The album of Ariel #422

[CapnK]

Last for today, the CrewDogs are getting older, and getting them down into the cabin during the cold winter months has always been, well, interesting. :)

Molly is pretty fearless and will jump down, but she is almost 11 now, and I don't want to put that sort of stress on her old bones any longer. Buffett has to be 'persuaded' or brought down by hand - 55 lbs of wiggly furry mutt. :)

So this year they get their own accommodations, out in the cockpit. A cheap tent from WalMart with floor dimensions of 5'x6' fits the area pretty well. I am going to make an extension tube or something that will allow a good tight fit against the companionway from that side of the tent, allowing both me access to the boat, and hot air into the tent. I'll insulate it somehow.- am thinking of some batting material sewn between thin nylon that will basically blanket the tent. Will tackle that project down the road a bit, when nighttime temps start down below 40 or so...

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[ebb]

Kurt,
Looking good!
I hope you are beveling the perimeter of the old deck to mate with the new fiberglass you are putting in?
Can't tell from the photos.


Maybe you can rig an easy on/easy off sling for your mates
and use the Garhauer derrick to safely transport them?

[CapnK]

As much as possible, ebb. Don't have room (between cabin trunk up-step and aft edge of fore hatch) for a proper 12:1 taper, so am just going with as much as I can get. :)

LOL @ the derrick suggestion. ;D A good idea!

Yet keeping them up in the cockpit *might* (and I stress that word for a reason known to dog owners...) keep the fur amount inside the boat down somewhat... (I wish!).

[c_amos]

Kurt,

It will be good to know that falling bridges, crashing planes, and the occasional meteor will pose no threat to the crew of the good ship Katie Marie!

Peter will be jealous when he sees the crew dogs new diggs!

A couple is buying Dennis' Flicka (the one that has been sitting in my back yard)... the selling point was not the brand new Yanmar, or the bronze ports from New foundmetals.... no, it was the great companionway entrance angle for their dogs...

[CapnK]

It is, indeed, a dogs world... ;D

[Tony G]

It is, indeed, a dogs world... ;D
That's a good looking crew there, Capt. K. And you are a great man to care for them and afford them the lifestyle most any dog would like. I bet they are the ice breaker and the talk of the dock as well as a hell of a pair of priceless companions.

Oh yeah, it's good to see your work on KM too. I really like the view from your work space.

[CapnK]

They are indeed the best of companions. :)

We are fixing to be 2 CrewDawgs with only 7 legs between 'em, though. Buffett has a tumor on his leg that has come back after being removed, and so it looks like he will be becoming a "tripawd" soon. Maybe as early as next week. While building up the 'amputation kitty', I am doing some research to make sure that this will be the best thing for him, and the doc wants to check a biopsy before making a final call. It sucks, but there are lots of dogs out there who live their lives with only 3 feet on the ground, so we are hoping for the best. :)

[mbd]

Poor guy - we're ALL hoping for the best Kurt! Even if it has to happen, Buffet still surely has a better quality of life than most dogs I know...

On a related but similar topic, I wonder if dog fur has any redeeming qualities when mixed with epoxy? :)

[CapnK]

Touching base, after a hiatus from any major work on the boat... have simply been living with what I've done for the last year or so... and loving it from a 'workability' standpoint.

First, wrapping up the above posts - Crewdog Buffett is getting along fine on 3 legs, for about 1.5 years now. I refer to him as my "3/4's of a dog". :) Alas, Crewdog Molly departed for far shores earlier last month. :( She is and will be missed, and was a valued member of ship and crew, doing much over the years to keep the captains morale above water...

WRT Katie Marie - I built what I've been calling a "U-berth". It is athwartships under the companionway, a bit wider (in fore n aft dimension) than the original countertop at present. It extends forward a little bit on each side as well, creating a shallow U-shaped settee area - large enogh for 4 average sized people to sit in close companionship. The legs of this U allow for one to lie along the axis of the boat when underway and heeled a la quarter berth; lee cloths will be available. Will be extending bridgedeck aft/shortening cockpit footwell approx 18", (re)installing aft bulkhead at that point, which will also be rear of the main berth (think "cave") and cabin.

Installed a telescoping stainless ladder (swim ladder from ski boat) at companionway. The bottom of it when in 'ladder mode' is at the forward edge of the berth below. When one goes belowdecks, it 'disappears' by either collapsing and flipping it up next to companionway boards, or tucking it back under bridgedeck at about a 45 degree angle. This has 'created' a lot of available space in the cabin.

With the U-berth being under the companionway, eventually I'll be creating a weather cloth for the area - a removable, quick-attach system of waterproof cloth that will drop from overhead, down around the extended ladder and back up to overhead on the other side, creating a chute of sorts to keep windblown water from being able to land right on the berth when entering/exiting the cabin.

The 'galley' area is just forward of the berth/settee, there will be a 2 burner propane stove/oven to strbd just aft main bulkhead, Engel freezer/fridge to port, along with cabinetry. Thinking really hard on installing a small solid fuel heater like the Tiny Tot (http://www.fatscostoves.com/). Forward of the main bulkhead will be a head compartment and additional stowage, much along the lines of the CD25D layout.

