ALTERNATIVE MAINSHEET CONTROL?

[Bill]

On page 64 of the July Sail mag, there is a photo of a Precision 23 trailersailer. From the photo, it appears that the mainsheet controls are attached to the backstay. :confused: The boat also has the now obligitory seats above the transom. :mad:

[Tony G]

Bill
We have a O'Day 22 which has a main sheet system leading off of the backstay. One nice thing is the sheet is always about shoulder level. Relax, it's just another potential failure:)

[ebb]

Begs the question: Is there a better place? Backstay as a boom control point is a fatal flaw to me too! With the knee the way it is in the Ariel and the kitchen spatula grade stainless 'plate' - that "control" would soon be out of control, out of the boat, and there goes the mast!

But Tony G makes a point about the sheet and where it is in the cockpit. Personally I would like to try to get it out of the cockpit. I've wanted to put a traveler over the companion way for mid-boom sheeting. Wanted to incorporate a couple of heavy duty stainless tubes in an arch that would be part of a hard dodger. Looking at Geoff's, given my size and prowess, my version (very much the same height) would be a real head banger. Because a dodger to be a dodger has to provide protection aft of the c'way, it conflicts with egress below. Can't be too tall because of aesthetics and windage.

I was going to attach the tubes to the bridgedeck. Mid-boom sheeting to three bails on the boom is inefficient - the further aft the better and more powerful the blocks are.

So the question is: Why not put the arch just forward of where the cockpit level traveler is now? Outside the coamings. It would be a double tube so the rail and car could be placed in the middle of the width away from fingers.

Other advantages:
Could be incorporated with the pushpit.
Provides a steadying point in the cockpit.
Provides a boom gallows.
And a bimini support.
Attachment of other gear like s. panels.

Harebrained?? Or too Hunter?

[marymandara]

...and lots of weight aloft and windage too!
just my 2 cents' worth, but the regular 'spaghetti' rig is just great as long as you have a good vang and spares the whole traveler issue.
on these and similar boats i really like a removable midboom vang using a a sliding horseshoe (if you're lucky enough to have or find one--i'm not) of a fico vang strap. i like the horseshoe better as the strap sometimes hassles with my outhaul.
anyway, the vang tackle then becomes removably attatched to the boom and a padeye in the bridgedeck. the vang can also be taken to windward to a stanchion base, or run forward to a stanchion base even , to use as a preventer. there is a great deal of power in one of these and you can control the sail shape very, very well--more so than most "conventional" vangs! you end up with something that gets you most of the way to a well-installed traveler's performance, but much less money and less strings to pull. simple reality is that unless i was racing with lots of crew and one fellow just to fiddle with the mainsheet and traveler, the traveler would not be constantly tweaked and adjusted and i doubt i'd perform any better--or as well--as my 100.00 setup lets me do easily single or shorthanded.
dave

[Mike Goodwin]

I have sailed and owned boats with mid boom sheets and never saw one I liked for sail control. It's too Winnabago and not within easy reach of the helmsman which is a safety issue in my style of sailing. Dumping the main needs to be done in a split second . I can sail my Ariel with one hand on the Lewmar cranking in the jib and the other on the mainsheet while steering with my knees against the tiller.
What is worse, is when the boom is short and the sheet is on the end in mid-cockpit in front of the helm, now that is a real mess. Mid boom and mid cocpit sheeting are ok for serious crewed race boats that are never cruised or single handed, IMHO .
I was sailing today on a friends Ranger 37, full blown race boat with tracks everywhere and 14 winches and it has a mid boom sheet, a nice Harken system that works well , but it requires a person always within reach of the controls and the helm is not even close when standing in front of the wheel, you are still 3 steps from the sheet .

[ebb]

Points taken. I'm going to take this as a discussion because I really am not a sailor. Yet.

Wouldn't conceive of not rigging a hard vang, I'm not sure how this relates to sheeting angles.

I'm convinced that mid-boom sheeting arrangements are last resort. Therefor there is a sort of revelation in considering end of boom to travelor arrangements at different heights. Let's consider the traveler at one foot progressions up from its traditional place at the end of the cockpit.

I have here (came off the http://www.pocketcruisers.com/contessa%20corner/L'Epice%20Traveller.jpg page) a picture of a traveler on a Contessa 26 that stands on what looks like one inch tube about a foot up off the rear deck which isn't much as the tiller is transom hung. Nothing too unusual looking, pretty shippy. This arrangement allows closer-in intermediate uprights for the horizontal support.

