RUDDER SHOE DISCUSSIONS

[tcoolidge]

Does anyone happen to have the exact measurement from the top edge to the bottom of the rudder shoe? The specs were either omitted or did not copy on to the rudder shoe drawing in my manual. From the drawing I come up with a measurement just under 3 3/4 inches but would be happier if someone could remove the uncertainty. I've encountered a semi retired tool and die maker who has access to a foundry and all the necessary tools and is interested in casting one for me as an interesting project. If there is any interest from other Ariel owners, I could approach him about making more. (for a fee, I'm sure).
Thanks,
Tom
Furthur #332

[ebb]

Back when, I made up a model of the fitting (using the one from 338) to the specs in the Manual and sent it off to Bristol. I got the new casting back and it turned out it was much wider that what Pearson had put there. Not that I couldn't have figured it out befor...

Because I had taken the moth-eaten original, bent the sides back out. They were bent in, I thought, by bolts, and bondoed the corrosion smooth. It was corroded on the side of the zinc. Anyway I assumed too much.

Ended up I had a bit of fairing to do on the keel.

Anyway, it says on the specs in the Manual the rudder shoe was for the Coaster and the Vanguard as well. Somehow, the original fitting on 338 had narrower scantlings. It wasn't all the fault of corrosion. You might want to get some owners to caliper the shoe befor you go into production. It just might be possible the shoe (on 338) came from one of the other Alberg.

What an assumption that would be:
That all Albergs have the same keel angle!!!

[marymandara]

I want one!

Actually, our friend who is setting about to refit Triton 549 does, too!

Any luck?

Thanks,
Dave

[tcoolidge]

I'll know more in a few days. The guy who has the technology is looking at the drawings and deciding how he wants to proceed and what would make it worthwhile. Next time I talk to him I'll see how he feels about doing a small production run. I think eventually someone would buy them all. Will post more info as it becomes available.

Tom

[tcoolidge]

The latest on rudder shoes. Talked to the tool maker who is going to build a mold to manual specifications for me and either pour it himself or arrange to have it poured, depending on whether I use manganese or silicon bronze. He has easy access to one (silicone) but not the other but does know an area foundry that pours a lot of manganese that will do it for me, if I choose manganese. (probably)
The bad news is that he isn't interested in setting up to do a production run, although he might be persuaded at a later date if there is sufficient demand to make it worth his while. Multiple use molds are considerably more involved and he just wants to a small project to keep him out of the rain. What I can do is make a plaster mold(s) of the new rudder shoe when it arrives and send those to whoever wants one so they can take it to their local foundry or I could possibly arrange to have castings made from the plaster molds at the same place mine gets done.

[tcoolidge]

My mold maker has finished the pattern he made to exact scale of the drawings and is taking it to the foundry for casting this week. It turns out he's a master craftsman and the pattern is almost a thing of beauty. (see pics) He has also indicated that he is now interested in keeping the pattern so he can get more castings made for anyone who wants one. Will know total price in a few days. Anyone interested, let me know. He might also be persuaded to make molds for just about any other bronze part that drawings exist for.

[tcoolidge]

another pic

[marymandara]

WoW!

Hoover and I are nearly ready to go on castings, too...but I have to say that that is a wonderful plug.

The patternmaker's is a near- lost art anymore, and that's a shame. Look at any cast-metal part from days of old (like the underside of the table on your Delta Unisaw or similar) and think...someone carved that out of incredibly hi-grade honduras mahogany once.

I had a fellow worked in my instrument shop who had worked in patterns at Boeing in the early '60's...and he was a consummate craftsman. These guys are true treasures, true artisans, and a (unfortunately but truly) dying breed. Soak up everything you can from a guy like this, needless to say! Wow.

Nice pattern plug! Please pass my compliments to the patternmaker if the chance arises if you would.

Best,
Dave

[Jim Wiles]

tcoolidge,
I had discussed the shoe casting with Bill Hoover in the past. Your pics. and the plug are really great.
I do wish to express interest in also having one cast for us! I as you would like to have an idea of cost when you find out. The timing is perfect since I'm presently doing the rudder which I'll install this fall following this sailing season.
Thanks so much for you guys leg work!
Jim

[tcoolidge]

Will see if he can get two cast when I next talk to him. He might be planning on doing that anyhow. I'll keep you, and anyone else who is interested posted.