All in all it is a very open layout that creates a space which seems larger than it is. Had a gal aboard for a week+ this summer, and living in the space with another person was no problem at all. It was much better and more 'user friendly' than the previous year, when/with the main berth being forward... The U-berth/settee arrangement also makes it better when casual company stops by for a toddy or a chat.

[mbd]

I'm very sorry to hear about your crew mates, and I'm sure there's an emptiness for you and Buffet both. But it is good you still have each other. If there is a heaven, you can bet our former companions will be there to greet us with lots of wags and licks.

We've been missing your updates around here. Your mods are sounding really intriguing, and I really like that you put them to the "livability" test every day. I must confess, however, in reading your above post, my eyes started glazing over with so many words and so few pics...

[CapnK]

Hi Mike! Hope things are going well for you up in the far North... :) I'd guess you were far enough N that Sandy didn't affect you too much, eh?

Re: pics - I'll get some soon. After ~2 years of living aboard at the dock since she was last in 'fighting shape', accretion set in and a bunch of crap piled up hither and yon in stowage areas throughout the boat... :rolleyes:

So I'm in the process of clearing away the cruft in order that I have room to work; once that is done I'll try and 'doll her up' enough that pics won't be embarrassing... :D ...and then I'll post some so you can have a better idea of what the above mumbojumbo translates into.

[ebb]

Kurt,
Happy you've surfaced again on this thread, it's been a year!

I've been looking at my tabernackle project recently. Have a Bomar forehatch now with a nicro saucer vent in the middle.
Mast is going to roll forward when lowering and rest somehow in the pulpit. Have to raise my tab/base to about 4.5" so as to not crunch the vent.
I already cut the foot of the mast to the roll profile before painting it. Now I discover I have to recut two inches shorter and do the roll cutout again.

This means that I have to build UP the mast base onto something strong, load spreading but not cumbersome - that works with the compression load beam inside.

While I was fooling around with mockups to bring down to the boat for fitting,
got to thinking, that while the mast is under good control using the Bingham 'masting' model and Ballenger's single bolt in a SLOT tabernackle,
there are FORE & AFT forces that come into play when the mast is lowered under tension and pulled back up.
The base has strong forces working on it when the mast is moved.

When the mast is loose everything depends on bridle, backstay/boom, upper shroud, ropes and wires, winches and connections to keep it under control. As the stick is lowered, a lever force comes into play from the angling mast. Imco there is AFT pressure on the tabernacle. Just think what would happen if the hinge bolt came out while lowering the stick - see mast drill into the doghouse.
maybe not, but see mast wanting to shoot aft anywhich way it can. That pressure is all there when the mast is lowered under control.

Also trying to get a mental on how much fun it's going to be when decommishioning to get the mast loosened from the hinge bolt. There'll be a bit of wrassling with the cantilevered spar while attempting to keep it under control. See chaos in this. The tabernackle needs to be as immovable as a rock. In all directions. Including UP.

My riser hump is basically flat topped for the tab hinge plate footprint - with athwartship sloping sides. The hinge plate is predrilled for 5/16" flatheads that don't match the beam inside. Because the mast's real estate is a very short distance between the hatch cover and the nose of the doghouse the riser hump model just fits vertically front & back. To say that there is very little space for fore&aft bracing for any mast tabernackling hardware.
Should the plate be thru-bolted? Or lagged. The arguement for lagging is that if the mast in a blow decides to come down on its own, it may be wise to let the thing tear the immediate base off - rather than tear a hole in the deck, if it's all bolted together. Still in the hemhaw stage.:confused:

Am worried that a tall tubernackle will experience unfair bending forces when raising and lowering - unless braced.
Looking at the last photo in the series at post #243, imagine a double tube extension coming from the upright toward the doghose nose and at about that level. Couple of pins, to lock the tubernackle straight. Maybe a single tube brace is clipped on the mast and hinges from the top of the tube-horns to hook onto the doghouse.....?....

Holes in the old mast should be controlled so wear and corriosion are minimized. An accomodating slot is better in a support structure, which can be altered & changed as wanted. Just my opinions.

[Tony G]

Kurt!
Good to hear from you again. We've been wondering.. Sounds like your interior has been working out great for you. That open design really makes a ton of sense, and makes me wish I had never put the main bulkhead back in 113. So, when you're not underway can the u-berth be made into one giant berth? Call it a conversation pit, or, playpen depending on the guest. Keeping the area dry and clean would seem to be a challenge, but man, it would be nice to just flop down and read, watch a video or whatever. Like an even more relaxed version of Ebb's easy chair. At anchor under the summer awning would be easy enough to keep the water out. How about under way? Have you given any more thought to the inflatable dodger frame? Maybe a bimini? I sure hope you chronicle the conversion of Katie Marie's footwell as that is an idea I keep entertaining.

