Anchor roller [Archive] - Pearson Ariel Association Forums

ebb

09-30-2003, 05:03 PM

Don't know if anybody's still rolling on this one. I have a few questions.

Is that really Glissando's nose? Looks GOOD. And I love that boot top!

But, (inexperience here) I find a 24" anchor fitting has only 12" of flat attachment to the front, and I tell myself the anchor is pulling downward on the fitting - and I'm assuming the chain is left in the channel and ended on a samson post or something immovable like a bulkhead - the forces then on the end of the fitting turn it potentially into a lever with the forces UP on the bolts in tension. Rather than in sheer, where the strength of bolts are at their best.

If you had your anchors over in the channel of that Bruce fitting with just the short length pierced into its nose,
Do you think the boat would have survived Isabel???

Now there is G's bowsprit with all the forces on the wood extension. My guess, without going to the 381 site, that there has to be some s.s. backing to that arrangement, right? With 3,4,5 tons and more bouncing on a tether of nylon and chain
multiplied by the weight of wind and water in a serious storm, I mean, I can't see how these short channels can survive intact and protect the boat if the boat where anchored out.

But this IS what is acceeptable, right??? Hard to fathom!

Bogle

09-30-2003, 06:23 PM

Well, I forgot to take a snapshot of my installation, but give me another weekend or two.

The Simpson Lawrence roller that I bought is a very heavy duty piece of stainless. I would estimate it to be 1/4" thick or better. It will pull out of my deck before it bends, in my estimation. In fact, it may take some fiberglass with it, and the stem fitting...

I should have a stainless backing plate, but I made do with high-strength epoxy and plywood. I can always add it when I someday retire and have time to work on the boat (in twenty years ;-)

glissando

10-01-2003, 04:39 AM

Questions asked...questions answered.

My anchor platform, as seen above, features a 3/8" thick SS plate for reinforcement. The plate, which is 24" long, extends the full overhang forward of the bow (you can see it in the photo) and extends aft onto the deck, where the platform is bolted through the deck and heavily backed.

http://www.triton381.com/images/ssplate1.JPG

Two of the six bolts securing the platform (the entire platform is 42" long) pass through the SS plate. The plate is epoxied to the bottom side of the wooden platform, so the wood is mostly cosmetic. When deployed, the anchor line runs aft to an 8" sampson post secured to the deck. Assuming high winds, but no significant wave action, the forces on all bolts (sampson post, anchor platform, and rollers) would remain in shear, not tension. Both rollers installed are as heavy-duty as they come, not that that by any means they are infalliable. (Far from it)

http://www.triton381.com/images/rollersinstalled2.JPG

I would feel comfortable anchored out with this rig in any situation as long as it was a protected harbor with little or no fetch. It's the waves that kill an anchored boat during a storm, not the wind pressure. Violent motion at the bow creates incredible forces on any mooring setup. That said, I'd worry first about the chafe from such motion, then worry about damaging the rollers or platform. Frankly, if it got that bad, I don't believe there's much anyone could do except hope for the best. I'd prefer to take precautionary steps well in advance to avoid the possibility in the first place. That's the best insurance.

I feel comfortable in the strength of the rollers and the platform to withstand the wind pressures that might be encountered. The key is to ensure that your safe harbor is well protected from sea development. My intended hurricane hole here in Maine (unneeded so far, thankfully) is protected from all directions and is small enough to prevent damaging sea development in any wind.

I would not ever put 100% faith in anchor rollers or platforms on any boat, no matter what. The potential for failure is real, and is well documented in known failures. I believe this particular platform is as good as any, but have no disillusions about its ultimate strength or ability to survive severe wave conditions. But I feel as good about it as I ever could.

MarkCreeker

10-01-2003, 07:47 AM

Well, I was bidding on a perfect Windline anchor roller on eBay, only to have it sniped out from under me. From what I've seen here, the Windline BRM is the right direction to go.

You've gotta love Glissando's tenacity. Anchor platform break? Fine, how about with a 3/8" stainless steel plate! (I'm also drooling over that roller furling set up).

commanderpete

10-01-2003, 07:57 AM

Hurricane Marty tears up bow rollers

http://svmirador.net/September_27_2003.htm

Breaking waves very bad.

ebb

10-01-2003, 08:18 AM

Thanks for your thoughtful and complete post and the look at your elegant anchoring solution. With a 42" fetch on the platform and the number of thru bolts I agree that the bolts are in sheer - because you have virtually eliminated any LEVER action (I see) in common practice - where the over hanging proprietary fitting is merely bolted on.

338 had an 11" Windline (the fittings are very substantial and well designed in thenselves) bolted to the toerail. The toerail on 338 is molded at about 3/16" and the backing material was a funky piece of plywood - probably because it is difficult to work up in this area inside. IMCO, the installation looked dangerous.

Just as the brakes on a car is as important as the engine, if not more, so is the anchoring system on the boat - if not more so. Maybe Windline makes extensions for their anchor rollers. Or has longer versions. IMCO the deck bolts holding the fitting should be spread further apart, further inboard, and the whole triangle in the forepeak that the toerails end as, in the Ariel, should be filled as a load spreading backing for the fitting. One inch thick, minimum.

381's beefy bow anchoring design ought to be kept in mind when upgrading the Ariel.

.......there may come a time..........

ebb

10-01-2003, 10:50 PM

What a story! Marty and Mirador. Just flashed thru the story on the way to the sack, hey, too bad the camera got wet. Great seamanship!

That broken weld could have been foretold methinks, It's going to take some kind of genius to melt a thick plate (1/4") onto a thin pipe (wall less than 1/8" ?) Get the bead too hot and you blow into the tube. I bet the tube wasn't melted hardly at all, just had a nice looking bead. Could have been textbook corrosion, too. The sprit survived tho! THAT'S interesting. I've "seen" 338 with a bent tube bowsprit. Gotta go back and see how they fix the design.

Bolts pulled UP! That's what I mean.

c_amos

07-18-2006, 08:03 AM

As I continue to work forward on the bow, after the core repair on the starboard side, my eyes have turned to the anchor roller.

I have a 25# CQR and a ss roller that I plan to hang. My current plan is to remove the stbd chock, and run the roller over the toe rail there. I want to make a mounting base of oak, covered in epoxy/glass and through bolt to a backing plate.

I really want the roller, but don't want it to be the weak link in the anchoring system.

Further review of s/v Mirador's page on anchor systems (http://svmirador.net/February_16_2004.htm) seems like he has come up with a good compromise.

He made the roller as heavy as he could, then made a heavy plate where his bobstay attached with an extra hole for a snubber to attach. This solution seems like it would work well to transfer the load off of the roller, and would give the added bonus of dropping your attachment point lower to increase the scope.
http://svmirador.net/IMG_3124.JPG

Has anyone done this on an Ariel? Does anyone see a drawback to this?

ebb

07-18-2006, 09:02 AM

My purpose in life is to create controversy.
(Along with an endless Ariel remodel.)

ANCHORING -
I think the idea is to use the anchor rollers on a sprit to drop or retrieve the anchor. Great for singlehanding from the cockpit.

But the rode that comes from the mooring bit or sampson post should be led over chocks on the rail. I think the system should allow for the rode to be removed from the rollers to chocks ON THE BOAT. The chocks should be large enough to allow for three layer chaffing protection. (Mirador seems to have had that covered.) The chocks should be ones designed without any sharp edges. The lead over the edge of the boat should be as smooth as can be made.

Simply, don't anchor with the rode in the rollers!
Some cruisers advocate anchoring in heavy weather to a bridle using an oversize eye on the stem near the waterline. There is said to be less yanking and surging off a position closer to the water.

