hulldeck joint/and a story

[walberts]

In mid-October, was sailing on the Chesapeake With John Griffiths (who owns and is restoring Ariel #1) in rougher than usual conditions: Small craft advisories, 20-25 steady, gusting 30-35 . Double reefed. The boat handled it well, but when I looked below, there was water on the cabin sole. No water on the bulkheads over the bunk area, but I think it came in closer to the area where the winch pads are. Then flowed down and into the bilge.

I suspect the hull deck joint was working under the load and I want to seal it. Can I remove the metal cap rail that covers the joint without compromising the whole joint? In other words, does the cap play any structural role or is it just a cap.

On a completely unrelated note: An interesting thing happened on this trip. We were out in the Elk River which leads to the head of the Bay. It was rougher than I've ever seen it (since 1950) and we saw what looked like a sailboat in distress. Jib flogging and wrapped around the headstay, mainsail streaming to windward and a man standing on the transom. The wind was blowing the tops off the waves.

We went to see if he needed help and then we saw that he was trailing a hard tender and a girl was clilmbing into it from the stern. She hunkered down in the bow and then we saw another girl climbing aboard. We hove to and asked if he needed help. "Just stand by." Was the answer. We stood by and watched as he hauled in the dinghy and one by one managed to get the two teenaged girls aboard his boat. They were looking worriedly off into the area behind the boat and so did I, expecting to see another kid struggling in the waves. Nobody.

I thought, "If there is another one out there, she's gone." Then I called to the rescuer. "Is there another one?" He yelled back over the wind, "No ... They're looking for their canoe!!"

Imagine that! Wherever their canoe was, it was beneath the waves. Lucky that their samaritan happened by. When we left, he was wrapping them up in blankets and trying to deal with his sails. I forget the name of his boat, but I remember its hailing port ... Galesville MD.!!

We made it to our anchorage (aptly called "Still Pond") several hours later and anchored just as a thunderstorm with 45 knot winds and hail struck.

What a day! We had beef stew and a scotch and slept very soundly.

[c_amos]

I am right there with you.

Having spent 10 boat bucks at WM last weekend I read for 6 hours last night of hull to deck repairs and refinishing (as well as varnish work).

It would be an injustice for me to paraphrase, so I recommend you
click the search.

Make sure you have a large block of time set aside when you do. There is ALOT writter here about just such a repair.

Good luck!

[ebb]

ARIEL NUMERO UNO! PHOTOS PLEASE!


Great story that, the rescue! One fine skipper!

C'amos is right there is a huge amount on the deck/hull joint. Two figures of speech stand out, tho:
If that joint was 'working' you'ld be down there with the canoe! No way!
And imho that 1/2" half round trim piece plays a de'structrural' role in the joint. You have a hundred or more screws driven right into the seam, rail down you could be getting water in here. And a number of other places. Dead lights, ports, vents, thru hulls and thru decks, cockpit drains and seats, etc.

When it happens again, take a forensic look around down below, you know, like with a flash light look for the sheen of wet. When heeled and bouncing water can take unusual routes to the bilge and sole.

If, eg, you have water on the shelves, it has the whole cabin length to find the drain holes if you have them. Then the settees and the furniture will allow water in and run further along the hull. In 338's case the bottom tabbing on the settees just above the sole was cracked. A good thing because water couldn't stay in the enclosed space.

The Search will find our posts but the threads sometimes don't lead to a nice textbook cascade of fixes. Don't go silent on us!

And Ariel #1 is very, VERY intriquing, I, for one, would find any photos of the first Ariel extremely gratifying, Please.:D

[walberts]

I think the leak is in the hull/deck joint. I hoped it was coming in through some other means, but checked them out and I keep coming back to the joint. If I understand you, it won't cause the deck to pop off if I remove the joint cap. Right? I figured that it wouldn't, but I didn't want to be surprised. Call me cautious and uninformed.

If I can do that, it seems like it would be not too big a deal to seal the joint with 5200 and then re-install the joint cap.

As far as Ariel #1 is concerned, she is down on the Sassafras River in MD. In John Griffith's barn. He is on the final stages of restoring her and she should be back in business this Spring. I will get some pictures from him and see if I can handle the technology necessary to post them on the site.