Yah, pictures get a nod. Big time. And accretion has got to be way better than secretion!
Thanks for the update.

[CapnK]

Howdy, fellas! :cool: Back from another hiatus, since I hadn't been doing much on the boat, there hasn't been much to post, but now with warmer weather that's a changing.

Here's some Ariel bits you probably haven't seen like this before. ;) It's the first part of the process of expanding the cabin back a bit under the bridgedeck, about 14", for the big berth. I've some other pics of the process, but not handy right now, so these will have to do. Last week I pulled the cockpit drain tubes from their thru-hulls and stoppered them up. Figured out the best way to do this while in the water was to cut white EPS (styrofoam) into plugs about 1/4" larger diameter than the thru-hull holes, mist them with water then smear Gorilla Glue on them, wait about 2-3 minutes then pull the tubes and shove the plugs down in. I knew from experiements a few years ago that the GG would foam up when treated like this, and it worked a charm. I shoved the plugs down far enough that there was an inch or so of space on top, and into that area I stuffed some epoxy putty, the 2-part 'stick' kind, keeping an eye on it while it kicked so that I could cover any leaky bits. Once I had all three holes done (drains + sink drain hole), I gave them a good covering of Great Stuff expanding foam, just as a little extra protection. Not a bit of leakage since.

So today I cut out the front end of the cockpit, a bit more of the ex-aft bulkhead, and the pegboard in the area where the footwell no longer exists. This week I'll be re-glassing over the hole, creating the new bulkhead there at the forward locker drains, and starting in on the berth base.

[CapnK]

Also, after I last posted, Mr. Buffett lived on for another 4+ months before the cancer really took hold and I could tell it was affecting him to the point of pain perhaps. Hard, hard thing to do, taking my buddy in that day to have him put to rest, still makes me teary to think of it, but I knew it was the best thing I could do for him...

So I was CrewDog-free for the first time in many years. Occasionally over the next few months I would go to the local no-kill shelter and walk miscellaneous dogs when I really needed a fix. Then in late November or so I started thinking I might 'foster' a pup, give one a temporary home so it didn't have to stay in that doggy jail. After a couple of weeks pondering, I decided to give it a try.

Well, within about 2 hours after I busted him out to come home, I decided that this one was a keeper.

:cool:

So, meet ensign "Barque Whitepaws" - Katie's new CrewDog, since December. He *loves* her - & I think the feeling is mutual. :D He's a bit damp in this picture, from his first bath.

[Tony G]

Your plans sound like a great reno idea for a live aboard, sail away cruiser. That layout makes good sense for use of the limted space we have below. I've been waiting a looong time to see these changes to Katie Marie come about. But I fully understand how everything else seems to get a free pass to the front of the line relative to some of things we really want to do.
It looks as though Barque clearly understands. Lucky dog.

[CapnK]

I've been waiting a looong time to see these changes to Katie Marie come about.

Me too! :D

Thanks, Tony. She'll not be anything too fancy when I am done, but she will be plenty capable. My goal is to get her back to stick-up and sailing before July - which does not equate to finished but will still be a big milestone. I can't wait to feel the press of her sails again, and then go somewhere for a night or two away from this dock... :)

[mbd]

... So today I cut out the front end of the cockpit...
While the rest of us just complain about the cabin being too small...

PS. Barque knew an easy mark when he saw one!

[CapnK]

LOL, Mike :) I made a concession only cutting away as much as I did - initially I was going to take it back another 6" or so, but that would've involved the lockers and locker drains and such, so I am holding it just forward of there for 'testing'. Initial impression is that it is enough, interior-wise. Half of this project though is that I wanted less area in the footwell, a good seaworthy attribute, and one which I'd bet the Old Swede would have made himself, had he not had to bow to consumer requirements to "Sail 6, dine and sleep 4". ;)

Here's a shot showing the hole getting filled back in. How exciting! ;)

BTW - The gray stuff all over the place is high build primer, a somewhat-failed and thus far abandoned attempt to fill in all that crazy gelcoat crazing. :)

[CapnK]

I am going to go find a large slab of ironwood, of a size suitable for making a club. When I do, and have finished making my club, I am going to go find and beat senseless in this order:

1) the person responsible for designing these cabin trunk deadlight frames, and

2) the last person who installed them on this boat.

I will then pile them one of top of the other, and use person #2's inexhaustible supply of silicone caulk to make these two cretins unable to cause further harm to anyone in the human race by designing such torture instruments, or by gooping them up so much.

There's got to be a better way. I am going to find it, and implement it, and forever relax afterwards...

[ebb]

KURT,
A 600 page bible I read a few pages of every morning is
SURVIVOR by a cruiser: Michael Greenwald.
The volume is about everything survival.
You should hear what he has to say about life rafts and their manufacturers.
You know: criminally stupid, un compassionate, leaky life saving tubes made for profit.
The book is armed with a large print club by Joseph Conrad:

I HAVE KNOWN THE SEA TOO LONG TO BELIEVE IN ITS RESPECT FOR DECENCY.

Here's an eye-opening verse on raw survival reality that might relate to our former protagonists.

