The truth about the ice box.

[c_amos]

I have got to tell you, having spent the better part of the day becoming intimately acquainted with the ice box on Faith, I have come away impressed.

Say what you will about those (often) drunken Portuguese fishermen that I understand were the majority of the workcrew at Pearson when our boats were being assembled, I am impressed (I think that is who I should put it).

I have a buddy who does cabinet work. If he assembled cabinets like these guys built this ice box, it would take approximately 8 years to remodel a single kitchen.

TO back up,

I have a confession. I like my ice box (now past tense). I like my cabinets, the hanging locker, I even like the original Monel water tank up forward. I drank water out of it all summer and there ain't a thing wrong with me......

Well, anyway.

The problem is that I have never used my Ice box as an ice box. I use it as dry storage. I know that I would not use it while cruising, and frankly don't have a great need for lot's of cold storage anyway. (medium cooler suits me fine).

The ice box is very inefficient for dry storage (with all the space taken up by insulation), and I wanted to remove the lid from my favorite lounging spot in the cockpit anyway (as well as remove the potential off-shore liability).

Today was too damp to epoxy the holes left by the removal of the jib tracks. So the ice box was bumped to the top of the list.

Here is what my old friend looked like before I started.

I know, shameful. It was always good for collecting all the junk that piled up as I was working on everything else. The purple magazine rack..... that I will not miss. :D

[c_amos]

I don't need to give the procedures since that is in the manual, but I thought it was interesting to see how it was put together.

After I removed the teak trim, and the door I pried the top off (nailed on) and there was a 1" Styrofoam panel under it. (note the wasps nests, thankfully empty).

[c_amos]

Since I was not going to follow the same path as the manual, I wanted to preserve the inside bulkhead of the icebox. I removed the laminate from the front, which exposed the screw heads.

[c_amos]

Here is the insulation behind the front. Now, if this were it I would not think too much of it. The design goes on.....

[c_amos]

I thought I had gotten a couple more pictures between the last one ans here but I guess I was too into it.

Basically, there were teak cleats screwed EVERYWHERE. Under the box, was a layer of foam, and an air layer built of 3 layers of plywood, and cleats.

The week spots seem to be the doors (as Steve identified in the thread on his conversion from ice box to reefer).

[c_amos]

THis will be patched, and made fair.

Note how thick glass in the corner of the cabin liner is!

[c_amos]

Here it is with the original base in place. I will not be using it, except as a pattern but it gives a good idea of the size of table.

Just right for the manual! :D


I am leaving the side of the old ice box (inboard) to partition the space. It should keep the pots and pans from sliding ALL the way across the counter..... At least I hope. :D

[CapnK]

Excellent photo-series, Craig, thanks for showing us your icebox's demise. Did you have to take 1, 2, or more deep breaths before you started the destruction? :) Your new Manual table looks good, and is a great size for nav work. I really like the space you opened up there. I'm now pondering alternative icebox solutions to what I was thinking before. :D

Is it surprising to anyone else that the styrofoam, environmentally protected by a sheath of plywood, formica, and teak cleats, looks almost as good as new, even though it's *40'ish years old*? (Perhaps I need to sheath myself in plywood, to preserve what precious little is left of my youth. Yeah, that'll bring the ladies runnin'...) You read about how long that type of material takes to degrade, but these pics offer proof positive. Our landfills will be great sources of knowledge about our lives and boating habits for people (or something else) far in the future.

Last question, Craig - are you going to put the purple magazine rack on eBay, or let us bid on it amongst ourselves here? :D

[c_amos]

Did you have to take 1, 2, or more deep breaths before you started the destruction?

I am maybe a little but overly reverent about such things. I was actually a little uneasy about destroying this thing. I feel like it has endured for 40 years, and once gone it can not be put back. I want to make it better, and hope that this feeling translates into doing the work well.

Time will tell.