Tom

[Scott Galloway]

Tom,

Please keep me posted on the cost of the casting. I may be interested in purchasing one. I do not appear to be in immediate need, but it would be a shame not to add to my collection of useful bronze goodies for the underbelly of my forty year old friend, Augustine.

[tcoolidge]

Got a message the shoe was cast today but he didn't say how much the foundry cost. Will pick it up Monday and know then and will post it as soon as I know.

Tom

[tcoolidge]

It's here. Pics attached.
Rough shoe (as is) $175.00. No mounting holes, no rudder shaft hole, ruddershaft bearing surface not hardened and polished. Take it to the machine shop of your choice for finish work. OR if I can find 4-5 people who are interested in a finished shoe, he will (and can) do the finish machining as well. He says building the jig to hold the shoe for drilling the ruddershaft hole is something of a pain and it's not worth it to him to do for one or two shoes but if there are a few people interested he will tool up. Estimated cost for a finished shoe is $250.00.
He cast two shoes in manganese bronze. We went with manganese because it is considerably harder and stronger than naval or silicon bronze but he can arrange casting in whatever alloy you might want.
Anyone interested, let me know.
Tom

[tcoolidge]

another view

[Bill]

I need one of those just to put on the mantel for everyone to see! :D

Seriously, I think one of the "finished" ones is what I should have. How is this going to work?

[tcoolidge]

I told the artisan that I would put a post here and see what kind of real interest there was and get back to him in a few days to let him know if I can find enough takers to make it worth his while. If I only get one or two I'm seriously thinking about making up the difference myself and holding on to the extras until someone wants them. Be nice if there was one available when needed instead of having to go through all this again. This guy does remarkable work and I'd kind of like for him to do the finish machining. He has a huge shop he putters in with several projects, both wood and metal, going and every one of them is a thing of beauty. I also don't want to find out what a machine shop is going to charge to do the setup and drilling for just one shoe.
Will post an update next week.

[tcoolidge]

The shoe maker is going to be doing more castings, this time in naval silicone bronze. He is also going to do the finish machining. If anyone is interested in acquiring a rudder shoe let me know.

Tom

[Hull376]

Tom,

I'm interested for sure at the price you're estimating. Will need one sooner or later, and it makes sense to take a bird in the hand! After you get the final tally of interested skippers, let us know the cost and if its a go or not.

[Jim Rester]

What's happened since July on Rudder Shoes?

Just hauled the boat and mine is gone.

Any help appreciated

Jim

[Bill]

Fred Pomeranz is the source I used for a replacement shoe. His mailing address is:

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

I will E-mail you his E-mail address . . .

[tcoolidge]

He's a good guy and makes a great rudder shoe.
Tom

[Jim Rester]

The pic is of a rudder shoe from another Pearson. I never saw the boat so I don't know if the rudder post was stainless or not. Obviously this could be made to work but is it a good idea?

If the stainless was more noble than the rudder post and caused the post to disappear my "free" shoe would be the worst bargain I've ever made. And there is some stiff competition for that title.

Another option would be an insert of some material like teflon that would separate the two metals. If I tied the tiller so the rudder did not swing with every wave it might last awhile but how long?

Any ideas?

Jim

[Bill]

IMHO, don't add ss to the mix! Everything else under the boat is bronze.

[donstier]

Good luck with a rudder shoe- I respond here because I don't yet know how to start my own thread... Here's my sitch- I'm buying (probably) A176 out of Orcas Island , and it needs an outboard. I have a GREAT Honda 7.5 LS from the mid-80's. Will it fit in the well? Am I stuck with using some little chainsaw motor? Can the well be modified to fit my Honda? Thanks in advance, fellas- I'm excited to get this little Alberg going and show her transom to my local Port Townsend buddies with their classic (and very cool) woodies. Don Stier ph.360 301-2924

[Bill]

Don, please use the search button at the top of the page and type in "outboard." You will find extensive discussions on the subject. Bottom line, the 4 cycle 8hp Nissan, Yamaha, Mercury, etc (all built by Tohatsu) seems to be the consensus choice.

