did you ever notice that? The B27 c'way is like that.

epiphany

02-20-2007, 06:46 AM

Quick edit to take out the upper wall portions...

mbd

02-20-2007, 08:43 AM

Dangit Kurt! Now you've got me daydreaming instead of working again! I was going to comment on "cutting" your large deadlight in half with a bulkhead and the potential maintenance issues should you ever have to remove said deadlight - then you posted the second drawing. So I won't point that out, although I guess I just did. :)

So, in thinking of your aft head location, I got to thinking of a couple of other layouts with the same, like the Flicka and the closely related Allegra 24 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1516). (I just added a pic of its enclosed head) Same beam, BTW. Both have nice and open v-berths and an enclosed head.

So I say, how about bring that bulkhead forward to between the deadlights? It takes up more space, but any "extra" could certainly be used for wet storage, like up under the cockpit. The extra bit of room just may make the head a little more welcoming and a place you could sit and read a good book, or, heaven forbid, get rid of some bad fish... Just a thought.

ebb

02-20-2007, 09:20 AM

Kurt,
Now THAT'S a great idea - opening up the top. Keeps spaciousness, disapates odors. Could soft screen the top, along with the doorway - and it solves the bulkhead over the deadlite issue. If it is an issue: I've seen this work in pics of other boats if the bulkhead is NOT made an issue. If it is designed so that the critical eye sees the solution as, say, providing light to an 'enclosed' space and also providing an open feeling to the accomadation, then there is nothing 'wrong' with it. If the bulkhead was structural, it couldn't work. But as 'furniture', if it can be called that, it's fine!

Another thought: If you step the foreandaft companionway bulkhead (instead of adding cleats and steps to a sheer surface) you could created more room inside the head. Especially knee-room! What I mean is that you could make one side of the comp. ladder with a wall that is stepped out with ledges that are actually space makers inside the head. Maybe just one step could be done that way with the wall. NO?

epiphany

02-23-2007, 04:22 AM

Lovin' the input, fellas - you're making me think. :)

Mike - Moving the forward wall up to the spot 'tween deadlights would give more space, but at the same time it'd take away from galley counter/drawer space (and sealed locker/potential floaty space, too). Dang those compromises! :D For someone my size or smaller, there is enough knee-room in that dimension. I'll measure it and post the #'s eventually. Due to our wineglass-shaped hulls, what it lacks is flat floor space, one low enough to provide some headroom when standing. Still fiddling with this to optimize what space I do have... :)

AFA this interfering with deadlight mounting/maintenance: I'm planning on doing something like I think Tony is doing with his deadlights, re-making them so that Lexan mounts into an external recess built into the cabin trunk, fastened from the outside. (Don't expect my work to look nearly as good as Tony's does when it comes to that stage, though. :o) So far my rough plan is to mount structure on the inside that will enable me to enlarge to deadlight opening to the same outline shape as the current, original frames. By doing that, when viewed from outside the Lexan will have the same overall proportions as the original deadlights w/frames. In this, I will be preserving the original look, while making for a much more substantial and seaworthy mount. Do dat make sense? :)

Ebb - the 'sideways steps' idea is good, but it my case would encroach on the access to the forward part of the under-cockpit-sole area, which I do plan to have easily accessible for stowage (tho' I am not sure exactly how, just yet...). Still, you may have given me the genesis of an idea to increase that flat floor space, by rotating the direction of the porta potti to athwartships instead of fore-and-aft. Hmm... :D

mbd

02-23-2007, 05:49 AM

Is it too 'unmanly' to force sitting down when using the head? You could set it up like your dinette, so there's a step up to the business part of the head - throne-like, you might say. Then you could see out the dead light while taking care of business if you were so inclined. You might be able to recoup some of that storage under the head. On second thought, maybe you don't want anything under the head except a holding tank. :D

That would leave the after area accessible for storage or a hanging locker as well as the area under the deadlight against the hull...

ebb

02-23-2007, 06:12 AM

Fore-n-aft or a-thwart-ship is an endless controversy.
Which ever way in an Ariel - you'll have to brace yourself.

Whether you are an inboard or an outboard, hard dinghy
or soft dinghy, aft facing or side facing kind of skipper -
in the Ariel it'll be a real compromise. I believe I can brace
myself better with my arms rather than the back of my head
and my knees. But each to his own.

As has been said about the portopotti: "Truth lies in a well and we
may justly say that logic does supply us with steps,
whereby we may go down to reach the water." Dr. I. Watts

And remember it was Boris Pasternak who observed,
"What is laid down, ordered, factual is never enough to embrace
the whole truth: life always spills over the rim of every cup.":D

Whatever you do, remember to fillet your corners.

epiphany

02-25-2007, 05:43 AM

Mike - I have seen it recommended that to keep head odors down, *everyone* should sit down when using the head aboard a boat, whatever they are doing. Makes sense, because it ensures that all 'materials' wind up where they are supposed to be, with no inadvertent 'spillage'. :)

I originally had the PP sitting a bit higher, but found that unwieldy - it's too hard to pull pants down/up (or do, erm, anything else...) when you are scrunched over, half-crouched. :D Headroom in the head is a necessary component.

I think I am establishing the guidelines for "recommended minimum head dimensions". :)

As you pointed out, there is good storage space both behind the PP, as well as under the sidedecks. I think that this will be a most convenient place for storage of tools and maintenance/cleaning supplies - a good utility room. :)

Ebb - Aye, everything is indeed a compromise. :) It'll be snug in my WC, so easy bracing won't be a problem. It might even serve as a good resting spot, for that exact reason. :D

Yesterday:

I pulled out my v-bunk and remade it approx. 3" lower. The top of the boards (not including the cushion) are 7" above the original vberth height. Before, I had it up at 10", but that was too high. To climb in was a big step up from the sole (I actually put a step on the bulkhead for that reason), and then when in the bunk, there was not enough height for anything other than a scrunched-over turnaround to get into a lying-down position. Dropping the height 3" made a big difference, both in access and comfort. It's funny what a difference a few inches make, here and there... :)

I mounted two vertical posts to 'frame' in the doorway of the WC, like in the 2nd pic above - a full-size trial version of that setup. Works great, and I tested another idea I'd had, too: Instead of curtains for the small areas at the top of the walls, have pieces of wood there, hinged to fold up/down, one on each wall. Up for privacy when the head is in use, down they'd lie flat, to act as counter space and keep the 'openness' of the cabin. The sizes needed for them to lay flat when down (and not strike against the cabin trunk side) would leave a small 3"-ish gap at the top when up, for ventilation. Don't know if I will wind up using this or not, but it is a possibility...

I'll also be dropping my dinette seat height 4-6". At the present height (same as the original counter height), my shoulder rests against the cabin trunk side, just below the deadlight. Dropping the seat a few inches will make for more shoulder room, more comfort, and I'll still be able to see out the deadlight when seated. Still planning to have it convertible for bunk space, too.

Last, after months of deliberation, :) I've decided to go with a 2-pole mast support. The poles will sit at the same approximate location as the original oak supports, will be mechanically joined to each other at the top, and will sit in a recess designed into the cross-cabin support beam. I will most likely be using steel as the material, which I don't see as optimal because it can corrode, but I think that if I take the proper steps before mounting it, it will not be an insurmountable problem - I plan to treat them the same way a steel hull is treated. I think that that will be sufficient for the purpose, with enough of an 'overkill' factor to please that part of me which enjoys the thought of something being at least a bit better than it needs to be. :)

epiphany

03-04-2007, 08:10 PM

Got all that done, and then got sick. Tonsillitis and then a lil bout o quinsy - blech. Finally felt well enough this weekend to get back on my feet and give the boat a early spring cleaning. Ready for the warmth to get here, ready to commence the tear down...

ebb

03-05-2007, 07:34 AM

Kurt, Hope yer better!
Interim photos would be most instructive.

epiphany

03-05-2007, 08:13 AM

I'll take lots o' shots, Ebb, that's for sure. Just received confirmation this AM of dates on a commissioning job w/extras (brand new Catalina 320 headed for Bermuda), that'll start March 16 +/-. It'll involve a solid week of boatwork at the yard, so I'll plan on starting the destruction/reconstruction on Katie to begin just after that, while I am still in the mode, and without having to give all my tools a complete cleansing inbetween... :D

epiphany

04-22-2007, 06:40 AM

Updates and such: Due to extras on the commissioning job, weather, more other boat work, and whatall, I haven't started the serious deconstruction yet. There's a week of canvaswork ahead, then helping a friend deliver his Alberg 30, and after that the cutting starts.

Since I last posted, Frank Durant of "Revival" fame ;) stopped by on his way back to Canada from the Bahamas, and we attempted - almost successfully - to drink all of the rum in this little town that night. Phew! (Note for future reference and edification: It sure is hard to keep up with a Professional, as Canadians seem to be in my experience. The delivery crew for the Catalina were Canadian as well, and they tricked me into a night of revelry that had me feeling the same the day after as when Frank was here. :D) Anyway, Frank got to see the interior of "Frankenboat", as I refer to Katie in her current state, and he said that the size of my WC is nearly identical to that of the head in a Flicka. Kewl! :)

I'll be rewiring the boat, and am planning on building in the infrastructure for that as I de/reconstruct. Since I have also wanted to strengthen the hull/deck join, I am going to do similar to what Robert Lemasters did with his toerail rebuild - use PVC pipe to fill in the corner void there, and the pipe will also serve as nice high-and-dry conduit for the new wiring. Have purchased a new stereo, along with a VHF and command mic for the cockpit, and inherited a GPS chartplotter from a bro-in-law, so I have the electronics items ready to hook up once all that is done, and also to use for planning where to locate said.

