Mast Issues & Renovation [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

Tony G

03-26-2004, 08:40 AM

Ebb
I thought you had a carbon fiber mast in your sights. Besides, I was hoping to snag 338's mast in case I 'botched beyond belief 'our mast :D Paint you say-now we can revisit some old mast issues. I'm sure you have the low down on aluminum prep already so I'll jump ahead. I'm wonderin' what paint you're going to use. Awlgrip? Interlux? None of the above? Wally Bryant went with the latter and most manufacturers seem to like the former. I'm leaning toward the Awlgrip myself despite the horror stories and ample warnings. Masochist? Maybe. Seems to be very durable. I'd be interested to know what Scott G has on his mast that reportedly has been flaking off over time. Everything I've read indicates that the prep work is what makes the difference. (now there's a real shocker) And then we have the spreader issue. A while back you mentioned some retrofit 'wing-type' spreaders from.....somebody, can't remember who now. Any update on that point?
Hardware removal? Did you search the forum here yet? I remember saving some info about a year or so ago on removal and reattachment of hardware because I thought it would be particularly handy when we started working on the mast. Maybe it was Tim L's site or Wally B. but I thought it was Theis right here. There are some miracle solutions out there but I suppose one has to be concerned with their effect on paint adhesion in the end. Like Dave sez, impact drivers can be very handy. Judicious application of heat may also work. I'd save the extractors for last resort. I really like the fact that you're months ahead of us so you can solve all of the problems before we get to them up here:p Seriously, Ebb, I'm looking forward to seeing what's next. You have an outstanding rebuild going on out there and I appreciate all of the 'heads-ups' and information you're sharing. And hats off to Bill and all the others that have put this web site up and keep it running. After all, isn't this what the whole internet thing was supposed to be about? Tony G

ebb

03-26-2004, 11:11 AM

Right on all you say Tony. And this IS the greatest site. What a marvelous help this has been in my adventure with 338!

Other skipper's topsides are being sprayed at the yard as we speak. There's one guy who is the 'pro'. He sprays Awlgrip and Sterling. Sterling, evidently, but hearsay only on my part, has the better brushable. That would mean I COULD save the expense of hiring the job and do it myself. BLAH, blah.

It is taking FOREVER to fair the topsides. And I've even got myself in deeper by fairing the keel just forward of the rudder. Can't stand it any more!

I have found a scratch filler called SuperFil, a waterbourne epoxy that I will report on when I get to it.

Haven't done anything on the mast by way of prep. But painting it and the boom would be a way to prep myself to paint the topsides with Sterling. (I sprayed a fabulous LPU orangepeel on a boat once!) However, I can barely work with a dustmask any more much less than a fullface fresh air hood that I would probably insist on. Think I can do without the personal LPU experience. It may not be more than $1000 (?) if I get the prep perfect down to the hibuild.

Maybe the mast and boom should be aimed more at touck up and maintenance. Therefor something more friendly than LPU, what product I don't know. The way I'm going, something you can do in stages.

I'll go the whole route of painting the aluminum according to Hoyle. But I'll check in with you guys on that.

On that note, I've scraped (goddam silacone) and scrubbed and filled (with LabMetal) the little old opening ports and the window frames. They are at the powder coaters for a nice metalic bronze (with a satin clear top coat, yup) color coat. They'll never become green. Wonder if they do masts?

ebb

03-29-2004, 07:15 AM

Someone was saying that they used vinegar to soften frozen fastenings in aluminum. We're talking 'white' - not Bragg's organic applecider with the mother still in it - but you never know.

IMPORTANT:
Again, someone was saying that there is a manual screw loosener on the market. It something you hit with a hammer that progresses the screw. Must be a spring loaded gizmo. It's a bear to keep a screwdriver blade in the slot at the best of times - so it's hard to believe this works,

Anybody used this tool? Or seen it?

tcoolidge

03-29-2004, 08:29 AM

the gizmo would be the impact driver previously mentioned. They work but take a little getting used to (the okay, smack it hard, really hard oops that was my wrist sounds like the voice of experience) Have used them to free frozen screws on old Caterpillars and farm equipment. They work on the principle of surprise- smack it hard on one end, which mechanically translates the impact to tremendous torque on the other that happens so fast the frozen offender never knows what hit it and doesn't have time to resist. All they are designed to do is break frozen parts free. You still get to screwdriver all those lovely screws out once you get them loose. Have fun. And watch your wrist. Some kind of wrist protector isn't a bad idea. Forcefully swung hammers and wrists do not go well together.

Tom

ebb

03-29-2004, 09:19 AM

Geeeeeze! Tom... Was imagining something you held in yer fist and hit with a ballpeen hammer! Not an air tool, tho the estate here has a couple compressors. I mean the mast ain't no D8 - and we're into aluminum not rusty 1/2 inch plate! I would kill the mast and the track with something I couldn't feel or finesse.

I KNOW it was a HAND tool I heard about. The big stuff scares the ............... out of me!:D

commanderpete

03-29-2004, 09:22 AM

Check out this discussion of painting the mast from Tim's site.

http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=234&highlight=paint+mast&sid=bdde91670564ebed36d30095c2e77223

The screw bits that come with an impact driver will probably be too large for the small screws on the mast. You can first hammer the bit into the screw head so it can get a grip. Then stick the tool on the bit and pound away.

I didn't have much luck with an impact driver.

ebb

03-30-2004, 08:34 AM

C'pete, Tim's site does indeed have some helpful markers to an Awlgriped mast.
There is a group of 5 or 6 cans of liquids one has to buy to do it the Awlgrip way. Cleaners etchers thinners and the color. Toxic comes with the territory.

I probably wouldn't have any luck either with the "Hand impact driver and bit set" $14 from JC Whitney.
Stuck fastenings can be turned out with it 14 or 18 volt cordless with a varible speed. I think the cordless gearing is more gradual than a plug in, but then who's tried all the brands? It's amazing, tho, the amount of torque the modern cordless drivers can generate, especially when one is leaning on them.

Have to use a bit that EXACTLY fits the phillips in the track and lean on the tool while just barely engaging it to provide a deadslow but irresistable turning force. (Used this method on the windows and the opening ports.)

Here's what some other guys suggest.
Propane torch on the metal around the fastening (idea is to expand that metal not the fastening) But if face to face with the guy I would point out that 'expanding' the metal surely would tighten it around the screw!
Another sez: heat the screw with a torch.
Another tip (a good one IMCO) is to tighten first, then back it out.
Hit the screw befor you do anything.
Set the bit into the screwhead by hitting it. Both tipsters agreed that what was required were light taps, not whacks, like you get with the impact driver.
Then there are the liquid loosers to try: PBP Blaster, Liquid Wrench, and gasoline. No actual OILs here, as we are attempting to break thru the white oxide that has expanded and is holding the fastening. Oil and maybe these liquids might contaminate the spar as well.

All methods basically aim at cracking the white stuff. There isn't too much of that in the few turns in the wall of a spar. So, whatever works. One guy pointed out that the problem with fittings like cleats on the mast is that the fastening is frozen IN the cleat. He says he cuts them in half and turns them out.

You mean you've sailed all these years with the mainsail tugging away at the track and never wondered what was holding things together?

:rolleyes:

Tony G

03-31-2004, 06:01 AM

Now you've got me SO paranoid that I'm going to TRY to back a few screws out of the big stick today.

ebb

03-31-2004, 06:18 AM

You befor me, Tony, maybe freezing helps too! (shrinking vs expanding)

Ted

04-04-2004, 06:34 PM

All it takes is patience! I recently painted mine with Awlgrip. Let's see what I can remembers....

1) I left the track on (too many screws) and masked around it.
2) I pulled most of the rest of the hardware using
a) hand impact
b) compressed air impact (broke a few that way)
c) lots of patience
d) lots of screwloose (that's the only brand I'll use -- forget WD40 and all the other water/kerosene based crap)

The trick is to work on it every day and once you get a screw moving force it in and out a few times AND THEN STOP -- it gets hot and that is when they break.

As for the awlgrip -- first I cleaned and light sanded, then I used two chemicals which I forget -- surely one was a major degreaser and the second an acid etch. Then two primers -- one because it is annodized and one between the first primer and the paint. I have accidentally hit the mast and boom with a hammer several times and can definitely say that the paint is on there for good.

Ted

ebb

04-05-2004, 06:40 AM

Thanks Ted,
I'll check out the Screwloose. I'll stay away from any oils, even kerocene, so as not to contaminate the aluminum. And the way it's going I may put off the track til later, but pull a few to check it out.

LPU is a big deal. The system requires a whole bunch of cans, each one phenominally expensive. I talk about it down at the yard with the guys. Each time the process becomes a little clearer. But won't know diddley-squat til I jump in.

commanderpete

04-20-2004, 06:57 AM

Here you go ebb. Another article on painting the mast. Discusses some cheaper alternatives for the prep materials.

http://www.anzam.com/howto_index_005.htm

ebb

04-22-2004, 10:19 AM

Thanks C'pete,
Like these guys!
This is where the best practical info on stuff frozen to the spar came from!
They're also opinionated, which makes it possible to disagree with them.

Tony G

04-22-2004, 08:37 PM

I've raided their site off and on over the last year. There is lots of good info theretoo. I hate to become a label whore but I like Ted's annectdote about the hammer...sounds like me all the way. Has anyone here used Inter-Thane and had those stellar results. I'd like to use something durable like Awl Grip but there sure is a lot of the year left at the end of the money;) The gut I bought our O'day from says Imron is just as good and cheaper. Though I think Imron has to be sprayed and it's tough to find people around here with real experience with it. Maybe we can talk Scott into repainting his mast with something else and then he can post the results. Just fishing Tony G

ebb

04-22-2004, 11:13 PM

Been looking into these solvent LPUs. There are essentially two kinds. The leader of the pack is polyester urethane. Hardest, longest lasting, best color retention, that kind of thing.
Next is acrylic LPU. Generally an automotive spray. tho there is a brushing version, fast drying, looks just as good but not as durable. I believe Imron is in this category.
There are Interlux two-part products used by the pros in the yard, but so far no topside film where I'm at.
[meant to add Awlgrip has what I think is their interior acrylic lpu called Awlcraft 2000]

System Three has a waterborne LPU. Don't know nothing about it. I think it is an acrylic. Gonna look into it. You have to clear coat the color to get a wet look. But the trouble with clearcoats is that they break down fast. Be nice to use a paint, tho, you don't have to die from. Gee, maybe it would be tre cool to leave the topsides satin?
I think the acrylics are easier to fix. Mess up your precious Awlgrip and you ARE in a fix.

A whole lot can be said for an Awlgrip or Sterling finish on the boat. One thing it says is that you spent a lot of money. The other thing you can say is that it better last a good long time.

commanderpete

04-23-2004, 08:40 AM

I used Interthane Plus LPU to paint the topsides on my boat. Brushes on pretty easy. Proper thinning is the key.

Someday I'll get around to painting the mast. I even thought about painting on a faux wood finish like they've been doing on carbon fibre spars, as on this schooner

http://www.compositesworld.com/sections/hpc/issues/2004/January/mast-352.jpg

commanderpete

04-23-2004, 08:42 AM

I'll probably just go with a cream color.

Morris 36

http://www.morrisyachts.com/images/morris36.jpg

commanderpete

05-10-2005, 08:54 AM

Time to paint the spars. I'm doing the mast, two booms, spreaders, brackets and my homemade whisker pole.

There's also a spare mast on the ground there, but I'm not painting that. Might be a flagpole someday.

You'll want to set things up better than this inconvenient arrangement here

commanderpete

05-10-2005, 08:56 AM

The mast looked O.K., except for the lower few feet. Booms were pretty corroded

commanderpete

05-10-2005, 09:00 AM

First I had to remove the hardware on the mast and booms. Some parts aren't worth the effort to remove, like the sail track. I left the small cleats on too.

I filled small holes I wasn't going to need with JB Weld.

The day before painting I washed everything with degreaser.

I'll be using these products for the painting

commanderpete

05-10-2005, 09:03 AM

That's PPG aluminum etch cleaner

Then PPG aluminum conditioner

Both of these are available at an auto body supply house for $12.99 a quart

Then Interlux 404 Epoxy Primekote

Then Interlux Perfection LPU in Oyster White.

You also need the Interlux brushing thineer 233N

This place had the cheapest prices on Interlux paints

http://www.boatersland.com/interlux.html

commanderpete

05-10-2005, 09:13 AM

Now comes painting day. Aluminum begins to form an oxidized surface soon after you start attacking it, so you need to go through each step and get to the painting stage in rapid succession.

I sanded everything to shiny metal with 36 grit. This took longer than I expected--about 5 hours. Hosed it all off.

Next I scrubbed it with aluminum etch cleaner and rinsed.

Then the conditioner. This product was supposed to turn the metal a golden color, which it didn't. Freaked me out. I tried leaving it on longer, or giving it two coats. Didn't really change color much. Maybe the metal is supposed to be dry when you apply it. I'll hope for the best.

I needed to dry everything and get the paint on right away.

Laid on a coat of epoxy primer. One quart covered it. Kinda rushed through the painting at the end of a long day, which means extra sanding.

I'm debating whether to give it some more primer, since the first coat didn't quite fill the pitted areas. Then comes the top coats. Hoping for decent weather this weekend

Not much to look at yet

Theis

05-10-2005, 08:30 PM

Yeah, I've done it. It is beautiful and has largely remained so. However a couple points.

You don't use epoxy primer on the aluminum. You have to use aluminum primer. That etches into the aluminum, and provides the base for the paint primer. Interthane Plus, as I recall, has its own primer. Interthane Plus (which I used) is also obsolete now. Interlux has a new paint that allegedly does not have the defects of Interthane Plus (and there are defects - and those defects tick me off). The paint primer has to go on an hour or so after the aluminum primer goes on (as I recall). For the spars you do need a very tough paint (like Interthane Plus or Awlgrip) because of lines and metal things that bang and rub against it. Do not use softer Interthane Brightside or its Pettit equivalent even though they are easier to apply and cheaper.

Make sure you take all fittings off the mast before you paint. If you are going to do it, do it right.

All screws you return to the mast must be coated with anti corrosion cream. Otherwise you are in for a never ending battle with chemical reaction between the aluminum and the stainless steel screws/bolts. Without the cream, the screws will freeze to the threads. The threads will become corroded, and eventually the threads in the mast will break loose.

Put all electrical wires inside the mast into a PVC pipe, 1 1/4 or 1/1/2 ID. That keeps the wires from banging around and, if you have an internal halyard, keeps the halyard from rubbing against any of the wires.. Secure the pipe to the side of the mast with aluminum rivets (I used six, two near the base of the pipe, two in the center 10' up, and two at the top (20'). Do not use screws, because the threads in the PVC will pop eventually, and you'll have a pipe banging inside your mast.

Screw the sail track using the existing #8 screws (as I recall the size). If they are stripped, you can go up to #10 and the sliders will still go over the screw head. Use the #10 screws regardless at the bottom of the sail track because the end takes an inordinate amount of force where those first two or three screws are located. And don't forget the anti corrosion cream.

Pay particular attention to the screws that hold the mast head casting on to the mast, and that hold the forestay bracket. The originals did not have the anti corrosion cream and the 1/4 bolts did not hold tight. I replaced them with 1/4" bolts tightened with lockwashers and nuts on the mast interior.

When you do this, you might want to increase the lights on the mast - such as putting on a mast head light, and a foredeck down light. Forespar makes a great combination fitting downlight (one end pointing down) and a 3/4 height mastlight, 120 degrees, subsstitute for the Pearson (Perko) light that goes where the original Perko 3/4 mast head light went.

Also, now is the time to rework the antenna wire, and any masthead instrument wires as well.

commanderpete

05-11-2005, 09:44 AM

Well, there's a few ways to skin this cat

Awlgrip describes several methods, and there are others

http://www.awlgrip.com/pages/app_guide/chap2.htm#ALUMINUM

I don't believe you would use a self-etching primer if you've already chemically etched the metal.

As far as the mast track goes, removing that failed my cost/benefit analysis.

Of course, most people tell me painting the mast isn't worth the effort either.

Theis

05-11-2005, 07:00 PM

Whenever you see a coated mast with chipped paint, you know that whomever did it did not put on the bright yellow Zinc Chromate (I think that is the correct compound -) primer. Paint doesn't chip with that stuff on.

