Navigation Lights

[commanderpete]

Well, my stern light has gone kaput. Turns out the interior contacts got corroded and broken. Anybody know if the guts of these lights are still sold somewhere?

I would like to keep the old fitting instead of buying a new stainless steel Perko (which would probably be the sensible thing to do). I need to replace that old wire too.

While I was procrastinating, I ran out and bought a portable stern light made by Aqua Signal. I only get about 4 hours of light for 4 batteries. But man, this light is bright.

I always wondered if the running lights on our old boats are as powerful as they should be. It seems alot of power boats out there have real bright running lights.

Maybe the working part of a new light will fit inside the old housing?

[Bill]

The internal electrical parts are standard. I picked up a bulb socket fitting from the local chandlery that fit fine. You do, however, have to break the solder fastening used to attach the socket to the light fixture.

[Theis]

My recollection is that the fitting (the entire assembly) is a standard Perko light, the same as you have. Only the insides have been changed to accept the new style light bulbs. You can replace it, if I recall without new screw holes. double check that for I may be wrong but don't think so.

[commanderpete]

A question came up on another thread about fixing navigation lights.

There could be a number of reasons why the the light doesn't work. The source of the problem is often corroded terminal ends or the socket.

You can try cutting back the wire a bit and making fresh connections, but its probably better just to run new wire.

The socket can be replaced with a standard brass "double contact bayonet socket". Often the old brass socket will have fused into the bronze housing, making removal difficult. If it really won't come out, you can punch the bottom out of the old socket and shove a plastic double contact bayonet socket in there. Its a little smaller than the brass one.

That's about all I know.

[Jim Rester]

On old Commander 80 there is a fishing float sticking out of a hole in the cabin just forward of the cockpit to Starboard. In a corresponding hole on Port there is a nifty little red light.

I am going to go out on a limb here and guess that berfore I'm done I'll need a nifty little green light.

We are trying to do stay as close to original as possible. Does anyone have a source?

Thanks ~ Jim

[Bill]

Jim,

Original hardware for Ariels, Commanders, Triton's and etc., is no longer available. We do have a lead on the original patterns and a navel architecture school that may get possession. (Search on "Ronstand" for more info.) But, this is turning out to be like going through probate . . .

Meanwhile, you can try finding an early Pearson that is headed for the chainsaws and bid on the light fixtures. BTW - I'm looking for an original stern light, in case you find one ;)

[Tony G]

Is this the 'stuff' you guys are refering to?

[Bill]

Yes, that's the original Pearson hardware.

[Tony G]

Make me an offer. I can't refuse. :D

[Bill]

Do you have the lower half of the stern light? (I'm ok on the running lights.)

[Tony G]

Bill,

I'll try to find the lower half of the stern light. It must be somewhere around here in one of these boxes. When we picked up 113 she had nav lights on the pushpit and pulpit so the original equipment wasn't in use anymore. The pevious owner was pretty good about not throwing anything away. Meaning she was fully loaded with stuff. I hesitate to call any of it junk.

Anyways, I'll look for it-it's yours for showing interest. Tony G

[willie]

I need some help with the lights guys...
and they say the only stupid question is the one you don't ask so, when do i need to turn on nav. lights, and which ones.... also, if i'm anchored somewhere, is a lantern in the backstay ok?
Is the one about 10' up on front of the mast called the steaming light? I've only been out after dark one time, came in with flashlight, sweeps, sheets...by myself. Learned to head back sooner!

Anyway, if i need that light when i'm out past curfew, i need a new one. Last one had been pieced together a few too many times, so i just took it off and retired it.

I thought that since Santa brought me a new Minn Kota to try out for marina maneuvers i better get the lights working. I guess you can call it being under power.(attn. cmdrpete) Will be interesting to see how it works. The sweeps are fine, but sure would be a lot simplier to have that thing in the well. Getting old and lazy. I need something for locking through the dams too on our summer river cruise. Can't wait! Happy new year. :cool:

[commanderpete]

The light on the front of the mast is the "steaming light." Its used when the boat is propelled by "machinery." A boat under oars shows the same lights as a boat under sail.

There is no required place for an anchor light. Its supposed to be an all-around white light, visible for two miles and displayed "where it can best be seen."

[Bill]

A good addition to anyone's sailing library is Chapman Piloting, Seamanship & Small Boat Handling. Very complete discussion of lights in chapter 6, "Navigation Lights and Day Shapes." Elbert S. Maloney is the editor. Publisher is Hearst Marine Books.

[Theis]

I have some good news for all of you, unless something has changed in the last year or two, and I don't think it has.

Those are all Perko fittings, and when I rehabed my little puppy, I replaced the port and starboard lights with the Perko - they are the same as the originals except for the type of light bulb - and I may have replaced the stern light as well. Even if Perko no longer carries them (which I think they do), they might have some that are bright and shiny lying around.

If you can't find them, let me know and I'll look up their catalog number.

[Bill]

Peter, see page 79 of the manual. It has a reproduction of a portion of page 15 from Rostand Mfg Company's Marine Hardware Catalog #20 (their last).

As you know, this company supplied Pierson until the 1970's. The "side lights" are catalog #54, the "stern light" is cat #56 and the "bow light is cat #52. I assume that there is no patent protection on these styles of light fixtures :) which is why Perko may have something similar. Got photos?

[Theis]

Lookig at the 2004 West Master Marine Catalog, on page 697, the side lights are either West 281147 and 268518, Perko No. 0955oP0CHR and 1264DP0CHR (They are sold in red/green sets and I can't recall which of those two sets is the right size), and the stern light is West 257162, Perk No. 0965DP0CHR. They are also available, I believe, from Defenders

They visually look the same, but the gasketing and the interior lamp design is improved over the original lights. And yes, they are bright shiny chrome.

[Sprite]

I just wanted to start a thread on this item because I found
a person who does exact copies of the Navigation Lights
that you see in the Rostand Catalog in the manual. You know the side lights
and that winged stern light. I found out that they are based on
Herreshoff (sorry about the spelling) templates. This does not surprise
me because Pearson was based out of Bristol, Rhode Island. They
took over the old Herreshoff site in Bristol. They are made of Bronze
and have a special coating so they never deteriorate or patina. I found
this guy in a Wooden Boat magazine he is based out of Hull, Massachusetts.
If anyone is interested add to this thread and I'll post the information on this
thread. :cool:

[Bill]

Might be a good idea to have the contact information. Someone could measure the originals on our boats and then check to see if the ones being offered were similar in size.

[mbd]

Does he do other hardware too?

[Sprite]

Yes pulley systems that look like older systems but made with modern alloys.
He has a catalog. His name I think is Jim Reinbeck and he will send out a catalog. He did some historical fittings for a Herreshoff named Joyner. I think
he has made his reputation on historical replicas. But if you see the lights on
this they are mind blowing they look exact. Especially the wings. I have my originals. I am also going to put in LEDs in those bayonet sockets I got info on that too. Less amprage is that right spelling and No replacements. Gotta love it especially when electricity is at a premium. :D


John

[SkipperJer]

Please share Reinbeck's contact information as soon as you can. My lights are trashed and I'd prefer the traditional design.
Thanks.

[Sprite]

The info is as follows:

The company is J.M. Reineck & Son

The contact is Jim Reineck

The work # is 781-925-3312
The fax # is 781-925-8984

Email is sales@BronzeBlocks.com (I don't think it works.)

I think the website is http://www.BronzeBlocks.com it looks like it has not
been updated in a while.

The address is 9 Willow Street
Hull, MA 02045-1121

Best method of contact is call the work # you will hit an answering machine
leave your name address and tell him you want a catalog. It took me a couple of weeks to get so don't become worried if it isn't in three days.

There is something else I would like to mention the lights Stern and Port and
Starboard Side Lights are not inexpensive!! They are $125.00 a piece.

I want to get them because if they fit or if holes or have to be modified a bit
they still look more authentic and closer to the originals, but using more modern techniques. My bulbs are are all dead. I am replacing with Leds they have some at West Marine for Bayonet Sockets. and there is a website
superbrightLed.com I think that is what it is but check it in google. Best of Both worlds you know and god knows we could use less maintenance!!!
:D

[Sprite]

Sorry about original spelling it is Reineck not Reinbeck


John :rolleyes:

[mbd]

:eek: Great stuff, but holy hell! I'll have to wait until I win the lottery...

[Sprite]

Yeah I was worried about the monetary concerns myself. ;)

[Sprite]

Maybe we could work on a group rate. There are at least a thousand ariel boats
and a lot of tritons ensigns and so on with all their associations and take the price down.


John
:D

[mbd]

I understand these guys do pretty good work as well... Spartan Marine (http://spartanmarine.com)

[Theis]

I replaced all my navigational lights with Perko lights. They are identical to the original navigational lights, with updated lighting assemblies internally. The price might be kinder as well. Let me know if anyone needs the Perko numbers. As I recall, they are shown in the West catalog.

[Sprite]

Which Perko and the sternlight. How about the steaming light and the
360 degree masthead any suggestions. What have people used.

John

[Theis]

The sidelights are in the current West catalog at hte lower left corner of page 696. I don't recall whether the dimensions are 4 1/4 long or 5 1/2 " long but you can probaably figure that out. Perko No 0955DP0CHR or 1264DP0CHR. I think I used the 0965DP0CHR on the same page for the stern light - although it does not have the "wings".. For the mast I used the combvination Deck/Masthead light (West catalog page 702) Forespar #132000 The masthead light, same page, Davis#3310 in lower left corner.

I used the Davis light because I do a considerable amount ofr anchoring out and the low power drain and automatic on/off is very advantageous. For evening sailors in crowded waters, a brighter masthead light might be more advantageous.

Hope this helps. You might want to get a Perko Catalog. They might have some lights that are not in the West catalog. Let me know if you need any other info.

[Robert Lemasters]

I replaced the old damaged Pearson port and starboard running lights with new Perko LED lights. I found them unsatifactory, sent them back to the factory because the chrome came off of one and both of them had water condensation inside. That was two weeks ago after exchanging emails and I have yet to recieve replacements. The LEDs draw less amps and seem to put out brighter light than the orginal units. I just hope that these lights are not another example of good old traditional American products that were so dependible being manufactured in Mexico or Communist China, if so I will look for old USA made replacements. :mad:

[Bill]

Here is another photo of the cabin side running lights. (see post # 4) Note the Sea Dog plastic replacement globes that are available at your local chandlery. These need their sockets knocked out and replaced. Probably will "switch" to LED bulbs . . . :rolleyes:

[Sprite]

If you look at West Marine's catalog the new one, I noticed they have bayonet LEDs, which can fit into the bayonet sockets of your old lights where the GE 90's would go. They sell them for $40 clams. But you can get them from url]http://www.superbrightleds.com[/url] for $8.00 found them out in Boat Works Magazine :cool:

[Sprite]

Bill,

You don't have to change the sockets on your old lights. You get the bayonet LEDs from superbright LEDS. Your old sockets are fine!!!!! But do you know a place that sells the rubber gaskets that fit the glass globes. They have the bayonet LEDs in West Marine but they are asking $40.00 for them. Totally ridiculous. http://www.superbrightleds.com does it for $8.00 per light.

More Sane :D


John

[Bill]

But do you know a place that sells the rubber gaskets that fit the glass globes.

No source for these, to my knowledge. I plan to fabricate new ones. Maybe use "O" rings. :confused:

[Theis]

Question: How well do the LEDs relate in terms of brilliance to the incandescents?

I don't want to diminish either the brilliance of the light or the angle at which they can be seen. The lights are relatively low to the water to begin with. I am not certain the big 1,000 ft freighters, not to mention the cigarette boats racing around at midnight, can see them that well.

[Mike Goodwin]

Not all , if any are USCG approved . Approval = x lumens at y feet or yards . LEDS tend to be not as bright and more directional . I have replaced all interior lights with LEDS , but hanging back on the running lights . I have a photometric light meter , left over from a previous life, that can take spot readings from sources and surfaces far away . I may do a test in the future . Also get a red bulb and a green bulb , they will not be filtered by the lenses and will appear brighter .

[Theis]

Interesting. The reason I ask about brilliance (in addtion to my experiences with LEDs in the business world) is that this year I replaced my Saturn bulkhead compass with the ITT/Danforth/Rule bulkhead compass. (They are the same compasses but the company(s) have been through a few mergers - hence the different names). The new and old compasses are largely identical, except that the incandescent bulb on the old unit has been replaced by an LED. What a piece of junk. You can hardly read the card on the new one, whereas the old one you could read from several feet away.

I have heard for many years the expression "but the new stuff doesn't have the problem the old stuff you are familiar with" and "the technology has really improved" and more often than not wound up disappointed. I have concluded that most of the the users of those expressions has no first hand experience with the old stuff. That is why I still prefer film cameras.

[Mike Goodwin]

I have a Nikon I purchased in 1969 ( and several newer ones including a Nikonos that is my boat camera) and I have a Nikon D-70 digital SLR I purchased in Feb of 2004 , I have shot one role of film since the D-70 arrived . Nikon got it right and I have felt no need to shoot film anymore , getting better prints from the digital .

[Bill]

I have a Nikon I purchased in 1969 . . . and I have a Nikon D-70 digital SLR I purchased in Feb of 2004. Nikon got it right and I have felt no need to shoot film anymore . . .

Thanks for the info. I understand the D-70 will accept Nikkor lenses, but I assume you have to go to manual when using them. :confused:

[Mike Goodwin]

Depends on the lens , some older ( like most of mine ) yes ,you must go manual. All but a few of the older lenses will work with it too!

[ebb]

If I understand these posts correctly: 2 mile, maybe even three mile led lights are here already.
Orca Green Marine can set you up with a tricolor with various options for between $240 to $370 for a tricolor/anchor with a photo sensor to turn it on and off and strobe. And if I recall, it's no taller than a can of 8oz pineapple slices. [a little taller]
Stecktronics have more reasonably priced light inserts for existing AquaSignal fixtures.
svhotwire carries led replacements for incandescent 15mm bayonet bulbs. And the Sea Sense line of dome lights, strips and recessed lights.
Haven't compared any prices. Here's a young business attempting to do it all for you.

Led's are available for almost everything on deck and below. The people I ran into at the boatshow are
www.svhotwire.com
They were so new they didn't have a brochure.

If you already have a plain ole anchor light on the mast top, an outfit called GreenRay (Deep Creek) makes an led 'bulb' they call a light-engine you can retro for a mere $495. For cryinoutloud!

Somewhere I saw an even flatter (pineapple can sized) tricolor light out of sweden or denmark. led's is the only way to go. If anyone establishes a relationship with svhotwire let us know, ok?

[Tony G]

LEDs are expensive, there's no doubt about that. But there is the trade off of being energy efficient, and, we all know how expensive energy is. As new, improved products hit the market I'll seriously think about 'outside' lights. Yes, there are a couple of approved masthead lights out there, but, until the public demands the products and pays for the R&D the market won't grow to include the product we want.

Anyway, that's enough of my blab for one night. Found these guys somewhere./www.superbrightleds.com/

[Sprite]

Mike,

So you go with the Red and Green for the Side Lights.

For anyone what is the best way to get the socket out any particular tool.

John :)

[commanderpete]

Punch out the plastic bottom of the socket. You might be able to pry some of the old brass socket out of the bronze housing, but its probably fused in there. Have to grind it out.

I found some grinding attachments at the Dollar Store to use in a drill.

Or else they might have a dremel attachment of the right size, maybe something like this

[Sprite]

Commander Pete

Fortunately I have the tool which you attached.

To everyone, I have found that if you go to Perko or West Marine for LEDs you will pay top dollar speaking in hundreds for the unit. and forty to seventy for special bayonet bulbs. 8 dollars at superbright. and guys I got it from Boat Works.

John :confused:

I thought we were trying to keep things on the cheap!!!! :eek: :) :mad: ;)

[Hull376]

Gang, I've been absent from posting. Sorry.

I replaced the bulbs in my Running Lights with double contact bayonett LED bulbs purchased online from www.Superbrightleds.com (see previous posts) I have the original Bronze / Chrome hardware that is pictured way up in the front of this thread. Some tips for those of you contemplating this:

I found that although the Superbright LED #1142 wide angle bulbs fit just fine within the glass colored lenses, they could not be depressed quite far enough into the socket bases to allow me to twist them and lock them in place. So, I had to buy new bulb base inserts, remove the old ones, and install the new ones inserted slightly farther into the fittings. The old bases were soldered into place too low in the sleeve-- ok for a GE-90 bulb, but the collar on the 1142 LEDs bottomed out too soon when pushing them in.