As for the purple magazine rack, sadly it was destroyed in the effort. :p

[Tim61N]

Craig,
I have that very same book on C-Nav that was in the (late) purple rack! Want to borrow my plastic sextant?
It looks like from your pictures you started out very meticulously removing pieces and then towards the end resorted to a more brute force/big hammer approach, judging by the big ripped out chunk of plywood in the last picture?
Are you going with the clear window over the table or are you going to glass it over?
Tim

[c_amos]

I basically gnawed it out like a dog.

I was prying, and pulling. The plywood tore as I pried it where I could not reach the screw heads (mainly the ones run from the inside that had been glassed over). I avoided the hammer, as much to keep from poking my eye out as anything :eek:

Yes, I am a student of celestial. I have a brass sextant, and a Davis 25 both. I have the theory down pat, and can successfully get a fix, at any time of day in any sea state that will firmly establish which hemisphere I am in. :D

I am going for the 'faired as though it had not been there' look. I like the concept, and the execution in the manual is excellent but I would rather not have to protect the lexan window. I want it to be very strong (thick fiberglass, well attached) and fair. I also like to lean up against the cabin at anchor and the refer door has not been a comfortable perch.

The inside will be cut clean, and trimmed. I plan to put a small shelf where the ice box top once was, as it is a handy place to reach down to when topside for small items like the hand bearing compass.

I have a small 10w 12v halogen fixture purchased from the poor mans 'WM'
that will mount nicely under the shelf and should be hidden from view by the overhang, as well as a pair of red led clusters for night time use.

[c_amos]

As the project continues, a couple of thoughts that might be helpful;

First an observation;

After removing the ice box, I noticed the boot stripe on the starboard side showed more.

I doubt that was the weight of the ice box it’s self, but rather the canned goods I had stowed there, being so far outboard. I can clearly see 1.5"-2" of the boot stripe that was not visible before.
The list was not so pronounced that I had ever noticed it before I removed the icebox. I think it probably came and went as I stocked and depleted my pantry which happens regularly as I kinda a semi-live-aboard.



Notes on the conversion;

You can kind of see in the picture in post #7, the cabin liner appears to 'frown' with the outer edges being lower then center. The cockpit seats also are lower at their outer edges then they are at the inside.

The cockpit seat bottom is not parallel to the chart table, or the cabin sole, or (or what ever plane you would chose as a benchmark). I plan to mount a small shelf at approximately the same height as the old ice box top. I have decided to mount it in front of, rather then under, the liner to account for this.

Do not underestimate the depth of the hole you will have to fill once you remove this lip. :eek: I epoxy-glassed 3/8" to the bottom and then laid up many layers of roving. If I had it to do over, I would have filled the center with a 1/4 ply core and laid more roving over the top. I kind of feel like a worker at the Pearson factory in that I lost track of how many layers of roving I laid up in that hole. Let's just say it is plenty thick. :rolleyes:

Also;

*Cutting the lip out of the deck brought out the 'lip liner' as well. This additional flap of fiberglass was not attached to anything but the underside of the lip. I realize that this will make little or no sense with no picture, or if you are not in the middle of this job. It may, however be helpful to someone who is scratching their head as I was 3 days ago.


Got the fairing compound over it yesterday afternoon, hope to sand it and get the topcoat in the cockpit this weekend. Then again, I might knock the dust off and go sailing.


Decisions decisions........




* I wish I had a picture, but may help if you do the job.

[c_amos]

Don't know if anyone is interested, but......

IF anyone knows of an Ariel out there in need of some ice box parts let me know.

It seem like the ice box lid might be something that would be prone to have been dropped over the side over the last 40+ years. I also have a good door, and the latch is in pretty good shape (little light surface corrosion).

[c_amos]

I am now attempting to make peace with the general lines of the remainder of the original interior in #226.

I have grown tired of tripping over the large box of stuff I removed from the ice box when I tore it out as I have worked on other projects. The natural place to put them is in the bottom cabinet under the drawers on the port side, but alas that is already occupied. :(

I took a few pictures of the mess aboard 'Faith' but am too embarassed to post them, let's sufice to say I need more stowage room. :o One mod I did not seem to find in the archives was to convert the hanging locker into a cabinet. Now, I know that there is a danger in loading too much stuff into it, but with prudence I think it will be ok.