As for painting, it does make it look better, particularly if you have screw holes that have been filled in and if your mast was like mine - weathered. It makes the whole rig look a lot spiffier, IMHO.

commanderpete

08-04-2005, 07:57 AM

It was a bit of work, but the mast came out looking good.

Does make the boat look spiffy

commanderpete

08-04-2005, 08:14 AM

Somehow I thought the job was going to be more fun

mbd

08-04-2005, 08:19 AM

Now, how about REAL pictures of your newly painted mast, CP? Or are you too busy sailing your little melonseed gal? :D

commanderpete

08-05-2005, 07:22 AM

This job would have been easier if I knew how to use a spray gun. Otherwise you have to sand it perfectly smooth between coats, by hand. And you have to wait for weather windows.

commanderpete

08-05-2005, 07:24 AM

The Interlux Perfection LPU is good stuff. Levels nicely after brushing.

commanderpete

08-05-2005, 07:25 AM

Oyster White color is pretty much just white

commanderpete

08-05-2005, 07:27 AM

Pictures aren't great. But it does look like porcelain

mbd

08-05-2005, 07:38 AM

Damn, Pete! Very very VERY nice![B]

CapnK

08-05-2005, 09:10 AM

Damn, Pete! Very very VERY nice!

Ditto, C'pete! Great job!

Tony G

08-05-2005, 05:32 PM

I agree. Those pictures and them words are what I was waiting for. It's high time we paint a mast and boom around here!

P.s. Is that a bunch of new gear on the cabin top? I don't recall seeing that stuff on some of my other photos of Grace.

commanderpete

08-06-2005, 02:37 AM

Yeah, I'm still adding a bunch of lines and deck hardware bling-bling. I'll post a write-up one of these days.

Learning how to handle all these ropes is not that important. Just need to look good doing it.

Got me a credit card. Good to go.

Tony G

08-06-2005, 07:07 AM

What on earth is that guy doing?

Write up!?! We're still waiting for the rub rail tale. I'm hoping to be 'applying' ours shortly and I need a heads up from your experience :D

Gawd, I can't wait to sail again.....

ebb

08-06-2005, 07:19 AM

S m o o o o t h creeamy paint job!
Natural and organic.
Weird looking chick there tho, C'pete. (#42)
But your choice of jib furler sailers (post #33) makes up for it. She has a nice bucket!

The spars look absolutely gorgeous. Going sailing?
Or are you out on the Bay in one of your other yachts? :cool:

commanderpete

08-08-2005, 07:31 AM

Grace will always be # 1.

I will no longer encourage this renovation activity. Only a lunatic would add rubrails. Another 52 feet of wood to varnish. Sick Sick Sick

Did you notice my dinghy in the backgound of pictures 24 & 28? Needs work...so sad and neglected....

Save yourself

SkipperJer

08-08-2005, 12:00 PM

A picture of a the tried and true impact driver is attached. It's got nothing to do with an air compressor and a lot to do with swinging a hammer with care. It redirects downward force into rotation through banging on that massive handle. It works better on screws of substantial size. Small ones tend to get buried deeper in aluminum as I can attest from experience. I just drill those out and upsize the fastener.

Make sure the bit fits firmly in the slot of the screw. If its loose it just bungs up the metal or slips out causing foul language and excessive drinking. I got mine from J.C. Whitney.

Rico

10-07-2007, 08:03 PM

Ok... Every single reference I found talkes about SCREWS for the sailtrack on the mast....

(Sorry to remind many of you of this ardous business of painiting spars...)

But how come all I see on my mast sail track are Aluminum rivets??? About 20-30 of the total 110 of them should be replaced too...

Have your rivets been replaced with screws, or have my screws been replaced with rivets!

ebb

10-08-2007, 06:24 AM

Be great to get something SOLID on this.

See masts in the yard with what looks like aluminum rivets. They are frowned on by all authoritys (except Brion Toss of all people!) I have seen because the aluminum rivet would be a different alloy than the spar and the small size of the fastening would make it likely to corrode. A s.s. rivet is unlikely to corrode in an aluminum spar - while an aluminum rivet more likey to - so it is said.

I have someone's mast next to Little Gull that is being stripped: mast track and mast steps all popriveted with stem included. No corrosion evident. and every rivet sheered. IE the top was touched carefully with a drill bit and the fitting pryed off leaving the rivet to be punched out.

However it is impossible to tell whether they are aluminum or stainlees or monel.

If you decide on pop-rivets, the bigger the size (3/16 on up) the more difficult the install. S.S. and monel rivets are harder and stronger materials and will require a bigger long handled tool to beg or buy. 1/4" rivets may require a hydrolic tool.
You need marine aluminum rivets (5000-6000 series) not homedepot stuff. Also if you are using closed rivets, the mandrel is a concern, as very often the stem is plain steel. Marine aluminum blind rivets will probably have a s.s. stem or even aluminum. MacMasterCarr rather than JamestownDist is probably the source for poprivets. They will tell you what the alloys are and give you more choices, altho they are NOT marine specific. Don't use 18-8 fasteners on your boat, for-crying-out-loud!!!

Imco, in the heavy wall mast we have, machine screws in a threaded hole, not sheet metal screws!, are probably the best way to upgrade. At least you can assure yerself of the material you are using. The most passive s.s. (316L) is the way I will go, if you can find the stuff.

Isolation and lube -

ANY fastener (including aluminum) in aluminum spars has to be isolated. Anhydrous lanolin which used to be available from the pharmacy - LanoCote (WM - Forespar distributes it now) - Alumalast (anybody used this?) - and TefGel (has Teflon in it) are all barrier goops used to isolate fastenings. Lanolin, sheep wool fat, has traditionally been used to keep water OUT of larger fastenings like turnbuckles and shackles. Every cruising source since Slocum speaks well of it. TefGel comes in nice tidy tiny tubes making it easier to put the stuff where you want it.
{LanoCote grease comes in jars, 7oz spray and 4oz tube. It can specifically be used for stainless screws to aluminum, along with more traditional uses including battery terminals. The ANHYDROUS lanoline from the drug store is most likely pretty pure and usable for your skin - and battery terminals. Some have tried it on their propshafts and propellers. Have heard that it can run out of where you put it if it gets real hot. Be good to know if LanoCote gets runny when it heats up.....}
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
Let me add here that SuperLube makes a white synthetic grease that is potable water certified. McMCarr also lists a high temp synthetic and a NSF-61 certified. My understanding is that you are not dealing with a petroleum product using these. I haven't used these BUT it would be great to find something that would lube pumps, not eat up plastic valves and O-rings and still be good on your mast and anchor shackle!;)

mrgnstrn

10-09-2007, 08:02 AM

C-Pete,

So, after 2 years of use, how is the mast paint holding up?
Still shiney? Any places where it's not sticking and flaking off?

I am going to have to paint the mast on the C&C sometime in the next few years. Any pointers (do's, don'ts)?

..for those who are counting, that is 53' feet of mast, and 14 feet of boom to deal with on the C&C..anybody wanna help?

mbd

10-09-2007, 09:23 AM

..for those who are counting, that is 53' feet of mast, and 14 feet of boom to deal with on the C&C..anybody wanna help?Heh! Now if only you'd kept your more maintenance-friendly Ariel, Keith... :D

commanderpete

10-09-2007, 10:06 AM

The job is sort of a science project, so you need to do a bit of research. I might look into using the Vinyl-Lux Primewash Interlux is making.

If I had to do it over again, I would learn how to use a spray gun. Lay down one coat after another.

The paint is holding up beautifully.

This is my happy face

Rico

10-09-2007, 08:28 PM

Thank you Ebb...

I will do a bit of a test with the screws; If nothing else, to avoid riveting... I will remember the goop.

I may leave the ones that in good shape alone... BUT I guess I'll decide that as I start the job.

What about holding power? Will the screw develop as much holding power as the rivet?? Hmmm...

mrgnstrn

10-10-2007, 08:38 AM

Heh! Now if only you'd kept your more maintenance-friendly Ariel, Keith... :D

Yeah, if only I could have kept the maintenance of the Ariel and had the space and speed of the C&C.

...Compromises all around.....

tpalmer

05-28-2008, 11:48 AM

I'm ordering a new mast from Dwyer aluminum. The size of the old mast is 3 1/2 x 6. In the manual the size is listed as 5 1/2 x 7. Dwyer has one that is 3.6 x 5.6 @ $45 /sq ft and another, 4.80 x 7.30 @ $70 / sq ft. How much variation do I have on picking a mast size? what are the pro and cons?

Bill

05-28-2008, 12:37 PM

The Ariel mast is the same as the mast on the 28' Triton and therefore probably way more than a 26' boat requires. IMHO, the 3.6 x 5.6 is probably more than adequate. Of course, if you are planning a round the world cruise, go for the 3.6 x 5.6 :cool:

ebb

05-28-2008, 03:44 PM

Interesting.
The mast on (well, not ON yet) 338 is 3.5 X 6 and

a full 1/8" thick extrusion.
The 1/8" is the PRO for this cruiser to be.

It has a very handsome rounded 'teardrop' cross-section. That is the front is rounder and the aft side skinnier, as in a generalized wing or foil shape.

The aft edge is flat where the T track for the sail is attached. It's 5/8" across and has 7/8" wide s.s. track on it. There are no internal extrusion shapes.

It's a MAST.
Can't see this mother buckling, even with the sails full of water.
What does Dwyer have? I've looked at their profiles. Only a few of their smaller ones have the profile similar to the Ariel's. Which one are you choosing?

Looked on the net for old mast graveyards, aren't any. Lien sales, parting outs, local yards. I know ours, where my boat lives, has a collection of spars and every so often a notice appears on the yard office door threatening to disappear them!

What happened to your old mast? carl231, currently on the Board, has a mast that the DFO cut a foot of it off before he sold it. Suggested tabernacling to make up the length - in an effort to save it. These are good old masts worth keeping.
Imco, as usual,

bill@ariel231

06-30-2008, 12:54 PM

ebb,

hmmm.. an interesting puzzle and thought experiment. the boat has a lot of righting moment with 2500# of lead on about a 3' to 3.5' moment arm. i'm not sure that a 29' mast filled with water is going to beat that (although it's worth trying to compute the relative righting moments).

keep in mind you'd need to keep the mast completely submerged for several minutes for the mast to fill completely with water (after all where will the air leak out?)

as for functionality, i've found stripping, cleaning and greasing my main halyard sheeve when ever the mast is pulled clears up any problems i've encountered.

cheers,
bill@ariel231

if you really want to address better righting moment, a carbon fiber spar may be in order... ;)

ebb

06-30-2008, 03:32 PM

Bill,
The pardey puzzle is not something that I thought to work out. The best way to find the weight of seawater in the mast is to stand it up on end, pour in one gallon of water (or a cubic foot if you have one around), lower a tape with a ball on the end until it hits the water inside, then read the feet left over, and do the calculations. Simple.

How to figure the weights viz the righting arm isn't a proposition my head can get around.
But suppose you're down, the sails are in the water, you've been over too long because the swells are big, and the sails are filling... The weight of water IN the mast in that scenario seems tiny compared to combined weights of water and wind in a dangerous situation. It is a matter of how quick the boat can recover - for instance how much water is getting below through the deck?

Suppose one large murphy swimming back to the boat finds the masthead and grabs on to it - would the boat right itself?
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Pulling maintenance on the sheave sounds like you have to be able to remove the S.S. bolt.
There is no inside tube spreader here. It may be better for the resistance of the s.s. bolt that it is not covered up inside. I notice that the nut side of the bolt in my mast has its threads riding in the hole. How do you insulate for that?
The upper shroud tangs are part of the action here along with major weight put in the formula with the halyard tension. This is one hard working bolt that goes through the masthead sheave that actually holds the mast up as well as the main sail. Hard working holes in the aluminum mast. The shroud tangs show a little hole egging as well.

The SLOT as it is won't have any trouble displacing air and gulping water, imco. Also a serious knockdown might include the sail scooping water and thereby help to keep the boat over. Any scenario is murphy.

The sheave box can be redesigned to have a top and bottom which it doesn't have now - and that would take care of the major water port. The hole can be shut. Then it is a matter of what electrics have to exit the mast for lights and antenna for a fairly water resistant masthead. It this possible?

Better to leave well enough alone on this one? Instead of obsoleting the old wire sheave, change it out for a rope one in a closed off box? I've located a few other corroding spots up top, so we'll see what we have disassembled. The after-the-sheave-freezed-up block tang fitting could maybe stay there and act as the back-up halyard - if the big sheave can be saved.

What really would be cool is to put this together so the bolt can easily be replaced! THAT would be excellent! Taking it apart right now is a federal case. Looking at the tangs and HOPING they're OK isn't something I'm OK with. I'd like to be able to take these major attachments apart again sometime without a grinder. Wishful thinking, huh?

A titanium bolt here in a delrin tube with insulated washers and a new phenolic or delrin or even aluminum sheave sized for 1/2" braid might be the ticket. We see how extensive the corrosion is around the holes.

The old sheave certainly must have had wire in it at one time. Easy to see is the trail of black scaring running down and fading as the distance grows from the sheave hole - like poop from a bird box. Can imagine the s.s. wire halyard gouged and rubbed this part of the mast at one time leaving the marks. That would mean the diameter of the sheave's wire run was smaller then the mast. Hope it is mostly marking and not a whole bunch of corrosion pitting in the old anodizing.:(

Bill

07-01-2008, 02:13 PM

But suppose you're down, the sails are in the water, you've been over too long because the swells are big, and the sails are filling... The weight of water IN the mast in that scenario seems tiny compared to combined weights of water and wind in a dangerous situation. It is a matter of how quick the boat can recover - for instance how much water is getting below through the deck? (

That would seem to be the answer. FWIW - Commanders and Ariels have sailed around the world without encountering the above hypothesized problem in righting the boat following a knockdown, or whatever. IMHO, if it were a problem, Zoltan and his Commander would never have arrived in the Med and we would have read a different story about his voyage from Los Angeles.:eek:

Masts filling with water, of course, can cause problems righting dingies, but the weight/volume of water to boat displacement is far different than that found in a 26 foot, full keel yacht. ;)

ebb

07-12-2008, 09:02 AM

OK. Taking the mast apart I discovered BAD corrosion above the main sheave slot where an aftermarket curved tang was fitted to hang a block for line halyard.
I believe the tang is fairly common, perhaps not the installation method on 338. Some kind of filler was used between the s.s tang and the mast. Where the filler was has eaten totally through the aluminum.

In a separate thread I strongly suggest nobody uses their mast's similar tang fitting to ascend.
338"s is totally compromised and the halyard could have at any moment been pulled away from the mast! The s.s screws were crystallized.

For redundant safety (the halyard going through the mast) the large main halyard sheave could be remade with a rope groove and used for the #1 halyard.
I would like to rig another halyard (or two) as the back up. May have to custom a tang fitting that includes the repair to the top of the mast. Anyone???

There is plenty of meat (1/8") throughout the extrusion for common machine screws to gain thread enough to hold well. That's imco. What I did notice in taking screws out is that the best holding fasteners were 8-32, 10-24 and 12-24. If I have 1/4" fastners I will use 1/4-28 to get more thread on the mast wall. There are posters who say always use the finer threads.
Sheet metal screws were used in places for incidental eyes and small blocks. The Hitachi cordless impact driver worked well to back these out and some strange very coarse thread small machine screws.
While the 'normal' screws backed out like they should, the oddball ones held at first until freed by the impact driver and THEN SUDDENLY LET GO. This is because the holes were not tapped.
DO NOT USE SHEET METAL SCREWS ON THE MAST. Or straight panhead screws. Right, they are used for sheetmetal and woodwork.

The white aluminum oxide* plays a big role in freezing fastenings. I believe all fastenings in this project have oxide at the interface. The least amount is with the more precise machine screw and tapped hole. Of course with tef-gel - but no remaining indication of an anti-seize was found on 338's mast.

Nearly all the aluminum cleats at the deck end were through cut with a carborundum blade isolating the fasteners which were then successfully turned out of their holes using the chunk of aluminum they were embedded in. I think the oxide in the relatively long bury in the cleats keeps the screw from turning. There is at this point to see NO CORROSION where the fittings bear on the mast nor in the tapped holes.
All cleats were held on with two fastenings and seemed completely tight.
It was hard to accept cutting through these very handsome aluminum mast fittings - as they were, except for their protective oxide surface, unaffected by time and tide.

