Spreader Socket Broken

[Bogle]

I cannot find the newsletter with the drawing of this casting. Can someone please fax it to me at (718) 797-1983?

RigRite has several different ones that may fit/have been used by Pearson. My commander hull is #92. If someone that has confirmed bolt hole dimensions on a boat close to mine and would be kind enough to let me know, I would appreciate it.

(It seems the yard moved La Saladita, Commander #92, and upon raising her with the crane she leaned forward and the port spreader socket disentegrated. Foreman said there was nothing that hit it, but I wonder. There was a lot of freezing and thawing this winter, and these castings are 38 years old. Time to replace both sockets, and maybe all the standing rigging.

At least I will have to have the mast down and take the stays to a rigger for a close inspection.

So, I followed a prior thread and found that RigRite carries these. Any other ideas? I have not located my Winter 2002 newsletter which is supposed to have a drawing of this casting, but I'll keep looking.
Regards to all,
David)

[marymandara]

a number of tritons have lost spreader bases recently, it seems that the castings just sort of give it up eventually. james baldwin just lost one on a triton he was delivering for someone else, i understand.

probably best to replace these. tips, too...although i've never heard of it happening yet, i have seen a lot of chalky corrosion on old aluminum tips where the shrouds contact, and worry what would happen if the tip turned to cookie crumbs. losing the tip, base or tube hard on the wind in 20 kt. or better does not appeal to me as the results cannot be expected to differ from parting a capshroud.

FWIW, i'm replacing the bases, tubes and tips on our triton, and am looking into machining the bases and tips from billet stock.

best,
dave
(maybe with my using m's login, i'll just sign
Dude Looks Like A Lady)

[Bogle]

Thanks again, to Bill who faxed me the diagram. I copied the dimensions in a larger faxable size and shot it over to RigRite. They have quoted me and I have ordered one. I thought about getting two, but at $180 ea, I thought I would have a good look at the remaining one and only if it shows cracks would I replace it.

This will give me a chance to have the mast down and take the rigging over to a local rigger for a complementary inspection. At least he offered me that a few years ago. So much for early-season launching.

[glissando]

$180 each! Ouch.

I replaced the two spreader bases on my Triton this year and paid $106 for both pieces. My old ones had hairline cracks that were only visible after close inspection.

The new ones were stock items from somewhere; I ordered them through a rigger I have used in the past. It's amazing how much tighter the spreaders fit in the new bases than the old.

Tim
Triton 381

[Bogle]

Well, Tim, I would love to know the name of the rigger so we could find out where he got them. I may need another one, but I will not know until I take a closer look at it.

Tim, do you know if these are identical for the Tritons and Ariel/Commanders? I know from the Manual drawing of the mast that it, at least, is the same extrusion for both rigs. If the spreaders were the same, I would think they would use the same. RigRite wanted a drawing with bolt holes dimensioned, etc., as if there were several that it might be...

These are not in stock anymore at RigRite. Fabrication may be what I am up against.

[dasein668]

I also got two new sockets at the same time as Tim. (I remembered them as being 35 each... but I haven't looked at the bill recently) Anyway, our rigger was Maloney Marine Rigging out of West Southport, Maine:

Maloney Marine Riggine, Inc
Boothbay Region Boatyard
PO Box 364
West Southport, ME 04576
207-633-6788

As I recall, when he went searching for the bases he found them in Massachusettes. They weren't actually in stock, as I recall, but the company had the molds to cast new ones.

Good luck!

And as Dave said: everyone should inspect your castings very carefully next time the rig is down. 40 years is a long time for a cheap aluminum casting! I suspect many boats are past the useful life expectancy on these parts.

[glissando]

The spreader bases were $49.40 each, plus tax and shipping for a total of $106.99 delivered. This was for the raw casting with no holes drilled. Drilling the holes to match is easy.

It's a 3" x 6" spreader base. Sorry--I don't recall the diameter of the spreader tube...perhaps 1-1/4"? Don't quote me.

Give Jay Maloney a call at the number above in Nathan's email.

Tim

[Bogle]

Thanks to both of you. I have contacted Jay Maloney and requested a quote. I like your idea of drilling the holes myself. Maybe I'll order another one from them if they get these cheaper.

I have not measured my mast holes. I ordered based on the diagram from our fellow Ariel/Commander owner's newsletter.

Rig Rite has shipped my order already. Hope it fits.