He has taken pictures throughout the restoration, and it has been a really big job. As he said, "They made a lot of mistakes on the prototypes and then remedied them as time went on." John is a retired boat surveyor and a master boat-builder from England. Old school. He's made a real jewel out of hull #1.

[Bill]

The hull to deck joint has always been a maintenance pain. Chapter 8, Section E of the manual discusses the joint and its recurring need to be recaulked. It also describes a method for permanently sealing the joint.

[commanderpete]

Good story and I can't wait to see # 1.

In order for water to get inside, there would have to be a crack completely through the inner overlapping layers of fiberglass. Such a crack should be visible from the interior. I'm a little doubtful the water is coming from there.

On a particularly rough day I'll get quite a bit of water below. It comes in under and around the companionway hatch.

Here's a picture of Tim's Triton Daysailor, which has the same type of joint.

[ebb]

I can hardly wait to see!

I hope he will be encouraged to share some photos of what he has done with us! A surveyor, huh? THAT says a lot about the Ariel! And the surveyor!



The rub rail has probably been off a couple of times to plug the holes. 338 had blobs of silicone goop and smears. Another telltale were size larger screws and (always) slightly out of sinc extra holes.

If the s.s. is in good shape and worth saving then a restoration move is in order. Nothing will stick to where silicone has gone befor. I really hope you don't find any under the rail. I used a Dremel tool with tiny carbide abrasive wheels to clean the seam. Watch it, you can cut thru tghe tabbing inside. When you start, check from the inside that you are not cutting thru! On 338, paint had been sprayed up into the cove of the toerail, so adding more frp inside is extreme. Silicone has to be mechanically removed.

I think C'pete did a renewal on his Commander and added a layer of glass on the outside. You have to look for that. That is what you are looking at if you find a really bad seam and have to radically grind out bad glass and stuff. Hopefully a 5200 solution is the way to go for you. It has been done. Consider using the adhesive in a careful taped off stripe and then applying the rail dry or with a smear of polysulfide so it can be taken off again. Consider 5200 structural and sulfide bedding compound. If your seam is in really good shape you might go with all sulfide.

The thing is, if you are carefully going to put the rubrail back, you'll be using the same holes. They were never a good place for fasteners. You can't go with a size larger OR a size longer to get more purchase. So, if I was stuck with the same screws in the same holes, I would spend some serious prep time creating a new back for the screws with epoxy, cabosil, and glass powder in an attempt to produce something for the threads to grab. IE filling the seam and holes. That is my opinion. I don't think rubber will hold as good.

A wham bam thankya mam fix would glue the rail back on with 5200 and let the next skipper do restoration. Next time it would probably have to be done because the rail would be destroyed taking it off.

You will notice that nearly the whole length of the molded toerail doesn't follow the curve of the hull. The seam stands furthest out and can therefor be easily changed by a frisky makita. You don't want to change the profile of the joint because the butt joined hull/deck laminates are pretty skinny here.

1/2" s.s rubrail is available at a price, but you almost would have to get a shop to drill and countersink the holes. IE to place holes where the old holes aren't. Nothing wrong with a nice wood rail. Might allow extra frp over the seam. A concave surface on the mating side of the rail could accomadate some additions and make a nice gasket of sulfide over the seam. Seems to me Mr Griffith would be good to ask, too!!!

Oh, and on 338 the seam across the transome was filled and glued pretty well at the factory. The rail had to be prebent to get it on. If it is in good condition, maybe just leave it, leaks here are not getting in to the cabin sole, but that is open to discussion!

[ebb]

Oughta say that C'Petes's photo of the toerail of Tim's other boat only mildly resembles the toerail on 338. Admit I never sawsalled out a section like that!

You have to imagine the butt joining laminates on an Ariel (but then I don't know Every Ariel, do I?) is about 1/8 to 3/16" thick. Looks like 5/16s there on that Triton. 338 didn't have any of that other stuff, that extra U shaped section filling the cove. That cove there is full of garbage.

The factory hull and deck were pasted together with matt over the seam. How much or how many layers unknown - but there wasn't much of a bump. Some went up into the cove, a lot did not. And it was neat, pressed on smooith - I know because not many Ariels have had that cove scraped and sanded out on both sides and the top, all 54', as dear ole 338. Golly, what fun!

