Tiller Discussions

[commanderpete]

I seem to remember there was a thread here about getting a new tiller which seems to have disappeared.

Anyway, the Manual calls for a tiller 1 3/8 inches wide. I measured my bracket and it is only 1 1/4 inches wide. H & L Marine is going to make me one that size.

My last tiller was a bit too wide and I had to sand it down to get it in there. This season I tried to pry it out of the bracket to refinish it and ended up putting a split in it.

The tiller before that I broke while sailing on a very windy day. Sheered off right at the nub. I learned it is possible to steer with a big screwdriver jammed in there.

Now I'll have a spare tiller for emergencies at least.

Cost of new tiller: $ 39.00 unfinished, $ 52.00 varnished. I seem to get 8-10 years out of a tiller, maybe I'm too hard on them:cool:

[S.Airing]

I bought this tiller off the shelf at West Marine,I like it alot better that the original one

[S.Airing]

I see no one still has any comments on tillers,I found the original tiller to be way to small and it was too low ,a real knee banger,when it broke it was a blessing.There are 61 registered people on this web site and who knows how many guest that dont register ,surely more than 10 or so people have an opinion about their Ariels and Commanders.

[Bill]

The manual has a design for a tiller that curves up very nicely to miss the knees:) Just photo copy it and send to H&L.

[Ed Ekers]

We also replaced a tiller or two on Pathfinder. We use a tiller that was from West Marine. I think it is listed as a J-24 tiller. It sits a little higher and a bit longer than the original. Does require a bit of shaping on the end to fit into the head.

[commanderpete]

Here is my new tiller on the left. The old one is on the right. The upward curve on the new tiller should clear the knees. Also, you wont tend to lift the tiller while steering, which puts stress on the bracket.

[French]

I was just thinking the other day while I tried to survive the near gale force winds that we had here in the Bay area last weekend, that perhaps I should replace the tiller. Mine held through the heavy gusts, but would not have been fun if it snapped! It's age is unknown and I was was doing some major pulling! Thinking on some of the comments I do tend to lift mine as well. I will check out West Marine.

[Bill]

The manual has plans for a tiller in the shape of the one in the last photo above. Goes over the knees while seated and will stay down when using the tiller while standing. H&L (who make just about all the tillers you see in the chandleries - ie., marine hardware stores like West) can make it for you.

[French]

I looked for that last night and could not find it. What page is it on??




Originally posted by Bill
The manual has plans for a tiller in the shape of the one in the last photo above. Goes over the knees while seated and will stay down when using the tiller while standing. H&L (who make just about all the tillers you see in the chandleries - ie., marine hardware stores like West) can make it for you.

[Bill]

Check the appendix's drawing index. The drawings are in alpha order and are at the very end of the manual. (I'd give you a page #, but there is not a copy of the manual here at work.)

[David N. Bruce]

Ok, this shouldn't be too difficult, but I need help getting started. Just bought Fair Wind, Commander Hull #301. Was bringing her to her new home under power (thank God) in light conditions -- following seas and light following winds (really really Thank God). Single-handing, just to make it interesting. Well, long story short, the tiller just came off in my hand -- it had delamination near the tiller head fitting, and was rotten inside. So it just came right off, right at the fitting.

I am pleased and fortunate to report that in the conditions I've described, it is possible, although a bit awkward, to steer a Commander by using the tiller head fitting as, well, a tiller. And I was able to sort of jam bits of the rotten tiller into the head fitting and occasionally get some purchase, but not reliably so. Made it home without injury to self or to Fair Wind.

So now to the question: thoughts and suggestions on the replacement tiller? I am not clever enough to manufacture one myself, and if I could buy one somewhere, I would. In fact: two. A spare would, I think, be a good thing!!

Any help appreciated.

Dave Bruce

[commanderpete]

Here's a thread on replacement tillers. I think it took about 4-6 weeks for them to send me a custom tiller.

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69

The ones they sell at West Marine may need a little modification.

[tcoolidge]

Getting one from H&L would probably be easiest and cheapest. The drawings for the custom tiller that came with my manual were a bit confusing- a big black X and comments like wrong curve do not use, revisions to follow- so, not knowing about H&L, I took some measurements and built a jig and made my own out of epoxied strips of mahogany and ash. It has enough curve to clear my kneecaps and thighs when I'm seated but is low enough that I can straddle it standing without having to worry about risking serious injury or singing soprano. It also rests at a very comfortable height for steering for extended periods and is substantial. Will take a pic and send it if desired. I still have the jig around somewhere so if for some reason H&L doesn't work out let me know and I can either make another or show you how. It's not that hard.

Tom
Furthur #332

[tcoolidge]

Another thought. Regardless of where and how you end up getting a new tiller one thing I've found that is very worth doing when you mount it to the tiller head is to drill your holes, then remove the tiller, and redrill the holes so they are a little oversized and fill them with epoxy/fillers, let them cure then redrill to fit the tiller head bolts. This creates an epoxy sleeve around the bolts that is waterproof so you keep moisture out of the wood and avoid finding yourself with an unattached, rotten ended tiller in the future.

Tom

[David N. Bruce]

Tom & Pete

Thanks very much. I will keep you posted on how this turns out. Fyi, Commanderpete, I did look for old threads on this subject and didn't come up with the one you forwarded, meaning only that I haven't figured out how to work this thing properly yet.

And I am definitely going to go for a tiller and a spare.
dave

[commanderpete]

Good idea on the epoxy fill.

The tiller design in the Manual sits up about this high

[commanderpete]

You can adjust the curve, but it feels pretty comfortable.

[Sprite]

I used a H&L tiller for a Pearson 27. It is longer and it bends
upward a little higher. The one that came with the boat was
in rough shape.




Captain John

[skylark]

While you're replacing the tiller, take a good look at the tiller head fitting. Mine broke on my Commander a week after I was crossed Lake Michigan in a really bad blow and I've had the same thing happen on my Vanguard now. I had new ones made from stainless. There's a drawing of the Vanguard one on www.pearsonvanguard.org in the pdf files section which could be scaled down for the Commander.

[Bill]

I'm not comforable with mixing metals on the rudder shaft assembly. SS and bronze are close, but there will still be a current. Even with all bronze, there have been failures due to "hot" marinas.

[David N. Bruce]

Skylark -

Who did you get to fabricate the tiller head fitting? I was looking at mine last weekend and having the same thought -- be nice to at least carry a spare. Losing that in a blow would be a pretty hard problem to solve.

Incidentally -- and my thanks to all who posted tips on this:
a. I've ordered what I hope will be a decent replacement tiller from H&L; will let everyone know how that turns out.
b. In the meantime, I bought an axe handle (!!) from my local hardware store -- it fit in there like it was made for the slot; drilled the holes, and good to go. So at least I have a workable spare, and something to use until I get the new one.

[ebb]

On the tiller head assembly? Gee, this isn't a generic thing!!!


So far as I know bronze is not going to crystalize out of the water.

My original (I'm assuming this) tiller head which is comprised of two unchromed castings, one fitting over the other, seems to be just as malleable as the day it was made. You can see a lot of 'worrying' in the keyway. And some mangling where DFOs cranked too hard on the nut that squeezes that casting around the shaft where it holds the key.

What Broke ? ? ?

Compared to my Edson replacement the original tiller head is a substantial work of art and well worth fixing IMCO. Would weld it with a MIG and reshape the piece back to original dimensions. Piece of cake.


By the way: and I think it was pointed out here (in Search)
The more the tillerhead is in the closed position (the Down position) the stronger it is going to be because there is more metal to metal bearing surface to turn the rudder. Therefor you want a tiller that swings over the knees when the tiller head is in it's resting position. Doubt you can find an offshelf WM tiller which has the S curve required for this.