Any other questions? Please use the search button first! :)

[ebb]

Hello Jim,
There are some 400 series stainless steels that don't corrode in salt water. The best of the more common 300s is 316. Even that will corrode when oxygen deprived like under washers or where tight against something like under the keel. Sometimes stress corrosion happens when a fastening or plate is under load, screws or bolts crumble or the fitting will develop cracks where corrosion begins. Only low carbon 316 should be welded, normal 316 will rust immediately at the weld.

Is that cup welded on the skeg in your pic? Whether something stainless will corrode is unpredictable, sometimes it won't, even tho it should. Water running by a rudder shoe provides oxygen which may help the fitting survive longer. Out of the water s.s. creates a thin passive protective film in the presense of oxygen.

Stainless has its own problems under water by itself, unless an electrical contact with an annode is constant it will always corrode. In the presense of bronze (copper doesn't like to change its voltage, so when a current happens to it, it is the likely one to corrode or cause the corrosion depending on what it's coupling with) the galvanic corrosion is again unpredictable.

On 338, which had a brass shoe with a s.s. rudder shaft in it, it was the shoe that experienced the worst of the pitting. One would think the copper alloy more noble, except the brasses called bronzes have a load of zinc and lead alloyed in them. If an alloy is a little bit off, and the electric current is just so, I guess the alloy itself can corrode. The s.s rudder shaft in this case showed no obvious deterioration. It was not zinced - the shoe was.

Two very different alloys: s.s and bronze have absolutely no business together under water. That is asking for trouble.

Maybe to say they will create some bad business together. Since you can't isolate rudder shaft and shoe you have to zinc the separate pieces. But either the zincs wouldn't work or they'ld dissolve so fast the shoe or the rudder would quickly become unprotected. Even similar alloys (two bronzes or or two stainless) are different enough to begin exchanging little particles.

[Jim Rester]

ebb

Thanks for the educated reply. The piece in the pic looks like two different diameters of pipe welded to a piece of flat stock.

It came from a very old Pearson someone cut up. I have no idea if it was oringinal or a replacement. If a replacement, of course I don't know how long it spent in the water but it shows no sign of corrosion.

That said, nor have I seen the effect it had on it's partner the rudder post.

Dissimilar metals are always a problem I guess and welds are a problem. I have seen that on the 100% stainless holding tank on my old Cheoy Lee.

It is unlikely that someone is going to say, "Sure! No Problem! Let it rip!" but I thought I'd try.

You mentioned that even different batches of the same alloys can be a problem. Does anyone know how the people who are selling Bronze Silicon shoes are insuring compatibility with the rudder post?

Wow! It's after 5:00 on New Years Eve. The shadow is on the Yard Arm. The heck with cathades and anodes and all their unfaithful little electrons!!

Time to be happy!!!!

Thanks for the advice in this and the other conversations.

HAPPY NEW YEAR

JIm

[ebb]

HNY Jim,
Play around with the Search option on the top of this page. There are shoes being made. (But I must say I disagree completely with the alloy.) I've seen very rare mentions of alloys having to be the same. It is my opinion that the shoe and the shaft MUST be the same alloy. Even so you have to trust the supplier, who I would actually ask for the alloy percentages even where they originate.

Personally I chose what I consider one of the purest Bronzes available, a real bronze, not a brass masquerading as a bronze they sell to the pleasure boat crowd. Everdur 655. Almost pure copper + a pinch of silicon. Manganese bronze is nearly 40% zinc. In the iffy environment of salt water, hot marinas and no positive way to protect metal, that has too much of a spread. For me. It's a fine strong alloy for stem fittings, chain plates and the like.

I would mate the M. bronze shoe with the same in rod for the shaft. But then what will you use to hold the rudder planks? Could thread smaller rod to make the 'bolts.' Could be done avoiding ubiquitous silicon fasteners available almost everywhere. Ah, yer thru hulls are another unrelated brass called bronze. My Everdur cost like gold. Don't think M.B is cheaper, don't know, tho.

[ebb]

HNY Jim,
Play around with the Search option on the top of this page. There are shoes being made. (But I must say I disagree completely with the alloy.) I've seen very rare mentions of alloys having to be the same. It is my opinion that the shoe and the shaft MUST be the same alloy. Even then you have to trust the supplier, who I would actually ask for the alloy percentages and the three digit numeber you can look up. What country the alloy originates may also be a clue as to its purity.