I used Alumiprep 33, Gibbs Penetrating Oil, PB Blaster, Freeze Off, Mapp Gas, and Whacking 101 in attempts to loosen screws. I don't believe any of this actually penetrated. What did work on short fastenings was the Hitachi.

The mast track appears free of any aluminum oxide*. What appears to be bronze track (because of its patina) was laid down on what appears to be black plastic tape, and fastened with (#6-32 ?) s.s. phillips head screws.
As I say, the aluminum seems happiest with nicely fine thread tapped holes and stainless steel machine screws. The track looks very secure. B.Toss in a post on his forum mentions using UHMW (polyethylene) tape under fittings. May do the same.

Fixing the corrosion on the top of the slot seems like a job for some added aluminum sheet. The top of the mast is a hard working zone. Some rumination is required for procedure. Hope there's input on this.
The single 1/2" bolt holes show "MILD" corrosion under the tangs. There is/was oxide crust buildup around both very hard working holes. Slight, slight elongation on the downside. The bolt shank did not go all the way through the mast befor the nut thread. The hole on the side of the bolt threads IS slightly larger.

I'm wondering if a custom bolt could be made from solid rod with the ends threaded in precisely to allow the tangs also to hang on smooth metal. Nuts could be the castellated type (which tightens when threaded on the bolt end) or the bolt might be cotter-pinned on the outside of the nuts - like you see on bolt shackles. I always wonder why the nut itself cannot be through drilled and cotter pinned? That's what I'd like to do - unless somebody objects?
A bolt to me is a kind of clamp. There is no clamping needed up top, just a lot of good shear bearing surfaces. Come back on this?
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________________
We have nicely shaped tangs for the shrouds. While they all look OK, the uppers look more worked and were against oxide crust. Stainless has a rep of looking good until it just lets go. I think Prudence wants them replaced.
Is there a source? Most of RigRite and Dwyer look like strapping - and they don't say what the material OR the gauge is......

The originals are slightly truncated in their length, wider at the top than the bottom. They are 13 gauge I believe, all rigging holes look great except slight wear mentioned above.
I'm moving up to 1/4" wire - maybe something like 10 gauge is called for. YES?
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Years later EDIT 1/2012)
*aluminum oxide (AL-230) is what forms on new clean bare aluminum. Aluminum hydroxide is the poultice - white powdery stuff. Chloride ions causes the location pH to become more acidic which enhances corrosion because aluminum ions are positively charged which increases the 'battery' effect.
Salt water is the culprit, along with dirt or anything that 'limits the migration of oxygen.' It's a fairly complicated subject made comprehensible at:
http://marginalmaritimeadvice.blogspot.com/2011/03/poultice-corrosion_5740.html
The BEST three page aluminum corrosion specific paper I've read yet. Thanks, John.
Marginal Maritime Advice: Poultice Corrosion

Tim D.

07-12-2008, 03:55 PM

Ebb, I have not had time yet to look closely at mine now that it is down. I did notice the same setup on the track, and I have blocks hanging from an add on tang also that does not look original (or at least the way I would hope that it would be).

ebb

07-12-2008, 05:38 PM

Hey Tim.
I guess it's a decision whether the mast gets painted or not, right?

None of the aluminum fittings on 338's mast were radiused to match the mast curve. That left some tight spaces for stuff to collect, and it did.
But after removal the naked spots under the legs of the fitting were like brand spanking new, with a dime or a quarter sized bling of anodize showing - like the day they were screwed on.
I haven't forensic-ed the threaded screw shanks in the wasted aluminum chunks - but I guess there is some white powder in there.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________

Tim, ANY observations you have will be welcomed.
Photos especially.:cool:

Commander227

07-13-2008, 03:19 PM

Today, just before a casual race in winds gusting to 30 knots, I decided to replace the port upper turnbuckle as I had found one to replace a mis-matched one. As soon as I had the stay loose enough to remove the turnbuckle the spreader just fell off the mast. The Spreader fitting had broken between the spreader and the upper and lower attach bolts. the tension on the stay had been keeping the spreader trapped between the two broken off ears. Who knows how long ago it broke. What luck to discover such a failure at the dock instead of having the spreader pop out during a tack. Inspection of the broken parts showed what appears to be intergranular corrosion. I had inspected the rig about a month ago when I stepped the mast and had missed it. I robbed a fitting from an old P-26 mast I have around the yard,(They use the same fitting and the masts would make an excellent substitute) popped it on and quickly re-tuned, but alas missed the first gun. I would recommend close inspection of the fittings next time ya'll drop your rig.

ebb

07-14-2008, 07:55 AM

That's AMAZING.
That's the trouble with cast aluminum.
Would think that the fittings do little more work than hold the spreaders in the right place and position.

Are the through-bolt holes elongated on your mast?
Showing perhaps that the lowers were over loaded and pulled the fitting apart?
Seems unlikely.
If only one is broken like this, maybe the boat had a one side spreader accident in its past?

The spreader fittings I took off of 338's mast were very crudely bedded with black epoxy goop. (Carbon is added to epoxy for UV protection. It is at the wrong end of the galvanic scale to aluminum - so the absence of corrosion is a mystery.) The reason for this is that they are not faired to the curve of the mast. Which should have been done instead of using easy poxy. An oscillating spindle sander is made for the job.

If you had flat bottom fittings on the curved mast, that means most of the fitting is unsupported - unless something hard like black epoxy bondo was used to sculpt a HARD bearing surface. Don't think rubber would work.
An unsupported fitting obviously might be broken by some stress on it or other.

You have another replacement. I'm wondering if renovating these fittings would included having them anodized? Or painted with LPU, or even powder coated?

Pointed out above: Some bedding compounds used on 338's mast caused SERIOUS corrosion. They are white and may have some metallic base like lead, I don't know. Generally, ALL fittings show some corrosion - some little crusting or activity - where they are attached, sometimes very little. Some aluminum to aluminum had a pristine patch of original anodize on the bearing surface. How do we know what these were mounted with if anything.

The only thing that seems to have worked is the 'electric tape' separator under the mainsail track. The ultimate trick for reducing galvanics may not be any goop but fairly FITTED BEARING SURFACE with a separator like modern HDPE polyethylene tape. Fine rather than coarse threaded machine screws in correctly tapped holes with tefgel or lanoline.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Have not been able to locate B.Toss' HDPE polyethylene tape. There is a lot of tapes out there. This seemed important enough to find. Managed to locate a UHMW p. tape which has weatherability - but not researched by self.
(Google seems to be becoming more and more useless for product search - it's lost its target finesse, if it can be put that way. Used to get a shotgun pellet spread on a subject - now google just seems to wander off.)

The very slick ultra high molecular weight tape is used for exterior aps on vehicles and in extreme industrial environs where slipperiness is required. Available from McMasterCarr - 7344A42. Peel-and-stick one side. Some come two-sided. It is translucent rather than gray or black as you might expect it. ????

Have to question the provenance here - I'm a bit uncomfortable using a tape on the mast whose main claim is its extreme low surface energy.;)

ebb

07-15-2008, 01:43 PM

Aluminum like s.s. needs "free access" to air, to oxygen, to help prevent corrosion by forming a protective oxide layer.
Welding parts onto a new aluminum mast is the best way. But not recommended to old aluminum. Not sure why. Maybe because it takes an expert to weld the stuff properly. On altering the base for masting (lowering) on 338's mast which will require rounding part of the bottom and adding a plate to fit the new shape: Ballenger Spars said, Weld It.
The problem is crevis corrosion, called that by Kasten, any time you place aluminum on aluminum, or wood to it, or even plastic on it - unless it's welded you have made the condition for crevis corrosion - because salt water can wick under the addition.

Here is Kasten's recommendation for adding stuff to the mast:
Roughen the mast surface by grinding.
Degrease with a solvent (leave no fingerprints)
Apply Alodine. (I get my Alodine and Alumiprep from Aircraft Spruce.)
Apply epoxy paint. (Not without a system primer imco)
Add a plastic isolator under the part. K. recommends micarta and pvc, not mentioning polyethylene. Doesn't like electric tape (black vinyl) because it stretches.

Isolate parts further with adhesive caulk. K. mentions Sikaflex, 5200, BoatLife.
(on a mast I would use LifeSeal or another silicone/urethane hybrid because of their long life flexibility, temp range and adhesion life.) But it's your choice.
Anodizing does not prevent crevis corrosion.
(The implication here is that if you have a new anodized mast you have to destroy the coating in those places where you are adding something.
Where s.s fastenings must be removed use "never seize"* But don't use a product with graphite or copper in it. Zinc formulations and Teflon are OK.
Think a product without metal should be considered. And I've heard Teflon (Tefgel) implicated in corrosion, but that is hearsay.) K. recommends anhydrous lanoline for THREADS only.
(None of these are thread locks which are acrylics of various holding strengths used to keep screws and nuts in place. Not considered by Kasten.)

Almag 35 is marine grade cast aluminum. I'll bet it'll be hard to find mast cleats with this designation. My understanding is that it's kissing cousin to the extrusion our masts are made with. see Perko's marinium line. The cast aluminum on the Ariel supposedly were made with this alloy.

Swage fittings eventually throw rust, which throws suspicion on them. Why use a stainless fitting that promotes rust or use any stainless that will? Use only 316L on the exterior of the boat.
(Never use 18-8 or 304 or '300 series' on the mast, even if Jamestown says it's OK or if off-the-shelf products say they are made for it. If there are no numbers on the stainless avoid the stuff.)
And welded fittings in stainless grades with higher carbon than 316 become real problems because carbon in the form of carbides will collect along the weldline and failure will occur there.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
*"never seize" exists in various formulations from Permatex. "Never-Seez' in a blue can labeled Mariner's Choice, for instance: the material contains copper flakes, graphite, and aluminum paste. Sounds like this stuff will really crank your mast. There appears to be NO 'Never-Seez' product specific to screwing stainless steel fasteners into aluminum.
There are Permatex ThreadLockers. Blue is a medium strength acrylic material that allows non-destructive hand disassembly. Whether there is choice here, I'm not sure - threadlock maynot be good at dissimilar metal isolating.. Anybody know?
Woolfat is my choice.
However with the above elaborate chinese firedrill of adding a cleat to the mast, most of us will drive the machine screws in through wet caulk. IE, LifeSeal may be a good isolator. I'm sure this is done, but I've not found a source for this as practice. ???
www.kastenmarine.com

ebb

07-17-2008, 07:18 AM

may not be readily available.
[Available from Hamilton Marine - Duralac (British import) $36.99, about 4oz]
Contrary to what Kasten sez, this "zinc formulation" should not be used to isolate stainless and aluminum on the mast! According to Storrar* it will cause Mast Rash.

The weathered hard white material that caused corrosion on 338's mast may have been this stuff or a putty version of it. If I understand Storrar correctly.

Best rule may be: Use no material to isolate metals from each other that has any form of metal in it.

Now THAT brings into question the zinc chromate layer in the mast painting regimen.
I believe AwlGrip uses a STRONTIUM chromate interim coating, whatever the hell that is.

*
www.storrarmarine.co.uk/Storrar20Marine%20Newsletter.pdf
google title: Storrar Marine
type into google port: Storrar Marine Newsletter July 2008
(it should come up)

Zinc chromate as a paste or putty just does not exist in the public sphere anymore.
The Duralac product mentioned seems to be considered a substitute for it -
but it does not have zinc in it.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________________________
Naturally I had to look uo Duralac
...Jointing Compound DTD369B. There may be, unbeknownst to me, a dozen Duralacs. This one has no zinc in it (so that assumption by Storrar is incorrect), instead is made with barium chromate in a lacquer base and an inert filler. Lacquer means VOCs.

"..it is essential that the points of contact should be treated with corrosion inhibiting materials because in the presence of electrolytes considerable difference of potential arise, not only where different metals are in contact, but also where components of the same metal under different stresses are in contact: for example as between the aluminum plates or extrusions and rivets or bolts used in building up the structure..."

There is a strong suggestion in this (edited) Duralac technical statement that the material is made for recommisioning Little Gull's ancient mast.
There may be a typo in the Storrar statement or may have British coloquilisms I don't know how to read. That is: his statement NOT to use "zinc chromate" on the mast.

If you are convinced that forking over $10 an ounce for this goop will DE-ELECTROLYTE your mast from its cleats and eye straps for years of benevolent neglect, go for it.
I'm convinced that total isolation of different alloys is the key. A physical barrier of an inert plastic also included. But more important is the caulk, glue, goop, paste. If the isolating barrier breaks down and the "treatment" leaches away in weather and our sodium chloride environment and allows differences in potential to rear up again.... then we have to use the best caulk/adhesive available.
Don't think Duralac will remain flexible over time. ("Jointing compound" also assumes close fitting pieces - not usually the case with mast appendages.) "Corrosion inhibiting" to me is something that will stick til kingdomcome. Synthetic rubber has to stick so well that no moisture can EVER wick under it! Abrade the hell out of both interfacing metals - maybe not with a grinder! For Kasten, adhesion is the key. 5200 and polysulfide both get hard after awhile in ozone, UV, and heat, so I'm going with the hybrid - which also advertises it's willingness to adhere to all kinds of surfaces without priming and always stay flexible. Good signs.

Don't know who to believe: marine architect, marine yard owner, or manufacturer hype. The whole net seems to suffer from EXPERTOSIS. Forumilytes? Something...
Opinions - anyone?

grindel

06-11-2009, 01:00 PM

hello.
last week y had broken the base of the spreader i think it is not possible to repear there is a lot of crack and very oxidized.
someone there has already replaced this piece?
and what is the solution.
thank you

Bill

06-11-2009, 02:00 PM

Grindel,

Searching using "Spreader Base" you will find several discussions. The most recent source for spreader bases (2005) is:

D&R Marine, 14 Water St.
Assonet, MA. 02702 USA
508-644-3001

grindel

06-13-2009, 06:42 AM

thank you
i think i found the spreader base in the site of D&R Marine
i am waiting for dimention and how too do pay and if they can send it to france.

carl291

06-13-2009, 12:19 PM

Someone here has two beautiful replacements made out of Stainless steel and has photos ( I can't locate right now). Claimed they were on the boat when purchased.
If I can remember looked to be 1/4" thick plate sheared to the same dimension, bent to conform to mast and the had Stainless round tubing welded on for sockets for spreaders.
I also have a broken one, after 40+ years I think they have served their life expectancy and will use my one good one to copy in stainless

carl291

06-13-2009, 12:42 PM

look here: Memphisto Cat 155 thread, post 92, for photos of bases in stainless

grindel

06-14-2009, 01:47 PM

if D&R Marine sold the original part i prefer
but i certainely use the assembly of mephisto cat whit the pipe to avoid to compress the mast when tighten the nuts. when i had broken my spreader base its my mistake.
the wind grow slowly 0 to 25 knots and i was run genoa whit pole one side mainsail on the other side when i decide to late (1 mistake) to remove the genoa pole i gybe to remove the wind of the genoa, i put the autopilot ( i was alone ). and when strore it the boat gybe alone. i had no vang on the boat ( 2 mistake) the boom raise up and the mainsail roll up aroud the shroud upstair the spreader, i roll the genoa, and i try to unroll the mainsail aroud the shroud i can't. i go wind ahead the and the spreader come whit the main sail. i think its natural she break in this case.
a good point is i cant Stiffen the shroud whitout the spreader whit the original, (in french) "ridoir". I just came to grease them. and come to the harbor

jshisha

10-30-2010, 08:57 PM

After painting hull and topsides of Commander 131 the mast is looking really sad. I have read the threads about awgriping the mast, but has anyone explored simply sending it out to get reanodized?

commanderpete

11-06-2010, 06:13 PM

I think the problem with re-anodizing is finding a place with a big enough tank to fit the mast. Then you might have to pay to tranport the mast back and forth.

To get a good paint job, it really helps to remove all the hardware on the mast and boom. Maybe if you re-anodize, you might not have to remove all the aluminum/marinium hardware beforehand (the cleats and end castings). I'm not sure what the process would do to the mast track.

ebb

10-29-2011, 10:46 AM

So I was advised NOT to do it - but couldn't help myself.
Took the cordless Hitatchi hammer drill and backed out the 104 screws that hold the track on the mast.
Broke 17 of the buggers. All have white poultice (just discovered that word) in the threads, but also most of the 5/8" coarse thread #8 machine screws still have sharp threads. These RHMS look like they are specially designed to attach sailtrack to aliminum. But the wide apart threads would only work in a mast as thick walled as ours.
Imco I did right by taking it off. There would be any guessing now. But is this cost conscious?

