View Full Version : keel voids
skylark
11-19-2003, 05:14 PM
Has anyone had any problems with water intrusion into the areas either just ahead of the rudder or at the forward end of the keel? I've heard that this is a problem for Tritons, Renegades, and Vanguards and wondered if it also affects Ariels and Commanders.
Yes, the manual goes into it extensively and I believe there has been discussion here. Use the search button . . .
walberts
11-21-2003, 07:22 PM
Yes. Haabet, hull #133 had water in the voids when I bought hter. I had her surveyed in CT and when I bought her home to MD a friend who owns Ariel #!, John Griffiths, who is a retired boat surveyor, marked the areas forward of the ballast where he thought we should drill, and drill we did.
What a heavy layup the Ariel has. No exaggeration, 2.5 " before the drill broke through to the voids. Then....a lot of water came out. Gallons.
We let the hull dry out all winter. In the spring we injected the hull with vinylester resin. John drilled two holes in each void. (He found the voids by tapping, and by use of his meter.) One hole very low, and one at the top of the void. When we filled the voids, we squeezed the resin up into them from the bottom, until it came out of the top. Then taped them off with duct tape.
One thing. One of the voids in Haabet was big enough that John didn't fill them it at once. He felt that when the resin kicked off , it could develop too much heat. It could be bad for the 'glass. So the job was done in stages.
Now she's dry and solid. Void-free.
marymandara
11-21-2003, 08:43 PM
Commander #280 had a bumpum in the leading edge that someone had filled in with bondo once upon a long time ago...then the bondo got , uh, displaced. Nuff said. Anyway, when Toby had her on the hard she weeped from there for a while.
A number of Triton have reported water pouring out when the thru bolts for the gudgeons are removed. Mine did, too. Our Triton also had a fair amount of deep blistering on the keel, in the ballast cavity area. deep ones, the kind that are coming from inside. I drilled into the keel at the appropriate spots and got a good couple gallons of water and then some out of there. When I scrubbed out the bilge, greasy nasty ookum came out these 3/8" holes.
A couple of other fellows have also cut into the foamed-in area at the trailing edge and gotten ooky stuff that might once have been the Pearson foam out. Grody and time-consuming, but it can be gouged out, replaced and reglassed.
A friend's Renegade had a keel that went clunk on a hard tack. He drilled down thru the overglassing material that covers the ballast pig and poured it slowly full of resin with the boat in the water.
Tim Lackey made the observation a while back that unfilled resin was not the strongest thing, and that some sort of matrix would be desirable.
Lore has it, and Mary's dad (who worked at Pearson's in the early 60's) confirms, that the ballast pigs were lowered in onto a bed of sawdust and floor gunk to cushion lest they break the 'glass, then more-or-less wedged in place with scraps of balsa, somebody's stolen lunch, a few empty cigarette packs and an empty pint bottle or two that needed to be hidden...that sort of thing. Officially, scraps of balsa. Probably the main thing holding most of our ballast pigs from flopping in there is the overglassing material's grip around the lifting eyes.
Plenty of sources confirm that it is very common to find water in the cavity of many boats with this kind of construction, and that it generally finds its way in thru the bilge space.
I will shortly be to that point of the project, and will be grinding out the overglassing material to gain access to the cavity. Probably make some cursory attempt at degreasing the inside with a stick and rag or similar foolishness and a couple gallons of acetone. Since I need to add a bit of ballast anyway, I'll pour in an even layer of lead shot, then resin, then shot, etc up to a certain point in added weight. That will keep the bottom end supported. For the upper area (I don't want all the weight of a full cavity, at least not on top of the shot which needs to be as low as possible) I figure on wadding up some heavy roving, soaking it in resin, and then CRAMMING it in before overglassing the whole mess again.
Once the repairs are done, I think the ultimate insurance here is to put a barrier coat on the inside of the bilge to be very sure the situation is never to be repeated in any way.
Yep, I will indeed take photos!
Dave
Triton 397
Finally found this E-mail:
From: Evpearson
To: RPhelon
Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1998 10:50:17 EDT
Subject: Re: KEEL VOIDS & WATER IN THE HULL'S FIBERGLASS LAMINATE
The Triton was molded in a one piece mold which made it extremely difficult to lay-up the section just forward of the rudder. Therefore, we made a separate piece which extended from the back end of the keel to a point below the propellor aperture. This piece was filled with urethane foam and bonded with epoxy to the bottom of the hull. Sometimes, when the boats were hauled they were set on timbers where the weight of the hull was borne by this aft section and not on the bottom of the lead keel. This caused some minor cracking and allowed some penetration of water. Some owners drilled a small hole in the forward part of this section to allow water to drain when hauled and prevent freezing. This section filled the area and provided a support for the bottom of the rudder. Otherwise, it is not a necessary part of the hull structure.
In the Ariel the heel was molded as part of the hull and foam was subsequently poured into the back of the hull to fill this deep narrow area. It was then glassed over to prevent water from getting at the foam and to allow for easier cleaning. If you think there is water down in the back of the keel, I would drill a hole at the bottom below the foamed area, drain it, reseal it, and then
redo the glass job on the interior over the foam.
Everett Pearson
Squirted in more than 5 gallons expensive epoxy befor it topped in 338's ballast keel area.
The inside of the sump and on back to the rudder post - THE INSIDE OF THE KEEL - is as naked and empty as it'll ever be in 338. The molded keel profile is pretty skinny. I can't see where any foam could possibly be. We're talking right behind the rudder post, right?
The only foam I saw was a filler for the inboard propeller hole, which was full of water in 338, which is an OB model. And, of course, the foam filler under the gascan deck in the laz, which was also soaking wet.
Way down in the narrowest part of the keel - looking at it from inside - there is a curving sweep of fiberglass to fair the bottom and bring the bilge water forward to the sump. I have assumed that this relatively tiny volume was just a fill to cover the mess there must have been when the molders where finished stuffing this narrow space.
It is hard to imagine any foam there. To make sure, I'm going to take a 12" bit and do a couple of probes - from the inside.
My rudder shoe (we're into the tird year OUT of the water) still weeps a few drops out a couple of the pins that holds it on, along with the polysulfide. I'ld expect the filler to be pieces of mat and cloth not plasticised very well. Not foam.
I would like to see exactly where this foam hole is supposed to be. Anybody else doing a bareboat remodel - this strange admission by Everett should be explored and located by moore of us.
When you drill straight up directly underneath the keel you'll find a lot of thickness. Some will be the hull layup, some will be jammed in filler.
Drilling through the side of the hull, even way down deep, as when 338 was having its keel void filled, I found a hull that was AT MOST 3/8" THICK. This is 338, a later hull.
Did take the 1/2" bit and drilled 3 holes into the narrow part of the keel behind the sump. Went in an inch and a half each and got only green/white tailings out of the holes. Drilled into the lower part under where the propeller shaft would go if 338 had one. The area is stepped and sloped to get bilgewater to drain to the sump at the end of the ballast under the companionway. Given the narrowness of the area, there is very little volume in the buildups.
I looks like the fill is solid plastic and glass. Which is stronger and gooder. I'ld rather have that there than bloody foam!:cool:
bill@ariel231
02-01-2006, 01:56 PM
Have you checked to make sure the keel void isn't filled with water? The void should be able to hold somewhere around 40 gallons of water (at 8 lbs per gallon)
bill@ariel231
wholey mackerel bill. 40 gals? Whatz that, 4/5ths of a 55 gallon drum?
Maybe that's the volume of the cavity the lead sits in.
338 had 5 plus gals epoxy injected into the voids around the lead.
After the water was drained out.
Have you checked to make sure the keel void isn't filled with water? The void should be able to hold somewhere around 40 gallons of water (at 8 lbs per gallon) Egads! I'll echo Ebb's sentiment on that one! I had one little spot that showed up in my survey as a "keel void", but am under the impression it's no big deal - and certainly not 40 gallons worhth! (I hope.) Maybe you mean the bilge? Ebb's 5 gallons even sounds like a lot to me.