But 338 was/is stripped inside, access to the cove reasonable. A fully found boat has to be worked on from the outside. Oh yas, I remember now: Ed glassed the seam on Pathfinder. But I don't know how it was done without fairing most of the topsides! You know the glass tape has to overlap the seam top and bottom. You're doing it for strength, really. The instant you paste cloth/matt onto the hull below the seam onto the curves of the hull proper (the toerail is ok) you got a can or two of epoxy fairing to do! By golly, even more fun!

.................................................. .................................................. ....
Capt Walberts:
Ready to see photos of #1. I hope you get them to work for us on the gallery page. My own surveyor experience when I bought Sun Quest #338 led me to think that surveyors only made lists of obsolete equipment and counted lifevests. Did get copys of some nice photos, for a goodly fee.

To get a retired professional surveyor's view (hopefully) of his own restoration from the beginning and of the very first Ariel Pearson made.... is unprecedented. Almost unbelievable.
Well, I hope we get some of it!

These little boats got the P O W E R ! :)

[commanderpete]

As far as I can tell, Pearson laid the deck section on top of the hull section. Little, if anything, was used to join the hull to the deck where they meet together. They were pretty much just butted on top of eachother.

However, on the inside, multiple layers of fiberglass were used to join the inside of the hull to the underside of the deck. This is what holds the boat together.

I don't see how water can get inside the boat unless that fiberglass has been pierced all the way through by a screw or whatever.

When you remove the metal rubrail, you can fill any seam where the hull and deck were butted together (after cleaning out any punky glass). Using 5200 or thickened epoxy might add a little structural strength.

I also think the cove on the underside of the metal rubrail should be filled with sealant so water is not trapped there against the hull.

Like ebb said, adding a strip of fiberglass along the seam on the outside wouldn't help much strengthwise. There just wouldn't be enough overlap unless you first ground back the gelcoat well above and below.

I added about 4 layers of overlapping biaxial tape on the inside. I'm not entirely sure why, since I didn't have any problem with the hull/deck joint. Grinding the paint out of the underside of the toerail was no picnic, eh ebb?

[commanderpete]

Here's another one of Tim's Triton pics.

The seam is actually below where he made the cut.

[ebb]

That's not what we A/C's got, I'll swear to that!
No, I think adding a stripe of xmat tape to the outside on the seam Would add a lot of strength AND a lot of fairing - whot I meant.

I suppose someone could add such a tape of epoxy and glass only 2" wide and cover that, without having to fair, with a wood 'rub rail.' Or now that I think of it. a genius could add a wider 'sheer strake' of reinforcement if the bottom edge was kept bristol with a sort of form protecting the hull.

I sure think the hull and deck have to be attached well. The two forms meeting, especially the deck with its channel-like toerail, don't have any place to go. The designer's original engineering with the non-oilcanning laminations, thickness and curves, was evidently correct. A flange on the hull wasn't considered needed.

Nobody's done it so far as I've heard, But the A/Cs could literally be unzipped apart, They would keep their shape while being refitted and then pasted back together. Holy codfish how much easier it would have been with 338!!! Next time.

5200 just might be a good enough 'temporary' leak fix.
Sounds like quality control didn't always check on the laminations over the seam inside. Yet lid and pot have held together all these years with merely a butt kiss.

Have to remove the rubrail to see if there is hole that will let any amount of water in. Agreed it couldn't be that much to show up on the sole. My vote goes to the deadlights. 338's were smeared all over with a disgusting display of silicone snot and goobers. Taking them apart revealed that they were mounted between the cabin molding and the liner, suspended. The liner is rather flexible. The lights depend on a sort of clamping action over the empty space between the cabin amd liner. No way. And numerous smearings prove that frustrated former owners recognized the Source.

