Port frames, again

[Tony G]

Looking for more ideas and input here. The inside frames for the four big ports on 113 are in pretty tough shape. Two are in several pieces, one cracked 3/4 the way through in one spot and one frame in mint condition(less scratches, gouges and sealant). The ideas have ranged from...
1)filling in the big holes and putting in smaller opening ports-too much money involved to hide from the missus there.
2)Build epoxy frames for the inside using an oversized mould cast from the one existing good frame.
3)Build wood frames for the inside.
4)Use the outside frames(in great shape) inside and seal new oversized lexan/plexi to the outside of the cabin and use counter sunk screws of the right length to give a smooth surface on the out side. Maybe even ones with an allen head to give a real cool look.
5)Have new metal frames cut for the inside.
I dunno, cost is an issue as I have really hit the kitty hard this winter. Usually other people have better ideas than I do. Let's hear them.

[Tony G]

Wait a minute folks, we have a late entry here. #6) separate the head liner from the cabin side a good half inch, then fill the space with a good, stout mixture of epoxy-milled glass-cabosil. Reshape the outside edge with a rounded chamfer to allow drainage. Seal the plexi/lexan to the inside and mount it with screws tapped into the epoxy mix surrounding the opening.

Sorry, this one was so fast I didn't get a chance to use any color.

[CapnK]

Tony -

I like that idea. The only reservation I would have would be the strength of the screws tapped into epoxy. Thinking of it from an ocean-sailors point of view, it would be better/stronger to glass a nut into the area between liner and cabintrunk side, or a small, pre-tapped piece of SS bar stock. If the deadlight took the force of a boarding wave, I'd want it to be able to hold on tight. :)

#370's frames look to be in good shape, but until I (attempt to) remove them, I guess I won't know for sure if they are. Your idea seems eminently workable, and a good alternative to other thoughts I've had about the frames. Thanks! :)

PS - Remember #248, the neglected and abused Ariel I posted about a month or so ago? I needed a part for my old boats diesel, and that yard was the only place around that it was available. While there, I mentioned to the yard owner about buying #248 for the parts of her which still have life - spar, boom, deadlight frames, cleats, etc... His price was high enough that I dismissed the idea, but if others are interested in the parts, maybe I should work a deal with him?

[ebb]

Tony, briefly,
If done carefully and with the correct goop/caulk, bolting the lexan right to the cabin sides and THRU the cabin sides is the way to go, if the original frames are not restorable and we're not going to wait for the bronze Triton patterns to magically appear.

If you choose 1/2" smoked lexan and thru bolted it to Prefilled sides and then crafted a nice wood frame around inside, you would have a bluewater worthy installation with lots of light and much less claustrophobia than the smaller and heavier looking opening ports. Those 4 large deadlights add a lot to the open feeling of the cabin.

You could leave the outside modern with the edge of the lexan showing and bolt heads or machine screws in those cupped washers or make covering wood frames here too. Filling the cabin liner space nets out 1/2" fill, maybe enough to 'lag' the fasteners. It's rediculously easy to make a pattern and rout the dead lights perfect. Or you can have a shop do it, getting them to melt the edge to a flawless perfection.

Whatever you decide make certaing you can pull them 7 years down the line, or sooner if they develop a leak. Which they won't, of course!

I think I'm trying to say that the thrubolted lexan becomes structural with this method. The frames cosmetic.


I'm always reminded of the 'Smeaton Effect' where when you take blue water aboard anything sticking up is likely to get SHEERED off. If your deadlight is held on with a dozen #12 flathead machine bolts and it sticks out 1/2" from the cabin side, I can't see them getting peeled off. Thru bolt!

[Tony G]

I once wrote that while I may never take this boat to the sea shore I didn't want to do any thing that limited her from being sea worthy and capable of off-shore work.

Through bolts certainly would be the easiest, fastest and most secure route to take. But yet I kind of want to avoid that 'industrial' look. Yeah, I've seen alot of boats with them, and, they do have a certain rugged good look to them. But, I've seen alot of boats without them too. Boats with good off-shore pedigrees.