I found that the easiest way to get the old bulb base sockets out of the fitting was to soften the solder, heat up the fitting on the gas range (please hold with pliers or something) until toasty, then put the fitting on the vice and hit the edge of the bulb socket from the inside with a flat blade screwdriver (move around the bulb base edge from the inside). All other methods I tried just wasted time. The stern light was fused together and it still parted fairly easily after the heat treat. Heat is the ultimate. I polished the inside of the fittings after taking the old bases out to make it easy to insert the new ones and allow me to adjust them. And BTW, the old silicone gooped on these fittings was still soft. That stuff will outlast any dinosaur fossil.

I used a little Gorilla glue to hold the new bases in place at the right position (Double contact bases don't need electrical contact from the base itself). Make sure that when the bulb is inserted that you can still put the lens cap in place all the way until it seats with the gasket, that you can still depress the bulb and twist it into place, and that you can still access the two set screws in the bulb base that hold the wires in place.

These lights are very bright and cost $6-$9 depending on the type. Worth it if you need to conserve power and do a lot of sailing at night. Otherwise, buy a subscription to a good sailing magazine and stick with the GE-90s for a buck apiece.

[commanderpete]

Excellent Kent. I'm going to go this route. Those incandescent bulbs are a terrible drain on the battery. What bulb sockets did you end up using?

Anybody have an idea for gasket material? I need something for under the globe. Also under the stern light fixture itself (I notice the steaming light has a gasket under it).

[ebb]

Major marine catalogs think that real sailors don't need to make their own gaskets.
Auto supply has only engine related gasket sheet.
If you invent a company name for yourself (SV Bluenose, eg) I bet you can order from McMasterCarr. They have miles of foam and rubber sheet in all kinds of thickness in synthetic and natural rubber, much of it potential gasket material.
Much you can get in one foot squares, sometimes you have to get a square yard. Some of it is pricey, some very cheap.
High strength Weather Resist 40A (relatively compressible) EPDM rubber 12" X 12", $5.24. might be useful.
EPDM is an inexpensive outdoor rubber. It does not come closedcell foam by itself, but blended with other rubber.
Blends of neoprene,SBR, EPDM is the most common commercial closed cell gasket material with moderate resistance to fuels and weather. EPDM holds up better outside than neoprene (door gasket) but should not be in direct sunlight.

ECH, epichlorohydrin, is a closed cell rubber that will do moderately well with fuel and has excellent resistance to sunlight, heat, oxidation, weather, ozone. Gets my vote for all-round versatility.


Ionomer foam sheet reads good. Doesn't come thinner than 3/16" and they make buoys out of it. You want weather (Ozone, UV) resistant. Closed cell foam would give a firm more compressible gasket. But you have to get rubber that is rated for compression recovery. In other words, material that won't easily take a set and get tired while sealing a fitting. Don't want to compress any foam gasket more than 20% to 30%. MCMCarr has good charts and a bit disappointing explanations of uses.
And its a trip. You can start it on Page 3316!

HYLOMAR UNIVERSAL BLUE is a polyester-urethane gasket dressing that is a NON-SETTING compound you can use around the boat for other things you need to take apart later, and galvanic separation.
Idea is to fill the mini imperfections between the gasket and the fiberglass and/or metal surface. Better leak insurance than just depending on tightening up a dry gasket joint.

Believe it's distributed by Permatex and available in Permatex displays at the auto supply.
It's good for water and fuel and is NOT SILICONE based.

Don't have to scrape this dressing to get it off - easily removed with acetone.
As I see it, while synthetic gasket rubbers are getting longer lived, they still have to be replaced once in a while, especially electric fittings - so why not make it easy on ourselves.

Cut out thinner gaskets with X-acto knife and cardboard patterns. For round gaskets I just got a General gasket cutting tool that does inside and outside diameters at the same time. Some rubber like EPDM slithers around under pressure. You will notice in the online McMCarr catalog that some sheet is textured - this obviously is to create some tooth and to hold gasket dressing better for watertightness.
Foam stays put better for a seal. Dressing helps. You can get some dressing that acts like an adhesive and keeps the gasket from moving. May be necessary on freestanding fittings that capture the gasket only with fastening holes. Want the flange of the fitting to create a groove in the gasket, so some set is needed, that's why I lean toward closedcell foam material.

[Hull376]

Pete,

I used the generic WM bases---- might have been anchor. Try inserting the LED before replacing the bases--- you may get lucky with one being in the right position. Be sure to use a red and a green bulb / port stb, not white. Finally, LEDs are doped semiconductors "P and N" doping material, the electrons jump only one way to product the light. This means that it matters which way the wires are hooked up. Put the LED bulb into the base, then test the wires to see which way will light up the bulb. Switch the wires if it doesn't light. It won't hurt the LED if you get it wrong first try. And be carful you don't drop anything taking things apart---- those little screws will easily find their way into the drink.

[Rico]

Hey all:
I have ordered a selection of different LED replacement lightbulbs from 'Mastlight.com'. Their LED bulbs are 12v DC making them simply 'Plug & play' in most of our basic systems. No need to modify wriring or add gizmos.

I will be trying some different bulb types for the original Pearson factory navigation lights as well as interior lighting and steaming light. (My mast mounted steaming light is not an original fixture.)


I will post the results of my fit test and recommendations based on my results here once I receive the LEDs and try them out. I've been looking for this sort of product to complete my recently re-plated original nav light installation, so I am looking forward to getting these bulbs.

If there is interest in a group buy, let me know and I'll look into this. I had a nice chat with the guy that runs the shop and discussed the possibility of adding a custom page on his web site for Members of the Pearson Ariel/Commander association in order to make the search and purchase simpler & easier.



If you want to look around the website is: http://www.mastlight.com

The website is nicely set-up to search for the type of bulbs needed, and it also lists many replacement bulbs for the most common nav light fixtures out there.

Most importantly, this vendor has insight into the boating and has taken the specific marine use of his LEDs into account (including the right height for the typical fixtures' lens, and degree of visibility) something that most other LED vendors take for granted. (most are set-up to cater to the gaudy show-car/motorcycle, etc. markets...)

In the past, I've asked a few current commercial LED marine nav light manufacturers for help in my desire to retrofit my original fittings with an LED. Several of them stated that it was just impossible, and that I would be non-compliant with the Coast Guard and recommended that I buy their fancy fixtures... (most of which would look silly on a Commander!) even though the acknowledged the market demand for a simple replacement bulb...



Some FYI:

Are LED Bulbs approved by the USCG ?
Following the existing regulations, only the light housing (Fixture assembliess) are subject to an official approval (it must have the right color, be tinted in the mass and resist to ageing). Luminous sources must not get an agreement. However, lights must conform to the International Regulations of the IMO, which specifies the visibility distance of navigation lights.

- Since our lights' degrees-of-visibility are determined by actually blocking out the light from view, (note the wings on the stern light fixture for example) I think that the use of LEDs is perfectly fine in the case of our (or similar) fixtures. If a nav light relies on lens refraction for its precise degrees of visibility, then you might have a issue with the actual location of the light source. Not the case with our fixtures.

- It is recommended that you use COLORED LED bulbs as required for nav lights.(i.e. LEDs that emit RED / GREEN light as opposed to white light)

The reason that the colored LED bulbs are better is that the colored light emitted by the LED is more closely compatible with the tint of the glass /plastic filter thereby allowing MORE of the LED's available light to pass through the filters. (i.e. - they seem BRIGHTER).


As it turns out the original bulbs (incandecent) are: #90 Bulb bayonet type with opposing pins and two terminals on the bottom. Overall length 1-3/8 (Pictured below).
One Mfr number is: 90 12v 6CP - if you want to buy the incandecent version replacements.

[ebb]

Thanks RICO - great info.

Here on the ranch LEDs are going in everywhere. Even had some 120/120s overheating their cans in the kitchen ceiling that were changed out with LED 'bulbs' of equal intensity. Often had to change burnouts, now have lights that essentially will outlast ME.

Have the sneakin suspicion that designed in obsolescence is comming soon.
Manufacturers will have to factor out the 'forever' in LEDs to sell more product.
Maybe NOW is the time to make the change to LED.


Want to have total LED on littlegull. Including navigation.
Have read that under 65 footers are limited to 2 mile lights. I think cruising warrents at least three mile. I'm pretty sure that brighter lights are safer and not exactly measurable. Guess we'll find out.

Thanks for the site to explore.
The Orca $400 LCD TriAnchor Light with Photodiode & Strobe that I last looked at is WAY too pricey - so a incandescent change out in an old style fitting looked pretty good. Have to find out.
Believe that while the LED will last forever it is the wiring and connections that still is un gran problema.
I understand that motoring requires lights at deck level PLUS an all white up top???. Can that be the anchor light?
The Orca site doesn't make clear whether their masthead is compose with white LEDS or colored. Makes sense that a red light should be a red LED, etc.

Check out the Fiji based
www.bebi-electronics.com/reflections.html
They have an innovation on an allround white for the AquaSignal Series 40.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________


Has anybody here converted an AquaSignal 40 series masthead to LED?

Does the BebiElectronics allround white addition seem appropriated to you?

How have you wired it?

Can some sort of strobe function be added to the anchor white light?

[Tim D.]

I have been seeing more and more satisfied Bebi customers. Most have been getting the "Owl" anchor light. When I get to that point, that is the way I plan to go.
I am going to replace the bulb in my masthead (steaming) light with LED

[carl291]

I bought a couple of great nav. lights on EBAY from a company in Sydney, NSW for a pittance really about 20 bucks with shipping. This is for the complete light with the housing and wiring. Painted housing (plastic) stainless was about $45.00
Jag Trading Online was the supplier.
I'll bag a photo if anyone is interested, I think it's a nice looking light.

[Commander 147]

Carl do you have a website link?

[carl291]

http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/jagtradingonline_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_ipg Z (http://motors.shop.ebay.com/merchant/jagtradingonline_W0QQ_nkwZQQ_armrsZ1QQ_fromZQQ_ipg Z)

They have a pair ending in 4 hrs. $9 plus shipping, they also have the stainless on auction. The shipping time seemed less than a package from CA to GA.

Hope this helps. Carl

[Commander 147]

Thanks Carl

[carl291]

I just got a EM from Jamestown Distributors about nav. lights on sale,
The Perko lights very similiar to the ones on Pearson boats are $71.97. I don't think they are LED.

[Westgate]

Just wanted to say that we are into our second Orca Marine masthead light (first one went toe to toe with a lightning bolt and lost) and I can't say enough about them. They are very well made and provide a very, very bright light. Arthur's anchor light outshines every other anchor light that we have seen. My wife and I always note after a row ashore if there is a brighter light in the anchorage.....to date we have not seen one. The power draw is minimal and they are simple to install (if your mast is down!).

Yes they are not cheap but I think the old saying about getting what you pay for applies here. I would not hesitate to buy another although I'm hoping that that will never be the case!

I also plan to upgrade the lower steaming lights to LEDS as well. I can run for days using the masthead and not notice a ding in the batteries.

Andrew

[Rico]

I have tested a number of different bulbs as an LED replacement for the original Pearson fixtures - with very good results, I am happy to say...

The vendor I've worked with is 'Mastlight.com'. If you want to place an order or just look around the website is: http://www.mastlight.com

:) :) :) :)
Hans, who operates the site has provided a COUPON CODE for use by Pearson Ariel /Commander owners; (or people lurking here!) Simply enter 'Pearson' in the space provided on the order form. This will apply a discount on your order.

Note that I get NO comissions, nor do I have ANY involvement with the vendor at all. I am simply providing this for Ariel /Commander owners reference because this vendor's products fit our fixtures nicely and he was willing to offer a discount for the group.






Here is some insight into the products I found work really well:



Original Pearson Navigation Lights:
For these fixtures I ordered RED and GREEN bulbs model 'BA15D Stacking D27LED Red' and 'BA15D Stacking D27LED Green'
*** Be sure to specify the 'Tall' version as these are about 1/4" taller and a much better fit in the fixture socket than the 'standard' version which sit a bit too low. You can see the 'tall' bulbs installed in my fixtures below in Picture #1

(See posts above for an explanation of the reasons why colored LEDs are more desirable than the pure white LEDs in Nav lights)

The standard height version of the bulb is pictured on the page (see the 27 LED version in the center of the page:
http://www.mastlight.com/BA15D.html

I found that these bulbs (which have a total of 27 LEDs integrated into the bulb) provide not only MORE light than the standard bulb, but they do so at all relevant angle ranges. (I was initially worried about the 45 degree visibility due to the LED arrangement, but it is not an issue when lit up...

The Stern Light:
I have a stern light that is not a Pearson original. I think it is relevant as it is almost identical to the Pearson original. (Mine came off a 1950's Chris-craft.) In any case, the space here is smaller compared to the Nav lights and the best fit for this was bulb Model 'BA15DD 12 LED White'.

You can see a picture of the bulb on the same page as the bulb above if you look to the bottom left of the page. You can see it installed in Picture #2.
The top LEDs are a bit on the high side inside this fixture, but overall, the LED bulb provides more light than the standard bulb. I had my doubts, but when I installed it and saw it on, I was very happy with the outcome.

Interior Lights:
I was VERY happy to find an LED product that works with the original little lamp shades used for our cabin lights.
The Bulb looks like a regular household bulb (maybe a tad smaller) but has 70 LEDs and it is 12V. It is slightly larger physically than the smallish 12V/15 watt bulbs I was using to date, but the do provide more light.
Additionally, they provide a similarly warm light as my incandescents. See Picture #3
I'll post a picture with the shade on. They provide a nice warm light for the cabin. In darkness, I found that even just ONE of these provided a nice amount of light for most purposes. TWO would fill my Commander's interior with plenty of light to read by...

[mbd]

Great info! Thanks for the tips and all the leg work!

[ebb]

Ditto on that.
AND the toggle on the 'coupon code'!

[Commander 147]

You saved me some legwork. It's the best of both worlds, old world look, and new world electricty savings and bulb longevity. :)

[carl291]

I would think if you never plan to sail at night the original Pearson light may be fine with an LED bulb.
When I look at the nav lights I'm thinking...... Man, I hope I never come across a boat at night in a channel or sea with lights this small and have to determine it's intentions. I would think an upgrade would be in order if your plan is to be on the water after the sun has gone down. They may be proportionate to the size of the boat but they sure would be hard to see. I'm thinking something with twice the lens size would be in order.
Comments?

[Rico]

I find myself sailing in the dark in the sometimes highly-busy San Francisco /San Pablo Bays pretty often. This body of water is relatively BIG and I sail from one end to the other often...

Keep in mind that navigation lights are not like headlights; you do not use them to 'see' your way through traffic. And they are not very bright even on the biggest ships. Navigation lights are meant to be seen from specific angles in a particular way in order to enable others to tell the relative 'attitude' (direction of travel) of a ship solely by the scheme of lights that are visible at any one time.

I think that the LEDs provide MORE than a bright enough light source so that they meet the typical requirements (visibility at 2 miles) even in hazy weather. I usually stay out of ship’s traffic when they are in the channel, but out at sea, or when ships are at an intersection/convergence zone in the bay, I’ve not had any issues ‘signaling’ larger vessels for a clue on their intended course, or to let them know about my intended course simply by showing them a shift in my navigation lights.
It is often that the other vessel signals me first... (in the case of the smaller commercial vessels such as tugs, workboats, sailboats. (it is always a toss-up with recreational powered boats...)

The 'signaling' is done either by pointing straight at the vessel where he sees BOTh red & Green (when approaching close to dead ahead) and letting him pick his course, or by shifting course clearly and letting him let me know via his course change (or quick horn blast, in the case of bigger ships) about his preference. I find that this works very well and is much quicker and easier than a hail on the radio.

Because of the ease of this communication I am confident that my navigation lights are quite effective despite being so small and not too bright (They are much brighter with the LEDs now).

I completed my LED installation a couple of weeks ago. This was only one day before departing to the south bay on a Friday afternoon for a regatta. This 30 mile+ windy, dark & foggy trip in heavy traffic, provided clear affirmation that my lights are nicely visible even in adverse conditions.