Regarding mast support - one day, I looked at Commander interiors, and subsequently slapped myself on the forehead. Check out their open interiors, and look how Carl designed in mast support. I'll be doing what the Master did...

Last, and this sort of thing rarely if ever happens to me: Yesterday, a guy gave me a windvane. :eek: !!!!!!!! :D Better yet, it is currently mounted on a Triton, so I have hopes that the angle of the reverse transoms are similar enough that I can just transfer it over to Katie without having to go through mounting plate fabrication or any of that. Kewlest of all! :D :D :D I don't know what kind it is, it is a servo-pendulum style with lines that lead to the tiller, and is all stainless. The servo blade is not a foiled shape, and is connected to the vane by 3 (IIRC) little pushrods that in turn connect to a slim rod inside of a 2-3" diameter downtube from the vane. Supposedly this Triton is well-traveled, so I am in hopes that the vane works well.

Hope this finds everyone well, and almost ready for sailing season! :)

frank durant

04-22-2007, 10:47 AM

Capt K's interior will be awesome...nice open feeling. The little head will be about the size of a Flicka's....cramped but serviceable. Took me until the last few weeks of the cruise to both go in AND come out with my shorts up::confused: ...but heh..a little privacy on any small craft is great. As to the capt's comments..."we attempted - almost successfully - to drink all of the rum in this little town that night. Phew! (Note for future reference and edification: It sure is hard to keep up with a Professional, as Canadians seem to be in my experience. The delivery crew for the Catalina were Canadian as well, and they tricked me into a night of revelry that had me feeling the same the day after as when Frank was here. ) ....what can I say. The Capt seemed fairly well practiced and for being about 40lbs lighter than I....he could sure 'hold his own' ;) His boat is in a really great marina with an awesome view...only steps to town....and a nice little bar.

epiphany

10-30-2007, 12:26 PM

Like Ebb and Tony, I am keeping the progress pics to myself :D until good progress is shown, but here is an idea of what I've been building in. Sorry it is so wide.

Besides what you see obviously labeled, there will be water bladders below the stove and reefer (an Engel), a third aft under the cockpit (going for a total of about 60 gallons), and 2 sealed AGM 12V batteries immediately abaft the main bulkhead, as low as possible while still allowing for possible hull puncture protection.

On that note, I am putting in as much foam as possible, but not as I envisioned earlier via 'coating' the whole interior of the hull w/4" of foam (which IMO could still be done, I just don't think I am going to need it). I'll be relying instead on a multitude of sealable compartments to contain any penetrations/water, and having a minimal amount of 'floodable' interior. There is some foam going against the hull everywhere, just not 4" of it.

The mast support is made of steel, a squared, upside-down "U" shape that thru-bolts to the remnant of the main bulkhead. It's 2" square tube for the vertical members, with a 6" wide C-channel span between those directly under the mast, that extends ~2" beyond the vertical members. At present I am just using normal steel, well protected w/epoxy paint; we'll see how it holds up. Judicious application of Corrosion Block is doing the trick so far. Cabin top outside of this and down under the sidedeck to be strengthened with an extra layer of a FRP/foam core beam, just to make sure it is stiffened plenty.

The berth has a pull-out section making it wide enough in the head area for me + 1. Has been tested with my girlfriend and proven comfortable, but this might not work for 2 larger people (I'm 5'9", she's a mere 5'2", neither of us is rotund), although it is in excess of 5' wide at the head end. I may try to make accommodation for a 'non-girl' guest :) to sleep up forward, but am not too worried about that right now. Possible idea is to have boards for this which would serve dual purpose; they'd also be able to work as a 'coffer dam' at the main bulkhead to contain water in case of flooding.

The seat is a pivoting boat seat that puts my buns at about the level of the aft countertop, giving a good view out the deadlights, and will be useable while at sea if conditions aren't horrendous.

The head/wet locker is as pictured earlier in this thread, with low walls. Putting the portapotti outboard allows for a small flat area on the sole, and I made the 'wall' by the companionway jut out a bit, under a high-step that allows easy access into the cabin when there is a companionway board in place.

Funny: I have a small window unit A/C mounted through the after bulkhead (vents through cockpit locker) in the head right now, for dockside use. It was given to me, and proved a real pain to step over when companionway mounted, especially since I rarely use it (maybe 6-8 times this summer), so I put it there. It's in a high area of the cockpit locker that is otherwise unused (forward of the cockpit locker hatch, aft of the bulkhead, upper corner), so eventually I'll build walls around it and create separate cockpit and cabin access through sealing hatches; I'll have a mini-wetlocker there once I remove it to go cruising.

epiphany

06-14-2008, 10:18 AM

Hark! What light thru yonder deck shines?

'Tis the sun, and where the chainplate be, the balsa 'tis dry...

epiphany

06-14-2008, 10:25 AM

In preparation for a mast re-raising in the not-too-distant future, I thought I'd at last pull and inspect the chainplates. As discussed before, I want to replace the original bronze thru-deck plates with some hull-mounted stainless steel plates.

Imagine my surprise when I realized that these chainplates aren't bronze at all, even though they are in fact Original from the factory. Evidenced by having the same paint on them as the rest of the hull interior, and the same as what was inside the ex-hanging locker, where this plate was installed...

I did a search prior to posting, but found no reference to OEM stainless plates. Maybe this was a late-production run modification...

epiphany

06-14-2008, 10:44 AM

I'll be pulling the rest once I finish this post, but if they are as good as this one is, I will be happy. It has a very small amount of surface rust, and that's all I can see that might hint at corrosion.

The thru-bulkhead bolts are also in very fine shape, with a very sharp 'ting' sound when tapped with the wrench. That leads me to believe the inside of the bolts is probably in good shape. Even so, they'll be replaced.

Other stuff:

Unable to get any response from the local really-good welder guy via any other method, I have resorted to blackmail.

I fixed his son's computer, and when the son asked how much he owed me, I said "Well, now. Let's us have a little talk..." :D

He has a drawing of what I need, and will be getting his father to weld it up for me from some very thick-walled aluminum tubing I am spec'ing. I am glad for this, as my prior attempts at getting this done by the father fell on deaf, sportfisherman-welding-only ears (read: my pockets weren't deep enough). Nonetheless, he does absolutely stellar work, so I am hoping to see the same for Katie's mast support. Hopefully it will only be a matter of a few weeks before I can at last put that back in. Last, I have been thinking that it would have to be done of regular steel by another, less professional welder, so it is really nice to know I won't have to deal with all those issues... :)

Other, other stuff:

The interior still looks like Frankenboat (fugly because it is mismatched scraps making do as a real-life simulation), but the overall layout has come together, it is exactly what I want/need, and I am piecing it together over time as I build it in.

And I've mocked up and will soon be building in the cockpit foot well mods. I've boxed out an area 24" aft of the original bridgedeck/aft bulkhead in the forward part of the well. It'll serve to reduce the amount of water the footwell can hold, and is convenient external stowage for, well, something yet to be determined. :) I'd thought to possibly put the propane tank in there, but it's not quite the right size, & wouldn't technically drain overboard.

Last, I cut through the after bulkhead and extended the port berth under the cockpit seat, an arrangement that I think is going to work well for a secure sea/pilot berth when things get rough. The port berth has been raised 8" IIRC from the original height, w/stowage underneath, and the forward 2' approx can drop down to form a seat there just aft of the original cabinet/drawers.

ebb

06-14-2008, 12:00 PM

Goodle stuff here Kurt!
Your remodels are inspirational, unusual and right-on.
Have you taken a magnet to the plates?
We've talked much about plates and metals in other threads. With stainless you are always taking a chance, I'm convinced of that.
316L or megayacht stainless like aquamet is the only possibility for through deck aps.
They may be 316 if no magnets attract, or 304 if magnets do. Trouble is marine monel can be magnetic and highly resistant to just about everything at the same time.
We do have a history of monel being used on Ariels (front tank). Monel is nickel and copper alloy mostly with a small percent of iron usually.
You do have that expected flash of rust showing right where the plate is cut off from oxygen in the deck, but NO flash where you might expect on the face against the plywood bulkhead.
No deterioration in the balsa! I would guess your plates have finishing plates around them on deck. With good caulk I think those little plates do a lot to keep water from following the chainplates through the deck.

I think that if I had to use any stainless where some part of it had to be deprived of air I would squeeky clean the area with the best degreaser and SCRUB 5200 or better yet LifeSeal onto the surface with scotchbrite pad. Really work it in. Something similar to the bearing surfaces also, making absolutely sure no liquid of any description ever touch that place again on earth or at sea. It's the chloride we don't want soaking the s.s. in close spaces.
Choice of LifeSeal (silicone/urethane hybrid) is based on its expected flexible life, which is the best of all the synthetic caulks.

