Silicone is truly evil.

[c_amos]

Silicone. :mad: :mad: :mad:

This is truly an evil evil thing. I removed all the hardware from the area surrounding the lazzerette hatch this afternoon. Sadly, it was not bedded in 4200, or even 5200. It was gooped in Silicone sealant.

I know I will have to remove it, and grind all of the gell coat off that has been in contact with it, and then hope foe th best.

The reason for this post is simply to say, for anyone who may not know.

Do not ever use silicone sealant on any surface on your boat that will ever need to be painted!

It really does not stick well, and it wicks into the paint/gelcoat and makes it nearly impossible to get paint to stick to anyting in the future!

Thanks for listening. I may be better now :o

[dasein668]

I find that it actually sticks too well.... but not where you expect it to. I just pulled the old toe rail off my boat and have spent seemingly endless hours trying to get the hellish material off. Yuck.

I second c_amos's plea for no silicone! The stuff has no place anywhere in this world except inside computers... ;)

[ebb]

At best silicone is a form in place high temperature gasket material. That's it. On a boat it does everything else really badly and without forgiveness. Evil!

For a more dispassionate review of alternatives to evil silicone check out

www.bosunsupplies.com

Go to 'knowledge' up top.
'useful info' next - then
'adhesive sealants'


I've just removed the coamings on 338. Like everywhere else: evil silicone. But looks like the dfo merely did the toothpaste onestep and slapped them back on with 2" #14 s.s screws for whatever reason he tookem off. Criminal the way it stuck to the gelcoat where they are mounted and hardly at all to the varnished wood. If you are interested in 'coaming' do the 'search' bar up top here.

The virgin gelcoat exposed by removing the coamings seemed easy to scrape once the original bedding compound and the silicone was pulled off. Don't think that here, anyway, we have to go down to the glass. On 338 there is a slight but noticable concave surface to the molded surface of the boat. It was put there, no doubt, so that the coaming would lie tight with the least amount of crack between it and the deck when screwed on. And also hold a layer of bedding.

The other bedding material under the transparent blobs had the color of fried bacon. Wood should always be bedded with something so that rot won't have a place to start. This is a great place for Dolphinite. a non-adhesive bedding compound. [OR BUTYL] Protects the wood (which should be at least varnished, but better to epoxy here) and helps keep water out of the fastenings and the ancient encapsulated mahogany in there what holds the screws. I think the coamings were originally put on with Dolpinite paste.

I also removed the winch pads. They had never been off the boat. So what was revealed was a snapshot of the day the pads were bolted down on the deck. Wonderful! The larger footprint showed the same translucent bedding bacon colored compound, some in the center still movable - 40 years!. Some Dolphinite back then was pretty evil too. Like pentachlorophenol, something bad, in the formula. It had the reputation that whenever two pieces were put together with this stuff, nothing happened in that joint, nothing.

The winch pad bottoms. themselves, are like brand new. I understand that the Dolphinite on the market today is nowhere as lethal yet has a good rep too for protecting mating surfaces. The winch pads were bolted on with a sinle 5/16" bolt thru the center - plenty of opportunity over 40 years for water to get between the wood and the deck!

Best treat was to see a bit of the original deck there under the winch pads. The antiskid pattern on 338 was not 'basket weave' or 'pyramid'. It was tiny barely separated squares, slightly larger than 1/16" with three miniature cuts or slices in the top surface of each one! Can't hardly imagine what the peeler was on this one that released it from the mold trhe deck was made in. I would have to argue the antiskid was applied to the deck after the deck was on the boat. It must have been high-tech stuff in 1965. It's long gone except for these two archeological prints.

[ebb]

C'amos, G'day,
Think to add, thanks to your banner headline/thread, something you know, but others might not.
That is,
Do not use any solvent (or heat) in the attempt to prep the surface of the evil silicone violated surface. Solvents are drivers, they will end up pushing the oily residue deeper into the porus gelcoat. Mechanical scraping, hand scuffing with nylon pad without heat buildup is the only way. And the caveat to this is the grit of sanding sheets can make deeper grooves into which the silicone oil is forced. What they say.

The oily stain produced by silicone is a general observation by workers. Haven't seen any micro photos of this phenomenon. Ditto sanding surface grooves with silicone deposits. Sometimes this kind of 'knowledge' gets passed from one author to another like rumors. Like it sounds right. It might not be as bad as you've been led to think. And you may have done some of this we're not supposed to do. I have. Therefor test the de-evil-siliconed surface with a daub of good quality 2-part epoxy. Let it set. See if you can lift it off with a metal spatula.

If you can, then more scraping (shaving) is necessary. You find hand scrapers with carbide blades, including shaped ones, in independant hardware stores. BACHO has nice ones for detail, and just got a two inch wide one from Rockler but haven't tried it yet on glass, which is the test.

But if you don't want to mess with the gelcoat. it is possible to have a solution with a mental shift! Instead of attempting to create a surface that adhesive will stick to........ just consider it a bearing surface requiring a gasket. The wood on an A/C shouldn't be glued on, metal fittings neither. They are bedded with the main purpose to keep water out of the thru fastenings. Deadlights would be better served if they compressed a gasket. So, in theory, no prep is necessary at all!

White vinegar for two-part epoxy clean up is a green alternative becoming popular. Perhaps it might be useful as a degreaser/cleaner for rebedding. It is easier to use than Simple Green detergent in the work place.

[mbd]

Uh oh! I could swear Don Casey's book, "This Old Boat", suggested using silcone as a rubber-like gasket when dry mounting and reseating your deck hardware. I used it on my previous boat, an ODay 22 when I upgraded my chainplates...
:o

[ebb]

hiya Mike,
Key word: DRY mounting.
Forming gaskets in place, like on near vertical surfaces, must be an artform in and of itself. I will never be able to do it. But if you are squeezing dry silicone rubber between two immovable objects, it's a gasket. Probably has an effective working life of 50 years, longer than you or me for sure and five times longer than 5200.