Here is what I am thinking. Remove the coat bar, not a real loss since it only holds a couple coats anyway. Then put 2 or 3 shelves on cleats, with barrel bolts on top to make sure they don't pop out in foul weather.

Maybe something like this;

Top Shelf 12”: (light stuff) Bread, chips, nuts, etc.



Middle shelf 14”: Autohelm, Sextant, Flare kit, First Aid kit



Bottom Shelf: Plastic storage box with pantry items formerly under drawers on port side.



Bottom cabinet under drawer on port side: Canned goods formerly in ice box.

Thoughts?

[CapnK]

Hi Craig -

I've been eyeing my icebox with intent towards removal/modification, too. One thing about it as it is set up right now, though - I like that upper "shelf" space, and the fact that it serves as a high step helping to make it easier/safer to get down below when there is one hatchboard in. So, after looking once more at your pics, I think I have a plan - leave the upper shelf/box-top in place, and remove all of the insulation etc from the lower portion of the standard icebox. I've some ideas for how to arrange the space this will give me - but first a question:

In this pic up in post #4 of this thread it looks like once I get the top and front off, it'll be easy to remove the insulation and inner structure. Am I being fooled, is this inner stuff attached in some way unknown and unseeable in these pics? The next photo where the "guts" appear they are somewhat mangled, as if they only came out reluctantly. :)

Thanks for any tip you can share. I'm gonna post a pic of the icebox I made over in Katie's Gallery thread in a few moments. I've added another inch of foam to it's interior, and it's working tip-top. I'll probably make it a bit smaller in the final version.

Also, I think turning the coat locker into shelved storage space is a good idea. I just read Lin and Larry's "Champagne Cruising on a Beer Budget" the other day - they suggested using restaurant steam table pans for drawers - sounds like a good idea, I wonder if you could find some of the proper dimensions...

[commanderpete]

Those pans come in a standard size "a full pan" and fractions thereof...1/2 pan, 1/3 pan etc. They also come in different depths.

They're not cheap. You can sometimes find them used, but they'll probably be grubby and dented.

They're sometimes called "hotel pans"

Cheers,

Peter
former Head Chef

[CapnK]

Dear Head Chef -

How, exactly, does one go about preparing a Head for human consumption? I'm assuming you are speaking of Marine Heads, as this is a boating site? It would seem that the various porcelains and plastics would make them awfully tough, even with lots of cooking. Maybe Porta Pottis would be easier to prepare, being mostly just plastic...

:D

[commanderpete]

Well, whenever I needed to get rid of something nasty I would make it the nightly "Special"

Serve it Cajun style or Fra Diavolo.

Beware restaurant "Specials"

[c_amos]

Kurt,




...as it is set up right now, though - I like that upper "shelf" space, and the fact that it serves as a high step helping to make it easier/safer to get down below when there is one hatchboard in. So, after looking once more at your pics, I think I have a plan - leave the upper shelf/box-top in place.....



I like the shelf too, the 'small shelf' I talked about above is actually a cut down version of the original ice box lid. The top of the Ice box looms rather large without the ice box under it. I originally cut it down to come out about 12", but even that seemed too far. I have now settled on something like 7".



My plan had been to glue new laminate to the top, but I have had trouble getting the new laminate to bond to the old laminate. Having a few projects going at once, it has found the back burner for now.






In this pic up in post #4 of this thread it looks like once I get the top and front off, it'll be easy to remove the insulation and inner structure. Am I being fooled, is this inner stuff attached in some way unknown and unseeable in these pics? Do not be deceived. There are about 793 mild steel 1/4" wood screws comming into this from all angles. The 'less destructive' approach, is a hard road. I admit there were screws I had to tear out and even saw through because the only thing they all had in common was that the combination of 1). Mild steel, 2). Flat heads, 3). being threaded into teak made them all 4). Strip like you would not believe.





Also, I think turning the coat locker into shelved storage space is a good idea.