Snapshots of your interior!
Unless you got a patent on it.
Or some great ideas we might steal,
which I will!

Tim D.

06-14-2008, 05:40 PM

Snapshots of your interior!
Unless you got a patent on it.
Or some great ideas we might steal,
which I will!
I agree stealing ideas is fun!;)

Judging by one of your pics Kurt you are well grounded

mbd

06-15-2008, 06:26 AM

Snapshots of your interior!
Yeah Buster! How about a virtual tour? It's all about seeing the work in progress here, so others can benefit. Right Ebb? ;)

c_amos

06-15-2008, 07:32 PM

Goodle stuff here Kurt!.....Snapshots of your interior!
Snapshots of your interior!
Unless you got a patent on it.
Or some great ideas we might steal,
which I will!!

I have just returned from a tour of the fleet. I am happy to report Katie's interior mods are well thought out, and I believe Kurt is going to have a really great cruising interior. I would love to post some of the pictures I took on the sly.... but unfortunately a couple of goonish sportfishing buddies of Kurts seized my camera and deleted the shots....

.... Unfortunately when I took the pictures I failed to realize Geekworks (http://thegeekworks.com/index.html) had the boat wired with extensive security monitoring equipment.... :cool:

epiphany

06-16-2008, 07:04 AM

EMP does the job every time, sorry for wiping out your camera memory card that way... :D

Here's a pic, from back aways, I think Feb, but I added in some lines to show what's where (or going to be where). Right now I've started up in the vberth area, strbd side. After that I'll go to port, then the area behind the seat (which you can't see in the pic). That area is going to be the 'utility closet', and has enough vertical space to serve as a hanging wetlocker. The plan is to do the areas seen least, first. :) I am no skilled technician like Tony, Ebb, Geoff, and all the others that have gone before. I've also come to the conclusion that I am more than willing to have a less-than-perfect, more workmanlike finish, in the interest of getting it done a LOT quicker. :D

Also, a couple pics of the floaty-board-core material I am using for the interior construction. It's pink foam and either 1/8" door skin or 1/4" luan, bonded together with fiberglass and Gorilla Glue. The wood adds stiffness but mostly impact protection, and makes a construct tougher than just plain foam. I'll glass over the wood once it's all in place, for a bit more strength, and easy cleaning. The layer of glass between the wood and foam works *really* well - this is some tough stuff. It is almost unbreakable, even without the foam. I laugh when I hand someone a small piece of 1/4" cheap ply w/10oz cloth bonded on one side, and say "Break that". They always think it'll snap, but wind up having to use 2 hands and a *lot* of effort.

mbd

06-16-2008, 07:50 AM

Alright! Kurt comes through with some excellent teasers. Thanks!

Love the open cabin! Can't wait for some pics of your enclosed Flicka-esque head too... ;)

Tony G

06-16-2008, 10:40 AM

Kurt

Fantastic layout! The 3-D models and pictures really help people like me visualize your interior plans. Now I can see, or maybe feel the flow through the boat and it is fanstastic. There are just so many ideas out there and you just can't fit them into one hull. When I see the pics of remodels like yours I start 2nd guessing everything I've done so far, layout wise. It's easy to lust after and desire a bigger boat. That would make things fit easier, but, we know the stats on bigger boats leaving the dock.:cool:

You did strike on one thing that concerns me with my remodel, weight. Vindo and some of the other Eurpean builders use foam composite laminations throughout their interiors for weight managment. Really gave that some thought while tearing everything out. I am striving not to put a significant amount of additional wood back in for fear of screwing up a sensitive balance that many refer to. I fear with all I've added to Dream Weaver she'll be too heavy to sail well. I don't really care about speed so much as being able to fill the stores with enough supplies to get gone for a while without turning her into a pig.

Really, really love the open interior and open main bulkhead. Gozzard's have capitolized on the not there bulkhead as well as many others. Now you have also!

Hats off to you, sir.

Check out www.genoabay.net there is another interior that is open with the wrap-around setee. Taurus is the boat I'm thinking of. Kind cool...

ebb

06-16-2008, 11:24 AM

Tony,
Too bad plastic don't grow like wood.
The color, the grain and the smell is so much nicer

If you scroll to "Good News" to its thumbnails on the genoabay link...
about 4th row down there is a shot of its "Teller"
(Maybe that's where the word comes from?
TELL the boat where to go with this here branch.)

The fancicus rex tiller we see there is just about what I think Little Gull oughter have.
Note how ... W I D E ... the tiller is at its base!
It is a beautyful square section. A bit rounder for me on the handle. please!
And it appears to be scrolled from solid honduras with top and bottom ash laminations added for strength and good looks!
Interesting...

Kurt,
did you say you had a design for a FOAM TILLER???:D

epiphany

06-19-2008, 10:23 PM

Ebb -

I found these potential foam tillers, they come apparently in both a straight and a curved model.

Tim D.

06-19-2008, 10:30 PM

Ebb -

I found these potential foam tillers, they come apparently in both a straight and a curved model.
:rolleyes: This forum is much to dignified for me to comment on this

ebb

06-20-2008, 05:19 AM

Tim,
B & S Extrusions makes that foam tiller material.
They're a division of Marshmallow Composites LOL.

But there already are foam and carbon tillers in the market.
They just haven't got around to ones you can sit on. Yet.

epiphany

09-30-2008, 04:48 PM

To pull this thread back from the Brink of "Inyerendo"... ;D

(Sorry in advance for the bad pun, but - Ebb made me do it!)

The end is near!

The end of an extended stay at dockside for me and Katie... ;D

Went to the welders today, he will have my interior bulkhead-replacing custom aluminum tubing mast support finished next week. WOOT! It's the one piece I have been needing in order to get moving on the interior, and in order to put the spar back up and sail again...

It's being made of 1 & 7/8" tubing, with a wall thickness of ~5/32". It is replacing the original wooden beams of white oak, and so will be much stronger and stiffer, and will also allow the interior to be much more open. I'll post pics when I get it, with more details.

Ever notice that nobody posts full info on their external chainplates? Well, I'm fixing that... :)

The new exterior chainplate material goes off to the shop tomorrow. I have decided to have someone who is set up for it do the cutting and drilling. The material is the same stock as what originally came on the Ariels (1.25" x 0.187"), but all the chainplates are longer, and they will be mounted externally on the hull.

Additionally, I am going to a split-backstay arrangement, vs the stock single backstay. Below are a couple pics of the chainplate stock, marked for cutting and drilling. The uppers are 18" long, the lowers and backstay plates 12". There is one of the original chainplates in the pic for scale/comparison; IIRC, they were 8-9" long.

Measurements for the holes:

The top end, I traced from the original plates. I then flipped the original plate over, and drew on the bottom hole (in order to have a proper amount of material around the hole. Then for the shorter plates, I measured up 3.5" for each additional bolt hole.

For the long upper plate holes, I repeated the above for the top and bottom holes. Then I took the original chainplate, lined it up on the bottom hole mark, and made the next hole mark by skipping one of the original holes. I don't recall the exact distance, can post it if needed.

The plates will be bent for a fair lead on the shroud 2" below the uppermost point. The first hole down on the lowers is 2.5" below the top lip of the drip rail/gunnel, 3.5" on the uppers. This gives plenty of room to get a wrench on the nuts inside, when attaching them to the hull.

The proportions look right to me. Input anyone?

epiphany

10-01-2008, 04:47 AM

This is what the welder is making for me, approximately. The tubing is 1 7/8" outer diameter, thick wall (5/32") tube. The overall dimensions are included in the graphic.

The bend in the top piece is as follows: the center 12" is flat, beyond that there will be 1.5" of 'droop' at the end of each side. This shape conforms to the shape of the cabin roof, which like many Ariels, has been flattened from a smooth curve by 40 years or so of mast weight/pressure. The top tube will also have a flat plate about 2.5" wide welded along the top edge for its whole length, as seen in the graphic to the right side. This will spread the load once the mast is back up, make for a larger bearing area, and to make mating the support to the cabin roof easier.

The height of the support allows it to extend a bit more than 2' below the top edge of the cutaway bulkhead, which was trimmed just above the level of the port-side cabinet top. 6 3-4" square plates will be welded to the verticals, with holes that bolts will go through to attach the whole thing to the bulkhead. I may also opt for a 3rd hole which goes through the tubing (a triangle pattern for the bolts). There will also be some gussets at the top where the tubes meet, to help transfer the horizontal loads to the vertical.

The internal width of the two vertical tubes is the same dimension as the original Ariel doorway. The faint blue line on the drawing approximates the cabin trunk, deck, and bulkhead.

This structure is costing, "ballpark", between $200-300, and is being made of a bright finish tubing. The compression strength of the tubing is over 1,000#, I was told. This is the material used to make 'tuna towers' and hardtop frames on large sportfishing boats (35-70'+). All I will have to do to finish it for mounting is to drill the holes for the bulkhead bolts.