(More details and pictures on the trip and regatta on the 'Mephisto Cat' thread shortly)

Picture: Bright LED at mid-day. Note that the image does not EMIT light so the LEDs appear less bright. In person, they are so bright that the light seems almost like a single point of light.

This picture is taken at a 45 deg angle off the bow.

[Commander 147]

When I removed the stern light on Destiny I broke the light base trying to remove the wires which had probably never been removed since she was new. In addition the glass portion was alread broke before I got her. I've been trying to find a replacement and finally found someone that actually has them. Thought some of you might like to know about these folks.

[commanderpete]

Do they sell just the glass globe for the sternlight? I can't find a plastic replacement. The Seadog one doesn't fit.

I might just replace the stern light anyway. I really don't like the "wings" on the light. A line rubbing againt the fixture ripped mine right off the deck, twice. The wires kept it from going overboard.

[Commander 147]

I don't see anything that says if they sell parts or only complete units. Probably best to call him and ask. The phone number is 781-925-3312 or send him an e-mail at sales@bronzeblocks.com. Let us know what he says because the glass is chipped on my side lights and it would be grat to replace just that.

[Rico]

Commanderpete - have you contacted - or should I?
I am also suffering from a cracked stern light glass globe syndrome... I could smack myself! -Ugh!

I was lucky to have all 3 globes intact... but no longer!

I installed a new gasket when installing the LED and I guess I tightened it too much for the beautiful globe's liking - not enough to destroy the globe straigh away, but enough for it to develop a crack.

I thought that I may be able to keep moisture out with a bit of prnetrating sealer, but nope - the water went in. I took the light apart and the 40 year-old globe is now in 3 pieces. :mad:

I am waiting to see if the globe can be somehow repaired. (A glass artist friend is attempting some magic...)

I've searched for a replacement with no luck so far... Perhaps these might fit?!

[commanderpete]

Rico please give him a shout.

I'm still conflicted about the stern light. I bought a cheapo incandescent replacement, but never installed it. My light somehow continued to work without a globe all year.

I don't know if I'm going to keep the original and get a replacement globe and LED bulb.

I looked very hard to find an LED replacement fixture. They don't seem to make a deck mount sternlight.

There is one guy "boaterbits" on ebaymotors selling a fixture. But I seriously doubt the bulb is bright enough

[Rico]

I've seen those fixtures... Inexpensive, but I wonder how long before the plating falls off... And I agree that the amount of light might be lacking on these.

I am amazed at the total lack of proper deck mounted stern lights. There are a few deck mount all-round lights, but no proper stern lights...

Anyway, I just got off the phone with Jim ( of J.M. Reineck & Son) and I've ordered a replacement glass dome. $25 + Shipping. I have my fingers crossed that it will fit properly...



UPDATE:
I have received the Glass dome and I am happy to say that it looks like it will be a perfect fit. I will post an update after the actual installation.

[Commander 147]

These are not plated but 304 stainless.

http://www.sea-dog.com/PDF/400035-1.pdf

All of the Sea Dog line of lighting is at this link.

http://www.sea-dog.com/cgi-bin/webdata_pro.pl?_cgifunction=search&_layout=pdfs&pdfs.itemgroup=Lights%20%26%20Switches (http://www.sea-dog.com/cgi-bin/webdata_pro.pl?_cgifunction=search&_layout=pdfs&pdfs.itemgroup=Lights%20%26%20Switches)

[ebb]

USCG regs dictate that sailboats under 65' have port and starboard side lights and a stern light.
The red and green sidelights are often shown in diagrams in the bow of the boat,
and we often see them mounted in a single fixture on the pulpit.
These lights and a stern light can be combined in a single lantern mounted on the mast head.
If we still want the lights on the bow, or separated on the cabin side and on the transom (or pushpit), Regs say that only one set can be on - NOT BOTH.

If we are coming into a marina at dusk and we have to switch running lights on, there are strong arguments for the deck level lights to be used because they can be seen better by others. And when we are moving they can be understood better in the dark by others. A masthead light imco in crowded waters is too tall and gives little information about who we are.

If we go with the side lights on the cabin, we would not have side lights (on) in the bow. One set or the other - altho it is unlikely we would have both.

If we are under power, which we may well be in order to have more control over the boat, Regs say we have become a powerboat. As soon as we get the motor going (even with sails up) we are under power.
If we are under power we have to show an all round WHITE light. The only place on a sailboat for an allround light is on the masthead. Under power we also will have the side lights on - but not the stern light.

This allround white light on the masthead is also our anchor light. Used as an anchor light, our side lights would be off.

LED 2nm
Practical Sailor in the 2010 Feb issue tests four led bulb replacements which might be of interest to those of us rennovating the old fixtures.
They also test three led tricolor masthead lights.
LOPOLIGHT (200-005) at about $700 with a five year warranty.
OGM (LXTA-12v) at $340 - two year warranty.
SIGNALMATE (2-nm Tri) $359 - five years.
None of these tricolors include the allround steaming/anchor light.

Notably absent is the HELLA led tri-color. Why would this manufacturer be ignored by PS boggles the mind - as these four are the only led tricolors with USCG approval that can be found, that I've found.

Not only leaving out a major player, but ignoring the white anchor/steaming light is really whacky.
However, the article redeems itself somewhat by carefully checking RFI (with a hand held VHF). Electricity reaching the semi-conductors, led's, causes EMI. This can screw up the VHF signal in the coils of the antenna mounted close to the led tricolor. The tr-color manufacturer has to shield his product from other electronics at the masthead.
They tested the bulbs too for interference along with the tricolors by holding the handheld VHF radio at close distances to the lights.
Suffice to say only LOPOLIGHT had no RFI at 0 inches.

SIGNALMATE got RFI at 10". Assuming the test procedure is good, there just is no way I'd get this fixture and mount a VHF antenna next to it.
The website advertises the tricolor is fully shielded. Now we know - thanks to P.S.
P.S. also checked out by distance observation whether the red/green overlapped. They also graded how green the green was, Led greens often have a blue cast. And blue is a law-enforcement color. Lopo and the Lunasea bulb got the nod for the greenest green.


I'm attracted to the HELLA NaviLED Trio Masthead / Anchor Light - $340 - with a seven year warranty.
Data sheet, drawings, measurements, installation anst all available online.
"Electromagnetic Compatability (EMC) This LED lamp is an electronic device. The electrical circuits contain components that suppress possible interference, both emission as well as susceptability. to the limits prescribed in EN60945".
We didn't get the skinny from Practical Sailor on this.
HELLA also have some nice side and stern lights at $93 each. Defender has them $10 cheaper.
They don't tell what any fixture or lens is made from (polycarbonate?). If plastic then 7 years warranty is a stretch in southern climes.
A half dozen international certifications including USCG. So the green must be OK.
Just info and all of it my opinion.

Why on water would anybody with an active sailboat go with a plain tricolor?
How would you later add the allround white, if you wanted to? Led's are already too expensive!

[commanderpete]

A tricolor light will draw less power than 3 seperate fixtures. If you're going to install an anchor light at the top of the mast anyway, it might make sense to install a tricolor/anchor light combination.

But, you still need deck mounted lights. You can't use an anchor light while underway (although I see it done frequently). A sailboat under power needs to show a "steaming light" and not an all-around white light.

As far as I know, the rules state that the steaming light must be located above the sidelights. You can't use a masthead tricolor with a steaming light.

I suppose you would use the tricolor offshore, for better visibility to shipping and to conserve power. Near shore, the deck mounted lights are more likely to be seen against the clutter of lights on the shore, and should be used when the engine is engaged.

Seems there are many more choices in USCG approved LED nav lights in the last year or two, and some are fairly reasonable in price. This should only get better.

[ebb]

C'pete,
The Hella lantern has the tri-light in the prescribed separations: green - red - and white stern running light - with a seen from dead ahead separation of the red and green. A slight blank space.

It also has, SEPARATE from the tri-color combo, an ALL ROUND WHITE, on top of the combo. It is a separate light but in the same lantern. This light would NEVER be turned on while the tri-color was being used. And viceversa.

Being an all round light, and UNABSTRUCTED by mast or sails,
I have seen, have downloaded, diagrams like yours above here that show this all round white (USCG Regs) USED AS A STEAMING LIGHT ON A SAILBOAT (but with sails not rigged) when the motor is running.
Imco it would be 'more' legal' than a half mast steaming light that would have 1/3, at least. of the all round requirement obstructed by the mast it is mounted on.
And in a twilight ballet of getting the boat into its berth without running into something, no reg could possibly care if the rags are up or furled. Never know, tho.

Your series of graphics don't show this. And since the tri-color option is relatively new (what, 20 years by now?) the Coast Guard may not have their diagrams up to date. Besides the all round white steaming/anchor light may be stuck in some internal committee and is left in its fuzzy status for decades to come.


Perhaps by sailor use the added FOURTH light on the masthead of a sailboat will become written into regulation. It seems to be allowed by inference and some 'quasi-official' diagrams.

The all round white is already wired on some lanterns as a STROBE light. On the highseas, day or night, with an approaching freighter, switching the strobe on to get attention might save your and your boat's butt.
Regs might someday be rewritten to include emergency scenarios like this as emergencies. Using the strobe to get the attention on the bridge of a cargo freighter. Fat Chance! Radio contact with the freighter would call off any rescue effort or USCG notification that assitence was not needed. If that is the case.

The all round anchor light from a practical aspect has to be stacked on the masthead above or below the tricolor if we have one. Cruisers forums often mention that they can recognize their boat at night - when away from it - by their all round led.
This anchor light can also be found with a PV Sunset On/Sunrise Off feature.

[commanderpete]

I think the problem with using an anchor light/tricolor combination is that the regulations require at least one meter vertical seperation between the all-around white light above the red/green sidelights.

You might be able to use the anchor light as a steaming light with red/green deck lights, but only if you block out the stern deck light. Otherwise a boat approaching from behind will see two white lights "white over white"

[ebb]

C'pete, I finally see what you are getting at.

Any boat with an all round white light ON and not anchored is a boat under power.
Any boat under power with an all round white steaming light will not have its STERN light on.
But any boat will have its port and starboard lights on.
That means, in effect, that the masthead tri-color cannot be on.... Because the tri lights cannot be turned on and off separately.
Because when steaming with an all round white light, the white stern light part of the trilight cannot be on at the same time.

But I can see that in a sailboat not switched correctly that the tri-color and the all round white could be on at the same time. And that would cause confusion for the observer.

That's why a sailboat our size should have separate port and starboard and stern light at deck level.
Cruising or offshore I would definitely include the tri-light and the all round white
anchor light.

[It's a whole other dual fixture, but I know I've seen an all led steaming light and amp-eating deck light combo that is mounted at spreader height. Personally this is an excellent idea. And if attracting attention at sea these lights are perfect.
However, for picky regs I don't see how cutting a major portion of the steaming light by mounting it on the front of the mast makes it legal.
But do see that the mast will create a beneficial shadow for the poor guy in the cockpit.]

Also, I don't recall seeing a halfmast steaming light shown in any required nav light diagram.
Conceivably it is less legal than a tri-light with an all round anchor/steaming light.


Just to make things difficult: I have a diagram here that shows a white MASTHEAD steaming light that has a wedge blacked out on the aft side that corresponds exactly with the stern light wedge shaped light down on the DECK LEVEL. Also the red/green side lights are on.
Thus, you'd have your three normal deck level lights with a three sided white masthead steaming light.
This evidently conforms exactly to USCG rules for a sailboat under power.


BUT, a masthead 360 white light IS also Regulation for steaming under power.....
Have the diagram to prove it.
THAT IS IF YOU TURN OFF THE DECK LEVEL STERN LIGHT AND keep your sidelights on.
That seems simple enough.
As a bonus you get an allround anchor light when the side lights are off.

Whewww!

[commanderpete]

The power draw of the steaming light is not much of a concern, if your engine has a charger.

I don't think powerboats are really looking for lights up off the water. I look for masthead lights, and I see them frequently, although the light usually turns out to be a plane, helicopter, star, tower or something :)

You can even mistake a traffic light on land for another boat :)

By the way, I called Sea Dog about their new LED lights C-147 mentioned above. The guy wasn't familiar with the product but eventually told me they don't make an LED stern light. I haven't been able to find this line of products for sale anywhere yet.

[ebb]

C'pete,
Thanks for keeping the discussion going.

Did get on to
www.sea-dog.com
new items
where we find a selection of stamped 304 LEDs nav lights:

pair of horizontal mount port and starboard lights (400035)
a combo horizontal mount bow light (400050-1)

a rectangular vertical mount transom light (400065-1)
Here's the STERN LIGHT. But design is different.

a pair of vertical mount side lights (400080).

AND they also have a couple of interesting telescoping all round white fixtures
one is 24"/48". The other 34"/60" (400016-1). (Assume these are small powerboat allround whites - but if it is appropriate for us either one could be mounted in the pushpit line of stanchions, almost out of the way and ready to be extended for steaming.)

These are all 2nm Colreg and LED.
BUT, we don't find any data sheets, instructions, nothing, on these fixtures
So we don't know about any warranty
or EMI they might be emiting.
Would be nice to know if you use a handheld VHF.

They don't have any mast mounted stuff.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________
I've read where boats these days get robbed of their pricey LED lights.

In the McMasterCarr catalog you can find 18-8 tamper-resistant machine screws. 'Pin in head' Torx have a post in the middle so a regular torx driver cannot be inserted. And a spanner head which has two small separated holes that also requires a special bit. Page 3056 for the screws. Page 2821 for the screw drivers and Page 2810/11 for 1/4" hex shank bits for these special screws. The Torx would be my choice.
And the Torx pin-in-head hollow head bit is not likely to be found in any jerk's Leatherman.

[Commander 147]

CPete and Ebb

I also called Sea Dog to inquire about the stern light. I'm not sure why but most LED nav light manufacturers seem to be quick to come out with a red/green version but forget completely about the white. Which also seems to be the case here. It may be that white light from LEDs is harder to produce and it may somewhat inhibit the design process.

At any rate the guy I talked to said he would at least get the ball rolling with his engineering dept. to see if they could come up with a solution.

Ebb there is a tech services guy named Mark Barnhart that may be able to give you an answer on the EMI emission radius on the units. His e-mail address is

'techserv@sea-dog.com'

[ebb]

continued from post #71
In that post I conjectured that the P.S. tests were slightly skewerd because they left out a major nav light manufacturer HELLA.
They left out AQUASIGNAL also!!!

I was cruising around the net trying for the last time to find somebody else horning in on the lucrative led navlight market. On the whimsical Jametown site they have a video box where we can view an equally uninformative guy at a boat show changing out the old quart sized AguaSignal incandescent masthead fixture for a spiffy led replacement.... He kind of waggles the old one out and shoves the new one into the same old base! Cool! But he doesn't identify the bright new shorty. Naturally we can't find the fixture in the scramble of nav lights in Jamestown's online catalog pages. They don't sell it !
Anyway, it is the S-32 Tri-Anchor. Shipstore has it for $645,77. But you can shell out $450/460 at pyacht if you have to have one. Hope it comes WITH a base! I'm tired of looking for prices.
The matching series side lights are in the $80 range.

OK, don't you think this is strange
that Practical Sailor also did NOT include this tri-color in its Feb 2010 comparison ratings.
But they did use "for comparison purposes" the 25w AquaSignal incandescent.....yeah,
it would be hard to ignore a nav light manufacturer that's been in business since 1868!
So why in hell is AquaSignal's led tri-color light NOT included?
Well maybe it's because it has a FOURTH all round white light on it!
And P.S. wasn't interested in THAT function.
OR interested in informing their readers (who like me want ALL the information they can get right now!) that that function was even available! BAH, HUMBUG.

google> agua signal Corporation
www. aguasignal.info/ecat/htdocs/index.php?id=209
(I'm going to assume that address won't come up, so try to type into google the title just as I have it. (Home Page - Support - FAQ.)
It is Q&A page where AquaSignal nureyevs all over itself telling us what and what not to do with their old masthead lanterns, nav lights and bulbs.
For us poor sods updating AquaSignal incandescent to led.

