Sea Hood

[commanderpete]

I'm going to be adding a Sea Hood to my boat. Here's a few links and pictures I had come across. Various ways to make one--wood, plywood, fiberglass and combinations thereof.

http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/decktrim.htm

http://www.tritonclass.org/mir/236seahood.html

http://seaweed.thebilge.com/slidinghatch.htm

http://www.pacificseacraft.com/cgi-bin/printview.php?4417

I've been trying to think of the best way to secure it to the deck. Would prefer to bolt it through the deck somehow, rather than sending wood screws up from underneath.

I could easily bolt it on if the hood had an outward flange, but I don't want to do that.

I just want the hood to be securely attached, but capable of being removed if the need should arise.

[ebb]

hey C'pete.
[SORRY. Erased a bunch of blather here........]

[ebb]

C'pete'
Believe you've created a kind of rubric's sea hood here that can't be solved by anybody over 18. The only solution is a temporary one that would require one of your usual foredeck crew to sit on your forecabin with her frock drapped in such a way as to forestall the entry of boarding seas under your hatch. No flanges or fastenings required. No barrel nuts either!

[Tony G]

C'Pete,

How removable do you meanwhen you say removable? If you use something on the line of the Pacific Seacraft example youattached you could always remove the front panel and main hatch. That's prety removable. The side rails could be epoxied in place or even adhered with :eek: 5200... They say there is an agent you can use to remove that stuff now.

Part of me likes the traditional wood hood with a smooooth curve and tastefully contrasting wood species. Part of me likes a slick, low profile garage with a nice full instrument dash on top.

Eh, to each his own...

[ebb]

Got morn, dis is Carl here, shpeaking to you from Valhalla....

Yes, well, here's my input. Think the garage should look like the hatch with splayed sides and front, not a 90degree box you see a lot. Think it should be layed up inside a female form with frp. The splayed dish shape also would make it so much easier to laminate and remove from the form! Since there is a span, you can do it exactly like the hatch (assuming the Commander hatch is like the Ariel hatch) with a curved top which will keep it from deflecting, and adds enormous strength, when sat on.

It would be slim and tidy with a low profile because no plywood is used. 1/4 to 5/16" thick.

Tony's right on with the rise for the instruments at the open end, but you'ld have an up-flange here to act as a rib across the opening that would also be the breakwater and provide attachment for the bottom of the sunbrella dodger.

How do you attach the cowl to the deck? You could 5200 strips alongside the hatch and across the front. Let'e say 1 1/2 X 1 1/2" (wider on the bottom and smaller at the top) - they are shaped/angled exactly like the hood on the outer sides, so that when you mount the hood it slips snuggly down to the deck over these strips. Snug makes it strong.

Now comes the hard part:
Find some barrel nuts (would go for the 1/4" s.s ones from Jamestown*) you can glue into these strips (3 per side, 3 in front?) Attach the hood thru matching holes and wallawalla 'easy removal.'


* these require a 5/8" hole to be set in, a larger/taller strip may be required to comfortably take these. I would be very unhappy if the glue let go and the barrelnut decided to turn while I was unscrewing the machine bolt to take the hood off. Bummer. (the domestic alternative to the b.n. is called a T-nut. It has a wider flange for a 'head' and spurs that you set into the wood. Maybe find these in s.s.?)

So instead, one might consider including a metal bar attached to the wood rails, have to be 1/4" thick stuff for the threaded holes. Or maybe instead of long heavy bars, shorter rectangular pieces with threaded holes could be dapped into the logs and screwed on to match the hood's attachment points.

Poisonally, would break yer first rule and sneak in some lag screws (bolts WOULD be better) anyway along with the 5200 holding the mounting pieces on!!

Theryar bud, half done already :D

[ebb]

C'pete suh,
There is absolutely nothing better than a full size model of what you want. Seeing the problem from all angles eliminates future surprises. The first one can be taped together box cardboard using the hatch (with a suitable spacer) as the form) You can progress to poster board and white cardboard from the office supply store. From there you make the shape with doorskin or plywood. Then........