Oh, and the other thing about the original tiller head is that the channel for attaching the tiller is not only 1 1/4" wide but only 1 1/4" deep. The spread of the holes thru the channel sides is minimal - it means that the bolts go thru maybe two laminations - assuming you have a laminated rudder. The bolt holes are essentially in line along the top of the tiller laminations - pressure on the tiller, pushing downward especially, is made for a split to happen. Don't think engineers would like this much.

My guess is that the tiller installation leaves a lot wood below the metal channel. While this adds to the unity of the whole lamination, it is argueably a flaw in the design. The fix would be to weld on some bronze strips to the sides to deepen the channel so more wood would bear and redrill the holes for a better spread. It would take a sophisticated shop to do this. They'ld have to have some 1/4" bronze plate sitting around.

A better, easier, fix might be to drill thru the top of the tiller channel and put a backup plate on the bottom that incorporates the two or three bolts. Wouldn't look too bad if you squared the holes and used carriage bolts. Plus you're clamping all the laminations together. Epoxy glue doesn't like exposure and will degrade.

Preparing for a broken tiller, would you use butterfly nuts underneath so that you could more quickly attach the ax handle or maybe the spare tiller???:D

[skylark]

I suppose the dissimilar metals question is a pertinent one, but in 17 years I haven't noticed any problems. I had the new fittings made by someone who worked in a factory I met at the marina here in Milwaukee and don't remember the name, but this is a very easy project for someone with the proper tools and access to materials.

Brazing the existing fitting would be a solution, but there might be other areas after all these years of use that could be suffering from fatigue and I wanted something I could count on. Having the fitting on my Commander break a week after being caught in 20 ft. waves and gale winds made me skeptical of reusing the fitting. The part that broke was opne of the straps that tie the two parts of the fitting together. During this same crossing, friends who were in another Commander traveling in tandem with us broke their tiller itself and were towed in; I now carry a spare tiller with fitting just in case! I probably don't have quite the worry of galvanic action being in fresh water as some of you would in salt water.

[ebb]

The only strap part I see on 338's fitting is, when looking down at it from the top, is the 'hinge' part just behind the inner casting which attaches to the top of the shaft. It has a 5/16" bolt acting as the pin.

The strap part of the tiller holder is 2" long on either side of the part that holds the shaft. These short flat forks measure 1 1/8" X 9/32." The change from channel to strap is curved around the part on the shaft. The straps are thicker than 1/4". The total amount of metal the bolt goes thru is 1 1/2". That's massive!!!

The forces that broke your fitting must have been massive too. Again, I believe you have to have a tiller that when in use leaves the fitting in the closed position, as much as possible. IMCO the tiller head 338 has is Unbreakable. I think that steering while standing with the tiller up is asking too much of the fitting. Any fitting of this type. If anything is loose, like the tiller to the fitting or the shaft bearing, it makes breaking something more possible.

The Edson tillerhead. however, is a cast STRAP affair. It has no top where the wood is attached, the straps are only connected at the hinge area. Any fastenings have to go thru the sides. You would be able, of course, to place the tiller in the straps where you want. But most of the forces would be taken by the hinge bolt. It was the only one found at the time that fit a 1" shaft. (And the keyway is on the forward side of the fitting.) The chromed Edson is a poor cousin to the original, much lighter, about half the weight.

Bronze should be welded, not brazed.

I'm not a metalurgist but I think silicon and manganese bronze high copper alloys can't be leached enough to get crystalized. You know like they bring up cannons and coins from the seafloor in perfectly good condition. However an 'after market' chromed tiller fitting could be brass under the gilding.

[skylark]

I agree that the fitting will be strongest with the tiller in the down position. I had no control how previous owners of both boats sailed their boats, but I am guilty of sailing with the tiller too high. That's another reason why I like having a stainless fitting. As far as welding vs. brazing bronze, both can be done. For a very informative article (about Lotus 7 cars and their construction) see http://7faq.com/owbase/ow.asp?NotesOnWelding. I did not attempt to advocate one method over the other; I know nothing about either one. My stainless fitting is welded, super strong and I'm happy with it. There's been no degradation in it's strength in the 17 years I've owned my boat. However, each to his or her own; there are many ways to rig a boat.

[ebb]

Thanks, Capt skylark, and I apologise for a terse style that often comes out opinionated, lengthy, complicated, even brusque. The old fool thinks it's all in an attempt to gather and share world class knowledge about our world class classic. I often don't suffer myself too gladly, either.

:D

[ebb]

If 338 had a broken tillerhead I'ld be very interested in skylarks 'homemade' stainless steel design.


How about some photos?

17 years is a good eoough test for me!!! In boat years that's almost a classic.


I know I'm a bronze snob. But s.s. can be translated into bronze for the salted water fleet.

I can't imagine what it would cost at Bristol Bronze to have a copy made of 338's (assumed) original. [500 bucks? not including the cost of S & H and the not existant patterns!] There is a bunch of machining and picky handwork that would have to be done that would make the two part casting very expensive. I hope that Bristol will be persuaded one day to have the Ariel tillerhead available (with some IMCO necessary ungrades.)

I, for one, have to see what the welding shop produced for your Commander that has worked so well for all these years.

[commanderpete]

Axe handle for a spare tiller? I love it.

I had a broken tiller fitting on my old Commander, # 199, (pictured below). A crack developed in one of the tangs. I ignored the problem for a year or two as the crack grew longer. One day the tang broke in two. I took the fitting to a specialty welding shop and they welded it back together. Within a few weeks, the crack began to develop again.

From this limited experience, I think that:

a) You should be able to notice a crack in the fitting long before it breaks;

b) After it broke, I could still gently steer the boat, but I wouldn't want to try that in the conditions Skylark described;

c) Welding was an unsatisfactory repair. Maybe a better welding job could have been done, I don't know.

d) I might have had a better result if I had it welded before it completely broke;

e) I recall being a little upset about the cost of the welding job. I think they charged me around $ 65! Obviously, the money would have been better spent on a new fitting, if one were available. If someone wants to clean this one up for use as a mold, just let me know.

Here it is

[commanderpete]

Almost cracked completely through again

[commanderpete]

Cooked that sucker pretty good, huh?

Weld on the bottom tang

[ebb]

Cpete, that's definitely the same design as 338's,
but not the same animal. It looks wasted.

You need to have the golden welding rod awarded you to stick bronze. Welding is melting two pieces of similar metals together. It's tricky to do with bronze, I never succeeded in mastering it properly. In fact I had to take my work to a master to have it done right.

So what tillerhead do you have now?


[Have you analysed what happened to cause the crack?
Bronze is soft alright, but a piece of those dimensions would take some force to bend it. It would have to be bent more than once to get that crack. Being a casting, tho, it may only take One bend.

We have the tiller acting as a lever. So, did the rudder shaft and blade hit refusal (stop hard against something like the hull? Or a rock, Or the Bottom?) - and the tiller was pushed further on? Or was the tiller used violently to attempt to skull the boat?

Maybe the tiller was down in the cockpit and something came along that pushed against the rudder blade, pushed it too far, and something had to give. That something being the strap or ear on the tiller fitting. It certainly Should have been the tiller to get broke, NOT the fitting!

Aside from being more cautious next time, next time always different than the last two last times, what precautions are there to take? Rubber stops, a more sophisticated tillerhead?

If that's the place where the fitting breaks maybe another piece of bronze plate could be welded over this weak point.]

Better to have the tiller break than the fitting!!!