Between the track and the mast there was a strip of black plastic tape, quite thin, but still strong. It obviously had been adhered as one sided tape to the mast. The glue long gone.
The mast track fastening holes are 3" apart.

QUESTION: Is the stainless steel track still usefull?
There appears to be nothing wrong with it.
It has an overall bronze patina, which made me wonder. But it is obviously stamped or rolled metal that hasn't a thicker bronze metal look. The edges look kindof thin to me. But I don't have any new track to compare.

QUESTION. Is this the time to replace the track?

Internet 7/8" Shaefer track is more than $8 a foot! $30+ = $300
[bloody vendor is not interested in telling the buyer the spacing of the screw holes]
Then there's the screws, endstop ($44.51!), gate, etc.
What the gate is at the end of the track is a bent piece of metal sharing the last track screw. Extensive corrosion of the aluminum there because the moving metal could not be isolated.
QUESTION. Has anyone figured that out?

There is also a separate 18" long piece of what looks like 7/8" extruded aluminum track that is attached 4" below the gate. It's on the track flat.
QUESTION. What is that for?

The track that came off the mast is a single piece.
Definitely think that putting new track on in pieces is asking for trouble.
I don't even have to ask for it, know it will happen!

Instead of revitalizing the existing fastener holes, maybe the thing to do would be to drill them out clean and fill them with LabMetal.
Then jog the track up 3/4" and drill in brand new holes? Seems easy.
That's a QUESTION too.
Does anybody see a problem what that? Moving the track UP or DOWN, does that make something bad happen with the sail?

I noticed on Lackey's Triton 381 site that he installed TidesMarine StrongTrack.
I assume it uses the existing track to hold it on. Yes?
Anyway in looking around the net, it came up on a cruisersforum where a guy who installed it on a customer's boat found it cracking after "about 10 years" on the mast.
StrongTrack is plastic of some sort.
What the upgrade does is change the original 'male' track to 'female', as the StrongTrack is a groove system.
Does this make any difference to the sails (more pricey slides?) sailing, hoisting, or reefing? It is also expensive. Anybody using this? What is gained?

There will never be another time when a change or an upgrade will be made on this mast. By me.
Feed back would be fabulous! Thanks.

Tony G

10-29-2011, 11:53 AM

Ah, here is the mast issues.

I think you would be miles ahead to reuse your existing sail track. It's there, it's one piece made to fit for your mast. Filling the holes would be a good move if you slide the track up or down a bit because you want to get to new metal under it. What about removing just enough material to allow you to switch to machine threaded screws for the increased surface area? I have read of several people switching spar fasteners to machine thread for the increased surface area. I personally think our spars are just fine as far as attacments go because they are so heavily constructed relative to our boat. Arguably there is less surface area in the SM screws but it seems to be a moot point. It seems we should be more critical of our cast aluminum fittings instead of our fastenings.

The 18" track is for our OEM goose neck to slide on.

Yup, the Tides track slides right over our track and does exactly what you said. I personally hope that cracked track you refered to is a fluke and not the standard because I got one rolled up in the shop awaiting installation. The sail slides and batten cars were a fraction of the cost of some of the other systems we looked at. At the time, Joe Cooper at Hood was pleased with the Tides sysem and scored us a discount as part of the package price of a new set of sails. I don't have any personal experience with the Tides system other than moving it from one shop to another. I did ask Tim Lackey a bunch of questions before I got one and he spoke highly of it.

Forgot to mention it is made of UHMW plastic and the slides are stainless. The batten cars are stainless slides too. There is supposed to be considerably less friction travelling up AND down for the mainsail. Several people have claimed they no longer have to head-up to reef the main. I'm all about less stress though...

Commander 147

10-29-2011, 01:40 PM

Ebb and Tony G

Looks like several of us are headed generally in the same direction as far as the Tides Marine sail track. I've been reading everything I could find recently on the half dozen or so differant versions of similar products out there and when it comes to bang for the buck I keep coming back to Tides Marine. I have read that the track will degrade over time and 10 years is about the time I have read that you might want to consider replacing the track. The track itself is I believe less than half the cost of the system. So amoratized over a period of ten years it might cost you 40 to 50 bucks a year to maintain the system as far as the track goes. But all the reports I have read the people that use it really like it. Easier to get the sails up and down and since that is something you do at least once each way every time you go out it adds up to a pretty nice benefit. And the people who are going to build my new sails sell the system so I can get a reasonable deal on it with the sails.

Here is a video where someone is installing it on their mast.

http://sailmagazine.com/boatworks/installing_a_tides_marine_sail_track/

Rico

10-29-2011, 02:51 PM

Ebb,

I've gone through these mast track decisions and I am very happy to have kept the original track. You can see my decision process and how-to on the Mephisto Cat thread:
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1552-Commander-155-Mephisto-Cat

As far as the fasteners; after quite a bit of research, I went with SS Rivets to replace the original fasteners...

I race on a boat with the tides marine track insert and although it works ok, I am not at all tempted to do this to C-155...

Sorry I do not have time to elaborate further now, but I'll check back here later for any follow-up issues. I'd be happy to provide any insight on my end!

Commander227

10-30-2011, 07:31 AM

First... Tony... I am very worried about your still rolled up plastic track. I have never installed the Tide System however with other plastic luffs and CDI furlers I unroll them and set them in the sun the day I get them. Then roll them into one giant loop in the opposite direction and leave them that way for a day. Then I store them flat. I have received plastic luffs that have been rolled too long (like two months) and have not been able to get them good and straight. They take a set and are kinky when straightened. there are many different types of plastics and I won't pretend to know one from another but it seems like the type that would work well on a CDI would likely also be used for the Tide System.

IMHO:
1. Coffee made from yesterday's grounds is only slightly better than drinking straight water in the morning.
2. Unless the old tracks edges are sharpened by use and wear it will work just fine and continue to be a reliable method of attaching the sail to the mast. There is little friction with metal on metal and there is enough clearance and slop where salt or dirt build up will not gum up the works like plastic slugs in a sail slot. The slides should be stitched to the sail with webbing. If you use plastic or metal shackles you will over time rip our your grommets and prematurely age the sail. There is no good way of keeping them from binding and twisting when hoisting and dousing. Especially in a blow. The webbing does not mind twisting and cannot bind. My first thought would be to tap the existing holes up to 10-32 if there is enough clearance with the slides over the larger fastener heads. Other wise I see no downside to moving the track to drill new holes. I liken it to my old F150 with the single barrel carb on the straight 6 engine. Not fast. Not sexy. But reliable and easy to work on.
3. Tide System: People who have it seem satisfied and my distributers talk highly of it but i shied away from it for a couple of reasons. First, you are still relying on your existing track so you are not getting away from having to remove/reinstall it or getting away from any problems you may think there is with it. Plastic gets sticky and things do not like to slide over it when it gets dirty or gets gouged. You must keep cleaning and applying Sailkote or othe lubricants to keep it working smoothly. Not a huge deal to make some sort of scrubby or wipey thing to pull up and down with a halyard...but still. Plastic expands and contracts a lot with tempature. Plastic ages and gets brittle with years in the sun and elements. I also think it's kinda ugly.
4. I went with the Harken micro traveler track. I love it! It fits the mast great, looks sexy, allows me to spend even MORE money getting the Harken Batcar system on my next sail. what's not to like? Well...It's expensive....I spent about half of what you'll spend as I am in the fortunate position of buying wholesale and got it on clearance to boot. It works really smooth but I cannot say it is more reliable of requires less maintenance than the old track. But dudes...it is sexy.
I installed it with 8-32 machine screws and used some of the old track holes to pop rivet in a tube for a wire chase.

That's my view.

I am scrapping out an old quarter tonner that has a great mast of roughly diameter and wall thickness as the Commander.
It has a great welded up mast head fitting and really well built goose neck and spreader fittings. As it was keel stepped mast it is quite long. So I am going to build The Princess a new stick three maybe four feet taller. I'll leave the jib the same size so it will be fractional and the roller code zero will be mast head. Can't wait.

Mike C227

Tony G

10-30-2011, 08:59 AM

Thanks for the heads-up, Mike. Whether I like what I hear or not, the truth is a lot easier to deal with in the end. And I'll admit, every time I look at that box I cringe for the same reason you mention above. There will undoubtedly be some memory in that plastic and IF I can deminish it to a point where it is not a factor that will be a process. When I first got it I weighed the options of leaving it boxed or sliding it onto the mast which was sitting outside in full sun going through those very extreme temperature changes found in Northern MN. My hope is that the full-length support of the OEM track will provide enough "pull" to ease the process. I'm betting some low and long heat on the inside of the roll will be necessary. Let's just see if it is effective.. I have admitted under my breath we may have a new length of track but this time I'm going to wait until the mast is ready for it. It is the sad reality suffered and denied by many people that "my life gets in the way of my dreams."

You betcha, the price of the superior Harken system drove me to other alternatives. If price had not been as large a factor at the time I could have justified or rationalized choosing the Batcar system. But as you stated, you fully realize the benefit of wholesale pricing (and clearance pricing didn't hurt either). Ah the old Cost versus Value argument. Maybe one more thing I would do diffrently if I were making the choice today.

Mike, another modification to the princess??? Dude, you must lavish gifts upon Boo for her to be so understanding! If not, she must be the real Princess.

ebb

10-30-2011, 10:20 AM

Jerry, TRico, Mike, TonyG

Thanks guys mucho!
Mike, that 22mm (7/8") Harken CB track looks really nice! It is 1/2" tall with an indent base.
What kind of rivets do you use to mount that track?
Hole spacing in track is 4". But there is any spacing retrofit that will allow, I'm assuming, use of the original 3"??? Can't imagine how that works.
That track is half the price ($400) of the polyethylene StrongTrack.
Polyethylene is a happy plastic but like all thermos are going to age in the sun and heat.

The Harken track is aluminum. Would think there eventually would be some wear issues with that if the matching hardwear is stainless. There is alot of esoteric expensive stuff to buy to get that match. And the StrongTrack likewise.

So it looks like I should stay with the original antique track. The Shaefer seems vastly over priced. I'm only asking it to last another ten years or so, and I like the bronzey patina, which I've never noticed on stainless before.
May move and drill new because it's difficult to drill out broken screws, that's a lot of metal to ask a small cobalt bit to hole.
It's an easy upgrade to go to #10 RHMS and retap to fine thread. And certainly in theory like the screw fastener over the rivet. May use a sticky non melting butyl tape to caulk the long seam, so riveting would be problematic. Real seal.

My little yodamota voice tells me
I'm going out of the box painting the mast.
Will use the Alodine and Alumiprep 33 - BUT then go straight to the final coat (2 or 3) with a product called Aluthane - no epoxy primer. We'll see how smooth I get the metal after filling and sanding. If I do epoxy, it'll be with ShermanWilliams ProLine 4055 sandable. No chromates.
Aluthane is a thin alumnum filled urethane paint with what appears to be a good rep sticking to stuff (that urethanes ususally aren't known for.) However it doesn't coverup booboos. It's been around awhile and used successfully to overcoat crappy industrial iron alloys. (see epoxyproducts.com if interested. Found here a testimonial using it on AL spars, but nothing long term. Always like that, isn't it?)

I'm going to try an epoxy filled 'atomized aluminum' filled paste (Albin LabMetal from Caswell) to smooth my corroded and holey masthead. Have an idea to poprivet on a stainless collar (or headband actually) across the area on top of the sheave slot that corroded away - and now halfast filled with another repairmetal. And fill all the holes I can with it down to the bottom of the mast. All aluminum stuffing and gravey. Wonder if the Aluthane will bubble and squeek?
The mast will look galvanized I'm told when coated.

A far far cry from Rico's stripped top peppermint cane!!!:cool:

My first time doing this to a metal mast.
And will need all the help I can get out of you guys!:D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
Mike, Thanks for that tip on webbing factored into slide attachment.
Is there a BEST slide for our OEM track? Oil impregnated bronze? I think I noticed on a Harken info that the373/2720/2751 track uses 2" long s.s. slides, which, me thinks, would end up quite a tall stack.

Tony, Obviously I don't know the StrongTrack material like Mike does. He is probably correct that the material will take a set in its shipping carton when rolled up tight long term. Especially in a wide rage of Michigan temps. Your shop fotos show your mast on the wall.
If you have a clean surface INSIDE the mast, you could unroll and store the StrongTrack there.
If you can get it in there! I can imagine you will have a difficult time unrolling the plastic. It might even twist which you don't want. So you may have to wait for a very warm day. Putting it in the mast may over time allow it to relax to its former self enough
so as not to KINK when you eventually shove it onto the OEMT, as Mike points out.
TonyG, haven't checked back to yer fotos, but if you still have the old track on your mast,

why not get the StrongTrack on the mast NOW. No better place to store it!!!!

carl291

10-30-2011, 01:33 PM

Mike A taller stick may just be the hot setup. When I bought an Electra I missed getting the stick, which was a new dyer&dyer 30" taller with a roller furling. The owner let it go for $100.00. Anyway the PO who had installed the mast owned a sail loft and cut a set of sails to fit the new mast. He located me through the Electra registry and we sent a few EMs, he told me on a cruise his 5 day average was 175 miles/day, that's flying !! He also had the hull faired to where even the rudder grudgen strap was faired smooth .

Tony G

10-30-2011, 06:10 PM

why not get the StrongTrack on the mast NOW. No better place to store it!!!!

That's just what I did! I had to put this one to rest. This stuff is the most well behaved plastic I've ever had to work with.:cool:

The length I ordered is a little longer than our OEM track so there was about 3 inches that wanted to curl. I put a clamp on it just to see if the memory eased in a few days. Overall the Tides Marine track slid on with very little resistance. Once I started it only took about five minutes including stopping for an action photo.

Tony G

10-30-2011, 06:21 PM

While we're on the topic of mast renovation, here's a couple of photos showing what appears to be an exit for, what I assume, was a wire halyard. There are a number of holes drilled in the immediate area. Three horizontally above the hole and two on either side of the hole. All of this is about 6'-6" below the sheave box. About three feet below that are three holes on both sides of the mast that run in a line down and aft. These look like they might have held a set of tangs for running backstays. I dunno. You tell me.

Tony G

10-30-2011, 06:25 PM

And what the heck, here's the slide hardware for the main sail.

Ariel 109

10-31-2011, 03:49 AM

Tony G

10-31-2011, 07:27 AM

Ben,

The mast head wiring comes out of the extrusion about 3" from the masthead fitting and what appears to have been the steaming light was mounted at the level of the spreaders and is evident by the two balanced, or evenly spaced mounting holes and the off-center, sloppy wiring hole.

The main hole here is about 3/8" in diameter and drilled at a downward angle. There is some minor scuffing on the mast that is visible in the photos where "something" was wearing. It also appears as though it was lead aft as though the "halyard" was tied off to a side stay or shroud.

I imagine the three horizontal holes held a forestay tang and the four hole held a block. However, there is no sign of an exit on the lower section ot the extrusion. Being it is common knowledge that our spars are heavy for our size could this be an extrusion from a larger boat that has been cut down to a 30 foot mast? That's what I keep leaning toward.

Ariel 109

10-31-2011, 09:35 AM

Steaming light, not masthead light! Tony this is the one off my Ariel. Kind of looks like what would go where those three horizontal holes are on your mast.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u72/Parlordoor/IMG_0527.jpg

ebb

11-01-2011, 02:05 PM

Smutt is the dark corrosion, haven't found a descriptive word for the white stuff. [Skudge?]
The dark matter is said to come from the chemical alloys Cu, Si, Zn, Fe, Mn. Mg used in extrusions. The white stuff?? Isn't bauxite white?

Looking at TonyG's mast, he hasn't got smutt.
Looking in on commanderpete's photos, one close up shows dark spots on the spars that might be smutt.

All over the stick in my possession, top to bottom, is a double layer of dark and light. An equal amount of deeper dark corrosion and a less corroded top. It is, with the 5" Makita ocillator, very hard to get into the 2 micron deeper stuff using aliminum oxide sanding disks to remove the dark aluminum oxide.