"When a bird is caught, pull its head off and drink the blood.
Skin, rather than feather it and suck the inside of the skin for fat.
Save an assortment of feathers and the feet to make lures.
Suck the eyeballs for liquid.
Eat the liver and organs first. Crack the skull to get at the brain.
Sea bird flesh often tastes of fish but is completely edible.
Since sea birds eat fish which eat phosphorescent plankton,
the bird's flesh often glows at night.
This does not mean that glowing birds or fish are inedible."

In terms of the Pearson cousins who pulled off a buck for profit with an idiotic port light design,
or the numbnut who slathered evil silicon all over his (now your) gelcoat,
40 whacks with an ironwoodie might be satisfactory. MAYBE! :D

[Tony G]

Hey, Kurt
What was you plans had the original portlites been to your liking? A re-goober and reinstall operation? it seems like a pretty standard upgrade to ports of similar design as ours to "bolt" on lites to the outside of the cabin. Aussie Geoff's UHURU comes to mind as well as Yves Jean du Sud. It is pretty easy to shim an even gap between the cabin liner and cabin and then back fill the gap with thickened epoxy to strengthen the whole area. The solid region takes a bolt well. I even went so far as to thread the holes which allowed me to bury the bolt heads leaving only the threaded section to capture the lites with cap nuts with a 1/2" reach. What are your plans? Spill the beans.

[CapnK]

Ebb - I completely concur with Conrad's comment! It is amazing to think that these deadlights would only be held against an inrush of a determined sea by (from what I see with mine) approx 1/4" of 40 year old cast aluminum there around the perimeter of those large holes in the house...

and...

Tony - I had already had an idea that I would like to 'shore up these defenses' in some manner, yours and Uhuru's and others method seemed a most practical solution, taking into account strength and time spent doing the job and all.

But...

Having the 'glass' out for a couple of days really made me come to appreciate where I did not before the extra ventilation such can provide. I had thought that it would make little difference in a cabin so small, but was mightily surprised. It is akin to the difference of (w/sealed lights) being in a room of a house, and (when opening) being out on the screened-in porch. More to come on that in a bit.

About this job: Best I can figure, it took me on average probably 3.5 hours per each to pull them, clean them of goo, re-polish the Lexan, and return them into position on the house. As is normal, the first took much longer than did the last, as I refined my "system" for cleaning and scraping of the old goo - that being to most of the work.

What I found works best is to use a single-edged razor blade type paint scraper to slice off as much of the silicone as could be done fairly quickly. Running it across the middle 'flat' area peeled off a good bit quickly, then using it on edge to get into the corners and release the hold of the silicone there, which was a bit more painstaking but faster than other things I tried. Once I had removed as much silicone as possible with this scraper, I used a wire-wheel on my drill to get most of the rest of the stuff off the frame. My last port took probably 1/3 the time it took me on the first, say a tiny bit under 90 minutes to remove the silicone.

I used a high speed grinder with buffer pad to polish the Lexan, it being the key element to my results. 10K RPM's or so, IIRC - it is for automotive finish work, I used to use it to polish up the gloss coat of resin on surfboards, and must be used with care because it _will_ sling your work if too much pressure gets applied. :) I had some of the recommended "Novus" plastic polishing product, yet found that both normal red-bottle paint rubbing compound and 3M's 'Fiberglass Cleaner and Wax' product worked pretty much as well as the high-dollar, Lexan specific product. Two passes each side with successively finer polish put an almost scratch-free finish on this 10+ year old Lexan in about 20 minutes per pane. Interior UV damage ('crazing') is still visible when seen with light coming straight through, but overall the end result is almost as good as new. See top pic below - that is looking out through 'bronze' tinted Lexan. As the outside had been literally worn down a paper-thickness or two from the years of manual polishing, I swapped the Lexan around, putting the formerly exterior side into the interior now, hoping that might make things slower to deteriorate for a while.

Instead of silicone, I used 3/16" adhesive-backed foam rubber weatherstripping to seal the deadlights. Not sure how well it would hold up at sea, it is mostly a stop-gap measure that does work statically, and can easily be removed if desired in the future. It required that I use longer thru-bolts than the original; while 3/4" would have worked, there were none in stock, so I used 1" instead, and a combination of cup washer and flat washer (see pic) to take up the extra length for a good seal.

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[CapnK]

So, for now at least, I have simply returned the deadlights in almost-original configuration. Yet I really liked having them able to open, so I have been thinking on how to implement that.

One consideration I have had always was that prior to going out to sea, I would like to have 'sea shutters' made and in-place; basically large 'covers' over the deadlights which were affixed to the house, providing a much smaller window area, and basically serving to keep serious impact from striking - and possibly pushing in - the entirety of these large holes in the house.

So I think I can make them opening for at-anchor, dock, or day sailing usage, while utilizing the sea shutter idea for offshore. Below are my first scribblings of ideas. I am trying to make it as simple as possible, considering amounts both work involved and finances. I would also like to retain as much as possible to original look of the boat.