I have mine built, I am going to put teak or mahogany face boards on them. Once that is done, I will post some pictures.

[c_amos]

Took a couple pictures of the shelf. The first is the 'cleat' it rests on. It is more of a sill really. It is 20 1/4" and 2"high (5/8" thick) mohagany very much like the companion way is is next to. I countersunk 6 screws up from below to attach the shelf from the bottom.

[c_amos]

You will notice in this view, I have elected to retain the original blue/green (?)formica countertop material.

After attempting to get the laminate to stick to it, and then taking great pains to clean it I decided it was not so bad after all. :)

The shelf is about right, might have been left an inch or so deeper, but not much more then that. The things that will stay there under way are pretty small any way, and one of the big pluses of removing the ice box is having the space open.

I left the part that wraps around the side intact. I have kept my parallel rule there, plus it strengthens the shelf considerably.

[c_amos]

The hanging locker shelves have already filled up.

Really simple, just plywood, on cleats and mahogany face boards. The plywood will be primed and painted, and covered with that rubberized anti-slip liner.

[c_amos]

The face boards are there for more then just looks. I wanted enough of a 'ledge' to keep things from sliding off. I intend to keep things in the plastic containers, and the face boards are just high enough to keep the containers (and other stuff like the autohealm) in place.

They are oiled (like most all the other interior wood).

[c_amos]

Another idea to gain access to storage space, is to open up the area under the companionway.

I asked if anyone had an extra cabinet door a while back, and Ebb sent me one from #338. (Thanks Ebb). :)

I measured it out and cut an opening. Of course you can already access half this space from the other door, but the sink drain limits the use of this. THen you can lift out the step, but mine was so tight, I rarely did so it was effectively lost.

It is lost no more. :cool:

[frank durant]

Great storage ideas. I'l be copying the door under the step for sure. Good thinking. #50 ;)

[Bill]

Interesting. The battery in #76 is under the bottom step -- just below the buss bars for the electrical system. Not much room for storage ;)

[c_amos]

#226 has a platform sitting approximately 6" aft of the bulkhead. It is large enough for two large deep cycle batteries. It is about where, (probably fwd of where) the A-4 would be. That gives about the depth of the counter....

.....something like 24" of free space behind that door. Of course there is as much space behind original door under the sink, but the darn sink drain makes that space hard to get at.

I did not post this because I had not painted the inside of the sole yet. I know, I know, but the standard here is so blasted high. :D Anyway, here it is. In all it's un-repaintedness. The basket seen inside is something like 8" x 12"

Oh yea, and the other foolishness you will notice in the picture is the mini bungee. That is a temp, till I can find some kind of latch to approximate the original function.

[CapnK]

Lookin good, Mr Amos. :D

I sat, looked at, and sketched the aft end of the cabin last night. Been thinking on your comments re: the full size top-o-box shelf. While they make good sense, I may still leave mine full size. The space inside will become book storage/ bulk storage at the back, and an area for a laptop at the front. The full size top will help protect these from inadvertant wettings via the companionway. Not sure yet, at least until I gut the area, but I think that it would be an efficient way to use the space. I've decided that I won't be going for a dedicated chart table area, since the available areas are too small for an unfolded chart anyway. My empty bunk will suffice, methinks.

I also drew in some shallow cabinets in the area under the bridgedeck that looked good. Will mount the stereo/CD into those, so it's accessible by reaching in from the cockpit on nicer days.

Think I'm going to box in the area to port of the sink (bunk footwell area), putting a deep, long sliding drawer next to the sink, and a top-opening bin for the rest of the area, perhaps with a door also which will open forwards for easier stowage/access of large items into that bin.

The shelving in the hanging locker idea I think I will be stealing from you. :D

[CapnK]

These tapes were found in an old moldy bin in a warehouse in RI, and may go a long way towards explaining the construction of the icebox...
-------------------------------------------

Voice #1 (Pearson pres.?): OK, so we're gonna put an icebox in these baby Tritons?

Voice #2 (Swedish sounding): Yes, I think it will add to the functionality and appeal of the boat I designed.