Am I correct in thinking that this way of anchoring is not just ideal
but the way it should actually be done???

(Mirador SAILING off the beach is truly a miracle! One lucky boat.)

c_amos

01-03-2007, 11:37 AM

FWIW,

I went with a Windline URM-3; (http://www.windline.com/rolleroverbow.html)

http://www.windline.com/urm3.gif

It is probably overkill, as it is their largest roller (http://www.windline.com/diagram.html), with over 18" of channel. I wanted to have a lot of metal in contact with the deck to distribute the stress. I have made an oak mount for it, that is wrapped in fiberglass and epoxied to the deck on a bed of thickened epoxy so there are no gaps.

I just put the third coat of thickened epoxy on top of it and the toe to build them up equal across their length. My plan is to drill holes for 5 3/8" carriage bolts (not looking forward to this). :(

The backing plate will be glass covered oak, bedded with epoxy to meet the curve of the deck. I will have aluminum plate under the oak.

I intended to take pictures of the peice of oak... but forgot. Will take some shots once the project is put together.

mbd

01-03-2007, 05:15 PM

Sheesh Craig! You've been on a project blitz! Kudos from those of us who can't even manage to get a deck job done.

BTW, we can't wait to see your gallery spread of "the new" Faith with all the bling blings and shiny things. (jab jab) ;)

Robert Lemasters

01-12-2007, 10:47 AM

The wood trim toe rails, wow, thats another project I have had in mind. How was that done and what materials were needed. I need to trim up my toe rails they were repaired after Isabel the best I could do but the wooden ones look great!:eek:

dasein668

01-15-2007, 06:56 AM

How was that done and what materials were needed.

Everything you ever wanted to know about Glissando but were afraid to ask... on his website triton381.com (http://www.triton381.com).

Here's a direct link to building the toerail (http://www.triton381.com/projects/restoration/toerail.html).

c_amos

04-13-2007, 07:57 AM

Boat is on the hard,

Many projects coming together.... this one still in the thinking stages.

I really like s/v Mirador's set up with regard to the anchor rode riding on an attachment point below the bow.

I am considering drilling a 3/8" hole through the center of my bow a few inches above the waterline and mounting one of those s/s eyes like a trailer Sailor might have.

My research shows that such an arrangement (with proper backing) should handle a #2500 pull. Even if it were to fail the rode would still be attached to the boat and running over the roller.

It seems to me that there are a couple advantages to this;

Running a 'snubber' to the rode secured to this point is a strong, arrangement, allowing the boat to effectively be tethered by it's waterline (rather then a point 3' off of the water). This would also take the stress of of the roller (see above posts).

The decrease of ~ 3' of height shortens the swing circle appreciably.

In 5' of water, 7:1 scope requires 56' of rode and produces a 82' swing circle with the rode coming off of the bow.

The same 5' of water 7:1 scope could be obtained by using 35' of rode and the swing circle drops to something less then 60' (less because the attachment point is now not only lower, but slightly aft of the bow.)

With my Manson on 3:1, I could park in as little as a 40' patch or water with such an arrangement.... :rolleyes:

mbd

04-13-2007, 08:02 AM

BTW, we can't wait to see your gallery spread of "the new" Faith with all the bling blings and shiny things. (jab jab) ;)

...still waiting. :D

mbd

04-13-2007, 08:32 AM

Creative idea, although I could see it being a real pain to attach and disconnect the rode from a point that low up and under your bow. Perhaps it could still be attached on the deck, then run through some easy-to-attach hardware on the bow eye? you'd still get the benefit of your reduced scope and low attachment point.

Not a bad idea for a mooring setup either. It would keep the pennant from fouling with the anchor roller and stem setup if it gets nasty out... :rolleyes:

c_amos

04-13-2007, 08:42 AM

I have 50' of 5/16" high test chain*, and was planning to use a snubber with a hook. My thinking is that I will leave the snubber made up to the eye, and hook to the chain as it goes over the roller. I don't know how long to make the snubber, but if it were, say 15' (open to suggestions) this set up would work for about the first 65' of rode. If I needed to secure it to the rode I would probably try something like a long rolling hitch (again open to suggestions).

* I know this is TOO big, and TOO long for an Ariel. I bought it for a good price a couple years ago, and having gone back and forth I have decided to go ahead and use it. Since I know you are wondering, it weighs #60 per my bathroom scale.

ebb

04-14-2007, 11:28 AM

Been lookin at eyebolts too, Craig:
While 316 is supposedly not as strong as 304, it is the only common grade that should be used when constantly exposed to saltwater.

McMasterCarr (not the cheapest online hardware store, but certainly the fastest) has a couple of shouldered 316 bolts you might be interested in. They are not threaded all the way to the shoulder which imho is important because you would not have a machined thread-cut exposed to the salt. Would invite deadly crevis corrosion. The thread would be way inside where it belongs.
5/8'-11 4.5" (3500# working load - $41.70) and a 3/4-10 4.5" with an inside eye of 1.5" rated at 5000 - 10,000# working load - $51.55. Some insurance in that one!

I believe ss would have a limited life on the prow* of a saltwater Ariel. Think that a silicon bronze eye bolt or other fitting far better. I believe 1/2" eye bolts can be found at Bristol Bronze, but I don't think they would be rated for the full weight of the Ariel. They may have a pattern for a larger shouldered eye bolt they could cast and have threaded for you to your specs. $$$
With silicon bronze you will not have the unseen crevis corrosion that happens with ss. If you talk with Bristol specify SILICON BRONZE. There must be other foundrys around that could do such a simple fitting.

__________________________________________________ ___________________________________
* We know that ss thrives in oxygen because it can develop the oxide film that protects it. Is there an arguement that a 316 eyebolt on the stem of the Ariel is actually in an ideal situation? Active saltwater has a lot of oxygen in it....

c_amos

05-13-2008, 09:08 PM

Just thought I would give a post cruise update on the Rube Goldberg anchor set up we settled on.

Just a recap, I had removed the starboard chock, and beefed up the deck with a glass/epoxy coated oak plank to build a level platform for a windline URM-3 (or was it URM4, which ever is bigger) anchor roller. I backed that with a very large backing plate, and 5 5/16 bolts. The roller had almost enough overhang to prevent any contact with the Manson Supreme anchor when it was brought up.... will add ss plate to the shipped up area under the roller in the future.

The roller was on the short list of the best mods. It made it easy to bring up the anchor which was always well set (can not say enough good about that anchor). We used 55' of 5/16" ht, and even with it all out the roller made it not too bad to bring up.

The snubber was attached to the eye bolt just above the waterline. It was a little tough to reach, Rose could not stretch long enough to disconnect it when she brought the hook up, but leaving the snubber made fast to the eye was no big deal if not entirely bristol.

We used a peice of small stuff to lash the end of the chain to the bit, or to secure the anchor on deck when underway. It worked well, and never sliped.

When in really protected anchorage, like a creek or way up an inlet we would skip the snubber and just make the chain up to the bit with the small stuff.

Useing the snubber at the waterline allowed us to really take advantage of the Mansons short scope abilities. It is a good modification, that I would recommend. The only change I would make would be to use a better peice of hardware then I used. Although rated at 2500#, My 'bow eye' gives the boat the trailer sailor look. Something exotic like ebb would come up with would no doubt be more shippy, and stronger to boot.

Here is a picture, I thought I had one with the deck painted and the bow cleats installed but I guess I did not take one.. too bad as now after 2500nm of cruising things don't look quite so 'fresh' somehow...

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10014/BowRoller.jpg

Tim D.