Personally. For 338's rudder and shoe I chose what I consider one of the purest Bronzes available, a real bronze, not a brass masquerading as a bronze they sell to the pleasure boat crowd. Everdur 655. It is a classic marine bronze. Considered propeller shafting. Almost pure copper, a teaspoon of silicon and a pinch of manganese. Manganese bronze is nearly 40% zinc. In the iffy environment of salt water, hot marinas and no positive way to protect metal, that has too much of a spread. It is for me. It's a fine strong alloy for stem fittings, chain plates and the like. I am not a metalurgist or an engineer. There is very good reason to believe that the original Pearson Ariel rudder shoe was/is manganese bronze.

I would mate the M. bronze shoe with the same in rod for the shaft. But then what will you use to hold the rudder planks? Could thread smaller rod to make the 'bolts.' Could be done avoiding ubiquitous silicon fasteners available almost everywhere. Ah, yer thru hulls are another unrelated brass called bronze. My Everdur cost like gold. Don't think 675 is cheaper, don't know, tho.

[Let me add that 655 can be welded. M. Bronze (675), being a brass, can only be brazed. If you are going to make the two-part shaft original rudder with the bent upper portion that goes over the aperture, you can cold bend the 1" silicon bronze ( but it will work harden if you bang it too much) Wouldn't try - I'ld take it to a metal shop with drawings! Really don't know if 675 can be bent or threaded.]

If I became edjercated it was self defense. Too many amateurs and professionals too are influenced by tradition, the marketplace, and experts influenced by tradition, industry brochures & spec sheets, and the mktplace.
But if I get on a cruiser site and the guy is unhappy with some stainless or badmouths some big name bilge pumps - and is specific about it - I'll give it a listen and look for confirmation. Figure their lives depend on their boats and gear. The ONLY metal you should go into the low latitudes with is silicon bronze. Only the very best 316 will last 2, 5, 10 years. None of it under water.

It would be hard to imagine that Pearson skeg you have to be original. Another clue is that the fastenings are not in sheer when attached to the keel. To do that the shoe would have to have sides. like a shoe, and be thru fastened thru the keel molding. I don't trust people like me who talk too much either.

[ebb]

One simple statement.

The reason you have corrosion or dezincification in the shaft or other rudder part, or if you have pitting in the shoe,

is because there is ZINC in your bronze alloy.



Tell me I'm wrong, ok?

[Bill]

Here is the shoe you need :) Mag bronze and he even puts your name on it!
;)

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

[Jim Rester]

ebb & Bill

Thanks for the terriffic information. You both put a lot of effort into this board and I appreciate it.

On C-80 the rudder shaft looks fine. But the shoe is almost totally gone.

Obviously the shaft is more noble. I wonder what alloy of Bronze the original shaft is?

I am working on a solution to this common problem. What alloy would be most like it but slightly less noble?

How often would you say the average person hauls their boat to do the bottom?

[Bill]

Contacted Fred for an update. He has one shoe machined and ready for shipping. Price is $300 including S&H. This price is higher than the earlier shoes due to increasing copper prices. The cost of the next shoe is likely to be higher still as the materials for this one were purchased over a year ago. :(

With commidity prices still on the rise, waiting is probably not a good plan.

[Hull376]

I just had the bottom done on 376, and what do you know? The Zinc I put on the rudder shoe two years ago was gone. I also had a zinc attached by wire to the tiller head fitting when at the dock, but not much gone from it. I have one of Frank's beautiful new rudder shoes in inventory ready to be installed when needed.

[commanderpete]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/NEW-Rudder-Shoe-for-Pearson-Ariel-Vanguard-Alberg-35_W0QQitemZ190321213655QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBoat_Pa rts_Accessories_Gear?hash=item2c500740d7&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C72%3A317

Brand New Cast Bronze replacement rudder shoe to fit Pearson Ariel, Commander. Vanguard and Alberg 35. These have also been used to retrofit Pearson Triton, but a new rudder stock and keel modifications were required. MAY also fit/be adaptable to the Pearson Coaster but am not sure.

This is a raw silicon bronze casting and requires finish machining to be installed on a boat.

Copy of authentic Pearson drawing with machining dimensions and specs is included.