Voice #3 (Portugese sounding, slightly slurred): Bueno! We can keep our cold, um, drinks - yes, cold soft drinks in there while we work on ze boats!

V1: OK, iceboxes it is then. Were will they be located?

V2: Starboard corner of the cabin, up high, with a reach-through from the cockpit.

V1: Ah! Good idea! Lots of sailors will find that convienent!

V3: Bueno again! We can reach into the iceboxes for our soft drinks when working without having to go below!

V1: Um... How are we supposed to make them?

(phone ringing in background)

V2 has a muted phone conversation, mostly heard is something like "Ya......Ya...Okay then."

V2: I have to go, someone wants me to draw a 35 footer. Goodbye! (sound of door shutting moments later)

V1: OK, since he's gone, I'm making a judgement call on this. We need those iceboxes built strongly. Heavens knows that sailors will need uncontaminated beer if the Red Menace launches a nuclear strike.

V2: Si.

V1: OK, make them with 3" of insulation, so the drinks stay cold along time.

V2: Um, Senor, there is not room enough for that much insulation...

V1: OK then. Hmmm. Alright, do this - make them of plenty of wood, as much wood as you can fit into that space. Put just enough insulation so that we can legally say it is in there. Then, use lots and lots and lotsof flathead bronze screws to put the things together. Make it so hard to take apart that noone will ever know how little insulation is in there. Put screws, lots of them, in inaccesible spots. Countersink those, fill in the holes, and paint over those spots afterwards to hide the screw holes. Where screws are accessible, cover them with fiberglass or formica adhesive. Line the interior with enough glass that someone would have to chisel it out to get to the screwheads. And for every screw that you put in, I want *at least* 2 nails elsewhere to make it even harder to take apart. There will come a day when someone will discover the lack of insulation, and we don't want to get sued over that...

V2: (sound of a slight burp) Si, Senor...

--------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, Craig, I took my icebox out today. :D Phew! Wasn't planned, I am getting ready to make Interior Cabinets Prototype #1, and I took off the door. Then I started on the formica on the face. Then I took off the upper trim. Then I...

3 hours later, all that's left is the vertical plywood by the steps. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that yet, though I may opt for the small shelf idea like you did.

Man, I'm glad that's over. I'm itchy.

The new icebox is going into the space below the old one. Can't think of any other good way to use that space, once I have cabinetry in the area forward of there.

[c_amos]

Kurt,

:)

also,


Just a reminder,

If any of the new Ariel owners need an Icebox door, the icebox cockpit hatch, or the hardware. I have them available.

[eric (deceased)]

I took the lid off,ground flat the vertical exterior retaining ridges,filled in the rectangular remaining void in the cockpit area,put a nice ceramic tile in the interior floor if the former icebox,and thats where I kept enuff pasta to get across the ocean {and back}.thass'whuh' ahll doo ness'time too.{ness'time cometh} :Done more thing----what would it cost to build an ariel today----just as they did it before the last ice age???I mean all the same chromed fittings---hand lay-up hull---EVERYTHING

[tha3rdman]

Where can I find the post ont he conversion from icebox to reefer, I tried searching to no avail.

[c_amos]

Eric,




what would it cost to build an ariel today----just as they did it before the last ice age???I mean all the same chromed fittings---hand lay-up hull---EVERYTHING



I believe it is about 90K. They call it the Alerion 28. Not quite as pretty though. IMHO



Third Man,

Search for Sirocco (Steve Arling’s wonderful Ariel). He had not modified the original ice box, but built a top loader. (as a front loader, it was not efferent enough if I remember correctly.)

On Edit:



Found them:



Here is the link on Sirocco's Refrigeration;



http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=73 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=73)



Here is where you can drool over the rest of the work Steve did;



http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=433 (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=433)

[frank durant]

Here's to Steve and Sirocco !!! I got many of my ideas looking at his fine boat ! He did a GREAT job...Much more 'attention to detail' than my project'...just a beautiful boat.