05-13-2008, 10:43 PM

What do you think about making a bridle snubber off of your bow cleats?

epiphany

05-14-2008, 06:01 AM

Hey - dat bote ain't got one o' dem pulpits, needer... ;)

Seems like I have seen someone that was using the eye bolt technique, who had a small block there that stayed attached. That way they could just pull the rode down to the eye bolt location. Make sense? I can think of several drawbacks, but it would make the process easy.

(Uh-oh! I've successfully combined into one topic, two of the greatest argument-causers of all time, between sailors:

Roller furling for anchors. :D )

ebb

05-14-2008, 10:53 AM

Gee looks kinda SPARSE up there.
No pulpit that's another thread.

But to rig any kind of snubber or bridle you need more chocks and cleats! No?

Pictographs are harder and harder to find on g**gle these days. But for an estuary set up look at this and please comment on it:

http://www.bosunsupplies.com/images/Snubber.gif
[find 10 improvements you can make in 10 seconds time limit:p]

Here's a very interesting cruiser version (without pix, sorry)

http://www.ventanasvoyage.com/anchor_bridle.htm

Sounds like infinite control in any weather and all adjusted from the cockpit too!!!

Tim D.

05-14-2008, 06:18 PM

Well, I know Faith DOES have the cleats, because that is where I got the idea for mine:)

And Ebb, that first link/pic is what I had in mind.

Tim

c_amos

05-24-2008, 12:02 AM

Hey - dat bote ain't got one o' dem pulpits, needer... ;)

........(Uh-oh! I've successfully combined into one topic, two of the greatest argument-causers of all time, between sailors:

Roller furling for anchors. :D )

I might have known I would get a ration for posting that picture.... :rolleyes:

Here is one to give a better idea of the set up. It is neither a good picture, nor are things quite as bright and shiny as they were about 2500 miles ago....

http://sailfar.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10577/Bow1.jpg

Tony G

08-06-2009, 11:57 AM

Craig

I've been diggin around and didn't find a/the post or response I was hoping to find. So I'm going to just throw it out there. Did you end up putting a snubber attachment like the one you posted a photo of on Faith?

As we will be ripping out the water tank added two years ago the subject of anchor rode, where it's carried and what not can be addressed more logically in my camp (hopefully, that is).

Appreciate your real world input.

c_amos

08-06-2009, 09:08 PM

Tony,

Yes I did. I wish I had fabricated something as bomb proof as the one pictured (borrowed from the link I posted IIRC). I ended up using a 'bow eye' like something you would see on a trailer Sailor.

The procedure was to drop and set the hook. I would make the chain fast by passing a bit of small stuff through one of the links (if the 60' of chain was still on deck). I would then attach the snubber to the bow eye (just reachable from the deck). I used a ~12' 1/2" dock line for a snubber.

I would pull enough chain back to attach the snubber so it would take the load. This worked very well, especially with the Manson's short scope holding.

Since scope is calculated from the height the rode is secured, the swing circle could be cut down quite a bit. For instance, 7' of water to get 7:1 you need about 70' of rode if you secure on deck. If you use the snubber eye (couple inches above the water line) you can cut that down to 49'.

When parking just off the ICW, we were able to go 3:1 in ~5' and wind up with a swing circle of somewhere near 40'. Pretty handy.

The ride seems to be better when riding the snubber, and I know there is less strain on the roller. We always secure the rode on deck also, so if the snubber parted we were not going anywhere.

Worked well for us. I picked up a nice 3/8" eye from Fawcetts that I will replace the bow eye with on the next re-work. This is the same fitting you often see the dolphin striker secured to on boats with a bow sprit.

Tony G

08-07-2009, 07:33 AM

Thanks, Craig. That sounds too danged logical to pass up on. One inescapable apprehension I've held in the cracks of my mind is the stress on a bow roller cantilevered out front even on a short sprit. So tonight you'll find me hanging off the bow seeing how far down I can reach and conducting other highly scientific research. Hey, it's Friday night and this kid knows how to party!:D

One more question. How do you secure a chain rode on deck? I've seen a number of bow rollers with chain stoppers incorporated into them. All seem to follow the same basic design that involves a levered, slotted toggle (?) that captures a link as the chain is pulled toward the pivot. I know you know what I'm talking about... Do you wrap the mooring bit?

Beating Darwin one post at a time, Tony

ebb

08-07-2009, 08:14 AM

I'm going to go as close as I can to Craig's BOW EYE method of anchoring.

For me the issue is what material the eye should be. McMasterCarr has 316 shouldered eyes in sizes up to 1".
Stainless has a bad rep. Bad enough for me not to be able to trust it - even over size. Anchoring a 5000# sailboat on ONE bolt* scares the hell out of me.
I'd be thinking of a 3/4" eye at least!

There are no bronze eye bolts on the market.
I'm looking into bronze eyes from a turnbuckle source.
There may be too much fiddling. The bolt, for example, may have to be threaded closer to the eye so that the eye will be closer to the bow when mounted. The bow is wide enough in its curve to be able to have a nut (as the shoulder) buried in it.
Alterations would include beefing up the area around the thru-bolt inside with chopped glass filler and serious matt tabbing.
Might even spread the pulling load more with a thick backing plate.
[There seems to be no bronze rigging eyes available anywhere.]

Just visited Ballenger Spars in Watsonville.
On the counter was a broken bronze turnbuckle eye, the kind that takes a toggle.
It was broke like a piece of toast. The metal looked crystallized. Manufacturer said it was a bad batch, according to Buzz.
Who made the bad batch and didn't test before marketing... I didn't ask.

Note to self: better check that the material IS silicon and not manganese bronze.:eek:
What's in a name brand?
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________________
*I know thinking too much is a main problem with me, BUT
I would trust a U-bolt more than a single leg bolt. Right?
Not only that but a U-bolt is not cast or 'forged'. The metal in a rod is molecularly arranged better to take a strain and is probably more malleable.
Easy to imagine a U-bolt of s.bronze - but not easy to see how to bend oversize stuff into a tight U.

[DECIDED THAT NO CAST FITTING CAN BE TRUSTED. That includes those cast stainless U-bolts used for stem fittings. The problem is the loads on this special use fitting come from many different angles, coupled with shock loads - and sustained loads at an odd angle.
I'm at a loss. I can see an oversized cast bronze fitting with a strong loop. Like earmuffs with the fitting fastened thru the sides with a stout bar/rod connecting across the bow.
Will follow through on bending s.b. rod and post here
if any interest]

I wonder if chafe can be defeated (and the load shared) if TWO eye bolts [or U-bolts] were put in the stem.
One low down like you have,
but why not another higher up under the stem fitting?
Or for that matter Can eyes be put in the hull under the toerail in the forequarter somewhere back from the stem? With the attempt at eliminating chafe altogether?

Not rhetorical, I'm seriously asking this!

Tim D.

08-07-2009, 02:45 PM

OK just to throw another line into the mess, How about a 3 point snubber adding a line to the eye from this kind of snubber setup (pic lifted from a previous Ebb post) The line could provide the low pull with the security of the bridle to back it up.
http://www.bosunsupplies.com/images/Snubber.gif

ebb

08-07-2009, 03:21 PM

OK, TIM!

Not knowing nothing, let me throw this in.
The nylon snubber shown connects to the deck via softeyes that pass through and then over open-base cleats. Have to assume that there is chafe on the splices from the toerail?
And from the looks of it, that would be difficult providing chafe protection - that's a guess.

Suppose under the cleats, or thereabouts, there were eyes or U-bolts like I mentioned in the above post. The same set up could change out softeyes for spliced eyes and shackles - and no chafe.

One leg of the set up shown might be lowered to the waterline eye in the stem. If there was one.
That would lower the pull somewhat. Don't know by how much - but would it lower the load enough to make Craig happy?;)

There is more chafe implied in the drawing where the nylon line is pulled against the stem as it crosses to the windward side. Does it follow that if that leg of the snubber was attached to the stem eye near the bootstripe that all chafe could be eliminated?