Ebb, I remember the "pig" thread - it wasn't I that was sumpless. And I will have more sump before the boat is back in the water. :)
Mike,
Unless you had David Pascoe do yor survey, some guy in pressed chinos tapping the keel isn't going to give you squat on the condition of the keel cavity aka encapsulated ballast. I've gone on ad nauseum about my experience, which was a shocker, with diatribes on the survey person, the cousins Pearson and the farmers who built 338. :D
I mix epoxy almost exclusively in graduated quart containers. It was a long process filling syringes and injecting on weekends - but I kept a tally pretty well. There were spills and I know I missed a day of counting. I would put the count closer to six gallons of expensive laminating epoxy.
It just kept going in. Come back the next wkend, and it just kept going in.
Epoxy appeared in the sump at one point (was fortunate to have caught it). The matt seal encapsulating the cavity under the cabin sole was not turned down at the end of the lead into the sump by the workers.
This may have been designed, don't know of course, but it did have the benefit of keeping the cavity drained for 40 years - as long as the sump was pumped. When I first drilled drain holes into the hull outside water came out but not much - I thought the cavity wasn't very large, then.
I think it is a good upgrade for the boat. There may be a better method.
Epoxy was pushing water out til the end. This blind method has no prep to it so it is likely the epoxy fill is not sticking to anything. and has little strength since it has no fiber. A method should be developed that would force epoxy with some filler in it (flox) into the cavity under pressure.
bill@ariel231
02-02-2006, 09:22 AM
I'm doing this from memory, someone with a tapemeasure and a boat nearby needs to double check the dimensions...
the void aft of the ballast is roughly 40" long, 8" athwartships and approx 24" from the bottom of the keel to the bilge.
in cubic feet... 3.25x0.75x2.0 = 4.875cu
at 7.481 gal/cu that's 36.47 gallons ...or... approx 290lbs of water.
when I opened the keel during the original demolition, the foam was 100% saturated. With the bottom of the keel cut away, it took a full year to dry out.
In the succeeding years, I've occasionally drilled the cavity with a 1/4 inch bit to check that it is still dry.
bill,
Here's one place photos would help.
In 338 the ballast keel extends from the main cabin bulkhead to the sump under the companionway. (Ebbs gallery page 12, 167 and 170) The whole bottom of the 'water tank' in 338 is the top of the ballast. With the original 'encapsulating' matt over the lead.
With the cabin sole in place (also page 12) there is a long wedge shaped volume (it's a 32 gallon tank as made). Is this where your foam is?
On 338 the whole bottom interior of the hull was left empty. From the companionway bulkhead aft there is space that narrows considerably toward the rudder. All of this is directly under the cockpit. Don't believe there should be any ballast or weight carried here. There might be foam put here to fill in the narrow crevice.
The problem with urethane foam is that it is not really closed cell and water will get in eventually. Might have a drain hole into the bottom of the foam aft of the sump so that it will remain drier at the bottom.
We have had discussion here of foam added to this space under the cockpit.
In fact Everett admitted to this dastardly deed. But this is not the water in the encapsulated ballast keel problem where the lead is.
Just as I was resizing a couple of my survey pics, Ebb piped in. This is what I've been calling a "keel void".
...and the bilge/sump. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Looks like the correct nomenclature for the photos . . . although voids in the keel are also found elsewhere. :) A few hours searching the subject should turn up all the locations discovered by various owners. :D
Somebody else should pipe in here.
I would call that the sump,
but on 338 'they' sloped that skinny area there, in the photo, up some so that water would stay more or less right at the end of the lead ballast. So that 338's sump. It's narrow but has a bottom - how far down to the actual bottom of the keel I don't know, but it's close. It's probably a good idea to have access to the bilge pump just behind the c'way ladder.
Pg 12 (Ebb's Gal.) #169, the right hand photo shows the under cockpit view of this sump area.
The small bulkhead is built against the end of the lead ballast.
The cockpit drains and thruhulls have been removed, so you can't reference with them.
bill@ariel231
02-02-2006, 10:43 AM
Interesting. The bilge on 414 appears to be deeper aft than a231 by about a foot aft. The low point in A231's bilge is directly under the companionway steps.
ebb, I see the 32 gallon water tank you are talking about (nice job there by the way). The foam filled void on mine is the region beneath the aft portion of your water tank.
Judging from the photos in 414. It would be interesting to drill a hole at the bottom of the chalked circle and see how much water runs out. The foam filled keel void i'm talking about is a trapazoidal volume shown in yellow below:
ps. For A-231, I'm in the process of adding an inspection port below the engine that will allow me to check the false keel volume annually without drilling a hole in the keel.
From what I've seen in other threads, there appears to be a lot of variability in the construction of this area from boat to boat.
Neat and useful picture Bill. I was thinking that's what you were talking about with the "keel void".
Judging from the photos in 414. It would be interesting to drill a hole at the bottom of the chalked circle and see how much water runs out.I'll try and remember to measure and post when I get around to doing it.
Another good point about having the bilge pump more accessible. It's a real pian now. I have to dangle upside down through the cockpit hatch and yank it up by the hose now.
That must be Everette's Folly, or a DFO's.
Thanks for the great graffics!
The sump in 338 is right at the end of the ballast in your pic. Untill I walled it off you could see and touch the lead. Golly! ;)
So that's pretty low down.
So it gets kind of narrow. (The sump hole has also been epoxy reinforced which decreases volume a bit.) You could fit in the bottom a small electric pump with no room for a float switch. So 338's electric pump cannot be a submersible.
Filling in with foam under the cockpit, as you show, would leave very little room for real bilge water.
But it looks like you could fairly easily excavate a suitable cavity in the foam and line it for an automatic bilge pump. :D
eric (deceased)
02-11-2006, 04:57 PM
how do you know the area being injected was dry? what I used was seagoing epoxy-I filled calking gun tubes--dont recall how much was used....but water kept coming out to no end----I have found that on all full keel fiberglass boats---the area just fore of the rudder shoe----no matter what type of boat---always had crazing----with water seeping out for weeks---- jus'go to any long term haul out yard---this particular area is subjected to all the turning forces---its bound to be a vulneral place on any size boat.thats why I replaced the wrist pins with bronze bolts---not only on the shoe but on the goudgeouns and pintles.one good way to be sure the area is dry is to leave the boat in the desert for a few weeks or months.I remember the mojave desert to be very arid in deed---and the heat----
You can't know can you?
And if anybody can think of a way to dry in there wihout mortifying the boat I'd like to know too.
338's hull had every opportunity to dry out -and then I drilled the drains - and it sat around some more. You try to imagine what floor sweepings and pieces of balsa Pearson put down there when they placed the lead and after four decades of soaking in weird bilge cocktails what kind of pudding it all became.
The reasoning was to replace the void with something and lock the ballast up. Shouldn't really have a loose long ton of lead in the bottom of yer boat. I have a feeling that most laminating epoxies are not unhappy with damp. It should flow fairly well into all empty space and setup as well. But using epoxy in there increases the chance that it is really encapsulated and maybe that helps keep water out of the laminate.
And I feel better knowing (assuming) the boat in the yard is sitting on something hard.
Probably could force hot air thru the void/ballast with extra holes in the hull drilled in the 'corners' of the ballast cavity. Maybe a commercial dehumidifier could be used. You then may get a better afinity to the surfaces and junk on the inside of the hull if it was drier - but I don't think anything is going to actually bond together really.
eric (deceased)
02-12-2006, 11:45 AM
or any other desert will dry it out but good.another possible way would be to chase the water out with acetone
Theis
02-17-2006, 03:03 PM
A bit of a different take on this issue. Ariel #82 had been laid up for many years with water in the bilge. When it was rehabed, I found that a large chunk of glass was missing from under the bulb at the forward end of the keel, leaving the glass exposed. This likely was caused by frequent groundings on the rocks of the Great Lakes, but it may have been caused by winter freezing. The exposed glass was a yucky brownish color.
I drilled holes near the rudder post as suggested in the Manual and found brown moist foam, but little water came out.