[xroyal]

Here's to Steve and Sirocco !!! I got many of my ideas looking at his fine boat ! He did a GREAT job...Much more 'attention to detail' than my project'...just a beautiful boat.

Amen! Except, his in Annapolis, and yours is in Paradise. ;)

[Hull376]

Well, another IceBox bites the dust! I took a Milwaukee Sawzall and went after the dang thing---- not being at all bashfull about it. Took it on like I was breaking out of jail. Chewed, chopped, gnawed (as in previous posts), sliced, yanked, butchered! Yep, it all came out in about an hour and a half. I took the base piece of plywood and cut out a new one, put it in with a new front piece of teak trim, and presto! A big empty space.

Wired in a new 12V and 110v outlet at the back and then, put in a new Engel freezer/refigerator after reading up on building reefers, what the market offers, and then which one to buy for lowest energy draw. I got the Engel MT17, not really big, but lots of room considering you don't feed it any ice. Not cheap, but will last longer than I will. Battery draw is way low. The latest compressor design has one moving part-- quiet and much more efficient than the previous model. I set mine on about 36 degrees and I'm averaging about 1.2 amps on 12volts. You can switch to ac when plugged in at the dock. This reefer is not a toy. Built tough, sturdy, real quality.

I've got 300 amp hr battery bank, so I can run it here in the Texas heat for several days and not take the bank down very far. I'm still using a 60 watt solar panel for charging. I typically use the boat for two or three day cruises, then it sits at the dock for a week, so the panel has the bank back to 100% no matter what I drained out of the bank on the last trip.

As you can tell, I am thrilled to death that I had the guts to saw out that old piece of ballast that Pearson called an Icebox.

[tsprat]

I have checked through the old post. what are people doing with the ice box. (keeping the ice box or removing it )
Tim

[josh#74]

I plan on rebuilding mine. just big enough for two gallon size containers on the bottom with access from the cabin, and a six pack on the upper shelf for quick access from the cockpit.

[kendall]

I just ripped mine out, fiberglass was all crazed, the wood was rotted and delaminated, so I figured I may as well tear into it. Planned to just replace it with a slide out shelf for a regular cooler, but then I decided I didn't like where the sink was, so the simple cooler shelf idea grew.

On mine it looked very good, and it wasn't untill I tried to mount something under it that I found out the wood was history.
I know from my triton that the factory iceboxes are only good for a day or so at the most.

Was hoping to have it done by this spring, but got sidetracked in clearing out and rebuilding the garage cabinets so I had a place to work, so far I have it laid out and most materials gathered, but nothing cut yet so unless I really make a hard drive at it, I may not get her in the water this year.

Ken.

[SkipperJer]

you're not alone. I didn't make it in last year after discovering rot in the cockpit floor around the tiller. Then my job exploded and so it went. She's in now after 16 months.

[tsprat]

I am toying with the idea, of taking out the ice box, but you have that outside access and I was thinking of keeping that and glassing it in

[Bill]

Search on chart table, refrigeration and icebox.

[c_amos]

FWIW,

I do not regret removing the icebox. It is MUCH nicer to have the chart table.

(2 cents couple years after the fact)

[Hull376]

Some shots of Ice Box after removal and installing an Engel MT 17 refer. The cockpit cover has a screw epoxied to it and it fits through an inside wood cover that is tightened in place with a wing nut. Can be opened for natural light, ventilation.

[Hull376]

Refer in place

[Westgate]

I agree it would be nice to remove the ice box but we elected not to in the name of actually making it into the water this year. I did seal up the outside access which was pretty easy (see Arthur Thread). We will use it as a "big cupboard" for food storage etc. The PO had modified the interior on the port side and built a countertop with a really nice top loading ice box. I will try and remember to get some pics next time out. That is if I can remove all the crap that in on that countertop!