[skylark]

I have some pictures of the replacement SS tiller fitting and one of the drawings for the Vanguard fitting. The Vanguarg fitting is easier to make as the "wings" don't need to be flared out, but a good machinist can do it for you. The first picture is of the side view

[skylark]

The second picture is the top view Picture was too big.
See below for picture that replaces this image>

[skylark]

The third one is the Vanguard drawing

[skylark]

Here's the second one again in a smaller format. Sorry for the large one

[ebb]

Capt skylark,
Great photos. Great photos to work from.

We can assume that your s.s. strap plate tiller holder isn't going to find itself broken, because it can't get bent like the much softer bronze.

If some of us salts are going to insist that a bronze tillerhead is appropriate for a bronze rudder shaft then the tiller holder part has to be improved in such a way that the ears do not break off.

Imagine that the channel (which probably was thought of as an improvement over meer straps) was meant to stabilize the tiller But to stabilize the ears all that is needed is to connect them over the top. Just like the straps. In other words you just continue the channel to the back over the hinge bolt. It would go over the top of the shaft part.

Then, instead of making the straps even narrower as we see in these photos when they leave the tiller wood and become 'ears,' why not make them wider so that the ears bear against the flat sides of the part that is connected around the top of the shaft when the liller is raised. It might be seen as a modest triangular quadrant shape matching the raising of the tiller with the hinge bolt the apex.

And in the case of the original Ariel tillerhead, let's make the channel a little wider and a little deeper, and put the carriage bolt attachment holes thru the top of the channel. Of course.

At the same time the casting could be lightened up, so that the increased metal would not necessaryly mean extra weight.

[downeaster]

Any advice on tiller replacement for a 63 Ariel? Currently it is just glued together and beyond rough shape.

[commanderpete]

We've had a few threads on that [now merged with this thread]

West Marine is charging $130 for a tiller now :eek:

[Rico]

One of the few projects I've been able to complete...

I went to a shop where I'd seen a good selection. I knew I did not want the same profile as what I assumed was the original on the boat (the knee buster model) I took the old one to the shop with me to do some shape comparisons and selected one that was a an inch or two shorter and about 3 inches taller.

I bought the unfinished 'blank' tiller that was lableled as being for a J-24 (like someone else on the board did...) If I remember correctly it was in the 35-45 dollar range. (Luckily, on Sale)

It was not a bolt-on deal. I had to cut the butt for length, and then cut-in the shape for the tiller fitting top surface & tangs. This touch made it look that much better once installed though - I think...

I stained a bit dark it as I did not want too much contrast between the light & dark colored stripes. Then I applied about 8 coats of Epifanes varnish. Now it looks like this:

[mbd]

Here's an item folks may want to check: I removed the tiller to do some varnishing and found this. :eek:

Looks like this is not the first time this tiller has been installed. I cut off about 6 inches until I got back down to good wood. I guess I'll see how it is to sail with a shorter tiller this season. :o

[ebb]

Mike,
MAN, THAT'S SCARY! Suppose you were going to windward with the rail under?
That's the problem with tillers laminated horizontally like that.
Laminations should be vertical, but nobody's figured how to do it.

That doesn't look like the 'original' bronze tiller fitting like Little Gull has. The fitting has sides like you show
but it is also connected across the top. A CHANNEL form.

If your fitting is a channel, it would be fairly simple to have the bolts go through the top, instead of through the side. It should have been done that way originally. Bolts side ways produce a zipper effect in laminations just as you text-book in your photo.

Off the shelf tillers might be part of the problem too.
It's not easy to tell what glue they're using, or the quality of the inner laminations.


When drilling bolt holes through a tiller in any direction they MUST be sealed with epoxy.
Much like sealing through-deck holes to keep water out of the wood core.
Drill hole, Q-tip lots of epoxy inside. Or tape one side shut and soak with penetrating epoxy. Drain, let the epoxy set, and redrill if necessary.

Would be smart to soak the whole end with penetrating epoxy, and when dry mount the tiller into the metal with old-fashioned (NOT rubber) bedding compound, which will also help keep water out.

If you are making one tiller, make two. Says one boatbuilding site.
If you find the right one
(THE best tiller I've seen on an Ariel is Bill's on MaiTai)
buy a second one.
Better to have a spare than sailing too short!
Better to have a spare than an emergency pipe thingy whatzis.:D
IMCO.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________
If the tiller begins to fall apart while sailing - the quick fix could be strapping hose clamps around the tiller and the fitting. Bind it together. Two or three would get you home. Hopefully......

[Tony G]

Ebb

We can't really argue with you about carrying that spare part. After all, a ship without a rudder is...what...lost? I thought somewhere on this fine, fine site it was stated that laminated wood parts are stronger than solid wood parts. So does this one really boil down to maintenance? Quality of product? Luck of the draw?

Beyond a spare tiller (which I didn't include on the 'spare' list) what would a cruising Ariel or Commander carry as spare parts?

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

That break looks familiar.. my store-bought tiller also de-laminated from that spot to about midpoint on the tiller. after i cleaned out the old glue and relaminated with thicked epoxy i haven't seen the problem reoccur.

cheers,
Bill:)

[mbd]

I didn't think the wood was up to re-laminating, although, in retrospect, maybe I should have just cut the bad part out a filled with epoxy? Oh well, if the shortened version doesn't work out, I'll have a spare tiller.

[mbd]

And here's my tiller fitting. I never realized it wasn't "original" until Bill posted pics of his a while ago. It's bronze, so one of these days I'll have to clean off all the silver paint and get down to the good stuff.

I suppose, since it is closed on top, it does have the advantage that I could seal the bolts through the tiller from the weather easier and keep most of the moisture away from those holes in the future...

[Bill]

Looks original to me . . . :confused:

[c_amos]

FWIW,

That is the exact same casting I have on Faith.. (mine is a bit more wallowed out).

[Tim D.]

FWIW,

That is the exact same casting I have on Faith.. (mine is a bit more wallowed out).
Craig, If by wallowed you mean the holes becoming oval, mine has done the same thing creating a fair amount of slop in the tiller/rudder connection. So I am planning on drilling it out to the next bolt size. Anybody done this?

Tim

[c_amos]

Tim,

I have both that problem and the problem of the sides of the fitting being bowed where the play has widened them out. This problem has been discused in this thread. (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1682) You might wanna take a look at that link before you take out the drill.

[Tim D.]

Thanks Craig, I will keep looking through the threads (I have been) It is mentioned about what the other reasons for the play can be and the inherent danger in drilling it out. But I am pretty sure my play is because of the hole shape, and it seems like it is only going to get worse.

Tim

[mbd]

Looks original to me . . .
I stand corrected. I "misremembered" A231-Bill's posted pics as having 2 long tangs (?) with no top. Thanks for posting the thread, Craig, my quick search last night didn't turn it up...

[ebb]

Beating a dead horse again, but consider this:

WHY NOT DRILL HOLES THROUGH THE TOP?

Then you will clamping those laminations together.


If your 'original' is like my original you have only 1 5/16" width for the wood in the tillerhead. It would be better then to use all the wood you have in the tiller coming out the bottom of the fitting. Two - 2 1/2"?

[Imco bigger bolts will weaken the bury of the tiller even more. There's plenty of over kill in the design of the tillerhead. Once you fit the end of the tiller into the metal it's not going anywhere. The bolts are there only to hold the tiller in place. There's hardly any way you can cinch the sides tighter to the tiller. You want to fit the wood in tight.

If you insist on drilling out the side holes in the tillerhead to make them round again I would use sleeves in the holes, and use the same 5/16" bolts. You will risk weakening the tiller even more with larger bolts. It's really impossible to believe that the holes in the massive sides (plus 1/4") got so out of round that they would still not have enough integrity to work good enough. Maybe holes in the tiller but certainly not the bronze!]