[ebb]

C'pete, great find. good starting bid price.

If it's correct to the specs then it is a real goody. Pg171 A/C Manual.

Added expense is getting the ruddershaft hole (3/4"X3/4"D) milled.
Has to be accurate.


Side pins can conceivably be drilled while mounted to the boat, but really easier and more accurate to do on the drill press with holding jig. And a breeze to add the chamfers for peening into.

How do we tell one bronze from another?
Is there some provenance with this casting?


Finishing the bronze is more a matter of fit than removing the casting marks.
Sandcast surface is not rough and makes a good surface for paint. Not that S.B. needs paint.

[Tony G]

That is an unreasonably good price! The windlass has my attention too! Now if I could just figure out how to service the rudder and shoe while she's still on the trailer...:mad: That was a major oversight in trailer design on my part.

P.s. good to see you back in action CPete. Missed your input around here.

[commanderpete]

The shoe sold for $146. Must have been one that Fred built

Thanks Tony. I didn't supervise the haulout of my boat closely enough last Winter. This is what happens when they start to lift the boat out of the water, by the rudder

Lucky I had a spare rudder

[Tim D.]

They did that at a yard.:eek:

[epiphany]

Wound up being $172 w/shipping, near enough. Anticipating the worst - I'm not *positive* that I need it, but wanted it on-hand just in case I find 'bad stuff' down there when I pull the boat. Bronze rod can be ordered fairly easily, not so a shoe. And with the price climbing above 3BoatBux over three years ago, figured it was a good deal not to be passed up...

That said - I don't see why a shoe couldn't be made of composites - heck, shoe and rudder combined - no more worry about electrolysis ever. Spent some time looking at McMaster and such for materials. Found that you can fairly easily procure 1" OD solid carbon fiber rod somewhat cheaper than a good bronze alloy, though only in 4' lengths (so far - more searching might find a source for longer rod stock). Hollow tube stock can be found in longer sections, but I don't know how much faith I could put into that, considering stresses and whatnot... I imagine that abrasion could be an issue, would probably be *the* issue. But could also be accounted for in designing and constructing. Some well placed sacrificial Delrin might do the trick. A shoe might be made from sheet material glued up and then milled to a proper rudder-post-base accepting shape that could be attached to the after part of the keel...

Food for thought, anyway. :)

Thanks for the heads up on that auction, C'Pete! I had good eBay fu yesterday - spent all my birthday money. ;) Also scored a set of 8:1 Harken mainsheet blocks for just over a $100 - retail would be $450+! I got them to use during rigging jobs, should be able to hoist myself aloft easily now, without needing to procure the help of a deckhand winch grinder. :) And though you don't need that kind of purchase on an Ariel, I could still use them in that way, or as a handy billy.

Hate that the yard did that to your rudder. :eek::confused: :mad: Did they pick up replacement/repair costs?

[ebb]

Kurt, that's interestin....
All that is really required at the bottom of a rudder shaft is a decent BEARING - and even that could be some spaceage material. Super acetal. And it could be designed to be easily replaceble.
Don't know if the obvious alternate materials, kevlar and carbonfiber plus a twopart plastic are the optimum underwater materials. Not yet, but something will come along.
Our shoe is a nice tidy little bronze burrito that disappears as an appendage. Its plastic/fiber replacement would be noticeable and might just as well be a bit larger and longer and bolt on directly to the bottom of the keel without being dapped in.. Have seen boats that instead of a shoe have a super gudgeon just up from the bottom for the rudder end. That moves the hinge up from the more vulnerable end of the keel position. And a design like that actually might work for the Ariel/Commanders.
Siliconbronze is an ideal material. Don't think that any epoxy composite can equal the stuff.