Ever hear if those plates are still waterproof? :D

[mbd]

Lost touch with the new owner, but I'm hoping he's not blasting the PO on some ODay list somewhere! :cool:

[Theis]

My understanding is that Silicone is only sealing windows and their frames. Period. I used it on the windows and it works fine. Do not use sulfite as it does not work and will start leaking in a couple years, and be cleaned and replaced with silicone. But silicone is messy stuff, and difficult to both get off the sorrounding window opening (beyond the window frame) and impossible to get of the plastic windows (I guess I should have taped the windows, but didn't).

Don't use 5200 for the fittings if you ever want to get them off. It will take the gel coat off with it (at least that eliminates the sanding). I have had super experience using 5200 as a glue/adhesive that also seals (even when I don't need a sealer - like gluing two rusty cast iron peices together). If I recall, 4200 is a removable version of the 5200.

Otherwise, the word is to use sulfite for fittings, the coaming, etc. I have done that and it works well. No problems and it is long lived.

The problem I have not figured out is that Boatlife products are mixtures of various stuff, and I don't know how their products compare to the 3M and West products which are sulfide, silicone or polysomethingorother (5200).

[willie]

Great reading in GOB nov/dec. issue. What to use where, why, and how come!
Worth the price of the mag.

[dasein668]

I know quite a few people who swear by butyl sealant for their ports and deadlights. Haven't tried it myself, but I may give it a go when they go back in this spring...

[ebb]

Yea! Butyl is civilized caulking. It is caulking, not sealant, not adhesive. Comes in tubes and sheets, so you could actually cut to a pattern and fit it. Elegant. Intricate installation can be completely disassembled by civilized methods.

But if you are paranoid and your parts don't fit good and you feel a need to power your fittings together, and you too chicken to use the real stuff, 5200!, than, of course, squirt on a lower number compound, compromise with the not so macho rubber blubber bummer.

Have you asked your Self just why the COAMINGS have to be GLUED on? No, they don't.
Why would you GLUE your HANDRAILS on? No. they don't. Why would you GLUE your STANCHION BASES on? No, you don't What is it: snit, bad temper, frustration? What ever it is it is overkill. OK? 'Cuse me. And, to remove the compound you get to shell out another couple sawbucks for the chemical RELEASE! Y E A ! Hey. it's the right stuff. Gotcha, baby!

[c_amos]

First,

I hope no one takes offence the red ink earlier in the thread. I do hate silicone though, all the more so after scraping it out from under my combings, grab rails, hatch slide rails.... :mad:



The reason for this post though relates to your statement about Butyl caulking. Does it sufficiently adhere to the surface to assist in the bonding?

I like it for the grab rails, since they are through bolted. I wonder if it would be ok for the teak boards the hatch slides mount to since they are just screwed from the bottom through the cabin top? I was thinking 4200 there for the additional strength. (Of course, this will eventually be protected by the sea hood anyway...) :cool:

The varnish is drying on these parts as I type this, but I prefer the idea of not having to deal with more adhesive if there is no need.



OBTW;
I wish I had caught this the first time you posted it;


White vinegar for two-part epoxy clean up is a green alternative becoming popular. Perhaps it might be useful as a degreaser/cleaner for rebedding.

I 'discovered' it about a month later, after much misery.

[ebb]

g'mornin Graig,
Butyl doesn't adhese too good. It is a rubber bedding material classed as a sealant. It's major contribution to the caulking wars is that it remains flexible, which is where waterproofing comes in. The 'sheet' stuff or sticky tapes you get from auto stores are recomended by New Found Metals, eg, for mounting the inner parts of their ports. The stuff is black so they run a cosmetic bead of something white around the squeezeout areas (Sikaflex 291). S291 is a fast set polyurethane.

I think it is agreed that polyurethanes and even polysulfides loose flexibility over time from UV and boat lotions. So here is where your super adhesive gets leaky. I don't know that I would use tube butyl (comes in colors and white) to bed rails on the cabin. I might try the tapes if they came in white, because you want a 'caulk line' On the rails I wouldn't want to squeeze out any caulk or adhesive I put there.

Might try the approved stanchion base method on the rails which is to spread an even thick layer (GOOD LUCK!) of caulk, mount in place and then semi-cinch the fastenings so that everything is even and positiuoned, let it harden to some degree (some will say partially - others will say all the way) then drive the screrws home, hopefully pulling the rails down so that the caulking bulges. (Sheet or sticky gasket material would be SO much easier.) You will have done some carefull blue taping. Last resort would be to cut the bulge off when you leave the tape on too long. Could look real smart!

If you decide to use tube butyl to mount the rails because of its reputation to always flex, here is a trick I just read about. That is to use O-rings around the fastening holes to avoid squeezing all the sealant out. For that matter, if I had some of the tape which is much more firm than butyl out of the tube, might try doughnuts of that around the screw holes. And finish up with tube butyl or polysulfide.

Might go with 4200 - but polysulfide has a rep for lasting longer exposed, and renewing is 100 times easier.

There are issues mounting the hand rails to the cabin. My guess is that witout elaborate oversized drilling and filling the cabin/liner the rails will always want to move. Injecting epoxygel inside the cabin/liner can't be taken lightly, as that can be even more permanent than 5200! The liner is dimpled and distorted by the screws so you have to decide what level of restoration you want.

For a quick fix I would use polysulfide.
I always think in terms of having to take things apart later, curse of the maintenance man. I think dissimilar materials should be bedded, but that's just me - somebody else wants to glue them together, that's ok too! But I'ld have to be starving to take the job of fixing the leak that is bound to show up.