First idea involves building a "lip" all around the deadlight area which would serve two purposes: to hang the needed hardware from, and to deflect water streaming across the deck/house sides so that it cannot directly strike the gasketed seal, forcing in water via 'normal' (ie not storm or big seas) pressures. The portlight would attach to the upper lip with hinges, and have hardware on the inside that would 'cam down' to seal the port shut against the gasket. The 'glass' would pivot out and up, preventing light rain from entering the cabin. The lip would have built-in threaded holes to allow affixing of the sea shutters.

The second idea (pics #2 & 3) illustrates the beginnings of a second solution, which would be to pivot the glass not from the top, but in the middle, the upper part swinging in, the lower out. It would pretty much have the same features as the first idea.

Still thinking on both of these...

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[ebb]

Kurt,
Interesting about our cabin ports is that all four are exactly the same dimension,
even reversed. So I'd put together one fullsized thinking model with cardboard and foam and try out those ideas.
Ebb went an entire different way, slabbbing-on the lexan sheet to use the cabin itself instead of framing to take the load of a green one.
Slabbing-on lights is only a good idea until a greeny comes aboard and tears them off. Frameless, the caulking is exposed.

My Bomar deck hatches depend on plain half-round foam gasket cinched under pressure to seal.
Maybe it works with heavy weight cast aluminum frames....but certainly a lot is asked of plain compressed foam.
I'd give any opening and any other foam caulk a cove or seat on both surfaces to squeeze tight into.
Or create right angles to make dams against sudden intrusion. Our tiny forward opening ports are gasketed right.

I did read once, from a source I could believe, that cabin windows are often ignored by seas crashing directly UP into them when the boat is heeled. The cabin in that position can easily flounder.
Which leads me to believe that nearly all openings should be sealable 360°.
I find that paranoia rather interesting!
But it leads me to suppose that huge lexan lights can actually have added opening ports right in the plastic.
Granted it's probably going to be much smaller openings.. when we could use a good breeze inside, but......

The cabin's skinny center divider between ports cannot stand alone. As designed, imco, its floppiness is one fatal flaw for windows leaking.
Has to be taken into account when remodeling.

How thick do traditional weather boards have to be? I think a lot lighter if Meranti ply is used. Can see 3/8" if the panels
are attached/placed in a way that a 60mph slab of water can't get a green fist underneath to yank it off.
Once played with the idea of top-down sliding panels into a ready groove....disguised as a frame...
Also wondered if samoied or sunbrella cloth could somehow be used. Double duty to also protect the lenses from UV when layed back or on a long tack in the Pacific. The cloth against a backup (the plastic light) isn't likely to pop or tear but instead slip the water by.

And also wondered if a drop in wood bar horizontally across the ports INSIDE the cabin will work.
That way nice carpentry prevails outside, and the strong steroid stuff waits to be used only when needed.
The U-shaped strong back holders might do double or triple duty for more mudane things?
I can still see doing this!

In the mid '50s, Miles and Beryl Smeeton, with John Guswell as crew, were attemping to round the Horn in the ketch TzuHang....
when they pitch-poled. When they....came back up.... the deck of the boat had been stripped clean as by a mower. Everything sliced away
including hatches, rudder, masts leveled to the deck, dog-house, compass, dinghy, anchor, cleats.

Just tossing some sticks on the fire...
Can't wait to see what you come up with......:cool:

[CapnK]

You've reminded me of something I'd forgotten to post. In reading prior to doing this job, I ran across an article where the author (a surveyor) pointed out that the reason for leakage over time was due to movement, by and large. Made me think that some sort of internal structural support would be a good idea to incorporate, and it could be aesthetic as well as functional - small shelf, a handhold/towel rack, etc... And I hadn't really thought of it in that way, but the "lip" in my first drawing would do the same, really stiffen up the structure, if constructed properly...

[ebb]

Kurt, Of course you do remember that the molded liner in the cabin and the cabin molding itself ....means that there is a space (approx 3/8- 1/2") between the two moldings. When the port lights are removed that's the space you see.
That space is just that: space. When the frames of the lights were screwed together with the 9 or 10 itsey-bitsey, teeny-weeny #4 machine screws...
those frames:
outside frame to inside frame tried (and Failed) to clamp the floating piece of glass that is the 'light' into something useful. The tiny screws cannot be tightened because they have no where to go. Besides clamping tighter wouldn't work anyway, because that would distort the cabin sides even more, and it didn't work anyway, ever. The something useful is really something shockingly stupid.
And selling these boats as "....Ocean Racer Cruisers":o

So your Dreaded Former Owner attempts to use Evil Silicone to stop leaks. Since the DFO is gone a little nuts with constant leaks....
he constantly slathers on more and more evil rubber, until he runs out of hope and money, and sells the boat.....

BUT the cabin moulding and the cabin liner are not connected...the liner is sort of suspended.... Just AIR IN THERE. A I R . You have to fill the space (part of it) with epoxy gel or something. Around the windows and wherever there are thru-fittings (hocky-pucks.)
That's what ebb did, and it's explained ad nauseum elsewhere in this forum.