Knowledge knot knowitalls, including myself:o, always point out (ad nauseum) that you don't paint a mast because aluminum makes its own corrosion protection by forming oxide on the surface.
While this is true, it also is a bunch of useless BS. Anybody who looks at the mast I'm attempting to restore can instantly see that in the years it spent wired to ltlgull in a saltwater environment the aluminum did a real lousey job of protecting itself from corrosion. So this knot on the end of a line of BS is meaningless. And many unprotected masts turn up with the same problem.
It is not true that a mast protects itself with an oxide coating. The oxide anodizing it once had, if it did, also did not keep the spar from serrious corrosion.

So I'm looking for something that might dissolve the ingrained material. We are talking about oxide here that is in the same family as sapphires and rubys - it's next to diamonds on the Moh scale...but about 5 times less hard. All in all, Aluminum oxide is pretty hard.

So I thought that before sanding the dark matter should be removed, here's the short list of possibilities:
lemon, lemon and salt crystals, white vinegar, cream of tarter, baking soda, toothpaste (Crest), Hershey's chocolate [NONE OF THESE WORK]
- then there's Oxalic acid, Falseteeth soak, Flitz, NeverDull, toilet bowl cleaner, low PH drain opener, TSP, sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda), Penetrol, Galium and distilled H2O [none tried yet]
-then ferric sulphate, sulfuric acid, ammonium bifluoride, hydrofluric acid, phosphoric acid, methylene cloride, chromic acid and, of course, nitric acid. Nitric acid dissolves all metals. [Rediculous]
What would you do?

So many toxic choices, so little time to try them out.

I think my problem here is that aluminum is considered a porus metal,
so I don't want to have little nasty wet molecules of alkali or acid lurking deep in molecular crevises only to show up 6 coats later in the finals... just from a rediculous caustic cleaning episode.

And still in line before I get to any epoxy primer, there is the degreaser wash, the Alumiprep etch wash and the Alodine conversion wash. Still confused as to what self etching or non-self epoxy primer to use when and if or
befor (after?) the zinc chromate, strontium chromate, zinc phosphate, zinc oxide epoxy primer time arrives.
Most of those primers only come in 2-part gallons at $150 each. If ordered on line HazMat S&H gets a stiff surcharge.
I've heard that donkey urine is pretty strong...

:confused:

Ariel 109

11-01-2011, 02:45 PM

Hi Ebb,

I've found that the best way to sand aluminum is with these sanding pads (see link) on a polishing machine. These will make easy work of all the imperfection on your mast. And would do a much better, quicker job than oscillator or random orbit sander.

http://www.fournierenterprises.com/cart/product.php?productid=16227&cat=13&page=2

The secret of sanding aluminum (most metals) is to use a lubricate like WD-40 or beeswax to prevent the sanding disks from getting quickly dull and filled with reside. This really works, try it with your little Makita.

Follow your paint manufacturer's directions!

ebb

11-01-2011, 03:49 PM

Ben,
Like that super soft. Course 8" means trimming the disks for the five inch Makita.
BUT the soft rubber disc could be used in the hand, by the hand, that is.

Just got handed a bottle of "nickel-safe water-cooler cleaner" that lists phophoric acid.
Tried some with a scothbrite pad on the piece of the mast bottom I had to cut off.
Got black stuff off with no reaction from the aluminum, except it got bright and clean in a water rinse. Way down there on the bottom of the mast there seemed to be some recognizable translucent anodize left. Totally gone everywhere else.
Acid doesn't seem to have bothered it or surrounding.
Does look like a lot of scrubbing ahead! The mantra, don't leave the acid on the aluminum, rinse quick.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________
Assume dark corrosion is Fe 'leaching' - also reacting to salts.
"Phophoric acid has a unique property of dissolving iron oxide quickly while etching iron very slowly." (Bob Neidorff)
But of course, if that is what happened in that little experiment, then the dark stuff is actually iron oxide and is a surface phenoma (we'll see if there is any pitting ) so far as the apparently un etched aluminum mast is concerned.
Acid etching starts a process of hydrogen embrittlement in the treated metal. So this visual observation is not very scientific. Going to try some more, more bravely.
Other possibles: Navel Jelly is p. acid. Dupont has a product: Quick Prep. Sherman Williams: Metal Prep (auto paint supply shops).
Hydrochloric acid and Oxalic acid will do a quick removal but are too aggressive and not as 'selective' as phosphoric acid appears to be.

carl291

11-01-2011, 04:13 PM

ebb, Perhaps you may want to look at what airplane owners/ restorers use/do for corrosion in airframes. I know it spells doom for aircraft but they may have a method to clean and halt further oxidizing. Maybe SPRUCE offers something.

ebb

11-01-2011, 05:01 PM

Carl,
Way back when:
I got a brand new set of airfoil spreaders.
They want a new way of attachment to the mast, counter-intuitive to our bolt, socket and pole method.
So I got them out again and discovered the anodising was chipping off on the LEADING EDGE of both foils. They've been going to weather in the carton they've been stored in, sailing around in a wet mineral dream for years & years.

Anodizing is an electro dip method for increasing oxidation on aliminum. It's thicker, but in microns.
Don't know how the prep was done, but somebody screwed up. Greasey fingers.
These pieces of aluminum will now start oxidizing on the leading edges and the remaining anodizing will become a cosmetic problem. Anodizing makes aluminum look sexy, but the metal if left alone will on its own put on a tough protective dull grey coat. After 45 years it needs more help than self oxidation gave it. Where holes pierced it, stuff hung on it, wires slapped against it, salt chewed on it, needs some kind of help.

litlgull's mast has too many imperfections to be sanded to perfection and just left alone to develop the protective coating on its own. There is no way of stopping oxidation from forming. Even on a shabby mast.
In fact aluminum is so eager to get an oxide coating (and then actually stop oxidizing after it gets that perfect thin coat)
that all this BS in the post above about outrageously priced chemicals and hours and weeks of work is dedicated to interrupt that natural process for a cosmetic payback.

If it gets dinged, only the bare, raw oxide layer of an unpainted mast can heal itself - if it has oxygen/air. But if the cosmetic spar, the muti-layered acid etcherrupticus, gets a ding...all hell breaks loose and the mast immediately gets oxide cancer. No matter what has gone before.... whatever expense it took to stop the oxidation process...
those careful layers of corrosion inhibitors, converters, primers and paint.... when a hole gets chipped in there by a shackle or block... the fancy paint job creates a perfect home for aggresive CREVIS CORROSION.:eek:
Doom bubbles on yer dream stick!
Which the plain old unpainted mast doesn't get,
except where holes are drilled, stuff attached. Sailtrack, sockets, cleats, winches.

That's why we hear all those guys yelling, Don't paint the damn mast!

Ariel 109

11-01-2011, 05:39 PM

One of the best ways to minimizing aluminum from oxidizing is polishing it to a "mirror finish". That is essentially what is done to aircraft. They are not clear-coated. Then keep anyone with moist acidity hands far away. There's a sailboat in my area which has a polished mast, seems to be holding up.

That pitting is your biggest problem. You really need to sand or fill all the pits out if you want to guarantee paint adhesion and have a smooth coat.

There are some good books on auto-finishing. This guy is even more fanatical than you Ebb!

http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Custom-Painting-Techniques-Kosmoski/dp/1929133146/ref=pd_sim_b_15

Tony G

11-01-2011, 05:46 PM

I'll be jiggered! Ben that does indeed look like it could be a contender. What do you suppose the "side" holes are from? The larger hole certainly could be drilled at an upward angle to favor the feed of the wires to the steaming light. And the wear below the hole could be from a disconnected wire just a flappin' in the breeze. I sure hope not! But I seem to remember 113's former owner catching his replacement boat on fire from an electrical "short" in the v-berth.

Ebb, if you're going to spell it with two Ts, well then no, I don't have any smutt;) I thought after the sanding exercise the Phosphoric acid wash was part of the "clean and prep" for aluminum that really prepares the surface for the chromic acid and then use your choice of primer. Just spouting off here.

ebb

11-02-2011, 09:55 AM

Carl, et al, anyone having to paint aluminum. Many times ended up on DIY airplane sites.
Many times couldn't understand a word. Yes, we do have aluminum in common. Also have different problems.
May be wrong, most small plane aluminum structural parts are fabricated and finished off with anodizing before assembly.

Aircraft Spruce "Everything For Planes & Pilots" is a source for coatings and attracts guys like me who are looking for authentic products but feel pretty much like a kid outside the candystore with his nose pressed against the window. Here's the problem.

In the online Covering Materials section I concentrate on prime coatings avaiable after the Alumiprep 33 cleaner and chromate coat Alodine. That IS the coversion coat, right? OK, What's next?

The primer cycle:
AircraftSpruce pushes this brand as numero uno: PTI Speciality Paints Epoxy Primer
(accompaning photo shows aerosol cans - but none available - aerosol theorectically would make fogging thin even coats possible. Almost all aircraft coatings are sprayed on. I'm a roll and tip kind of kid because I don't have the sprayer, don't have the air suit, don't have the facilties or the facility for spraying. Most of us are in that boat, right?)
_______________________________________
This Epoxy Primer is a 2-part, 1 to 1, no thinner necessary (only prices for thinner shown). It has strontium (chromate?) in it - not listed on product page. Do I need another dose of chromate? There may be a roller version but that's not important to 'Spruce. Product description does NOT say the primer can be used after a conversion coat.
_______________________________________
PTI Acid Etch 'AirDryWash' primer. 3-part, 4 to 1 plus reducer. Polyvinyl butyral (auto safety glass), contains zinc chromate and phosphoric acid. May blush. If you put it on too thick, any next coat won't stick. Spray or dip. Prices for reducer only. Their version of Alodine.
_______________________________________
Zinc Oxide primer. "Chromate free, environment friendly". AEROSOL available. $9.95, coverage?
Epoxy? Petroleum solvents, waterborne?
_______________________________________
Zinc Chromate primer. AEROSOL available. [Can't be environment friendly.]
_______________________________________
PTI Waterborne Epoxy primer. 2-part, 4 to 1. Reduces with water Thincoat spray. Prices for 1 pint catalyst and 1 gal kit.

_______________________________________
_______________________________________
Epibond Epoxy Primer Kits. 3-part. Single can shown in pic. Qt kit $79.50. No info.
_______________________________________
Stewart Systems Ekoprime Primer/Sealer. Single part, waterborne. No chromates, no catalyst, low VOC, no HazMat shipping fee (assume). Spray, but foam roller OK. Actually says it goes on after the conversion coating. $34.85 QT. Eko-material not stated.
_______________________________________
Stits Epoxy Primer Kits. 3 part, 2 to 1 plus reducer. Fast dry, cures down to 35F. Separate price for each part.
_______________________________________
PreKote Surface Pretreatment. [So what is this? A wash? A conversion treatment? An epoxy substitute? Is it waterborne? Is it 2-part? When do we use it?]
"Non hazadous, non flamable, odorless, provides corrosion protection, biodegradable, non-toxic, chrome free, enhances paint adhesion." So we slosh it on over the alodine chromate because we suddenly got eco-friendly? Seems to be reasonably priced.

There's no article covering this, no pros and cons, no advice or recommendations. Nobody talking about how this intricate system gets put together, what sticks best to what, using any of these products. Solvents in a new coat might wrinkle the previous coat. Temps,Timing, Humidity facts.
Waterborne coating can provide a solvent barrier - a solvent coating may become a tie-coat because of its solvents. Coatings with solvents require a careful cure time so no solvent outgasses into a later coating.
Private sites, blogs? .... man, I don't have the time anymore.
Snooty know-it-alls!:rolleyes::rolleyes:

So this shows, doesn't it, the quandry a nose-to-the-glass customer faces.
Who knows how to put the quarts in order?
Who's used the aerosols or the Prekote on an old mast?

Where does the third cycle actually begin? That's the last set with an epoxy sanding primer and final paint coats?
Are we here yet?

Ariel 109

11-02-2011, 03:48 PM

Sand aluminum mast to give paint something to hold on to. Degrease aluminum mast thoroughly. Paint with an epoxy primer such as PPG's DPLF, two coats. Finish off with PPG's DCC Concept Acrylic Urethane Single Stage, two coats. Paint costs estimated around $600.00 once you have included all the harders and thinners you are going to need.

There is no need of pretreatments and acid etching if you have sanded the mast, degrease it, then use two coat of epoxy primer. I've sprayed a lot of aluminum furniture parts and can testify on the superiority of Acrylic Urethane finishes once they have dried and cured.

ebb

11-03-2011, 12:05 PM

mouthful.
PPG is Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. DPLF is DietPepsiLeftField. But it probably stands for DualPurposeLeadFree. Some guys have an issue with it and say the old DP was better.
It is a sealer/primer epoxy of choice for a whole other world of expertise. Hotrodders, Auto restorers, Airplane builders, RVers, Cyclists, Speed boaters with outdrives, Aluminum furniture painters etc.
Everyone of those guys knows how to spray paint or are a young wannabe/wannadoo.
Not one of them has ever heard of roll-and-tip, if they did they'd assume it had something to do with steering, or wrestling or dating.
Forum crawling produced a lot about everything epoxy including guys saying they liked BEST the epoxy primer from Southern Polyurethanes, Inc.
Did some hunting on that stuff and without checking their techline yet found in their extensive interactive forum (www.spiuserforum.com) a ref to rolling the primer on. That's about all I need to be converted to a coat! Turn coat?

POR 15 is another epoxy primer I believe. Here are three pages from a guy with a Mercruiser outdrive he painted.
google> Painting Merc Outdrives with POR 15
[that's the title, they start talking about it, but the subject soon changes]
http://www.rinkerboatowners.com/forum/index.php?topic=6679.0;wap2

OUTDRIVES that come into the marina yard are always the most corroded pieces of metal you can imagine. Hard to fathom why anybody wants their engine half in/half out of their boat in salt water. These 3 pages are about how the guy ('raymillsus') prepped and painted his drive
AND this drive comes out of the water 4 years later without any corrosion issues at all - for a "refinishing" - pay attention to that bit.

He calls Alodine the 'negotiator' because it "adheres tenaciously to aluminum and paint tenaciously to alodine."
He is suspicious about self-etching primers because the etched contaminates are incorporated into the completed paintjob. How durable is that, he asks.
Zinc-Chromate Primer, "very good coating on etched aluminum, but not under water! Think about that for a moment?"

As to litlgull's disreputable old mast, how many metals do I want to layer on? Chromates and oxides? Cast aluminum (Almag 35, the mast base) proved to be a huge problem with the extrusion. Cast cleats, the same. Stainless steel of various 300s spiked to the beast....you know, so why introduce another metal? Even out of the water.

This guy for color uses SPI paint - "epoxy polyuretanes" he calls them, "extremely durable, flexible (hard paints crack)". Downside is spraying these coatings.
At this moment for the color I'll roll-and-tip the thin aluminum filled urethane called Aluthane. Won't be pretty pretty, but maybe I can see it as the equivalent of letting bronze naturally go patina?
The epoxy primer we're looking at here is another important 'negotiator' for the enamel color coat as alodine is for the primer. This interface is where another 'system', any favorite brand finish coat, can be conjoined. The primer has to stick to the alodine
but so does a sandable hibuild epoxy need to stick to the epoxy primer and/or any choice of finish.
Repairing a wound in the painted mast. (adapted from raymillsus) Sand and scuff with 80ALgrit.
Etch with Alumiprep 33. Rinse. Alodine (do not leave this step out!). Rinse. Apply your epoxy primer, fair with any epoxy hibuild and sand fair with 220ALgrit. Couple coats of color. Good as new. That repair is a copy of the mast schedule.
Maybe I got the picture!

Ben, I will take a look at that other stuff you mention ASAP.
The PPG DCC CAAUSS plus 2. Thanks!

ebb

11-04-2011, 01:06 AM

There is a problem here that is not a problem if we believe the raymillsus story.
(Whether it is raymillsus is debatable as the contributor's name may have been omitted in the sequence that tells the tale.)

The data sheet for SPI Epoxy Primer does not actually say that it is an acid etch primer. It does say in bold type:
>This epoxy eliminates the need for an acid-etch primer.<

Later on in even bolder type the datasheet say this:
>NEVER use SPI Epoxy over Acid Etch/Wash Primers or Rust Converters.<

My understanding of that is this: If we use this SPI Epoxy Primer we do not want to use Alumiprep33 or need to use the Alodine to neutralize it. We would paint, as Ben says, the primer straight on to freshly sanded aluminum. And go immediately to a hibuild sanding epoxy if needed and then color coat. I'd assume Ben would agree with this?