.................................................. .................................................. ...............


Better idea than bloody screws,,,
Imagine that when you are putting the completed seahood in place you lay it down on the deck in place - but a few inches forward of where it's supposed to be. Then you push and slide it home and tight. You have engaged a number of angle(?) keepers that hold the hood from moving. You provide somewhere one (1) fastener to keep it from being inadvertantly moved forward - which would disengaged the hook keepers. To officially disengage you'ld stand in the companion way facing the seahood and give it a good shove. That is it, NO series of screws!!! Easy. You could take it home to admire it every time you left the boat. Can imagine it would be just as easy to separate it from the dodger, half a dozen snaps and wallawallawalla! HA! :eek:

[CapnK]

C'pete -

Did you see Ray Henry's (from the TSBB) job he did on Seaweed, his Nimble? The link is here:

Seaweed (http://seaweed.thebilge.com/slidinghatch.htm)

http://seaweed.thebilge.com/images/exterior/seahoodandhatch/smfinishedclosed.jpg

[commanderpete]

He does some nice work.

One thing's for sure, my sea hood is going to be sturdy. I've had people sitting and standing on the sliding hatch. I don't like it, but what am I gonna do? Yell at them?

[commanderpete]

Instead I reinforced the underside of the sliding hatch, along the sides, front cut-outs and front curve. Also glassed in the wooden slides that hold the metal runners.

Before painting

[ebb]

Looks just like Ariel's.
If the reason for the sprayhood is that when you take water between the tracks the water drips in at the companionway, do you have adequate scuppers back at the end where the hatch stops? Maybe water can't get out fast enough so it collects there and finds its way in with the wind and motion of the boat.

With the boat tilted the water collects on one side against the rail. Maybe that's how it gets in, by a wedge of high water.

Next time the hatch is off check that the upturned edge of the deck is in goodshape there. An upgrade would be to turn that edge forwad in a lip so that water would have a harder time getting in.

Having just taken the hatch off 338, I noticed that the ledge could have been cleaner. Somebody had added a puddle of silicone in the turn creating a slope that would have made it easier for water to slosh in. In the Ariel with the cabin liner the water getting in would have entered the liner (there's a 5/8" gap) to endup who knows where in the cabin. Maybe the scuppers in your rails could be larger, if you take a lot of water in the hatch slide area, to exit water faster.

How about a flap of rubber inside on the hatch itself (goes down to the deck, a baffle) that might help keep water going over the ledge when the hatch is closed. With the hatch closed the baffle would rest on the upturn which is right behind the trim. With an added anti-slosh turn in the ledge and free scuppers this might be all you need. Close tolerance fitting of that baffle piece attached to the lid around the metal keepers might help keep wedgie water out. Could be tight enough so the hath would have some resistence to sliding. Rubber might be thick but still pliable - so water won't move it. etc ect tec....


? ? ?

Where you put the reinforcement in the hatch?

[c_amos]

Could be tight enough so the hath would have some resistence to sliding. Rubber might be thick but still pliable - so water won't move it. etc ect tec....

I like this idea, and will do this. I am going the same route, (sea hood, turtle).
Doubt non-sea hood boats would want rubber on the forward edge though, at least not balck rubber for the track marks it might leave on the cabin top (of course not an issue with a sea hood, as it would only be needed on the sides).

My plan is the oak risers, covered in epoxy, with a laminated luan/roving top that would mimic the radius of the hatch.

The one twist, I plan to also cut a radius in the trailing edge, to allow the hood to extend aft, but still allow access below without crawling in like a mole in a hole.

Might anyone have any ideas about stiffing such a radius (radi ?)
I was thinking I could just raise the edge slightly, (good stepping off point for a dodger) but I would like to hear from the panel.