Before I floated #82 again, I laid it over on its side, and midway along the keel, an inch or two from the bottom, drilled a 1+" hole and filled the hollow area with about 3 gallons of resin. Because the boat was on its side, the resin likely wound up on one side of the lead, all the way between the bottom of the keel and keel cap under the bilge. The reason for only doing one side of the keel cavity was that I wanted to leave plenty of expansion room for the lead within the keel cavity.
I then plugged the hole at the bottom of the keel with a removable plug.
I have had significant trouble with the holes I drilled near the rudder post. Moisture leakage from the inside (assumedly retained by the foam) has continued to pop the glass primer (although, now with several years behind me on this project, that problem seems to be largely cured).
However, when I take the boat out for the winter, and pop the drain plug, water still comes out, and it is more than a dribble. Perhaps a quart - perhaps a gallon - who knows.
So for those that are in areas that freeze, drain the keel at the bottom. If the keel cavity has already been cracked by freezing, don't worry about it any more because the keel will drain by itself assuming you find brown stains at the forward end of the keel.
Theis,
Next time you're out for a while,
while the boat is still upright,
drill some holes at the top of the ballast
and maybe fill the void from the top ?
Intrigued by 'expanding lead'
I think 338 has regular ole lead lead.
Robert Lemasters
02-17-2006, 04:11 PM
Just how bad is this water in the keel void issue? My Commander had one very small weeping spot half way up from the bottom of the keel ... to were the hull flairs out ... noticed it when I pulled my boat for repairs. It weeped for a few days. My boat was somewhat flooded from deck damage, the bilge pump had stopped working though the battery still had a good charge left. :confused:
The manual contains a major discussion on this problem.
skylark
02-17-2006, 06:31 PM
Thanks Bill. I've got many pages of info on this from other 60's boats websites and forums, too, but there always seems to be more that comes up with further discussion.
Fred
Theis
02-18-2006, 04:46 AM
The expanding lead issue: Good old Lead Lead, as with any metal, has a different coefficient of expansion than fiberglass - i.e. it expands and contracts at a different rate than fiberglass. I don't know the specific amount of the difference but it is more, I believe.
When the lead is relatively loose in the keel cavity that is no problem because there is plenty of space for the expansion. However, when the entire cavity is solid around the lead, and, in warm weather (whatever that means, in as much as the is an issue by iteself, since resin heats when it is curing), the lead expands faster than the surrounding glass/resin, something has to give, and it won't be the lead. Rather, it may be that the cavity will split - perhaps not by much, but something has to give.
Somewhat the same issue arises with freezing water in the cavity, particularly in very cold weather. Ice expands as it gets colder. The fiberglass contracts. Something has to give, andit won't be a block of ice that compresses. When the water is encased in foam, as it is in the stern, the foam MAY compress to absorb some of the ice expansion or keep the ice somewhat slushy because of the interlaced foam. But when it is a soid block of ice as it is around the keel, there will be no compression of the ice. Fortunately the lead contracts when cold, so that may provide space for some of the ice expansion.
So the answer to the question of filling in the entire cavity with resin is "Why take a chance". So there is water in the cavity. Who cares. Just be sure to drain it as one of the chores of the winter layup.
Theis,
If yer talking about a delicate watch or a coffee pot, expansion is an issue.
If the lead ballast in 338 was dropped in at shop temperature (80 degrees) 40 years ago and is now suspended in liquid (40 to 70 degrees) - if anything it has shrunk a 1/16 of in inch in length, 1/128 of an inch in width.
Being a massive chunk of metal I can't imagine (I can't imagine a lot of things) a ton of lead changing its dimensions very much. The change in temperature to get the lead to change dimension would have to be significant - let's say 100 degrees from datum.
When would that happen?
I think that encapsulating the lead (non-scientifically) is perfectly safe. (Of course I do, since I did it!)
If the boat is going to stand on its keel anytime in the future it would be a great deal better for the weight of the boat to sit on a SOLID foundation. That's just my opinion.
There is certainly more arguement for immovable ballast if the boat will ever spend time on one tack or in bad wave action as a cruiser. From the standpoint of running aground and damaging the encapsulated ballast keel area it may eliminate leak potential if the hull gets gouged. Doesn't guarantee it, just increases margin. This is an area that cannot be repaired from the inside.
I also have the feeling that if there is any environmental expanding and contracting the whole boat is going to be doing it. Lead is a non-corrosive, pretty inert, element unless you've turned it into a battery by carrying acid around in your bilge. Then you'd have a bloating problem :D
Something to seriously think about:
I've gotten some Sanitred product to test on the boat. One of the products is a LIQUID polyurethane that will cure at ANY THICKNESS. (Will set up in the container like epoxy.) Maybe this rubber which cures tuff but pliable would be just the filler for the spaces between the lead and the hull in your boat. To preserve an A/C, I think it is important to keep water out of the laminate* - along with the reasons mentioned above if the boat goes offshore. There can't be any arguement for doing nothing about it....when you are renovating and have the boat out.
*I also argue in favor of SEALING (barrier coating) below the waterline with epoxy or vinylester outside and inside.
There are NO ONGOING TESTS ON 40 YEAR OLD LAMINATES that I am aware of. It is prudent to keep water (especially salt water) out of polyester laminates until such tests are published. We are dealing with first-ever materials in first-ever applications that never have been adequately explored in terms of longevity, soaked or dry, stressed or not stressed. :eek:
Theis
02-18-2006, 05:51 PM
Your idea of a pliable neoprene type filler is the ultimate solution, in my opinion. That solves the problems both with ice and resinas a filer.
I do understand that the lead contracts after it is poured. But I don't think the pig is poured into the cavity. Is it? I suspect the lead is solid when it is inserted into the cavity.
In terms of expansion, my concern is not principally with a half inch gap in the hull do to expansion, but a hairline crack around the cavity where the lead isl - most likely not even visible, but pourous to water - and weakening the cavity - and the hull.
Your comment about electrolysis with salt water is particularly interesting If the lead was surrounded with salt water (and to a much lesser extent with fresh water), you possibly have a lead acid battery, the bolts or water in the bilge being one contact surface and the water around the lead being the ground. What does that do? I don't know. Or do the bolts in the keel make a particularly good grounding plate when the lead is surrounded by lake/ocean water?
Aye! The lead was not more than 80 degrees when put to bed!
A thick matt and polyester comforter has kept it cozy across the top for decades - Everet and Carl knew that it would not only keep it from moving but also thicken the hull and soften and widen the stress zone where the baulk of lead stops and empty bilge begins.
[338 has further immobilized the ballast with floors (miniature bulkheads) and epoxywork under the cabin sole that in theory, anyway, may help to transfer stress up into the turn of the bilge (a strong shape in itself) in a kind of box beam. I visualized that same imaginary dotted line on the hull you have - and asked, what if the bottom got whacked just so - it could snap it off like a scored brick. The top of the lead could shear itself and the bottom off. There is in 338 only 3/8s of an inch thickness to the hull there. Holding half the weight of the whole boat. Rough sea, rough grounding. Augh ohhhh!]
Interesting, neoprene has been around forever, but I've never seen it in a liquid form?
Mike Goodwin
02-19-2006, 04:43 AM
Your comment about electrolysis with salt water is particularly interesting If the lead was surrounded with salt water (and to a much lesser extent with fresh water), you possibly have a lead acid battery, the bolts or water in the bilge being one contact surface and the water around the lead being the ground. What does that do? I don't know. Or do the bolts in the keel make a particularly good grounding plate when the lead is surrounded by lake/ocean water?
You need sulfuric acid to make a lead /acid battery . Water dilutes acid and suspended minerals further to weaken the effect .
Theis
02-19-2006, 05:55 AM
Mike: I don't know if you need sulfuric acid specifically, or any acid (I think it is the latter). My thought is that when water that is in contact with the resin turns acidic, and sulphuric acid is not a unique requirement, you would create a battery - perhaps not the best, but still a battery. At a minimum the lead would have a conductor with a lot of water surface area to act as a ground for the the spars and lifelines.