Guess that a three leg snubber could be devised for more versatility.

Again, not knowing: Does line get chafed at a cleat it is attached to
if the line is free to move?

The drawing (originates from the Bosun's Supplies site) shows cleats that appear to be above the toerail. In reality any anchor line or snubber end attached to the deck would have a chafe problem as it comes up on deck from the water.

Tim D.

08-07-2009, 03:37 PM

I am not worried about chafe!:rolleyes:

That's why I have been stealing firehoses from school for all these years ;) :D

ebb

08-07-2009, 03:50 PM

ah! those poor kids
not chafed but charred.

ebb

08-07-2009, 06:34 PM

Cruiser's Forum
Rolling Hitch Nylon Rode Snubber? - Cruisers & Saing Forums
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f118/rolling-hitch-nylon-rode-...

[ forums/f118/rolling-hitch-nylon-rode-...]
that's what I typed and that's why the blueline url is not correct.

Two page forum.
Interesting because this shows how difficult it is to explain knots and methods for people and how difficult it is for people to comprehend stuff.
As to the subject of the Forum, which is a snubber for nylon line that uses a prusic knot that has to be tied ONE handed - I still don't get it 100%, probably a lot less.

c_amos

08-07-2009, 06:59 PM

Been out experimenting all day... ;)

Sailed around for a while and then decided to see if I could get the Manson to bite on less then 2:1....

Snubbed at the bit, on the bow.... to the bottom in 39'... dropped 60' of chain. The anchor held for 4 hours... with ~1.25 knots of tide and breeze (less then 15). Silly to try I know... this thing just works. :D

Rose caught 7 fish and a weird looking worm, I caught ONE... using the same bait... go figure.

Tony;

One more question. How do you secure a chain rode on deck?

I looked at the chain stoppers, and did not want to make more holes in the deck... and did not really care for any of the designs I saw anyway. The plate type seem to want all tension off of them to release and would not want a load on the chain when attaching them... not likely.

THe hook type seem light to me and have the same problem.

We use a bit of small stuff about 4' long with well seized ends. It is pretty good stuff, maybe left over from the downhaul replacement...?

Just pass it through the link, and make both ends fast to the bit. The bit knot is much like a cleat knot... wrap around the base, and a figure 8 with the second loop turned under.* This is going to hold well, and can be released or secured under quite a load. Simple, strong, and no additional holes in the deck. Same method is used to secure the anchor in the roller.

* You know when you type something on the internet and you think "I hope I am not insulting anyone by explaining this..." Well, I hope no one is insulted. :o

Ebb,

I agree with the weird loading angles. The natural angle of the bow 'points' pretty much forward and down at a nominal 5:1 slant (maybe less). Puts the 'normal' load in tension... but once she starts sailing around the anchor all bets are off. I went with a standard off the shelf bow eye... which (IIRC) was rated at #2500 (I am sure that would not apply to lateral loads). I am uprating it, although it did take the snubber load through Hurricane Noel with no apparent damage.

If the bolt shears and the snubber fails the rode is still secured on deck.

Tim,

If you look at Faith's foredeck hardware arrangement, your picture is pretty close to my set up. The 10" bronze cleats are mounted near the deck edge much like the picture. I planned to make up the same snubber in your picture, and probably still would for riding a mooring. :D

Tim D.

08-07-2009, 09:01 PM

"Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery"

I've got my 10" cleats ready to be installed when the painting is done.:)

ebb

08-08-2009, 07:45 AM

Craig, Thanks for 'experimenting' with us!
And, ah, trying to inject some knowledge into this subject.

There is no embarrassment in explaining a knot you think we ought to know.
When you think about it, how easy is it to explain in writing how to tie a cleat wrap? Problem is you have to assume too much about the experience level of your readers. Look what had to come about with Knots by Grog, for instance, where words are replaced with step by step stop-action pictures.

Walk down the floats in any marina and you'll see many cleats tied up wrong.
Many boats too.

Just saw in Sail magazine an aid for the sheet winch - which is a disk, I guess peel-and-stick, that you put around the base of the winch. It has big arrows printed on it to show of course which way to wrap the sheet.
Wouldn't think it necessary, right?
You know, and George, Ebb too, will still be wrapping the jib-sheet backwards anyway.
Could use a peel-n-stick arrow thingy to help tying off a cleat properly.

About using chainhooks, once had a large rather crude galvanized pelican hook on a pendant that you engaged the arm into a chain link, It had a ring keeper that held the pelican shut. You slipped the ring up to upset the hook and release the chain. Never got to use it, but it would be exciting to keep your fingers out of it. Can release chain under load with it, which you can't with a chainhook.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________________
MANSON SUPREME
It's great that Craig continues to be impressed with the anchor!

I went back to the Manson home site and found that they seem to have expanded and rewritten the section on the Supreme. I think the anchor has become popular primarily through word-of-mouth, since the original presentation on the site wasn't all that impressive. The West Marine/Yachting Monthly test helped a lot. And reading through the forums, so did the negative spin from the Rocna forum-infiltration and hype that seemed to bother a lot of people. Manson's managing director who emails and evidently reps the anchors at boat shows said that he carries only the Supreme on his personal cruiser.

Noticed the statement that the Supreme 'fits any standard roller' now seems to be gone, except that Azure Marine still copies the phrase.*
I mentioned once to the rep that there wasn't any off-the-shelf roller that would actually work with the Supreme - that is my presumption - and suggested they design and sell their own.
That's not going to happen - but Windline might alter their humongous bruce style anchor roller to receive the Supreme.
Kingston has twice the selection of Windline and might have one that works good. Haven't looked into it.

The thing is there is no need for the anchor roller unit to be made in stainless. It would be imco more appropriate and CHEAPER to be GALVANISED. Manson could make the rollers COMPANIONS to the galvanized Supremo's and made from the same super alloy! There you go.

Made a 1/4" plywood model for my 25# and discovered the roller has to be even lower than the BRMs to engaged the curve in the shank near the fluke.
[Believe the bruce style roller shown in the photo above ia a Windline BRM.
The URM's would really hump up the curved Supreme when pulled all the way up because of where the roller is placed.] In fact I ended up with the model having two smaller diameter rollers and a narrower channel. That means less metal weight. Also made the channel bump up on the inboard end for a couple clevis pin holes to hold the anchor for self launching. Then looked into off-the-shelf wheel rollers and ...then got involved in other stuff.
If nothing else I have a 3D picture to compare with catalog dimensions - to try to match with a ready-made.

Got the shank to sit horizontal, and the fluke relatively snug against the two rollers in the model. But there is too much metal out front on a Windline BRM (whose dimensions I used to begin with, almost enough to be its own anchor! Has to be scaled W A Y down!
("Don't need no stickun Supreme, I jes toss the roller in, works purdy goood!")
Dang, do I have to make my own roller......???:eek:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
* (google) Convert Anchor Roller for CQR - Page 2 - Sail Net Community
[no urls come up for me anymore!]
Second post by 'Maine Sail' has a quality photo of a Garhauer made roller on a Catalina. The guy sez his new Manson "fits fine" where he used to have a CQR. The anchor is perched precariously on one point with his chain under full tension in his roller. And I think under more tension than the weight of the Supreme.
He's joking of course - the photo illustrates what the problem is with normal roller-channels and that 'standard rollers' really can't work with a Supreme. A roller should imco house the Supreme in a more neutral position - but still 'self launching'.
Actually the Supreme can't help but be self-launching - no matter what.
all imco.