Think I'm putting this recent Practical Sailor test into the same category as their infamous marina ooze anchor test of years ago. Their credibility for me is walking the plank.
We assume that P.S. (our only marine product, no advert, testing source) has our interests foremost. Nav lights are of utmost importance and every aspect of what is in the market should be revealed by P.S. Afterall they are doing the 'scientific' study and collecting the data for us. We assume that P.S. is testing ALL COLREG APPROVED nav lights when we study their test results in the magazine. We aren't served by P.S. ignoring without comment manufacturers with long standing reputations. Or pretending that certain available options/features like the all round aren't of importance or interest.:rolleyes:

[ebb]

2/26/10
Darrell Nicholson, the editor of P.S., called me this morning to scold me for an offensive sentence I have now deleted from a post above. In my defense I said it in jest. Most of the time it's obvious that their testing is without favor to one product. It's a tough sell. Especially single, new on the market non-comparison product reviews.
On his March 2010 'Rhumb Lines' editorial page he talks about blog posts, "Who's Lurking Behind Those Blog Posts?".
Last paragraph reads:
"Thankfully, Practical Sailor is not in the business of selling anything except what you have in your hand: reliable, forthright information based on independent, objective research and testing. We have no other interest than to provide our readers with the best available information on a wide rage of sailboats and sailing related products. If what you need is not in this month's issue, we've got it in our files, or we know where to find it. No need to wander the web, or wonder who to trust. Just email me at practicalsailor@belvoirpubs.com - or log on to www.practical-sailor.com, and you'll get a straight answer. But watch out for that diesel engine in the galley."
So P.S. is very sensitive to people like me who think they are legitimately looking deeper into whatever number of products tested in this tricolor case, and 'wandering the web' to do it. Sensistive to testing methods which should have some forthright reader review at times. Sensitive to just plain jerks and trouble-makers.
Darrell suggested I log on to his blog next time I had an issue, insidepracticalsailor.com.
He briefly explained the lengthy testing procedure and gathering of products to be tested: six months or more. The Hella omission and the AquaSignal omission were both because they were NOT on the market a half a year or more ago. Something maybe we couldn't know.
Told him I thought the editor should have mentioned these at the end of the test article before publication - and that another test/review was planned. ASAP.
I don't know what he told me about the allround whitelight omission. It bothers me that they without explanation did not review tricolors with allround lights. How can that just be ignored?

What does he mean about the "diesel engine in the galley"? Maybe he's refering to out of round, old fart curmudgeons like me. Bull in a china cabinet?

Still what we have in their expensive mag is what we see and read there.
But we should cut them some slack.
We have to take them at their word.

Understand that if we do get a comparison and a review of the absent led tricolors (AND ANCHOR LIGHTs) it will be at least 6 months from now.

[Tony G]

You, wicked, wicked man, you Ebb! ;)

I seems we are moving this thread in the direction of LED navigation lights again. So I'm gonna throw out the the fine, So. Pac. folks at www.bebi-electronics.com. You can't build a boat and then buy a masthead tri-color! That just wouldn't seem right...

[Tim D.]

Ebb we all know how thorough your research is, you don't have to take any c*&p from PS!

[ebb]

Tony,
Darrell mentioned something conversationally about the reliability of led lamp replacement in incandescent lanterns. I'm a fan of Bebi, everything we hear is great about them, providing work for local Fijians, making products that people seem to like - and even getting an award as Exporter of the Year from the Fiji gov't.

I don't see that they assemble side lights or tri-colors with anchor lanterns.
Reading their material makes me think you retro their led's into existing housings.
Would be great if an independent tester could run their upgrades through a virtual procedure. They could direct water for a certain number of minutes in various spray patterns at test lanterns with a garden hose. Dunk them for a hour in a bucket of saltwater. Stuff like that. Kidding, OK?

I certainly don't know what it takes to rebuild an old lantern and make it virtually waterproof.
And absolutely reliable.

Color fotos on the site show decidedly blue starboard lenses. I believe the future in led nav lights is in colored semi-conductors, in true color light rather than colored lenses. I've read that putting an led behind a plastic lens reduces the led lumens by up to 90%. Don't know, but I would keep that in mind when retro-iing.
Again I don't know where Bebi is on this. Maybe somebody knows?
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________
www.cruisersforum.com cursor DiscussionBoard - scroll to VendorsForum - cursor on pg 3 to Bebi LED lights
google> Bebi LED lights - Cruisers and Sailing Forums
Here you will find a more techy talk on Bebi lights from Michael Homsany, one of the directors at Bebi. focusing on the many types of led light coming on market. Looks like the series of posts is from 2008. Given that it is 2010 and LED's are galloping along this may be outdated somewhat - I wouldn't know I don't understand it anyway..

[ebb]

Tony, Tim......
Muchachos!
Manos!

We must continue the fight against complacency until our bandoliers are empty!

Pancho Villa's famous? last words:
"Don't let it end this way.
Tell them I said something."

He must have said that en espanol of course
and he wasn't a dada poet,
but it does seem, given the significance of the situation,
that saying something was better than saying nothing.

I feel the same, that's my stand.

[Commander 147]

I received the replacement stern light from J M Reineck today. It is an exact duplicate to the original with interchangeable parts with one exception. It is not chrome plated. Since I am having a bunch of parts chrome plated I think I will have the old winged part chrome plated again (it is a smoother casting than the new) so if you want the new winged tip top portion (raw bronze) and it will make your stern light complete again it is yours for the cost of the UPS.

[commanderpete]

Thanks Jerry, very kind of you.

I will give you my stern light, if you must have her. For she has been a good light, and still burns brightly, although wounded and neglected. I can not make such choices under this kind of pressure. I am not thinking clearly, as should be quite obvious. I have pondered this momentous decision of which stern light is right for me for only a short time now, perhaps only a year or two, which is hardly enough time. I am now undergoing a mental crisis, provoked by you, perhaps unwittingly. I don't know, it is not for me to question your motives. All I know is, there appears to be a man with a chroming cart driving down your street (if he has not come and gone already) and the chroming man is collecting pieces of hardware and promising to return these same pieces all shiny and new. And you are offering to buy my stern light a new party dress, which she will never get from me, that's for sure. I have fallen out of love with my stern light as I have confessed to you all, in these very pages. I have been casting my lecherous gaze around trying to find some cheap replacement. I have tried to kill this light on two occasions already and toss her in the drink, but she held on stubbornly dangling by a wire or two. And how do I reward such loyalty? I give her nothing. For I have nothing left to give, except perhaps a new lease on life with a better owner than me, who might appreciate her virtues and solid build. I will send you this light that has served me so well and warded off SeaRays and Bayliners and all my other enemies for so long. For, as you can see, I am not a well man. And you should now have two lights now and keep one upon the shelf in case of emergency or to dole out to some other eager boat owner in need. She is a good light, a lucky light, and might bring some joy into someone elses empty life. It is not for me to judge. And I must admit Jerry (if that is your real name) that it is not your fault that I have finally gone around the bend and off the deep end, It was another man this mornig who has made me crazy, and the weapon he chose was an Ice Cream Truck playing a happy jingle, in APRIL!! I saw him in my rear-view mirror following me around. That is just not right, you must agree. And, in reality. I have made myself crazy. I have not felt the sensation of floating (not even in a hot tub) for four looooong months. And I have not even visited my boat. But, I have it on good authority that she still stands upright, despite my neflect. I will go visit her and confess my sins and seek forgiveness. But I will promise her NOTHING. This year, I think, I will just kick her shapely ass to the curb and plop her in the water, where she belong, as do I. You see Jerry (may I call you Jerry?) I know in my heart that I am just a clumsy boat-butcher and don't deserve such a fine vehicle. This year I lack any enthusiasm it seems, my enthusiasm (if I ever had any) is not unlimited it appears. I can not even muster the strength to welcome our new members and compliment their fine work. They are just trying to make me feel even more guilty. So, I will give you my stern light, if you insist, and pass the torch, or baton, or flaming baton, to you. And I will send you a message, in private, so that we may talk, in secret, as men. And perhaps you can assure me that it will all be better soon, once I am floating again, my troubled mind will be healed. But, if you choose to ignore my message asking for your address I will understand, you just don't want me to know where you live. That is all.

[Rico]

Commanderpete - It seems you've got severe 'landlocked syndrome' symptoms...
You MUST get out on the water and go far a sail immediately!

[commanderpete]

Yes, yes, young Rico, the cure for my present ailments is quite clear, at least to me.

But navigation lights is a very important subject. I keep mine burning day and night as protection from my enemies, of which there are many, as I have told you.

Pretty soon I will feel better and can go back to my usual form of insanity, which includes attaching a photo or two with every post

[Commander 147]

I know exactly how you feel. While I live in Florida where fall, winter and spring are our prime sailing seasons I have not been out anywhere near as much as I usually require to avoid the withdrawal shakes. :)

We have had the coldest winter here since 1977 and to top it off my boat is stuck on the hard. If not for true friends Dave, Tim and Tom who take me sailing I would be in an institution right now. As a matter of fact I just came back from Charlotte Harbor where Tim had me crew on is new to him as of today Tartan 3000. I feel so much better after having gone sailing today, and so will you but as Rico says you need to do it now, don't waste any time, run don't walk to the nearest sailboat and go sailing. :D:D

BTW I will reply to your e-mail as soon as I post this.

[commanderpete]

Very good. Message received and understood.

It helps to talk about these things. I think just a sniff of varnish would be good too.

Maybe I'm not being chased and followed around by enemies after all.


http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=6342&stc=1&d=1260023146

[John]

CommanderPete;

I am sufferng from the same disease as I look out at Commander No 287 in the front corner of the yard. It was a lucky thing that she was there instead of closer to the house...
See http://www.flickr.com/photos/jhg2/sets/72157623535053242/

I have however gotten as far as making up a new mooring rode...So there is progress.

John

[Commander 147]

I bought a new stern light for my commander of which I only plan to use the base and the new glass dome from. I will be using my old top piece and plan to have it rechromed.

So I have the new top piece I purchased, my old base and cracked glass dome, and Commander Pete sent me his old base and top piece to offer to anyone that needs it also. The glass dome can be purchased new for either of these old lights. I should also mention that both of the old bases need a new socket installed in them.

[Commander 147]

All I have left is one of the base sections. Free to anyone that wants it...

[Rico]

I just installed an LED light on my Steaming light fixture. This was the last incandescent bulb I had... I am now completely LED...

It took me a while to get to this bulb as I waited until I had trustworthy help getting up the mast.

I used a 31 mm Festoon with 1 High Power White LED 12VDC Bulb with Pointed Ends as a direct replacement. Plug & play...

After the installation I was surprised at how much light the single LED emits. Of course the single LED is quite big... I have a fairly small steaming light fixture and it uses the small (31mm) festoon bulb - can't fit many LEDs into that space!

I got this Bulb also from Mastlight.com above and it performs quite well. Once again I was initially concerned about the off-center viewing angles asince the LED is the forward facing type. But in practice it works quite nicely with a wide angle of brightness.

$5.00 LIST price

[JurisG]

This is probably slightly off-topic, but since this discussion is sticky and it's an obscure part search I'm going to fire away. I am missing this part for my Ariel (see pic). It has a female threaded hole (with an insane thread that is not recognizably metric or standard) and an eye hook on the end of it. Does anyone know what this part is called and/or where I can get a replacement? Even if the thread doesn't match, I will just put a die on the male end of the railing cable and re-cut it. Thanks!

6718

[Bill]

This is probably slightly off-topic, but since this discussion is sticky and it's an obscure part search I'm going to fire away. I am missing this part for my Ariel (see pic). It has a female threaded hole (with an insane thread that is not recognizably metric or standard) and an eye hook on the end of it. Does anyone know what this part is called and/or where I can get a replacement? Even if the thread doesn't match, I will just put a die on the male end of the railing cable and re-cut it. Thanks! 6718

Stop by your local rig shop and take a look at the life line hardware . . . or check a marine store. That appears to be a "gate eye" and there should be a pelican hook on a section of life line that attaches to it.

[mbd]

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=6557&stc=1&d=1271243857

The bronze stern light cover pictured above that Jerry so graciously offered is available again. It doesn't quite fit MY original glass dome, but you may be able to rework it or find another glass dome to fit. I guess I just need to work on my original stern light to get down to the purty bronze... Thanks Jerry!

[Commander 147]

Mike

How interesting. With my stern light which I believe to be original it was totally interchangeable as was the new glass dome I bought from the same company. These boats really were one off boats with each one unique in some way to all of the others. No computerized tight tolerances like you see in todays production boats.

[mbd]

Maybe in the few years between our boats they, changed a manufacturer or something. If you look closely at the pic, it looks like C-Pete's old housing has a wider top dome than the new one, which is what mine would look like. I'm sure with a little working, it could be made to fit. But if I'm going to do that, I should just rework mine down to bronze and let someone else enjoy a beautiful NEW bronze stern light fixture then can just install and enjoy.

I edited my post above to say, "It doesn't quite fit MY original glass dome"...

[Lucky Dawg]

Must be an anomoly in the search function. I've searched for LED and it comes up with no results. I'm certain that there is a string that Rico contributed to on LED specifics, including sources for replacement bulbs.

So, here is a string dedicated to LED lighting and upgrades from original navigational lighting.

Hoping to do some upgrades to LED. Would be interested in specific recommendations for our yachts.

[Rico]

Hey Kyle,
The search function does not like search terms with less than 4 letters...

-Look twds the end of the thread for final solutions. It is easy (Plug & play) and there is no reason NOT to convert over to LEDs.

[ebb]

That's what I ended up with. It's actually listed as a Masthead / Foredeck Light. Why?

So here it is apart on the kitchen table.
It's 5.5" long and divided in half top and bottom in a half round tube-like form that stands out 2 1/2" - with a full fresnel style plastic lens on top.
Meauring the bulbs for LED replacement. The 1 3/4" festoon bulb, which looks like a pointy-end fuse has this LED replacement source:
marinebeam.com - cone-end festoon with 30 LEDs, FS-42-30C. 160WW lumens, 270mA/3.2W. $29.95.
This is the upper steaming light, and is found on most boats about halfway up a mast, Thinking of mounting it just above the spreaders. (No spreader lights planned.)

The decklight halogen bulb is a miniature bayonet, single point, listed as a BA9s. Bayonet style / 9mm diameter base / single point. 12V/10W. Total length a little over an inch.
To illuminate the foredeck from 15ft above the deck, this wee bulb would have to smoke. But assuming there's enough to see by, the modest illumination hopefully won't destroy any nightvision.
Wonder what appropriate candelas are for a LED replacement?

This halogen part of the combo fixture is exposed. The uncovered bulb sits in the center of a 2"diameter metal bowl reflector in the bottom of the fixture. The bulb is protected within the 'shroud' of the housing. Water won't directly invade the electrics inside, but still this AquaSignal design is very open to moisture and corrosion.
To access the inside for wiring and festoon bulb replacement two long #6MS hold the housing and steaming light lens to the base. However the halogen bulb must first be taken out of the reflector. It gets pushed into the spring-loaded socket and turned to release it, at which point the bulb drops out. After the bulb is removed the housing can be tilted forward and taken off the base. The little 20W bulb, when in its socket, is easy to remove as most of the bulb is exposed for a two-finger grab. This means that the electrics are also right there at the hole.*

Obviously the open bottom design helps disapate the heat of the halogen, and would do the same for a replacement LED cluster bulb.
marinebeam.com BA9S 15-LED Replacement Miniature Bayonet. BA-9S-15. 90WW lumens. 1.3W/100mA $15.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
* Paid list price for this AquaSignal Steaming/Foredeck Light. The black plastic is fiberglass impregated nylon. I think the thin metal parts are all s.s.
The molding is clean and sharp, the cosmetic design is trim and compact and is the reason I went for it. As an exposed electrical fixture in a sodium chloride environment, out of five stars I'd award it one, or half of one star. That makes it an expensive piece of safety gear.
When you need it, the lights MUST function. There is a skinny EPDM gasket around the festoon compartment inside. When the housing is cinched up the acrylic lens makes a seal. The lens is factory installed dry in the housing and seems non-removable. The light is open at the back where the base attaches to the mast. Be interesting to see what a shot from a waterhose would do. The housing is not gasketed to the base.
I'm thinking that butyl tape or black 3M Weatherban should be used in an attempt to weather strip all parts of the fixture when installed. Liberal use of TefGel and some kind of dielectric grease for the electric points of contact. Any recommendations?