Ebb: Your comment about the keel cracking off, in its entirety, is one that has concerned me (particularly considering the abuse and pounding #82 has had) and at least used to concern the insurance industry, as I understand their concern for insuring older boats. The issue is whether aging fiberglass/resin crystalizes and becomes brittle. In other words, if something "taps" it, does it shatter like the side windows of a car. My understanding is that the concern has been disspelled by the "experts". At least I have never heard of a hull snapping like that, although I have heard of bolted-on keels falling off, and the weights on fin keels falling off.. Any insight or comments?
no insight, damn!
Some time ago found on net something about tests done by the Navy on some old glass barges they had presumably still floating around somewhere.
They were still in good shape - probably had laminates 6" thick.
But have you heard of any controlled long term experiments on polyester/glass structures?
Me neither. I would think, tho, that the A/Cs are made of 'pre-engineered' materials ie are thicker and simpler and less adulterated.
Would be great if tests were made on hull laminate from the '50s and early '60s from a sailboat headed for the chainsaw. Tests designed to show bending and twisting strengths, continual immersion, salt and marine life intrusion, "crystalization". separation or delaminating resistence, shock loads, point loads, etc.
OR PUT THE WHOLE BOAT THRU OUTRAGEOUS TESTING. Drive it at 8 knots into pilings or a concrete wall. CRASH TESTS. (I'd personally like to find out how a deck to hull butt joint lasts for 40 years, Not the Triton.) No, you're correct, we want to find out about the aging plastic and fiberglass!
Good Ole Boat might fund the study. Maybe there are some funds available. Maybe Pearson could be persuaded to fund third party engineered tests of an early Triton or Ariel? We are rapidly approaching the half century anniversary of production glass boats.
I dun know, can't just ASSUME a plastic classic is going to go on forever, right? You know plastic is an organic compound, it's going to compost sometime.
You got something there, Mike! Let's make an AGM! :D
Have to cut off the polyester lid from the lead (can't be stuck on there too good), lay on the stuffing from an old sleeping bag, drill in some terminal posts, pour on a couple gallons white vinegar, and seal it back up, Gottcher self a POWER cell, ma friend! Last a hunnert years!
Robert Lemasters
02-19-2006, 12:38 PM
As a young lad I worked for Wall Rope in Beverly N.J. as an extrusion technician back... before I was drafted, what deferments? The company made synthetic and natural ropes of all sizes and twists. I remember an engineer from Dupont who we bought resin from, comment that some of thier synthetic resins would last hundreds of years then each man made carbon atom (velance band with more electrons then natural) would fail/ come apart (atomic memory) at about the same time from thier manufacture. These synthetic materials have a life span and the clock begins to tick the moment that they were created. :eek:
To paraphrase a well known media doc who said last night on the TV, there is no way to stop the aging process, our only option is to go with grace. A number of disappointed old folks in the audience didn't want to hear that.
We all remember fiberglass corrugated panels we put over a porch or greenhouse - after a while we notice the sun side has gotten rough and spotty and hairy with glass because the UV ate the plastic, along with whatever else eats plastic in the environment.
Imco you have to keep the gel coat happy on an A/C, it protects the laminate underneath, and the protection is probably the cosmetic pigments alone.
A new paint job would help protect the substrate better than anything.
One partially exposed edge is the hull to deck joint. Under the half round the joint is imco vulnerable to degrading / aging.
Keeping salt water out of the laminate is also important, as we have seen some hulls sustain chemical reactions, some very serious because of incompletely catalyzed plastic in the laminate. Seems unlikely after four decades that there are any reactionary chemicals in the wet layers of an A/C hull - BUT, we don't know. Barrier coating a dry boat outside and keeping a dry bilge will help keep the knackers at bay. Wouldn't you think?
What if the chemical bond of the polyester just decides to go soft one day or turn into dust....? :eek:
But when grinding on old green tabbing and laminate inside, the odor of styrene smells just as pungent as if it had set up yesterday!
Amber, which is fossilized resin, doesn't age perse. Actually, it does, I believe, continue to slowly crosslink or polymerize. (it's ALIVE, ALIVE!!) I wonder how its structure differs from polyester resin?
Robert Lemasters
03-14-2006, 07:21 AM
ebb, I have used Larch resin in aritst's oil paint formulations for restorations and to imitate the quality of old master oil paints, it seems that this natural resin plus others such as Canada balsam are very nealy the same as acrylic resin (spectographicaly). When I replaced the stainless steel rub rail I filled the many gaps in the seam where the hull meets the deck with West System mixed with filler for strength. My father who worked for Rohm & Haas thought that some of thier resins would last as long as amber with the same rate of discoloration or yellowing. When I repaired the hull on my boat the inside of fiberglass seemed like new, I bet these boats will last beyond our imagination and be used by who or whatever is around then, maybe fishermen living in mud huts along some shoreline that dos'nt exist yet, Ocean front in Kansas City. :confused:
That line from Tennyson, a voyager in the ocean of song.
A biologist writes:
"... Though it grows well on a limestone subsoil, it is on sloping mountain sides, where the oldest rocks of the earth's crust crumble into crystalline fragments over some brawling beck that tumble through the glen, that the Larch is seen in its greatest beauty. ...."
How often does a biologist resin poetic about a conifer? His/her alliterative prose gets the heat going on a wonderful high forest lone tree. Marvelous you can use its pungent resin for art restoration. Can dream that two part plastic aspires to similar restoration. Not only of a rare Ariel but the poor schlep's itchy soul.
Robert,
Some time, perhaps, perhaps in the distant future,
a space travelor will come upon a fully rigged Ariel on a cosmic rhumb to a far galaxy... :D
Commander 147
06-09-2009, 05:14 PM
The foam in the keel of my commander (in the area behind the lead ballast) appears to be water logged. It continues to drain and leach through the keel for what has now been probably over a year since it was last in the water. I need to get this keel dry so I can stop blisters from forming. Has anyone here ever cut in from the top and removed the foam and then replaced it with something else less likely to hold water And preferably less expensive and lighter than solid epoxy?
The previous owner has been fighting the problem for the last 12 years. I want to fix it once and for all. I believe the water is seeping in from the sump area where the glass covering the keel void is cracked. See picture below.
The manual discusses pumping in epoxy through holes drilled in the keel (which I have drilled to try and drain the water) but what happens to the foam when you pump in epoxy? does it melt into goo or does it retain it's current state and if so how do you ever get all the water out of it?
Advise would be appreciated.
Check out Tim M's thread on A-24 beginning at post #15. He had some foam in his bilge as well...
http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1558
bill@ariel231
06-09-2009, 06:26 PM
it took me several seasons to fix this issue for good. tim (A-24) highlights many of the big issues (fractures in the rudder fittings are a big source, as is crazed fiberglass and fractures from previous groundings).
my other water entry point was the factory glasswork in the bilge. The cracked glasswork in your photo reflects the same condition A-231 had when we started. two layers of 6oz glass in the bilge fixed my leaks. One other problem area i found is under the cabin sole in the vee berth. the glass work on A-231 was essenitially unfinished at the forward most part of the bildge (under the vee berth). therefore whenever i washed down the bilge, some of the fresh water from the hose got into the keel void. Fixing A-231 in this area required a skill-saw to get access for the repair. the good news is the problem can be detected with a dental mirror, so surgery is only necessary for the repair not for diagnosis.
for A-231, drying my foam for good was a multi season effort. my bilge now sports a fresh water deck fitting to allow me to check the keel void seasonally while dockside and pump out any offending water if it showed up. knock on wood, it's been dry down there since 2003.
each of the fixes outlined on A-24's page (and here) are each easy, determining where the water is coming from take some time.
cheers,
bill@ariel231:)
Commander227
06-09-2009, 07:15 PM
....IMHO.... So a little water gets in your keel cavity, big deal, its not hurting anything. (unless its seeping in from the keel and seeping out into your bilge and sinking your boat) Live and let live I say. I have chased this problem on many Ensigns, Sea Sprites and the like and become callused to it. Fix the obvious problems and drill a hole in the bottom to let the water out in the off season, fill it with MarineTex before launch and color it good.
Why not take the bloody foam out?
It's never going to dry because it is probably urethane, so it's a sponge.