Tony G

08-21-2009, 03:09 PM

Looked at the Garhauer bow rollers and compared the '30' to the windline urm-3. The 30 is 2" shorter in the overall length and about $70.00 shorter where it hurts. Got to thinking Craig is pretty pleased with his set-up minus scooching the roller forward a fraction of an inch, so why wouldn't this one work. We'll have to see how the two, Garhauer and Manson, fit.

I saw the Catalina photo Ebb brought to light.:confused: It may be that a slight modification is in order. Not like that hasn't happened before!

ebb

08-21-2009, 05:59 PM

Just glued together a model of an anchor roller-channel.
It uses two $8 trailer 'bow rollers': some nice 3" wide by 3" diameter flat bottom V-groove amber orange polyurethane ones by Stoltz.
The model is not reproducible, it's to see if the idea is possible.
And also to see if any off the shelf rollers can be substituted.

This model is a more rounded sport version of some of those DarthVador Windline claw rollers. It fits the shank of the Supreme 25 like a glove. It is too wide for my liking but that is because the width of the channel has to be wide enough to fit the shackle (with its stupid lop-sided pin-eye) that connects the chain to the anchor.
[A Crosby 2 ton WLL 3/8" Alloy anchor shackle is less than 2 1/2" wide. Can see a narrower channel if narrow wheels were available off the shelf.]

The sides of the channel at the inboard end bump up and have holes to engage the shackle holes in the end of the Supreme.
Maybe rig a clevis pin to be yanked out for self launching. That's the idea.
Convenient to have two holes (one is the end of the slider option). The holes are vertical, one above the other in the model.
The anchor in the roller would not need to be tensioned with a chainhook, as it can be held with a clevis pin.

The shank of the 25# is only about 14.5" long before it begins to seriously curve toward the blade. The model has the shank of the Supreme lying LEVEL in the channel. On edge, but horizontal. The anchor looks like it oughter look in this attitude.
I don't think we want to see it humped up and uncomfortable on the bow of an Ariel or Commander, right?
If you mounted this roller over your bow, the anchor in this position can do nothing else but self-launch.

The first roller has the bearing part of the V-groove below the plane of the channel. Because the shank sweeps down suddenly from the straighter part of the shank.
[What imco you have to look for in a Windline or Kingston is that the roller groove is below the plane of the channel - not level or above.]
.
The second roller is below the first and further outboard. Its groove engages the turn of the shank also. This is the roller that will turn and orient the anchor into the channel when being hauled aboard.
The wheels are close to 3" diameter. So you can only place them so close together and that's it.
The lower wheel is just above the curve where the shank does a U-turn to meet the blade when the Supremo is housed.

With a clevis pin in one of the holes in the top of the anchor, the anchor will not be able to jump out of the channel. It will move very little except wobble side to side because of the channel width. Might be able to figure that out with orange poly props!

Now whether such a short roller has enough length to be mounted with enough overhang to keep the sharp pointy end of the hook from gouging the bow...we'll have to see.

I'll try a fit this weekend.:o
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________
Craig's choice of Wineline's BMR3 and BMR4 certainly look like they can do the job. I'd like to have one to actually see how it fits (instead of reinventing the wheel so to speak) The Manson Supreme's wide shank makes the bail difficult to permanently place on my model because it has to stick way out to not get in the way of hoisting the anchor, and turning the anchor, into the rollers.

jan nikolajsen

03-28-2010, 10:30 AM

Looks like I'm a new Ariel owner, so it's time to start planning. No bow roller on this one, yet. Dismal ground tackle included in the deal.

Excuse me for rambling on a bit about some thoughts and ideas re turning this classic into what we think is a suitable coastal cruiser. We take long trips up the west coast of British Columbia, anchoring every night. The water is deep, mostly, and the bottom often sandy with weeds and lots of rocks.

I love anchors and all things associated. Maybe a carry over from a life's worth of climbing and mountaineering. The 2500 lbs 20 foot yawl we just sold had 3 anchors: 7.5 kg claw stern hook, 10kg claw working anchor and a 15kg plow storm. All with 50' of chain, 250' rode. Hundreds of pounds of steel and perlon.

Since the money all went to those wonderfully sculpted hunks of metal, we had no electronics save a hand held VHF:(.

Now we're going to a 5500 lbs boat. The cruising grounds will also extend to more remote, desolate and potentially challenging areas. And the Ariel squats her stern easily, I've seen on pictures. All of the above are good reasons to invest in heavy ground tackle.

Still have the 15kg plow, but never really liked it that much. It worked for the 20 footer because of sheer mass vs light boat, but when diving on it, it always just laid there on its side half buried.

Thinking our new working anchor should be one of those new and well advertised Rocnas, size 10 with 50' of 1/4" chain - 250' of 3 strand. Heavier chain and anchor, while ideal, will make it hard for anybody aboard but me weighing anchor. Stepping up to windlass just seems like too much gear, money and clutter, so the balance will be delicate between sleeping soundly and light enough stuff to handle.

People say these spade designs work so good, that I can't think of anything better as a back-up/storm hook. Maybe I'll throw the plow in for a spare, and also have a good length of heavy chain around for those well forecasted blows we seem to get a couple of every summer.

Many spots that we end up in are narrow and confined rocky defiles in a sheer coastline, and has no swinging room. Most often we stern tie to shore, for which we have 800' of retired climbing ropes in about 7/16" diameter. But occasionally a stern anchor is required. Here I think either a 7.5kg claw or 6kg Rocna. These need lots of rode, 300' plus, so one can monkey around without worrying about shortage and scope, and so, god forbid, it can be used to kedge off a grounding. It also needs to be readily available, with convenient line storage.

The bow roller looks to be the URM-3 from Windline. It's sturdy and well made, holds the Rocna fine under way. Have to move the line chocks aft some distance to clear up space.

Stay tuned for pics.

Bill

03-28-2010, 11:02 AM

If you have not already, you might want to review the "New Anchor" thread at:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1295

Tim D.

03-28-2010, 11:06 AM

If you have not already, you might want to review the "New Anchor" thread at:

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?t=1295

Is that the one where everybody dies in the end ? :D

(sorry couldn't help myself :o)

jan nikolajsen

03-28-2010, 11:24 AM

Oh no. Another 10+ page thread I have to read. Will I get anything done this weekend?

Since I started thinking about this Ariel I have basically sat in front of the computer.....

ebb

03-29-2010, 09:14 AM

Me too, always at the computer.....
And I also get off on the sculpture of an anchor!!!

That's why I like the curved sweeps of the Supreme
over the busy self-conscious design of the Rocna.
I can be persuaded that these rollbar anchors both set well and immediately.
BUT the CLEAN lines of the Supreme just appeal to me.
To me an excellent example of FORM following FUNCTION.

Here, to increase your reading load (97 posts, 32 guys) is a forum worth looking at - it appears more literate than most - but remember, there is no accounting for a poster's opinion based on an anchor site's hype (notably Rocna, but the Raya is coming on strong!) These are guys for the most part using these anchors.

google> Rocna or Manson Supreme?? - Yachting and Boating World Forums
www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t... - United Kingdom

commanderpete

04-05-2010, 12:56 PM

I didn't see that thread right away ebb. Here's another

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=230837&highlight=rocna

That place seems like a good, busy forum, but the anchor threads everywhere sound about the same to me.

I was thinking (yet again) about getting the Manson about a year ago. This place seemed to have the best price at that time

http://www.newjsi.com/detail.aspx?ID=1966

I just don't do any adventurous anchoring. When I go to West Marine to look at the Manson it seems to be an enormous heavy beast. A good thing I suppose

Commander 147

04-11-2011, 11:05 AM

Ebb

Did you ever come up with a solution to the bow roller for the Manson Supreme? That is the anchor you were looking at isn't it?

c_amos

04-11-2011, 12:20 PM

I have had my Windline URM-3 on the bow of Faith with excellent results.