I agree with your rudder upgrade too. Occured to me once that the rudder doesn't care if it has a single or twopart bronze rod to swing on. Our rudder has a bearing at the very bottom of the shaft and at the top. (And perhaps at the intermediate strap gudgeon.)
The inbetween can be square sectioned, I-beamed, or any shape - OR doesn't even need to be there. That 1" bronze rod is,what, 20#? We only need it's roundness and toughness at the bottom and the top. It can conceivable be any other material inbetween. Or can just be whatever the blade material is.
A composite rudder that didn't depend on a huge 6 foot long, one inch diameter pin would be a great design challenge. As to the rudder having a hollow rod, I noticed in Alberg's original drawings in the Manual a 2" shaft - which ofcourse would be hollow.
Or if on the back end of a wooden boat would be two inches of white oak or teak. And the attachment method gudgeons and pintles. With the blade material inbetween!:cool:


Our original rudder and shoe are imco holdovers from pre-fiberglass history, from the wooden boat days.
The bronze shoe especially seems to belong on the end of a keelpost timber, not barely holding on to a plastic boat that really isn't capable, the way it was molded, to really hold the fitting. I mean the shoe is a wood boat fitting on a plastic keel.
I think a modern design upgrade of both is a great idea.

[carl291]

I bought one of the rudders shoes advertised on EBAY, it arrived today. It is certainly a very hefty piece when compared to the original. I'll post some pictures tomorrow of both shoes , new and old, side by side so you can compare.
The seller said his friend had several of these cast several years ago and just recently dug them out to sell. I don't know how many he has, but I mentioned posting here if he had more to sell.
Later:)

PS I will add I feel like this is nearly twice the weight of the original and will positively need to be milled (ground) down to use, it's just TOO hefty a piece.
I really don't need it as my original is in good shape. If a member does, contact me, The price is cost plus zero.

[George Boggs]

To Carl291 and others: I am new to the thread. I have an Alberg 35 that needs a new rudder shoe after suffering the same fate as commander pete at haul out this fall. Can you all advise me as where I can get one now. Should I contact Fred in Washington who appears to have made some a few years ago, and if so, does anyone have his email address? Does anyone else have a source that I can contact? It is not clear that the shoe described in this thread would fit an Alberg 35, but at least one person thought it would work on several of the Alberg designed models. Thanks in advance for any advice? George

[carl291]

Mr. Boggs, Welcome, If I recall the gentleman who had these cast had an A-35 and had these cast from that original shoe. This wasn't cast as an Ariel direct replacement. Hence the hefty size in the previous photos. This piece is for sale if your interested, I could take some measurements this weekend if I should get home and post here.

[George Boggs]

Bill: If you get this post, I was interested in the finished rudder shoe you posted back in 2005 with a nice picture. I am not sure how to use this forum since I am a new user. I do not know how to reply directly to you or simply put up a new post, so here it goes.

Is it still available in finished form? Would it fit an Alberg 35? Where can I get it? If Fred Pomeranz, do you have his email address? Carl291 may have an unfinished one to sell, and I am waiting to hear more from him. Thanks for any assistance you can provide. George

[ebb]

George,
See google>
triton: Message: Re: Rudder Shoe
*
If it comes up, there is a post from the guy who made extra castings (I believe) - may answer some of your questions.
Does mention a measured drawing in the PearsonAireil/Commander Manual that
states the rudder shoe's multi model use: "Alberg Ariel - Vanguard - Coaster" with Coaster added in a later hand. [Alberg 35 is NOT mentioned on the 'rudder shoe' drawing on page 171 in the Aiel/Commander Manual.]
Certainly, the bearing flange may have to be milled for a slightly different angle if the 'keel post' is at a different angle than the Ariel/Commander.

The rudder shoe on A-338 was in sorry shape for various reasons.
It was removed, sides straighten, and bondo/sculpted into a slightly beefier and symetrical version of the original.
It was then cast at a Richmond CA foundry in silicon bronze.
And this beefed up version subsequentlly dapped back onto Ariel's badly molded fiberglass keel heel - that also had to be rebuilt because they didn't get the fiberglass stuffed deep enough into the very end of the keel mold where the rudder shoe is mounted!

The casting is nothing like the humongous casting shown in the side by side photos above.
It is slightly larger in overall width, but imco can be easily faired into the hull. As it was on A-338.

Measuring off the casting mold (which is the slightly modifield heel fitting):
OA 11 3/8"
Width at widest point on top 3 1/4"
Inside width at top 2 3/4"
Bearing surface of flange the rudder shaft engages is 2 1/8" X 2 1/8"
This then describes the taper of the fitting on top.
The hole for the shaft is not drilled into the mold - nor are the side holes for the pins.