If interior water is compromising your hull, and you want to barrier coat, etc. you got to remove it.
To drain foam filler by drilling thru the hull from the outside is really not smart.
I'm not familiar with the Commander. If the keel is like the Ariel it has encapsulated lead in it without foam added by the factory. Because the area is supposedly inaccessable drilling holes here in the hull is done to drain the space the ballast lead does not fully take up. A few people have incorporated a spigot in this area to drain the boat when on hard. I don't like this idea either. This is another kettle of clams.
What you have is something imco not connected to the ballast keel. Altho it may be by chance.
As you know the encapsulating process inside was sometimes not done well.
Classic case is that encapsulation did not continue down the back of the lead.
This where your foam filler is?
Isn't it just an cosmetic addition to bring the bilge up to a convenient level?
Take it out!
You'll have a deeper narrower bilge.
You'll be able to keep your eye on any water gathering there.
It's the deepest part of the boat.
All water will drain there.
And if you loose you socks down there, you reach in and pluck them up, it's not that much deeper.
The Ariel/Commander hulls are not known for blistering.
It certainly is not likely NOW after 45 years in the water.
You won't get classic modern blistering because the boat wasn't made with cheap polyester.
Only thing that might blister is the bottom paint.
It is a good idea to barrier coat the hull, water does get thru polyester.
I personally did not notice that the hull from the waterline down was in any way waterlogged when A338 was deconstructed.
It may have watervapor in it.
IMCO as always.
Commander 147
06-10-2009, 04:05 AM
mbd
The link to Tim M's thread was helpful. I believe the foam in my keel is the same as he had in his but my has been glassed over the top.
bill@ariel231
You have given me some specific things to look for and I will check each one to stop water from coming into the keel.
Commander 227
In this case the water is doing damage. It is causing blisters and the current batch are not the first time. See the attached picture showing where I have started sanding through the bottom paint and barrier coat to see the evidence of a prior attempt to repair the blisters.
ebb
I'm totally on board with what you suggest. I need to get the foam out of the hull and get things dried out so I can stop the blistering and keep this hull from getting any worse.
A question for everybody
Someone else suggested that after I get the old waterlogged foam out of the hull, get it dried and sealed from leaking that I pour in closed cell 2-part polyureathane foam that will not absorb water, will add buoyancy, will fill the cavity so next to no water can reside there. The link is below. I'm torn on this part and would like your opinions. I'm leaning towards not putting anything back in there. Then I can see if any water is getting in or not and not have to guess.
http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=7896
bill@ariel231
06-10-2009, 05:38 AM
the two part foam will work just fine (as long as the water entry points are sealed, otherwise you will be repeating the fix again in 5 - 10 years).
if you go the two part foam route... be careful how much you mix on one batch. The stuff expands like crazy. I've used it to create a mould for a large bronze casting with some success. The foam will oil-can the container (or boat) if you use too much at one time. I've seen a small powerboat where the owner used too much, too fast and ended up pushing the deck out of position. ;)
cheers,
biill@ariel231
Commander227
06-10-2009, 07:24 AM
Jerry,
Your boat will displace the same amount whether or not there is foam in the keel, so it would only add buoyancy if the boat is swamped and there is not enough there to save her in that case. I am of the firm opinion that there is not a expanding foam that will not eventually absorb water. There has been much discussion on this in the Ensign fleet. People have been replacing the saturated expanding foam flotation from Pearson with new closed cell expanding foam and having their boats gain hundreds of pounds five + years later and suspecting the new foam of absorbing water. Some people now pull out the foam and replace the flotation with 2 liter pop bottles. Also, I can't tell much from the picture, but I would suspect an improper bottom job of causing the blisters before I would suspect water in the keel void. These old girls generally don't have the same problems as the new production boats. $0.02
Mike
227
YES!
ABSOLUTELY!
AND Commander Mike 227 is imco also RIGHT-ON ABOUT YOUR BLISTERS.
In fact because you have observed "blisters" you should do some forensics on what was used to 'repair' your keel.
Polyester/styrene has a distinctive chemical SWEET smell when you grind on it. Epoxy will probably have low odor or a mild toasty smell.
A repair done with polyester (Don Casey notwithstanding) poses its own problems as polyester is not a glue.
Also the user is more likely to have problems with polyester. IE too much catalyst in a mix or too thick layering can cause it to cook and foam/bubble and loose integrity.
Vinylester is a hybrid and is said to stick better. If vinylester was used it will have a sweet smell. What could pass for fairing material on the repair we see in the photo, the brownish/pink stuff. could be a bondo (sweet) or an epoxy filler.
See if you have anything but solid plastic in the body of the repair. No tiny bubbles in any solid transparent plastic you find. Might look behind some of the brown stuff.
"Blisters" are a GEL-COAT problem on boats built after 1972.
Inside you have to be an epoxy genius to keep the foam dry.
If you insist on using the stuff I would go with 4 or 5 pound foam(or heavier if you can find it) because it is stiffer, more structural, and just has more urethane material - ie maybe more water resistance.
Jamestown also supplies to the construction trades. You might ask if they stock a 4 pound foam in a small kit. You will need only a miniscule amount of the kit you buy. You'll have enough to cast your own buoys - as Jamestown suggests!;)
Besides,
the stuff is toxic to use.
No matter what the label says,
FOAM IN PLACE URETHANE IS NOT CLOSED CELL.
You should find out what the blowing agent is in the two-part urethane you are getting. It's not necessarily AIR inside those bubbles! Also if there is formaldahyde in the formula. Get the MSDS, they may have cleaned up the product finally. Right!
Hey, good luck!:D
Commander 147
06-10-2009, 09:49 AM
Mike (C227) and Ebb
What you two are suggesting sounds likely. The previous owner told me he never had a problem with the blisters until he had the barrier coat done and based on e-mails between us yesterday the filler I found under the barrier coat was done at the same time. I'm not sure what the grey filler is (it's not the barrier coat because I sanded through that to get to it) but I can tell you the pink filler is dang hard to sand. As a woodworker I have sanded bondo many times over the years when I used it as a wood filler and that pink filler is not bondo. The grey filler on the other hand could be. It sands like bondo. The pink filler is like trying to sand a piece of rock so I'm thinking maybe epoxy with silica filler?
carl291
06-10-2009, 09:54 AM
I'm viewing your last photo and trying to decipher that repair, It appears the keel void was left with water in it and possibly froze while stored in VT over winter damaging the gelcoat. Or is that just a scrape that was filled with fairing or simply a layer of white paint that you had sanded through'
The void is left open and empty on my Electra, it didn't have the plywood sole over the void and things like winch handles, fishing gear etc. ended up down there, so a cover will be put in place.
I thought of using the expanding foam but that would only be a moisture magnet, or maybe surfboard foam layer of glass more foam layer of glass till filled. I've decided against all this now and simply cleaned out and glass in an inspection port.
Good Luck.
Commander 147
06-10-2009, 12:37 PM
Carl
The only gel coat I'm able to sand down to is around the repair area. That is the white you see at the perimeter of the repair. The red filler does not sand at all easy. But you may be onto something also. The gel coat I was able to expose showed a lot of crazing. See photo. I'm now starting to wonder if the foam in the hull held the water that froze in the VA winter and caused the crazing of the gel coat. That allowed water to get in and the repair was done to try and fix that issue????? Maybe????
Notice in the bottom left side of the picture the wet spots where water is leaching out through the hull.
bill@ariel231
06-10-2009, 05:35 PM
If water comes out... That is one of the places water is going in. My solution was to remove the gelcoat, drill out the pinholes, fill with thicked epoxy and cover with one layer of 6oz cloth and epoxy. No issues since then. I'm convinced this is the downside of wet foam and freeze/thaw cycles.
Goodluck
Bill@ariel231
Commander 147
06-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Well I cut in and started digging out foam tonight and I only had to go down about 6 inches to hit wet foam. The inside ot the keel is all wet which you may be able to see from this photo.