I do like the idea of pre-tapped stainless bar stock. No machining needed that I couldn't do here, at home. Does it even have to be stainless steel? After all, our port frames are made from aluminum, correct? How far do those port frame screws screw into that outside frame? How many screws hold those pieces together? I guess one could make a valid argument that the originals weren't really off-shore grade :o ( 'had to throw a face in there. I hadn't used one in so long :D )

I don't know why I want to extend the rebuild any longer than possible but I like the ideas floating around here. I'm goin' over to Ebb's thread to look around. Anybody here taken apart an Alden lately?

[commanderpete]

They sell different styles of barrel nuts, some flush.

http://www.shipstore.com/ss/html/BEC/BECBB25001.html

[Mike Goodwin]

I agree with Pete , barrel nuts all the way. Most Installations like this , the window is on the outside . I have installed and replaced a few dozen , all from the outside.

[ebb]

These are very cool fasteners. Very overpriced for my money, you're getting the female part only for 65 cents each (100) in chrome/brass. The 10/24 size requires a 1/4" hole to sit in and comes in a couple lengths like 3/8s and 1/2 inches long. You supply the male half.

Sailnet has a pack of 25 10/24 for $8.82 - don't know the length. But you ought to shop around. Jamestown has an 18/8 'stainless' version. At $2.23 a pop!

Since the original deadlights float in the hole between outside and inside frames that clamp together, it's hard to see how you could install the modern frameless slap-on-to-the-cabin-sides version with barrel nuts. Because you have to oversize the holes in the lex to allow for expansion/contraction movement. So you'ld have to go thru some kind of frame first with the correct size barrelnut holes. 338's frames were restorable, and I liked the floating principle of the light. It worked (sort of) even for glass.

The inside frame attached to the matching outside with tiny machine screws. Can't remember, but I mean tiny, like 4s or 5s that went into the blind holes in the outside frame (thru empty space that was more or less gooped with silicone) no more than an 1/8 of an inch. An engineering wonder. The whole unit is really not attached to the cabin sides except for the 'clamping' effect of the frames around no more than one quarter of an inch wide rim of cabin side and liner. Astonishing! The barrel nuts would be perfect with your own made frames with the light 'floating' in the hole.

I guess the Beckson "flush" barrel nut must be a panhead to allow you to apply a finish trim piece over the fasteners. Still have to do something with the head. On a Beckson installation they are probably snap on plastic rims that hide the heads. Normal finish trim would require fastners of its own: flathead screws.

Tony, if the outside frames were the ones that got corroded on your boat, maybe you can fabricate new surrounds out of thicker aluminum (1/4"?) plate. And replicate the original - good luck matching up the fastener holes and blind threading ;)

[Should plan for the longer barrels so you don't have to cut the machine screws to length. That's what I mean: in the original windows those tiny screws had to be exactly right.]

[Tony G]

Yep, the barrel nuts are handy. I like the look on people's face when they realize that there is a screw head on both sides of a piece or panel. That's how I first discovered them. They are a nice, flush alternative to acorn nuts when it comes to the shins-and eyes, I might add.

Ironically, Ebb, the outside frames are in remarkably good shape. There must have been one helluva brawl inside from the looks the outer's partners. There were extra screws added with large washers capturing both halves of the breaks. Tons of sealant. Did I mention all of the sealant? The one good inside frame I use as a pattern to get a graceful curve to carry through on the funiture.

I want to avoid doing any 'outside' machining as I'm turning into a cheap skate (which always means I'll spend more money in the end). I do appreciate everyone's input on the matter. I'm going to sit on this one for a while yet.

[ebb]

Hey Tony,
as you know, I thru drilled the original frames on 338 and countersunk the outside frames where the new holes appeared to take a flat head. You could use the barrel nut with its oval head on the inside and use a flathead machine screw like I'm going to do - because they will sit flat and unimportantly in the roundness of the frame. If the inside frames are truly history then why not make them up out of aluminum or even teak? I think I would find something harder. But with a little trickery you could get the panheads on the barrel nuts to be almost flush too.