[Stephan]

Hey Gentlemen,

My project is to improve my existing ice box, by adding 2 inches of insulation inside, and converting it to a refrigerator using the Norcolder ice box conversion kit I just received.
According to Don Casey, the right foam to use for the extra insulation is firm polyurethane form sheets.
Unfortulately, I cannot find polyurethane foam anywhere in the 'depot' and the other home improvement stores I tried. Does anybody know where to get this stuff?
Alternatively my question is, what IS wrong with using polystyrene foam ('styrofoam')? It's cheap and seems to insulate well in houses, and I can get it everywhere. I'm going to clad the new inside of the box anyways, so the foam will be covered...

I hope someone has some tips for me! Thanks, Stephan

[CapnK]

Stephan -

Last time I looked at the 'depot' type stores a couple years ago, the PU foam was not up in the house insulation (by the pink/blue stuff), but back in the HVAC area. The PU foam is faced with a white side and a shiny side, basically a aluminum foil glued to the foam. The foam itself is a yellowish/brown color. For some reason the name "Celotex" comes to mind. (Ah, here's a pic: http://tinyurl.com/kr79dq ).

That said, you can use EPS foam (the pink/blue or even white stuff), it will insulate fine.

I suspect Casey may have recommended PU because you can bond polyester resin to it. It might also outgas less, or something. Ebb can tell you that, I bet. But that reflective side on the Celotex will act as a radiant barrier, which will help.

[Stephan]

Great news!
Thanks epiphany. I'll report progress and my experience with the Norcold kit asap.
Have a great day everybody.
Stephan

[ebb]

Rigid polyurethane foam was/is quite available last I used it. It's nasty to shape because it is friable and the crumbs are attracted to clothes and skin.
But it came/comes with aluminum skin in various thicknesses. What happened to it?

Then there is pink and blue polystyrene that Kurt likes. Can't find THAT stuff here in CA.
Roofing suppliers should have it. So should sheet goods suppliers to contractors.
Your local lumber store?
You want CLOSED CELL RIGID BOARDSTOCK.
And it is to be preferred over urethane foam!
I personally would not use urethane foam in the closed space of the boat.
Also the foam is not truly closed cell.


If you recall CFCs were depleting our ozone layer in the '90s? Refrigerants, aerosols and blowing agents. Did the holes in the ozone over the Arctic ever close up again? Then they came out with HCFCs, just as bad.
It is the chemical blowing agents that provide much of the insulation quality to closed cell foam. They have tried to use inert nitrogen gas as a blowing agent in some foams. Have to look for them, if interested. The HCFCs stick around longer in foam than nitrogen. Besides, DOW probably has patents on them but can't patent nitrogen!
Of course it's not just the ozone but our lungs and livers.:eek:
Anyway. so that's 'outgassing'. In a closed environment: dangerous/toxic. However the icebox project will probably be sealing off added foam insulation pretty well.

Here without comment a quote from your revolving door EPA:


"Effective Jan 1, 1994, plastic foam products which contain or are manufactured with HCFCs were banned from sale or distribution into interstate commerce under Section 610 of the Clean Air Act.

Thermal insulation foam products are, however, EXEMPTED from this ban. Foam insulation products are defined as a product containing or consisting of the following foam types.
Closed cell rigid polyurethane foam.
Closed cell rigid polystyrene boardstock foam.
Closed cell rigid phenolic foam and
Closed cell rigid polyethylene foam."


Polyethylene closed cell foam also comes in a friendly bendy non-rigid form. It's a packing material and is used for yogha mats etc. It seems to be non-lethal, odorless. It's cheap. You need special glues. Epoxy doesn't stick to it at all. Solvent glue is probably lethal, maybe an method can be devised to use the foam for insulation without the glue?
I would use this stuff. Found it at TAP. I have three small 1/2" sheets of it floating around in the back of the truck. The material gets yanked, crushed, piled on - nothing happens to it, and it is as friendly as a puppy. Least lethal of all foams imco. Said to burn without producing deadly gases.

[Stephan]

Ebb,

this is great information. TAP however doesn't exist here in Chicago. I'll have to look around for a supplier to find that PE foam and glue.
Samsclub seems to sell it as huge rolls for packing purposes. Might do lots of layers of it. (it's 1/8 in). I wonder if it won't compress over time.