If you read that Mercruiser post, you will notice that the SPI warnings were disregarded but Mercruiser did add the Alodine to his recipe at exactly the correct moment - applied, and left it on the aluminum as a coating. Not only a conversion or neutralizing, but a barrier coat
In Mercruiser' case the double etching on the aluminum outdrive seems to have worked out perfectly.

I believe, I am convinced, that the etching/deep cleaning of surface contaminates on the aluminum is the only way to go for success. Now, whether I would duplicate the double dip, can't say (it's 1 AM right now). But I like the idea of the Alodine.
And Alodine and Alumiprep33 seem like sisters to me.

Ariel 109

11-04-2011, 03:52 AM

Ebb,

The acid etch primers are for metals that have a smooth surface, no sanding grooves. The primer is what is really holding the paint on the metal. Most of the old acid etch primers I've seen are not superior to epoxy primers on sanded bare metal, they are less costly though.

I suspect why people are getting good results from all sort of different methods has a lot to do with how good metal finishes are today. We no longer have five year old automobiles with rusted out rocker panels strolling our streets.

I still think the key to a good finish is getting all the surface imperfection out first by sanding, just like you would do with wood. You should be able to sand out all the pitting and scratches quickly with the right equipment. I don't think anything in a bottle will do a better job. Really deep pitting you could bead blast to clean up.

Ben

ebb

11-04-2011, 09:27 AM

Ben, I really really appreaciate this exchange of substance.
Seriously enjoying it - facinating subject....
The focus, obviously, is to try saving a 45 year old weathered and neglected spar.
With enough gained knowledge do it the best way.
And do it only once, if possible, so it lasts another 45! Ya sure.

99% of all internet discussions are about smooth surface prep with I suppose very little sanding (to get tooth) as well. Our related posts are mainly about old age aluminum spars - not outdrives and door panels.
Could describe the mast here as having a curdled surface.
The canyons have dark bottoms. The peaks are easier to sand. To smooth the surface, as far as I'm committed will take too much effort and time, and maybe removing the slopes of the canyons too much material will be sacrificed.
After sanding a 3-4 ft section with 60 and 80grit using an ocillating 5"Makita - for what I would describe as plenty of time - the dark canyon bottoms are still untouched. Can only intuit this, but I just don't want to take any more material off, even tho it could be argued that not much good material is actually taken off. The tool is pleasantly light in weight - possibly should use a heavier sander.

So I've convinced self to Alumiprep (phosphoric acid) the whole stick first off. Can always do it AGAIN fresh just befor Alodine - if I am convinced to go that way. My 'test' section where I used dilute liquid per instructions and a medium scour scotchbrite pad produced a much cleaner BRIGHTER and smoother surface....even where I had not yet sanded. Plenty of rinsing.
Seems to me better to work on a clean stick. My early attempts at filling corroded spots using solder/weld metal repair are dramatically revealed and now easy to inspect.

OK, Ben, are you totally against acid cleaning?
If you've seen it here, it looks like phosphoric acid is a more controlable, more selective, and less aggressive way to do the deed. Didn't impress my new orange nitril gloves and scrubbing by hand with pads and rinsing with warm water a fairly contained exercise.

Still have dark areas, more separated, but still there in a bit less 'curdled' surface. Might say they are paler. With a final whole stick pass using scotchbrite, might convince self that the premier
first coat of whatever system will be happy to BOND there. Bond is the operable intent. It will take some faith. Of which I'm in short supply.
The whole mast, after its first one or two primer coats will need to be filled and sanded fair with a sandable epoxy 'primer'. That is if I want smooth mast!

Ben, have to agree that modern paint chemistry makes great coatings.
Like a True Believer I minutely examine the bibles of Salvation Hype, Data Sheets and MSDS Gobbledegook.
We pay a dear price for their use. They are corporate, they are produced by imco unethical techology, they are petro and therefor inherently dirty. That's my greenside wailing. I am more and more inclined to go a cheaper, easier, less nasty chemical way. BUT......
Somebody said it: These chemical systems we think we have to subscribe to make the chemical giants (and their vendors) more rich than they deserve. Or have a right to! BUT.....

Politics never saved an old aluminum mast.
And if I truely was into saving the planet I wouldn't be involved in this endless refurbishing project.:eek:

Bead blasting seems to be acceptable for an aluminum surface. It would be great to do it. It happens that a sandblaster is onsite, I'll ask. But it may not happen in the small residential gravel surface parking area in front of the house the mast is living on. I'll ask. He's $100 hr not including the media.

You know, part of this exercise for me is to find the easiest and cheapest way for anybody (but certainly this fool) to resurrect their mast and boom. Or at least see if it is feasible. It looks like a long shot at this point.

Ariel 109

11-05-2011, 03:07 AM

Ebb,

I've got nothing against using acid solutions to prep an aluminum surface for painting. PPG recommends using a prep solution if you are going to use only a single coat their epoxy primer.

Can't stress enough the superiority of a thick foam 8" sanding pad on a variable speed polisher for finishing a shape like an aluminum mast. With an random orbit or vibrator sander it will take forever and you will waste so much sandpaper. With the 8" sanding disks lubricated with beeswax you will likely use only 5-10 disks on such a project as an Ariel / Commander mast. Labor, half a day!

Tony G

11-05-2011, 06:03 AM

Politics never saved an old aluminum mast.
And if I truely was into saving the planet I wouldn't be involved in this endless refurbishing project.:eek:

It is a cruel and somewhat clumsy cunundrum isn't it, Ebb. I can not always do as I espouse.

Ben, what is the best degreaser you have found for removing beeswax? I haven't touched a wad of that stuff in 30 years and from what I remember it seems that it would be difficult to remove. Being the paint isn't going to ge any cheaper we might as well try to control costs where we can.

ebb

11-05-2011, 10:49 AM

Tony, yup, we gotta look after what we looking forward to!
BEE'S WAX on the aluminum???
That's a good contamination question. I know it's used to prevent clogging the grit, and aluminum does a good job of clogging grit. Those soft rubber blocks used to clean moving sanding belts might be helpful - is it worth investigation to avoid waxation frustration?

Ben,
Polisher, Somewhere in the armory I might locate my old two-arm no-plastic 20# Craftsman Grindodinosaur. Switching it on near tore it out of your grip! Have't seen it for decades. Good thing it went its own way, can't imagine swinging that beast around the mast!
Had a pricey but real nice 'marine' set of foam pads for it. Recall wet sanding something without getting shocked!
I'm sure Mike up at the shop has a $600 Festool polisher with every attachment I can borrow - but Harbor Freight has a variable speed 5/8"/11 polisher for $39.99 OR the upscale electronic version for $49.99. Got the small liteweight 5" Makita with bottomwork in mind, but, as you are pointing out, it would be smart to have a light weight sidewinder as well.
Will find a supersoft at a local autopaint emporium or even a well stocked hardware. The Craftsman grinder had one noisey flatout speed, and spun all foampads like a centrifuge and allowed no bending to any curve!

Going to SimpleGreen the mast again today using the hottest water I can get to it. Rinse.
Then I'll use Alumiprep and experiment with the icemachine phosphoric acid liquid I was given. I think it is more concentrated than the Alumiprep.

Alumiprep and Alodine (the Rinse Sisters) are made by the same company: Henkel.
You can buy them separately but we buy them as a pairing.
ALUMIPREP is available from AirCraftSpruce (but I've seen it $5 cheaper). It is an aqueous soluton of about 5%(?) phosphoric acid that we dilute 2to1 with water to use.
Cannot be allowed to dry on aluminum. All is not lost if it happens: wet the metal with more acid solution and proceed to the RINSE.
This sister, while not benign, isn't total disaster if consciously used. Should be awake.

ALODINE is something else. If this sister can be removed from your mast painting fun then DO IT!
BEN WANTS US TO!

Henkel makes a range of Alodines, most we'll never see.
It is an aqueous chemical anti-corrosion treatment that is brushed on undiluted, left on for 2 to 5 minutes, then rinsed off before it drys. Rinse! If we used it often we'd match the color changes it produces to the aluminum we were using it on.
It will turn the metal to a transparent yellow or tan color. But in our case it's a guess as to what hue.

ALODINE 1201 Conversion Coating we can also get from AirCraftSpruce. It goes on at .002 thickness, a very thin gel film. This process creates a very dependable surface for glues and paint to stick to. It can be the final coating on aluminum.*
Fragile until 24 hours later when it gets hard enough to move the spar. One quart will treat 100sqft - theoretically twice the sqft of our A/C mast.

OK, here's the bad. Alodine is a HEXAVALENT CHROMIUM. That's what chromate is.
Hexavalent chromium is a human carcinogen especially when inhaled. But SWALLOWED is even worse:
It was the PG&E Hinkley drinking water COVERUP of contamination that gave us the amazing ErinBrockovich.
This stuff has been front page in other serious groundwater events.
Hexalalent chromium causes health problems with stainless steel welders. Windblown dust from cement plants contaminates neighborhoods. Leather tanning runoff destroys water and everything living in it. And so much more.

Well, what about the rinsewater runorff from my bornagain mast?
Eyes, skin....

SPECIFIC to what we buy from the internet aircraft catalog vendor, see:
DGR Industrial Products, Inc. (Henkel Alodine 1201 Chromate Conversion Coating #680-109)
www.chemical-supermarket.com/product.php?productid=364

Henkel's Technical Process Bulletin is a very useful exact process datasheet for its Alodine 1201.
However, it allows only that the liquid is "non-flammable, chromic acid based...that will produce a chrome conversion on aluminum."
If you are going to use it, educate yerself (as well as they allow.)
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________
*APPEARS TO BE AN ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF ALUMIPREP/ALODINE
The chromate film can be left uncoated. But we mast-&-boomers need REDUNDANT protection and a better look. So paint comes into the mix.
If Alodine is the coating of choice to protect the metal aluminum, arrest oxide formation and make a great surface for other coatings to adhere to,
then no other primer or paint with acid or chromate needs to be layered on. Wouldn't you think so?
We can go directly to urethane, skipping epoxy altogether. Depends on your cosmetic expectations.

[To hammer the nail home: the unanswered argument is that without the conversion coating the mast will get crevis corrosion (often described as "virulent") if a painted mast gets a ding that penetrates thru to the metal. We have to expect dings and irresponsible fasteners.
That imco says we need something pretty dependable on bare aluminum as corrosion inhibitor if not using Alodine. What's that?]

It appears, from internet research, that using Henkel aluminum prep and passivication solution DUO
makes later and incidental REPAIR and refinishing very easy** on an already painted aluminum spar that has used those two sisters.

That MIGHT be reason enough, the only practical reason, to use those chems and to have them in the bosun's paint locker?
Assume that after painting aluminum we have created a maintenance issue.
That requires fast and easy and permanent MAST UP fixes.

(Ben, acid cleaning OK, good.
If you will paint directly on top of raw etched aluminum your epoxy primer will by definition have chromate in it, something has to keep corrosion at bay. This runny epoxy primer would have to have a long standing good reputation for direct contact with aluminum. Part of my complaint with the flakey AirCraftSpruce catalog is the pecking order of their epoxy primers, what do you use?)

**The Henkel convenience fix for cancerous AL is a very expensive 'pen' that may have shelf life issues and application issues imco.

Ariel 109

11-06-2011, 04:49 AM

Chromate conversion coating? I don't think you'll be able to get consistent results over such large surface such as a sailboat mast with that product Ebb. I also don't think it will last very long in a marine situation. Iridite or chromate coating is an industrial process with big heated immersion tanks and plenty of toxicity issues. A machine shop I use does chromate conversion coatings, mostly on parts for the military, they are carefully monitored by the EPA.

Beewax residue removal? I usually melt it off with a torch and finish by wiping with a solvent. There shouldn't be too much residue on the mast after you've sanded. WD-40 works well also as a sanding lubricate.

Ebb, I'd buy the sanding pad from Ron Fournier's company. Automotive paint supply shops usually don't sell those exact pads. Fournier Enterprises is a great company. Ron Fournier through his books, videos and workshops revitalized the art of metal-forming with hand-tools and simple methods.

ebb

11-07-2011, 09:21 AM

Alodine (chromic acid, a carcinogen) is the 'bad sister' conversion coating. It is the wash treatment of choice. Some details in the posts above here.
All the reading I've done shows everybody uses it in conjunction with the phosphoric acid etch.
We may be having a problem here with the word PRIMER.

The two WASH & RINSE treatments are not primers in the sense of a coating - altho the chromate wash leaves a film behind. That film is supposedly THE corrosion protector. But its main claim is that it bonds to aluminum and paints bond to it. And bonding is corrosion protection.
It so far looks like epoxy paint primers with chromate used over the corrosion treatment are extra insurance in the eyes of the guy who's using it. There might be no need for them.
Can a chromated epoxy primer be used as a corrosion blocker on acid washed (Alumiprep 33) aluminum? Without using the 'traditional' conversion (Alodine) coat? www.aircraftfinishing.com Stewart makes only waterborne primers and paint. They have a one part non-catalysed non chromated epoxy primer that one guy anyway on vansairforce.net forums says can do just that. Go on bare scuffed aluminum............ayeduno.

If we sand with nothing coarser than 80grit on the mast, and nothing coarser than 180grit for any subsequent sanding before the first chromate conversion coat, it has been said we are more likely to make a technical transition from prep to coating stage. Coarser grit sanding "imbeds impurities" that will come back later to screw up paint integrity. Sanding a more uniform surface without deep scratches allows the film more uniform coating.
The insurance of including chromated epoxy primers is for some painters unavoidable because of aggresive or not sure sanding prep. Or on the mast I'm in charge of, a surface of 1000s of unknown tips and crannies.

A 45 year old mast has porosity issues that thin guage furniture or hotrod aluminum sheet (that is going to be painted) doesn't have.
litlgull's mast has countless visible scars with corrosion in them. Time,neglect, and sodium chloride have left an aluminumscape of unseen pin holes and mini fissures everywhere on its surface. Can't sand away old age.

Ben, I cannot find provenace for not including the Alodine film treatment. I don't want to use it.
The first epoxy primer always seems to be a corrosion blocker.
To be a useful as a corrosion proof coating, the epoxy primer has to be water thin so that it migrates/penetrates into the smallest imperfections on the mast surface.

SherwinWilliams supplies paint to the USNavy. They also have a specific epoxy chromated primer that is meant to go over a chromated conversion film. BUT

On the SW website we can find out what was used to renovate the USS Yorktown, now a "coastal Landmark". SW's schedule for renovating the coatings on the WWII aircraft carrier consisted removing most of the old and then a prime coat of organic zinc at 3.5 to 5 mils. An intermediate coat of Macropoxy 646 at 5 to 10 mils. A topcfoat of High Solids Polyurethane at 3 to 4 mils. They used "automotive-type body filler" (bondo) and caulk where ever there were rust streaks! Intended life of 'system' is 20 to 25 years. Painting a gigantic tourist/historical attraction isn't like mast preservation for sure. But no conversion coatings were used!!
The normal "coatings specs for an aircraft carrier really is as thick as a phone book."
The system was designed to coat rusty steel, galvanized iron and aluminum.

There is available from AirCraftSpruce a plain zinc primer. Don't know about "organic."

Glisando Triton 381. TimLackey used Alumiprep 33 and Alodine 1201.
He left the mast's top and bottom cast aluminum fittings in place.
And also did not remove the sail track.
He went Awlgrip and used the 30-Y-94 "yellow anti-corrosive primer" on top of the conversion film. It is a two-part strontium chromated epoxy in a soup of solvents. Awlgrip LPU requires an epoxy base.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
Simple Green scrubbing of litlgull's mast revealed

crevis corrosion in every (104) mast-track screw holes. Seriously, almost every hole has starlike crevises emanating from the hole. Every screw that came out did so with a little bit of white powder.
In the dozen or so holes below the track in the flat where a short piece of aluminum track was attached with fine thread s.s. screws there was nearly no corrosion or white. DFO's did some mangling here that caused corrosion.