I told the welder that other folks might be interested in getting one of these, since so many Ariels have had compression effects, he said he could always make more. :)

bill@ariel231

10-01-2008, 06:33 AM

Kurt,

interesting.. will there be a foot to the columns to transfer the mast step load to the cabin sole?

cheers,
bill@ariel231

epiphany

10-01-2008, 09:28 AM

Bill -

The oak supports sort of did that, resting on the v-berth floor. I've removed them, so I'll widen the base of the bulkhead plywood both above and below the level of the step-up v-berth floor area (or, where that used to be, since I dropped it a bit). The bulkhead doesn't actually touch the hull at that point, there is a gap there. I am going to fill all of that in, so as to spread loads around as much as possible.

ebb

10-02-2008, 07:49 PM

Kurt sir,

If you are interested, my magnum opus on the beam subject is at post #50 on the old but current Strongback thread. I think it's worth thrashing.:)

epiphany

10-10-2008, 11:56 AM

Ebb -

I am committed to a course of action already. But - I do think it's going to work, and work well. :D

Sorry for the quality of the pics - dim light (rainy here today), and a cell-phone camera...

I picked it up this AM, tore my boat apart to make it fit in, and just tacked it in place to gaze for a while. Ahhhh.... finally!

At the top middle, that's a reflection, not a gap. It sits within 1/4" of the cabin top all the way across the 3' span.

Can't wait to be able to take good, ***finished*** pics of the interior. Even so, that's a few months away...

Outboard of the ends of this structure will be small vertical 'walls', one on either side of the bulkhead area by a few inches, creating a box structure in order to keep the deck from flexing in that area (many moons ago I posted about that, I think there are pics here somewhere). I will also "sister" the top of the support with some 2-2.5" ribs that will span the overhead, sitting just fore and aft of the support. More anti-flex, stiffness-inducing structure.

I think I am going to have this welder make me a tabernacle, also...

Cost came out to 3 Boat Units. Not bad! By the time it is said and done, I will have sub-5 BU in materials and fabrication of said for the new mast support and external chainplate setup.

Tony G

10-10-2008, 05:25 PM

Did you say less than 5 boat units? Including the tabernacle?!! That's good dealing on your part.

I like the direction you're headed with Katie Marie. It's a welcome deviation from the 'norm' or remods. If there is such a thing. There are just so dang many options and directions one can persue once you make that first cut.

Really looking forward to this one coming together over the next few months. Specially since it's now officially too cold to do much of anything up here:(

Hats off to ya, Kurt. Keep it coming.

epiphany

10-10-2008, 09:00 PM

*Not* including a tabernacle - that is just something I have been considering, and this guy does really good work. His welds are really nice, and I am getting exactly what I design.

Though I do like the SS Ballinger (?) hinged mast step, I think a tabernacle is a better way to go for me. Ideally, I would like to be able to lower the mast by myself as easily as possible, if/when need be. It looks like to me that a tabernacle offers some better options than just a hinged base. It can be designed so that the spar can clear the cabintop step, for instance, as well as giving me stronger connection to the deck due to having a larger base (that I design that way).

So that means I have to come up with a different mast base solution, especially considering that I am not screwing/bolting thru-deck into a wooden beam any longer. Ideally, I want to not directly mechanically (or therefore electrically) bind the mast to the aluminum support inside. Cuts down on corrosion, and helps keep lightning out of the inside of the boat*, that way. :)

And I don't really have to design a tabernacle, really - I just have to adapt an age-old design to this particular boat. :) Right now, I am considering through-bolting it to the aforementioned 'ribs' on either side of the aluminum mast support.

------

An ebbdendum (if I can coin a phrase ;) ) to the above: there is a lot of uncertainty about lightning, except for three things that I can see:

1) It can cause a lot of property (and personal) damage.
2) It is not at all predictable.
3) That it *does* like to go to ground along the most direct path, is about the only thing scientists seem to know for sure.

The most direct route OFF of the boat from the masthead (the most likely place to take a strike) is: the backstay.

Backstays make no turns on the way down, and terminate closer to 'earth' than the forestay. On our boats, they also have the added bonus of having the most physical separation from belowdecks. OK, only by a little bit, but that might be enough. :) So it seems to me that they are the best way to attempt to route lightning, or at least to give it a good, easy path to ground. I have some ideas about that, for down the road...

Might not be much of a concern for a lot of you, but lightning here is fairly frequent, year-round, and darn near a plague in summer. There's that, and a couple too-close experiences with it, so I am keeping it in mind as I do all this.

ebb

10-10-2008, 11:45 PM

Hey Kurt,
1, 2, 3 exactly.
Once we discussed that here - and I took seriously an internet lightning expert's recommendation to connect the chainplates and the mast plate inside the boat to fat naked copper wires in big radius curves to a couple big bronze bolts that go through the hull and clamp a bodacious chunk of bronze to the bottom - as so-called 'ground'. I remember the plate for some reason had to have SQUARE EDGES - couldn't be faired to the hull or slanted.

Until I remembered the irrationality of 10 million volts of lightning which might just go ahead blow out the bottom of the boat.

And why the hell would you invite that mother inside?:eek:

Somebody came up with a poorman's solution that I've never heard better.

When lightning threatens: clip a battery cable to each stay and shroud and drop the end in the water. We'd have an octopus of eight convenient grounds the enemy could choose. One or every leg.

Enhancements might include a lashing for the clips to keep them secure to the turnbuckles. A flat metal plate soldered to the ends, maybe 4"X4", in the water.
And a canvas bag to keep them ready in the locker.:cool:

epiphany

10-11-2008, 05:47 AM

Reason for the square edges: the 'point' where sharp edges meet will allow lightning a quick, clean exit from whatever it is running over. Lightning travels along the surface of things, and doesn't like to turn - so it's like Wile E. Coyote on a cliffs edge when it comes to a square turn, and off into 'ground' it'll go.

At least, that's what I've read/"they" think...

One company markets a ridiculously expensive copper pipe thingy that has points and sharp edges all over/inside of it. They claim that it has, for the diameter of a relatively small pipe, some huge amount of surface area thus exposed to ground. More hydrodynamic that a plate. Seems like you could get the same result with one of those "static dissipating" brushes, stuck in the water instead of at the top of the mast. ;)

I've thought to devise a folding or telescoping arm(s) that just flips down into the water behind the boat from off the backstay(s), try to keep edges and surface disruptions on it to a minimum, see if I can't make it a nice "off ramp". The other thing is the external chainplates; my uppers are going to terminate close enough to the water that if I am heeled, it'll be a short jump there, too.

Of course, keeping a battery jumper cable coiled in a accessible box is another easy layer of (hopeful, isn't it all?) protection.

I'm with you, Ebb - our boats are too small inside, to be sharing it with gazilabazillions of volts. And I don't want to live with large diameter cable/wire artfully looped all throughout the cabin. :D Because it would have to be intrusive, to make that kind of ground system effective, IMHO.

Wandering farther afield: The idea of the new synthetic rigging tickles my noggin; being able to keep a supply of small diameter line aboard instead of a big coil of SS wire for rigging repairs/replacement makes more storage sense. But I wonder at the ability of the miracle fiber to handle the temps of a lightning strike. And having the mast held up solely by 'rope' means any lightning which comes has only one conductive path down - and that's straight to the cabintop.

Might be a good thing for emergencies, though...

Contemplating using something like this FRP rod for the 'core' of my 'ribs':

http://www.trippplastics.com/products/products.asp?catID=22

It looks like the Pearson factory used a side grinder disk to trim the edges of the cabintop liner, because I can see where the under skin was penetrated by just such a device. I'm going to need to remove 3-4" of the liner, in order to bond directly to the underside of the deck. Trying to think of how best to do that, what tool to use. Dremel comes to mind, but I wish I could find something more along the lines of a "nibbler" like sheet metal workers use...

ebb

10-11-2008, 07:27 AM

I know the liner in 338 isn't very thick.
It may be made with only matt, no cloth, and cuts like parmesan.
Played with it when the cabin windows were filled.
Chopped out the dodger's window rabbets with a DREMEL CARBORUNDUM DISK very easy. A bit tedious but it's a lite and accurate tool. Not exactly the same material as gelcoat and matt but it wasn't fazed by the thicker glass fabrics. The disk is a mm thick, 1.25" D. They mount to an arbor supplied by Dremel.

Have access to a Fein Tool? It oscillates rather than spins. One of their thin cutting blades would slice the liner in no time. They have a thin metal spatula shaped cutter that you could run along a batten propped (or double-stick carpet taped) in place. No brainer. And it has a funky vac attachment that helps collect the dust. But it produces less dust than spinners.

[When I look at some of the hefty backing plates some have used for winches and clutches on the roof, I can see propping a plate against the liner, using the FeinTool blade to cut the liner using it for the pattern, and then rubber mount the winch's backing plate directly to the underside of the coach roof. Wooden plates would definitely appear smaller/thinner and custom. If yer worried about the liner being loose, or you want to flatten a bulge, or have an even neater look, use a slightly smaller pattern to cut the liner hole and rabbet the backing block so that it laps over and supports the liner it is going thru.]

No cut approach.
Can you glue the liner to the roof - then glue your strongback to the liner?
Would work if you include some thru fasteners too. Trouble is the cabin liner was laid-up upside down in a mold and the finish layer of matt and polyester might have had wax in it to get it to set hard. That wax might still be there on the roof AND on the liner. I'd probably use LifeSeal after dewaxing and abrading to install. I used thickened epoxy which is perhaps TOO rigid.