NFM recommends using a metal spatula heated with a hot air gun to soften 5200 when you're trying to remove it! :D


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Butyl - which is so cheap - might also be considered to bed the coamings. It would be great if an inexpensive material could be useful on the boat. Cleanup is with not so bloody lethal mineral spirits. Hope someone trys it here and reports. :cool:

[Tony G]

Okay-now I'm in trouble...I thought I had scraped all of the silicone off of the cabin last year sometime. Wrong. I only got three of the four ports done. However, I did just jump in with the RO sander the other morning and discovered that shiney $#&*! in between some areas of freshly uncovered primer.

So now that I've ground it in (complete BONEHEAD manuver) what do I do to remove it? Anybody? I'm starting a search tonight to find as much info as I can before I do anything else stupid. :(

Any help is greatly appreciated.

[c_amos]

Tony,

I am quoting your post from the 'silicone again' thread, here because I think Ebb's post answers your question. Read his advise for testing the surface with epoxy, I think that will work.




Okay-now I'm in trouble...I thought I had scraped all of the silicone off of the cabin last year sometime. Wrong. I only got three of the four ports done. However, I did just jump in with the RO sander the other morning and discovered that shiney $#&*! in between some areas of freshly uncovered primer.

So now that I've ground it in (complete BONEHEAD manuver) what do I do to remove it? Anybody? I'm starting a search tonight to find as much info as I can before I do anything else stupid. http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/images/smilies/frown.gif

Any help is greatly appreciated.




C'amos, G'day,
Think to add, thanks to your banner headline/thread, something you know, but others might not.
That is,
Do not use any solvent (or heat) in the attempt to prep the surface of the evil silicone violated surface. Solvents are drivers, they will end up pushing the oily residue deeper into the porus gelcoat. Mechanical scraping, hand scuffing with nylon pad without heat buildup is the only way. And the caveat to this is the grit of sanding sheets can make deeper grooves into which the silicone oil is forced. What they say.

The oily stain produced by silicone is a general observation by workers. Haven't seen any micro photos of this phenomenon. Ditto sanding surface grooves with silicone deposits. Sometimes this kind of 'knowledge' gets passed from one author to another like rumors. Like it sounds right. It might not be as bad as you've been led to think. And you may have done some of this we're not supposed to do. I have. Therefor test the de-evil-siliconed surface with a daub of good quality 2-part epoxy. Let it set. See if you can lift it off with a metal spatula.

If you can, then more scraping (shaving) is necessary. You find hand scrapers with carbide blades, including shaped ones, in independant hardware stores. Sandvic has nice ones for detail, and just got a two inch wide one from Rockler but haven't tried it yet on glass, which is the test.

But if you don't want to mess with the gelcoat. it is possible to have a solution with a mental shift! Instead of attempting to create a surface that adhesive will stick to........ just consider it a bearing surface requiring a gasket. The wood on an A/C shouldn't be glued on, metal fittings neither. They are bedded with the main purpose to keep water out of the thru fastenings. Deadlights would be better served if they compressed a gasket. So, in theory, no prep is necessary at all!

White vinegar for two-part epoxy clean up is a green alternative becoming popular. Perhaps it might be useful as a degreaser/cleaner for rebedding. It is easier to use than Simple Green detergent in the work place.

[Robert Lemasters]

on my Commander I used a thick weather stripping material that has a sticky side between the coamings and side decks after replacing the old screws with new larger ones.
The strip provides a great water seal, is flexable and is UV and weather proof. There is an automotive stripping for trucks and stripping for homes either will do well; although, thicker automotive may in the long run be a little better. :cool:

[CapnK]

I'm with Craig and Robert -

Been digging scraping and cursing silicone-weilding DPO's during the whole refurb of Katie Marie's brightwork. It's on the glass, and worse, even forced into the wood grain of the coamings and parts - which makes getting a good finish with varnish damned near impossible. Haven't yet primed and painted the glass in those areas - I guess I'll be finding out if I got enough of that removed when I start that phase (varnish is going on the wood right now).

Found a bad bit of core, forward port cockpit seat, where the PO had bolted a race car chair in place (he needed it for the stability it provided). That area's drying right now (if the rain will hold off), and will need fixing. At least there was no silicone there. :)

I had thought about using weatherstripping in place of a sealant (I like LifeCaulk), and had forgotten the idea. Thanks Robert for reminding me, as well as confirming its usefullness. :)

[c_amos]

FWIW,

Here is some more rant on the subject. I realized I had not mentioned my 'pull test' when I was messing with this so I wanted to include it here.

I posted this on the cruisers forum, I realize I had not posted all of this in this thread so here it is. yes, before you say it I know I am somthing of a silicone bigot... :D


.....it was my rant on silicone on the other thread... I am teased about being a bit over expressive on the subject. It is the result of some personal suffering based on silicone and DPO's...

Silicone is an inexpensive sealant that works well as a compression gasket (as has been mentioned in this thread already). I Like silicone for mechanical gaskets, where metal on metal (or metal on plastic) sealing where slightly (very slight) imperfections in surfaces may cause leaks. Something like waterpump (with care not to allow any globs to fall into the cooling stream for fear of causing clogs).

I am sure that the port mfg cited likes silicone, as it does not harm the ports, and allows some flex between the metal port frame, and plastic (plexi) or glass ports.

Having said that, I believe that there ought to be a law banning silicone on docks, in marina's or anywhere within 10 miles of any boat that is not designed to be scrapped before it is 10 years old....

.... Ok, maybe a LITTLE bit harsh... but just a little. :D

Why>?

Silicone oil (present in silicone caulk) is made up of VERY small molecules. It bleeds from the caulk into any porous or semiprous medium. While the silicone comes off easily, the oil remains.