My advice is to bite the bullet and remove EVERYTHING from your mast when renovating. Even if you are not going to paint it!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________
I thought SimpleGreen was an environmental product.
Seems many people do. On my now almost empty qt spray bottle it says, "non-toxic and biodegradable."
When trying to find the msds the maker won't reveal ingredients in the formula 'to protect it from piracy'.
The Environmental Working Group, a consumer watchdog takes exception to that. It evidently didn't take industrial espionage for EWG to get an analysis of the cleaner that found 2-butoxyethenol, a carcinogen,
and 66 OTHER CHEMICALS IN SIMPLEGREEN including formaldehyde. Listed on their website.
What's in your detergent?

Ariel 109

11-07-2011, 01:43 PM

No matter what every finisher has to deal with them porosity issues. You might look into learning about flowable glazing putty to fill up some of your deep pits.

http://3mcollision.com/3m-flowable-finishing-glaze-05824.html

Don't discount hot rod painters Ebb! They are the serous metal finishing talent. I've not met many who paint boats for a living with much passion for their work.

ebb

11-08-2011, 12:29 AM

Hey Ben, don't take any of this as disrespectful.
My desk is stacked with downloads, Vansairforce.net forums most prevalent.
I make copies so I can sit on the couch and take notes, rather than at the monitor.
Latest one here is a three pager on what the guys think of PreKote.
Guys building airplanes and hotrodders like the rest of us are interested in less toxic materials - therefore PreKote as an alternative to Alodine.
From his description of its application to his RV7 one guy makes it sound like a description of an application of Alumiprep. But for me peeking in, it's all guys who know what they are talking about talking with each other. I'm really unable to extract info that really works for my general yet very specific interest. There's never a single track to a reasoned conclusion. PreKote seems to be softer and more difficult to apply.

An RV7 isn't a Winnebago.

But here's one for you, Ben, quote:
(dated 9-15-2010) from dedgemon, (titled) scuff, clean, epoxy
" I've painted two RV's now and have talked to countless other builders about this. The traditional method of etch, alodine, prime does work, but it is NOT necessary. Modern automotive (such as PPG DP) epoxy primers are designed for adhesion on scuffed aluminum.
I've been happy with the following. Use soapy water and scuff with a gray (or red) scotchbrite pad to a totally satin finish. Then clean and DRY thoroughly with compressed air. I use rubbing alcohol and lots of paper towels to produce a totally clean surface. Then shoot the epoxy and whatever topcoats you want.
Another friend of mine did this exact thing on his '6 about 12 years ago. Still looks great with no adhesion issues. "

Well OK, mon, no toxics at all, except for the epoxies and the urethane.

Then the next guy comes along and says:
"....try baby bath - no salt, no wax. Then, when dry, or if you don't need to wash - scuff the whole surface with red Scotchbrite - please get the real stuff, not the cheapo brand. 3M products just do it correctly. Then go over the whole aeroplane with Alumiprep from Spruce - a mild acid brightner - you really see the surface clean up.
Swill off with water, let dry in the sun, then spray on 2 part etch prime, build prime and sand, shoot colour, stand back, admire!"

This is followed by a newbie (R4LIFER) about to build a '4 uncertain from reading the posts whether he should prime at all. And how much weight all the primer and paints will add to his airplane....
"please be as complete with your answers as you have time for. THANKS!!!"

And that is the problem - because we are faced with unsubstantiated opinions and no continuity.
The PreKote thread just peters away into other subjects, and very little is revealed. If something peaks your interest it usually is one man's opinion, who writes with a little more authority than usual.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
Ben, thanks for the blueline, haven't seen that product before.
It is a polyester based 2-part fairing compound. Assume it is a squeezable 'traditional' bondo, which is a neat idea. I don't think of polyesters as glue.
This 'glazing compound' would have to go on scuffed/sanded bare metal which might be OK, but my own limited/peculiar/misinformed experience tells me not to use it like that. This whole wash&chromate business is to get aluminum to accept foreign stuff - which it really doesn't want!

In the old mast's case using the polyester material on bare sanded/etched I'd describe as "imbedding" the surface of the aluminum. But will the compound bond to it?
If the glazing is used on treated aluminum (acid etched and conversion coated) I'd guess there would be even less tooth for the polyester to stick to altho Alodine's other job is as a next coat adhesion enhancer. So maybe that would be the time to use this glazing compound.
But if applied after etching before alodine, I would be uncertain about the alodine treatment which 'traditionally' is applied to bare aluminum.
A series of unknowns, not good for the immune system or stress level. Is there any literature that specifically addresses the Alodine issue?
Or is all info anecdotal: 'my friend painted his RV'007 with only epoxy 12 years ago and it looks just fine today.'

The next usual layering on of materials would mean I could go smooth after the first thin epoxy primer, WHATEVER THAT EPOXY COATING IS I HAVEN'T A CLUE YET? Concensus has the first primer as a strontium chromated epoxy. But there is obviously movement afoot to remove chromates from the process.
But I don't think it can be just ignored. YET.

I'd go next with my familiar SherwinWilliams ProLine sandable epoxy primer that I've used all over the boat inside and out.
- then next on to the fairing/smoothing of the whole spar.
In the past I've made a kind of alternate slurry fairing compound by mixing West System 407 dust into the ProLine primer and using that for fairing. (But a normal batch of 407 mixed with top-of-the-line (TAP) laminating epoxy would be just as good because its consistancy can also be thin or thick as you like it.) Worked for me and the paint still set up like epoxy. Was even more sandable.
Then a final ProLineprimer coat. Then topcoat.
Cheeeeze! sounds..... heavy!!!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
It is my unscientific opinion that any epoxy PRIMER ( solvent or waterborne / poisoned ones like chromated primers) can be overcoated with any type of enamel topcoat, solvent or waterborne, epoxy or urethane.

ebb

07-11-2012, 09:40 AM

UPDATE
Convinced self that the age & deteriorated condition of the Ariel mast required Alumiprep33 and Alodine1201.
There is anecdotal history of these two nasta sista's being used to reclaim metal spars - so at least experiences can be compared.
CommanderPete did his own mast and had some disappointment.......not sure how it chemically resolved.
Set in 95degree California mid-July afternoon shade. About 60/70 relative humidity
- at the end of the day

Alodine1201 produced NO GOLD SHEEN.

WHY?
Track holes, major repairs worked & filled, scars & depressions filled with aluminumpaste.
Orbital sanding overall with new Bosch resin-bonded 120 aluminum oxide disks - significant visible scratches with significant black pock spots remaining - surface feels completely smooth. Vibrating caused only two of the 100 old, but recently LabMetal filled, track holes to fall out!
BIG hole repairs holding steady.

Began ballet with eco dish dertergent, warm water and determined scrubbing with new maroon Scotchbrite. Hose rinse. Sanding scratches reduced.
Water used is UV treated well water without flouride added. Minerals and dead bacteria included. Not deionized as some purists insist!

1-to-2 dilution of acid etch (suggested in Process Bulletin for significant corrosion) applied with macaroon pads and scrubbed in three sections - making sure no drying occured. Immediate lightening action on metal with first application. Difficulty blending surface with subsequent dousing and abrading with pad. Process Bulletin says start at bottom work up. No bottom on horizontal mast! Visible streaking.
Pail water significantly blackened with process scouring. Half way along mixed up a second batch. Ultimately used most of the Alumiprep quart.
Thoro rinse. BUT did not scotchbrite the rinse as I should have. 100 readings of instructions made no mention, if I wanted an excuse!
Water breakfree observed. Damned if I didn't check the pH of the rinse runoff (as suggested on a vansairforce forum). But the ole spar never went dry!

One more overall hose rinse. Technical Process Bulletins for Alodine1201 & Alumiprep33 do not specifically say that after the final rinse the aluminum should be dry or wet. When used as dipping sauce Alodine is diluted with water. Wasn't concerned whether the spar was damp or hardly drip dry when I began. Full strength Alodine with a new 2 dollar 4" bristle brush.
[If Alodine has a shelf-life, I had it for a year unopened in it's original plastic shipping wrap.*]
The stuff went on nicely yellow with an immediate visual surface reaction that the second app in the same place could not amalgamate, the initial reaction photographed permanently. Extra Alodine was brushed on to keep the work from drying. After 3 or 4 minutes undisturbed each section was rinsed. Both chemicals have a max wet dwell time of 5 minutes, then must be rinsed.
A final hosing washed OFF 99 and 44/100% of the gold color. GONE. SAYONARA.

If the process was diligent, why didn't the blonde show up? I mean I really worked for this date.
On one vansairforce.net forum at 6061-T6 SaltSpray Failures, Alodine 600 (I know this is not specific, but methodology is revealing) - the poster's frustration was that his pro shop was using technically perfect processing - and getting failures with no trace as to 'why?'
One suggestion was that the first removal of oxide (mine was pretty vigorous!) was "too deep"
into the base metal. But the poster had no explanation of why that was a why!

Too clean? If we keep to the 5 minute drill, imco A338's mast cannot be too clean. It can, perhaps, be 45yrs too old, have too many pits and crannies,
too much embedded sodium chloride crystal, too many years of ingrained polutants. Vansairforce guys use brand new panels.
Awlgrip prep instructions for Alodine 1201 cautions against drying and continues:
"repeat procedure until proper color and breakfree rinse is obtained." [Have to remember we're brushing this stuff on already break free prep.]
Now that the conversion coat is there and now dry, there definitely is something there that seems smooth and glossy.
I won't add any more poison. And after drying, another coat means sanding prep befor rechromate. Too old for this prep-de-prep BS.

Hope ALUTHANE comes up to its hype! Gonna roll the mast tonight as soon as it drops below 100.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
*WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?
Checked in with many sites looking for an answer. An exchange on vansairforce confirmed and convinces me that while Alumiprep will work
no matter how long you've kept it around, Alodine has a definite shelf life of '720' days from the factory. My quart may have been old when I got it! Exposure to sun and heat alters it. My deadly was kept in a dark cupboard. If it's that sensative it should be sold in a dark container.
Still, there is on my part an OBSERVED reaction on the Alumiprep etched metal when the Alodine is first brushed on. OK, there WAS A REACTION - a conversion - an absolution - of some indetermined sort & consequence - I'll always wonder where the yellow went.
It is a GOOD sign that litlgull didn't fully accept that crap in her wings......I'm relieved for litlgull
.....but disgusted with my choice to go with that really twisted sister, Alodine.

What remains in the bottle, even toothless as a washed-up crack victim, we can assume is just as lethal as it ever was. Applied half the bottle. Will dilute remains and evaporate in a pan. When there's a concrete job on my job site here, what's left goes into the mix.
[but......but ebb, what..... what happened to the..... rinse water.....?:o]

ebb

07-18-2012, 09:37 AM

If the refurbishment process is important to us, we might have chewed over whether it was a good idea to ignore the apparent conversion failure - or go back and reapply fresh Alodine. Have gone ahead & rolled 4 coats, so far, of Aluthane, as the final finish for the mast. Let me introduce you...
QUART CAN sat for at least a year undisturbed. Upon opening, the aluminum powder/flakes mixed in immediately. How many times has a pigmented paint been packed with solids that never get fully mixed into the liquid? No problem, no turdums on the stir-stick or in the corners of the can!

MSDS tells us Aluthane comp is 20-25% aluminum. 2-3% Xylene. 25-30% aromatic petroleum distillate (naptha). 50-55% polyisocyanate based on MDI (MDI = diphenylMethane DIsocyanate)
MDI is the code to look for to ID the best (a matter of opinion) in hi-end complex chem ambient Moisture Cure Urethanes. You've used it for bowling alleys, gym floors, and applied it to wood floors in your house with a sheep's wool applicator. It's clear, quick drying, UV + chemical + impact + abrasion + salt + gasoline resistant. It's applied independant of weather, temperature. humidity, dew point. It's elastic, quick drying, and cross links with atmospheric moisture. Water resistant but not immersion proof. Don't believe this aluminum filled urethane (or any other urethane imco) can be used as an underwater barrier coat. Xylene, Xylol is the solvent. It eats my orange 'first responder' nitryl gloves.

Aluthane goes on very very thin. 4 coats so far and at any edge it's as sharp as it began. On the smooth mast it's a flat light aluminum gray. I've been sanding between coats: beginning with 180, now 220 using an Hitatchi quarter sander. More than a single pass with the sander removes what you just rolled on. Have gone thru to bare metal in some places trying to smooth first coat mistakes.:eek:

All the anti-corrosion protection eggs are in one basket. Everything depends on this MDI MCU(moisture cure urethane) coating to bond to the mast better than epoxy primer. Failed witch's brew could invite a later big adhesion problem...but... conversion film specifically makes it possible for epoxy chromate & sanding primers to stick to aluminum for expensive LPU spray jobs..... so maybe halfast conversion film won't get in the way of super bond aluminum-urethane! A more integrative coating shouldn't create the absolute corrosive anode/cathode horror effect where epoxy-LPU gets breached on the mast. SOME vansairforcers go immediately to urethane after etch without using Alodine conversion. (Ben's posts above here.)

Aluthane, imco, being an aluminum filled coating, ought to be more tolerated by the ancient mast than talc/titanium-dioxide filled epoxy primers. Repairs to dings and scratches won't need the toxic two-sista extra step REPREP that is required to renew the LPU bond. In other words you have to reapply the conversion coat to repaint LPU on a scratch. Hey! Gotcha!
Henkel has a very expensive ding fixer 'pen' (probably with an abrupt shelf-life due to Alodine) that imco isn't realistic. In fact: stupid!

Aromatic solvents in Aluthane are carcinogenic equal oportunists like the hexavalent chromates in Alodine - there's nothing less toxic by keeping Aluthane on hand. As a coating, however, it has a 1000 uses aboard a boat. The half-sized paint-tray happens to be embossed with a tri-arrow recycled PETE....Polyethylene. Authane BONDED to the plastic!... since it also bonds to itself, the tray will become an old buddy!

Started first coat only with a standard short nap 4" roller, tipping with a foam brush. Awkward on convex mast. Left mini ridges when set. The paint being so thin means that mini ridges are really significant. Light sanding (altho I believe scouring/toothing is unnecessary when recoating Aluthane) goes toward getting an absolutely smooth final finish. The way we do varnish. This stuff goes on dense, but thinner than varnish. Thinking about clear satin coat finish (System3 WRLPU?) Aluthane can also be used as a primer for epoxies, enamels, LPU, even latex! [So says the literature - but being a urethane I would test first.]
In 100 degrees it set up too quick - shudda thinned it with a tot of xylene, even tho they say you don't have to. Found a 100% better applicator in a Whizz 4" 'premium foam' wire roller #54060 (made in Germany) $2-$2.50 per. NO RIDGES, NO PIECES PULLING OFF, NO LAPS.... S m o o o t h e.

Another attribute imco is that when rolling the spar Aluthane does not flow into the screw and bolt holes. Stays where it is rolled.

Here's another plus imco that really shows Aluthane's versatility.
By mixing (WestSystem) 407 into the coating you've got yourself a right-now filler for those holes that fell out out when you began sanding. Also those fills you thought were smooth but after coating show up like small pox craters.
407 is a propriatary composition of red phenolic micro-spheres, expanded mineral perlite, vaporized quartz sand (Cabosil). Readily availble ingredients - but aye haven't come up with a suitable mix of my own. In this case makes a silver colored hard tack that, if you've chamfered the hole, seems to stick pretty good. Maybe better than LabMetal. Using the coating also for impromptu paste repairs, rather than going with another system (epoxy) makes it a snap and imco adds bonding insurance. You might lightly wet the inside edges of the hole befor knifing in the filler.
A reasonably thick test wad of mix sets up just like 407 does in 2part epoxy paint - and of course 407 in 2part laminating epoxy. A nice surprise!
407 mixes easy to whatever paste consistency you're familiar with. Thinner mix is better for sticking. The mix holds shape when loose. 407 is very thirsty stuff. Use 1/4oz & 1/2oz amounts of Aluthane when mixing paste for touch-up - sets quick.
When sanding the naked mast, remember the sail track flat is slightly CONCAVE. Whoops! You risked removing whatever protection you had on those edges when you block sanded. A piece of 220 held around a short piece of pvc tube gives control when sanding that flat - IT'S NOT FLAT.
Those corners on the flat get hidden under the sailtrack - so you won't get to touch them up after the track is back on.