If you are going to work on the cabin port lights you simply have to do something with that space.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
The inside cabin liner is connected to the boat squeezed between the strongback and cabin under the mast.
It runs along on both sides under the deck close and not connected, loose, to the bridgedeck where it is squeezed to the underside of the bridge
at the bulkhead. There may have been an attempt at the factory to glue the sides of the liner to the underside of the deck, but it was
failed on A338. All leaks thru fittings, mast, port lights ended on on the stringer shelves.... known as gutters by some. Pearson could only have planned for the the liner not to be sealed, otherwise it would have collected stagnant liquids and made the boat uninhabitable. Bad design.

[CapnK]

Wow - you only had #4's? Tiny indeed! Mine were (are) held together with #10's, at least. 9 of those, per deadlight. I wonder if they used smaller fittings on earlier boats, mine being near the end of the production run...?

What I noticed WRT the 'space between' on Katie is that it is easily closed at the bottom and most of the sides of the deadlight hole. At the top it's a different story, due to the curvature into the overhead. Top forward corner of the strbd forward deadlight, it cannot be brought together, the liner hole is cut wider than the doghouse hole. Likely stuff some epoxputty into there, everywhere else just gets bonded together with a bit of thickened epoxy and clamps.

What the Smeeton's and Guzwell pulled off down there in the deep SoPac, *that* is the embodiment of true seamanship to me. IIRC, Beryl was even swept overboard when that happened. Scary stuff! Good reading, though. :)

-----

Also, today I did a bit more interior aft bulkhead carving and have now extended the berth aft to the new forward footwell edge. Where I currently have the forward berth edge gives me a berth approx 80"x44", a "small double". Plenty of room to add in 10" more on the front for a "full double" size, but being solo at this time, I am opting for more footroom on the cabin sole. Plenty spacious for me and CrewDog Barque. :)

[ebb]

Kurt,
Said #4s, maybe I'm thinking of the forward ports....You're correct, more like #10s.
In an attempt to reuse the frames, I thru-drilled and countersunk the exterior frame for #10s.
A338's ports and frames however, are/were aluminum and the tapped sockets for s.s. machine screws were all corroded.
Probably because Pearson didn't use a barrier on the threads.


You are heroic - remodeling the footwell/bridge-deck....

But you are doing this, as I understand it, to gain head room for horizontal sleeping.
Howzit going to work? Isn't it a bit high up for a bunk?
Can't visualize a bunk over the galley area.
Is the arrangement athwartship ? Not. So it has to extend forenaft into the cabin....
Has to fold or disassemble quickly.
Mon, you don't happen to have a sketch you can post here?:D

I'm also one of those long people that don't fit in buses and airplanes, and economy cars....and MORCs.
All's fair in taking OP's ideas in boat remodeling. so, give it up!

[CapnK]

I made a few primitive drawings to try and help explain it somewhat visually.

I had removed all of the original sink, shelf, icebox, etc, leaving only the settees butted up against the original aft bulkhead a while back.

I cut the forward 14-16" (I forget the exact number) of cockpit footwell and footwell sides, up to the level of the seats, right at the corner between the horizontal top/seats and the footwell sides. The vertical cut runs right down along the forward seat lid drains, and the bridgedeck now extends aft to that point.

9242

This part of the footwell included the drains, so I bored a hole in the aft end of the cockpit behind the tiller, and built up the cockpit floor so that water now drains aft, through that hole and then on out through the outboard well.

I cut out the after bulkhead down belowdecks, leaving about 4" of material along the top edge, and dropped a vertical cut 5-6" out from the hull sides. At settee level, that narrows to only about 2" of original bulkhead, cut down to & across at settee level. There is between 26-27" of height over the settee level up to the bridgedeck overhead. I am extending the settees at their original level back to what will be the new after bulkhead, this is in line with the forward cockpit seat drains, basically filling in the space where the inboard would be, over the keel sump.

9243

9241

The cockpit lockers will be separated and sealed off from one another, as well as from the space under the footwell. That will be it's own, sealable space for stowage, as will the areas under the settees/bunk.

I am using a telescoping ladder for access into the cabin; it extends to the forward edge of the berth when down, and can be folded up and out of the way against the companionway boards. The berth is a shallow 'U' shape, with each settee forming the "legs" - the extra bit makes for a length sufficient that either leg can be a 'downhill' sea berth when heeled over, each as long as I am tall, and also serves as seating. It would also be easy to put in a filler board in the middle of the U and have a really wide (larger than double bed) athwartships "in port" berth.

Forward of the berth/settees & up to the main bulkhead is galley on both sides, the v-berth area is the head and general stowage. To keep the heavy stuff low and centered, I have 2 AGM batteries that live under a sealed-off hump just aft of the main bulkhead; wiring goes up from them in tubes, snorkel-like to deck level then out to hull on each side before running fore/aft - so electrical should not get wet unless she sinks, that is the plan there. You step over the batteries going forward. I am going to try and put water tankage just outboard of those, under cabinetry.