The Manson likes it, the bail clears well, and the anchor sits on it nicely.

The curve of the anchor rides on the front of the roller when the rode is tensioned (secured)... this picks up the tip of the anchor nicely, and cuts down on the rattle / clanging that can happen in rough conditions.

https://windline.com/images/products/URM-3%20Large.jpg

I thought I had put that in this thread (http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?901-Deck-hardware-plan-and&highlight=deck+plan), but must have missed that.

Commander 147

04-11-2011, 02:20 PM

Craig

Thank you very much for that info. I just read your other post about the way you have all the deck hardware set up also. I'm always looking forward to the projects that remain for Destiny and now that I'm figuring things out for the cabin I'm looking towards my deck recore and what I want to do at the bow for my anchor. I figure while I'm doing the deck recore is a good time to put in place what I need for a bow roller also. Thank you very much.

ebb

04-11-2011, 02:41 PM

Swear I will get a photo of the roller model for a 25lb Supreme.
Words are useless and so may be the model. Had second thoughts and sidetracked on whether an aluminumm plate roller could be done.
Anyway the model is photogenic and I will get it out somewhere for the curious.

It proposes two clear amber polyurethane V-rollers from a boat trailor supply. $8 each.
They are positioned at the end of a channel like the UMR-3 but the rollers are below the level of the channel.
The top roller closest to the channel has its V-groove below the channel.
When the anchor is brought all the way into the channel the rollers become snug in the curve of the shank. The anchor cannot move pulled against the roller wheels. They ride on 1/2" bolts.
The upper part of the anchor shank is fairly straight and sits flush in the channel bottom.
The end of the channel (instead of petering out like the UMR-3) bumps up into twin radiused ends.
Through these ears a couple of over-size side to side holes that correspond to the two shackle holes in the shaft
of the Supreme.
One of those holes corresponding to the slide, of course.
Using one of these you can immobilize the anchor with a clevis pin through the channel - even with an anchor shackle seized to the anchor! Thanks to the two hole option Manson designed into the shaft end of the Supreme.
This is another feature that makes the Supreme unique.
Because the fluke curves around the rollers, and the shank locked with a through pin (or lashed) imco
NOTHING WILL MOVE THIS ANCHOR OFF THIS ROLLER.

In theory a pin thru the anchor and channel sides could be rigged to be pulled remotely to 'self launch' the anchor.
Nearly all the anchor weight is outboard so even with a tightly housed anchor yanking the pin lets the anchor go. That's an assumption, of course.

If I get the pic out I'd very much like feedback. This is only an 'idea' at the moment.
Seriously considering welding up a working model in mild steel and galvanizing rather than messing with aluminum!!!

c_amos

04-11-2011, 02:56 PM

FWIW,

I did a search twice for threads with 'roller' in the title... this thread did not come up???

Commander 147

04-11-2011, 03:46 PM

Ebb

I think I'm following you but a picture as they say is worth a thousand words. If you post it I will give you my thoughts.

ebb

04-13-2011, 12:40 AM

Our mighty chief cybernaut now has some shots of the Supreme roller model.

Don't know how they managed to email, don't know where they will show up, or when!

....then we'll see what for? (drum roll segue here)

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________________________
"A tree is a tree, how many more of them do you need to look at?"
Ronald Regan

Bill

04-17-2011, 03:06 PM

Here are some photos from Ebb. He will explain . . .:cool:

ebb

04-17-2011, 11:46 PM

THANKS AGAIN BILL!!!

Can be seen in the second pic that this anchor roller is in complete agreement with the anchor, if I say so myself:o
The dowel 'bolts' show where the rollers are.
The upper roller is right there at the end of the channel bottom. Its flat-bottomed V-groove just lower than the channel.
The second roller is very close to its mate with just enough room for a piece of right angle to be welded in between them.
This means rigidity is independant of the roller bolts.
Off the shelf rollers can be swapped out easily without altering anything.
Pipe sockets for the 'adjustable' line-keeper-loop add stiffness and fairlead to the long edge of the face.
The drop of the line is taken entirely by the lower wheel which makes a nice smooth plastic lead at almost any angle.
No metal - as the line is normally cradled in the V groove of the round rimmed roller. If it's pulled up out of the roller the line will lead against the pipe pieces. Smoother than any chock I've ever seen.

Width of the channel is dictated by the width of the wheels.
(Have seen narrower upscale$$$ rollers, but a certain width is needed to get the anchor shackle to slide easy in the channel.)
If you had to sail with the Supreme in the channel, a couple pieces of closedcell foam on either side of the shank would keep the anchor quiet. On a piece of line they would just popout and remain as the anchor is launched.

You will note that the clevis pin looks like an acid brush.
Actually it's a model of a dual purpose pin that can be used to clean mud out of the chain links as they come aboard.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Later EDIT: About the Supreme: Around the time Mantus anchor was making a splash,
I had a conversation with a presenter at the boat show Mantus tent. He pointed out that
his Mantus' fluke is beveled on the top of the digging edges. And Supreme is not. Turns
out it was a bloody revelation. Shook me that I had to be shown to see where I was blind.

A couple of years ago I spent time looking at the remaining anchors that had become
popular, and were somewhat attainable or popular in Europe.
In 2014 I erupted on the New Generation Anchor site... When I realized finally that what
we had was very suspicious, anchor testing was skewed or badly designed. That there is no
way to grade an anchor by its looks. All anchors get better the heavier they are, but smaller
cruising boats that require boat saving anchors, have to err on the lighter side -- and therefor
must rely on particularly well designed anchors. I'm susceptible to being influenced by the
authoritarian hype that sells an anchor.

Time passes, look more soberly at the Manson Supreme, which does well in the usual
bottoms videos use to show anchoring prowess in sand and mud, mostly. That the Mantus
guy said: "Manson Supreme is chamfered (sharpened) on the wrong side." killed the fan in
me once and for all. Immediately began thinking of ways to improve my Supreme. ...and
concluded it wasn't possible, even tho I had clear images of the upgraded hook. I then
looked balefully at the Mantus and discovered it too could use stream lining. Which I could
do if I was 40years younger...

Supreme, if it drags in grass, will gather the grass in its hoop. This has been reported by
owners. The way out is to cut the roll bar off. Mr. Fixit says: make the roll bar an accessory.
Have cups where bar is now, slip a light, smaller diameter version into the cups, fasten with
clevis pins. The present roll-bar takes tip weight away, and may be the reason the anchor
skips along when towed in competitor videos.

Remove the triangular welding brackets under the blade. Proven to self that for a blade to
penetrate multiple bottoms, it must be free and clear. If the roll is kept, it should be
lighter and have any gusseting on top, and aligned so as not to catch detritus or bottom.
The blade on top must open up even further to shed sticky material. Mantus is flat with
wide open bends. I still enjoy the looks of the Supreme. But to me it's dated now.
Extra metal that creates the slide on the shaft could be designed away, making the fluke
even more willing to dive in. Doubtful that a cruiser will use a sliding shackle, ever!

The back of the fluke should be rounded so that when dropped it will not stand upright
and get chain entangled. There should be a retrieval hole to attach a float.
This cruising version of the Supreme could be lighter and dive in immediately. More
stream lined, actually next size heavier, and still be stowable as the primary.

Commander 147

04-18-2011, 04:18 AM

Ebb

It is obvious you design things in a manner similar to me. That is Function first followed by durability of design and finally by form.

Your design seems to address many of the issues a good roller should and I especially like the locking pin/chain cleaner at the end of the shank. ;) I also agree that once pinned this anchor is not going anywhere. That is after all the most important job the roller has. All of the other things it needs to do are for convience.