My wife came out to see how things were going and I said so-so. I told her I was getting convinced I was going to have to get the keel dried out grind everything down and resurface the keel to make it water tight again. Then I came in took a shower sat down to post what I had found and saw Bill's post. Seems no matter what I find myself up against there is already someone here that has dealt with it previously. This forum really is a good resource.
So Bill how far up did you go? To the waterline?
bill@ariel231
06-10-2009, 06:45 PM
Well..that is a long multi season story.
The leading edge of the keel and the bottom of the keel for a-231 is all new (prior collision damage).
As for places that needed grinding and epoxy resurfacing... That was mostly the keel (in particular the keel void area). There is a lot of variability in pearson's construction of this foamed in area. Early boats like a-24 seemed to be foam only no glass. Late boats are deep in the bilge area (see Mike's A414). Mine (A-231) has a lot of foam and is glassed in by the factory.
My issue with cracks and pin holes is mostly in the area where the wet foam was present. Like you I opened my keel void, cut out the bottom foot of foam, sqeezed out the water and glassed in new.
Over the last couple seasons I have used the spider cracks that formed in the bottom paint over the winter as a guide to locate areas of wet glass that need resurfacing. This was my first season with no issues at all.
So the answer for my boat was most of the keel, other areas as needed.
That crazing looks very regular and parallel. It doesn't look like impact damage, though you may factor in what the extensive original repair was reparing. If it was severe or repeated grounding on something hard then the book may have to be rewritten.
If water was frozen in the foam, I wonder how much pressure was created, The old foam may have been totally debubbled. But not likely. Can you relate the foam fill/ freeze area with the gelcoat crazing on the out side? Do they match?
The crazing looks like classic crazing. No breaks or openings in the cracks.
This is an area of this single-mold hull where spraying gelcoat down into the keel may have gone on too thick. Easy to imagine. Not an uncommon problem. This crazing may have come from the day your baby was born.
It doesn't look like the crazing as the result of flex (pretty hard to do that down there!!)
Looks to me like coarse sanding is in order and some sealing with very liquid epoxy. If I was doing it I'd use laminating epoxy (100% solids no blush, of course) and vigorously SCRUB the liquid in with throwaway bristle brushes - destroy the brushes. WIPE IT ALL OFF with a terry rag immediately and let it go off. Apply a second coat and wipe that off. When set you have sealed the crazing and you can proceed with whatever other system.
If you want a boss barrier, mix a light slurry of fumed silica and epoxy and put it on with a plastic spreader.* I like the bendy green ones. make it as smooth as you can. Now you have something you can coarsely sand for a primer or even West System's 407 fairing compound.
You're correct, that telltale red-brown could be 407 - and as you say it could have been mixed with a lot of fumed silica. Kind of defeats fairing compound's purpose, making it too hard to sand. As you notice the stuff is fine under water.
You know you can tap the hull and listen for dull thuds. That would mean you have delamination. A sound hull has a nice mellow tone. Any single dull area has to be ground down and the white damaged glass/plastic excised completely. I would tap that whole repair area. And tap the hull behind any other crazing you find. Hell, tap the whole boat!!!:D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
* Milled glass fibers is a fine powder. If you add it with cabosil (and 407 - because 407 holds the epoxy in suspension - without the fairing compound the coating will sag.) and surface with that you'll end up with armor. Like maybe your DFO did that, because he hated you.!:p Don't put it on thick.
all imco.
Bill, it's hard to believe that the polyester was so POROUS as to create a gereral weeping??? Or even that it would exit thru the cracking in the gelcoat.
How thick is your hull down there?
Not doubting what you experienced, but one has to wonder what was/is going on with Pearson's laminations on your hull?
Really is suspicious.
I think getting all the foam out and sealing the inside with epoxy and glass fabric - as you did - is the best way to fix this problem. Along with a general barrier coating of the hull.
I'm thinking that there was a third unknown whacko Pearson cousin loose in the factory at night who added that foam in the keel when nobody was looking.
Only other explanation is that is was a special order by a new owner.
bill@ariel231
06-11-2009, 05:11 AM
ebb
the side walls of my keel void space were 5/16th or so in the area where crazing and pinholes occured. i don't believe this was the initial water entry point for A-231, but once water got into the foam, a couple freeze thaw cycles got us to the point where the skin in that area was less than water proof.
cheers
bill@ariel231
5/16"?
I've just confirmed that hull thickness with a thruhull on A338!
So much for the OVERBUILT theory of early glass boats!!!
Keeping water from freezing not only in the bilge but IN THE LAMINATE is I think a new wrinkle in protecting our old gals. Have not come across any tests or experiments of water soaked plastic laminate and freezing. Haven't seen this mentioned befor in this way on the internet by anybody.
So here is the rule for when you decommission the boat for the winter;
Remove all sweet water from the bilge.
Make sure the boat stays bone dry in the bilge through the freezing cycles.
This means the owner must remove all foam in place constructions in the bilge even if they were factory installed. And do not put it back.
I've never liked the idea of water being present in the laminate. Water soaked laminate:(
Under the gelcoat freezing may be a culprit in the breakdown and weakening of the laminate throughout the hull!
In some way we don't know yet, just the presence of water inside the plastic could be bad for a boats health. It is certain that moisture can wick along glass fibers. The glass is merely encapsulated by the plastic. So "FREEZE CRAZING" need not be localized in the bilges only but anywhere in the hull!!!
It is easy to see now that when this water in the fabric is expanded by freezing that laminate can be mechanically broken down. In this scenario crazing in the gelcoat is evidence of a problem in the fiberglass.:eek:
Whether the water gets in the laminate through pinholes and imperfections in manufacturing or some aging phenomenon of the polyester itself would be good to know. Maybe it's a number of things. A number of events.
Never buy a frozen plastic boat.
Make damn sure you look for alligator crazing in the hull gelcoat.
kendall
06-11-2009, 08:15 AM
I've replaced a lot of foam in various boats, and in my opinion no foam is truly water proof, they will all absorb water sooner or later. I feel that the best way is to make it last as long as possible, and still be easily replaced is to use regular styrofoam, cut/carved to shape so it's a simple drop in, put several ayers of paint on it then put an easily removed cover over it. That way if anything happens from hull damage to waterlogged foam, all you need to do is remove the cover and pull out the foam to make the repair/replace the foam.
The pourable foam, unless poured into a plastic bag that sometimes inhibits cure, sticks to everything and is extremely hard to remove for a repair, with regular styrofoam (white bead style) you can make it in small easily handled chunks for cleaning or bilge painting.
Ken.
bill@ariel231
06-11-2009, 08:48 AM
ebb
agree 5/16th for the thinnest locations.
i"ve seen a significant variance in thickness around the hull.
1/2" to 3/4" for the thru hulls
bottom of keel was approx 1.5" inch
leading edge of keel up to 1.5" glass with up to 2" polyester resin behind that.
thin spots for A-231 are keel void aft (since beefed up).
Hey Ken,
Great idea on the styrofoam.
For those pour in place junkies why not line the hole in the bilge with wax paper? Maybe tape in some construction cardboard first to smallify the hole a bit, then the wax paper,
so the foam will come out easier.
That's a great concept for those who need lost sock convenience in the form of a BILGE PLUG. Right-on!!!
Making the plug slightly smaller might allow covering it with 6oz fiberglass so it won't get dented and waterlogged.
Bill,
I put a transducer (more like a golf club than a hockey puck) in the stem a while ago, and that may confirm your observation on hull thickness. BUT
Believe I found the stem on A338 just "turned the corner" and wasn't any thicker then the hull. However after recovering from disbelief, I really beefed up the length of the stem with many turns of tabbing, Xmatt and hairy filler.
And now I wish I had laminated extra fabric onto the OUTSIDE of the whole keel/ballast keel/bilge area as I assume you did before the barrier coat process.
Drilled a number of holes into the encapsulated ballast void for discovery and for draining water and filling with epoxy. Even down here the hull was no thicker than 5/16", maybe 3/8", on the sides. My first drain holes (from the Manual) were straight up through the bottom of the keel where there was considerable thickness (one inch maybe?) But any glass LAYERING was rather abrupt, because side drain holes low down were thru much thinner hull.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____
This has been a discussion of discovery. An important revelation we've all been involved in. Fantastic.