[ebb]

Hello Craig,
I see the laminated seahood as not that much larger than the hatch. It mimics the shape of the hatch, which is a very good little hatch. The hood is there primarily to stop water from getting in under the hatch from forward over the bow, so the hood does not have to go into the companionway space at all. In fact it can terminate forward of the hatch when the hatch is pushed all the way open and even forward of the end of the entire opening - especially if the seahood rises there in an upturned coaming as a water deflecter and attachment for the dodger fabric. Need all the egress space you can get there.

The rubber dam proposal is instead of a seahood. Trying to figure out a way of stopping water from getting below from under the hatch when there is no seahood. Having a seahood is a better idea.

C'pete wants his to be removable. A good idea as it means you can pull maintenance there. Think if you desire a permanent seahood you'ld have to have access hatches to the space. Much more complicated. If you want your instruments/compass over the c'way the design gets more complicated.

Idea in my head for 338 is a strong permanent windscreen with a removable laminated seahood in front of it and a folding or not folding cloth dodger aft.

To keep the profile low, I 'see' (but not well, at the moment) a lid opening in the fabric frame to allow access below. The lid will have to open clear to the windscreen framing. It will be in constant use so it needs to be idiot proof!

[commanderpete]

Sure do like the look of a wooden sea hood. I just lack two things:
a) woodworking skills;
b) power tools.

Decided to go with a fiberglass hood. Used the sliding hatch to form a mold. Extended and squared the sides. Covered it with 1/8" pressboard and then a sheet of plastic.

[commanderpete]

Would probably look better with the sides splayed. But, there's not much room on the cabintop.

I had spent some time at the boat, fussing and figuring about sheet leads and cabintop winch handle clearances. Eventually decided the hood should be as small as possible. Just big enough to get the sliding hatch inside, with a solar panel on top of the sliding hatch. But, I didn't want to build the hood too tight--which would be a disaster.

So, started layng up the glass. Mostly used 32 oz. biaxial cloth with mat attached. Found this stuff on ebay--16 lbs. for $2.50 + $15 shipping. Also used some 12 oz biaxial tape and 9 oz. cloth. This is somewhere in the process, while I'm wetting out the dry spots and rubbing out any air pockets.

[CapnK]

C'pete -

I can almost smell the resin. :)

Re: stiffening - how about a piece or 2 of foam, glassed to the top of the hood athwartships, from hood edge to hood edge? ie; ribs?

Flare the bases wider than the tops to help them blend in. They wouldn't need to poke up very far to do the job, so they would be easy on the eyes, and wouldn't distract from the look of the vessel, I don't think.

[commanderpete]

I let the sea hood cure overnight, turned it over and built up the legs some more.

Then I brought it down to the boat to check for fit. To my horror, I discovered that it was a bit too short and tight in the back. Among other things, I didn't account for the fact that the deck slopes forward, and the hood needs to be higher in the back. A colossal blunder.

Repairs are underway.

I should have also built in some stiffeners, at least near the front door of the "garage" where there is some flex. I need to cure that, because the current plan is to cover this sea hood with strips of wood. Just glue the wood on and belt-sand it smooth.

I really should have taken ebb's advice to build a full scale mock-up. Might have saved me some heartache.

[ebb]

Good on ya, mate! As Geoff might say.

Take it to a shop after you fit it and have them epoxy-glue 5/16" teak strips on it.
Simple - just the top, with black rubber between. Paint the sides and front to match the deck.
Ultra - glue teak on the stand ups too. If shop has teak, you could splay the sides (slightly) at this juncture.
Extreme - if the front is curved have them wood the front as well. Use real black polysulfide for the seams. Gorgeous!
Advantage - not only cosmetic but added wood will stiffen the laminate enough to sit on without deflecting. And stand on without slipping.

If you are using epoxy adding the "front' rib is not a problem, just build a dam, cover with seran wrap and laminate. If you decide to wood it, the rib across could be cut from teak. You do need the crosspiece for strength and anti-drip.