Thanks again. David - commander #92, La Saladita

[Bogle]

So, the other source for these (that Jay Maloney uses) is D and R Marine. I have ordered two (2) from Rudy over there. Jay did not really need to broker this deal, so he was kind enough to just give me his source. He has had a hard time working with RigRite, and since their price is so high, I wonder if I will ever try again.

They do have some gooseneck parts that I need, but that will be another thread.

[mrgnstrn]

since someone else obviously has replaced these buggers recently, i have questions for you:

how are these mounted to the mast?
are the bolts tapped and screwed directly into the mast (each spreader base mounted indepently)?
or is there a through bolt, and the port and starboard are bolted to each other through the mast (clamped on each side basically)?

many thanks,

[dasein668]

Mine were (and the new ones are) drilled and tapped. Which, apparently, was stronger than the casting, fwiw...

[Bogle]

Spreader bases are through bolted with no bushings inside the mast. Original upper bolt was a 1/2" x 4.5" and the lower bolt was 1/2" x 5". Lower bolt also holds the lower shroud tangs.

I found that with the new cast bases, which are slightly thicker, that I needed a longer bolt for the lower, so I used 5.5" length for that. Another interesting thing about the existing lower bolt on #92 was that it was slightly bent!

[mrgnstrn]

so one is through bolted and one is tapped into the mast....
darn, i was hoping to avoid a trip over there just to find out.

[dasein668]

Ok, ok... it was late, there was a screaming baby in the background... my brains had apparently turned to cottage cheese. Fear not. My bases are, indeed, through bolted.

[commanderpete]

My spreader bracket had been giving me some concern for a while now. You might be able to see the thin vertical crack above the bolt hole.

I felt a bit less nervous after seeing that two of our boats had their spreaders banged off during hurricanes without losing the rig.

[commanderpete]

Still, those brackets needed changing.

Just got them in from Rudy at D & R. They're $58 each now.

Nicely rounded on the bottom and the brackets are also properly angled upwards. Seem to be a bit heavier than the originals too.

[Mike Goodwin]

Robert LeMasters needs a pair for commander 105 , where did you get them?

[commanderpete]

http://www.drmarine.com/default.asp

The website is pretty worthless, but give Rudy a call.

[Robert Lemasters]

I ordered two spreader bases from D&R, real nice people. Same day shipping, $58 per and $7.50 shipping, better deal then having them machined here.

[Gerry Walsh]

Mine broke in storage with weight of NY snow.Better keep it in the Carribean for the winter! Replace with the jay unit and get over it .Better here than blowing one out in the med !By the way,I move Ariels to warm locations real cheap .Thanks Gerry

[Mike Goodwin]

I was just over at Robert Lemasters' house checking out his new spreader sockets . Good deal , nice hardware and prompt delivery .

http://www.drmarine.com/default.asp

[JurisG]

Just wanted to add something to this - I saw Rudy at D&R for new sockets. They aren't drilled out because they fit more than just Ariels, so you need to be prepared to do that part yourself. I ended up having to "slot" the bolt holes in one of the new sockets to get it to fit correctly, with a 9/16" drill bit. This was my fault for copying the bolt pattern on my only remaining good socket, rather than measuring off the holes in the mast. The other thing is that my spreaders didn't fit in the new sockets. Maybe sloppy casting or an old mold or something, but either way - make sure to measure the OD of your spreaders and ask Rudy to measure the ID of the sockets before he sends them. Maybe you can have him do the cleanup before purchase. Or you can do what I did - put your spreaders on a belt sander with coarse sandpaper and grind those babies down. There seemed to be a lot of material left on the spreaders when I was finished, so I'm not worried about the integrity of the part. I also needed to use a dremel tool with a sander drum attachment to clean up the flat spots and imperfections inside the spreader socket. Everything is back together now though, and she sails great! When you put it back together, make sure the spreaders are angled slightly upward (pointing towards the top of the mast). If you put them on in reverse, they will point downward.

[ebb]

Here we are a number of years later with ongoing problems. Here's some of my opinion on the subject:
On another thread you'll find how one owner made up stainless steel sockets and added a compression tube to his upgrade:
In the Gallery: Rico's 'Commander 155 Mephisto Cat' pg5.
A338, litlgull, has airfoils which is a completely different system.

The original sockets on A338 were mounted to the mast with some very hard setting goop. When they came off discovered that the base of the socket casting had not been radiused to the mast curve and that was why the black bondo was used. However the spreaders sat very well in the sockets. There was no wear & no cracks in the castings - because, imco, the BASES hadn't moved in the decades they were on the mast.