You did ask for feed back though so here goes.

1.) Tell me what your thoughts were for putting the top roller below the surface of the channel. In my way of thinking by moving that roller up to say 1/4" or 3/8" above the bottom of the channel you do a couple of good things. One you get the steel shank of the anchor off the bottom of the metal channel and reduce the potential for clanking. It also reduces the amount of steel rubbing against steel in the channel which could create burrs that would chafe the anchor rode. And finally it gets the anchor rode off the end of the channel when the anchor is deployed and reduces again chafe.

2.) Have you tried to rock the anchor back and forth when it is pinned like it would while sailing? Is it possible for the anchor flukes or shaft to hit the metal sides of the roller? If so you may want to tweek the dimension so it cannot hit and cause damage to the galvanizing on the anchor itself and cause that irritating clanking. I also like your bent rod line keeper but again if the anchor can contact the metal sides of the roller then you may need to move it a little further aft in order to reduce the sides of the roller assy. height and still have a place to attach it.

As you can tell from my comments above I believe when the anchor is in place the only metal to metal contact that should be made is the pin through the end of the shank. And even while launching and retreiving a minimum of metal to metal contact should be designed in as best as possible.

You obviously designed the roller around the dimensions of the anchor but for my own curiousity what are the overall dimensions of the roller assembly?

Due to the shape of the assembly you would need to make it either by casting it or by a welded assembly. You could easily due it out of aluminum as a welded assembly.

ebb

04-18-2011, 11:57 AM

Jerry, REALLY appreciate your thoughtful critique.
This especially since we are talking about a specific piece of gear you may have little interest in.

(1) Not much of the 'straight' part of the shank actually sits on the channel surface. There is a slight curve in the shank. And at the end there is a slight bump out where the shackles are pinned. So it really rests on two points METAL to METAL. At the back end and more importantly on the channel bottom where it ends and the cheeks begin. The roller center is 1/8" below the metal. Bad.

This is a great observation of yours, that there should be no metal contact at this wear point in the channel. The roller ( without changing the fairly close tolerances in the design) can be moved up the 3/16" needed to insure the anchor shank - its rather hard edged and narrow shape - is resting on the plastic.
My thoughts are that this is a mistake that as a result of your critique is going to be designed out of existence in the final model. Fantastic!
From the same trailer parts source, flat thick plates and solid dowels of p.urethane are available. The plate can be cut and used in chaffing spots. Dowels can be shaped on a lathe and make rollers of any dimension.

(2) The anchor does wiggle in the width of the roller housing, not easily because of the anchor weight and does not tilt far enough over to the sides to scrape them. imco. Of course it's not possible to do a real metal to metal test, the model being composed of 5min epoxy and 3'16" doorskin and rather fragile.
The anchor shank sits naturally, if a little loosely, in the flat bottom of the V-grooves - but in the center of the rollers. The shank engages both rollers when housed. The fluke doesn't look like it will wander from its location once the shank end is pinned. Once unpinned the Supreme is free to move but its weight will tend to keep the shank/chain/and line in the groove when launching.
When sailing with the anhcor in the roller a couple pieces of foam on each side of the shank should keep the anchor upright and still.
A plus, if this system works, is that the anchor is neutrally housed without tension on the chain or line. Immobilized in the roller the anchor can have other lengths of chain and line attached without problem.

Hauling in the anchor and have it enter the rollers correctly is another kettle - as the anchor could be twisting and turning due to line and chain twist. But maybe that's a problem with all anchor retrievals?
Once the shank reaches the first roller I think the anchor will quiet down. But there is nothing like experience. Or a better idea!!!
The more forward and lower poly roller will get the anchor to turn sooner than a single roller.
It doesn't have turn 90 degrees to get it to start going into the channel. Maybe that also helps the anchor find its position easier as it's pull up and in.
BUT I see what you mean! The anchor dangling from the roller as it enters or leaves is free to hit or scrape the sides of the channel AND ALSO THE LOOP. And the stem of the boat.... I don't know how this is avoided?
Nature of the beast?

Will take a closer look at the tube and loop. This idea generated out of using aluminum for the whole roller assembly - a way to strengthen those long flat ends that might get stressed with a side pull of chain or warp. The polyurethane rollers do all fair-leading - unlike Windline or Kingston models that have an outward bend in the metal cheek pieces. Hate to give up the side pipes and 180 loop in a galvanized anchor roller.
The loop at the moment can be moved up or down. When the sweet spot is found, a method of attachment must be found, maybe a fastening drilled through the pipe and loop. I'm sure
that the loop should removable without too much fuss so that the anchor and gear can be lifted out of its cradle.

Have had a little bit of experience with hot dip galvanizing. The good traditional stuff can take rough handling. Like you expect from the anchor itself. Real hot dip won't readily chip off like you see on some bargain anchors. Constant rubbing in one place is to be avoided. Basically galvanised iron is a forgiving combo. Exposed iron in a scrape or spot will often not rust because of the influence of the surrounding bonded zinc coating.

Imco there will be less problem with a hot dip roller than with stainless or aluminum, both
finicky and undependable.

Most Windline and Kingston anchor rollers are made with single sheet stamping. The roller is designed to avoid welding.
This Supremo Roller housing has to be fabricated. Welded. Because it obviously can't be folded flat. Two ways: weld it up from separate flat shaped pieces.
A second way is to bend the sides and half a channel and weld them together down the middle.

Numbers:
Channel flat from end to the drop roller angle = 14 5/8".
Total length from pipes to end...................... = 19 3/4".
Bottom of cheek to top of channel................. = 7 1/2".
OD width of fitting....................................... = 3 3/16"
Poly rollers are 2 3/4" W with well rounded 3" D ends.
The V-roove bottom has a 1 1/2" D with a flat of 5/8"

An important measure is the apparent clearance from the sharp tip of the Supreme to the stem of the boat when the anchor is housed. This leaves about 10 1/2" inboard to attach the fixture. And is speculative. Nevertheless that leaves little channel to bolt to the deck because half of the roller is bowsprited. The roller might be installed to a side away from the stem - but still too close for comfort.
One solution would be to design a longer channel with a 1/4-5/16" chain link pawl at the end, still keeping the two pin hole bump-up to lock in the anchor shank. Could make the channel 4 or 5" longer which might counter the cantlever effect with more thru-deck attachment.
Longer channel equals more weight.

Many thanks for your thoughts!:D

Commander 147

04-18-2011, 02:46 PM

A plus if this system works is that the anchor is neutrally housed without tension on the chain or line.

I agree I really like that aspect of it.

Ebb could you rig your model someplace that would allow you to drop the anchor to the ground and pull it up several times to see how the anchor reacts as you lift it? For example what happens when the anchor comes up with the fluke pointed away from the boat? Does it start into the rollers and come up until the shank changes direction from verticle to horizontal and how does it act when it flips around? I'm a firm believer in testing every aspect of something in the design stage.

One solution would be to design a longer channel with a 1/4/5/16" chain link pawl at the end, still keeping the two pin hole bump-up to lock the anchor shank. Could make the channel 4 or 5" longer which might counter the cantlever effect with more thru-deck attachment.

The build it stronger than it ever needs to be part of me thinks this would be a good idea. How much extra weight could you be talking about? Maybe 4 to 5 lbs. max.

ebb

04-18-2011, 06:11 PM

Jerry,
When we hang the Supreme with a rope from its shackle, the anchor has a "tendency" to come into the loading postition. With the shackle directly over the tip of the fluke.