Silicone is impervious to water, alcohol, acetone, or any petroleum-based solvent. There are some 'release agents' marketed for silicone, they are expensive and only work to remove the silicone caulk, not the oil. There are 'silicone solvents' marketed, they can wash silicone off the surface but not out of the underlying material (in my experience).

They are also pricey, so you are not going to want to use any real quantity of them.

Surfaces that have had contact with silicone not only will not hold paint, they do not prime well (primer does not bond) nor will epoxy bond to these surfaces.

Auto painters will tell you that silicone wax makes their job difficult. The silicone causes 'fish eye' which they can add an additive that increases the surface tension of the paint, but can promote chipping. THe problems with auto paint are not as serious since sanding can remove the paint which is where the silicone is carried.

Fiberglass, and wood 'wick' silicone oil deep below the surface. Sanding does not remove the oil, and can actually make the problem worse by spreading it around.

In my experience, I have painted, and had the paint lift. I then sanded and washed repeatedly with different products... to no avail.

I even went so far as to conduct 'pull tests' where I epoxied a block of scrap wood to the fiberglass I had tried to clean and prepare..... I was able to knock the block of wood off the epoxied (west, unthickened) surface with a tap from a screw driver handle..... :eek:

After several attempts to address these problems I took to using a sharp chisel to carve out the top 3/16 or so of the contaminated glass, and built up new glass to cover it...... much more work then it should have been. >:(

Admittedly I am a bit anal about some things, but watching paint chip off of a newly painted surface can really ruin your day. Even taking such extreme steps, I found an area the other day where I did not get it all.. and there is a small crack in the paint where it failed to bond (like you get if you paint over the waxy blush west leaves.)

Everyone does what they think is best for their own boat. I won't even use silicone on the window frames, as I might want to repaint the fiberglass that surrounds it. My hull was laid in 1964, and she is a 'good old boat', maybe that is why I think about the maintenance I do with a longer range view. I plan to keep her for some time, and want whatever I do to her to be good work, or at least something that leaves the boat better then I found it.

OBTW, I think it was last year Good Old Boat did an article on caulks and sealants and they only recommended silicone for windows, and cautioned against getting it on fiberglass and wood…. so it is not just me. ;)

[ebb]

well said Craig!
Enjoyed yer Wrap on the subject.

BoatLife markets one of the strangest marriages of synthetic rubbers imaginable: a combination of silicone and polyurethane. Might be called LifeSeal or something.
Of course none of the tipsters in the marine media have tested this stuff for us. Does it bleed out oil? What silicone nasties have crossed over into this new goop which is supposed to be ok to use to bed in plastic windows. Partly polyurethane, can your work still be taken apart again for repair or maintenance?

Anybody have long term experience with this stuff?

A true synergistic product might be talked about, one that has the best of each and none of the bad, but I don't really hear about it. It would have to do well in the sun, and last longer than a bad memory to become popular.
Maybe it has too much to overcome. Both silicone AND polyurethane tube rubber are real trouble on the exterior of a boat.:(
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
5200
When you read boat design/woodworking forums (www.woodcentral.com) you'll find ofcourse that silicone is not mentioned - but 5200 and other glues stir up a lot of discussion. At issue is what sticks to what (SINCE NOTHING STICKS TO SILICONE NOT EVEN SILICONE - THAT PUTS IT ENTIRELY OUT OF THE PICTURE.)

And is it repairable.
Repairability of boatwork should I think be
the first consideration.


5200 sticks like a SOB (like SOB silicone) when and where you don't want it to. It looses its flex, doesn't weather particularly well, fuel destroys it, and fails as a caulk if not put together under pressure - ie it'll crack after awhile along a caulk line. Will work with mechanical fastenings. Is generally conceded that it has half the life of polysulfide. Manufactures say 10years for p.urethane, 20years for p.sulfide. But like EPA new car gas mileages, you have to divide that but 2 or 3 to get a real number. imho

[ebb]

Silicone keeps cropping up. This is a great thread to bone up on the subject - look at at craig's post here (c.amos)

One the great miscarriages of justice is that silicone is still allowed to be used on fiberglass boats. (Talking 'bout corporation ethics) But silicone removal is a problem in all spheres. It looks like the makers of the material are also coming up with the removers - which seems logical enough. I've just come off reading some DIY forums and there are folks out there who are criminally stupid. So watch it if you are trying to find information on how to clean the cabinsides where you are rebedding OR where your new windows are going.

Remove excresil by cutting it off (nope, this is not easy either) and then use a sharp pull-type scraper. Don't abrade the surface yet with sand paper. The grit will create tiny valleys where you have driven the silicon oil. Don't use any solvent like acetone. Solvents drive the oil residue into the frp laminate. Don't use a torch or heat gun on it - for the same reason. This is the last thing you want to happen.

There are silicone digesters and waterborne strippers appearing on the market. Some sound very aggressive. You might find these at an autopainting supply store. These strippers/paint preps are formulated for the trade - they may be too much for a more porus surface like fiberglass. This is our problem. I figure I can mechanically remove the rubber by cussing and scraping. But to remove the oil so that the next generation of goop will stick properly we need one that will not just drive the oil or attack the gel coat and polyester or other plastics used around the boat.

After you've successfully gotten the oil out of the gel coat then sanding prep can proceed.

Here's a silicone remover that is said to be safe on plastics and fiberglass. I have NOT used this stuff YET nor have I read any knowledgable forum-type comments on its use:

DOW CORNING OS-2 SILICONE REMOVER.
You can get a bottle from McMaster Carr for $10.23 - 10oz aerosol. (8460T3)
I have ordered some. I'll wipe the area down where silicone probably was and dab some epoxy gel on some spots where the new window gasket is going and see if it bonds. If the epoxy chips off, I'll still have a BIG problema.