[pbryant]

One thing to be very careful of is radio frequency interference (RFI) produced by many LED lights. The LEDs themselves aren't the culprit, it's the switching power supplies incorporated into the lights to allow operation over a wide voltage range: often 9 to 32 volts. It turns the LEDs into "all band transmitters."

There really aren't any standards for RFI emissions from LED lights here in the US. We've got FCC Rules Part 15, but the FCC is too afraid of the screams of "jackbooted government thugs" from Tea Party Deregulation Nutcases to enforce it on the multitude of companies selling LEDs. The Europeans are ahead of us in certifying LEDs, so if the light has a "CE" emblem on it, it's likely to be much quieter than anything sold here in the US of A. All the stuff is made in China, but the Europeans make sure they add a 3 cent capacitor to kill the noise.

After installing an LED on your vessel, try this test. 1) Tune in a weak station on your VHF, the weather frequencies are a good choice. Pick a weather station that is weak. Now turn on your LED. If the station suddenly disappears or is covered by static, you've got a noisy LED that may prevent you from hearing stations on your VHF when you really need to. If the LED is really noisy, it might also wipe out your cell phone in a weak coverage area (like out on the water). Then you've got a choice: lights, radio, but not both.

I overheard a fisherman at Pillar Point testing the VHF radio one night recently: "Radio check, radio check." People were responding, but he kept on calling. I walked over to his slip and said: "Hey, nice LEDs on your boat. Real bright. Good for picking up crab pots in the dark. Got rid of those old halogens, did you? You wanna turn those LEDs off a minute and do another radio check?" That worked. He couldn't hear the Harbormaster responding from 300 feet away with the boat's massive LED array powered up. Thereafter ensued a 10 minute conversation about RFI and LEDs.

I've been a licensed commercial radio operator for 40 years and I can't express in words how aggravating it is to see the radio spectrum being wiped out by cheap LEDs. Pretty soon, only the Europeans will be able to use their radios.

[ebb]

Captain pbryant.
I've advanced ignorance of anything electric beyond toggle switches.

Want nothing but led lighting on my Ariel. Don't believe there is an alternative.
Led seems to be where we are headed. Soon other forms of making light by wire will be obsolete.

Maybe the VHF has to change?

Does it look like this is happening?
What other choices for communication is happening?

Is it wiring that causes the problem or only the diodes or both?
Is there a way of shielding or containing the led switching chips from broadcasting RFI?
Lead shielding. Potting. Isolating ideas.
Source for CE certirfied products and lighting? Are these really protected with a 3cent capacitor?

My house is 100% led - so there are dozens of transformers everywhere - phones and media reception seems unaffected. But often have to step outside to answer cellphone. House has a metal roof.

Is there an RFI clean way to install marine wire and toys?
Should I even bother to run coax in the mast to a VHFantenna?:confused::confused::confused:
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................
Just went to a marine led site. (MarinePro) They sell Hella, Imtra, AquaSignal, Lalizas bulbs (all European, I presume)
No mention of CE (RFI) protection.
Why wouldn't CE certified be a selling point in this country?
These are of course 'replacement' blubs, se maybe they're Made In China? Another bloody caveat emptor, damit!

[pbryant]

Captain pbryant.
I've advanced ignorance of anything electric beyond toggle switches.

Want nothing but led lighting on my Ariel. Don't believe there is an alternative.
Led seems to be where we are headed. Soon other forms of making light by wire will be obsolete.

Maybe the VHF has to change? Not until the Federation of Planets approves subspace communications or we learn how to modulate gravity waves. By then, our boats will be powered with dilithium crystals.

Does it look like this is happening? Sure. In geological terms, another thousand years is only an eye blink away.
What other choices for communication is happening? None that I can foresee. You can always try Morse Code by signal light...

Is it the wiring that causes the problem or only the diodes? Neither, though the wiring can act as an antenna, making the problem worse. The problem is caused by the switching regulators installed in the LED lamp housing - inside the lamp base. Unless federal regulators force them to filter the supplies (not done here in the US), the switching supplies act like spark-gap transmitters -- which were outlawed nearly 100 years ago because they too wiped out the entire RF spectrum. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter).
Is there a way of shielding or containing the led switching chips from broadcasting RFI? Filtering: yes. Shielding is less effective. You can wrap the lamp in aluminum foil - but until someone invents transparent aluminum, it defeats the purpose.
Lead shielding. Potting. Isolating ideas. See above.
Source for CE certified products and lighting? Are these really protected with a 3cent capacitor? Source: Anything marketed in the EU with a "CE" emblem (http://www.google.com/imgres?biw=1920&bih=1031&tbm=isch&tbnid=a_FTBBURCwgn7M:&imgrefurl=http://www.certification-experts.com/ce-marking-logo-free-download-ce-mark-logo/&docid=7sEHM1BECz6ziM&imgurl=http://www.certification-experts.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/CE-logo1.jpg&w=1192&h=840&ei=IUiWUtrOEcrCyAHes4GwBw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:0,s:0,i:102&iact=rc&page=1&tbnh=183&tbnw=247&start=0&ndsp=31&tx=88&ty=95). ]The European Community has set RFI standards for LEDs. The US effectively has not. There are several cheap ways to greatly diminish the RFI - but only in manufacture - not retrofits, including adding a filter capacitor to the switching supply. But the manufactures don't bother where it isn't required -- the US. I suppose they think greed is good.

My house is 100% led - so there are dozens of transformers everywhere - phones and media reception seems unaffected. But often have to step outside to answer cellphone. House has a metal roof. Household LEDs don't usually have the same noisy DC-to-DC switching supplies built into the lamps. But you might try an experiment: Turn all the LEDs off and see if your cell phone suddenly works.

Is there an RFI clean way to install marine wire and toys?:confused: Until the US requires certification, all you can do is in sutu testing: install the light, test it, if it wipes out your radios replace it with something else. Retest. Or look for the European "CE" certification. I've had to return half the LEDs I've tested. Some of the cheapest ones are the quietest. If you place an LED near your VHF antenna (like a tricolor at the masthead), it needs to be VERY quiet. There is no workaround because of its proximity to the antenna.

See embedded replies above...

[ebb]

If I hadn't collapsed with laughing, the pain would have been too much!.:D

[captcraig]

Hey Ebb, I purchased some LED bulbs for my original perko nav lights and hope to change the cabin light bulbs to LED bulbs soon. I took my glass red, green, and clear lens off and soaked them in vinegar to get some of the minerals off and that worked pretty well. Looking forward to low energy consumption. Replaced my old #68 bulbs with the 9000425 from Dr. LED. Interesting that the led bulbs have to be colored even when they are behind a colored lens.

[Lucky Dawg]

LEDs are nice!

(Posting from my phone. This image might be enormous!)

9158

[captcraig]

Have always regretted not stopping by on the way home home with A157. I was up in Traverse 2 days longer than expected and had no time to waste getting home. The water was so clear I couldn't believe it. One of the guys said you could see down 50' just a 1/4 mile out from the marina.

[captcraig]

Kyle, are those the original fixtures?

[Lucky Dawg]

Wish you'd have stopped in! I'd love to sail with another Alberg-ian! Open invitation to anyone onboard. (vw4kw at yahoo dot com)

Yes, all original. The LEDs plugged and played no problemo. I will keep looking for my supplier. I can't remember who it was - sorry. If I remember correctly, I used the guidance of Rico's (s/v Mephisto Cat) posts and his source. I'll search and see if I can find it.

Still looking - actually - for 2 appliance size A15 LED bulbs for the two interior fixtures. Harder to find than you might think. Maybe someone here knows a source?

Went to the Grand Rapids Boat Show this weekend - stink boat's aplenty - and was intrigued with rope LED lighting used in many modern day boats. I didn't think of it so much for looks, but for utility in hard to reach areas of our boats that a little bright-lighting might be advantageous. There is everyday lighting, and there is full-on house lights that illuminate every nook and cranny of the ship.

9159

[captcraig]

I ordered some bulbs from Dr. LED, kind of pricey but a little cheaper than West Marine. I think the green goes on the starboard side. Dr. LED has the household size sockets in the 12v. www.doctorled.com (http://www.doctorled.com) When I was up in Traverse the travel lift broke and I had to sit tight until they had it fixed. There were a some other issues as well but not worth going into. Hope to go up and visit the old owner of A157 this year. He was the nicest guy I've ever met. Took incredibly good care of the boat.

[Lucky Dawg]

See LED discussion for part numbers at http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?913-Navigation-Lights - it is a couple pages, but good reading.

(As has been discussed here previously by Bill, et al. ... and with all due respect to the website's functionality.... searching google with "site: pearsonariel.org LED" or whatever you are looking for after pearsonariel.org (e.g. site: pearsonariel.org peanut butter) is a much more fruitful search option than using the search option here.)

[Lucky Dawg]

AGGG! I got my lights reversed!! Thanks for the heads up.... I could have left them that way for years! Oh dear.... SMH...

9163

[captcraig]

Thought I should mention the light and glad to see that you have a good sense of humor. I'll bet you guys are ready for spring. Are the big lakes still icy? I've noticed Google usually out performs most sites when it comes to searches. I'll take a look at the led stuff

[Lucky Dawg]

Still frozen. See http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=26317#post26317

[captcraig]

I was just getting ready to say never mind after seeing your post and pics, wow, looks like you'll be able to go ice fishing this summer. I don't watch tv or follow the news much, too much work.

[captcraig]

Recieved my new nav LEDs from Dr LED and they are very cool. One problem though the green and red would not go deep enough into the socket on the old fixtures. Waiting for a reply as to the best bulb for the old pearson sidelights. The stern light fit just fine as it is not as deep, bright as a lighthouse. Also put one of the 12v medium base (household style) bulbs in for the cabin lite and it is also very cool. Will be buying another. On the packages it says Zero RF.
I thought about trying to push the sockets up into the fixture but was afraid I would screw em up. Anybody ever try that?

[pbryant]

Careful... The Dr. LEDs I tested didn't have the required width of vertical light emission. If you heel past 20 degrees, the sidelights will disappear. The COLREGs require +/- 25 degrees. Here's my letter to Dr. LED and their reply:

-------------------------


Date: Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 11:05 AM
Subject: Re: USCG Colreg Cert
To: customerservice@doctorled.com


Thank you. I will return the product to the vendor.

I am puzzled by your response since the brightness output requirements are the same for both powered and sailing vessels.

I recommend measuring the vertical sectors. My measurement shows the light being cut off entirely at 18.8 degrees referenced to the axis from the center of the LED to the top internal reflector.

Since this could adversely impact safety at sea, how do you plan to communicate this issue to vendors and the boating community? There currently is no labeling that I can find that indicates the LEDs are not certified for sailing vessels.


On Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Dr. LED Customer Service <customerservice@doctorled.com> wrote:
Hi Patrick,

You are right that our red and green bulbs are certified for power vessels only for the time being. The reason being, red and green LEDs were not as bright as white LED in terms if lumen output. We can certainly improve the bulbs in our next production runs. For your information, the while bulb is certified for use with sail and power vessels as the lumen output is higher.

Yours truly,

James
for Dr. LED

-------------------------

Also, "Zero RF" is an unattainable pipe dream for LEDs that operate at a wide voltage margin (12 to 24 volts) because they incorporate switching regulators that will produce some RF interference (RFI). They all produce some RF interference, although there is a great variation in how much. The only way to achieve "Zero RF" is to encase them in shielding.

Here are spectragraphs of the RFI noise from the red Dr. LED I tested.

The first image is the RFI noise level from the Dr. LED.
9333

The second image is the baseline (background) noise levels (LED powered off) taken inside the RF shielded (several feet of steel and concrete) Screen Room I used for testing. The Dr. LED's RFI was more than 30 decibels (a ratio of 1,000 times) higher than the background noise.
9332

Placed near your VHF antenna, this noise level from the LED lamp would practically obliterate your VHF reception.

I do wish there were RFI standards applied here in the US to these lamps. Most sailors don't have a screen room and a $20,000 spectrum analyzer handy. About the only test you can perform is to tune in the weakest weather station on your VHF radio and then turn on your LED lights. If the weather station reception is lost, you have a problem, though without a test instrument, it will be difficult to quantify how serious that problem is.

The best LEDs I've found have the European Community "CE" stamp on them. Unlike the United States, the Europeans have RFI test standards.

You can read more about Dr. LED issues here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f124/problems-with-dr-led-lights-36083.html

[Lucky Dawg]

My source was www.mastlight.com

1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Red, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27R.html
1 @ BA15D Stacking D27LED Green, Tall version http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD27G.html
1 @ BA15DD 12 LED White http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html
1 @ unknown masthead bulb, white http://www.mastlight.com/Products/BA15DD12W.html

May well have the same tilt issues - of which I was completely unaware!

[Commander 147]

Kyle


What am I doing wrong? If I click on any of your links (which were the ones Rico told us about when he went to LED nav lights) it takes me to a home page for mastlight.com and when I click on navigation lights I get links to lots of other sites where I cannot find the bulbs you are talking about.


I'm trying to find LED Nav light bulbs that will work with the original fixtures to keep Destiny as original as possible but seem to be having a really difficult time getting to the bulbs you are talking about.


Help please!

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Jerry,
Not sure if they are out of business...? Maybe their website went kaput. I sent Hans a message (sales@mastlight.com) - guy who helped me before. Will let you know if / when I hear something. Sorry, I should have checked the links before posting.
KW

[pbryant]

My source was www.mastlight.com

(...)

May well have the same tilt issues - of which I was completely unaware!

The +/- 25 degree requirement is in Annex I of the COLREGs (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf):


10. Vertical sectors
(a) The vertical sectors of electric lights as fitted, with the exception of lights
on sailing vessels underway shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 60 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 7.5 degrees above to 7.5 degrees below the horizontal.
(b) In the case of sailing vessels underway the vertical sectors of electric
lights as fitted shall ensure that:
(i) at least the required minimum intensity is maintained at all angles
from 5 degrees above to 5 degrees below the horizontal;
(ii) at least 50 percent of the required minimum intensity is maintained
from 25 degrees above to 25 degrees below the horizontal.

Why? Sailboats heel. The side lights shouldn't vanish as seen by another vessel at reasonable degrees of heel.

(Note that when the light intensity is reduced to 50%, it's visibility is reduced to 25%, i.e., if the light is visible at 2 miles when viewed straight on, it is visible for only 1/2 mile at 50% intensity.)

It requires brighter lights (or more LED lamps) to project the same amount of light over the less concentrated +/- 25 degree vertical arc. So the lights meeting the standards for sailboats are more expensive to manufacture. If the manufacturer can pawn off motorboat lights onto the sailing community, they make a bigger profit. But if you ever have a collision, you can expect the USCG to go over your lights with a fine toothed comb, and YOU are responsible for installing the correct lights. The manufacturer will shrug off responsibility for the accident saying: "we didn't claim those lights could be used on a sailboat".

If the lights aren't specifically labelled for sailboats and made by a reputable firm that specializes in navigation lights (unlike Dr. LED), expect them to be inappropriate for sailboats.

[pbryant]

Since I sail mostly in the Pacific away from city lights that would otherwise degrade my night vision, I personally disliked the location of the side lights on the cabin sides: the lights (especially the green starboard light) reflected off the side deck and ruined my night vision. So I placed my red and green lights at the bow. Below are photos. The black masking on the toe rail top prevents the lights from reflecting off the white paint and then off the bow railing back at my eyes.

I used the Hella marine NaviLED Port & Starboard Navigation Light Twin Pack. Order info here: http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|65136|2312550|2312557&id=1342750, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_Deckmount2NM_Instruction_Sheet.pdf. The lights are certified by the manufacturer as suitable for sailing vessels, and I personally set them up on a jig and verified the vertical sectors were greater than +/- 25 degrees.

On the datasheet, note the "CE" seal and the statement: "The electrical circuits contain components that suppress possible interference, both emission as well as susceptibility, to the limits prescribed in EN 60945 (http://www.scribd.com/doc/69585034/EN-60945-2002)." That's a European standard. There sadly are no U.S. standards. That's "deregulation" at work here! If the time ever comes that you can't hear the Coast Guard calling you over the radio frequency trash your LEDs are causing, you can thank the Grand Obstructionist Party in Congress for the lack of regulations (we all know who that is). That leaves you with only one reliable choice for LEDs: Buy European.