[CapnK]

A shot with the construction boss/overseer. This should clarify things. I've emptied tons of detritus, cleansed decades of mold, and am slowly but surely poisoning a recent and wily stowaway (species Rattus norvegicus) to death, all as final prep for construction in the aft end of the boat. That means glass work will start in the next few days.

9303

I'm using the the old pegboard that delineated the two lockers from the center space as patterns to make foam cored planks that will fit vertically below the cockpit sole. Glassed there and to the hull, they'll become longitudinal bulkheads reaching from the aft-most bulkhead up to the plane of "Barque's doggy door". I will make cored athwartships bulkheads at that point as well on the line of the forward locker drains, defining the rear end of the cabin space in the process.

Planned progess will be: make slightly oversized foam planks from pattern, insert dry, mark and trim to fit, while also noting area of hull and structure from which paint will need removal prior to bonding. Take panels back out, glass both sides, then reinsert and bond in place. Most of the surface glassing of the new bulkheads will be done outside of the boat this way. I'll probably roll on a coat or two of paint everywhere besides where they'll need bonding while the space is "open" and easily accessible, leaving only the "new construction" to be painted once glasswork is done.

This will serve as my test for creating foam-cored, glass-skinned panels/planks shaped to fit as 'dry' foam in the cabin, removed for surface glassing, and then reassembled and bonded at the corners/edges to finish. Crossing my fingers it works like I think it could...

Once done I will have two completely separate cockpit lockers (watertight, if I work on the locker lids a bit), and the space under the cockpit sole will be stowage, accessible from in the cabin. Immediately forward of this, at the same height/level as the original settee, will be my double-bed-sized athwartships berth, 2/3 under the companionway, with 2 small projections on each side of the boat allowing one to lie along the hull instead of across the boat, if desired.

Still figuring out the mechanics of the doggie door, how best to keep it as an openable area which can still be sealed easily and securely when underway... :)

[CapnK]

Why do we consider our ill-implemented and inconsistently thick cabin trunk overhead liners to be sacrosanct?

[CapnK]

...like Dali, the thought so inspired me, I had to take a nap.

[CapnK]

The liner...

allows condensation to form, mold to grow, water to travel unseen
makes it difficult for our not-very properly seaworthy ports to remain leak-free
provides little in insulation, and prevents further efforts in that area
seems to have been more of a nod to aesthetics than to strength and seakeeping ability


It must go.

[Tony G]

Good to hear from you again Capt.

Your last post brings up four easily found, and valid points. To address your first post today..I dunno. Everything is fair game, right?

You could easily add thickness where needed for backing plates and around ports* using small pieces of teak or other suitable wood. While sanding and filling over head is no fun, our cabin top is quite a small area and could easily be knocked out in a weekend (albeit a full weekend). It would go much quicker than the shimming, clamping, filling and sanding, filling and sanding, filling and sanding course I pursued, and, in retrospect, a far more practical and attractive route. I say go for it!

What about the cockpit conversion? What has been happening on that front? I can't wait to see the setees/berth start to take shape. That will really define the area. I really like what you got going on with KM, and find the duration between your posts dang near unbearable. :D

*I was recently on James Baldwin's site looking at the '72 Alberg 30 he finished. The way he instaled the portlites in the main salon really caught my eye. It is indeed the K.I.S.S. principle in practice, and a far more elegant solution than I came up with. I wanted nice wood trim around the ports, but made it so ungodly complicated. Eh, some have it, some..not so much.

[mbd]

@Kurt - Someone sounds cranky and show us some more pics!
@Tony - Look at the pot calling the kettle black. Ditto on the pics ...and stay warm!
:)

[ebb]

Don't know if you are seriously thinking about removing the liner.
Here are some ebbsters on that subject (without any how-to's!!)

When A338 had the cabin opened up, the V-berth area, which has no liner, had to be
spiffed up. That was a PITA. Took a large amount of prep, filling, fairing, and sanding
to get it presentable - even tho it is a pretty small space, it's also an awkward space,
with !@#$%^ overhead! Do the whole cabin to a aesthetically presentable condition would
be daunting. PRO, with the liner, it's already a fairly nice smooth!

The liner was put in by capturing the ends under the bulkheads, like it's smuuched on top of
the compression beam, likewise under the bridgedeck.... have to cut it out. Just cutting it
out of the accommodation will be a real treat. But, it's not more than 1/8" thick.
It must have been a PITA for the guys at Pearson to put it in! A338's liner was jacked up
crooked. Not impossible to deal with. Everytime you put a hole in it, you're in for a surprise.

Some PROs: The empty space between the cabin molding and the liner provides an extra
layer of insulation. There may be condensation inside (unlikely under the top which has a
balsa core). Yes, along the coach sides, but the sides are mostly 'glass' anyway.
Side decks are cored, and the liner is somewhat tight to the deck there.