I would seriously consider putting 5/16" bolts in through the top.
You could square the holes by filing and use easy to find silicon bronze carriage bolts for their nice round top. Actually the install would look better. Except, of course, for the empty side holes - maybe glue in wood plugs?:) Or weld them closed and file them smooth. Little Gull's will be this way.

I will use oversize washers.
OR actually I have some 1/8" bronze strip left over from another project, which I'd use in one length instead of washers underneath. Still use split lock washers, This will help support the wood against the time when the tiller is pushed down too far by someone one leaning on it. This is probably why the delamination started in the first place. Not to say the 3 bolt zipper through the lams wasn't the cause!

Even if you put 3 bolts in a line through the top (which is hard to avoid!) the zipper effect is nullified by the immovable sides of the fitting. In fact lining the three bolts up would look good.

I would prep the 5" at the end of the tiller as in ebb's post above, and put it in the metal as snug as you can using bedding compound.

If bronze is too expensive, you can always use 316L stainless.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _
If there is objection to this idea I would really like to hear it.

[Tim D.]

Because this thread is discussing the tiller head at large I thought I would clarify the worn hole I was mentioning.

[carl291]

Hi , from a new member. I think it's best to not enlarge this hole for a larger bolt. Basicly 2 reasons: 1 There is not enough of a shoulder around the hole for a larger bolt. 2 the shaft head piece and the tiller mount bracket has an interference fit which is what should control free play, the bolt is merely the hinge and attachment point. If you should enlarge the bolt to control slop it will right up to the point where the tiller mount will break out by the holes youv'e enlarged. You will have all the tiller leverge on the bolt holes running through the tiller mount and not shared evenly over the shaft head.
In your first picture the wear is evident in this area and needs some shiming. Maybe this helps. Carl

[ebb]

Carl's observation is correct
in my opinion also.

We have talked about the problem on another thread.
I agree that the hinge should not be drilled out for a larger bolt.
That would take too much meat away from the small amount of bronze in this area. If wear happens again, that would be the end of the fitting.

About the only thing I can think of that would help (out side of the volumes of words on the other thread) would be to use heavy tight fitting washers under the head and nut of the hinge bolt. That might take some of the play out. It may be necessary to use smaller washers and drill them out to exactly 3/8".

Since this part of the hinge is exposed and accessible, a crafty skipper might spot weld (MIG, TIG or OXY) the washers on to the tiller fitting. Just a couple touches.
If it works (tightening up the hinge slop) then that's cool.
If it doesn't then grinding the washers off is no big deal.

Putting weld metal in the hole and redrilling for exactly 3/8" is perhaps the right way but you'd need a genius to do it, And be careful the hole was put back exactly where it was originally. Common silicon B. wire or rod would be a upgrade in filling the hole.


Keeping the whole tiller/rudder assembly tuned and tight will make it last.
Renew the O-rings to keep the shaft tight.
Make sure the tiller head fits well. You may have to add shim material inside the cup of the headfitting that engages the shaft.* It should be snug.
Custom file a key out of larger key stock for the keyway so that it fits tight. So that it fits the slot in the head and the slot in the shaft which may have worn wider and more V shaped. The head fitting should not move on the shaft. Permatex(?) has a specific filler goop just for this not so uncommon problem. This clunky 5# tiller assembly is cantilevered off the top one inch of ruddershaft. Rather unfair disadvantage, isn't it? This connection moves 2 1/2 tons of antique boat through multiple tons of wind and water levered by a questional piece wood in the grip of an excited human. This minimal connection should be as perfect as we can get it.
Find this older thread on this subject for other great tips. I believe it is 'bill231' who has put a couple of set screws into opposite sides of the 'cup' that's over the shaft. In addition to the problematic key and keyway that makes a three points anti-movement lock. Great innovation! But, I think Bill said, you have to remember the set screws are THERE!
You may have to clean the nano space between the ears that clamp the head to the shaft. There's minimal clamping.

By the way, notice that one ear in the HEAD has a bushed hole.** The other side of the pair is threaded. The idea is to put the bolt into the non threaded side, screw it into the opposing hole and cinch the ears tighter using the head of the bolt.
When closely looking at the 'bolt clamp' you'll notice that the skinny side is also thinner than the opposite side out to the diameter of the cup - which is very obviously much fatter so as to be non-movable. When ready and on the shaft, a pair of big ViseGrips with the teeth taped might be used to squeeze the cup - THEN turn in the bolt to hold it. Without the bolt in you can carefully open the clamp with a chisel. All this, of course, with the fitting upside down on the work bench.


Nothing should move when installed - except

the rudder back and forth
and the tiller arm up and down

Everything else should be tight and that will keep the wear down.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________________
* A previous thread had discussion about using shim stock to furr out a sloppy tillerhead. One skipper used or found pepsicola can used for the purpose. Purists can find shim stock at McMasterCarr. 316 and 260 brass. Brass might conform better to the hole being 1/3 the hardness of the s.s. Average price $10 for an 8"X12" sheet. Look it up. I don't know how you figure what thickness you want. One sheet will give you 8' of usable 1" wide (the tillerhead cup is 1" deep) shim material.
Try the cola can for size, 1 - 2 -3 wraps, get the thickness with the micrometer, then get the real stuff. Better not to wrap aluminum around the top of the rudder shaft.

**You'll notice that the side with the bushing is narrower in width. Side with the threading is thicker. The thinner side was probably meant to be pulled over towards the thicker side. The bolt no longer can function on my tiller head because the threads have been distorted by near futile tightening. It's a 1"L 5/16" full threaded bronze hex bolt. Gonna have to keep a few extras.

[Tim D.]

Thanks All, I guess I will not risk drilling out the holes unless I have another fitting in hand. (Which of course if I did I would just put it on:))
I had read the other threads but since I didn't see what I wanted I kept hoping;)

I did consider filling and redrilling, but then again the risk factor makes me shy away from that idea.

I will try some of the interim remedies suggested as I really don't like the slop in the steering.

I am about to order a trailer and later in the summer I will be moving her up here from Sausalito and at that time look into a permanent solution.

Tim

[mbd]

Because this thread is discussing the tiller head at large I thought I would clarify the worn hole I was mentioning.
http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/attachment.php?attachmentid=4879&stc=1&d=1210604825

I don't have a picture at the moment, but in regards to the worn hole mentioned above, my tiller fitting looks to have some sort of bronze "collars" that fit the inside of the hole and are just the right diameter for the bolts. (Sorry, no pics at the moment) But they work very well, because everything there is nice and snug...

Also, I'm thinking I'll try Ebb's suggestion and drill through the top of the fitting. I really like his idea of the bronze carriage bolts, so I'll have to pick up an appropriate sized file. I'd welcome any tips as to how to do this with limited tools and little to no expertise. :o

My tentative plan is to drill 2 holes through the top at roughly the same location as the 2 outer holes on the sides, then use the existing bolt and middle hole on the side and use it to keep the sides of the fitting secured.

As I said, "tentative", any and all suggestions/tips welcome!

[ebb]

Mike, that definitely had to be a machineshop fix on the hinge bolt.
They would have milled out the egg shape holes and pressed in the bushings that are probably pretty snug for the bolt. As it should be.
It's really very nice.

On the tiller attachment, that sounds pretty good to me, what you are thinking of doing. If possible see what some others think of the solution, especially those who can think outside the box.

The extra holes will lighten the fitting a bit.:p To the good.

However if the cosmetics bother you, the holes can be filled and ground off (and redrilled out later if need) Welding is easy and 655 forgiving. You don't have alloy changes happening like when you weld with s.s. and aluminum. That's my understanding.