Thanks, Stephan

[ebb]

Stephan,
It's called ETHAFOAM (by Dow)
It exists everywhere. The white stuff is used for historical preservation. Often associated with food.
Some big deal packers will have it. Packaging suppliers. Art shippers. Cocrete/Masonry suppliers. Might find it free.
Farm supply. Pond liners.

I wouldn't use the thin stuff if I had a choice. It must come in inch sizes. maybe you can find it in the size you actually want.

It's a translucent/white resilient material that bends easy but still is stiff.
Soft stiff. Cuts easy, utility knife/serrated knife, scissors, bandsaws (controlled bevels & curves) like cutting a croissant.
Immune to most chemicals.

McMasterCarr has it but it is pretty pricey for packing material.
Which it isn't, the stuff they have - but look at their prices. It's not white either.
There are many varieties and grades. The 'packing' grade is good enough imco.
Exposed the foam has a life of 20years.
I would feel if I got the thickness I wanted it might be worth the bumph for it. Maybe.
Check out (aqueous) acrylic contact cements for sticking. Your research....
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
ULINE (uline.com) shipping suppliers sends catalogs here to the Vineyard and they are online. Look up "Plank Foam" This is packaging foam so it is quite light ie low density. Located in Chicago. and elsewhere.
1-800-958-5463.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
Want to avoid shipping because UPS socks it to ya for volume. Uline's small sizes might be just the thing if you already know the dimensions of the box you're building.
Many interloggers have a flat fee for shipping.

[Stephan]

Hi All,

I wanted to quickly report on the fridge conversion unit I used.
It's called 'Norcold SCQT4407 Ice Box Conversion Unit 6.0 CF' and can be found at WM, Defender (where I bought it) and other places, just google for it. I paid around $600 for it.
Initially I was very focused on improving the insulation of my ice box before putting the unit in and let it sit on my boat unused for over a month. Since I really wanted it functional before a little cruise we did two weeks ago, I finally decided to simply put the thing in and worry about insulation later. Summer here in Chicago has been a disaster anyway.
I placed the compressor unit into the rear of the starboard locker (it's important to place it where it has good circulation), and the evaporator into the ice box (of course). I had to drill rather large holes through the box to get the copper tubing with its attached fittings through it. After attaching the copper lines to the compressor the thing ran like a charm.
After over two weeks I can say it works beautifully. When I run it on high, it actually manages to freeze things that are close to the evaporator. On a reasonable, fridge like setting, it cycles at maybe 50% on/off. Since it uses 40W when running, it uses roughly 480Wh per day. So far, my solar panels have had no problems keeping it supplied, with the help of three parallel group 24 dual purpose batteries, including light, computer etc.
As the days get shorter, the amount of solar power I will get per day will decrease, but the fridge will have to work less when temperatures drop.

So, to sum it up, this unit works well and I didn't have to buy any more ice since.

Stephan

[c_amos]

Posting from "Ariel Spirit" laying at anchor here in Clearwater.

She still has the original icebox, and I was thinking yesterday just how cool it is to be able to reach something cool from the cockpit. I really like the idea, and maybe it would work better if the weather stripping on the door were replaced....

But.

I have been aboard since last Wednesday, and have had cold food in it since Thursday. I put the first load of ice Thursday ... (20# of cubes)... Added 3 more bags Friday afternoon.

Underway all day yesterday, added 3 more bags of ice. Today I sat at anchor as the owner and buyer worked out details of what is happening next.... All the cold food I have in the box is not cold. All the ice is melted!

So, I guess the answer is that if you want to day sail and do overnights, the original ice box is great. For anything longer, a good cooler or engle is going to be much more useful.


.... Although, it is awfully neat to grab a cold drink from the cockpit..... Man I LOVE these boats! :)

[CapnK]

Hey Craig - Be sure to remind the seller that $60 of the proceeds is mine... :cool: (It's the principal of the thing. ;) :p )

Then - You can keep the money and use it as the first 10% or so towards getting "Faith" an Engel of her own! :D