Said to be an aqueous solution - said to be relatively benign is far as skin and VOCs goes. Like I say, there is no literature I can find on its practical use. Said to remove silicone oil and grease. Whether it will deep clean gelcoat fiberglass ....that is something
somebody will hopefully be kind enough to report back here to us.:cool:

Wist Marine sells polyurethanes and they have a 'debonder' for some, might not work on polyethers. They sell no remover for the polysulfides.
They also sell a couple brands of silly con but offer no deoiler for them. Their Wist Advisor doesn't admit to this very real oil problem which is obviously endemic and has been around for many Catalogs. And must be the cause of untold failures and frustration at repairing leaks.
'If we don't have it you don't need it.':(

[ebb]

"Polymers and Silicones are a bodyshop's worst nightmare."

They use a 'biodegradable, environmentally safe, non-toxic' prep wash and detergent called

POLYCRACKER

Maybe auto supply, certainly auto paint store. Think it comes in iexpensive quarts. Not being a solvent, maybe it can be used with impunity on your vessel, bro.

[ebb]

FYI
Micro Care Corp 'VeriClean'

Electronics grade flammable methyl siloxane (VMS) solvent.
Removes rosins, fluxes, organic residue, ionic deposits, light grease, fingerprints. (Anybody assembling their Ham Radio kit?)
"Silicones are found in many lubricants, adhesives, conformal coatings - VeriClean removes them all...particularly effective when the coating was fully cured.
"Cleans up silicone residues from other manufacturing processes....100% votilile, cleans without need for rinsing."

"Safe on all common components, gaskets, elastomers, insulators, cables, connectors...can be used on plastics, metal, paint, glass, fiberglass....skin contact. Low odor." Can you really take a bath in it?
Datasheet avoids mention of breathing it - eyes.
Produced from quartz. (How they do that? Is it ok to ask how methyl siloxane is extracted from quartz? THOSE processes are not on the label or data sheet.)
"Degrades quickly in the atmosphere (less than 3 weeks)." THREE WEEKS!!!:eek:

"Ozone safe, including propellant - very low GWP (Global Warming Potential.)" Dow Corning. $15 aerosol, ground shipping ok.
Found it at HMC Electronics
www.hmcelectronics.com

Wouldn't surprise me at all if the stuff from McMasterCarr and this stuff is exactly the same stuff packaged in a different can, more expensive. Personally, in my opinion, Dow can't make a safe product. Not in their nature.

[ebb]

nope haven't tried it.

DSR-5, seems to be mostly aliphatic hydrocarbons and special wetting agents. They call it an "un-bonder"

You work it in where you want to remove CURED SILICONE AND 5200.
Said to be "safer than most solvents regarding skin contact and material." Non-corrisive. Non HAZ MAT.

Safe on metals, aluminum, glass, wood, cabinets, fiberglass, gelcoat, acrylic, polycarbonates, carpets ,vinyl flooring and fabrics, varnished, urethaned or painted surfaces, formica.

Removes other adhesives, contact cement, tape residue, stickers, road tar, chewing gum, enamel spray paint.

Whether it gets the oil out of the gelcoat, probably not. But maybe once you've gotten all the solid rubber away, find a solvent for silicone oil. Research, research!

[c_amos]

....find a solvent for silicone oil. Research, research!

There in lies the rub.

I am afraid that is the 'holy grail' of the sily-cone removal problem. There are lots of de-bonders out there, but NOTHIN that seems to be a real solvent.

What I understand though is that the only real solvent for silicone is silicone.... :confused:

[ebb]

Stuff we need may turn out to be a super detergent, or a super emulsifier*, or something ghastly that denatures the soaked in (organic) oil. No solvent seems to melt the stuff. Can't be any kind of a coating or primer we now have, that's the rub.

On those cockpit sidedecks I ended up removing the gelcoat!!!!!
The problem is we are a shrinking niche market for a silicone oil remover.

Wonder if butyl makes a good sticky seal on contaminated gelcoat. In theory we wouldn't usually need an adhesive bond for watertight fasteners......
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
* Polygone is a silicone emulsifier (digestor) used in the aircraft industry. So strong you don't use it on copper, aluminum, galvanized or plastics. They have a formula that even breaks down polysulfide.
On a "finishers" site where a thread is discussing prep and how to clean off silicone, one guy is saying that silicone contamination is in parts per billion - even on stainless steel you can not remove all of it - and in parts per billion, the molecules left on stainless will still screw up the coating you want to put on.:eek:

In terms of contaminaion we can place Silicone on the same HALF LIFE scale as Plutonium 239 - 24,000 years!

[c_amos]

....I ended up removing the gelcoat!!!!!
The problem is we are a shrinking niche market for a silicone oil remover....



As I have complained about since I did it, I removed the gelcoat and even chiseled out some of the underlying fiberglass.... and I still have some localized paint failures where I did not get all of the dreaded stuff. :mad:

I have a couple places on the sidedecks where the jib track was bedded with silicone that were stripped, over drilled, filled and double primed... and they have failed. I really, truly, passionately hate silicone.


Wonder if butyl makes a good sticky seal on contaminated gelcoat. In theory we wouldn't usually need an adhesive bond for watertight fasteners......

Yes, I hope so. I would think it would work well, since you are putting it in compression and not relying on adhesion to keep it in place.

[Hull376]

Lots of opinions in this thread. How bout any "results?" I've got to re-bed my dead lights which were last bedded with sillycone. A local RV supply store has sticky butyl rubber tape (1"x3/16"x20ft) on sale. And it is white. So any experience from using this tape on deadlights? I want to avoid using anything out of a tube. The last time I did the job single handed, things slipped and slid around so much before the screws on the frames could be tightened that most of the tube contents were on my body. I think I still have those micro molecules of sillycone oil permanently infused into all 5-7 layers of my skin. Maybe also why I can't seem to hold on to a golf club anymore. But I've noticed that paint clean-up on my hands is very fast. If no experience with tape butyl since these posts, then I guess I'll be a sticky butyl rubber tape guinea pig. :D

[mbd]

Kent,

No first-hand experience, but I am looking forward to trying it out when I rebed my stanchions.