I feel the bulkhead and any support going across the roof inside has to be immobilized by frp tabbing or glue or adhesive (or all of these), especially if the bridge is not going to be fastened thru the roof. imco

In the '60s right angle grinders swung 6" and larger disks and weighed 10#. We have those 4" Makita's now.
Seldom use mine inside anymore because the tool high speeds dust into EVERY nook and cranny all over the boat. It uses a thicker carborundom disk making ten times the mess of any other tool. I wouldn't use it!

I had the bulkhead end of the liner exposed when the strongback was removed. Liner was crooked. 338's liner was put in crooked! Clamped in place by the woodtrim and windows it caused stress bumps and hollows and bulging edges under the deck that are still evident. You'd think that after 337 cabin liners the guys at Pearson would have had it down by the time they got to Little Gull
- without having to crap it in place or cut it to fit!!!
Dang farmers!

Success in your endeavor , sir!

Commander227

10-12-2008, 05:53 PM

Here is what it looked like when my Ensign was hit by lightning. She was sitting at her mooring amid taller masts when she got it...poor girl. The Ensign has the chainplates grounded to the bronze through hull which is suppose to dissipate the load... it didn't quite carry all the load as the lightning found 28 other places to disembark.

epiphany

10-12-2008, 07:46 PM

Holy Moly!!! :eek::eek::eek:

Amazing that you can see the tracks of the voltage.

Wow.

Did she stay afloat?

Commander227

10-13-2008, 05:31 AM

Yes...kinda.... The Ensign will not sink as it has positive floatation, so swamped is more like it. When I went to check on her in the morning she was awash to her rubrail. I had to run a 8hp gas trash pump to keep her high enough to cross the lake to get to the crane. A long weekend of grinding out the damage and laying up repairs and she was back in the water. The glass was mostly intact where the lightning went through the hull, but the resin was vaporized out of the the glass cloth.
Makes me happy I was not on the boat at the time.

ebb

10-13-2008, 07:45 AM

Commander227,
Unbelievable!!!!!!!!!!

Mind a few questions?

I can understand a wire 'bonded' thru-hull showing the EXIT of the electric shock
but do the other EXITS seen in your photos have any relation to metal or the bonding system?
Or do you think they are entirely random? Could a wired in bilgepump have taken a hit and the jolt hopped to the hull?
I have a paper here that reports surveyors have noticed lightning EXITS along the TOP of encapsulated ballast. Any indication of this phenomena on the Ensign?

Did the strike fry electronics like we have heard happens to others?
How about the battery?

The thought of being aboard and struck by lightning isn't one bit funny. It's obvious to me that bronze thru-hulls should not be wired together - which was originally done I guess by Pearson to reduce galvanic corrosion. Of course anything going thru to the water side (and COPPER side) of the hull is going to suffer...like the sonar transducer and knot meter. And any wire (including interior mast copper wiring) or metallic surface is going to attract the strike. 'Side-flashing' is the danger for anybody on deck. Side-flashing is the strike connecting across space between metal structures.

I'm convinced that maralon thru-hulls are better than bronze from both the electronic and galvanic viewpoints. Maralon melts better than bronze.

ABYC Standards require that ALL METAL MASSES inside the boat be connected to the lightning ground - which is that large area sintered or plain bronze plate bolted to the hull.
On deck by the same rule, stanchions, winches, fittings, pipe frames must also be connected and grounded. Seems extremely difficult to do! And if aluminum is in the chain, opens the door wider to galvanics.
I would be tempted to keep the inside and outside systems separate, wouldn't you? Separate grounding plates on either side of the hull?

There's no guarantee the strike is going to hit the lightning rod you've erected on the top of the mast. I worry about the connection - copper and aluminum and the straight unimpeded path is the problem.
No guarantee the bonded and grounded system is going to be tracked by the strike!

It is said the safest place during a lightning storm is down below and away from ANY metal.
Because of metal in and around the cockpit
the most dangerous place to be on the boat is in the cockpit!

SO:
What have you decided to do?

Commander227

10-13-2008, 09:30 AM

Ebb,
The exits appeared to be at random, the lead ballast was not grounded so I didn't have any problems with the keel cap. the fiberglass tube that the tiller post runs through had a few holes blown in it though.
My boat has only the one through hull otherwise its a clean hull. the bilge pump was fine as was the battery (thou the pump drained it in a valiant attempt to keep Serendipity afloat) I have no electronics on the boat, but the boat next to me lost theirs. The Mast head light, Windex and the screws that hold the masthead fitting were blown away, but the rest of the lights were fine, as was the mast wiring. I was worried about the standing rigging inside the swedged fittings so I replaced that.
My Daddy always taught me to drag the spinnaker pole in the water off the back stay when sailing in threatening weather.(I don't know if it would help, but at least you feel like your doing something)
As its a proven fact that lightning never strikes the same spot twice I feel quite confident that I'm in the clear from here on out.(I think that covers my other boats as well, don't you?)

ebb

10-13-2008, 10:39 AM

I think what they mean is that when lightning strikes your Ensign again
It probably won't put holes in it in exactly the same places;)

I agree with your Dad.
Trailing something metallic in the water is the best bet.
Spinnaker poles nws, I think the relatively simple battery cable trick with small (of some optimum size I don't know) flat copper plates brazed to the end of the cables on each one is the way to go.*

If the idea is to quide your personal strike using your mast then the lightning rod has to have special attention as to how to connect it to the mast and/or shrouds and stays.

At the moment I'm thinking that given the chances of getting hit versus the chance for galvanic corrosion using copper around aluminum, especially 30 feet up the mast where you don't go every day,
maybe the direct connections to the mast, to the shroud tangs, to the toggles for the fore and backstay
should be made with STAINLESS STEEL WIRE or cable.
Why not? Minimizes corrosion. I would still consider the usual precautions of s.s. to s.s. and s.s. to aluminum by using standard isolating tefgel and UHMW tape in making connections. Ten million volts is going to vaporize any piddly corrosion precautions!

Of course, thinking 'lightning rod' means that along with trailing the standing rigging one other track point should be included. And that is from the base of the mast. Another one or two battery cables from the mast base also trailed overboard.

Everybody agrees that when you get hit by lightning you have to expect damage. So I guess the system design should try to minimize structural damage and try to get expected damage onto sacrificial easy to replace stuff.:rolleyes:

What do you think......????:confused:
__________________________________________________ ________________________________
*Visited a lightning ground product site - aimed at another wallet size than ours. They had cast bronze tubular affairs for the trailing end that looked like strange drain fittings. Playing 'poorman substitute' I thought that lengths of copper tube might be used with multiple staggered sawcuts lengthwise in the tube - kind of crudely imitating what they had. Multiple sharp edges seem important. And the grounding legs would maybe store better.
By the way scintered bronze does not work well as a ground. In one of Casey's books he suggests a long bronze strap rather that a rectangular plate. More fastenings but more hydro.
And there is a minority of sailors who believe that attracting lightning to the mast with a lightning rod is not a very smart thing to do, either:rolleyes:

epiphany

03-08-2009, 08:22 AM

Thought I'd post some "how to" pics of the paint-stripping process that evolved with much trial and error on my part. The only 'parts' needed are a citrus-based paint stripper (the brand I used is named "CitriStrip", and sells at WalMart for ~$10/qt), a wire brush, plenty of those plastic grocery bags, some good music to listen to, and some elbow grease. This is an easy, much cleaner alternative to sanding in order to remove the 40+/- year old, interior latex paint in the v-berth and cabin.

I tried a bunch of methods - the one on the container, some alternative strategies, and what I'll show here. Of what I tried, this is the quickest and by far the *cleanest* way to strip the paint as easily as possible. The other things I tried were either ineffective, produced a *lot* of waste, or both.

The method is simple: apply an even but not too-thick coat of the stripper to the paint you want to remove. Wait a little bit - 15 minutes or so - and then get busy with the wire brush.

The plastic bags are key here; without them, this job gets messy and frustrating. After you scrub a bit with the wire brush, it begins to load up with the removed paint residue. You will notice that it starts leaving clumps of residue behind at this point. Grab a plastic bag, put it over your non-wirebrush hand. Starting at one end of the brush, let the plastic bag kind of stick to the residue. Pinch the plastic bag so that it goes between the brush bristles and strips out the stripper residue. Leaving the bag stuck where it was, move your fingers over to the next row of bristles, repeat the residue cleaning. When you get to the end of the brush, you can fold the bag around the removed residue, and place the bag into a trash can without having gotten sticky old paint residue on your hands or your $100-nice-windbreaker-birthday-present that you should have not been wearing while stripping paint. (Hey, I was doing this in the winter, it was cold...)

Two passes of stripper and wire brushing will leave the hull almost bare clean, and ready for further work. I'll attach some in-progress and results pics to the next few posts that will show this all visually.

epiphany

03-08-2009, 08:27 AM

This picture shows the hull in all 3 stages of the process. Below the old bunk, the stripping is finished. Above that to the right, one layer of stripper has been applied and then wire-brushed off. Forward of that area the original paint and mildew farm has been untouched.

epiphany

03-08-2009, 08:30 AM

This is the same area. In this pic, the right side has been attacked twice with stripper and wire brush, and is finished. The left side is the original paint and mildew farm, post-first coat and wirebrushing.

epiphany

03-08-2009, 08:38 AM

I'll attach 3 pics to this post.