[commanderpete]

Going with an Extreme Makeover ebb. Wood all around.

The front piece of wood will need to be bent. I don't feel like learning the mysteries of steambending for one piece of wood. A guy with an old wooden boat once told me how he bent wood by pouring boiling water over it while bending. Might give it a try. (Might end up with firewood).

Fixed the fiberglass part I think. I glassed in some foam along the inside curve to brace it.

Actually, the whole thing stiffened up after a few days of curing. I stood on it and its rock solid.

I'm going to attach the thing to the boat by driving screws up from underneath. Couldn't decide on a more clever method. I glassed in some 1/2" strips of scrap teak along the bottom of the legs. This way the screws will have something to bite into.

Next comes the unpleasant job of grinding off any sloppy fiberglass.

[ebb]

C'pete,
Looking good there!

Don't have to steam bend thin wood, glue will hold it. Will hold it on a mild curve. A radical curve where you have to bend and hold the curve with clamps, you would put fastenings in at least on the ends. I wouldn't. It is really not possible to plug screw holes in thin teak. Maybe 3/8s thick if you are really careful and have shallow plugs glued in. Remember the resanding/refinishing down the line!

If you have a difficult curve like the front, or the back top over the c'way, you can have the actual curve cut out of thicker stock. It would then have no springback and would never pull away because too much of the glue was squeezed out.

Might glue the harder pieces on first, like the front. And the sides of the flat top, let them set, and come back later to fit and fiddle with the rest - that way you have nonmoving edges to depend on. And you can custom the spaces or trim the pieces.

You can screw convenient blocks to your bare hood where ever you need them to help position the first pieces. You can cheat by predrilling small holes in the teak (do it dry first) for small nails that you pull out later of course. If you do it right you can include a small block of wood or cardboard under the nailhead to hold the teak down like a small clamp. You don't need to drill thru the hood. No holes in the teak by a similar method but using the grooves for the nail holes. You could create a hold down bar across a strip.

Even simpler is double sided carpet tape with the fiberglass core. The glue can be very aggressive, you need the fiberglass one to pull the tape off! Instead of little nails stick battens on with the tape to help positioning and to hold a piece until cure.

Might glue the strips on with 5200, cut off the squeeze out when set and fill the layout spaces with polysulfide caulk. You'll have to reef out the squeeze out in the spaces at just the right time. If you have a rabbet milled along one edge you wouldn't have that problem - you'ld be laying them tight like a yacht deck. But it would be difficult in thin stock and the rubber filler would also be thin and might pull out. The sulfide should be at least 1/4" deep.

Better to glue on plain strips with spacers - scrape groove clean when partially set. Skimp the 5200 to avoid squeeze out. If the little planks are cupped at all put the cupped (slightly hollow) side down. Some tricksters will make a slight hollow down the length of a strip to get more rubber to stay there if they have an easy tool to use. If you have open ends (no cross pieces in your design) on the sulfide make a dam with wax paper and a batten. Screw the batten to the hood and fill the small holes in later.

Rough up the glue side of the pieces to give the epoxy or 5200 good tooth. Especially with teak. Check the one-part polysulfide to see if you need to bloody prime first. Maybe don't have to these days.

IMCO, if covering the whole lamination with teak is too picky. A nicely laid out top of varnished or oiled teak with black stripes with nicely faired and smooth painted laminate sides with radiused corners could look fabulous as well. It would fit better too, for you, on the deck. Right?

Hope some of this is useful. Never know!

[commanderpete]

Thanks for the advice ebb.

Just covering the top would probably look good, if things don't work out otherwise.

I had originally figured on just butting the top pieces together. But, having some goop between the planks would probably hold them better.

Haven't decided whether to use 5200 or thickened epoxy. I dislike 5200 generally, but I wouldn't have to worry about working time.

I have a special supply of old-growth lumber I've been hoarding that should work well for this project.

