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Bill
12-10-2001, 07:41 PM
Good Old Boat has placed the Sandifer delamination repair artical on its Web site at read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

Robin
12-17-2001, 07:00 PM
Bill,
thanks for posting that Good Old Boat article, I'm in the process of thinking out how to tackle my decks on the side of the cabin. I tried the method where you drill holes, but it looks like I didn't quite get all of it as I'm getting spongy areas again. So I'm considering cutting out a whole panel. What I'm concerned about is running into areas of rotten core alternating with good, still laminated core. Which makes it impossible to get a panel of fiberglass off cleanly. Any suggestions?
Robin

Bill
12-17-2001, 07:48 PM
Sorry, but I have no idea. Two suggestions, however. First, ask a professional. Most yard people are very helpful. Second, wait and maybe someone will reply to your post. :)

Dave
12-19-2001, 06:38 AM
Robin,
I have repaired soggy core on my Ariel, including removing six feet of the outer skin on the port side deck, replacing the core, and and reattaching the skin. Of course, it requires cosmetic glass work and repainting the whole deck including determining how you will restore the non-skid (I used glass beads).
I'm happy to tell you how I did it, and have a few pictures, if you're interested.
--Dave Gillespie

Brent
12-19-2001, 06:07 PM
Dave,

Please--tell us about how you repaired the core on your Ariel and post the pictures. I'll be tackling this job in the Spring and could use the info.

Thanks in advance,

tcoolidge
12-23-2001, 08:53 PM
Hi
I had to redo my port deck along the cabin too- leaks from the stanchion base and from the jib block tracl pretty much turned to core to mush. I cut away the delaminated deck and cleaned out the debris until I got to sound wood that was still adhered to the glass, then dried it out as best I could (not an easy undertaking in Seattle in winter) then cut endgrain fir blocks to fill the core, embedded them in epoxy and glassed over it all again then painted it.Turned out surprisingly well, considering. I also glassed in a much more substantial backing plate for the stanchion base so the load is much better supported. There are any number of sources for info on how to fiberglass and it's really pretty easy. It also has the benefit of being easily removed with just some grinding if you don't like the result and want to try again. It's been three years since I did mine and I haven't had any problems- no leaks, no flex, no cracks so I'm pretty happy.
Tom

Theis
12-26-2001, 09:05 AM
I do have an idea for you that worked well for me

I had one deck area alongside the starboard windows that was a total disaster. The area was the width of the deck and about a foot to 18" long (although for this procedure the size shouldn't make much difference).

I used a Dremel tool with a small router type bit (1/8"as I recall). Marking with a pencil the path for the cutout, I cut out the section of the deck fiberglass over and beyond the area known to have the rotten balsa. I wanted to preserve that deck piece because it has the tread and it would be used again. The cut was at an angle to the extent possible so that the deck piece, when replaced, would not fall through the hole, i.e. cut so that the perimeter of the deck cutout with the tread pattern was larger than the underside.

Then, using varioius chisels and stuff, I cleaned out all the rotten balsa (I think). When the wood started coming out dry and relatively light colored, I assumed that was enough.

Then I filled in the void, but not quite to the deck underside level, with glass mat and resin which in addition to being a filler for the void, also sealed the remaining balsa at the edges. When that had cured, I placed the deck piece cut out over the hole. In places where the cured glass was above the bottom of the deck level, it had to be ground or sanded down with the Dremel tool grinder or 80 grit sandpaper so that the deck piece would fit level with the deck.

I then covered the deck area around the hole with stuff you can get from West that keeps glass from sticking, and did the same with the tread side deck cutout piece. The hole was then filled with resin and a layer of glass and the deck piece cutout placed over the cutout. Wax paper was then put over the entire repair area, which was then covered by a board with heavy weights to force the deckpiece cutout to be flush with the remainder of the deck (The wax paper prevented the board and the weights from sticking to the deck piece cutout and the deck).