Pic 1 is the wire brush somewhat loaded-up with stripping residue. This is actually not that much (you can load the brush up a *lot* more when the residue is wetter), but was beginning to leave 'clumps' behind, and is enough to illustrate.

Pic 2 is using the plastic bag to strip the residue from the brush.

Pic 3 is the brush post-cleaning. As you can see, this works well.

epiphany

03-08-2009, 08:49 AM

And last in this gripping narrative of a saga that will stand throughout all times as one of the greatest of stori...

Well, here's how the hull looks, stripped. ;)

There are some linear spots that still have a paint-y appearance, but those are actually an acrylic glue residue from when I adhered some foam to the hull a while back as an experiment. The stripper did soften the residue and would effectively make it removable, if it were left on for much longer than I did. Easier and quicker is to let it harden back up a bit, and simply scrape it off.

It would be really easy at this point to spend just a ittle more time and completely remove 100% of the paint from down in the weave of the cloth and in the little nooks and crannies, but this gets you to 99%+ pretty quickly. For me and what I am doing, this is more than sufficient.

Here's hoping that this method saves some future Ariel fixer-uppers from excessive sanding and/or experimentation with strippers. ;)

Tim D.

03-08-2009, 09:09 AM

Kurt have you used Citristripper on bottom paint? Specifically ablative paint.

epiphany

03-08-2009, 09:44 AM

Tim - Nope, I sure haven't. There is a thread here in the forums about using a product named "PeelAway" that covers the topic very well (thx to Senor Ebb!), and would be the way I would go to remove old bottom paint.

epiphany

05-27-2009, 04:50 PM

Have started next-to-last construction in the v-berth. I say 'next to last' because how I am doing it, I will still have some wiggle room WRT customization/changes. But - I don't think I'll need it.

What I've finally figured out is a way to do the build-in, while I live-in. Here's how I describe it to people:

Imagine living, with all your 'stuff', in a walk-in closet. A closet that happens to be pointy on one end. Now, do construction in there, too. That's what it's like.

:D

So the problem has been to find a way to exist within the space, while creating and changing it. The icing on the problem is to do so in a manner which allows the rest of my life to continue, ie; work to pay the bills, and fitting in the creation/changing when I can. I've had some great ideas that I won't be able to use (foam "plywood" being the best, IMO), regrettably. But what I've come up with is "good enough", and seems to be working well.

I'm doing it using 1x4" white pine planks. It's a wood that is:

of local origin (I wanted at least part of the boat to be made of local material)
cheap
easy to work
takes resin well
a manageable size for working with in the confines of the boat

And the way that I am doing the construction is suited to my admittedly primitive carpentry skills (or lack thereof). I can work in small bits - if I only have 20 minutes, I can work just that long, and still make/see progress. I can do all the cutting and drilling while onboard (and even at night), and immediately put parts into their place. At present, I am only semi-permanently tacking everything together with drywall screws - rough but functional. If it works well after it's all together, then I will permanently assemble it with resin/glue/cloth etc. How it is now will be plenty strong enough for me to determine whether I will be doing that, or making some changes first.

I am not sure how I am going to finish it (appearance-wise), but am leaning towards 'pickling' the pine, keeping it light and airy inside.

This past week, I've done the first bit, the port side of the v-berth. With that practice under my belt, I should be able to get the starboard side done and be working in the "main cabin" by this weekend.

In keeping with my intention to make the boat (hopefully) sink-proof, I've raised the top of the v-berth 9" above where it was originally. Partitioning off a 13" wide section of this against the main bulkhead gave me about 20 gallons of storage. I don't know how many cubic feet that is, but the bin I used to keep my food in is 18 gallons, and all of that fit in easily with some room to spare. The 'temporarily permanent' construction I am doing is allowing me to make sure that my concepts actually work in reality.

It's gonna be nice to be binless soon, for the first time in ~5 years. :D

Tony G

05-27-2009, 06:12 PM

Rock on Capn K! It is monumental to finally get to put something back into the boat isn't it? Why is it you have changed your mind about the manufactured sandwich?

And don't forget about the obligatory photos!!!!

Ironical as it is, I'm now down sizing and moving into totes and packs.:o

epiphany

05-27-2009, 06:40 PM

Grassyness, Capt T! :) It feels great. It has been a long time comin'. ;)

Re: the foam sandwich - basically it just comes down to time. I would have to make the sheets, then working with them would be like working with plywood, then they would need glassing on both sides.

Versus the planks - rough measure, cut, fit, scribe to exact size, trim, install. :)

Apparently, I am some kind of carpenters idjit. Trust me when I say about all I can handle warping my mind around is about 4" at a time of the complex shapes that are inside this boat. :) I've tried! I played with using sheet foam to make some of the interior stuff, and it just wouldn't come together. With the 1x4" planks, once I get just 1 of them in, I then have a straight line to start from, and it is pretty quick, easy, and painless then. ;)

So that begs the question:

Can I still hang out here with you boatwork masters? :D

I'll post progress pics when it becomes noticeable.

Probably I'll have it figured out after a bit of doing it, but getting started is the thing.

mbd

05-28-2009, 07:01 AM

Hey Kurt,

Thanks for the update. Nice work as always, and some pics too! Sure would love to see some "overall" pics of your current layout. :D

Questions/comments:
- Ordinarily, I wouldn't think twice about using a soft wood like pine if it's just furniture, but being that you're intending watertight compartments, do you think the individual boards are up to the task as far as durability and seal-ability? I guess you could glass the insides, but that seems like a lot more effort... It does look very nice though, kind of like Brave Heart!
- In the first pic above, it looks like a portable throne in the v-berth? Didn't you make an enclosed head in the after portion of the cabin?
- Finally, where the heck do you and the crew dogs sleep?? By my count, you've got the v-berth for storage, an aft enclosed head compartment, and a dinette... :D

epiphany

05-28-2009, 10:15 AM

You could simulate an 'overall' picture on your boat, with a little work. First, distress the interior a bit. You know, remove some paint from random spots, take off cushion covers, cut out parts or all of various interior cabinetry work, and then scatter around a fair amount of what would seem to be junk. Afterwards, toss a hand grenade into the boat, and shut the companionway hatch.

When the smoke clears, what you see would probably fairly well approximate an 'overall' picture of Katie's interior at the moment.

I am saving *those* pictures until after the "prettying" is done. :D

Re: white pine - it is soft (it is also light), and I will be glassing the interior of the various compartments. Prior to that, if the arrangement works like I think it should, I will be edge gluing all the butt joints with Gorilla Glue, as well as the face of the horizontal members to the verticals. Foam will be going up against the hull, topped with (probably) 1/4" ply and a layer of glass (might do just glass though). The compartment walls will be bonded to the hull, the foam will go around them.

Unlike Brave Heart (I noticed that too), I am going to have a light colored interior. Also, I don't think the butt joins will be as noticeable. I wonder what wood they used...

Re: aft head - it worked, and is eminently do-able (Go, Franky!) (No pun intended :D), but I am not doing it. The head will be in the forward part of the boat, I have not decided just where or how or whether to stay with a porta potty or a bucket or a composting system of some kind. Pics of what I am going to try to do WRT the head will be up in a few days, I think. I first had to build in the area.

Re: sleeping - having gone full circle and then some trying different arrangements :), sleeping accommodations will be thus: big bed in the v-berth, convertible athwartships sea/company berth in the saloon. That's where I am bunking while working up front, although as you can see in the pic below, I can start sleeping forward to port tonight. :)

Saloon will have the galley-stuff aft, and two small setees (just large enough to seat 2 folks who get along well side-by-side) between the 'galley' and drawers/cabinets which will be up against the main bulkhead, on it's after side (like the OEM drawers). These will convert to the athwartship single sea berth.

I'll write up a comprehensive list of the myriad different ways I configured things belowdecks, along with what worked or didn't, how's and why's, and the reasoning behind why I have ultimately gone with this arrangement. I'll post here when that is done. It won't be getting finished quickly, though - the past 4 years have seen many changes and different arrangements, as you all can attest to from the partial list of same I have shown here from time to time. :)

epiphany

05-28-2009, 10:18 AM

PS - Yes, I am still recycling old parts that were long since removed from their original locations. :D The plywood on top of the berth is just a temporary solution. Ultimately, there will be separate access to each individual compartment.

Tony G

09-01-2009, 11:29 AM

Captain K

Your sandwich panels keep haunting me. Not in a bad way from your perspective, but in so much as I have this 'overweight' fear stemming from all of the baltic birch I used in my remodel. early on I hedged my bets for strength rather than weight. As time progressed and things continually evolve I sometimes fear the cumulative weight of all the built-ins will have a negative impact on trim, speed and carrying capacity of stores.

So now I'm seriously considering how I should approach the 'revamping' of my remodel. I will be looking at where we can use some sandwich panels to lighten things up a bit. Because there are so few remaining bulkheads and dividers left to go in it will be a challenge. So in your spare time maybe you could peruse the photos of 113's interior and offer up some suggestions:o.