There is a great website with lots of projects and excellent pics: Compass Marine Project Articles (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/boat_projects)

He uses butyl tape to bed some new portlights here: Installing New Found Metals Stainless Portlights (http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/nfm_port_lights&page=1)

[ebb]

We certainly done a bunch of rantin-n-aravin about silicone here.
It has its place in the engine room.
There is a hybrid by BoatLife called LifeSeal which by other manufacturers is well thought of. It's not new, been around for 20 years. LifeSeal is a silicone/urethane mix. Supposed to have the best of each and none of the bad.

I've used it on the boat, but it is untested. Its ability to stay attached to surfaces and, most of all, to stay flexible for 20 years in the tropics I have yet to witness.
I check the forums every now and again but most can't yet make the distinction between LifeSeal hybrid and BoatLife LifeCaulk polysulfide. It is Boat Life's fault in keeping the confusion going.
Professionals use Bostick products who have customed the hybrid for specific uses. Like one hybrid for caulking teak and synthetic decks and another that resists squeezeout for bedding stanchion bases and portlights.
[Adding to the confusion is exampled by BoatLife selling a 'marine quality silicone sealant' under their own label. Doubt there are cautions about its use around a boat on the tube. I think this irresponsible. And is a major reason I steer away from their products.]
Would think that Sika and 3M have their versions.

So there is a 'silicone' product that could be used if you want to pay for it.

Imco most of our aps can't really use a wet caulk successfully. Bostick's hybrid silthane for mounting stuff has body built into it, forget the term they use. LifeSeal has only the one tube, I believe. If you don't have a thick hard-to-squeeze goop there's no gasket quality. If you got metal to fiberglass you going to leak even tho you put $5 of rubber there.


SO, butyl IS THE WAY TO GO.
If you use butyl tape you don't have a mess.
If you have a difficult surface you can augment with tube butyl. IT's very sticky, so I believe you can get as good a seal as with the adhesives: polysulfide and polyurethane. You are just not gluing your fitting in forever.
And maybe having it leak anyway.
You have to learn how to use butyl. If you have something like a portlight that always requires rebedding then use butyl bedding not adhesive. Most cruisers use butyl I believe for portlight frames. Haven't heard any grousing about it - but then most forums are not set up for follow-through on a subject.

Butyl will always stay soft (pliable) and sticky. Polysulfide can get hard and start cracking in a couple years, depends where you are located.
I don't doubt that butyl can give up the ghost but it's a piece of cake to take the fitting or whatever apart and rebed it. You know it's something you can do, not something you want to avoid.

That's my take on Butyl. The tape and tube are inexpensive. I'll bet their storage life is 10 times longer than tube polysulfide. Means we can have it in the bosun's locker, always available.


I have a Marelon seacock that's going in on 1/8" b.tape. I'll use tube b. on the thruhull flange and in the bolt holes. Underwater, I know, but if it leaks I can redo it OR clean it off with Stoddard solvent:) and zapp it with polysulfide.

I'll have lexan windows bolted on over butyl tape. It bends nicely around curves. I can see the method (simplified) as stick on the tape, locate the fastening holes, put the fixture in place, poke the fasteners thru with a bit of wet butyl. With a seethru material like lexan dry spots will be noticed. I'm thinking that a dry surface could be primed by pre-smearing wet butyl on it to help get 100% contact? That's an idea for now.

[Hull376]

Mike,

Thanks for the tips on the site. I guess it doesn't take a lot of work to clean up or re-do a butyl tape installation if it doesn't work out. Mineral spirits and its gone, looks like to me. I'll let you know if I do it, and how it turns out.

And ebb, you comments are very much appreciated. Your rational is sound. I'll give it a go.

[mbd]

Yes, butyl from the tube is quite messy - but effective! No deadlight leaks to date...

[mbd]

I'll have lexan windows bolted on over butyl tape. It bends nicely around curves.
...but what about those beautiful powder coated frames of yours??

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=1463&stc=1&d=1090552067

[ebb]

Mike, glued to the boat like that I don't see how you communicate with your pc.? They bring you food, right?

I'm slabbing on the lexan (doesn't sound very elegant) so the beautyful frames (I give them a 90% grade) won't be used.
That's the plan.

BUT just in case, I feel I have to hold on to them for a little while longer because an albergeze aesthetic embarrassment storm might hit me.
Those aluminum frames were altered before powder coating to take thrubolts (machine screws), so they have holes in them!!!!


[DANG! just took a look using your blueline. Haven't seen those in a long time, they're covered and stored in the garage shop. It looks like NOT ENOUGH HOLES, top and bottom should have two more fastners each! Might work with what they have because the cabin side is mildly curved and the frames are flat - even after 40 years attached to the boat!!!!]

[mbd]

Mike, glued to the boat like that I don't see how you communicate with your pc.? They bring you food, right?
I'm on the inside. That is my friend and sailing buddy who is glued to the portlights - and yes, I feed him every now and then. :D

[ebb]

Polyether is a 'next generation' silyl terminated urethane.
I am unable to find any web discussion on just what the difference is between silicon-urethane caulk viz LifeSeal and certain Bostik products
- and the newer polyether.
Compared to death grip adhesives like 5200 and Sikaflex 291, there are no free isocyanate molecules to outgas.
The claim is better adhesion to non porous surfaces, greater resistance to UV and weather.
If you absolutely must BOND polycarbonate windows to the cabin side or frames, this is the stuff to use when you never want to take it apart again.

I've used the bathroom sized tube of WM's polyether. And the gun tube. It has the quality of silicone in that it goes on glossy and makes a silicone-like rubbery seal. But it is easier to tool, much easier than polysulfide, or polyurethane tube sealants.