At three feet up you'ld have to start cross bracing, I guess, and start thinking about the pull forward on the (now) arch. At 4 and 5 feet up it's a whole other ball game. Windage, weight, but maybe something relatively light could be designed that wouidn't look like the targa arch the Hunter's have. I mean I wouldn't assume that anything one could come uo with for an Ariel would have any relation to the Hunter.

OK, where's the sheet lead go if one had it up high? To the coach roof and back? Where does the winch get mounted if not in the usual place? For a moment there I saw them mounted horizontally on the uprights, por and starboard! At the one foot level you still could use the same coaming winches. Then again, maybe just one turning block would bring the sheet down to the cockpit coaming for this familiar sheeting arrangement.

For sure, 338 is looking at something off deck level. So, are you all really happy with the sheet and traveler in the back of the cockpit. Hasn't anybody being nearly disfingered yet???

In the best of all worlds is this traveler in the best place? The best place is out of the cockpit, NO? .......sigh.............

[ebb]

aboard the trailer sailer on pg 64 in the July Sail mag -
with hardly a breeze shows a considerable bend in the stay with the sheet bar-taut in the blocks.
Innovation is hard to take sometimes BUT what do you think is going on with the article writer's new furler? Doesn't mention this mainsheet contraption in the upgrading at all. So it must work just fine no matter how hard it blows.

[Just across the page there is a photo of a Saga 48 that has dispensed with mast, boom and sail. No need for pesky details such as sheet leads. You can't afford teak because they put a whole tree's worth inside this one! I'd say that the millenium falcon profile of its hull is somehow more appealing than Mike's ideal winnerbago on the next page over, mostly naked girls on the mats and burly guys in black shirts and cutoffs at the controls. No doubt the good life itself and all controls exists entirely on the targa arch!]

Well, thanks to all for the plethora of astounding ideas, many with real application to our boats. I have, however, come up with a perfect solution to raising the traveler. I found at a garage sale a couple of chrome legged barstools, circa 1960, with maroon naugahyde seats that can be mounted in the quarters on the stern and connected with some tube. A unique pushpit, I think. The traveler can be bolted onto this. The barstools revolving seats will create versitile seating that will surpass anything the modern swedes, danes or hunters have come up with. ...........sticky ebb

[tha3rdman]

Resurect this thread with some help from Dr. Frankenstien, . . . or was it a Hunter 343. The latter I had seen yesterday out in the mouth of the Susquhanna, and in the quest for a good bimini design that fits the needs of my crew, there it was a Hunter 343 with what I called a "rollbar" (though the hunters was made of fiberglass). As ebb described it was just forward of the aftmost cockpit, and the main sheet was attached to the top of it. My thought was thats perfect, it keeps the sheets at the boom-end and provides a place to attach the Bimini and would be able to leave it up while underway with out the sheets getting hung up on the bimini.

After reading Ebbs post i like the double bar thought, mine was a gawdy 2.5inch stainless tube, doing a double tub I would think you could slim it down to inch tubes with stringers every foot or so, the other benifit it would add its own forward/aft stabilization.

Anything You can think of that I missed or didnt give enough thought?

[eric (deceased)]

and that "roll bar" gets ripped out of its attatchment points.I have seen complete travellor tracks ripped out.my point of view is that no matter how much money and equiptment you put on a 25foot 7 inch l.o.d. boat its still a 25 foot 7 inch l.o.d. boat.{an' theezr' darn goodnz' at that} so theres no need goin' overboard (pun not intended) :o

[ebb]

3rdman,suh,
Check out the new Com-Pac Eclipse 21. A great idea to borrow or steal!

The Eclipse mainsheet arrangement is perfect and simple, and seems adaptable for my purposes, anyway, on 338. And anybody else who wants to get the traveler out of the cockpit.

Found a full page drawing of the '21' with a clear side view of the boat that shows the END-BOOM sheet going forward under the boom from a boom-high A-frame, dropping down just befor the gooseneck and coming aft on the cabin top. Can't imagine anything sweeter. The travelor is adjusted with small blocks on the uprights. The traveler frame also serves as a gallows and, one would suppose, as a attachment for a bimini and/or a tent. (Sorry, don't know how to post the picture here.)

Hesitate calling the arch on the Com-Pac an ARCH, as Hunter seems to have a copyright on that - and some humungous targas of pipe and/or plastic to prove it.

The Eclipse 21 mainsheet is imco totally adaptable to normally rigged Ariels.
I'd be interested in responding to thoughts on this upright traveler system's translation to the Ariel's rear cockpit. What do you think???