When done and cured, the deck and the cutout were level, the deck non-skid pattern was undisturbed except for the 1/8" bead around the cutout. When repainted, the cutout does not even show. You really have to look very close to realize that there was extensive work done on the deck.

On another section (under the mast) I had tried drilling holes and inserting Git Rot. That had turned into a total, time consuming disaster. I think I did fill the void, but the deck and deck pattern were so botched up, that it is easy to tell that they are different

Bob G
05-16-2002, 02:50 PM
I need to repair some rotten core on the foredeck portside (about 2.5 ft by on 1 foot) and side deck on the starboard side (almost the same size). Also some slight delamination on the starboard side deck. If I remove some skin, where does one get the balsa or is there better wood to use? Does it come in various thicknesses? Can you just use some type of epoxy filler. I have read the previous ideas and it helps. Thanks in advance. Bob

ebb
05-16-2002, 07:04 PM
Baltec from www.defender.com
800/628-8225

Janice Collins
05-17-2002, 04:03 AM
Why would anyone want to replace that balsa core that turns to
mush with more of the same????. Masochists at heart??? I need to do something to a spongy area on the foredeck too, in fact all Ariel owners seem to have to do the same,

What was the advantage if any, to the balsa core ? I see it as a big PIA!!!

Dave
05-17-2002, 06:59 AM
I'm in the process of rebeding all the deck hardware on Brigid: drilling oversize holes, cutting out core material from the sides of the holes with a sharpened allen wrench on the drill, and refilling the holes and undercuts with thickened epoxy. When I redrill for the hardware, it will be through epoxy and any leaks shouldn't reach the core.
I'm going to all this trouble because I've removed too much balsa mush from several small and large deck and cabin top repairs. Previous owners just didn't maintain the hardware fittings.
I can understand balsa's appeal to the builders: cheap, light, oddly strong, and when grain is placed vertically, relatively resistant to water penetration. But over time, any delamination in the presence of leaks, and the stuff completely fails.
My larger repairs have been with marine plywood presealed with epoxy, the smaller repairs have been with thickened resin.
I'll avoid balsa altogether.
--Dave

Bob G
05-17-2002, 09:40 AM
Was the space(thickness) of the deck filled with the balsa core fairly uniform, or did it require various thicknesses of whatever wood filler was used. I haven't skinned her yet, and am trying to do a liitle planning ahead. I agree, I am tending to steer away from balsa, and am looking at other wood and/or just glassing it or filling with some epoxy filler. Anybody see any problems with either method?

Theis
05-17-2002, 10:35 AM
I would suggest using glass and resin after you have cut out as much of the bad stuff as you can reach through the deck cut. The glass resin penetrates and seals the core where you could not reach. With a resin paste, you may not get this sealing action and in fact may leave hollows. When I did mine, I used fiberglass mat, not the wovoen glass cloth, just to bulk up the gap (alongside the starboard aft window). Then I covered it with the piece I had cut out of the deck and leveled it so that, when cured, the deck would again appear intact. I am assuming that the resin will not run straight through into the cabin, in which case you need tape and a piece of plastic to block the leak.

Dave
05-18-2002, 07:38 AM
Bob,
The balsa core is a consistent thickness throughout -- except at the edges, i.e. near the caprail. I agree with the use of unthickened epoxy as the first step; it tends to run into the spaces where the deck may have delaminated (delam can exist even if the core is dry -- these are production boats).
Epoxy thickened with filler is great for sealing off the repair and when smeared into an undercut in the seam you've cut, strengthens the joint. Coring material (marine plywood, airex, balsa) weighs less, is less expensive, and is easier to install than a glass mat build up in my strictly amateur opinion.
--Dave

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 07:35 PM
Here is what I did with #45 last year;

the core was completely gone from the cockpit forward on the starboard side and the entire foredeck , the balsa was like tuna in the can .
the foam is called wescore , it is a foam filled honey comb .
After putting new core in , the old deck skin went back on then a layer on fresh glass over the whole repair.