I have read that it bonds better to surfaces than LifeSeal. But this may be hearsay.
I have also read that it cannot be used under water. Like plain silicone can't.
Polyether does not outgas. You see it marketed for use around food.
On the other hand LifeSeal can be used underwater and on polycarbonate.
[check out ChemLink M-1 (it's a polyether) Structural Adhesive Sealant. Read the Technical Data Sheet at www.bestmaterials.com (Copperstate). Good for underwater - $5.95 / 10.1oz gun tube.]



Practical Sailer (August 2010)
tested ("Jack Tar's New Goop") some of the caulks/sealants available from the West Marine catalog. They tested only some that are available from the catalog. There is a 100% chance you won't find what you need at one of their stores. Call first.
One polyether is a toothpaste tube of West Marine brand that is packaged to look unmistakably like a child of BoatLife. A black and yellow motif separated with a red band.
BoatLife's LifeSeal (the silicone/polyurethane) is NOT included in this 7 product comparison test by Practical Sailor. A serious omission.
Probably because the West Marine packaging confused them as well.
Naturally you may think the BoatLife look alike was packaged for West Marine by BoatLife that now makes polyether calk. Nope. The stuff is made by StarBrite, your favorite boat wax company.
3M makes a polyether listed in the WMcatalog...
BUT it is not included in the Practical Sailor "test". Why wouldn't a polyether be tested against another manufacturer's polyether? For crying out loud.
It's the POLYETHER that is the real "NEW GOOP". Let's find out all we can about the new marine caulk.

Practical Sailor has a side bar in the article: "Does Marine Matter? Do You Get What You Pay For?" that talks about "bathroom" caulks available from non marine sources. They patronize by talking about latex and acrylic caulks that no subscriber would think of using on their boat, The article says that some home-improvement brands of silicone are still intact after five years in an ongoing test of 23 products. Five years on a Home Depot caulk is something I'd like to know about! Especially if it wasn't a damn silicone.

The polyether you can buy from West Marine online for $13/3oz, $19/10oz. $10 flat charge for shipping.
You can go to a roofing site (like CopperState) and find Novalink and Sonabond polyethers for $5 a 10oz tube. Polyethers are not new polymers, they have been around in the trades for 20 years.
Wouldn't it be nice to know which of these roofing goops would cross over to the boat?

Practical Sailor says that without their guidance in marine sealants you'll be sure to make a mistake and buy "an inadequate caulk that prematurely fails (negating) the value of all the labor in the project."
That said, if PS was on my side, they would test ALL brands and types of caulks.
Telling me my inability to choose and "saving a few dollars on bargain-priced materials is a foolish gamble" IS patronizing, insulting, and suspicious.

The article covers many aspects of caulking. Despite it's idiosyncrasy it's definitely "worth considering."
The PS tests focus on bond strengths, adhesion. There is no mention of butyl or other bedding compounds. Not all adhesive products are tested. Nor is longevity, weathering, addressed. The Sikaflex 291LOT, for instance, is recommended for stanchion bases. This despite polyether's promise for remaining bonded and flexible forever.
Polyurethanes shrink, harden and crack over time as they get older. And PS shows a photo of a pre-teen Sikaflex 291 that will delaminate your deck if you try to remove your stanchions).
The PS article ignores recording for us silicone's evil reputation amongst boaters for contaminating gelcoat surfaces. This omission is absolutely inexcusable.
There is obviously nothing inadequate about truly evil silicone.

Before bedding (not gluing) any wood for any length of time to the boat, do a search on the subject here.
On the hidden surface that is bedded there is imco no better prep than a couple coats of laminating epoxy, first coat thinned a bit with xylene.
I'm convinced the best way to protect exterior varnish is to seal and precoat all surfaces with epoxy. In fact I'm convinced the at least two or three coats will do the filling of pores and allow the first coats of varnish to be layed on without telegraphing surface imperfections into multiple coats of gloss. In other words use epoxy to create an ultra smooth surface, then coat with a UV finish of your choice.



__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
(9/03/10)
Mike, who is at this moment in the throes of divesting himself of SeaGlass
was the last poster on this year old thread.
He will be sorely missed.:(

[ebb]

Got an email from P.S. (5/04/11) because they still think I'm a subscriber.
I may have resubscribed because they DO cover a lot of product I wouldn't know about and a lot of fancy gear I can't afford.

But for Practical Sailor, when it comes to goop there is nothing new under the sun.
"The trick is to choose the right one..." they begin.
But when we get to the bottom of the page we aren't much wiser at all.

On Butyls, for instance, they say they "cure fast" and "stick well". If this were so they'd have to elaborate, but they don't. The tape butyl I use DOES NOT CURE. In fact it works because it doesn't. If you are talking about TUBE butyl and want it for plastic we'd have to know what solvents are in what tube butyl. Don't know that PS can go there. West Marine doesn't have any.
Tape butyl is sticky - but mostly to itself - it does make a good seal under pressure, but not too much pressure,
But the attribrute of butyl IS that it doesn't CURE like silicones, polysulfides, polyurethanes or polyethers. "Cures to a supple rubber." is the last sentence. But in no way does butyl compare with the other rubbers they mention.
.."can be used on polypropylene where polysulfide cannot." [see footnote]

Practical Sailor's favorite marine supplier for tube goop testing is West Marine - who do not carry tube or tape butyl (altho I haven't been there in a long while). Since we are too stoopid to make our own choices outside the marine catalog we should be getting information from our WISDOM SOURCE.
It is obvious that Practical Sailor can't find it either!