I'm unaware freezing stress IN THE HULL LAMINATE has been mentioned as a cause of gelcoat crazing by the mavens of info that abound the internet.
This observation may be unique. It's not mentioned in any list of gelcoat crazing causes. It's important because it may signal compromised fiberglass.
Bill has identified an important issue for owners of older fiberglass boats.
It seems laminate freezing would be especially important problem for our not very beefy hulls. I think we're talking about plastic within the laminate cracking into small pieces by freezing. Or worse. If bilge water weeps through the hull in crazed gecoat areas then this HAS to be a conclusion!
Here the Forum really informed to perfection!
{be nice if ebb wasn't so damn long winded.:o}
Commander 147
06-14-2009, 06:11 AM
I decided to see how far up the crazed gelcoat went. I started sanding a path up from the keel and the crazing goes all the way up to the top of the barrier coat and then stops dead in it's tracks at the waterline stripe. At first I thought it was maybe associated with the dark color of the bottom paint but that cannot be it since the black waterline stripe does not have any problem under it.
So what in a barrier coat would cause the crazing?????
Interesting to say the least!
Long spider lines has to mean that whatever caused the cracks was stress over the whole surface. That it STOPS at the waterline it has to have something to do with the boat being in the water.
It might have been something like the boat being in the water an extended time and then pulled out of the water to dry for a long time. Gelcoat can be thought of as somewhat porous and if - let's say - it is 'full' of water, and that water leaves suddenly there could be some shrinkage to the gelcoat that might explain what you discovered. Those long crazing lines show that the stress occurred over the whole underwater surface, which at the moment you might assume until all the below the waterline gelcoat is revealed.
Thinking of the gelcoat layer as so many millimeters thick: If the shrinkage is in the 'top' mm(s) of the gelcoat and not all the way thru to the laminate then it is a cosmetic problem not a structural one. There may be ofcourse some deeper cracks BUT NO SEPARATION from the substrate.
It has been said that proto crazing has been in the gelcoat from the time the boat was made. In other words the crazing over time opens up due to whatever stresses are put on the surface. The gelcoat is by nature a thick non-fibrous coating. Can't remember the source for the above sentance - but if it is correct that the gelcoat upon leaving the mold already has charted fault lines, then the topsides would have them also, they haven't been separated- yet.
Some suggestions:
The cause may not be all that important, if the solution is relatively straight forward. Imco you are gonna have to remove the bottom paint down to the gelcoat. There are some nearly user friendly chemical strippers that are comparatively easy but messy to use, the kind you paint on, cover with film, let sit, and scrape off. But dustless.
Take a section now of what you have discovered ands shown us in the photo and forensically sand a small section of the gelcoat down over a crack(s). Hopefully the crack will disappear as you go deeper. You want to find that there is no evidence of the specific crack going thru TO the fiberglass and absolutely NO crack IN the fiberglass. I think that is what you will find.
You want to confirm that the gelcoat altho cracked is firmly attached to the laminate.
After the bottom paints have been removed, then 40/60 grit sand the white gelcoat, not to remove, then stabilized as suggested above. Then barrier coat.
imco
Commander 147
06-14-2009, 09:01 AM
The plastic classic website when someone else asked the same question and these are the responses he got back.
http://plasticclassicforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3277&hilit=spider
Just did a quick scan of the thread. Usual stuff, no revelations imco - interesting it's a Pearson boat.
Believe I've read that the Ensign is the most active keel boat fleet in the world(?)
Could be old age (brittle) gelcoat......
But that is not the cause. Like they say, it's a symptom.
Disagree that you can just let it go. But depends on your relationship with the boat and your circumstances. We know there is an issue with moisture (water vapor at least) in the laminate. If you have the opportunity, why not, do what we know is good for the ole girl. If the boat is hauled regularly maybe a barrier coat is unnecessary.
No one talks about the crazing getting worse. But of course nobody looks very often UNDER their bottom paint at the gelcoat. Better to protect the boat and everybody agrees 'barrier coating' is an upgrade.
But something CAUSED the phenomenon.
Nobody really knows what.
A number of things could be making the crazing more severe.
My opinion is to try to do something about it.
I think stabilizing the gelcoat is the way to go.
I'm convinced that keeping water out of the laminate is the best thing an owner can do to extend the life of these boats built in the '60s.
The clincher would be that if somebody chimed in and said.
"Oh, I had that problem 10 years ago, and I stripped her and barrier coated.
Haven't had a problem since. No more crazing.
Dry as a bone.
And, you know, the boat seems a lot lighter than it used to!";)
carl291
06-14-2009, 09:52 AM
A 259 has the same problem, below the waterline gelcoat is crazed and deep crevices throughout. Above the waterline , the gelcoat appears smooth and undamaged.
View the photos in the A 259 thread.
I assumed I had a unique problem but evidently not. Well maybe it is the constant soaking and then the drying out when hauled or just the nature of bottom paints ingredients.
I don't plan on sanding off all the gelcoat, just smoothing it up, fairing he voids, sealing and painting. Hopefully someone will tell me , yeah, that's good enough:rolleyes::rolleyes:.
Some of the gelcoat appears to be 1/8-3/16" thick.
Commander 147
06-14-2009, 09:56 AM
This is what I know so far.
First the only place I had a blister problem was in the area where the gel coat had been destroyed by previous bottom jobs. And the blisters were not in the gelcoat because there was no gelcoat for them to be in. They were in the barrier coat when I sanded through that they were gone.
I believe they were caused by the trapped water in the foam inside the keel.
From what I have read fiberglass is more like wood then I previously realized. It takes on water and gives it off just like wood over it's entire lifetime. Does not matter how many coats of finish you put on wood it will still take on and give off moisture on a regular basis.
With fiberglass it is not good to seal both sides of the material and trap whatever water that is currently in it there. That can cause blisters.
So....
This is the direction I'm leaning towards in dealing with my situation.
First in the area where the previous boat yard folks blew through the gelcoat I think I should follow Bill's example and lay a layer of 6oz. cloth over that area and then fair it out. Then after any other things that need work are done (such as the keel damage done by the previous owner) I will barrier coat the entire hull below the waterline. And finally apply bottom paint.
Second I need to finish removing the foam inside the keel and leave that area open to breath so that moisture can go in and out without causing damage.
Commander 147
06-14-2009, 10:20 AM
I meant to reply to Ebb.
Carl it seems this type of thing is far more common then I would have guessed.
carl291
06-14-2009, 10:27 AM
I don't want to get caught up in definitions here, but what I viewing on your keel is not blisters. My understanding of blisters is water leaching into the laminates and being trapped. When they are "popped" they have an order of uncured fiberglass.
I think your problem is as you described over zealous sand blasting creating leaches and allowing water to flow into the keel and be trapped and then leak out when the boat is hauled. The quick fix someone threw at it failed mainly because the hull wasn't dried on the inside.
Your plan for repair as Bill231 described is I think correct and forever your problem in this area is solved. IMHO:D
Good Luck, Carl
kendall
06-14-2009, 11:26 AM
Could be a reaction to either strippers or paint itself, Saw it happen on a fiberglass hood once. Painter said it was from having too much solvent in the primer.
Just the shape and directions of the crazing makes me think it's NOT stress or impact.
Ken.
I would refer to it as surface crazing. My Commander has a lot of this kind of crazing in the cockpit area. The gelcoat is almost a 1/4-3/8th inch. I have ground out some area's for repair and found that it is confined to the gelcoat and responds well to grinding and filling.
Regarding the hull below the waterline, I haven't seen that kind of crazing, but I am still resisting total removal of the 1/8 in. layer of old bottom paint. It is removing itself in stages. Some every year. I will overcome.
John / WA1JG
Imco it is perfectly OK to seal BOTH SIDES of the hull.
If it is 'breathing' you are worried about - the hull laminate will breathe no matter what you do.
If the breathing is water transfer thru the laminate then sealing both sides is the only way to go!
There is NO proof I'm aware of that prohibits sealing off the hull from water as best you can. I'd like to read the source.