But! I did manage to find some photos of panels made for use in Baltic Yachts. You know by now that I'm a picture kind of guy.

epiphany

06-05-2010, 08:42 AM

Here are some pics of what I came up with for a cheap alternative to those overly-expensive composting heads. I have been using this for several weeks now, and have been very pleased with the result. Works great, and is dirt cheap (no pun intended ;) ). More details @ a thread I started on sailFar (http://sailfar.net/forum/index.php/topic,2936.0.html) to describe it.

Tony - wow, that foam ply construct is just what I was thinking. I don't think I'll have time/money to implement it, but - great illustration, glad to know I'm not totally off base. :)

Ebb - I'll follow this post up with more of my external chainplate stuff; I don't want to hijack TonyG's thread (more than we did already... :D).

epiphany

06-05-2010, 08:47 AM

Both the 5 gal bucket and the coffee can sit recessed about 5-6" into the sole under the sink; the bucket is actually resting on the hull, the can is sitting on the lip of the cabin sole which projects aft under the sink-area sole.

The wooden structure surround is approx 15" square, 12" tall, there is 2' even of space above the seat.

Tony G

06-05-2010, 10:49 AM

Just gotta let you know how much I applaud you for taking the first step in the DIY composter here. Initially it seems like you are stepping out onto a highwire but realistically how could it be any worse than a wet-head gone wrong? As a matter of fact once you get past the 'I fear poo factor' it seems striaght forward.

There seems to be plenty of information on the web regarding DIY 'composting toilets' for land use. And they all tend to be larger and swankier than what is really practicle for our purpose. Even the 'off the grid' crowd seem to enjoy taking plenty of space.

Hats off and a dropped trou to you!!;) ;) ;)

P.s. I noticed the now idle porta-potie in one of your earlier photos. I wonder if they would make a suitable platform to build the top half of a composter without too much work.

ebb

06-06-2010, 07:35 AM

5 gal pail, one funnel, one bottle.
I also applaud your formula!
Equal in its simplicity (and importance!) to the equation above!

As to the cedar herreschoff bucket post on your websight,
it does seem possible to line your boxframe inside with tennessee closet lining.
Here's to many successful downloads.;)

epiphany

06-06-2010, 09:31 AM

Tony, I thought of adapting the porta potty seat in some way, but after mulling it over, decided to forget it as it would have been much more work, for a less comfortable seat. :D

Re: those IP pics: Cool!!! Pics which show just what I was talking about with the IP chainplates...

Here's my extra chainplate explanation:

Ebb, everything in this pic is plastic and glass, no metals at all:
6706 (<--- also at bottom of this post, attached to Tony before)

A bolt will come through the hole in the middle, from outside, that holds the chainplate. It'll have a big ol' washer or two on it, and a nut holding the whole assembly in place. The FRP thingamajigger is purely there to spread the load from that bolt coming thru the hull; to change it from a point load of vertical shear in one small location, by spreading the stress down and out onto a large area of the hull.

There will likely be two 1/4" layers of solid FRP located on the inside of the hull at each chainplate, one layer against the hull basically the same size as the chainplate, and then a row of these tabular things bonded to that which will help the FRP rope grip against the shear via a wider radius than if it simply wrapped over a bolt.

Put in the big piece against the hull, attach the smaller tabs, fair it all in with resin thickened w/colloidal so that the rope over the tabs has nice straight runs down onto the hull. Use that rope to spread the vertical shear stresses out over several square feet of hull surface, instead of just right there at the 'plates.

Here's a visual attempt at explanation:

6712

Do dat make mo sense?

Tony G

06-07-2010, 10:10 AM

Ahhhh. I can see clearly now my brain is gone....

Dang, Kurt you keep raising the bar! I am confidently hoping that the laminating schedule I used when tabbing in the aft lower chainplate knees and the main bulkhead did add enough beef to keep the bolt shafts of the external chainplates from 'egging' the bolt holes in the hull. I put down stitched matting, fabric, matting, roving, topped with matting again. I added 1/4" - 3/8" to the hull via the tabbing. I really like your approach but I am not taking out the main bulkhead so half of the fibergalss 'rope' would have to make a 90 and spread onto the bulkhead (and aft CP knee if I didn't remove 'em)
Does anyone here have any bad experiences with other boats and external chainplates?

epiphany

07-01-2010, 07:43 AM

Yee-ha! The tabernacle is finished...

Below are some pics. As it stands now, it is ~18" tall, and 24" across the base (the base plate is 4" in the fore-aft dimension). I had it made to where I can put the pivot bolt as low as 14" (we'll see about that when I work with it some more). Most of the base will be under glass when I'm done mounting it, there will be no direct connection thru the deck to the strongback underneath, the whole area will be solid FRP(no core).

I'd never intended to use it much as a tabernacle per se; the reasoning for it was that 1) I wanted to have a VERY secure connection of the mast base to the deck, and 2) to spread the transfer of compression loads onto the under-deck support structure across as large an area as possible.

For reference, if you look back at the images of the internal/underdeck strongback structure, the diagonal arms of the tabernacle line up directly over the vertical supports of the strongback structure, and the tabernacle verticals fall just inside of the gussets between the horizontal beam of the strongback and the vertical supports of same.

That said, with the extra-warm summer we are having and the prediction of an overactive tropical storm season, the ability to drop the mast in my slip and head upriver underneath the 29' vertical clearance bridge next to my marina might just come in handy when ('if at all, and let's hope not', I pray) a whirly-girl comes to visit...

6762

6763

6765

6764

6766

epiphany

07-01-2010, 07:47 AM

Here's the strongback, easier to see than looking back...

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=5219&stc=1&d=1223664025

ebb

07-01-2010, 08:22 AM

That's thinking outside the box if not the TUBE!
Nice pattern tube - haven't seen it before.

Couple things: you know it's dangerous to cover stainless with plastic,
salt water will get in where you terminate the encapsulation.
MAYBE cleaner install can be cap screwing - through the deck - into the tube strongback inside.
Or even through bolting the tab, through the whole strongback tube using tube liners for the bolts as one does when thru bolting a mast - a avoid caving in the sides.
Any future leaks will be a heads-up that maintenance is in order!

The other thought is
that when you see European tabernacles they often hinge the mast at the top of the
tabernacle. This may allow AFT lowering visavis over your dodger to a boom gallows eg. Or if FORWARD lowering the mast won't be at a crazy angle visavis the the pulpit where it has to rest.

I'd guess that the mast at an upward angle on the pulpit will create some strong leverage on the pulpit and at the bolt end as well.
A lower angle of the mast when down will make unhinging the mast easier because the mast will be more level. Also reattaching the mast - as the mast's fulcrum is the pulpit - where the mast is 2/3s outboard - it's heavily weighted to falling further over the bow.

With a tall tabernacle aft lowering is preferred I think,
as more of the mast is inboard when lowering and when resting on a much more substantial gallows.

Interesting to see what you come up with!
Certainly not going to have any compression issues ever again!!!
Good tabernakling !

c_amos

07-01-2010, 08:25 AM

WOw!

That is certainly a 'sporty' deck support. Like a compression post on steroids! I should think that if a bridge should come down on such a set up that you will have some liability for the repair of the bridge!

How does that 'feel' below decks? I know you were going for the modern 'open' floor plan... that is a pretty significant piece of hardware, does it still leave the cabin feeling open?

I really like the tabernacle. It is exactly what I was trying to describe, except I was picturing plates on the sides rather then the tube. I think yours is much stronger. I am sure that is what you were describing to me when I was there a couple weeks ago... I was just too dense to visualize it.

What plans do you have to seal the top of the open tubes? I am sure the tube design is going to be much stronger then plates, but they would not likely stay that way if they were to collect water all the time (or is that the design, with a pipe going to the water tank?) :)

Also, how do you intend to capture the mast 'shoe' at the bottom? Will it just sit on the plate, or is there some kind of receptacle that you picture?

Finally (for some more unsolicited input)... I would suggest through bolting the tabernacle, and having it sit on a built up platform rather then encasing it in fiberglass... even the stainless is going to corrode if it is denied access to the air (and it's right to 'sluf off' electrons as it would will so as to maintain it's 'stainless-ness')....

Beautiful work there Captain! I look forward to seeing it installed!

epiphany

07-01-2010, 08:31 AM

Ahoy dere, Ebb -

Thanks for letting me see what to clarify!

The tabernacle material is aluminum (the type used in making those really tall tuna towers for sport fisherman), and tho' I didn't make it clear, the hinge/pivot will be above the diagonals, somewhere between 14-18" off the deck, and I intend for the mast to lower towards the stern.

That's the reason for the height - eventually Katie will sport some kind of dodger, so I was going for as much clearance as possible while hoping to keep it looking no too ungainly. :)

epiphany

07-01-2010, 08:44 AM

Craig -

She feels plenty open - the pic might be misleading in its blurriness and perspective... The tubing for the strongback is 2" thickwall AL, the plate material is 1/4" thick.

Gonna seal the tubes somehow, haven't figgered that all the way out. Would like the caps removable, and also plan some tiny drain holes at bottom of the tubes...