[eric (deceased)]

the only purpose for a traveler in my opinion is for better access to the lazarette.my idea conforms to the K.I.S.S. theory----a 2:1 purchase on the mainsheet.The less line in the cockpit the better. a single block amidships,sans the traveler and its "stuff" with oversized running blocks and no winch----no camcleat ---rather an oversized "jamcleat" and a larger than usual diameter sheet as well.dont forget to over size the thru-bolting and appropriate sized backing block under the lazarette.a good work out for the arms as well. :)

[ebb]

#338 will have a taller 'Traveler A-frame' as we will have STANDING headroom in the cockpit. Not sure what the outcome will be. Don't want the frame to be too rediculous!

But if you are going to keep the standard boom height, The traveler frame will be easier to engineer to sustain the "accidental gybe." Maybe some break-away feature could be factored in.

The Eclipse has NO blocks in the cockpit. This could be seen as a good idea.

Could argue if ANY improvement to sail set and boat control is really necessary. The traveler is like the rigid vang - you can do without it, but aren't you giving up a whole lot of tune to go back to what was befor ???

[eric (deceased)]

just walk around the deck an' make sure nuttinz' too tight.let the rig breath.it will tighten up by itself in the wind.my thought is that anything gained by "fine tuning" will be lost by towing the oversized propellor for the hydro-electric power source.and the vane's pendulum,the dodger,etc.the propellor for the sea generator was/is a 3 bladed type used to propel a 30 foot inboard motor boat.mounted on the end of a 4 foot long aluminum shaft---this baby would leap out of the water and back spin between wave crests.inevitably some hull speed is/was lost---but not noticable or even worth while mentioning.

[Mike Goodwin]

That Hunter "roll bar" has got to be the ugliest P.O.S. I have ever seen on a sailboat .
Might as well get fishnet stockings and red lipstick for the old Ariel and really whore her up.
Nothing worth copying on a Hunter to an elegant Ariel .

Of course that's just my opinion .

[tha3rdman]

That's more or less exactly what I was thinking, same general shape as well, with the forward bar kickin' forward tward the bottom to provide support for a down wind run. Though I do understand Eric's consern as for the strenth and it being the weak point. It would definatly have to be a heavy walled tubing, but for added "oh sheit" factor one could carry a emergency block set for a traditional rigging for when the wind pipes up.

Edit: Found a better picture of the system, i see the aft bar attached to the transom . . . I don think going back that far would look right, have to go down to 97 and look at and imagine, My aft most would be straight to the deck, and the forward bar kick at a 45deg about 18 inch about the deck making a nice strudy triangle.

[ebb]

Mike, ok, ok, I takes yor eye as a goodun. Is the traveler dispensable?

Can a cruising Ariel go with blocks on the quarters and a double on the boom?

I have no particular feeling for the traveler unless it is going to increase my speed by at least a knot and a half.
What do you say, Mike?

OK, what about a gallows for the boom? Gallows means to me attachments for the tent and the bimini. Of course ebb's gallows is as tall as he is (can't 'ave his feet dragging on the deck...) I'd LIKE the gallows AND/OR an A-FRAME of some sort in the back of the cockpit to grab on to. Aesthetics be damned. Or is there a better way? What is the better way?

My intent is to live on the boat, rather than endure once a month bouy bashing. ALL cruising live-aboards look like compacted jungle jims, especially the aft end - what alternatives does tiny 338 have? I want to keep her as clean and light as possible. But I have sinned, yea, yea, I have sinned!

Still, that ComPac 21 is very simple and tidy..
AND a Perfect Solution for the mainsheet on that boat.
Hunter does NOT come to mind when I look at THAT boat.
And the Eclipse, itself, looks like its heritage is closer to an actual sailboat than a gelcoat showboat nightmare with its traveler in the air!

SO, IF
Mike agrees to a boom gallows than why not a gollows frame that is braced into an A-frame and made out of smaller pipe? And then, why not put the traveler up there and run the sheet to the front of the cockpit from the mast? Anything BETTER then that?

[eric (deceased)]

a mid evil device used in barbaric death sentences.I remeber a simple clip hanging(no pun) from a back stay.gets caught in the boom lift at the worst time

[tha3rdman]

I really like the thought of having the main on the cabin top, no more sheet wrapped around the tiller yolk. As for the traveler, I think I will forgo that for the same reason as ebb, a tenth of a knot really doesnt appeal to me unless theres a travler benifit I'm missing.

Ebb, as of current, 97 has had the original cleet removed and a double block mounted there and a double on the boom, both have beckets though i used one becket as a sheeve, (schafer beckets are heavy and roll especially the 705 series). Where the old blocks on the quarter s where I put a harken cam cleet on each.