Using the liner around the windows to create a hidden internal frame around the windows
will remove the flex from the sides...and consequently stop the leaking there. But Pearson
designed the stupid windows to capture the liner and sort of clamp it close to the cabin
with the window glass floating in the space between. Doesn't work, does it? because the
liner is not in the same place all around the cut outs.
Squeezing a gel mix that contains chopped fiber in between the two moldings means it will
no longer be squeezable - this may mean that when reinstalling original frames the tiny
#4 machine screws that dead end into the inside frame will probably not work anymore.
Forget how much bury in the frame there is for that connect, but not much, like an 1/8".

Ruminating on that fastening system, it isn't hard to imagine these porch windows blown
out by a half ton green comber*. So another window system may have to be devised.
The PRO on that, imco, is to spend time, $$$, and energy there to solve the problem by
USING THE LINER AROUND THE OPENING TO HELP. Obviously no more leaks into the liner.
A338 has slab-on 3/8" lexan now, with NO fastenings (the ones all around the lens) showing
inside. If there was time I'd do it a little differently now....but essentially feel our large
lights - that I particularly like (sacrosanct!) - will now survive... anything.

Another PRO is that when attaching fixtures like rails outside, you can use the liner to create
hidden hockey puck backings for individual fastenings. So instead of a block of wood, a fender
washer under a nut will do. Depending on how much space you have between the moldings
(no surprise it'll be different in every boat) could figure out how to install the nuts so they
don't protrude below the liner. Which is something my skull appreciates.
The cabin's primary laminate is substantial...like 1/4". Plenty strong enough for railings without
backing plates. Winches are something else....yet on the cabin top the pull load is horizontal.
So I don't believe a huge chunk of backing is necessary.

A338 has its inside handrails below the windows. The fastenings are hidden from the outside,
nothing shows, couldn't have been done without the liner. The rail is closed, so that it becomes
a narrow tray....to collect condensation!

Not to say that this couldn't be done with wood trim, ie fastening stuff thru the cabin molding
- sans the liner...
Of course I've never seen what the cabin looks like with the liner removed. Maybe it'd be a
piece of cake to doll up - and given how small the cabin living space, bet without the liner it'll
be a noticeable improvement.:D
.................................................. .................................................. .......................................
As delivered, our vessels were/are wet boats. If condensation is to be an upgrade, exposed
interior parts of the hull have to be insulated. Another chunk of time and money.:eek:
.................................................. .................................................. .......................................
*Have heard it said - and it is plausible - that windows are taken out by water action on the
lee side, boat leaning over in rough weather, rather than by greenies coming in over the bow......

[CapnK]

Well, when I got up this morning, I had no idea that Katie would be "liner-less" by the end of today.

She's halfway there, as of this writing. Had to take a break, hot work on an almost windless day!

Not sure, but thinking I may reuse liner on cabin trunk sides, trimmed away from the overhead and aft end, then glassed back in to strengthen the cabin trunk sides. Not as much material there as one would expect, given the rest of the boat.

Anyone wanna buy a set of frames/windows that are in pretty good shape? :)

[frank durant]

Nice to see Katie back getting attention!
Regular updates and pics please 😄😄

[CapnK]

(Is "Go Advanced" reply option not working for y'all? It isn't for me... Now I have to re-type my answer, grrrrr. So now it's shorter than it was before.)

OK, now I see it saying it took me too long , gave me an "Expired Token" error. Wuzzat? I ain't quick enough at these, I guess.

Pics: well, now, on top of the above, it is asking for a URL to the pics, and I cannot upload them. I guess that it will have to be in a thread at PlasticClassicForum, since only "Quick Reply" works for me here. :/ I'll post a link later today. But I did get it all removed yesterday, the second half of the job took 1/4 the time of the first. Is that a Law, like Murphy's? ;)

[ebb]

Kurt, if this helps:
To get to talk here, Post Quick Reply does not function for member.

I have to use the Go Advanced box to get in here on your thread.

When composing:
when I hit 'edit' I get this full width (long line) page with Save in a box
-- followed be Go Advanced in a box -- followed by Cancel in a box -- bottom right
all in a row.

Save takes me back with original text and new text changes to the public post page.

Go Advanced takes me to a half column EDIT page that has access to the smilies.
One set works for the title of the post. The other, icons can be used in the text.

As a member, the Quick Reply box does not work when I want to reply to your post.
Have to use the Go Advanced to be able to post or discuss.
I don't believe if you are in 'guest' mode that you can be in here.

It's "always" been like this. But maybe is an anomaly unique to Bill's V-Bulletin.
I will now go to Submit Reply!


Relationship with computer is personal. Reboot both on screen and manual.
Are you still 'signed in'? Dunno nothin bout pooters, this is only from experience.
Did you by mistake hit 'Log Out' (top right) last time?

[CapnK]

Howdy Ebb - Apparently, it timed out on me, I took too long without an input or something, so then when I tried I was denied. If I hit "Reply" at bottom of last message, I can get the full Advanced response screen. It is a vBulletin thing I reckon, and I am more used to SMS and phpBB Forum softwares, yes. :)