Water getting in under pressure via the deadlights could be serious. Silicone is notorious for letting go as well as welding itself indiscriminately. Water gets in thru the seam in the glass and frame or between the frame and cabin. There were definite signs in 338 that water got in between the liner, ran down under the deck and onto the shelves that run along the stringers. That puddle went wherever a former owner placed a forgotten thruhole - After it puddled under the cushions it got to the sole!

yeah, befor you tackle the rubrail maybe it's w :eek: rth another sail on the wild side

[Hull376]

My experience with 376 was that water appeared on the sole whenever we had sailed with the rail in the drink. During restoration, I pulled off the stainless steel rub rail and found that the sealant had failed, and there were some screws that pierced through the hull. These screws were the likely source of the water intrusion. Any, I'll vouch for the effectiveness of using a dremel tool to clean out the seam on the outside of the hull, then refill it with 3M 5200. Voila--- no more water mysteriously showing up on the sole. And as Ebb says, double check the portlights---- Next on the list of suspects is the screws on the cabin top handrails.

[Bill]

In our experience with the fleet here on SF Bay (my own experience included), the hull to deck joint leaks and the problem started appearing back in the late 1960's. It may have become obvious to us since we sail rail down most of the summer. Over the years, all manner of fixes were attempted, each getting better as epoxy & sealant technology progressed. (And yes, the fixed lites will leak, but that is in addition to the hull to deck leak.)

Several local skippers have found good results (as described in the manual) by cleaning out and epoxying the seam, then finishing with 5200 when reinstalling the ss trim/rub rail.

[ebb]

Just wanted to close the loop on the rubrail and anything attached with screws on a fiberglass boat.
When you think of it, if you are attaching something to laminate, you have one shot getting the screw into the hole. If you back the screw out you now have a hole bigger than the screw size. Glass shatters and plastic is brittle. Even a carefully sized predrilled hole for the fastening in fiberglass will not keep the material from disintergrating when the threads are driven in. When you back the screw out you are clearing the hole.

Therefor the rubrail leaks thru the fasteners if it has ever been removed. Care to guess how many screws are doing the holding vs how many are letting water in?

If you carefully refill the holes with epoxy etc, and you're putting the rail back where it originally was, you are right back with the one shot deal. IMCO if you are sure you can get 5200 or 1A DEEP into each hole and let it cure so that when you reattach the rail you get some bite to hold and press the rail tight to the boat you have a better chance at stopping the leaks. You may have to predrill a small hole for the screw in the rubber. Have to feel each fastening, but predrilling a tiny starter might seat the screw without the danger of drilling thru the joint and making another potential leak. My opinion only.

Whether you use the same material to bed the rail on is your call. I don't think glueing the rail on forever with polyurethane rubber will strengthen the hull/deck joint. Polysulfide would be my choice. It weathers better, lasts longer, and allows removal.

Point is, screws are almost the worst fastening you can use on fiberglass.
Hope the rub rail won't have to be removed again for another 40 year.

[c_amos]

In what has begun as a minor re-fit, 'Faith' has now had the hull to deck joint glassed over from the inside across the transom, and inside the lazarette.

I filled the joint with epoxy on the outside.

I actually purchased the 5200 to re-caulk the joint, as per the manual but have discovered that the screws were replaced by larger, longer screws that have gone on through into the cabin.

I am now working forward, the rest of the way around. I will epoxy 1" band of fiberglass, and fill and fair the outside.

Would not be so bad, but have also undertaken the ice box rip out, topside repainting, brightwork refinishing, belowdecks fuel storage, and a myriad of other projects at the same time.

It is hopeless. I can not stop myself... I must seek help.

[Tony G]

We're all the help you need. Well, us and alot of _________. Just remember, you can never really do anyting that can't be repaired. But it all does take time. If I were closer to the seas I probably wouldn't have elected to do everything at one time. Instead, pick away at the list and enjoy some time sailing.

Your seam refurbishment sounds perfect for the bill. Are you going to refasten the stainles rubrail or abandon it?

[Scott Galloway]

I had the same problem with hull deck seam leaks on hull #330. The screws merely hold the rub rail in place and not the hull to the deck. A previous owner removed and replaced the rail with longer fatter screws that penetrated through into the cabin. You could see the tips of the screws sticking through the inside of the hull, and rust streaks running down the inside of the hull in the cabin and cockpit lockers from each protruding screw tip.

I removed the rails, cleaned the hull/deck seam out with hand tools. In some cases the seam was narrow and in some cases wide. A thin plastic cutting knife with sharp hooked blade worked best for getting rid of the combination of original failed caulk and uggggh! (a previous owner's silicon job).