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 07:37 PM
here are the photos;

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 07:38 PM
#45 deck

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 07:49 PM
The black is 5200 covering a split in the deck , it felt like a trampoline walking on the STBD side.

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 07:54 PM
Split in foredeck by cowlplate;

Mike Goodwin
05-18-2002, 08:01 PM
The hull had a few dings too!

glissando
05-19-2002, 05:36 AM
Another core material that is becoming more common is a polypropylene product called Nida Core.

www.nida-core.com

Several Triton owners have recently used this stuff. It seems to be a good product that creates a stiff deck. I have not used it, but would certainly consider it for the next project.

As with all core materials, though, only time will tell if it is truly the answer or not. One constant in the boating world is that there are few true "miracle" products. The ravages of marine life are tough on almost everything.

Tim

Mike Goodwin
05-19-2002, 07:19 AM
I've heard good things about Nida Core , I used WesCore because I had it left over from a paying job so the price was right .

Bob G
05-20-2002, 08:22 AM
OK. I am looking into various options for new core material, and how to obtain them. Hoping not to have to drive 70 miles(one way) just to measure for the thickness, do any of you recall the thickness of the material you used? Mike, it looked like that WesCore was one piece, obviously flexible enough to conform to the slight curve of the deck. I am looking at getting nidacore,but that may take a while. If using a plywood, can anyone tell me if it also goes in one piece, or in many smaller pieces? How small? other thoughts? Thanks again!

Mike Goodwin
05-20-2002, 03:03 PM
Ply would be my last choice with balsa coming before it , after all , in some well maintained boats the balsa has lasted 40 years now . The water travels faster through ply .

Go to ;

www.fgci.com

They sell all the cores and will ship anywhere.
Nida-Core comes in 13mm , 16mm & 20mm ;
price ranges from $45 to $58 for 28sf .

Mike Goodwin
05-20-2002, 03:08 PM
I used 9mm & 12mm and had to do some shaving with both .

Janice Collins
05-21-2002, 04:18 AM
Nida core is polypropylene. Wes core is what??

I need to do a small, God I hope small, repair under the port lifeline fitting. The foredeck there is too soft. The area is only about 1 foot by 8". of course I have niightmares that the mush is much more extensive, thus the reason for this procrastination, something I am very good at.

If I'm understanding all this, its ok to use epoxy/glass for a small repair but if it is large a core material should be used??

And, bear with me, this repair stuff is new, though I lived aboard for many years and sailed her for many years, I have to say I was spoiled, a real sea princess. Any thing difficult, and my honey did it. And by difficult, I mean if a tool was involved or anything that used 2-parts, solvents, etc.!!!!

Now, I'll see if I have the muster to do what all you are doing. In the meantime, I'm looking for a "Sven" too. But he's no where to be found. But I'm looking hard.
:cool:

commanderpete
01-08-2003, 04:52 AM
This site documents a recore job from underneath on a San Juan.


http://personal.monad.net/~catamount/Quasar/part1.html

Brendan Watson
02-02-2003, 08:28 PM
Regarding Core issues, I have replaced core from inside and out,small
areas and large. I have never been able to salvage a large enough piece
of inner or outer skin to be worth the bother of reinstalling. as for the best way to
tackle the job is to go right at it,work fast and with purpose.