[ebb]

Patrick,
Thanks for taking the time to set us straight on this very important safety issue.
Really appreciate your research and expertise.
And getting in the face of those who short cut sailors for profit.

Internet forums - give-&-take discussion - seem to be the final stronghold against incompetence and fraud.
What other social outlet is there?
This Pearson Ariel/Commander sailboat site gets, what seems to me, a huge number of visitors.
Whenever I come aboard, any time of day or night or day of week, there are always
20 or 30 'users' listed...usually 'guests'...and a fair amount of spider activity. There is constant visitor turnover activity 24/7.
Obviously, a lot of folks are looking in.

Just trying to say that if response to your navlight revelations seems sparse, it isn't!

.................................................. .................................................. ..................................

Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?
Thanks!

[Commander227]

Thanks for the insight on the LEDs, never would have considered those issues. Wow, you got some forward firepower, what ya got to cover the stern? And say... What kind of game are we playing with the blue line in your deck? Asym tack?
How about the red line that goes thru the block on your stem fitting, jib douser?

[pbryant]

Thanks for the insight on the LEDs, never would have considered those issues. Wow, you got some forward firepower, what ya got to cover the stern? And say... What kind of game are we playing with the blue line in your deck? Asym tack?
How about the red line that goes thru the block on your stem fitting, jib douser?

I'm using a Hella Marine 2 NM NaviLED PRO Stern Navigation Lamp (http://www.hellamarine.com/en/products/navigation-lamps/stern/2-nm-naviled-pro-stern-led-navigation-lamp.html) on the stern. (Order info here: http://search.defender.com/?expression=700834&x=0&y=0, datasheet here: http://www.defender.com/pdf/NaviLED_PRO_%20Instruction_Sheet.pdf).

The blue line is my pendant that I use to haul the anchor rode to the bow while I toss it over from the cockpit. Full details are here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2611-Stowing-anchor-rode-and-chain-the-the-forecastle&p=26711#post26711. And yes, as you surmised, the red line is my jib douser.

Note that Rule 22 of the COLREGs (http://www.navcen.uscg.gov/pdf/navRules/navrules.pdf) requires that the minimum visibility of the stern light for a vessel less than 12 meters (I count an Ariel as being 8 meters) is 2 NM. That minimum is met with the light above. The sidelights (red and green) only need to be 1 NM to satisfy the COLREGs, but I opted for 2 NM lights. I reason that, considering how little power the LEDs draw, there's not much gained by using less-intense lights.

[pbryant]

> Looked around for those honkin LED headlamps on your pulpit....are they commercially available ?

The larger 6 LED assembly is Larson Electronics model LEDP3W-6-F-WHT (http://www.larsonelectronics.com/p-48476-low-profile-high-intensity-led-light-bar-6-3-watt-leds-1368-lumen-9-32vdc.aspx) and the two smaller 3 LED assemblies are model LEDP3W-3-F-WHT (http://www.larsonelectronics.com/p-48272-low-profile-high-intensity-led-light-bar-3-3-watt-leds-9-32-volts-dc-684-lumen-8-amp-draw.aspx). The clamps are model BC-3-WHT-1. Put lots of anti-seize grease on the stainless steel screws before you install them in the aluminum clamps. I didn't, and regretted the omission.

Be sure you're sitting down before you see the price on those lamps. They are pricey, but they've held up to years of being struck by boarding waves and still continue to function. They are very, very bright. Since I've had them, I haven't had to untangle a crab pot line from my outboard prop, and they sure are nice when coming into port and docking.

[Commander 147]

Hey guys I have found some LED's that look like they will work in our original fixtures. I worked with John Gamble from Hotwire Enterprises (link below) and this is what he came up with for me.


White stern TW-BA-15-SM white
red port light TW-BA-15-SM red
and green starboard TW-BA-15-SM green


They come from MarineBeam and this is the link.

http://store.marinebeam.com/bayonet-90-led-replacenment.html


Hotwire's website is here....

http://svhotwire.com/

[ebb]

That's a great site. Been there before, but lost it in the internet forest.

They seem to have really good boat specific products, which they say they have tested.

Their navlights are CE. And sound like they are completely waterproof.
That would make them unique!

And they are sailors.

Their navlights look tidy, streamlined.... and they say will do 2NM, or more.
Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.
Have heard that drastically reduces lumens.

.................................................. .................................................. .................
Was unable to navigate Larson Electronics because of language difficulties.
Like the idea of using pull/pushpit tubing for night lights...
MARINEBEAM has those machined aluminum clamps for a range of tube beginning at 3/4".
Evidently they make them for you on order...
But don't seem to have the 'housing' like for pbryant's honkin crabpot lights.:rolleyes:

They also sell a portable LED SPOTTING FLASHLIGHT (3 D-cell) that will find
a buoy at 650 meters on a full moon night! (that's what hype says)
{Using a spotting light powered by only 3 D-cells IS a big deal. However, the real deal
would be to have the light supported with a charger*. It would be even better, imco, for
the light to be stored IN the charger - so that the light is always fully charged.
The catalog hype dance also avoids any mention of 'water resistance'. Buyer has to assume
that the flashlight is marinized beyond its rubber on/off button.
Body is tubular. Any time you put it down, it'll be somewhere else, when you look for it.}
But a focused laser-like beam (minimal light 'spill-over') is a big deal in the cockpit at night.

Haven't gotten any yet.

*An onboard portable charger seems like a good idea for small rechargeable batteries.
All-Battery.com sells Tenergy's TN190 AdvancedUniversalCharger which charges NiMH.

Looked for a solar charger. There are no marine versions, so I suppose you go for a
lubber charger that has all the safety features (timer, reverse polarity and short circuit
protection and bad/non-rechargeable cell protection) and is sold through a US company....?
NiMH batteries do not have a great reputation and other chemistries aren't in the
market yet for AAA/AA/C/D/9V batteries. Hopefully they'll use the LiFePO4 chemistry.

Some pricey LED monster flashlights use Li-ion 18650 small round bats which have their
own special lithium charger - but the bats last forever. This will be the flashlight pair
to look for....

[Commander 147]

Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.
Have heard that drastically reduces lumens.



ebb I was able to get replacement clear glass domes from Jim Reineck for our original fixtures. I also had to replace the part where the electrical wire ties into the fixture and he was able to provide those parts to me also.


Here is the link to his website..........


http://bronzeblocks.com/


Here are how the new LED bulbs look in the old fixtures.

[pbryant]

Nice looking lights!

>Their navlights look tidy, streamlined.... and they say will do 2NM, or more.
> Even emitting thru colored plastic 'lens'. Not sure where we stand on that problem.

Since LEDs have good color purity, there is not much of a point to using colored lenses. Colored lenses only reduce the intensity while performing no function.

What you can not do is project a white LED through a red or green lens and expect to get much colored light out. LED lights are "non black-body light sources". An incandescent lamp - which is a black-body source - projects light from a very hot filament, and it's spectral characteristics are spread out over a wide range of colors. So it behaves like a black object (body) heated to a specific temperature (called the color temperature) measured in degrees kelvin (degrees Celsius above absolute zero). The hotter it is, the more blue light is emits. An incandescent filament at 3,000 degrees kelvin produces a little blue light, more green, lots of red, and even more infrared (which is wasted energy). Since an incandescent produces light across the entire visual spectrum, you can filter it to one color. LEDs, even white LEDs, don't have an even spread of colors, and although they may appear to be a mix of all colors (white), they actually have sharp peaks and valleys in their spectrum. When the "white" LED light is passed through a colored filter, only a tiny percentage of the light of one color will pass through. Filtering a white LED to produce the same amount of green or red light may require more power than an incandescent lamp - negating the whole point of using LEDs.

[ebb]

Patrick, Thanks for the science on LED versus Black Body Incandescent!

Now that I got that straight, went back to the Marinebeam site (link, a couple posts (#132) up from here)
and reread the description for their bi-color and P/S side nav lights.
They do indeed have red and green emitting diodes INSIDE....but the plastic (looks like plastic) covers are also colored red and green.

And now that we are aware that the Achilles heel of LED is that it doesn't emit full spectrum light,
we can assume that a couple mm of transparent colored plastic can alter the intensity and color of LED behind it....
In Marinebeam's case, it must be OK. They aren't dummies, Right?:rolleyes:
Plastic being plastic, it is going to get etched by UV and elements... and is going to fog and further break-up the light. imco


Went through my stock and discovered I already have a set of 3 AquaSignal Series 33 LED navlights.
(2.75"L.x2"W.x1.75"H.) Made in Germany.

They do look more like knobs off a kitchen stove
than those smart bronze Deco teardrops Jerry shows in his fotos above!
(A338 came to me with some kind of pot metal side lights and no stern light.*)

Each AquaSignal Series 33 LED draws .18amp/2.2W and the literature says they are "USCG certified for 1 and 2 nm."
Marked with noticeable Euro CE on the cases.
Tidy matt white plastic snap-on housing, designed so that the housing cover surrounds the LED like it is an eyeball
... the single exposed emitter protected with a miniature CLEAR GLASS LENS.
Innovative design seems to solve the problems caused by encasing emitters inside plastic housing.

There is a disclaimer, that the lights are 'tested to be below approved IEC threshold values,
but make sure there is sufficient distance between lights and radio antennas and equipment.'


In contrast, Marinebeam navlight hype makes it sound like their lights cause absolutely NO VHF interference....AND exceed the 2NM limit.
The same enthusiastic hype boosts their colored plastic lens housing into an desirable aesthetic.

Both navlight sets have vented housings....therefor let water & ambient salt moisture in. What is "waterproof" are the potted emitters - not sure about that or metal connections hidden inside. Wire cable, no mention - for either product - whether connection wire is marine-grade tinned....(it isn't, imco)

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................
*Reineck retros (no doubt equal quality to their incredible bronze blocks) are $180 PER EACH.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......................................
AQUASIGNAL SERIES 33
For some reason known only to Defender, they do not list the stern light of this matched set....altho the diagram they use to show dimensions is of the stern light housing. All three have the same footprint. Their price is $45 per each. They can be found cheaper. Sold in a bulletproof hang-up blisterpac, they probably are available everywhere. Haven't scoured forums for reviews.

Because they stand proud almost two inches, a cross cabin dodger will have to be cut out to expose sidelights. Think that'll work quite well, given height and regular shape of the fixture. Imco, they can, because they are straight sided, snag lines coming to the cockpit along the cabin sides.

I have not yet used any of these navigation lights....

[pbryant]

Hi Ebb,

Nope. If they do cause RFI problems, it will only be when they are powered on. The AuquaSignal lights do have "CE" approval, so I doubt they will be a problem.

[ebb]

Reviewed a bit of history of this thread to see if masthead was covered. Getting forgetful.
because I wanted to ask what pbryant has 30 feet over his head when sailing at night.

Found the Practical Sailor response to my crab about their review of tri-colors.
Ebb believes tri-color masthead LEDS must also be FOUR LIGHT - just the way I am.

2010 in this thread:
Got upset with PS because they didn't admit that four color mastheads even existed,
and they excluded Hella and AquaSignal from their review. It generated a phone
response from the PS editor who was mifted at my language but still only responded
to half of my complaint.
So far as I've been able to determine, in the four years to the present, Practical
Sailor has not put together another all inclusive masthead light comparison test.
I think individual MHLs have been introduced, like the new lunasea. but nothing
that takes them on all together.

While I was 'wandering around', as PS called my search method, I stumbled onto a
patch hosted by SAILNET, that MaineSail holds forth on.
The thread is called:
Sometimes Practical Sailor Is Not So Practical..... from 5-30-2008
where he takes PS to task - in a much more fatherly way than I can - taking apart an
editorial called "Tinned Wire Myth Busted". Basically showing how wrong they are,
and showing us (featuring MaineSail's patented foto close ups)
how-where-when-why tinned wire MUST be used when wiring a boat. No cheating.

Looked at my Hella four light masthead* (and my set of AquaSignal Series 33 wire tails)
....all wire ends have have the silver look of being tinned.
*The Hella masthead clear housing is "UV resistant ultra heavy duty polyamide lens".
Both crystal clear lens and body composed of high performance nylon.
Also carries the CE symbol of Electromagnetic Compatibility (EMC). 7year warranty.
.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

What has happen to the magazine in these 4 years hasn't splashed any that I've heard.
There is a mean provinciality in having google whisk us to a site for some PS lowdown
on LED replacements for incandescents. Only to read a piece of the lead paragraph
that suddenly stops with: "If you want to read the rest of this article you must be a subscriber."
Really???? Maybe Practical Sailor isn't a dependable source of advice?
PS, Keep your advice close - in the bucolic backwaters of your karma.

[pbryant]

> Reviewed a bit of history of this thread to see if it was covered because I wanted to ask what pbryant has 30 feet over his head when sailing at night.

I have red-over-green lights conforming to COLREGs Rule 25(c) at the top of my mast (with conventional navigation lights down on deck). It's a rare configuration in these parts - but all the USCG licensed mariners have memorized: "Red over green -- sailing machine." Out in the Pacific, it's the big boats that worry me the most. I want there to be no ambiguity that I am a sailing vessel with a mast that might ding their prop as it passes through the blades.

Tinned wire is a must around salt water. Bare copper dissolves around seawater. I've repaired electronics on board vessels where, after stripping a wire, I discovered there was no copper left inside. And salt air will creep up unsealed insulation corroding bare copper a significant length inside the insulation. Tin plating isn't eternal, but it lasts much longer.

My procedure for making a splice is:

1) Make a Western Union splice (see graphic). This is the recommended method NASA uses. I've added to it the step of using a sealant. The splice will be as strong as the unspliced wire. You can read more here (https://web.archive.org/web/20090801165108/http://workmanship.nasa.gov/guidadv_recmeth_wusplice.jsp). If you are working with stranded wire, apply a thin coating of solder to the strands after twisting them together. This will prevent the strands from unroving when the splice is made.
2) Solder. I use 60/40 tin/lead with rosin flux core (never use acid core solders). Kester (http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70177921&mkwid=vfZvijsV&pcrid=30980760979&gclid=CjwKEAjw9qafBRCRiYrL4-fpuFkSJACvocQ1iZrnplwnw6hc15wRts0Pv3UkQwUKOj4HhAit xhMvTBoCLu3w_wcB) makes the best solder. Lead fumes are very bad for you. Solder only in adequate ventilation and avoid inhaling any of the fumes (the lead can boil on a hot iron releasing lead fumes that are easily absorbed if inhaled). If you inhale much lead you'll be as dumb as I am. Tin - with no lead - solder doesn't flow well, but it is safer. Use a soldering iron - not a gun. A good iron has a lot of mass in the tip that won't rapidly cool when it is applied to the wire joint. A gun will run too hot, will violently boil the solder, char the rosin core, contribute to oxidizing the wire and solder, and damage the insulation.
3) Remove any visible rosin (light brown to black in color), which you will only see if you used an inferior brand of solder. Remnant rosin can be mildly corrosive. Rosin is soluble in alcohol, ether, benzene and chloroform. Only alcohol is safe to inhale. Use isopropyl alcohol and a toothbrush.
4) Coat exposed conductor liberally with silicone or 3M 5200. Glob it on good.
5) Slide good quality (not Radioshack / Fry's) heat-activated-adhesive heat shrink tubing over the joint. Make sure there is an ample amount of heatshrink to cover the joint and insulation on both sides of the joint. I use Raychem heatshrink.
6) Use a heat gun (not a lighter or you'll burn the insulation) to shrink the tubing. If you used enough silicone/5200, it will ooze out both sides of the tubing when you shrink it.

I avoid like the plague all crimp-on solderless junctions. The action of crimping stresses the wire causing it to have very little flex (fatigue) life remaining. The connection depends on the metal material forming the crimp maintaining a state of compression - which gradually fades. Most of the factory crimped-on terminal lugs on my Ariel had relaxed to the point that the wires could be rotated inside the lugs. Water vapor/salt intrudes into the non-airtight junction and it eventually corrodes away. If there's substantial current flowing through it, it then gets hot and accelerates the corrosion: power dissipated as heat = current squared times resistance. The resistance rises with increasing corrosion, causing more power to be dissipated. Any junction that's a solderless crimp-on is a little ticking timebomb waiting to fail on the day you find yourself being clobbered by a ruff seastate.

If you are going to make wire junctions on a boat that last, you need to know how to solder. There's plenty of instructional material on line.