When you think of it, the double or maybe triple duty those aluminum fittings do halfway up the mast is extraordinary. The mast, it could be said, constantly moves in its rigging - and would impact the spreader sockets - even in the marina.
The two humungous 1/2" bolts are mounted thru the centerline of the fitting.
This would mean that if the fitting is left flat it will probably rocker on the mast.
The hard black bondo the mast sockets were smeared on with, did a good job providing a solid base for the tube spreaders.
However most owners will probably use tube rubber to fill the spaces between the bases and the mast.
Imco that will lead to the wear reported on this thread. I believe cast aluminum fittings crack because they MOVE on the mast, not because they are cast and supposedly have a crystaline structure.


When the mast is horizontal you can make little pads for the spreader bases.
Not only are cast spreader bases handed (the cups indeed must incline UP) but they also should be mounted at 90 degrees to the mast centerline.

The center of the mast where we want the spreaders is not a symetrical curve.
So with a piece of mylar taped to the side of the mast, you can cast a couple pads in epoxy, chopped strand glass and cabosil. You have to double-side carpet tape some dams on top of the mylar on either side of the glop - that you place pretty exactly where you want the spreaders to be along the center of the mast. The mast center is not the center of the curve of the mast section. Use a seranwrapped piece of flat stock to press flat your goop cookie and press it as thin as you want, maybe 3/16" at the thinest. This flat should be parallel to the center of the mast, and therfore parallel to the flat of the pad on the opposite side.
After epoxy is set, cut to fit. If you've made the cookie wide enough, you can move it sideways a little on the mast - and get it exactly in the center. Then trim it to fit the base. It will almost be disappeared with the base bolted in place.
If you double the length of the mold form, you'll be making an exact duplicate pad when you cut the cookie in half and end for end the second piece.

Imco this is the easiest way to get an absolutely stable socket for the spreaders AND the lowers. Mast winch pads can be customed the same way.


Instead of pads
If you have access to a spindle sander you can sand/grind a cove into the cast aluminum base that matches the curve of the mast. Reverse the base when shaping, for left and right side.
You can find spindles that use sanding sleeves on the drill press. (Harbor Freight?)
If you have a vise to hold the sockets you might also try sculpting with the hand drill version of spindle sanders. The relatively narrow section of the socket fitting means the curve you are attempting to grind is relatively shallow. And you can grind and try-fit the bases on the mast until you get it just right - aluminum is pretty hard stuff to evacuate with a sanding sleeve. The easiest and most controled shaping is probably done with a table top oscillating spindle sander - because you just hold the fitting and press it against the dancing sanding sleeve. Really control the shaping.

Imco the bolts alone won't stablize the sockets, you need a pad, or a fitted base.
Also imco the base plates or the radiused sockets must be barrier mounted to the mast.
Use 20mil black pipewrap AND TefGel or MareLube 45 to isolate the fitting from the mast. Tape isolates, teflon gel keeps water out.
Maybe aluminum against aluminum is OK, but if the boat is in salt you certainly have some sort of galvanics in the crevis between two alloys. ALL IMCO.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
Locate & Drill Jig - & Pad making
I found all kinds of Pearson & P.O. "eyeball" mistakes on A338's mast. Made up a 3/4" four side plywood box (actually a square collar) about 6" long that is a SNUG fit on the mast. If you have the sail track on the mast you mark the center of the track onto the box, which also is the center of the piece of plywood there. Imobilize that spot by temporarily blue taping the box to the mast.
Square the collar to the mast with a rafter square. The center of the front piece of ply of your box is the center of the front curve of the mast. The box then shows where the 'center line' of the mast is. Mark the spar at the center. Line up the front and track centers and the long side of the box is then horizontal to the imaginary front-to-back centerline.
The collar can show perfect 90 degree locations on opposite sides of the mast. predrill the 1/2" holes by stacking the ply pieces and drilling both thru on the drill press. Then assemble the collar. Use the predrilled holes to perfectly locate & drill into the mast.

Found that the Pearson factory originally janked the bolt holes for A338's socket bases, one spreader base 1/2" lower then the other and off center by 1/4", as well. They could have used a colar jig to get it right!
Sliding a taped or screwed together collar near your cookie dough will give you an eyeball sightline for the flat you want when pressing your flattener into the wet glop of the cookie base form you've taped on the mast.
Leave the seranwrapped flattener on your cookie until it sets. Make the flattener flat with mast too. Hope the hell this makes sense !
NAMASTE:D