With this in mind I feel that the best way to attack the core is from the outside. With
a forty year old balsa-cored boat water intrusion is an inevitable fact of life. To do this
kind of work, with the dust associated with it, inside a small boat is to large a price
to pay for some old, worn down, though original , no-skid texture.
I recommend determining the boundaries of the problem from the inside useing a 1/4"
drill bit and a 1" hole saw for a larger look. Locate the area on the out side by drilling holes through the deck.
Useing a battery powered circular saw make cuts about 1-2" apart over the entire effected
area. Save these strips as they make good epoxy stirrers. With a good heavy scraper, that looks
like a putty knife but with a thicker blade and handle, chisel out the strips with a hammer.
You can go wild, providing you don't damage the inner skin, in the big outdoors, with
gravity as your friend, without physical contortions. The outer skin that you will be rebuilding
will be thicker than the inside layer and therefore a little more expensive. But with the repair time
cut in better than half, due mainly to the working conditions, is negligable.
Now to get your deck pretty again after your core and skin are sanded smooth and fair,
basically a no brainer, paint your deck. Barrier coat can be used here as a high build primer.
It sticks well and forms a tough, waterproof, tie coat. Next you will think about paints.
I initially used single part urethane on my deck. I added sheen reducer and glass balls.
It came out looking good but wore over the five years I've had it.
When I recored my entire cockpit, I had to repaint. I used some left over barrier coat
which was really nice as a hi-build, sandable primer and then finish coated with three coats,
rolled, of Interlux, Inter-Deck. This paint goes on like a dream is already flat and has the grit
in it. The grit is very fine and very effective( see Practical Sailor recent issue). Once you paint,
its easy to go back in from the top again. Once you've done it, top repair, I think you will be
hard pressed to find a good reason to work inside again.

Cheers B.
Commander #215

Hull376
02-03-2003, 06:38 PM
I did a 2 1/2 foot by one foot triangle on the port foredeck of 376 yesterday afternoon. Was 75 degrees and sunny in Houston--this is our time of year to be outdoors. Anyway, I'll vote for doing the job from the outside. And I have to admit, I also "attacked it" and didn't dwell on the fact that I was sawing into my boat. A friend just did a patch on his J22 from inside, and he said it was awful. I think he has resin in his hair he is trying to pass off as no. 10 strength hair gel. After only doing this once, I thought the toughest part of the job was pulling free the part of the deck that was still dry and attached to the balsa core (about a 3 inch piece). I also used a small 3" battery operated circular saw, several batteries needed for the whole job. Used the 9mm core from GCI, and it was the exact thickness for the foredeck area. I put in an extra layer of cloth on the botton layer since there were a couple of spots that were pretty thin (haven't seen many places on my Ariel where you can find thin fiberglass!). Put the cut-out piece back on top after wetting out the core, and then held it down with a couple of bricks--- first taped off the edges of the cut deck piece and around the cut-out (forgot this step). Maybe its beginner's luck, but its flush. Will have to sand off the excess resin at the cut mark. Again, the hardest part of the whole surgical operation was getting the deck off of the dry core. Otherwise, it wasn't nearly as hard as I thought it would be, and I'm a fiberglass amature.

commanderpete
02-06-2003, 05:30 AM
Think how much money you folks saved by doing it yourself.

This guy paid over $8000 to have the work done on a Pearson Flyer. Doesn't even look like the job was that extensive.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/delling3/Wavelength/Core%20Repairs.htm

Sprite
08-22-2003, 08:37 AM
Has anyone had the experience of replacing the balsa core
with foam from both sides of the cabin forward to the very tip of
the bow. I m looking for information on what it costs on average
from a boatyard and doing it on one's own.


Sprite:)

Bill
08-22-2003, 09:24 AM
Click on the "search" button at the top of the page and enter "delamination." There have been a number of posts, but I'm not sure if they have discussed cost.

It appears to me that yard costs vary by geographic area, so you might want to contact a couple of local yards for estimates. The do-it-yourself costs are (obviously) the materials needed for the job. Your local chandlery may be able to give you a good estimate of the materials needed and their cost.

commanderpete
08-22-2003, 10:39 AM
Ahhh, the old tuna salad on toast.

I would expect the cost of a professional repair at a boatyard to exceed the value of the boat. I would get estimates, just so the misery of tackling this project is tempered by the knowledge of how much money you've saved.

In addition to the multiple threads on this site, there is gobs of material on the internet. The basic procedure is all the same.