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

an alternate solution might be to wrap the butt of the tiller in one layer of 6Oz cloth to bind the end of the tiller together and re-drill the existing holes.

I have no doubt just any solution will work.:)

cheers,
Bill

[ebb]

Just noticed over on the sailboatowners site that they have tillers for sale.
They have one S shape tiller with a 9.75" rise. Doesn't look like enough to me for the Ariel cockpit, but what do I know?

However, on the 'custom tiller' page there is a thumb nail showing the bottom of a custom tiller. It has a thick pad built on of what looks like a dense tropic wood.

Off the shelf laminated tillers are 1 1/2" wide. Don't know how deep. But deeper will add some overt strength to our 1 1/4" tiller width in the metal. That pad is a great idea if it is glued on there. I'd guess that almost all damage to a laminated tiller comes when somebody sits on it. That pad extending out beyond the through bolts of the tillerhead could be insurance to keep the laminations together.

Along with a glass wrap. AND vertical bolts!:D

[mbd]

an alternate solution might be to wrap the butt of the tiller in one layer of 6Oz cloth to bind the end of the tiller together and re-drill the existing holes.
I'm afraid I have already sawed and dismembered the end of my tiller. I'm going to try and clean it up with a dremmel this weekend and see if I can get it to fit.

Otherwise, I've been looking at tillers online, so Ebb's link is quite timely, though pricey. Defender's run around $60-$70, these are $99! :eek:

Web page here: Stock Custom Tillers (http://http://shop.sailboatowners.com/detail.htm?fno=400&group=1149&cat=2501)

[bill@ariel231]

Tiller Option C is pretty close to the one i'm using now. ;)

[mbd]

How do you like it? Anything you'd change?

[bill@ariel231]

I like the tiller we've got. We usually run the boat with two or three aboard with all folks at the forward end of the cockpit. when we do that, i can keep the tiller down where it belongs without banging my knees.

The triton folks have tried some other patterns (Tim Lackey et. al.) has one on his web site with a sharper rise near the tiller head (close to pattern A) . This may make for some more room at knee level. I think it's worth making a pattern in cardboard or roughing out a mockup from a 2x6 to see what works for you. Good insurance before buying a shape you may or may not be happy with in the long term. If you are buying a store-bought tiller in person, you might be able to trace the shape in cardboard and try it out in your cockpit before buying.

[ebb]

To make the hinge right you need to have solid metal - NO THREADED metal - in the holes. OK?

MCMastercarr for about six bucks has an 18-8 shoulder bolt that would put 2 1/2" of solid machined metal across the holes in the fitting. Their 3/8" shoulder bolts have 5/16" nuts at the tightening end and a 9/16"D head with a 3/16' hex socket... Weird. But you get the idea. 18-8 is a BS term for s.s that comes from the orient.

I lucked out and got a long 3/8" american style bronze hexhead bolt (one NOT threaded to the head) and threaded the shoulder down to where needed. Hex bolts are sometimes casual about their diameter, but I got a pretty one from Jamestown - exactly 3/8" and stamped VFM 655 on the head.
Shoulder bolts are machined exactly to size, and stainless would be OK to use here
but I like this install to be traditional all bronze head, nut and washers. Ended up with only about 5/16-3/8"" of threaded end for a crown nut or nyloc!

Anyway if you want less slop in your tiller to rudder, this seems to be one of the ways you can close it up. When you think about it threads can do some serious cutting to egg out the holes in the tillerhead when the parts loosen up again. Threads are undersized as well, so that's slop built-in.

It is also important imco to put two washers on each side to help stabilize the bolt even more and keep the binding nut from turning off.

[Bill]

Of the "custom" tillers illustrated, check "A." It's similar to the one on Maika'i and allows one to stand while steering without raising the tiller fitting off the tiller head. This prevents the tangs from becoming bent as well as limits the wear in the bolt holes.

These tillers are (or were) available off the rack at West Marine for about $50. Of course, that was ten years ago . . . :o

[Tim D.]

Of the "custom" tillers illustrated, check "A." It's similar to the one on Maika'i and allows one to stand while steering without raising the tiller fitting off the tiller head. This prevents the tangs from becoming bent as well as limits the wear in the bolt holes.

This will probably be the one I will go for eventually, particularly when motoring it is difficult to see over the dodger without standing.

[ebb]

The other tiller source was ID'ed just for research, sorry. But if the same picture of the range of tillers is used in catalogs we could assume they are from the same maker.

The important thing for me was the addition of a strongback on the underside of custom tillers.

I will always go with Defender. They are the ones to check prices against.
A family owned marine supply, the business has been around since before computers. Since Seabiscuit defeated War Admiral, since Joe Lewis knocked out Schmeling, since the first nylon toothbrush and the first ballpoint pen! That's OLD. They may be the oldest continuous marine catalog.

And so far as I know have never forced any other marine chandlery out of business like a certain outfit that is often mentioned on this Board.
They've never let me down.:cool:

[ebb]

For tillers try this:
http://wwwpyacht.com/online-store/scstore/h-h_andl_tillers.htm
It's a tiller page with a dozen or more tiller shapes.
Mike, will you borrow it to over here???:o

Blasted thing didn't take and I tried to erase it.
But if you can get to pyacht the site has an H&L woodworking page, which shows they do a bunch of other stuff including making CUSTOM tillers to order. I think you'd expect to pay twice the price of the ready mades.

{On pyacht.com they have an access port to H&L Woodworking (Even I got There!) Then, on that sort of home page you scroll a short menu to Tillers.}

The picture of the tillers Mike put up for us are H&L for class boats. Their forms are more stiff than the drawings of another set of tillers on that H&L/pyacht channel. Those great looking sexy tillers are what I will choose from. Defender uses one nice picture for all their listed tillers, have to assume they are all the same pattern, and that pattern I think is one of the group here. It's a definite 'S' shape, not flattened like the class boat pictures.


I checked out the tiller info in the A/C Manual. H&L makes or used to make
a copy of the original Pearson tiller for our boats. The scale drawing (pg83) is not an 'S' shape at all, but a very conservative 2" bow. You may find a substitute for the original in the classboat group but shorter. 48" max.
The tiller drawing in the Manual is 50" long.

If I find a readymade I like I'd go with a longer one like the 54 1/2" and tailor it.
This particular one is also wider. Because of all the talk here I"m thinking of making a wood model of an alternate tillerhead, and getting it cast. One that will take a wider butt. If I don't get around to it I can always skinny the tiller down to fit the one we got.

That model in current online Defender is 1262F and weighs a whopping 5.2#. Have to think about it a little. Before I order I will cross check with H&L on the shape - and confirm the model number with Defender.
Probably fake a close resemblance of any tiller you like by making a rough scale and sketch - freehand a quick cut out in cardboard or 1/4" pressboard - hold it up in the cockpit. Hey, it's important!

The 'S' shape is important to me and so is the extra length. I wanna stand at times and I wanna sit on coamings (cushioned.)

A new off the shelf class tiller, even if a little short, would make a classy spare imco.


THE QUESTION IS
how long is the ideal tiller?
How do we measure an 'S' tiller - straight from butt to tip? If a tiller can easily go above sitting knees, then is it a good idea to have a longer one?
What's too long? When it hits the coamings.
The longer the tiller the easier the steer BUT it's also a wider arc, and reaching here and there all day long in the cockpit will get old too.
OK, who knows?

Comments? Who among us has the ideal tiller, h m m m m m?

[Tim D.]

I had been doing a little research also but the Pyacht does have the best page to identify what H&L can do.

But on further contemplation I think I might make a mock up as someone (I think maybe Pete) suggested.