The fluke points to where the shackle is on the head of the shank with the concave shank correctly in line to being pulled over the rollers. Well, of course it does! On a calm day.
However on your Bouncing Betty in Beaufort 6 you are going to have to get lucky.
Or be there to guide it in and over the wheelies.
I can see snagging the marvelous hoop with a boathook to help guide the anchor to the wheels where I'd expect the V-grooves to direct and correct the shank upright if it is coming up sideways. Haven't done any of this.
But the anchor is too influenced by its weight and wide blade to want to come into the rollers sideways.
And the 'natural' curve of the shank means that its least resistance is the inside of the curve.
Can't see the anchor ever coming in on the convex or bowed side of the shank. Never happen!

Have seen in a video of the Supreme being hauled up by a windlass into a Bruce Windline.
The fluke point is always toward the stem of the boat.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________
Went to google to find that video. Nope.
Did find that Rocna is still piggy-backed onto the Manson Supreme success. I specified Manson alone in my google search... but the second website on the first page is a Peter Smith
I'm NOT an anchorSmith fan. To me its like those infinite off subject China sites that always show up uninvited to the party.
Not to remind folks that the Shlocna is now a Chinese anchor!

Went to the Manson site and explored their testimonials for the Supreme. 100% New Zealand anchor.
Any photos, especially those of the anchor in a roller are postage stamp sized and cannot be zoomed. #%!!$^%$&%&^!!!
There is NO video on retrieving OR dropping the anchor. Just hype.
In any other situation I would consider this suspect, as obviously the anchor holder is an important issue. But Manson doesn't want
me to see how their anchors sit in off the shelf rollers. On some forums housed Supremes look precarious and unhappy.
There are some non-detailed custom launching devises.... Nothing for the bucket proletariat and.... inquiring minds.

c_amos

04-18-2011, 07:33 PM

.....Did find that Rocna is still piggy-backed onto the Manson Supreme success.....

Yup. Oh the drama as the Mocna guys try to defend their Chinese steel product...

... I would not trust my ship to it!

---------

You have (as we all have become accustomed to) elevated the anchor roller to an art form. Hat's off to you as always.

FWIW,

I have done a whole bunch of retrievals in different conditions... the Manson will 'self load' pretty well... once it comes up to the roller on my bow, it rarely tries to load upside down... if so I can just lower it and turn the chain slightly and gravity takes over.

If I can help in any way, let me know... I know my name is still mud on the board for not finding the pictures I took of your boat when I was out there... I can probably take some video of lowering and raising the anchor if it would do you any good? Let me know what you need... give me an excuse to goo goof around on the boat.

I am sure you are accounting for the forward radius of the roller (sides). Might want to flare them out... straight edges will be tough with the chain, and will chaff line rode quickly.

Congrats on a great design... if your going into production, let me know what I owe you for the 2nd one. :)

ebb

04-19-2011, 06:31 PM

Craig, since you are our active SUPREME research and development director....
it's great to hear from you.
I hope you are planning another voyage soon that we all can go along on!

I wonder if this 25# Manson would become more popular with our ships if an anchor roller came with it.
But you seem happy enough with your Windline.
It certainly is not a weighty fixture and if it works for you this ole man is going to listen.

It was fun to make something tailored to the Supreme.
Translating that 3D doorskin sketch into something that will actually work is the hard part.
Can't do it myself.
Touched on a very strong low carbon steel alloy called 4130. It has stainless elements in it, like chromium and molybdenum, but it isn't stainless. Tubes of the alloy are used by guys building aircraft. It's easy to weld and commonly available. The alloy has been used in anchor flukes.

[LATER EDIT. Have removed a paragraph here after discovering that 4130 is essentially NOT galvanizable because of its alloy structure. Nickel needs to be included in the formula to get a zinc coating to stick good. Won't happen with this aircraft steel. Nickel containing 300 series stainless steels can be galvanized. How bout that?
If I find the time 1018 cold rolled mild steel looks promising for a virtual galvanized model.
tensile yield strength for 1018 mild steel is 53,700psi. 316 stainless tensile is 60,200psi. Close enough for a cigar???
Hot dip galvanizing is typically a paper thin 4mil (1/256 of an inch) coating. It chemically bonds with the steel and has a predicted service life of 75 YEARS
We can use s.s bolts with it. what else can we ask?]

The big cheeks (jowls) of the model makes it impossible for the roller body to be stamped from a single flat sheet like the URM3
The shape of the housing could be made in two pieces with a nice clean right angle press bend on the sides that would meet in center channel and welded together.

I figured most twisting moment of the housing happens when the anchor is being hauled in. The jowls are welded together between the rollers with a piece of angle, So if it's going to move, both sides of the roller assembly have to move.

I'm sorry I was so dumb as not to show the rollers inside with a photo.

The bottom roller is as low as it can go. Some of the poly rim is below the metal cheeks. Good for line but also keeps the anchor from scraping the housing. If the line is in the groove and more or less straight down it can skew almost 90 degrees either side in the nicely rounded poly roller - near no metal.
When the anchor line is pulled out above the lower roller, where it might be with a lot of scope out in a blow, the line is cradled in the upper V-roller - if the line goes off to one side it is met with the radius of the tubes.
Certainly good chaffing gear is needed if the housing is used while anchoring.

Played around with the location and angle of the tubes to best locate the loop.
It seemed to work out best as in the model with a wildly arcing anchor shaft coming aboard. Don't know what will happen to the loop if the anchor is let go in a freefall!
As it is the straight-up loop is convenient to remove from this position. We can make it so the height is adjustable and removable.
The model has the loop holder tubes shaved flat on the bearing side which makes the smaller seam at the leading edge easy to weld closed - and by radiusing the edge of the metal cheek and weld smooth it will fair into a seamless curve with the tubes.

The cheeks can't be bent out like the Windline ULB because the poly rollers are there. They need the flat to ride against to guide chain line, shackes and anchor.
The leading edge of the cheeks could have been curved outward instead of having tubes welded there.
However, tubes along that leading edge makes for a convenient dual socket for the loop. Seemed like a no brainer.
It turns out that the transition from the lower plastic roller to the metal tubing out front there is also 'seamless,' without a sharp edge.
The tubes together with the welded angle crosspiece hopefully makes the dual roller cheek assembly plenty strong.
Strength with insurance is a problem in an open channel anchor housing.
There is no way to box the channel
Have to depend on the strength of the material to keep its intended shape.
One thing with steel though is that if it gets bent we can bang it back into submission.

Can this anchor roller be used with a similar sized Bruce or Delta? Or any other anchor? It would have to be able to bring aboard ANY anchor. Even a Crocna!
:D Ideas?

ebb

04-20-2011, 07:46 AM

Craig has posted the latest in the controversy between these two rollbar anchors. n the New Generation Anchor thread.
[This is OUR Craig Amos. Not Craig Smith, the Rocna ninja.]

Rocna has been buried and getting fat like a tick on a dog in Manson's hide for years.

The war has heated up ever since Rocna went to China - culminating in a recent challenge by Manson
to each have an anchor of similar weight tested side by side on a metal testing machine by an independant company.

ROCNA DID NOT ACCEPT THE FACE OFF.

The testers then used off the shelf anchors from a vendor and put them on the Rack.

The testing machine tore both brands of anchor apart!
Numbers proving that the Manson Supreme was indeed more resistant to torture,

Craig Amos has prefaced his post with a comical photo of a limp Rocna whose shank is bent like made of clay. Hard to believe it's real!
Could be that it's actually a strange deep sea manta ray caught by its tail and winched up into a questionable anchor bow roller.

Go see it at the New Generation Anchor thread here in these Dissussion pages.

Craig has been testing the Supreme on his cruising Ariel for five years now
- without a problem.
The Manson, in Craig's most extreme evaluation yet, held its ground (as advertised) throughout a name brand hurricane.

Has me convinced, by golly!