One step by step description can be found on Tim's website

http://www.triton381.com/recore.html

Mike Goodwin
08-22-2003, 01:17 PM
I did it to #45, and if I did it for someone I'd say about $2500 to $3500 (depending on degree of finish) is what I would charge .

commanderpete
09-02-2003, 03:25 PM
I found one article I had saved on a core repair done by a boatyard on a Pearson Flyer.

Although the job didn't seem to involve that much square footage, the cost was $8000.

Click on the photos for them to show up.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/delling3/Wavelength/Core%20Repairs.htm

In this job, the deck core was repaired from underneath. I think it would be exceedingly difficult and uncomfortable to do it that way in the forepeak area.

Sprite
09-02-2003, 05:27 PM
Commander Pete,

Just looked at the link. The boatyard's price would probably be in
that vicinity. The work would be on top though. I have water stains on my portside on the inside and the core is completely gone. There is air and no balsa left. I talked with the boatyard
and they said they would have to professionally cut it to make
sure the pieces fell back into place but they said that I could save
money by removing the remains of the balsa myself. I am not
sure how much of the interior will have to be pulled out due to
lack of maintenance and water stains. I figure that it would probably be safer to eliminate the balsa on the starboard side as well. It has been hell anyway, I have removed deck hardware from the front and back most was original the previous owner used galvanized screws. When I was working near front taking off an anchor chock on the starboard side water came down on me, while using bolt cutters. The previous owner put the pipe for the anchor chain on the portside. To make matters worse he put the holes in the deck and did not seal the edges with epoxy or sealing the deck fittings with silicone or any decent bedding compound. So I m kinda thinking of taking the plunge for safety sake. As ugly as that sounds. Do you think that when I get through with this double mastectomy the boat will structurally be okay or better.


John

commanderpete
09-03-2003, 07:25 AM
Rotten balsa core is not so much a safety/structural issue. There's plenty of boats sailing around with mushy decks. Damage to the plywood inside where the chainplates attach would be a greater concern.

But, you can only tackle one job at a time. Although I haven't done a recore of this scale, I think that:

1) You have to rig up some type of shelter first.

2) Don't pussyfoot around with half-measures, Dremel tools, whimpy sanders, 80 grit, etc. The job will just take longer. Go after it with a vengence--circular saw, angle grinder, flat nail bar for the core removal, and similar heavy equiptment.

3) Cutting off the skin doesn't require professional assistance. Just set the depth of the circular saw so that you don't pierce the bottom skin.

4) You'll be painting on a new nonskid surface at the end. You'll also need to paint the surrounding white areas since they will get smeared with epoxy.

You will do a better job than the boatyard. You can't hurt the boat. Any mistakes can be either repaired with epoxy or ground down. In the end, the boat will be as good as new.

Sprite
09-05-2003, 08:48 AM
Commander Pete

I want to thank you for the moral support. The boat is in
inside storage due to it leaking plus I have taken out the windows. I also have water and electricity. I have taken out the chainplates and almost all the deck fittings. They look original. I just recently had the back chainplate made, doubling the thickness and adding two bolts.The side that definitely has to be replaced is leaking through the chainplates and had corroded the

Sprite
09-05-2003, 08:49 AM
bolts and ate away at a bronze bolt connected to a grounding wire for the mast on the portside the wire was not effected. Should the new chainplates be doubled in thickness as well.
Getting back to the deck, what should be the pattern for
cutting it in sections. When you cut it way what should be the
depth of the circular saw, is there any preparation that you
have to do after removing the balsa and what kinds of problems
should you be aware of on the lower skin where it has been
effected by water. The depth of foam what should I be looking
for in terms of thickness does it vary and what types of foam
vincell was recommended to me. I have not worked with epoxy
before what should be the mixture John

commanderpete
09-05-2003, 10:18 AM
Oh Boy. I haven't had to do a recore on my Commander. I've just helped out on a different model boat. So I'm not the right guy to give detailed advice (Like that ever stopped me before).