The angle of the flange off the straight tops of the fitting is 144 degrees.
This angle was not changed in the modification.
Obviously this flange is at right angle to the keel post when installed correctly.
This is the flange that may have different apparent angles on different Alberg keels than those mentioned.
[It would be no problem on a casting mold to add a small angle wedge if needed to correct the flange angle to 90degrees if the keel angle is different than those stated on the drawing for the Ariel/Commander, Vanguard and Coaster.]
Larger Alberg models, like the Alberg 35, may have proportionately larger rudder shoes.


GOOD LUCK!
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
* interesting that the Tritons I've seen do not have a rudder shoe.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________
The oversize cast rudder shoe in the above photos looks rather crude -
and imco the material looks more like brass than bronze.
I think it is better to have a new shoe cast in a known material.
My absolute choice is silicone bronze 655.
Everdur 655 bronze comes in plate form and can easily be welded.
It may be possible to have a pretty good rudder shoe fabricated from this bronze in a metal shop.

[Bill]

Although "35" is not noted in the reference to "Alberg" in the drawing, I'm pretty sure that Pearson only produced the 35. I believe the 30 was produced by Whitby Boatworks in Ontario.

But, more important is the difference in the angle of the machined surface of the shoe into which the rudder shaft is inserted. For the Ariel and Vanguard, it is 40 degrees. For the Alberg, it is 35 degrees. Consequently, a shoe produced for an Ariel would NOT be proper for an Alberg -- of course, one possibly could machine the surface angle to 35 degrees without messing up the shoe fit.

[ebb]

I punched >aberg 35 rudder shoe< into google.
Went to 'images' where pearsonariel.org thumbnails from various threads from the discussion pages are evident. Nothing here obviously on the Alberg 35.
however....
On this first page of thumbnai are three labeled
alberg 35 gallery spot (46 240X180 -23K -jpg.
web site is
fiveprime.org
The other two thumbnails are 'Cockpit hole' and 'primed cockpit'

When you cursor the pic you get three disorganized pages of Flickr photos.
No text of any sort I can find.
But you can locate 5 or six RUDDER SHOE photos
and a rebuild of the keel heel.
Looks like it could be one of our boats, same shoe, same problem. But same size"? That is not known.
another way in to the same photos: google> My Sailboat Project - a set on flickr

To my knowledge this is the only online photo collection of an Alberg 35 restoration.
And the only photos of the rudder shoe/keel restoration.
There is a rudimentary A35.org site.
There may be plans available (with measured drawings?) at the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, MA.

[Chance]

Bill,
Can you provide me Fred's updated contact info, including phone and email? I'm referring to post #31 and of the nicely finished (machined) shoe he has created.
Looking to purchase one for Ceili.

Thank you,
Chance

[Bill]

Chance:

Here is the last contact we had for Fred. Unfortunately, he has not responded in several years. It could be that he's moved, or something worse.

frecarzoee@harbornet.com

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333

BTW - The drawing of the shoe in the manual can be used to cast a shoe. That's how Fred did it.

As noted elsewhere, this shoe fits Commanders, Ariels, Vanguards, Coasters (which all use 35 deg pitch where the shaft sits) and Albergs (which uses a 40 deg pitch where the shaft sits) [see drawing]

[carl291]

Chance Happy New Year! The kind of work you do you should think about making a plug to make one out of Kelvar and Epoxy with a bronze bushing inserted. Carl

[Tony G]

I would like to see some design ideas for a composite shoe/shaft option for our boats. I know there is a great deal of strength in resin and fabric but how well do you think it would hold up to occational grounding even if only on sand and mud? Maybe if the shoe was beefed up by increasing the height thickness such that the point where the shaft inserts into the shoe is 5-6 inches above the 'heel' of the keel for lack of the proper term. Would all of this lead to a reshaped rudder? Maybe bring back the constellation rudder Ebb was working on circa 2003?

[Chance]

Carl,
Thank you, but...I'll stick with a bronze alloy. Actually I have an update for all:

I just got off the phone this evening with Mr. Fred Pomeranz and we had a very nice conversation. In short, he knows I'm interested in replacing the shoe on "Ceili" and is checking on alloy availability and an updated cost total (to reflect the casting and machine work).

My alloy of choice is Silicone Bronze 655 (Copper Alloy Number 655 - Wrought High Silicon Bronze A Everdur).