[ebb]

pbryant has a full statement over at the SailNetCommunity site on a current thread:
Red over Green Navigation Light. This is a revelation to me. Fantastic!

I'm eager to collect Patrick's tips, like that historic tried and true lineman's splice!:D
And recommendations for Kester rosin core solders. Having poisoned myself over the
centuries, I've a biosystem backlogged with toxins - which is why I'm so strong
on using green materials when available. Maybe I do tin.

What SIZE solder do you have around? I'll probably get one more roll this lifetime.
Plug in soldering iron OK?...garage sale?
And I see tube shrink wrap + glue comes in 4foot lengths in many diameters...
what's a reasonable variety of width and colors to do all new rewiring of Ariel338?
Sounds like an investment just for wrap! Thank you for your help!
.................................................. .................................................. ...........................

Can't find an all-round-red/all-round-green combined lamp - in the market.
....imco an all-round mast-top lamp must be combined with all-round white 'anchor' light.
As well as a strobe for the white. Freighter at sea - no can see me - no can me see.
(I can 'see' the lamp... stack of LED hockey pucks. The NewSealanders (Hella) can do it.)


SAILING VESSEL UNDERWAY. COLREGS Rule 25:
(a) a sailing vessel underway shall exhibit i) sidelights and ii) sternlight.
(b) In a sailing vessel of less than 20 meters length the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, may be combined in one lantern carried at or near the top of the mast where it can be best seen.

(c) A sailing vessel underway may, in addition to the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule, exhibit at or near the top of the mast, where it best can be seen,
two all-round lights in a vertical line, the upper being red and the lower green,
but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunction with the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule. [tri-color]
...
We can therefor exhibit a combined Red Over Green mast-top light in addition to the required red and green side lights and white stern light at the gunwale (boat-deck) level. Can not show masthead tri-color together with deck side lights. Or tri-color with R.O.G.
Assume we have legal deck lights showing when maneuvering near shore under sail after dark.
We are permitted at this time to ALSO exhibit a mast-top Red Over Green. [imco, the more moving colored light you can legally show over a dark backdrop - as when approaching the marina at night, with confusing dots of white light from dwellings, streets and freeways - the better!]
PLEASE CONFIRM THIS INTERPRETATION.

When we are under power with the sails up, we are by definition motorsailing and shall have no mast-top lights of any kind exhibited.
A small racer/cruiser will have the 'half mast' steaming light* ON. Plus the three deck lights - red-green-white ON.
*225 degree forward white light corresponds with the 135 degree stern light. (for 360 degree all round white.)
Commonly referred to as a masthead light, it could, imco, be called the mast HEADlight (forward facing)..... avoiding some confusion.

POWER DRIVEN VESSELS UNDERWAY. The >steaming< light is a navigation light. This is a popular term - not Colregs - probably created to solve the confusion between masthead light and masthead lightS. It is otherwise defined in Colregs Rule 21(a) as follows:
{Colregs uses these unusual quote marks, probably to draw attention that this lamp is not to be confused with mast top lights}
"Masthead light" means a whitelight placed forward over the fore-and-aft centerline of the vessel showing an unbroken light over an arc of horizon of 225 degrees and so fixed as to show the light from right ahead to 22.5 degrees abaft the beam on either side of the vessel.

Rule 23(d)(i) A power-driven vessel of less than 12 meters in lieu of the lights prescribed in paragraph 9(a)[larger vessels] of this Rule exhibits an all-round white light and sidelights.

The only light taller - on a moving power-driven boat - than red and green side light is an all-round white light. It can be assumed, imco, that if the stern light is OFF and the half-mast "masthead" 225 degree light is OFF**, AND side lights ON.... then the all-round mast-top white(anchor)light can be used instead...when motoring. [**because, maybe a 15foot off the deck "masthead light" is spilling too much light and interfering with "looking into the night".] An all-round white on the mast top on a moving power-driven sailboat doesn't compute for me.....
Why are the split 225/135 more acceptable? {Ebb, the reason is that a single all-round White can be interpreted as a boat anchored or aground.)

The combo down light option is not part of the Rules. [When wiring, imco, the foredeck light should be isolated from navlight panels.]
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....

HELLA TRI-COLOR and ANCHOR LIGHT mast-top lamp. As some already know, this is an extremely expensive LED navigation light. (No moreso than the competition.) Seems very well made. LOOKS expensive. Electronics are isolated and forever sealed inside a transparent elongated donut referred to as the 'light engine'. The hole is occupied by a hollow 316 10mm shaft that clamps the two basic parts together. There is an access wafer on top of the housing that when turned by a coin exposes the shaft's 19mm nyloc hex nut. When the nut is removed, the clear donut section can be lifted out, gaining access to the electrical plug connector. An 18" lead exits the housing through a rubber grommet out the bottom. The bottom section is fitted with a heavy cast plate that secures the center shaft - with 3 thru holes provided for fastening the lamp base to the mast... via a bracket, most likely. Date of manufacture etched on the rigid nylon polyamide lens [not acrylic or lexan.] Tri-color consumes less than 4W combined. All round less than 2W.

Contacted Hella - APAC & Middle East...Sales Manager immediately replied that the silver dollar sized access lid to the nut on top of the housing - which is not O-ringed against water
- doesn't provide a seal because the shaft that holds the lamp together isn't waterproof - even tho it is contained in and inhabits the center of the lamp.
My second question about the port and starboard LED, confirms that the emitters themselves are red and green.
The small transparent red/green covers over the emitters inside are cosmetic*** - making the lamp's DIY orientation visual. Naked stern light and topmost all-round white emit thru clear all-round lens. We assume that colored plastic does not restrict or alter the color of the side emitters.
Haven't found anything negative on the web about this tri-color.....except its price.
[***the colored material is unnecessary, imco. The light engine module is sealed, covers cannot be removed.]
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ........

RED OVER GREEN - what does it mean? When sighted, it will instantly ID the light as SAILBOAT. A good thing offshore.
Why not integrate this exceptional SAILBOAT SPECIFIC navigation aid with our little ships... before Rule25(c) is removed from Colregs for lack of use?

[ebb]

Sorry. Run out of space in the last post. Here, one last time, a summary:

RUNNING LIGHTS
RED OVER GREEN is a valid navlight option... that pbryant brings forward.
The Brits are well aware of the Red Over Green COLREGS Rule benefit. Might see it as a gift.
Here is a site I'm using for reference from http://www.boatlamps.co.uk/

The three lamp choices for Sailing Vessels Underway and Vessels Under Oars:
(consider what follows interpretive and not verbatim)*

...|Rule 25(a) Sailboat under sail only: Red and Green side lights, and 135 degree White stern light.

...|Optional. Rule 25(b) Sailboat under sail only: Combined tri-color. [No deck lights.]

...|Optional. lRule 25(c) Sailboat under sail only: Red and Green side lights, and 135 degree White stern light.
...|PLUS, in addition exhibit, where they can best be seen, two all-round lights in a vertical line: Red Over Green.
This is an acceptable option not required by law.
More lights make your boat more visible.

There is no other Colreg Rule that has VERTICAL Red over Green orientation.
That makes this exclusive color combination recognizable to larger boats, power boats, USCG as a SAILBOAT.
And that is why knight sailors like pbryant use them.

RUNNING UNDER SAIL WITH ENGINE
...|Rule 25(e): Sailboat motor sailing [partially or fully under power] Red and Green side lights, and 135 White stern light.
...|PLUS, White "masthead light" - showing with an arc of 225 degrees.
[Diagrams are nearly always consistent, that this 'mast headlight' is never shown at the top of the mast on a sailboat.]
The separation and height change of stern and masthead - for an all-round White light - in this Rule is expected to be seen on any POWER-DRIVEN VESSEL UNDERWAY (Whites at different Heights). An all-round MAST TOP WHITE LIGHT with side lights (NO STERN LIGHT) is permitted. The problem with this is that sailboat status is entirely given up by Colregs...along with the stern light, the r.o.g. can't be exhibited either!

Red and Green lights are always associated with sailing and power vessels moving under command.

ANCHORED OR AGROUND
There is no distinction between power and sailing vessels at anchor:
...|Rule 30(b): A vessel (at anchor) of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round White light where it can best be seen...
[No colored lights.]
This Rule holds for any vessel less than 12 meters that is aground.
For a vessel having no all-round white, imco, a sailboat exhibiting ONLY the two 135/225 White lights... will suffice.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
No LED red-over-green (with anchor light) combo lamp is available in the market. Singles are available, but not from Hella.

AQUASIGNAL Series 34 LED All-Round Navigation Lights. White, Red, Green. Double-puck size: 3"D x 2.25H. Not meant to be stacked. Possibly a sort of s.s. wire cage can be constructed to make a single 'lantern' to hold three lights stacked: Red($222) over green($100) over white($100). Wires will have to run on the outside of the housings, as well as the cage material...but I imagine it can be accomplished so as to allow upkeep. Assume the small amounts of foreign material crossing the lens won't be noticable, or diminish apparent intensity of light. $$$ puts it way out of my budget.
Defender shows a shorter 34 model, 3"Dx1.25"H. Red, $240. Green, $100. White, $100. FisheriesSupply has the 2.25" Red for $140.57 and shows the list price as $200. Housing/lens: polycarbonate. Series 34 sealed light is a single emitter, rather than an array. CE - 3yrW.

The HELLA LED tri-color (plus all-round white) mast-top lamp is a very tidy 3.25"D x 3.75"H. 7yrW. (Defender $543 - holy smokes!) It is unique in that the light engine module is a donut with a shaft down the center that holds it to the top & bottom lamp housing. Easy to imagine all-round colored donuts like the anchor light stacked as a light engine instead of the tri-color: I began e-mail discussion with a Hella rep, asking if a single 3light all-round Colregs inspired lamp might have been contemplated by Hella.
Pretty sure my incurable curmudgeon status became apparent to him...and I was dismissed as a nutter.

LOPOLIGHT is a Danish company whose line of LED navlights are based on the hockey-puck model. They have had enough technical problems in the past to make their very appealing design seem unreliable. Easy to envision a red-over-green-plus-white lamp...but they don't go there.
pyacht.com sells an ALL LED 2nm combination White "masthead light"/ deck light ....(combo 225 degree steaming light/deck light). "Submersible" $556.95. 3.6"x3"x2". (In the same housing they sell a 3nm for over $800 !)[B]
{Later EDIT: Colregs requires one meter separation between red over green lamps...see below.}

Neither the google search algorithm nor manufacturers nor venders are able to agree on what Colregs establishes as the Rule25(e) "masthead light."
As a useful modern sailboat product, the mast light combo has never completely made it into the present LED generation. Deck light function is still almost without exception a power sucking halogen. The AquaSignal deck light part of the combo I have is completely open and exposed - probably to dissipate bulb heat. Spreader lights have morphed into LED - why not the deck light? Possible to upgrade the masthead with an LED festoon, but not the decklight. No authority will recommend doing this.
AquaSignal, Hella8504, and Forespar masthead light combos have deck light incandescents. Assume none to be a sealed electrical fixture.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
*The International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, COLREGS can be printed out in a very nice 18pg form: www.bosunsmate.org/
And a whole raft of support material. You will find the 'Rule' quotes above fleshed out in their full bureaucratic rhetorical glory. Make a copy!
.................................................. .....................................
:confused: how does pbryant rig his red on green?

[ebb]

That is the title of a thread with a number of interesting posts, pro and con, LED vs incandescent. www.sailnet.com > > Skills and Seamanship > pg 4 of the menu of threads: Seamanship & Navigation.
To follow is a verbatim from pg 6 of the 'dangers' thread:

10.23.2013 posted by capta:
I was on watch steaming south through the Anegada Passage one night some years back, wide awake and sober by the way, on a freighter. Bridge height about 60 feet.
From the port bridge wing I saw a red or green light (I don't remember which) ahead, and it appeared to be a mile or more away.
I walked into the bridge to check the radar and out of the corner of my eye saw that light pass close to the port bridge wing.
I ran out and saw about a 40' sailing boat under full sail sliding aft no more than 10 feet from the ship!
I had already completed a circumnavigation under sail and numerous transAts and transPacs before this,
so I was an experienced sailor and would not ignore a sailboat's lights or take them lightly.
Ever since that night I have been passionately against masthead tricolor and consider them to be incredibly dangerous.
A single colored or white disembodied light gives absolutely No depth/distance perception
and no light at all shines on the water, boat or sails.
Several times on Long Island Sound, I have had other boats masthead running lights obscured by my bimini
and thought the guy an idiot, sailing unlit!
You can do as you please, but nothing on earth would ever convince me to sail under one.
[capta tags his post with this quote;]
"Any idiot can make a boat go - it takes a sailor to stop one." Spike Africa aboard the schooner Wanderer in Sausalito, CA 1964

This is a post essentially taken out of context from a lengthly thread.
Here's two cents:
It is not known what time period this close-call occurred. nor does it matter. The operative is the single light shining out of each
segment of the tri-color light. In this story, the tri-color could have been incandescent. Or the tricolor could have had single emitter LED for each color. Take capta's experience as something that could have happened to anybody on that bridge. That, of course, is the point...

.....The only lamp that can have an all-round emitter display (30 or 40, or more) is the all-round Red over Green. The sheer
number of LEDs in each color will exhibit a more unique concentration of light (even if limited to 2NM) than a single emitter. Imco.

This sounds like a plug for LEDs. And I could be convinced that multiple array LEDs White over Red over Green isn the ONLY way to go
to legally create better light for our sailboat at night. I'll be looking for 3NM for the mast-top!!!
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................

Interesting that the implied deck-level lights at sea may be more useful for the freighter to visually ID the sailboat.
The tri-color (at 34' above the water on an Ariel) probably produces NO SHINE ON THE WATER.
Colregs allows no other specific lights with a mast-top tri-color. Legally NO nav lights below!
Maybe mentioned in this thread, have heard that some sailors display inside cabin lights to help tell-tale the boat.

For the sailboat under power (propeller) the Colregs required "masthead light" found as a combo 15 feet off the deck on an A/C is a light that could be used tactically to show the boat in an emergency. The deck light cannot be used because it compromises night vision. However:
Given the lack of information a lookout on a freighter's bridge has when it comes to identifying sitting ducks under sail,
:cool:I'm now looking for an extra 2NM LED UP LIGHT for the front of the mast (at 15 feet) to be mounted on top of the 225 to shine straight up the mast, light it up, and any sail up there. Obviously help wake-up a lookout's attention to....whatn the hell is that boat out there?
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
LED RETROS?
MaineSail has a couple photos of a lengthly shelf talker promanently displayed in his local Hamilton Marine store.
Emphasizes that lamps are CG certified as designed fixtures, not by bulb inside, and taking out an incandescent and substituting an LED could be bad news in a number of ways..... Read it, same page as the post I've quoted above....well worth the visit.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................
LED REPLACEMENTS
Later EDIT. The Aqua-Signal 25 10W12A masthead/deck light combo is, imco, a temporary fixture. The mandated 225 degree mast headlight should be in its own waterproof IP68 case. This fixture is not waterproof. It cannot be made waterproof with goop or gasket. The electrical contacts for the bulbs are not protected, especially the deck light function. This fixture was designed by a half-brained idiot. This is not marine equipment. Merely correct marine décor for chumps like me.

It's now about a year later, and led trade-outs for incandecent bayonets and festoons are well established. One source for led replacements is Dr Led. This company has experienceed too many failures to be a trustworthy source. Cruiser's Forum and SaiNet by count have dozens of sailors complaining. One ledapple tree loaded with rotten apples. You can tell from the Specifications that certain important things are missing from the descriptions of the bulbs. Country of origin might be one important to you. But another is the CE symbol which guarantees that EMFs are at a minimum to strict standards. DON"T USE DR. LED LEDS IN YOUR masthead combo.

Go to Marinebeam.com. Look at the difference between the bayonet decklight offered by Marinebeam and Dr L. This is the exposed socket on the mast. Dr L's is an unprotected cluster of chips, but the M. has a single 5W Cree emitter protected by a glass 30degree spot lens. At 16ft up the mast, this bulb should make a 8'D of light.
Replacement for the BA9S mini-bayonet is the BA9S Replacement SKU-9S-5W --$18 2W#,150mS (150lumens)
Replacement Festoon SV8.5 is the 42mm/44mm Festoon LED Navigation Light Cone End Type Mini-Max. SKU FS-42-30C --$25 Constant Current Wattage 3.2W, 270mA. (175lumens). CE and RoHS compliant. Technically sound.