Because besides issues of having to stand to motor and knees getting in the way while steering on a heel, I also realized I may someday want to put in a autopilot or at least a sheet to tiller system, so how the tiller sweeps up may play an important role.

I figure if I end up buying or making a custom tiller, it might as well be exactly the way I want it.

Tim

[mbd]

Here's Ebb's link from post #30:

H&L Woodworking (http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/h-h_and_l_woodworking.htm)

And their tillers:
http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/graphics/HNL_Tillers_abc.gif
http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/graphics/HNL_Tillers_defg.gif
http://www.pyacht.com/online-store/scstore/graphics/HNL_Tiller_Choose.gif

[mbd]

Ok. Here we go. And pardon the "workmanship". (It's a bit embarrassing after Rico's mast base.) :o

I drilled 2 5/16 holes in the top of my tiller fitting, then "squared" them with a dremel to fit bronze carriage bolts. (1/2 way done in the pic.) I also "squared" the middle hole in the side to fit a third carriage bolt.

[mbd]

I shaped the butt end to accept the tiller fitting, then clamped it on and drilled the 5/16 holes for the carriage bolts.

[Bill]

One of the last two is on Maika'i. Here's some contact info:

H & L Marine Woodwork, Inc.

2965 E. Harcourt
Rancho Dominguez, CA 90221
Tel: (323) 636-1718
Fax: (323) 636-1720

New ownership sometime in the '90's. Not clear if they sell direct any longer, but they did supply West for a number of years.

http://www.socalsail.com/bg/co/h-l-marine-woodwork-inc/

And, you can also order their tillers from Defender:

http://www.defender.com/category.jsp?path=-1%7C118%7C297677&id=76313

[mbd]

Dry fit after being drilled - I like it! :)

[mbd]

I over-drilled all the holes, taped and q-tipped epoxy throughout.

At this point, it was obvious I needed to do something to "snug" the fit better. I wet out the butt end and added fiberglass mat over the part that was carved out, and then wrapped a couple of layers of cloth all the way around the tiller. Over that, I added a layer of wax paper and then clamped the tiller fitting onto the end of the tiller.

[mbd]

I let it set up for a few hours, then removed the fitting and wax paper. Tomorrow, I'll clean ip up and redrill the bolt holes.

At this point, I figure I'm covered. I drilled through the top of the fitting as Ebb suggested, then wrapped it in fiberglass as Bill suggested. And, to paraphrase CPete, if it's not right, I can always sand it all off and do it again - or buy one of those really nice tillers earlier in this thread. (I'd really like to get Tiller "G" above like Admin Bill's...) :)

[Tony G]

?Pardon the workmanship? You're hired! How soon can you make it over to Northern Minnesota?

That looks like a top notch rehab for the tiller you started this thread with! When are you going to try it out? And, of course, take pictures:cool:

Geeez, I can't even remember where I put my tiller...woe.

[ebb]

Mike, Great photos of your tiller rehab. Just what the doctor ordered for those damn delams.

It's too bad so much carving has to be done to get the tiller to fit the head.


Current online Defender catalog pictures only "F" style tillers from H&L. Some look like they are 'on sale.'
These do certainly seem to be the tiller style that MaiTai has. I don't know what size Bill has. They come in different lengths and widths. And at the moment Defender seems to be offering all the non-custom F style tillers that H&L makes.

I don't know what is best. Believe that racers might want a tidier version because of extra knees - while a cruiser might go for a longer one to make it easy to reach areas of the cockpit and still have a bodypart on the tiller.

Perhaps the time has come for that spare?
I've ordered the big one. Figure I can always cut it shorter and trim the sides down.....

[Tim D.]

I've ordered the big one. Figure I can always cut it shorter and trim the sides down.....

The big one being ?, #__________

Thanks Tim

[ebb]

612322>Mod130F (Santana 22/27) 45"L - butt 1 5/16"X2"H........62.99
612323>Mod1251F (J-24) 48 1/2"L - butt 1 12/32"X2 1/8H.........64.99
612324>Mod1252F (J-30) 54 1/2"L - butt 2 3/8"X2 1/2"...........102.99
612318>Mod101F (Cal 20/21) 60" - butt 1 5/8"X2"H..................68.99
612319 Mod105F (Cal 25) 48" - butt 1 5/8"X2H........................63.99
612320>Mod112F (Ranger 26/28) 43"L - butt 1 1/2"X2""............62.99

I'd call H&L and ask what the rise is for the tillers you are interested in.
The rise is, as I understand it, the height the S makes measured from the bottom of the butt. Maybe they have a fax-able data sheet???
So if you had that measurement and have the length and assume a fair curve (because tillers are bent wood the S curve won't be too radical) you could fake a decent representation of a tiller on cardboard - and see if that is what you want in the cockpit. You need two measurements: the rise and the length measured along the same horizontal the butt rests on.

It's an assumption this group of H&L "F" tillers are all proportionate to their length. In other words that they are all scaled versions of one another.
Seems unlikely considering these are class tillers and may have to conform to original designer specs and class racing rules. While Defender has 6 'F' tillers listed online (and the lowest prices), pyacht lists 16 class tillers in the 'F' design - more expensive but not near as ridiculous as rigrite.

I felt the Cal 20/21 was too long and skinny for me and ordered the J-30 because of its extra lams. Have other ideas for a tiller head and felt I needed a hefty tiller to play with.
Shortening one of these tillers, if so desired, would consist of cutting short or long on a fairly healthy length of butt-end these tillers all look like they have.
The 5 footer may well be the ideal off the shelf customizer for the Ariel. And the Commander too.

INPUT...INPUT...NEED INPUT... PLEASE RESPOND..


It's important to have a comfortable tiller. When you're reaching around for it in the dark you'd want it to be there above seat-level, easy to grab, right where it ought to be.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
These are current Memorial Day Defender prices 2008. (and they may have changed.) Copied the data as best I did, but it may be screwed up.
Gas prices this holiday are above $4gal and rising - all prices are skyrocketing. The only thing that'll be cheaper tomorrow is the dollar.:eek:

[mbd]

Still needing varnish, but I'm out of time. The "sea trial" is tomorrow - launch day. This revised tiller comes in at a mere 38 1/2". But, I'm hoping it'll be more out of the way in my cozy cockpit. I'll report back on how well or not it works.

Not sure what to do with the bolt sticking out - just cut it off? There must be a more elegant way...

[mbd]

Not sure of the relevance of this, but when I was cleaning up the tiller head, it had #12 stamped on it.

[ebb]

The tiller I ordered from Defender arrived this afternoon.
It's marked as an "F" tiller, and bearing the maker's number as 1252F, I think.
But is

NOTHING LIKE THE PICTURE IN THE ONLINE DEFENDER CATALOG

and is totally unlike the drawings in the Custom and Stock list under the H&L logo.

The tiller has hardly any rise at all.
It is the vaguest S shape you can imagine. It is for all intents and purposes a Straight tiller. More like an "A" or a "B" in the drawings.

H&L Marine Woodwork, Inc., the maker of what seems to be the only laminated tillers commercially made, seems to be alive and well. They will be getting a call from me on Monday morning - and also Defender.

I don't even want this thing I got as a backup!!!
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
VERY nice lady at H&L faxed me the ax on their tillers. Seems that the "F" I picked up out of the Defender catalog (1252F) referred to F as in Finished, varnished.
The tiller shape Defender shipped is an "A" style. Which is clear, probably, on the illustrations from the posts above.
YES, you and I probably want the "F" style rudder - BUT the price list and the Class boat tiller all use the confusing F (for Finish - why not V for Varnish?) in their list. None of the tillers are described by their shape or alphabetical model. So unless you know the shape of Class boat tillers you have to ask H&L. I received a full page rendition of their ready-made tillers that are very close to inch to foot scale, making them very easy to scale up full size.