One other thing: all Ariel deadlight frames inside and out are exactly the same pattern shape Only because of the tiny screws going into blind holes is there handedness, and pairing, and there's inside/outside. But the point is that the eight frames could be cut, routed, or otherwise manufactured with a single pattern. Could be simplified totally if you thru bolted with a floater. Now I'ld be tempted to cut them out of phenolic mahogany marine ply and paint them, hell they might varnish up real nice too.

You can rabbet the edges of the frames so that they go into the hole a bit to hold whatever thickness glass just so. The original frames do that too. But absolutely nothing holds them to the cabin side. Made frames would be wider and would thrubolt to the other THRU the cabin liner and side. About a thousand times stronger. :eek:

[c_amos]

Ooooohhhhhhhooooo!

That sounds nice.


Now I'ld be tempted to cut them out of phenolic mahogany marine ply and paint them, hell they might varnish up real nice too

[commanderpete]

More design ideas here.

Don't even need curtains

[Tony G]

Pete,

Where do you find this stuff!?! Is that an aft cabin by chance?

Well, I climbed up into 113 last night and idea #6 would never fly. The cabin liner is tight against the cabin around the port holes. Never be able to slide 1/4" or 3/8" stainless in there. Oh well, I guess we just saved some money :o

On to more fruitfull ideas.

[ebb]

It's a real surprise that the liner would be tight to the inside of the cabin molding. Check to see if the frames of your deadlights have pulled the much thinner liner tight around the holes. Shining an oblique light over the surface will show it as obvious concavity. It would take tremendous force to pull the liner tight to the sides. I wonder if the 3/8 to 1/2" space has been filled by a former owner? I can't believe Pearson had ANY close tolerances with the cabin liner. It was just stuck in there and cinched tight in a couple places. (Under the bridge deck and on top of the compression beam. In 338 it was hardly attached under the side decks where swags had developed because the molding had been pulled out of shape when they installed.)

Original window was glass. Don't think it would have bent to conform to the curve of the cabin if the space wasn't there between the line and the cabin side. The frames would bend to the curve but the glass would 'float' in the caulking nearly flat. Would need room for that. There is very little adjustment possible with those bitty screws they used to clamp the inner frame to the outer frame. They would have had to custom a lot of screws to get a tight fit to skinnier sides. I wonder what you have there???

On 338, total filled thickness of the hole at the deadlights is 1/2 to 5/8". I spent some time fairing the liner to the cabin sides with shims. I think I got it pretty good. The liner is very bent out of shape anyway because it is yanked by fastenings at all points. (hand rails, hatch stiles, companionway framing, coaming logs, winches, fairleads, whatever) I've always felt they just JAMMED it in til they got REFUSAL. (Can't you see a couple guys in there holding it up with their heads til they got it propped in four places - sort of?) They needed a pretty loose fit.

{It is possible that someone in an attempt at stopping leaks has pulled the liner over to the sides and glued it! He or she couldn't have got it closed at the top of the holes because of the definite molded curve there. Might be a clue looking here. If this is the case, I would see if the two could be cut apart, separated and filled - what I believe is the right and stronger way.] :eek:

[Tony G]

Ebb,

I'll juice up the camera and try to get some pictures of the afflicted area tonight. It's tight in most spots and then pretty generous in others. A consistent gap is what I need, and, with more exploration I'll know if it's achievable. Hey, it's gonna be 34 or 35 ABOVE zero today. Spring is just around the corner and I gotta get crackin'.

[ebb]

C'pete -
after exhaustive research has come up with a true
low maintenance varnish job we can all transpire to

[commanderpete]

I've got an eye for a pretty boat. This beauty takes port installation up a notch

[Mike Goodwin]

Looks like two frogs mating!

[Tony G]

So, Mike, you detest frogs...

Ebb,

Here's some pictures of the gap between the cabin top and liner. Is it close to what you found on 338? You said you shimmed it out about even then filled it in. What was the proceedure? Unthickened followed by your favorite blend of thickeners? How'd you sand or grind in the gap? We're on the edge of something really big here.

[Bill]

Tony, there are photos posted in Ebb's photo gallery that show how he handled them on 338 . . .

[ebb]

Tony, Your photos show your liner very phat in places and in others pretty much like 338s, about 1/8" thick. In ebb's gallery there is a befor and after of the port forward deadlight. Pg 5 - #65, and after, Pg 9 - #125. The second shot shows that I filled the space a little too wide in the vertical/up part of the hole.