In this "Stop That Leak" piece they don't mention that polysulfides attack many plastics - and some plastics attack polyurethanes,. It would be important to warn loyal subscribers just what plastics you can't stop that leak with what tube rubbers. Polyurethanes aren't for stopping leaks anyway - they are for permanent bonds. Both products have industry and testing techies ignoring long term problems with UV in exposed joints.
This may be old stuff. I'm not a testing facility. These rubbers may have been improved for weather exposure. I'm not betting on it.

Practical Sailor keeps flogging Silicone ...."Sticks to almost everthing including glass, electrical insulation, and most metals."
"Don't use with polypropylene...." again that's a new one on me. Something I didn't know.
Can't find it on the net. If true, thanks PS for that knowledge.*
But we boat owners know why we DON'T STOP THAT LEAK WITH SILICONE.
Every boat forum knows this.
As a matter of fact Practical Sailor might have informed themslves as to what their public thinks... if they had done a little internet research instead of continuing their silicone myth. A sickness that comes from reading labels too much.
What the hell, what do I know?
Any movement of a joint with silicone caulking in it breaks the seal and allows water in. I know that.
If you smear silicone into a joint with silicone caulk in it to stop leaking - it won't happen.
Silicone doesn't stick to silicone, nor to the oil left behind in surfaces after you've troubled to carefully remove it.
Do any of the testers at PS do maintenance on their own boats?

They mention 'bedding compounds' avoiding the most famous: Dolfinite, opting for the more poetic Interlux 214. It bugs me because Dolfinite has a long standing rep and recognition as THE bedding compound that the "such as" Interlux product does not. The Dolfinite name is synonyimous with bedding compound - almost generic. Putting Interlux 214 forward is fishy and inappropriate - unless it has comparison tested better than all others - which I'm positive PS has never done.
That's OK, Practical Sailor has a problem with methodology.
They are aware of that. They carefully tell us how they set up their testing. On some products it's good enough.
On others, it's not conclusive, or complete, or correct.
I must be missing something!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________________
*It may be that Practical Sailor is trying to warn us off using silicone as a sealant for polypropylene because it is a "low surface energy" plastic.
Polyethylene is also a hard wax-like plastic. These plastics don't think epoxy is a glue.
And they may think likewise about some synthetic rubbers.
I would scuff non-conforming plastic surfaces and use tape butyl.
But you'll have to leave the fold and find it without Practical Sailort's guidance at a non-marine RV supplier.

If you insist on using silicone use NON-CORROSIVE silicone. It should say something like MANC or NC. Or neutral cure.

[c_amos]

Pure undefiled religion right there brother Ebb!

Keep preaching that! :)

If the owners of boats I never care to own should choose to use silicone to "stop that leak" it would be unfortunate.

For an A/C owner to do so is tragic.

[ebb]

Silicone is truly evil.
But can it be said that a vinyl polymer, POLYISOBUTYLENE is truly good?
It is, afterall, a synthetic rubber compound - with a petroleum ancestry.

Our other choices besides silicone: polyurethane, polysulfide, perhaps polyether -
all OXIDIZE in time and will stiffen and crack.

PRO:
Butyl rubber "under the influence of heat, vibration, oxygen and ultra-violet radianion"
(In one test butyl survived without degrading 9000 hours in a UV booth.*) will not harden, crack, loose adhesion, crack or flow out of a joint.
Essentially remains permanently elastic. Butyl tape is chemically INERT.
It adheres to polycarbonate, acrylic, abs, stainless steel, wood, concrete and nearly anything else on a boat. Haven't tried it with polypropylene or p.ethylene.
It's self amalgamating: butyl tape combines with itself - self healing. It's solvent free. doesn't outgas.
Resists acids, alkali's and salts. Weather and age resistant. Doesn't oxidize. 20 year life, retains its tack.
Stores indefinitely.
As a tape it absorbs vibration and sound. Moisture and water vapor and air doesn't penetrate butyl rubber. Doesn't get mildewed.
Working with the tape is generally a much cleaner experience than tube apps. The material doesn't smear. Squeeze out can be removed easily and cleaned away with mineral spirit or xylene dampened cloth or paper towel.

CON:
Not an adhesive.
Doesn't come in clear.
Petroleum solvents will attack butyl.
Because it is an ever-sticky seam it does get dirity** (maybe there's a clever way to fix this?)

GOOD isn't perfect.:D

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________
*the standard longevity (weathering/UV) test in the industry is placing a product to be tested
in a box with UV mercury bulbs. "20 year life" is a tech spec, not a track record.
If you chew gum, it's probably food grade butyl. [I don't want to know!]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________
**The Surebond SB-140 Skylight & Window Butyl Sealant I have mentioned,
not used yet, but
suggest experimenting with....has all the attributes of the tape version. But has 15 to 30% aliphatic solvent (mineral spirit, paint thinner, white gas, are considered aliphatic or 'weak' solvents.) in the mix - with 1% toluene. We assume, given the product description, that it's OK to use with chemically sensitive plastics like acrylic and polycarbonate.
ALWAYS stays sticky - but skins over. This minimizes dirt but an exposed seam can attract it. Need confirmation.
www.bestmaterials.com
[Just looked at the open tube of Bostik Chem-Calk 300 on the boat. Must have got it locally. have a globby screw stuck in the applicator. When a little is needed,, pull the screw and squeeze. It gets more difficult, and the caulk gets thicker, but it's still usefull after 6 months - or has it been a year??? Label says the contents is polyisobutylene/isobutylene/isoprene copolymer with calcium carbonate filler. Mineral spirits is the ONLY solvent listed.]

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________
Vendor quote: "SB-140....withstands extreme outdoor environments with very long life. Usefull for sealing difficult surfaces and joints. SUPERB ADHESION TO DIFFICULT MATERIALS INCLUDING SILICONE RUBBER AND STAINLESS STEEL....." Best Materials, 10.3oz Tube $4.25
Let's hope West Marine never smartens up.