[ebb]

Evidently one of the boats in the Volvo race ING Brunel has no traveler.

ING Brunel's Mainsheet - Boat Design Forums [google]
boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10208

And there is an essay by Powlas from Good Old Boat:

Good Old Boat: Vang/Preventer - A Fast, Efficient Safety Device by... [google]
www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/vangprevent.htm

that I think uses two preventers instead of a traveler for main control along with a good explanation of why we have to have a bloody traveler, anyway.


[Want to further discussion on this subject!]

[eric (deceased)]

like I said before.you can have a 2000 dollar bhote with 25,000 dollars in upgrades and gear.you still got a bhote thats 25 feet 7 inches long.a darn goodn' at that so k.i.s.s.In fact it is my opinion that the only need for winches on an ariel is for the main and jib halyards.a working jib of this size (in my opinion) needs only jamcleats.(anna' paira' work gloves.) HEAVE HO YEE SCURVY KNAVES!!!! an'ifyaz' put up a big foresail it better not be so windy to where ya needa' winch.in all my miles I barely put up a genny EVER..nuttinz' more useful than a good set of workin'jibs--an' with reef points at that.it aint all funnan' games I tellya---when ya feel that mast begin to pump the hull---at 3am---getyerz' asses up thar' an' shorten sail NOW .DONT BOTHER TO HEAD UP-!!!!--THIS IS THE REAL WORLD-!!!!(its ok to let it luff alittle)--ever reef the main from the lee side??? while still under way???at 3am??? I dont even slow down fer a g-d damm fish on!!!

[tha3rdman]

So I'm confused, is the 2 sets of blocks on either side of that diagram just Preventer/vang or are they used for sheets also?

[ebb]

OK, I'm for simplicity, also.
The point of the traveler is to ease the main to leeward when the wind gets up without having to loosen the mainsheet.
Without a traveler: when the wind strengthens the main is unsheeted allowing the boom to rise and move to leeward which affects the sail shape by putting more curve in the leech.
A vang can be used to hold the boom down with or without a traveler. But it is more dangerous to use a vang without the traveler because huge loads could develop at the midboom point that might fold the boom unintentionally.
Modern hi-tech roller-bearing travelers on T-track can be moved easily under load with control lines in blocks - allowing sailtrim (moving the boom to leeward) without undoing the mainsheet.
Can it be argued that this is a safety feature?

The best place for a traveler (without arguement) in terms of sail-shape control is at the aft end of the cockpit. Because that is where the aft end of the boom is. In terms of fathoms of frikkin line on the cockpit floor and wrapped around the tiller it's a bit crackers.

It could be argued that a boom-high traveler frame that leads the mainsheet forward to the mast and back to the cabin top...And would arrange the traveler block controls on the uprights of the frame elliminating most of the tangle under foot...is an improvement.

Perhaps just too darn mo-dern for SOME traditionalists. At some point in the last 40 year we decided after-market stern pushpits were ok to have. Hunter pipe aesthetic is a problem. Is there a compromise?

Another point is just HOW important IS a traveler for satisfying control of the main on an A/C? Could sail with a loosened vang and just tighten it when needed. Or do I mean vicerversa? And remember to loosen it each time tacking! Maybe that's a reason for rigging double vangs???? (Not that I Got It, yet :confused: )

The traveler seems to only do one thing, right? Ease the main to leeward without moving the mainsheet - what else is the traveler used for?

IS a traveler worth all the fuss?
(this is NOT a rhetorical question!)
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
later EDIT. Travelers belong to the racers where tweeking is the game. Separate tackles to the end of the boom from the quarters is an easy
solution for the cruiser. The tackles do not share a single block on the boom. Each is separate. This will allow more control of the boom by the option of hauling and/or releasing the sheet on either the weather or lee side.... acting somewhat like the travelor....but with more line underfoot!

[tha3rdman]

Ebb and all,

Assuming that an individual had permission from the one with the money, to do such a hunter like thing, what would you use? I'm thinking 1" o.d. with .125, asumming thats heavy enough what grade SS would be recommended I realize 316 is better in a chloride enviroment (ie NaCl) but 304 is stronger. Also what is the real difference between tubing and pipe, one yard quoted me 18.95/ft fot 1" od .125 wall, where another yard quoted me pipe at 5/ft for 304 and 8/ft for 316.

And anyone have a TIG i could borrow? :) I cant stick to save my life.

[Mike Goodwin]

Pipe is stronger than tubing and heavier .