Read Jeff Field's www.marinebeam.com/ "What You Need To Know Before Buying LED Cluster Lighting For Your Yacht"
(Read it? Now you know why you didn't waste your money on Dr. LED ! !)
These replacements are designed to be correct for the A-S fixture.
Only possible caveat is that both emitters are cool white. Which is OK, as long as the light is not a blue wash.

[pbryant]

93879360> how does pbryant rig his red on green?

The COLREGs require that the vertical separation of the red light over the green light be 1 meter (39.4 inches). This vertical separation requirement is, I believe, the reason no commercial product is sold that conforms to the Rule 25(c) requirements.

There is an exception: if the vessel is less than 12 meters, the separation can be smaller and proportional to a 12 meter vessel. So an 8 meter Ariel could have a vertical separation of 8/12 meter: 0.67 meter (26.4 inches). Two lights separated by 1 meter will appear to the naked eye as two distinct lights at a distance of one nautical mile (according to the COLREGs).

My installation looks just like the illustration in the COLREGs (attached below). I have a red all-around light at he masthead, and four green navigation lights mounted on the mast at the uppermost level of my mainsail with the first reef taken in (I rarely sail with the main unreefed since it balances my 100% jib with the first reef taken in). My 100% jib also does not extend all the way up to the masthead. The four green navigation lights are mounted so two face forward and two aft on each side of the mast, forming a 360 degree arc.

If someone wanted to produce a commercial product, it would have to be on a pole with the red all-around light at the top.

[ebb]

I couldn't possibly disagree with you...

I've now found and read the Annex 1 - Continued..... of Colregs

DANG, Read it as all 'power-driven' vessels.
How can they have a rule for sail driven boat that requires top all-round lights to be separated
by whatever distance when the driver sail must be up the mast and will block any lights
lower than the mast top. They didn't think
it through, did they?
Colregs rule-makers are all miserable power boaters.

Sorry, I'll go back and erase what I can in previous posts ASAP.


Ran into a post of yours that explained how you did it.
but wasn't paying attention: Maybe sailnet forum or Cruiser forum - too wigged out to recall....
Now, I'll be trying to figure out a LEDgreen collar for the mast at your recommended separation....
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............


Patrick, Thanks for the clarification of the bloddy rules in the FOLLOWING post!

I also found that stand alone googlation of yours at http://www.sailnet.com/forums/806167-post25html
dated 12-13-2011.... Thread: Red Over Green.....Red over Green: Sailing Machine
Me go absorb phase now...bye...

[pbryant]

The vertical separation requirement is in Annex I:


§ 84.03 Vertical positioning and spacing of lights
(...)
(i) When the Rules prescribe two or three lights to be carried in a vertical
line, they shall be spaced as follows:
(1) On a vessel of 20 meters in length or more such lights shall be
spaced not less than 1 meter apart, and the lowest of these lights
shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height
of not less than 4 meters above the hull;
(2) On a vessel of less than 20 meters in length such lights shall be
spaced not less than 1 meter apart and the lowest of these lights
shall, except where a towing light is required, be placed at a height
of not less than 2 meters above the gunwale;


Rule 3 defines....


(i) The word “underway” means that a vessel is not at anchor, or made fast
to the shore, or aground.

A vessel not underway should display:

1) When anchored an anchor light.
2) When aground, two red lights in a vertical line (the same as "not under command"). We were taught: "Red over red -- this boat is dead."

That's Rule 30, and there is no distinction between power driven or sailing vessels since - if the vessel isn't moving - its usual method of propulsion is irrelevant -- it's not being propelled by anything.

There are some exemptions to the requirement for anchor lights on small vessels.

[ebb]

Vessel aground:
In Rule 30 (d) (i) two all round red lights in a vertical line.
.....................(ii) three balls in a vertical line.

................ (f) A vessel of less than 12 meters in length, when aground, shall not be[/I] required to exhibit
the lights and shapes prescribed in subparagraphs (d) (i) and (ii) of this Rule.


Vessel at anchor:
Rule 30 (b) A vessel of less than 50 meters in length may exhibit an all-round white light where it can best
be seen instead of the lights prescribed in paragraph (a) of this Rule.
{(a) describes the placement of two white lights on a vessel.}

These Rules use 'shall' and 'may' to prescribe use of lights and shapes. With 'shall' being more absolute.

'May' in the permission of Rule 30 (b) may not exclude an
all-round white that shall be exhibited (Rule 30 (a) (ii) at or near the stern and at a lower level than the all-round light that shall be exhibited (i) in the fore part of a vessel.
In other words, a second lower all-round white at or near the cockpit of an A/C shall not be excluded - and may not be breaking any Rules.
And shall help deter any breaking and entering, should the owner be away from his or her anchored vessel, or asleep onboard.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........................................

ANNEX 1
I can understand and accept the science of the visibility of lights displayed together,
with separation of the lights intended to keep them visible at 1NM and 2NM distances:

ANNEX 1 Position and Technical Details of Lights and Shapes.*
The whole thing refers almost specifically, and without a doubt consistently, to power-driven vessels.
That's perhaps why the wide separation of R.O.G. vertical lights seems so grotesque when interpreted for a sailboat,
as an Annex Rule is being applied to Rule 25(c) boats under sail alone.
Sail vessels under sail are not alluded to in any of the Rules in Annex 1.
It is not reasonable, imco, to garner Rules for a R.O.G. sailing machine... reefed of not...from Annex 1.
*Masthead lights are consistently referred to in Annex 1,2,3. Masthead lights are prescribed for power-driven vessels.
This is, imco, another indication that the Annex Rules are what they constantly refer to:
FOR POWER-DRIVEN vessels, not sailboats under sail. (But do apply, of course, to power-driven sailboats.)


Imco the separation of lights of the SAME COLOR is what the power-driven Rules are all about.
Believe that red and green light can be interpreted at Nautical Mile distances when the lamps are much closer together than one meter - simply because the lights have separate wave lengths. Red over red needs separation.

Of course this is all reduced by the legal difficulty inherent in not following the Rules.

Capt Bryant, sir, your solution is very clever indeed.
You have persuaded me that R.O.G is the only way to go.
(Shall try to keep the tri-color/anchor light at mast top, but add an all-round red also at mast top....
And ring the mast lower down with green LED. I'm a believer in Redundancy.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..........

If I'd observed all the rules, I'd never have got anywhere. Marilyn Monroe

[ebb]

pbryant, referring to your post at #143, on this page...

In keeping with Colregs special dispensations granted to under 12 meter vessels.... the proportionate math for the separation of vertical all-rounds is also entirely reasonable for a 2NM permitted navigation light vessel of 8 meters... in length....under sail.
It is in keeping with the spirit of the Rules, and with the urgency of identifying smaller moving sailboats in a variety of hairy conditions.

However, if the meter separation between green and red all-rounds is adhered to by all who choose to exhibit sailboat exclusive R.O.G.,
the amount of separation seen by another ship can be used to guesstimate distance from the observer to the sailboat. Wider the separation, the
closer the sailboat - closer red and green appear together, the further the boat is from observer. I'll do the full meter on litlgul's mast.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...............................................

{This can be skipped for the reason given in the next section}
CREATING ALL-ROUND ON THE MAST
Assume that incandescents are obsolete, and LED is the light source of choice. Expensive - and ridiculously expensive.
However, LED light has much going for it: Durable long lasting life - 20,000 to 100,000 hours. More compact sizes. Much less current draw. Smaller wires. And if designed well, tolerates a sodium cloride environment.
For navlights up the mast, those risky trips to fiddle with light bulbs are done for. LEDs arrived and are here to stay.
They have also been around awhile, hopefully making them more reliable. If the light goes, the whole expensive 'light engine' must be replaced.

{Deleted section here about Attwood's 'reasonably priced' 2" round Wall mount red and green sidelights rated for 50,000hrs with a 10yr warranty.}

It finally occurred to self to find out if these sidelights are CE approved.
No knowledgeable vendors - finally got through to Attwood.
The bottom third of this post has been replaced:
DO NOT USE THESE ATTWOOD LED SIDELIGHTS on your mast with VHF antenna.

LEDs on a boat need expensive switching drive circuits that operate at high frequencies - and must maintain very high slew rates.
Can't give you a definition of slew as I'm unplugged, but it has to do with the maximum rate of change in voltage output.
The manufacturer of better LEDs must add more complicated design to his 'light engine' to offer EMI mitigation.
Blocking electromagnetic interference comes at a cost...to us.
Attwood 3570-7 2NM vertical sidelights do not have CE certification.

We cannot ring the mast with these LEDs. What off-the-shelf LED lamp can be used? Haven't a clue.

The salesman I talked with at Attwood said a "quiet design was deliberately left out", or more likely considered an unnecessary expense. Hence their 'attractive' price at $77 a pair. ASSUME THIS ATTITUDE EXTENDS TO ALL OF THEIR PRODUCTS.
Until confirmed otherwise these LEDs are a big potential problem interacting with VHF radio, antenna and other electronic devices like solar controllers. http://forums.oday.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?t=154064 ....VHF Noise Suppression {no Attwoods here}
Did you know that compliance with FCC Part 15 and the CE "Is primarily based on the honor system."
Other problems: the salesman couldn't tell me about: how short the wire tails are, no links to a manual, no country of origin
Imco, these are not genuine navigation lights.

There are some Hella Compact Sidelights 2.79"l x 2.09"W x 1.29"H (CE unknown) 4 sets $720 among a bunch of vertical nav sisdelights on the market. What WAS most attractive about the Attwood is the circular footprint, one dimensional 2"D and their spherical 1" height. Really too bad Attwood did not go the extra nautical mile and give their sidelights global status. Their hype states that the lamps exceed USCG requirements. Not stated as an approval.
Defender presents AquaSignal 2NM Series 33 LED vertical sidelights with a dimension diagram: 2.68"L x 2"W x 2.05"H.
I'll be using these at hull level on LittleGull. Their more than double volume (compared with Attwood 3570-7) would look stramge anywhere on the mast, imco, and the elongated footprint would make them awkward, if not impossible, to position on the mast curves. They were never meant for masts, anyway. Approvals: BSH, USCG, IMO COLREGS, GL, RINA, ABYC A-16, CE. World Class, wouldn't you say?? We hope these AS Series 33 lamps are world class dependable.
CE is a mandatory EU logo used to indicate a device conforms to EMC Directives and is similar to US FCC Declaration of Conformity.
ALSO, look for the International Protection Code on LED. IP65 is 'weatherproof'. But IP68 is the highest rating for protection against dust intrusion (6). Highest mark for continuous water intrusion (submersion) is (8) and is called 'waterproof'.
$77 for the Attwood pair. $90 for the AquaSignal. Can't find any current navigation sidelights to use at mast top.
Attwood shaves $13 and ends up selling a toy - rather than the dependable safety device a navigation lamp has to be.

No R.O.G.s in this BOG.

[ebb]

Seems like this exchange here has stopped.

Have decided not to use any off-shelf LED navigation lamps for all-rounds at mast-top.

Will be using Waterproof LED Flexible Light Strips.

Have located FCC/CE IP68 strips installed (per Colregs r.o.g.) on a SFBay Triton.

Nufsaid. Later.
.................................................. .................................................. .........................
Two person or singlehanded offshore night sailing wisely suggests reefing the mainsail.
A 4' luff reef would expose enough mast for meter separation between all-round
red at mast top and all-round green 39" below.

[Lucky Dawg]

Anyone know the size of the steaming light festoon bulb? Not finding it in discussion topics or the manual. Replacing my incandescent with LED. I can climb a ladder and investigate, but I thought I'd ask the collective brain trust for a replacement part size / model if anyone knows...

I found these 12v A15 size LED bulbs to replace the incandescents in the cabin wall fixtures. Don't know if my fixtures are stock or replacements. With shipping, the bulbs are $20 each (yeow!!) but I like the minimal battery draw.

9589

[roythomas]

What is a festoon?

[ebb]

p bryant. Give this guy your full attention. Ebb is way too wordy and gets confused.
It's the end of the year almost -- I feel like this one, 2021, deserves a big boot, but
there are many confused and destructive souls around that only time can cure. At
the moment even a mutating virus is smarter than science.

MAST HEAD LIGHT CONFUSION
So I won't mention Colregs or IRPCS.

What is a steaming light? It is a FORWARD FACING NAV LIGHT.
It is not an ALL ROUND. It is a WHITE light displaying a 225 degree
forward facing arc. All boats have this light including freighters.
Sailboats have the same light so they are able to legally power
at night without using their sails. Along with a 360degree allround
tricolor at the top of a mast OR a spread of three red, green, and
white navigation lights at deck level. Never both at the same time.
At deck level We have red/green sidelights as a bi-color in the pulpit
and/or at the cabin's aft corners - also never lit at the same time.
The pulpit combo light even at IP67 is vulnerable and exposed.
Redundant side lights seems prudent..


Sailboats use the term 'mast head light' for a 225degree navlight
found above deck level usually mounted on the mast. We could use
a white stern light up there, but it would not be appropriate. These
days the forward facing light is combined with a down facing white
spot light. It is not a navigation light. At night it lights up the
foredeck (and messes with your night vision). And legally would not
be on at the same time as the steaming lamp.


How to keep this straight? Simple.. Consider and spell it

'mast HEADLIGHT',

like your wheels. That would arrange the other spelling as MASTHEAD
light. No single light we have nav lights up there ljke the tri-color,
port - stbd - stern - allround white light called ANCHORlight - never
used when the vessel is moving. We do NOT have a legal navigation
masthead light. You
certainly can call the tricolor mast-top a single fixture (sometimes the
combo nav light that sometimes may include the allround white anchor
lamp.) But mast headlight is better reserved as navigation
nomenclature for a forward facing white lamp of a vessel UNDER POWER.

And that is why a mast headlight is not at the mast head (mast top).


There is a movement afloat to sail at night offshore with
RED OVER GREEN,
allround nav lights that pbryant is a proponent. He has posted here and
elaborated on a Cruising site how to wire and switch the system. Serious
cruisers are unanimous in NOT obeying the single tricolor on a dark hull
directive. If you will, they say it's at your peril. But it is the current rule..
If you insist, I suggest for our boats a 3NM tricolor..

I've now gone with MARINEBEAM 3.5" x 3" plastic IP67 navlights. At the
moment I'll go with the redundancy of having a red/green bicolor in the
pulpit and a 2nd set on the cabin-trunk sides where the originals were.
Creative mounting require4d. $89 ea. 2021.
I chatted with mb & asked him if they had a R.O.G. in the works.. Nope.
They will have to come up with something soon, there's $$$ to be made
there. imco, in a dark & stormy night it's preferable to be lit up like a truck.
Marinebeam wld be reasonable and do it right.

pbryant has a solution that makes sense. He has mounted two allround
greens about a meter down his mast on the opposite port & starboard
sides when lit up throw enuf green to look green all round -- and with
the single red allround on the mast-top passes for R.O.G. (Green has double
the lumens but the red is in the alpha spot.) His single 3 position toggle
switch solution exists here or on the Cruising site, he hasn't revealed whose
allrounds he used. At night we'd probably have a reef in the main -- sure
I would! [This toggle switch is intuitive. Will find & record it here.]


MOST IMPORTANT.. we in R.O.G. at the same time are allowed to have our
DECK LIGHTS ON. And the ability to indicate the vessel's length with pulpit
and stern lights seems prudent. Red over Green, with its unique separation,
is instantly recognizable by professionals as a sailboat under sail.

R.O.G. is for an offshore boat under sail at night. Personally, sailing r.o.g.
I wld have the pulpit bi-color on, the cabin mounted green and red off,
and stern light on. And the r.o.g. instantly registers with the lookout
size, type, direction, location and speed of the interloper. If lookout on the
other vessel isn't responding, I'd probably use a wildly agitated spotlight.
Or a flare!~!


Some time ago evidently I followed thru on this & lo found in my stash 3
allround HELLA LAMPS: two green, one red. Base is 3", stand-out about
3", which is a stretch for an apparent single lamp 3"+mast 3.5"+3". 2NM
- LED - CE - 9-33V. Found inside the blister-pac: IP67. $105.99 ea. 6/2018.


Take care..