[ebb]

C'Pete,
You're right about thickened epoxy. One measly tip more. :eek:
Because of the time constraint, you might take a two inch throwaway bristle brush and scrub the same cabosil thickened epoxy you are going to glue the strips on with to both surfaces. Scrub, kill the brush. Then spatula on the thicker layer. If the thickened stuff is loose, not stiff, you won't have to preprime the surfaces with plain twopart. With epoxy the priming step is real important. But is so much easier wetting the surfaces by scrubbing the thickened epoxy on first. No runs too, and less time.

If you use epoxy, you can't really tightly clamp the pieces to the hood, epoxy needs a glue line. But you can be pretty tight if you are cupping the underside of the strips with a grinder along their length. 1/16 to 1/8" in the center, 0" at the edges. This will assure enough glue. Can't forget to use a chisel to scrape the grooves mostly clean of squeezeout while it is still gummy but not sticky - if you're going to sulfide.

Instead of clamps, I'm using Nifty Wrapper sometimes. It's the very thin stretchy 6" plastic roll with a cardboard roll handle. Often with red plastic cap. When stretched it sticks to itself. You'ld wrap it around the whole hood, the more wraps the tighter it gets. Crude vacuum bagging. Cheap, epoxy no stick. :cool:

[commanderpete]

I had been wondering how I was going to clamp that up. Excellent.

Is this the product?

http://www.overcost.com/detail.asp?Product_id=NFTST51

I might get a 20" wide roll and shrink-wrap the boat :cool:

[ebb]

C'pete, mornin,

Should find this stuff at any hardware, many brands - I copied the name off the one I have. Looks a little like a WW1 hand grenade. Don't think there is a 'common' name for the stuff yet. Ask the clerk for shrink wrap or roll wrap. Might find it stocked with the paint tapes. Pin or block the wood so it can't slither around befor you try wrapping. Won't matter if you have stuff sticking up off the wood. like nails or little blocks. When you think you've wrapped it enough, you pull the film until it separates, that also 'locks' the film to itself.

We have those wide rolls on the estate here. Wrap everything: furniture, mattresses, paintings, boxes, records, art pieces, everything that goes into storage. Really works well. You can see what it is that's protected.

Tried it on 338's motorwell blister with wet frp. The wide stuff. With two of us it would have been easier. Got wrinkles (mostly epoxy squeeze out, xmatt didn't pucker), but got the layup (and lap joints) tight to the form as well.

The 6" works great when glueing that kitchen chair back together. Watch it, you can generate a lot of pressure! :cool:

[commanderpete]

Finally got back to this project.

For the lumber I'm using the coaming boards from Commander # 199. They were in pretty bad shape--cracks, repairs, and still had many coats of varnish on them.

[commanderpete]

I blasted off the varnish using an angle grinder with a 40 grit disc. Kinda fun not having to carefully strip wood.

Then I started cutting it up.

[commanderpete]

I'm not really sure what type of wood it is. "Philipine Mahogany" is a generic term that encompasses many varieties (meranti, red meranti, luan etc). Chris Craft used a type of Philipine mahogany called "tanguile" during the 60's.

I figure it will match the rest of the brightwork on the boat.

The wood was 3/4 inch thick. I cut it in half on a table saw. Part of the harvest

[commanderpete]

To cut the wood in half lengthwise I had to make one pass through the table saw, turn the piece over and make another pass.

I screwed up one piece badly. That piece I'm going to cut down and use for the trim on the front edge of the sliding hatch. The original piece (pictured in front) has a good crack in it

[commanderpete]

Time to try bending wood.

I put some 6" ventilation duct in a pot on the stove. Once the steam got rolling I took the rag off the top and suspended the wood in the steam pipe.

Gave each piece of wood about 20 minutes in the steam.

(This is my parents kitchen here. I'm supervising a remodel job over at their house. I use the worker's tools after they go home) :)

[commanderpete]

Quickly took the wood out of the pipe, bent and clamped it as quick as possible over the sliding hatch from Commander # 199. Then wrapped it with Nifty Wrap. I bent it about 25% more than needed to acount for spring back

Next day revealed only partial success. The wood sprang back about 50%.