The new rudder shaft is of the same alloy listed above and I have obtained that through the company Atlas Bronze in NJ.

[Chance]

Bill,
Mr. Fred Pomeranz's new email address is: frecarzoee@comcast.net. His mailing address is still the same as above. It was a pleasure meeting him over the phone and we had a great conversation. Looks like "Ceili" (Commander #256) will get a new shoe to match her new rudder that I am building.

[Chance]

Just want to let those who may be interested:

New silicon bronze (Herculoy) rudder shoe

Cost: $325.00 (includes machine work)

This is fast moving. Foundry will have the pattern first part of this coming week, and is scheduled for casting.

If you desire to purchase one, your intentions and commitment to purchase is needed this weekend.

Thanks

[Chance]

Here's Ceili's new rudder shoe, tiller head strap / cap assembly and associated 655 silicon bronze shaft and other items waiting in my garage for the next phase.

[Ed Ekers]

I think we will be adding a new rudder shoe to our Ariel on our next haul out (soon). Looking for any leads on who might still be available to make one. Better yet would someone might have an extra just lying around. Whatever info you can share I would appreciate…..thanks…….ed (Pathfinder #77)

[Bill]

Ed, Fred (as noted above) is the best source, if he's still around. Bristol Bronze, as I recall, may have also produced a rudder shoe, but it did not appear to be as well machined. At the present cost of metals, whomever you find is likely to be more inexpensive than the $325 Chance Smith paid.

You might want to check with "kendall" in the off topic forum. He recently scrapped an Ariel and may still have the shoe:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?2486-Mast-boom-and-sails-FS.

FRED POMERANZ
1168 QUEETS DR.
FOX ISLAND, WA 98333
frecarzoee@comcast.net

[ebb]

Howsitgoin Ed,
When mine came off it was because it was pretty eaten up
- somehow - by reacting with the stainless or monel alloy shaft that was used for the fiberglass DFO rudder on A338.
Or maybe because it wasn't silicon bronze.
The fitting had extra bolts drilled thru the sides and the remains of zinc wires under the nuts.
The fiberglass heel inside was a crumbly mess, requiring a serious rebuild.

One of the thinner sides of the shoe was bent from being bolted rather than pinned to the boat, and if I remember the heel of the shoe was pitted & corroded.

Used Bondo to build up the sides. Sides are spec 5/16" along the top. But the body is more rounded fair, I guess, since my original was in bad shape.
Then I took it to Richmond and had California Casting make one in S.B. using it as the mold.


Just found & took a look at it. Still has silvery mold release on it from the time it was used to make the sand mold.
Looks smooth, edges sharp.. Did not change the interior shape or dimension. Inside looks original.

The 3/4" hole for the rudder shaft has to be drilled in the flat at a precise center.
Manual pg 171 has a drawing of an "Alberg-Ariel-Vanguard-Coaster Rudder Shoe." Mold is very close to those lines.
Flat in drawing is stated to be 35degrees from the line of the top of the shoe - for the Ariel.
Drawing measure across the widest part of angled flat that ithe hole for the rudder shaft is drilled in ....sez 2 1//6".
My mold with unaltered sides (except for fattening lower sides and 'sole' of the Shoe, measures 2 3/16" across the "machined flat".
Don't believe machining is necessary to get the angle correct, a file can get the flat shiney.
Mold is slightly longer than Manual at 11.5" and slightly wider at 3.25". Allowing for shrinkage, should cast pretty much like original.
Sides have to be drilled for copper pins as well, but that is a good thing because you can put them where you want 'em.

Think I had the piece cleaned up at the shop after casting but not buffed, which made it less expensive.
Remember thinking it was very reasonable, and cleanly cast.

The "mold" is as heavy as the real thing, 6lbs, since the real thing is inside.

Use it of course.
You might want to see it first.
I'm in SantaCruz usually around some holiday, can bring it down.
UPS?

[carl291]

Ed, I have one for sale that needs all machine work done, I'll let it go for $100.00 plus shipping, I thought I would keep it for a spare. but I won't be needing it. Carl

[Ed Ekers]

Hi Carl, I sent a private message

[Bart]

I know this is an old post but if they're still available I'd love to buy one that is hardened on the bearing surface. Thanks. bartblank@yahoo.com