I'll fake a full size rep of their F tiller (51"X7 1/2"rise - H&L #137) used on the Ranger 33 and trial it in Little Gull's cockpit. Its shape is really cool, I'll be able to make minor adjustments and decide if it's OK, or make an exact model of more radical changes to send. Or laminate my own.

First,
the "F' shape tiller I'm referring to is the tiller in the drawings that is bowed most of its length - then esses quickly down into the butt. Of the two S shape tillers pictured it is the longer one. Since our tillerhead rests at an angle to the cockpit sole, I'm only guessing that the chord in the bow (that the shorter one doesn't have) will more likely get the handle horizontal at seat height. Which I feel is ideal. We'll see. It would be so convenient to have a off the self whenever needed.


Second,
According to my informant, when referring to the Class boat tillers, only two of this pattern fit the bill.
1157F ERICSON 27 - 2"X2" - 46 3/4"L with a 5" rise. - $69.98.
137F RANGER 28 & 33 - 1 7/8"W X 2 1/4"D - 51"L with a 71/2" rise. $84

It would seem that the Ranger tiller would do. But in the resting/down position is the rise correct and the handle in the best position?
To me, but I may be wrong, the best resting position has the handle more or less horizontal. Casually steering while sitting would not need the tiller to be lifted..... effortless. Maybe easier to rig the auto-pilot and figure out self-steering modes.

Third,
She said you can have a custom tiller made for about the same price! 3 weeks. So, if you want more length, or more rise, send them a pattern. Might send them a pattern and ask them to close match it to tiller mold they don't always make. Don't see how they can do a 'one off' for a price close to regular ones.

If anybody has input on this it would be great.
1) Especially on the length - a tiller could be... too long - pro and cons. The longer the tiller the easier to move the rudder.
2) Rise - a tiller could come out of the tiller head and end up at the other end in an uncomfortable position for extended steering, sitting or standing. The last thing I'd want is a tiller that bugged me. What's ideal?

Fourth,
Defender will take the tiller back. But guess who pays UPS?;)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
Prices are current as faxed to me. They have gone up.
We can order directly from H&L. I wouldn't mind a custom tiller one bit - if it was the perfect fit for the cockpit. Ordering from the maker means all the widths, depths and lengths are up-front. I would want to do the finishing. IE soak it first in penetrating epoxy.
The mahogany in the laminations looks like philippine lauan.
Every lamination in the "A' tiller that's going back shows flawless pieces.

Purists will have to put up with the lams 'running out' on the bottom of all these tillers as they taper toward the handle. A good reason for vigilance in varnishing. If I go custom, I'll ask if the tiller can be put back in the mold after initial taper routing and have a full length bottom piece glued over the run-outs before final rounding and shaping. Never know!

[ebb]

Made a quick full scale doorskin pattern of the H&L Model F Ranger 30 tiller.
Took it to the cockpit with all the anticipation of a first date.
It might be OK for some skippers.
[And the main assumption is that at least a third of the tiller length at rest will be above legs in the front of the cockpit. On paper the Ariel cockpit is a four adult capacity - but in use it's really a two seater. The tiller up, it's a four, maybe a five. Probably have trouble sorting legs back out.]

I cut about 2" off the butt. (The tillerhead can only take 5" of wood.)
That put the tip of the handle end about 18" away from the vertical edge of the bridgedeck. That seems pretty good. The length of the tiller at this point is a little less than 50".
The handle end, however, points up - at about the same angle as the tiller head at the other end. Feel that a level handle feels better under the palm.

The mounted tillerhead is of course 90 degrees to the shaft.
The shaft enters the cockpit floor at about 59 to 61 degrees.
That means the tillerhead in relation to the sole is at an attitude of about 30 degrees.
HOWEVER, because of the 60 degree shaft angle the tiller curves downward as you swing it toward the seats. So extra height may be a good thing. You know, with seat cushions and chunky legs, the tiller could still be too low!

And it just happens that the handle of this test model points up at about 30 degrees. Quick check on the height off the deck to the dimple at the end of the handle is approx 33.5" Which is a nice height imco BUT, if anybody is following this,
the height of my shaft exiting the rudder tube is about 6" off the deck. I believe it protrudes more then most people have it. I don't remember anymore where the height should be. But that seems reasonable and I will probably keep it there. It helps to get the tiller off the floor! Measuring to the bottom of the tillerhead from the cockpit deck put it at 9 1/4".
(I use a 1" wood dowel mock up and the finished rudder may not have the same shaft length.) You can't add too much length or the tiller'll be in the lazarette.

SO, I can see a tiller LIKE this one, same height, but with more pronounced bow or chord.
Same tiller but bent more from mid curve.
Estimate that curving the handle down about 3 1/2" would get the handle close to the ideal level - and have the H&L patent dimple at the end of the tiller around 30" off the deck with the tiller housed. It's reasonable to assume that two people sitting opposite in the fore part of the cockpit will be able to have the tiller down and not in the way of sandwiches and grog.
I'll redraw the pattern and send it to H&L after executing the doorskin shuffle. It's probably a pretty radical shape so I'm prepared to laminate my own. But at this point I'd rather purchase. This curvey tiller might be a bear to laminate.

Can see that as usual I have made the assumption that the ideal tiller is one that leaves the tillerhead ASAP and curves up above human knees if at all possible. This may not be ideal or shippy for everybody.


It would be great to know where the tillerhead is in relation to the deck on people's Ariels. Measure up at 90 degress to the end of the metal tillerhead. In regards to finding the almost perfect tiller.

See you later at ebb's gallery.:)

[commanderpete]

H & L made me a tiller based on the drawing at pg. 83 in the Manual.

I have a notation that their part number may be "obsolete tiller handle # 1162"

Something a bit flatter at the tip might be nice

[commanderpete]

One more pic, not sitting on a cushion

[mbd]

Here's the shortened tiller installed. (38 1/2") I think it'll work out fine and the shorter version will make for more room in a crowded Ariel cockpit...

[mbd]

I got some Mahogany flavored LifeCalk and filled the spaces where water could get in. We'll see how long this one lasts.

[ebb]

Mike, personally, I believe you have a first class fix there!

Altogether a great renovation.

Imco your smoothing the transition without abrupt cutting of the fatter tiller into the metal tillerhead the way you did is the best way The tiller should last as long as the wood holds out. The lams are no longer part of a problem.

I also like the 'button' shape of the carriage bolt heads. Usually don't see them with thick edges like that - and they also seem flatter than the higher dome usually seen. Handsome fastenings, those.

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

the tiller fix looks great, and 38 1/2" doesn't sound too short to me. It looks a lot like the one i've got installed on Periwinkle

cheers,
bill@ariel231

[ebb]

Something has always bugged me about that tiller fitting. First thing was its humongous weight. Second is the narrow channel for the tiller wood.

Can't see that any strength would be lost by scooping out some of the top of the tillerhead. However, with laminated tillers predominating, the closed top allows a decent way to attach a shapely laminated tiller using vertical bolts..

A composite tiller could be designed that would attach the tiller to the OUTSIDE of the present tiller fitting.

In other words the tiller would be split to go around the metal sides rather than THROUGH it! It's the tiller that would have tangs.
Such a tiller could virtually eliminate the breaking moment of our usual insert tiller that has barely 1 1/4" of wood thickness doing all the work. Could call it a wishbone type design with the split meeting sooner or later up the tiller shank to become the standard handle form. Would keep it even lighter not filling between.

Seems to me that the narrowness of our tiller inserted into the metal could just as easily break there where it leaves the fitting. Even done as Mike has. The tiller after all is a lever and at a real disadvantage in this application.