I'll just have to let the 5200 hold the rest of the bend.

So ends my steambending career

[Mike Goodwin]

I would have steamed it longer , that wood is old and dry and had been coated.
Give it 45 min to an hour . Leave it clamped up for 24 hrs.

[ebb]

How about over bending it by clamping over a single piece laid opposite on the form in the center. Cooked like Chef Mikhale sez, the springback might make it just right.

Steaming requires very fast work. You've lost if you can touch it with your bare hands. Have to clamp it over the form right now. Wood has many pores, it's a kind of insulating material, have get it hot and pliable clear into the center. Whole piece needs equal all over heat. When you see steamers at work: the cooker is producing a whole lot of steam that is coming out of every hole all over the steam box.

With some time and not too many pieces I might bend each one or two individually and clamp each onto a form of slightly less diameter than what you need. Controlled steam bends are often accomplished with metal straps that make even forces over the surface of the work - leads me to think that a nicely bent piece of 3//16s or 1/4" iron could be used as a clamping form. It would be slow but each piece would come off the same. Wouldn't even try to do them all at once.


Some species just don't like to be bent.

[frank durant]

Ebbs last post here made me think ... my ex would get plenty steamed and she wouldn't bend either .....guess I should have boiled more water !

[ebb]

"She was a model of mercy, she never cut me no slack" - attributed to Bobby Hancock. But in your case Frank, you probably didn't keep her hot long enuf.

[Tony G]

I followed CPete's idea and used the old sliding hatch. I made a jig to hold the hatch upside down and act as a form to extend the sides 1 1/4".

When we glassed the 'inside' 3 layers I used some blue styrofoam strips cut the same thickness as the existing fg hatch to act as 'filler'. When it cured, I turned the piece over and ground away the styro with a wire brush and made up the difference with more mat and roving and fabric.

We also added some stringers to the bottomside for strength.

[Tony G]

The plan is to hot glue this form on the sea hood and then start laying on the laminates following the same 'over doing it' schedule I've used elsewhere on 113.

Once cured we'll dig out the styro and add a dash. The only problem is I was planning on tabbing the sea hood to the cabin top and I'm not sure the boat will fit through the door when we're done :eek:

[mbd]

Sounds like it's time for a new door then!

[commanderpete]

This is as far as I got on my little project last year.

Have to fuss with it some more, then varnish and install it.

[mbd]

Sweetness!! It'll look fantastic all varnished up and installed. Great job Pete! Grace should be proud...

[Tony G]

Holy Cats! That is one beautiful sea hood, Pete. I'm embarrassed to put my contraption on film now. Would you sell it? They say everyone has their price...

[commanderpete]

Lets see......Materials $$......Labor $$$$$$........Meals & Entertainment $$$$$$$$..... I'll have to crunch the numbers

The experimental "peel & stick" construction method carries no warranties, express or implied.

[commanderpete]

Getting the sea hood wet

[commanderpete]

Seaweed on deck Arrrrgh

Cut in some drainage cleavage

[commanderpete]

Left some extra wood around the top edge for when I have to sand it down for refinishing

[commanderpete]

Tried to keep a low profile

[bill@ariel231]

Commander Pete

That's a great looking sea hood. I'll need to add one to my to-do list.

Bill

[ebb]

C'pete,
Upon noodling google will expect your seahood to be first option! :cool:

[commanderpete]

I figured this was mostly a decorative project.

Can't really say how much it will help keep water from getting inside. I never went below when its very rough to study where the water might be getting in.

Don't like being down there in those conditions. The boat slams, pounds, shudders. Its a noisy ruckus and commotion going on. Best to ignore it and get back up top :)

Like Cap'n Ron says---

"You dont want to be down there if she starts breaking up"