All of this is aluminum, with the possible exception of the thru-bolts (and if I can use Al there, I will...). I want no galvanization if at all possible between the tabernacle and the mast. WRT strength of Al for this component, the tabernacle is built of hefty-enough tubing that it weighs about 7-8 pounds (scientifically tested by lifting it, then a 10# barbell to compare ;) ).

Mast foot/shoe fitting - Still in the planning stage, likely to be built of composite to a tight fit. Gotta let the brain churn on it for a few days, now that I have tabernacle in-hand to see what exactly I am dealing with. :)

Tony G

07-02-2010, 08:54 AM

How does that 'feel' below decks? I know you were going for the modern 'open' floor plan... that is a pretty significant piece of hardware, does it still leave the cabin feeling open?

Beautiful work there Captain! I look forward to seeing it installed!

Here! Here!

I admit it....I am insanely jealous! That open cabin is perfect for a boat this size and just what I really, really wanted. Oh well. Once again I live vicariously through Kurt.

Kurt, WRTyour mast support set up, is there a flat bar on top of the 'horizontal' tubing? If it is I completely missed that in your earlier photos. And believe you me, I looked at them tons of times! For some reason I too thought everything there was stainless and often wondered how you could have that much moolah and still be in port.:confused: That just didn't jive.

epiphany

07-02-2010, 09:35 AM

LOL, Tony. :)

Nope - no stainless, all Aluminum. The internal piece cost me $300, the tabernacle only $120. I could have probably gotten the internal piece a bit cheaper, but made the mistake of mentioning that that amount was the most I wanted to pay...

Don't tell the fox where you hid yer chickens, ya know?

Thereafter ever aware of those consequences, I drove a harder bargain for the tabernacle. ;)

There is a flat bar on top of the internal structure. I figured it would add more bearing surface, and be easier to 'mate' to the overhead that way instead of to the tubing.

epiphany

07-11-2010, 01:47 PM

Cut thru the deck today, and trimmed back the cabin liner from where the bearing surface will be. Figure to do the glasswork below first; there is only 1 thin layer of glass on the overhead now, so by doing it this way (bottom first) I think I can re-induce the original curvature in the cabin top. It had depressed about 1/4" with the OEM structure.

So, pics...

First, Katies new dinghy...
6808

The area of deck to cut away - added about 1" all around the tabernacle base. Cut on the red line with the SoniCrafter tool, using the half-circle blade. Hey Tony - see how close I was to the hinges? Maybe 1/2". I have even more aprreciation for this tool after today - more on that in a bit.

6809

Outline cut, & first try at top skin removal. I was really hoping I could manage to peel up this whole piece and then re-use it elsewhere, but the 40 year old FRP was just too tenacious. I wound up cutting with the tool and fighting to get this little piece off. Going from this point, ripping about 1/3 of the skin off, it came off very irregularly, tapering up from the edge to just a last, 1 thin layer of glass at the end. Hmmm...

6810

Broke out the SoniCrafter, and BAM. Perfect tool for this. Use plunge blade, Insert into core, cutting that free all the way across, then cut across the skin at about the point which would have been maximum plunge, and you get nice clean blocks of skin and core.

6811

A 6"x2.5" block takes maybe 1.5 minutes to remove, and the surface underneath you can almost eat off of. You can use the blade to clean off the underskin.

6812

More coming...

epiphany

07-11-2010, 01:55 PM

This shows the first area - where you can see ripped mat at the lower part of the pic, from me pulling the skin off of the core (or trying to, at least). Contrast that with the SonicRafted area in the upper part of the pic, and you can see the improvement.

6813

An example of a cut block using the tool. This was one of the first, they got even cleaner.

6814

A couple pics of the tabernacle sitting in the deck hole....

6815

6816

The deck hole itself, in all its glory...

6817

1 more coming...

epiphany

07-11-2010, 01:59 PM

Last for now, these 3 pics show the strongback against the overhead, where the light is shining thru the 1 layer of skin left there.

6820

6819

6818

ebb

10-25-2010, 07:21 AM

[I asked Bill. Got the idea that Kurt removed them !]

I sometimes hit the blue line on the Discussion menu that says who's on line.
A 'guest' was logged on here.
When we log on cold we are directed to the beginning pages.
All of your earLy photos are replaced with a little red X.

Last page at the moment has your mast-step surgery into the cabin top.
Quality shots of quality work taking the mystery out for anybody needing a fix in this area
(which is probably nearly everybody.)
who hasn't thought they could do it - until now.
Important shots imco.

Kurt, I hope you post the conclusion of the repair.
And show us more or your intriguing and innovative

ALUMINUM TABERNAKLE in place.
How you attach the unit.

The mast in place.
AND HOW YOU RAISE AND LOWER YOUR MAST!

'I really wanna know"

epiphany

10-31-2010, 04:34 PM

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa...

A lot of those pictures were on my old, now-defunct 'liquid-epiphany.com' website. Posted 'em there, with the good intention to save some bandwidth for *this* site/Bills wallet. Best laid plans, gone awry - as is not too uncommon... :/ I still have the pics, around somewhere, probably in several places. Which ones in particular were you looking for, Ebb? I could start by taking requests... ;)

Attached are some pics of the beginning of the under-deck strongback area work I'm doing. Started by wrapping the aluminium strongback with plastic wrap to keep epoxy from sticking. Then cut lots and lots of strips of glass cloth, 2.5" wide or so. Between the flat top of the strongback and the curved overhead, were gaps approaching 3/8" at the widest (mid-point of the 3 flat areas across the top. Also, the gap is wider at the after edge, by about double of the front. After much thought and consternation and constipation and, well, delay :rolleyes: I am just cramming glass up there until the gaps get closed with a solid layer of cloth. The last layer will get plastic wrap over the top to avoid it sticking to the under-deck skin. At that point, I'll do some cleaning up of this basic structure, grinding edges to make them purtier and fit better, basically get it 95% done, then apply it to the overhead, perhaps with a last layer or two of cloth for that last lil bit...

On to the pics...

This is detail of the top of the strongback, you can see the flatness...

7040

Here's what it looked like after the first layer of goo was on, I started pulling plastic and then thought "Oops, pics...", so replaced it somewhat for this shot..

7041

And here you can see that the new structure base has conformed to the top of the strongback - 3 same reflections, 1 for each plane. After this pic, I re-wrapped the strongback, and replaced this structure there as it was still a bit 'green' and flexible, so that it will harden to the true shape. You'll note some dry spots in the fabric - my resin was *cooking*, and I had to rush a bit more than I would have liked, to get things into thin layers so it wouldn't be shot too fast/hard. Good thing is that I will be able to wet that out easily later on...

7042

epiphany

10-31-2010, 04:40 PM

These three show the above in place.

I've begun on the outside part as well, filling in the deck hole with cloth. Going to attempt to get that near-done tomorrow. Will post pics of progress.

7043

7044

7045

epiphany

10-31-2010, 05:08 PM

Re: tabernacle... I *think* I have it figured out at last. I will cut the 2 nubs off of the mast foot (the nubs which sat in the plywood slot) so that I have a nice, flat bearing surface when the stick is up. I do not want the thru-bolt pivot to bear any of the weight of the mast. Thing is, when the mast rotates into position (I am planning on having it lay down aft), if it were to wind up where it was then sitting on the tabernacle base, is that the after portion of the mast and foot would have to be shaved off so that it will clear the base portion as it rotates into place. The after corner at the bottom of the mast would have to be rounded off. Rounding that corner will take away from the bearing surface I want. This is the Catch 22, that has stymied me for a couple of months...

One idea of many considered (and then rejected) was to make an oblong hole in the mast for the thru-bolt that the mast would rotate on, large enough to accommodate the corner clearance needed. Then, the mast would have to be pulled aft and up, for the last couple of inches of raising, to get the corner past, before it settled down on the foot. Doesn't sound like an easy thing to do, with a 35' long pole that weighs in excess of 100#'s. :)

What I've settled on is to use 2 shims. The mast will rotate up into place, 'hovering' on the pivot bolt, just far enough off of the tabernacle base so that that after corner has clearance when it rotates into place. Now, imagine a rectangle, the base plate, which is as wide as the space between the tabernacle legs, a bit longer than the mast in the fore-n-aft dimension, and just a smidge taller, maybe as much as 1/4", than the space between the mast foot bearing surface, and the tabernacle base below.

Take that rectangle, looking at the edge, and slice it on a slope into 2 pieces. Slice it so that if it is sitting on deck, the slice slopes from the upper aft corner, down to the front lower corner. Result: 2 wedges.

Once the mast is up, slide the lower piece, which will slope down and forward on top, into place on the tabernacle base. Then insert the top piece, wedging it back and up-slope on the bottom piece, until it takes up the weight of the mast. Secure it into place, and problem solved (I think...).

Re: mast raising... I've seen an idea where a fellow took a piece of chain on each side of the mast at deck edge, attached it to the deck at the ends, with enough slack so that when it was picked up in line with the tabernacle pivot, a particular link lined right up with that pivot point. From there, on each side of the mast, you lead a line up to the spreader bases, and make it off. Voila - legs. Then you can use tackle and a gin pole on the front of the mast, and hoist away. The legs will keep the mast centered until it is up and you can attach shrouds. I will probably also make a line off to the tabernacle base, aft, to take some of the kick-out load that will be there early on in the raise.