Can't see that the laminated tiller form as we know it could be altered into a split version as described. Too much small wood. But a modern foam and fabric (this has already been done with carbon) tiller might work.

[HOOKMAN]

I also recently got a replacement tiller for my 1966 Pearson Ariel from H&L and am quite pleased with it. Here are the details:
323-636-1718
Tiller shape: E
bracket end height: 2 inches
bracket end width: 1 and 1/4 inches
length of tiller: 39 inches
curve height: 2 and 1/4 inches
$70.70 finished

[mbd]

That would certainly have been the easier route to go!

PS. Finally got a sail in and I think the tiller will work out fine - no problem with the shorter length...

[GreggA107]

Hey Commanderpete,

Was reading this thread in the archive because my tiller is split at the handhold end and seems solid at the bracket end. Just getting ideas for a replacement. Where was this shot taken? Either one of those mugs you? :D

[ebb]

H & L Marine Woodwork
2965 E Harcourt St.
Rancho Dominguez Ca 90221
323-636-1718
310-638-8746
fax 323-636-1720

Largest and oldest marine workworking outfit in US.
Probably make all of the ash/mahogany laminated tillers you see in any catalog (pyacht, defender, wm) and in any store.
The tillers have a sleek and recognizable style.

[They custom made a tiller for litlgull* for about the same cost as one of their ready-made classboat tillers.
I mailed them a full sized cardboard pattern which they translated into a beautiful laminated tiller at a reasonable price. And in about a week.]
Check their prices first befor committing to an internet catalog purchase.

They may have a pattern for a replacement tiller for Ariel/Commanders.
Ask, if that's what you want.
They may have made and supplied the original tillers for Pearson A/Cs 50 years ago.


*You can get your new tiller bare or varnished. Since the tiller has to be carved to get it to fit our tiller head - and also I wanted to prep the wood myself with penetrating epoxy and use Epifanes varnish - I got it unfinished. It was a little cheaper, but also arrived nicely sanded, ready to go, and beautifully made.

A pleasurable experience!


{I must apologize for all the endless repetition I have made here on this subject.

In the future I'll try to remember to review the thread BEFOR posting. Sorry.:o:o:o}

[commanderpete]

Hi Greg

I'm in the back on one of those pictures

Ebb is right, H & L is the place to go. They still don't have a website I believe.

I like the tiller design from the Manual. It might be improved if the handhold end drooped down so it was a bit flatter

Edit: I found another thread on tillers -- [now merged with this thread, Moderator]

[ebb]

That has to be (from the nice way the tiller handle ends)
an H&L.
And that's taller than the the Montauk Lighthouse the young man is looking at...so where are we?

[Commander152]

My tiller has some fixable cracks in it. I plan to buy a new tiller, and then, fix the old one and use it as a backup.

For the new tiller I have two questions:

1. I see the drawing on page 83 of this association's manual. It sounds like people like the shape and it looks better than my current tiller, so I am thinking about going with the drawing. Have others had good experience using the drawing?

2. Do forum members recommend any new tiller companies? In my web search I found Rudder Craft in Idaho (they have a Commander Tiller) and Anytiller in Georgia (they will make you a custom tiller). Are these good companies or does anyone have a different post-H&L favorite?

[Commander152]

My Pearson Commander tiller has some fixable cracks in it. I plan to buy a new tiller, and then, fix the old one and use it as a backup.

For the new tiller I have two questions:

1. Do forum members recommend any new tiller companies? In my web search I found Rudder Craft in Idaho (they have a Commander Tiller that looks similar to my current Tiller) and Anytiller in Georgia (they will make you a custom tiller). Are these good companies or does anyone have a different post-H&L favorite?

2. I see the drawing on page 83 of this association's manual. It sounds like people like the shape and it looks better than my current tiller, so I am thinking about going with the drawing. Have others had good experience using the drawing?

BTW, This forum is hugely helpful and so is the manual. I thank you all for managing the forum and keeping it active. I hauled out my boat and had all the bottom work done as specified in the manual. Thanks!

[ebb]

H&L probably got sold 10 years ago, thereabouts. But someone is still around on the
internet selling tillers very like H&L They will show a stack of their tillers very much like
the original company did. But it may also have new ownership. RUDDER CRAFT
comes to mind, MauriPro looks like they offer class laminated tillers,
which may be RudderCraft.

I didn't like the original knee basher tiller and, made up a pattern slightly more S curve (it
looks more radical than it is) that swings pretty much above sitting knees in the back of the
cockpit. Instead of close matching to an existing class tiller, they used the pattern to
make an exact copy, and charged me no more than a normal price, which always was
very reasonable.

I like the tiller very much. The exaggerated S curve looks normal to me. It also allows
the tiller to be used in the resting down position when the helmsman is standing, where
the tiller is supported in the tiller-head, instead of being angled up using only the 5/16"
machine screw that attaches the tiller to the head. This screw/bolt is not easily replaced.
I have never found a ready-made.

I don't believe the boat should be steered with the tiller in the raised position.

One other thing. These laminated tillers are at a disadvantage with the attachment bolts
passing thru the laminations in their present side to side position. This is where we see most
wood to metal failures occur. After reducing the tiller end to fit the channel, I located the
attachment bolts thru the top of the channel so that the laminations are held in a clamp
position. Instead of washers under the nuts underneath I made a short one piece strip out
bronze strap. This may be unnecessary.

I lucked out back then when I scored what I stlll think is a perfect tiller. Fastening the
laminated tiller thru the top came from one of our owners here, sorry, forget who, but is
the perfect alternative to attaching softer glued-up material to that massive tillerhead.
Isolate the wood from the metal.

Likely that the tiller will need replacement in the future. Use an old-fashioned bedding
compound to waterproof the connection. Seal the end of the tiller with liquid epoxy. If
no bedding compound is available judiciously use LANOCOTE, you want to keep fresh
water out of the joint. Don't use any of the rubbers like 4200, Sikaflex, BoatLife. I
wouldn't use butyl or butyl tape either! NO RUBBER.

Semper Alberg!

[Commander152]

I assume your S-shaped tiller is different from the one in the commander manual. Is this assumption correct?

[ebb]

YES did find a doorskin pattern for the Litlgull tiller.

Being doorskin I will assume it is accurate and was
used to send H&L the pattern. If interested, send me
an email: eborregaard@hotmail.com.

There may be somewhere in Ebb's Gallery a photo
of the tiller, or the pattern???


Could say the knee-friendly tiller is more of a bow
shape with a short angled straight end into the tiller-
head.
You could sit in the cockpit with a stiff piece of card
board and using your straight tiller Sharpie a few
curvaceous lines to get the idea. H&L ash and
mahogany tillers have a beautiful taper, which was
created for the 'cobra' style tiller that H&L made.


Suggestion: Go to the ruddercraft.com site. Go in
thru products/tillers and hit the Ranger29 tiller. It
has a fairly pronounced upward curve. BUT lay a
straight edge under the picture, you'll see the curve
is not as radical as it seems. I made a full sized
pattern of a Ranger tiller (back then), didn't like it
because the upward curve was too gradual. It is an
'S' curve. So I made a pattern with a quicker rise.

I know nothing about RudderCraft. Wouldn't
surprise me they'd make a custom tiller using a
custom pattern but using their own taper formula.
For a price. Maybe reasonable!
They seem to have all the old class patterns that
H&L had, they must be direct descendants..

[ebb]

Swear there was a new post here that laid out the measure of the rudder stock..

Turns out the stock is 69 1/4" OA. Hope to get back here with a little more..

__________________________________________________ ______________
Ebb's a wee confused. Go to RUDDER DISCUSSIONS for rudder stock talk.