I then cleaned the joint with solvent that was marketed to deal with the silicon, and secondly with acetone. I then filled the screw holes with epoxy...a bit of a mess. There were significant voids between the body of the hull and the cold joint overlapping laminate, so a fair amount of epoxy went down and out of my syringe into the void. I was not endeavoring to fill the joint, but only the screw holes.

Afterwards, I filled the entire seam with 3M 5200 (it remains somewhat flexible, whereas epoxy doesn't). I faired the 5200 level with the outside of the hull. I like working with 5200. It is fairly user friendly, doesn’t sag much, and it cleans up nicely. When the 5200 set up sufficiently, I reattached the rail rub with 3M 4200. 3M. 4200 is messy and a real pain to apply and keep stuck onto the underside of that rail, but is 4200 less adhesive on metal than is 5200, and so I reasoned that I might in the future remove the rub rail without a jack hammer if need be, while leaving the underlying 5200-filled hull/deck seam intact. 4200 sags and drools and gets all over the place, so have some clean-up stuff handy (acetone for instance).

I added new shorter screws set into the (then) epoxy filled holes. There only function was to hold the rail in place till the 4200 set up and then add a little mechanical insurance to 3M’s chemical promise that the rail will stay in place. I did this job in the summer of the year 2002, and thus far have had no hull/deck seam leaks. I sail in the ocean with the rail much of the time.

By the way, another easy place for water to enter are your jib and Genoa tracks and also your chainplate slots, the latter of which, if they have not been dealt with previously, probably have extensive loss of balsa surrounding the plates. A little 9 or a lot of) epoxy to fill the voids where the balsa “used to be” is a great solution to that problem if the plates are first removed, and the slots / plates adequately caulked thereafter. Have new plates made while you are at it. As much as I sail with the rail down, and as much as it rains around here, I believe that chainplate cover plates are a must for leak proofing. When I switched from bronze to stainless steel chainplates in the summer of 2004. Go ahead, I dare you: Try to find someone who wil make you some bronze plates. I had some cover plates made up at the same time by the shop that made my chainplates.

And by-the-by-the-way, a chainplate leak on the port side in the cabinet above the dresser will run down into the trough behind the drawers and through a limber hole and aftward along that same trough under the port settee cushion, and that might make you think you have a leak somewhere else, like the hull/deck seam above the settee, but if the shelf above that settee is dry, as mine was, you probably don’t. Your chainplate slot is just leaking. This happens with the rail down, or in a prolonged rain. I fixed that problem as described above, and since last summer there are no leaks there either. The boat has been perfectly dry rain or shine this winter. Color me happy!

[c_amos]

It is hopeless. I can not stop myself... I must seek help.

As the battle rages on, today I worked on the hull to deck joint again.

It was tough, looking up at my new sails and a beautiful day calling be out to the river. I have shifted my strategy slightly, and now am filling the screw holes and the seam with thickened epoxy (I see the light Ebb, I can not imagine how much fairing compound it would take to get that right).

I am back to the hull to deck joint since I am moving the Genoa tracks to the toe rail and need to have it painted before I mount them.


Are you going to refasten the stainless rubrail or abandon it?

I plan to remount it it is going to be tough to screw back into what will now be a watertight joint though. :rolleyes:

[Tony G]

Fairing that pestky seam would take alot of time and alot of compound. But boy oh boy, look at those hulls that have 'em. Namely, Ebb's and Geoff's. They look great! I really wanted to do that to 113 but we have an incredibly annoying deck overhang of a 1/4" or more on the port quarter. So she gets a big fat rubrail over that seem. I'm thinking that will gracefully hide more than a half gallon of microballoons!

Hey, how about some pictures of your seam work?

[c_amos]

Remembered the camera today,

THe rain makes things a little tough to make out, but here you go.

First the requested picture;


Hey, how about some pictures of your seam work?
This is epoxy thickened with 404, pushed into a cleaned out seam....

Not too exciting

[c_amos]

THis gives a longer view.

So far, I have made it across the transom, and 2/3 of the way up the port side.

I will go to the starboard side next, as I am getting ready to mount the new Genoa tracks on the toe rail.