Mixing 407 filler into Aluthane is a cute trick that makes using this stuff even cuter. ALL experimental. Results unknown. Aluthane is a real treat.:cool:
emailed Paul Oman (with the paste feedback) at www.epoxyproducts.com* - who sells quarts of Aluthane for $32+UPS. Haven't finished the can yet. Probably 6 to 10 coatings with the Whizz roller? (but I began trying it out on other stuff!)
[*This site is difficult for most to navigate. When you get there, you're faced with an egg crate page. 'Marine Navigation Bar', go >right to:
and cursor 'Marine Online Catalog', scroll to Section One, scroll to Important Links, find ALUTHANE (in blue).
You can also get in thru google. But then what?...you just might find Hansel & Gretel still wandering around in there!:rolleyes: good luck.]
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Have continued to seven coats with light 220 sanding between (single sheet in quarters for the whole mast). No appreciable buildup of coating, but each successive coat evens the surface making the mast look newer and newer, if that's the word.
Aluthane paint itself has been problematic to use. Been squirting inert gas (argon/CO2) into used can befor closing - with mixed success. It may be that the pressurized gas just gets blown right back out. But skin forms by next day & breaks like thin ice into bits if you try to lift it out, contaminating the remaing paint, so it has to be strained. And this has to be done quick like a fox.
Strain into new empty qt cans thru FINE MESH cones. Been using those fit-all yellow plastic pour spouts in an attempt to keep the Aluthane OUT OF THE MOAT that the lid seals into. The lid will SEAL & BOND making it nearly impossible to reopen the can - I've @%&*^%#$#@!!! done it, and used offset pliers completely destroying the top of the can. Empty or almost empty used cans can be reused because remaining Aluthane sets up hard.
Complicates the kit - and the cleanup ritual. The only solvent that will cut thru half set Aluthane is xylene, which destroys ALL disposable gloves. Double up on nitryl and try not to soak them. Get them off your hands immediately. ALL DISPOSABLE GLOVES ARE PERMEABLE.
Get Aluthane off your skin IMMEDIATELY or you'll be decorated for the next three weeks.
Ordered 'disposable' 5-layer laminated gloves - yet to arrive. $30 butyl (least permeable synthetic rubber) gloves get the fingers sticking together by the solvent, so you know something is not right there either!

ebb

08-10-2012, 10:25 AM

ALL DISPOSABLE GLOVES ARE PERMEABLE.
It is a game to ID a single all-purpose glove we could count on to guard hands from the whole gaggle of boat yard liquids & solvents.
Ketones degrade nitrile, pvc, viton.
Alcohols degrade pva (pva is also degraded by water ! ! )
Aromatic solvents degrade neoprene, pvc, latex and butyl.

So what to grab? There are a couple brands of chemical resistant 'disposable' gloves that say they can be used with all the usual hazardous suspects. 280 hazardous chems (list exists.)
BUT take this as opinion only - you should do your own research check - can't vouch for what the corporate world foists on us po' sailors.

North 4H SilverShield - quite thin at 2.7mil. 5-layer PE/EVAL/PE (polyethylene and ethylene vinyl alcohol) laminated FILM. Gloves are not dip molded over a three dimensional form but cut flat from sheet with an identical second piece edge bonded on top. Probably stampt out using a hot metal wire shape pressed thru two sheets of the 5 layer plastic laminate that also melt-bonds the hand shape together. Couldn't rate these sacks for dexterity. There are seams everywhere when on your hands. The thumbs don't really 'oppose the fingers'. These are finger bags.

Least pricey throw-away I've seen is from LSS - $51.10 bag of 10pr. Sizes up to 11.
Come in three lengths. Purely by chance got the 16" which gives the glove a decent cuff. 14.5" and 29" also available.
Mine came from Northern Safety & Industrial delivered for $66.28. Catalog price about $5.50pr.
McMasterCarr has them on pg 1770 - but only in sizes 7,8,9 - mil thickness 2.7 and similar lengths - so they probably are North Silver Shield.
You can buy a single pair for $6.60 or a 10pr bag for $6.14ea. Fastest delivery time on earth, and probably only vendor selling single pairs!
[MMC never mentions brand names - which allows them to provide generic and comparative descriptions of products without brand hype.]
These stamped out gloves are not handed, so you can replace a single glove.

Ansell is probably the best known glove maker. Their "280 chemical resistant" gloves are called
Ansell Barrier 2-100 - at 2.5mil, also 5 ply laminate of PE/PA/PE (polyethylene & polyamide) films - they are lined with Tyvek inside. Believe these are flat thumb but supposedly a 'second generation' Barrier version with opposed thumb is in the marketplace, which would make them easier to wear. Haven't found them. Don't have a spare sixty bucks to try them out just now.

Both these gloves are not built over a liner. They are thin films that probably could easily be punctured. Lit suggests an over glove or under glove be used.
Most of us won't be batheing in solvents, so a nitril or butyl glove could be pulled over the barrier glove to protect the expensive disposable for multiple use. But good luck holding on to anything. Immobilized hands get tired quickly.

Aromatic solvents (naptha, xylene) will also seriously degrade nitril if you soak the rubber, which will expand and fall apart. Desperation found that in a pinch nitril gloves can be doubled up (two ply!) and the outer glove sacrificed - if your exposure is short term, like maybe 2 minutes max.
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Coating mast with Aluthane:
Final wipedown prep immediately before each recoat, to remove dust*, is done with the coating's primary solvent on a soaked rag gripped in a SilverShield glove. Logic has it that any lurking solvent left on the last coating is recognized as family by the next coat being rolled on.
Logic also has it that this method is based on ignorant superstition & faith - because
De-dusting could just as thoroly be done with sponge & water & clean rags - smarter & safer in a number of ways. NEVER EVER use a tack rag.
(*Outdoor shade for mast work is provided by a couple poplar & liveoak trees, both of which drop, drip & ooze on hot days. Project manager assumes that xylene cuts and dissolves these natural resins better than the saner stuff.)

ebb

09-04-2012, 10:55 AM

I'd like to have a photo here - because litlgull's mast is now coating complete.
8 coats of Aluthane and 7 of System3 WR-LPU clear satin.
The mast, waiting for its attachments, looks like a normal galvanized spar.... blank.... but it GLOWS!

For the record, as I sanded each coat of the aluminum filled (25%) one part moisture cure urethane, it's single mat shade of gray strangely changed into uneven darker grays with lighter gray continental google-earth formations. Like a bad job of sanding.
Using 220, there isn't a significant amount of material coming off, but because the coating is so extremely thin, it is too easy to sand too deep. Very mild toothing still produces a cosmetically nasty looking surface - which is OK as long as it's only a mode in 'perfect prep.'
This paint officially requires no toothing or scotchbrite scouring to recoat. After fiveorsix coats of perfect prep between each, the last three rolled one on top of another without sanding. You wouldn't know it.

SYSTEM 3 WR-LPU CLEAR SATIN is a ridiculous water reducible, almost zero viscosity, polyurethane... that ebb hopes will mate with a completely crazy and - until now - virtually unknown and non-yachtsie rusty piling & barge paint.
Tested using an Aluthane coated piece of aluminum tube with vertical paint tape separators - brushed some unthinned & uncrosslinked transparent coating onto three sections: 1. unprepared Aluthane, 2. (3M 7447 maroon very fine) Scotchbrite mesh scoured section , and a 220 grit sanded. The 220 with LPU still looked nasty and uply. The lightly scoured section had a slightly darker overall hue than the unprepared Aluthane BUT was even and UNBLOTCHED. Might have guessed that applying clear urethane on top of aluminum urethane would produce no changes in shade. LPU takes a couple weeks to completely cure, but it seemed bonded-as-one to each test strip and hard as nails the next day. Will it wrinkle, bubble, or squeek?

SO, a light tickling of the 8th metallic seal (which had cured on the mast a few days) with a new piece of maroon pad became the transitional prep. The aluminum coating out of the can isn't smooth like varnish when dry. There is a texture produced by the metal filler. A light going over made it slightly, shall we say, smoother. But aye knew it was going to be a number of LPU coats that would really get the mast looking visually and mechanically... smoother. That's what clear coat is all about.

WR-LPU
is not strictly a 2-part like they advertise. Part two is a crosslinker added at 8 drops to an ounce of first part. Ap guide suggests that normally it's added to the last couple coats of a session to leave a really hard abrasion resistant film. The drops aren't essential for part one to set.
Made up in turn three 4-ounce batches. This being the first time for quantities, it just worked out as an unintentional seven coats on the 30ft mast. Could have continued making batches! 17 total wet ounces with water thinner. No prep necessary between coats within the guide's 8hr window.

First batch, while there still was some cool cloud cover, 32 drops were added to 1oz of tap water, and then mixed in with the fab 4oz. Rolled on using the 4" Whizz premium foam roller with a half-sized plastic tray. Immediately tipped with a 2" foam Jen Polybrush. Second and third batches had 32 drops of linker added to 2oz of reducer, because the day heated up. The Whizz spreads evenly and leaves no ridges like a short-nap hard roller (that they recommend in their guide) on the curved surface of the spar. Spreads the coating beautifully, but wants tipping right now.
Open can is casually covered between stages, and the roller seranwrapped while breaking for lunch - one roller, one foam brush for the completed session. What's that?.... approx 38sqft of mast surface coated 7 times = 267sqft total. 12oz, of a 32oz $59QT. $3 in applicators.
Right!.... & my labor is cheap too!
Of course, with the coatings super-thinned, the resulting number of coats would be superthin also! Maybe that's OK on metal?

Has to be celebrated - this mild melon scented waterborne S3/WR-LPU is a delight to use. NO PETROLEUM SOLVENTS. What a relief! Worth every feeftynine dollar. Keep it off your skin, bonds to it very good.
[Silver Shield gloves - used with xylene to wash down the mast before Aluthane coatings - worth every $5.50pr, easy to slip on & off & use again.]

Tipping seemed easy, altho there was some tugging as the material immediately began setting. Armspan sections at a time - applied wet on dry and rolled into the previous wet edge. Second and third batches had two ounces each of water added as thinner. Those are 50% reductions! Twice the recomended 25% limit. Of course, coatings being super-thinned, rssulting total thickness super thin as well. LPU already is a thin paint.
Because the Whizz is so efficient spreading liquid evenly, application and tipping goes quickly. Had to: the coating is setting while tipping... it was bone dry at mast top - ready for the next coat - while still slopping it on wet at the heel. There seemed to be barely enough time for the application to flatten as it set up. Every batch was crosslinked so every coat is crosslinked.

Clear coating the lightly scrubbed aluminum paint in no way changed the gray color, first to last coat.
After seven coats of WR-LPU clear satin there is now a dolphin skin like glow to the stick. Every imperfection hoped to disappear is fully present. Yet the original filled & sanded ancient surface is under 15 coats of hi-tech can magic.

It's quite obvious both unrelated 'thanes like cooler surface and air temps to apply. [System3 formulated in Seattle. Aluthane in Alabama.]
Applied all LPU coats one right after the other at 70 to 85F (temp rising) - and 70 to 50 RH (humidity falling).
These numbers are within application guidelines - and the resulting roll and tip surface looks OK
- but imco the coating would have relaxed more AND the worker been more relaxed applying 25% thinned paint in cooler temp and higher humidity.
Time will tell. Next mast, I'll roll all those Aluthane coats one right on top the other NO prep, same as the System3.

But it's DONE. Looks seamless with no staggers, lap marks or ridges in coverage. Spar appears more sprayed than painted. But because it's aluminum colored you have to look twice to see that it is actually coated! If that's a grace.
A few runs. And all the prep booboos.... never went away.:o If not impeccable, it's righteous.
Hope this is useful!

Maybe post a pic.

mbd

09-04-2012, 11:05 AM

Yes Ebb - please post some Little Gull pics! Some of us haven't gotten to see ANY in the last few YEARS! BTW, how is the interior coming along?

ebb

09-10-2012, 09:40 AM

Thamks Mike, maybe something will happen on that front.
Commodore Bill has reminded me that it's time for a visit, have to see.

One last thing about mast coating and whether it's easy to create an environment for corrosion, finally steered away from introducing epoxy primers and fillers. The possibility that a little scratch in an LPU-coated mast could get infected and create all too common crevis corrosion that cancers the expensive coating and eats aluminum.... guess it got to me.
Introducing epoxy primers and hi-build, possibly porus, sanding primers between aluminum and hard water resistant paint is probably not smart.
Because scratches and dings do happen. And the miniature moisture activated anode/cathode effect - creating a positive/negative electric charge - enhanced by the micons of capillary electrolytic separation the epoxy layer likely produces....convinces me.
It is certainly not proved, that not fully water proof nor fully bonded paint layers are the flaw in LPU mast paint syatems.
However when the coating is breached - thru to the aluminum metal - it no longer protects against corrosion - in fact it generates & enhances the problem - makes it worse than imagined. That does seem to be the case.
[To aid remembering: Maximize the anode, minimize the cathode. Large area of cathode-to-anode accelerates corrosion - large area of anode-to-cathode can be acceptable. When you paint the mast and it gets scratched you have a small anode and a very large cathode. S.S. fasteners in AL are normally considered safe. AL rivets in S.S. is a no-no.]

litlgull's mast is sanded with aluminum oxide.
Repaired up top (fingers crossed) with aluminum Durafix.
Filled with aluminum LabMetal.
Coated with aluminum urethane, Aluthane.
That coating scrubbed a number of times with Scotchbrite aluminum oxide coated maroon mesh 3M7447.
The pads as well used through all stages of prep. Maroon has the finest grit.

Only after that all-aluminum jazz is a waterborne non aluminum LPU iced on top.

We'll see if we have 'battery effect' when an accident goes thru to the metal. Or a screw or fitting or bolt hole goes bad.
(Did have that maybe 'failed chromium coating' I choose to ignore - with maybe unknown consequences.)
Do believe Aluthane is a very superior bond coating - versatile - unique - bonds better than any epoxy. So what tests has this fool done!?
Literature says it can be used as a primer coat. Paint whatever your heart desires over this urethane bond coating.
Suspicion still is that the required epoxy core in the schedule for flawless awlgrip-type solvent LPU coatings
is the culprit in common aluminum crevis corrosion on boom & mast. imco
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EDIT. Mast has rested quietly for a week or so. Transit of light during the day shows the mast sometimes looking gorgeous, other times shows painting was done. More coats of Aluthane wouldn't have hurt.
More standard coats of S3WR-LPU would have been better too.
To ADD more LPU at this point, requires sanding. In this case, thinking of maintenance, and that time will wear LPU thin, and that breeching the aluminum paint with abrasive is a big problem , doubling the number of primary clear coats would have been really smart.

In the solvent world of marine LPU coating, best known is Awlgrip, which is a POLYESTER based LPU - considered the hardest and longest lasting cosmetic urethanes. Awlcraft might represent the ACRYLIC LPU paints - it's what the auto industry clear coats with. Two-parts require massive amounts of aromatic solvents in makeup and application. Auto industry is rapidity switching over to waterborne paints. Coatings are equally durable, safer and easy to apply. Solvent based LPU weakest link is adhesion over solvent based epoxy primers, done awl the time in the marine world. System3's epoxy primer is waterborne. Time for a real - intellegently designed - paint test. For an intro into two part thanes:
[www.epoxyproducts.com/lpu.html
google LPU Two Part Linear Aliphatic Poly Urethane - Polyurethane Paint
read Paul Oman's - one of my internet business heros - essay on the subject!]

System 3 Water Reducible LPU is a POLYESTER urethane. Don't believe anybody has tested these two chemistries - water vs petro - with other brands, of course, side by side for appearance, ease of DIY, and longevity in the 'extreme marine environment.' Would be interesting to a number of sailors, WOULD IT NOT??? (Sadly, can't see Practical Sailor having the moxie.)
Consider litlgull's mast a test - maybe blind, but a test.
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"Tradition is what you resort to when you haven't the time or money to do it right." Kurt Herbert Adler
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some pix of the mast on Ebb's Galley, pg21
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Later EDIT. Had total failure of System 3 WR-LPU. Removed all coats including Alothane. Will not use chromates or etch toxics to redo
mast. Using PREKOTE. As someone on Van'sAirForce pointed out when using chromates in your own backyard, your children, your pets
are going to get these poisons in their systems. You are going to track it into the house, into the shop. It's going to become part of your dust and you and yours are going to breath it. It'll get into your laundry. The wash water you used to process your mast is contaminating your ground water. Your well water. It's eventually going to end up in your community runoff and end up in the bay. Look up Prekote, good credentials, use it on your aluminum... 2016