What I did was play with shims and squeeze clamps until I thought I had a pretty even space all around. Adjusted it, and decided that 1/2" was the spacing, outside to inside. With the deadlights out you can eyeball the liner by sticking yer head half out to see if your tweeking of the liner is correct.

What you are looking for is consistency. What ever it is, say, 1/2" , or 5/8". or 7/16" it should be the same outside to inside ALL AROUND.

It's obvious with your eccentric liner that your space will change but the finished thickness after you've filled will be the same everywhere. This is VERY important if you are using the original fastening method for the lights. Because of the squeezability of the original vs the 'rigid' nature of the filled sides you may have to find new length fastenings.

You show a couple of photos where both the liner and the cabin side is floppiest, right there in the middle. I would take my clue from the top horizontal as a start, because you will not be able to move the liner much up there and the cabin not atall. So starting at the top on both sides of the boat start jamming in, taking out, shims and use the squeeze clamps to bend other parts of the liner to a smaller space. Just see what you get. The closeness of the center section between the deadlights I don't think means too much. You want to get this area to be like the rest. My liner was bendable. And when all shimmed and spaced I thought it looked much more fair, really. And now filled it really does look good. Except for the booboo Bill took a photo of!

You have to grind out ALL remains of silicone. Use a dremel tool and get it clean. Edjucate one of your fingers to feel for rubber, it must all be destroyed! Take a piece of 1/4" plywood (3/16" phillipine doorskin is perfect) and make a small paddle onto which carpet tape a piece of clothbacked (the majenta stuff) 36 grit sandpaper. Do NOT use sandpaper, which will tear apart. And sand the hell out of the inside of both the cabinside and the liner. Scuff it up real good. After you know what your spacing is going to be, take all spacers out, and jam the liner open where you have to to work on it.

Get 20' of grey polyethylene foam 'backer rod'. It comes in 3/8 and 1/2" diameter. You can get it where concrete is sold. It's dirt cheap and epoxy won't stick to it. I pushed it in to the space about 2 1/2 to 3". You are creating a backer dam for the epoxy/cabosil gel between the liner and cabin, so you don't endlessly pump in expensive gel. Creating a WATERPROOF inner frame thru which fastenings* will go. You probably don't have to go so deep. I used 2 oz syringes to squirt the gel in. Maybe a pastry chef's squeeze bag will work too. You are giving the side of the cabin a bone structure, and it comes out STRONG.

The trick for me was to reset all the spacers (you can see in #125 I trusted my 'eye' and got too casual) and just tack the cabin/liner into its new form. let it set and come back later to do the whole shebang without the shims and clamps in yer face.

You must wet (prime) the inside surfaces with plain epoxy. I just jammed a wet bristle brush, not dripping, into the space and then squirted a pad of gel in right after. My tacs held and when I came back next day I took time to prewet the inside: acid brushes, pieces of cardboard. A putty knife with cotton bent over it held in hand for both getting juice in the narrow space and to soak the runs up. Moist, if it's too wet the gel will fall out! And had a good ole grouvy time squirting gel. My gel mix is like soft peaks in eggwhites. when you stop mixing and lift the paddle the shape doesn't move in the bucket. But you want it soft enough to load the syringe (messy) and get it out the nozzle. J u s t enough cabosil. :D

[I use a 100% solids no blush laminating epoxy with a slow hardner that you can work down to 40 degrees. Doing this filling is kind of pains taking. Vere sensitive to pain. I like to stop and come back later. Lunch, sleep, vacation. If you used a blush epoxy in the method described you could not dewax the surface in the groove. Why would you want to wet down your work anyway? Don't buy junk epoxy systems no matter how expensive they are. My brand is (Premium Marine) TAP Plastics, because they're right down the street. Never had a problem with the stuff. They ship but don't know nutting 'bout that. Best of luck.]
*Original deadlights do not have the fastenings go thru the laminate - they clamp around the hole and essentially 'float' there along with the glass. :eek:

[Bill]

FYI - there are 22 fasteners in each window frame :eek: