Reefing Systems

[Theis]

Let's see if this works better

I'd be interested to know what sort of reefing systems people are using with their Ariels/Commanders - and what their experiences are.

I never use the boom roller reefing that came with the boat. When I did use it was not satisfied - but I can't remember why.

I have two sets of roller reefing on the main, one at 20% and the other at 40%. The tack is secured with two hooks, one on either side of the boom, each mounted using one of the screws that secures the boom to the gooseneck. The outhaul/quick reef for each set of reefpoints goes from a cleat at the forward end of the boom, through the inside of the boom, and out, around a cheekblock located on the boom just aft of the clew associated with the set of reefpoints (so that the pull on the clew is about 45 degrees - 70% of the force being out, and 70% of the force pulling the sail down to the boom). The line goes around the cheekblock, through the clew, and is tied back to the cheekblock (so I get 2:1 purchase).

I often use the first set of reefpoints, but have yet to be forced to go down to the second (although I would do it in thunderstorm or other violent weather).

[reids]

My commander had no reefs until I obtained a nice used main with 1 set of reef points. all The boats in my sailing club had Jiffy reefing, So I installed the syswtem myself. On the goose neck I put a hook for the cunningham, and on the aft starboard end of the boom I put an eyehook. To the eyehook I attached a 22' 5/16 line that runs up from thestarboard, through the reef kringle, and down the port side of the sail to a block mounted on the boom. the rope goes through the block and then forward to a clam cleat with an eye ring in front of it. it is llos until you reef.
to rref I let out the main halyard to put the hook at the gooseneck and pull tight the rope led through the leef reef cringle, then ty the main with the reef lines permanently attached to the sail. Done while Hove-to, it is quick and easy, even in 30knot winds. I have had to on lake huron 2x last year

the diagram shows it qute well. For the 2nd reef though, you need an additional setup

"jiffy Reefing" It is fun for the whole family,

[Bill]

For an excellent jiffy reefing system, check the back of the Harken catalog. They show a single line system that can be lead to the cockpit.

[Tony G]

That's right, then free-up the foot on the main and add some full length battens, some batt cars, couple of blocks, lazy jacks and a jamb cleat :D Hey! wait a minute, that's my x-mas list!!!

[Theis]

Is the concensus then that a 2:1 purchase on the quick reef is adequate? Anyone have any more? Any thoughts on the angle between the cheek block/eye and the reef kringle? If it is straight down, it doesn' pull the outhaul out, and if straight out, doesn' pull the outhaul down. Mine is at 45%, but that is my best guess of what it should be.

As a backgrounder, I have a loose footed main so there is no slider under the kringle (maybe there should be), and that may make some difference in this regard.

I have found jam cleats for the quick reef very unreliable (maybe the wrong jam cleats), but a cam cleat might work. Frankly, once that puppy is pulled in, I don't want it to surprise me and let go when the wind is really howling.

I don't think lazy jacks would make any difference, and, in fact, might get in the way.

I too have reef tie lines on the sail. Although they pretty up the sail when reefed, they are functionally irrelevant according to the pros.

As for the the full length battens, I don't know what difference they would make. But what does make a difference is that the battens be mounted on the sail horizontal to the boom (SORC), and not perpendicular to the leech.

[Tony G]

Theis
If you want some adjustment of the outhaul when reefed you could mount a short length of track on the aft end of your boom for the cheek block to ride on. If you line up the forward end of the track with the reef clew, any position of the cheek block on the track would be varying degrees of lead angel. I think you would have to make any 'adjustments' to outhaul location(cheek block)prior to loading the system. Though I've never had the chance to use this system it seems like a logical set-up to me. If I don't get the chance to remodel the main on 113 I'll try it out and let you know how it works. Tony G

[Theis]

Tony: That is a great idea. If you do it, or if someone else has done it, I'd like to know what angle you use. I would guess the line angle would be closer to 60 degrees between vertical and horizontal at the cheek blockl than 45 (more downward force than outward force) - but I don't know. At 45 degrees, as mine is now, with a 2:1 purchase, the kringle does not come as close to the boom as I would like. But then with 60 degrees, although it might come closer to the boom, but the outhaul mignt not be stretched tight - and we could be back to 45 degrees - but with a fuller reefed sail (I'd like to have it as flat as possible). As I write this, it may almost be self adjusting, in which case a track would do little good - the force vectors would be largely the same regardless of where the cheek block car was located.

Does anyone have any ideas/experience on a quick way for tying/hooking the reef outhaul kringle to the boom, so that the know/hook holds the kringle to the boom, and the quick reef is only holding the kringle back, not down? Possibly an unused slider in the boom track and a reefpoint on the kringle.

A couple design considerations. I don't want to klutz up the side of the boom over the cockpit with sharp stuff that could injure someone in case someone gets hit by the boom. Secondly, it must be quickand easy. I don't want stand up and reach out to the end of the boom in rough weather. Tying reef points is about as far as I go - maybe a bit further - but that takes time.

[Tony G]

Theis
Here's a another lousy photo with the same cold weather excuse. Again, I've never had the chance to use this system so I don't have any first hand information as to its merits or faults. This is/was a Great Lakes boat from No. Chicago that was sailed ALOT so I'm going to assume it was reefed as frequently as you found the need to shorten sail. Curt, the previous owner, really loved this boat a bragged about how well everything worked on her. Of course, he was selling the boat. Tony G

ps He sold her because he bought a Hughs 38.

[marymandara]

That track-and-car setup is the mass deluxe way of setting that up, for sure! It's really nice as it lets you finetune the downhaul angle of the reef line, and allows for the logical fact that someday you may have a different main than the one you have at the time you permanently bolt a block in place.<G>
Dave

[Theis]

Tony:

That Chrismassy look, with the snow in the background is really seasonal. All you needed was a Holiday Greetings to go with the photo.

That really is a slick deal. I assume the cheek block at the end of the boom is for the outhaul? Soes that mean there is no leverage or, said differently, a one to one deal?

Lastly, you mentioned you picked up the boat in North Chicago. Is that the one that was owned by the Sea Scouts, and has the raised cabin?

[Tony G]

That little 1" block IS the outhaul block. I think I'd like to replace it with something with more leverage, bigger purchase, since we're thinking loose footed main (hopefully with full battens and cars(please, Santa,PLEASE!))and we'll need it.
Even with a new or recut main, I think I'll keep the reefing hardware allready there. It seems to be installed with sound mind and reasoning.
I bought 113 from a retired Navy man who kept her moored at the Great Lakes Naval Training Center. He bought her from a Chicago judge who, I beleive, kept her at the Chicago Yacht Club and named her 'Hindsight'. I don't know the history any farther back than that.

[Theis]

FYI, the purchase on my outhaul for my loose footed main is 6:1, and I pull that puppy pretty tight. I also have a slider riding in the boom slot attached to the clew to hold it down.

Thanks for the update. I used to be out of Chicago and don't remember seeing it in the late 60s and early 70s. But then, I wasn't looking for another Ariel.

[Brendan Watson]

The reefing method on my Commander's main is basically the same. The only difference is that
the 1/8" stay-set, line is run externally down the boom through small pad-eyes to the cleat on the
boom. This arrangement works well as the main halyard, reefing line and topping lift are all
conviently situated to one another around the mast step. Simple and effective.
As for the need for doubled up purchases or even winches on the reefing line, try loosening the main sheet,
dropping the main with the boom slide-stop in the middle of it's travel and then raise the
topping lift so that the reef tack and the boom are at near the same height, then haul on the
reefing line. Now, with the tack right down to the boom haul on the main sheet and behold a
perfectly reefed main. The topping lift and it's raising of the boom makes child's play out of the
usual, outhaul- tension, problem. As long as the gooseneck slide is under tension in the
middle of the track the reefed sail can be tuned with mainsheet, halyard and downhaul.

I think the sheave on a track set up is so that more ideal outhaul sheeting angles are available
for multiple reef points with the use of a detachable tack hook on a single line set up. I must
say I'm not crazy about the idea of trying to work at the end of the boom in a blow. The 1/8"
line does not deform the main in all but the lightest of air.
Merry X-Mas and Cheers, B.
Commander#215

[Theis]

I hadn't thought about using the topping lift to raise the boom and take the vertical strain off the reefing line. That way all strain goes towards the outaul. Good idea. I assume you ease off on the topping lift after the reef line, downhaul and halyard are set. Right?

The reason I don't have pad eyes on the boom is because of my experience with the boom inadvertenly hitting people and bloodying them (I was the one - bad experience) - so the reef line runs internal.

As for keeping the halyard taut, yeah, its great if the halyard will go up, or if I am not so pleased with having gotten the reef set that I only want to get back to the cockpit.

Thanks.

Peter

[Brendan Watson]

Peter-
Halyard tension is usually the dissapointment , if any,
when reefing the main. But you can try this- before you lower the
halyard make sure the stop on your boom track is in the middle
of the track. This way, after all is secured and you think you'd
like some more luff tension, for a flatter, de-powered sail-shape
you can lower the stop and use the down-haul. The 4-1 purchase
is positive when its blowing and gravity is your friend. This adjustment
can be done from the cockpit and is alot easier than trying to
re-tension the halyard at the mast step. I'm assuming our boats are set up
somewhat alike.

Cheers, B.
Commander#215

[Theis]

I'll have to think about that for a couple months. Although the winds are about right now for a test, it is pretty cold at the lake shore. Thanks for the suggestion.

[Dan Maliszewski]

Anybody use, or know of, the small winches on the boom to assist hauling the reefing lines along the boom when shortening sail? Or some other system? Tough to yank those lines home with any wind at all while luffing!

[mrgnstrn]

the boat I crew on for beer can wednesday's has a reefing line for the leech and one for the luff. the both lead to the base of the mast, and then to the cabintop winches.
as far as a winch on the boom, it might be better (given the circumstances) to install a jiffy reef system (harken one-line reefing or equivalent function) and lead that to the cabintop winch.
that way you can reef from the safety of the cockpit, and still have the muscle of a winch when the main is floppin' and twitchin'.

just do a dry run at the dock, and mark the main halyard with the reefed position with a majic marker. that way, if you need to reef in earnest, just drop the halyard to just below the reefed-point, cinch the reef line, and then tighten up the halyard again. 3 easy steps.

this is just my plan. I am sure there are others out there.

[Bill]

Dan, to see what km is talking about, look at some of the photos of cabin top organization. (use the search button) For example, the reefing system on Ariel #76 uses two lines that are lead to the cockpit through clutches and past a winch. Older setup and I would go with the Harken single line system if I were doing it today. BTW-you can use a double block arrangement on the reefing lines to increase purchase and do away with the winch. Same for the main halyard.

[marymandara]

A friend of ours has an absolutely beautiful Alberg 37 which is fitted with a reefing winch on the boom.

All the same, you need to bear in mind the sheer size of the A37 boom! Fitting even a small winch on the Ariel/Commander(/Triton/Wanderer-Coaster/Renegade/P26/Etc.) boom would be ungainly at best.

Basic slab reefing will work very well for you especially if you lead the reefing lines forward along the boom so they terminate near the mast, and lead the topping lift up the other side so it terminates in similar proximity...this involves doing away with the original running topping lift and replacing it with a wire line that termintaes in a 3-purchase tackle at the lower end. Have a look at a P26 or a P30 for example.

This way, everyting is at the base of the mast more or less, and it is a fairly simple (and fast) matter to reef down...take up on the topping lift, open the gate, ease the main halyard (I am a dinosaur who likes my halyards on the mast, too...), make the tack hook, harden the reef outhaul, harden the halyard, ease the topping lift. My pal has his Renegade set up just like this and can put in a reef in under 2 minutes repeatably.

Best,
Dave

[mbd]

Hey Pete, you don't by any chance have pictures handy of your reefing setup, do you? :D

[commanderpete]

I've gone through several configurations over the years. The latest is a variation of a single line reefing system.

Only the second reef is set up in these pictures.

I have a small track on the boom with a car and cheeckblock to reef the leech of the sail.

[commanderpete]

The line then goes to a block shackled to the gooseneck car and then up to the reef cringle on the sail

[commanderpete]

There is a block at the cringle which is held there with a large stainless ring on the other side so it doesn't pull through.

Then the line goes to a block shackled to the mast, then down to the deck and back to the cockpit

[commanderpete]

I was going to install cheekblocks on the boom and mast, but first I wanted to make sure it worked.

Does it work? Sort of.

In order to get a tight reef I need to slack the mainsheet, but cranking on the reefing line pulls the end of the boom up. So, it takes some fiddling and I'm not entirely happy.

I'll play with it some more next year

If I had winches on the mast I might do all the reefing there.

[mbd]

Thanks Pete! My current "set up" is a manual affair that basically needs to be done at the mooring before going out. I've been pondering a more user friendly set up.

PS. Thanks for the pics - too many words make it difficult to digest. :p

[bill@ariel231]

Pete

the block at the cringle is an interesting, is reefing on C-200 a single line solution? do you tie off the clew with a separate line? maybe this is worthy of a technical thread....

cheers,
bill@ariel231

[mbd]

From CPete's Gallery thread...


Pete
the block at the cringle is an interesting, is reefing on C-200 a single line solution? do you tie off the clew with a separate line? maybe this is worthy of a technical thread....
cheers,
bill@ariel231
Great idea Bill. I've been thinking the same thing myself. This one seemed like a good thread to bump for the discussion that was starting here in Grace's Gallery thread (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?p=16736#post16736) ...and to add more pics of reefing setups - like YOURS and Admin Bill's perhaps... :)

Good stuff!

[commanderpete]

Thanks Mike. Hopefully Bill will come along and transfer replies 130+ over there.

A diagram might be helpful. This shows a typical single line reefing system.

I used a block at the cringle to cut down on the friction a little, and also to keep the line on one side of the mast so I could keep an eye on everything while reefing.

The boom also has to slide up on its mast track during reefing, which is why I put a block on the gooseneck. It doesn't work too well so I push the boom up by hand.

Still a work in progress. So far it's not an improvement over the usual leech line + reef hook.

[Lucky Dawg]

My single-line reefing looks largely like the above. Reefing on Lucky Dawg is complicated slightly by my main's attachment to the mast via (I am going to wow you now with my vast sailing venacular knowledge) "metal thingies"/cars attached to a mast track. Such that I can flake my main under normal circumstances, I have a stopper at the bottom of the main track - which ends about 15 inches above the top of the boom. When I drop it, the cars stop there - otherwise, the whole main falls off the track when dropped. When I reef, I remove the stopper, ease the main, and then use my jiffy reefing lines to secure everything. Removing the stopper can be slightly hairy when the wind is high, but we have previously discussed the value of heaving to... If the wind drops, I need to re-thread the cars onto the track as I raise the main. I don't have cheek blocks on the mast, so I make my cunningham block and cleat on the mast below the boom do double duty to hold the reefing line down.
I have seen folks with permanently attached lines knotted through the reefing grommets. They're unsightly flopping around on a low wind day, but they seem helpful under reefing conditions.

p.s. the stopper car idea was my step-fathers - after I mentioned the annoyance of threading all of the cars onto the track at each raising of the main. I'm really not that bright. I am grateful for the suggestion. He and my mom sail a pristine Cheoy Lee Bermuda "Orient Star" from Sedgwick, Maine (previous owners pictured).

[mbd]

Reefing on Lucky Dawg is complicated slightly by my main's attachment to the mast via (I am going to wow you now with my vast sailing venacular knowledge) "metal thingies"/cars attached to a mast track. ...I have a stopper at the bottom of the main track - which ends about 15 inches above the top of the boom. When I drop it, the cars stop there - otherwise, the whole main falls off the track when dropped. When I reef, I remove the stopper, ease the main, and then use my jiffy reefing lines to secure everything.
I have the same setup as Kyle and have been wondering what others do. It looks like CPete has the same on Grace as well.

So, is it a given that you need to free up the lower slides(?) ("thingies") from the mast track so your reefing clew can be secured down close to the boom?

[Lucky Dawg]

Just a thought... Given the length of the track the boom is attached to, I imagine that the boom downhaul could be eased and in reefing, the boom could be drawn up to fill that 15" space rather than the sail being hauled down. Don't know what that does to center of effort issues (note ephemeral Physics Sugar Plum Fairies in my head - those thoughts don't last long) After a season of sailing, I'm just thinking of that experiment now. That wouldn't work with a rigid vang system.

[mbd]

In re-reading Pete's description, that sounds like what he does...


...The boom also has to slide up on its mast track during reefing, which is why I put a block on the gooseneck.

[commanderpete]

Yeah I drop the slugs off. Otherwise the sail is too bunched up

[bill@ariel231]

Mike, et.al.

A-231's reefing system is similar to Commander Pete's "Grace", but set up for operation from the mast.. here's that earlier drawing edited to show Periwinkle's system:

In my case, a pair of cheek blocks are located at the end of the boom, the reefing line passes from them through the sail and back to the boom where it is tied with a bowline. Each successive pull on the reefing line is secured with a cam cleat while i'm taking it in. Once the new tack is down, the reefing hook is used to grab the cringle and the halyard is retensioned. finally the reefing line is secured on the cleat.

I like this system for several reasons, 1. I'm always at the mast for this operation on all of the boats i sail, 2. there aren't a lot of moving parts, 3. the reefing line also acts as the outhaul, 4. it's scalable to much larger boats (we've used this system on alyce's dad's cape dory 33 and something very similar on a friend's Frers 40).

[bill@ariel231]

here are some close-ups of the hardware on A-231:

[mbd]

Thanks Bill! A couple of questions:
1. It seems you have a "pair" of everything;cleats, cam-cleats, blocks... One set for each reef?
2. "Tied with a bowline" - tied around your boom? So it goes from the bowline on the boom, through the reef point in the sail, down to the block at the boom end, forward through a cam cleat, then secured to a cleat on the forward end of the boom?
3. From your Gallery pages on Post #111 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=16436&postcount=111)), you've got 2 sets of cam-cleats each side of your boom. I'm assuming they're reefing related. Do you use ALL of them? Left and right handed reeefing? :D
4. In pic no. 3 above - the green flecked one running through the cheek block is your reefing line - where do the others go?

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

1. Actually i use only one side for the two reefing lines.

2. exactly. the bowline is around the boom, the line runs up to the leach on the main, back down to the cheek blocks at the end of the boom, forward thru the cam cleats then to the 6" cleat.

3 & 4. Just one side is for the reefing lines (although it's rigged as a mirror image)... the green flecked line is the topping lift, the red flecked line is my outhaul (there is a block on the clew of the mainsail).

lots of things to pull on...:D

[mbd]

Thanks Bill!


the green flecked line is the topping lift, the red flecked line is my outhaul (there is a block on the clew of the mainsail).

So... why do you have a block on the boom for your topping lift? I just tie mine off through the spot where you topping lift block is attached.

Also, your outhaul seems backwards somehow? Where do you tie the outhaul off after cranking on it?? :confused:

[bill@ariel231]

well... lets see, the topping lift is rigged for 3:1 tackle hence the schaefer block, there is a block with a becket on the topping lift above (just out of the frame).

my outhaul is shown in the artwork below (red line) it is secured at the end of the boom, passes thru a block tied to the clew on the main, back to the cheek block on the end of the boom then forward to the cam cleat and cleats (just like my reefing lines).

in the spring i should get a picture of this, it's clearer in person....:confused:

[mbd]

Actually, you've cleared it up quite nicely Bill! Thanks!

-------------------------------------------------------------

Ahhhhh! Now I know what's been bugging me all afternoon!



...the bowline is around the boom, the line runs up to the leach on the main, back down to the cheek blocks at the end of the boom, forward thru the cam cleats then to the 6" cleat.


I can't do this - I don't have a loose footed main!

[bill@ariel231]

Mike

quote mbd, "I can't do this - I don't have a loose footed main!"

actually you can if you have slugs on the foot. my current main has slugs on about 16" center. It's worked fine for me for the last 7 yrs. the trick is to see where the bowline will want to land on the boom once the main is hoisted.

my new main will be loose footed so this will get easier...

It wouldn't work if you use a bolt rope on the foot....;)

[sailorcave]

My sail has a cringle for the reefing line to pass arounf the boom. I'll try to stick a jpeg in this....

[mbd]

Great pic! You don't have another of your setup at the mast, do you?

[sailorcave]

Okay Mike - this is the other end of the boom.
Our reefing system is pretty much the same as Bill's except that our topping lift runs thru a block at the masthead. (Works as an emergency halyard too as we discovered when our wire main halyard jumped the sheave and jammed up hard).
These pics show how one sailmaker addressed the issue of the slides bottoming out on the sailtrack when reefing. Note the bottom slide is not attached directly to the sail but to a line run through some cringles. I think the pics are self explanatory (?)