You should seal when the hull is relatively dry. Dry inside and out, No bloody foam. You might never have a bone dry hull hull. So you put your barriers on when the boat has been out of the water as long as you have time for. There are epoxies that can be applied under water. Most require a dry SURFACE. There will always be some moisture/water vapor in the laminate no matter what you do.
A properly prepared hull surface - a premium 100% solids no blush epoxy - and there will be no blisters or any action from the old polyester. BUT the argument for keeping water out of the laminate is to SEAL THE INSIDE OF THE HULL and the outside.
Rubber barrier maybe?
Taking the old paint down to the glass inside is crazy. You would do it because new bulkheads and tabbing and so forth needs a grinded clean surface.
If sealing the bilge, grinding with 36 or 50 grit and fairing by sanding is the way to go. Loose paint, gunge, old punky glass removed. Really impossible to remove the old paint. If sound it must be neutral by now!
Then paint on 3 coats of Ultra-Tuff. Probably the easiest to use, no pot life, out of the can, waterborne, no solvent urethane rubber coating on the market. Prep is everything.
DUSTLESS Hull strippers.
You certainly can find peel-and-strip environmental strippers for the bottom paint that will have NO effect on the gel coat. In fact some of these strippers will not strip epoxy primers and barrier coat already on the hull.
While the peel-and-strip might be touted as environmentally friendly (in quotes), the resulting mess can hardly be.
When I did it, I had heavy plastic film under the boat, I don't know how many gallons of thick paste on the multi layers of copper bottom paint, the paper-backed film over that. It made a large sodden pile of UNenvironmental toxic waste that thank the landfill gods was disappeared into a convenient dumpster at the yard. Not pretty.
But caustic damage to gelcoat by paint strippers is a thing of the past. You can still find those methylene chloride ones if you insist. Please don't:eek:
Lucky Dawg
11-09-2014, 06:25 PM
Drilled 3 holes in the keel void area today. Just a smidge of water oozed out - tablespoon-ish. Put the blow-end of my shop vac in the top hole and got airflow out of both of the lower holes. A little nugget of foam popped out too that was bone dry. Knocking doesn't sound like there is much more void space below the bottom hole. Might give it a go and drill below it just to see. Definitely empty space in there, but not full of any water to speak of. No harm in letting it air out for 6 months.
(water on the substrate below the keel is from manually pumping out a little leftover water in the bilge)
Kyle, What are you going to do about the space?
Could be left alone - drain plugs have been put in.
At the time I discovered THE VOID, I was upset.
Didn't like the idea that more than a ton of lead was essentially loose in the bilge.
I've talked endlessly about this - but here are a few thoughts.
Poured in 6 (probably more, lost track) gallons of epoxy. I didn't know at the time it would
end up with that many. Maybe vinylester or polyester could be used. Or concrete if it could be
made fluid enough to get in all the crans and nookies. Convinced self that epoxy, even
though the surfaces inside cannot be prepped, epoxy promises some superior qualities.
There was, still is, considerable junk in the cavity that we surmised was there to shim the casting
'in place' until the top encapsulation took place. Epoxy might cohere it better, even though it
might still be sodden.
Anyway, drilled through the hull into the cavity at the 'top' of the casting - about where the main
bulkhead is. Must have made exploratory holes to find the top of the lead. Then drilled a larger
hole to get the end of a long gas funnel to fit. Has to be loose in the hole Did the same on the
other side. Drilled small holes like yours at about the top of the lead at the lower end, both sides.
Trying to remember if I thinned the two-part laminating epoxy with xylene...to get it to run
better...can't remember. Filling the void isn't essentially structural. Doesn't take much thinner,
shouldn't use too much, getting it to flow. (Logged the experience into the Forum at one time.)
You want the mixture to flow as long as possible. Visualize that the levels will be horizontal.
A professional would proceed from the low end, and work toward the front using 1/4" holes &
dowel plugs to tell him where the level had got to. I did it from the front, not knowing any better!!
Use the drawing on page 144 in the Manual to help locate the ballast from the outside the hull.
Explained elsewhere how to use it to create an accurate picture giving close measurements..
Spread out the filling events over many days because I didn't want the epoxy to smoke.
Believe you can build heat to where it will damage the hull. When I was going down to the
boat regularly, the first thing was to have a filling session, check on the progress.
Banged in wood plugs to stopper a telltale hole when it began to leak plastic.
I think it would help to do this on mornings of 40, 50, 65 degrees, with slow hardener.
Make sure the epoxy is no-blush, so the layers inside get glued together.
I've always mixed into plastic graduated quart 'cups'. Premarked with a sharpie the
proportions are mixed together quickly and funneled immediately into the fill holes.
Not too many holes. OK? 3/4ers of a qt is about as much to mix and pour before exotherm.
On A338's thin hull, it was easy to feel the heat. 2 or 3 fillholes speed it up. Lead is cold.
After cure...dished the holes and filled back with epoxy and disks of matt and fabric.
What I didn't do, but may work in your boat is to forget drilling holes in the sides of the
hull and do the filling from inside...if you have the cabin sole removed. Drilling location
holes near the hull will be fun. May get lucky if they didn't slobber too much down the
crack between ballast and hull. Never explored this option myself.
In LittleGull, I discovered before it became a catastrophy, that the end of the ballast at
the sump had not been glassed in. I think it may have been left that way
SO THAT THE BALLAST DRAINS INTO THE SUMP. But it was so funky it became
evident that it was just a sloppy job. Ghastly, fixing it with chisels and grinder....:
If you're using polyester, you'll have to drill more holes to get it in faster... before it smokes.
I don't think I could do it! Possible, if one had total access to the top of the ballast inside
the boat - and prepped everything ready... having all fill holes drilled the whole length,
it could be done with polyester.......and a full air mask. Or spare set of lungs.
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[later EDIT. This is a comment on Mike's next post #77]
Wonderful find! Really! Urethane foam has a violent reaction when combined, compared
with the much more tame reaction of the SICOMIN. Wouldn't use U-foam inside because
reaction gasses are very toxic. It's not strickly closed cell and not structural. When used
(as the Sicomin video demo shows epoxy foam) as a rudder foam, it always seems to turn
out to be a mistake. (viz Foss Foam rudders.) Sicomin PB250 is a dream come true.
I'd see if the Ensign shop could give us an interview. Be great to find out if they foam
the ballast wide open or cover it and do the hole drilling ballet. Urethane can build up
tremendous pressure if captured without a way out when expanding. The epoxy foam
seems much gentler...but imco needs some expert advise. It's got to fill every bit of the
void to be totally effective. Wouldn't want a puddle of water developing somewhere
inside the cavity. (If my experience is typical: using 6-7 gals of liquid....there is 0.1337cu.ft
in a gallon (0.1337x7=0.9cu.ft)...so it looks like a one cubic foot kit would do it....??
This Sicomin epoxy foam looks PERFECT. And whatever it costs, it'll be way cheaper
than filling with liquid epoxy!!!
I had a discussion with a fellow from Ensign Spars (http://ensignspars.com/) about a year and a half ago. Turns out they use an expanding EPOXY foam made by Pro-Set (http://www.prosetepoxy.com) to fill the keel voids in the new Ensigns. A closed-cell AND structural solution.
I couldn't find any retail outlet for the product at the time. He said it was formulated especially for them, but the they might sell it at some point. (A quick look and I don't see on the Ensign site yet.)
Here's a video of the Pro-Set epoxy foam (http://www.prosetepoxy.com/custom_foam.html) in action.
But if there is a retail outlet for the stuff, it seems like Ebb's fill from the top method would be ideal with this stuff...
< Pause for Google Search... >
Found one! Sicomin Foaming Epoxy (http://www.corecomposites.com/composites/sicomin-foaming-epoxy/)
And another! Matrix Composite Materials (http://www.matrix-composites.co.uk/products/epoxy-resin/foaming.html) (in the UK)
It appears expanding epoxy foam has hit the market!
----
And Sicomin has a video using the expanding epoxy foam (http://vimeo.com/11419980) too.
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