Mike had posted some explanation and photos around here sometime back.

I'll think about it some and get back to you.

In the meantime, here's Bill Sandifer's article on recoring his Ariel. He did it while the boat was in the water. Unbelievable.

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

Greg
09-05-2003, 06:31 PM
Okay...here's my first ever post. I am in the throes of resurrecting #105 and the next job is going to be the recore of the ENTIRE deck. Earlier repairs have either failed or are failing and will probably make the whole project harder, but with the encouragement I have gotten by reading this forum and the likes of Tim Lackey's site, I think the best way to go about it is to just dig in and do the best I can. I have removed all the deck hardware along with a good bit of paint...enough to convince me that the upper layer of the deck is probably not worth the effort to save. I would end up grinding off all of the non-skid anyway, so I intend to put down some core material (Nidacore or similar) and then glass over the whole shooting match, re-doing the non-skid when I finish. A lot of work, I know, but worth it in peace of mind and pride when it's all over and floating. I am really tired of sailing in my backyard.

Greg
09-05-2003, 06:34 PM
BTW when I tried to go after the soft spots in the cabin roof with the circular saw the other day, I got the shakes so bad I couldn't hold the saw...had to go inside and try to regain my composure. I think I can go on now.

ebb
09-05-2003, 11:28 PM
First off, let's hope Mike chimes in and you can ask him. specific questions.
I've done just a smidgeon on 338 digging bigger hatches in and replacing a chunk in way of the mast step on the roof. The obvious way is to attack thru the top. There have been others who have replaced their core from Inside.
My observation is that the inside layer of fiberglass is very thin, and if I was replacing the whole deck I would do it in small sections so as not to loose the camber in the deck. I might consider making templates at one foot stations back from the bow of the deck as it now exists
The top is at least 1/8" thick. varying to thicker where it turns a corner.
I also tore out a piece that was in good condition. It was a bear, literally delaminating the glass mat from the piece of deck where the old polyester had soaked into the endgrain of the balsa. Was really impressed. Because the plastic soaked into the balsa it makes scraping the balsa off the thin inner layer something you have to do really careful.

Also, on the cabin anyway, the balsa varies in thickness, like they had to do some sanding to get it to take the curves. The decks I guess are more predictable....
There isn't anything you can do to your boat that you can't fix with a good grade of epoxy. So layout some lines in the form of a grid, say, and set the carbide saw blade 1/4" on your 5 1/2" skilsaw and cut out a square. In an easy place. See if it prys up easy with your blue prybar.

Voila, you have begun. If you can't stand it, glue it back and sell the boat. No way. So check with Mike and Tim on their procedure. Find out where they started on the deck, how much they deconstructed at a time. and so forth. For instance, if I had to do it I might ask Mike if removing a one foot band of foredeck across from port to starboard and after cleaning it out reolacing it with baltec or Divinycell, whatever, then epoxying the deck back on is a good way to start. You'ld be likely to keep the camber that way. Then repeat with another section next to the new repair.

When you are into it you'll invent your own method and tell us about it!!!

(Be prepared, tho, if there is any good wood in there you'll have a hell of a time prying the deck off.):mad:

marymandara
09-06-2003, 10:55 AM
Go to the NTA site (www.tritonclass.org) and look at the "project gallery" pictures of Jeff Maher's Triton #30 recore project...take really special note of what he did with shoring up inside before cutting anything to maintain the curvature. Important detail! Jeff did same on all of the areas he worked.

I'm just in the process of cutting the skins off of Triton 397, and have found the skilsaw is not the best tool for the job. Maher used a cutoff disc in an angle grinder, I'm using a cutoff disc in a die grinder in similar fashion.

The voids under the edges get packed in with epoxy thickened with microfibers--not balloons--and before placing the new core it is wetted out and then a layer of the microfiber-thickened epoxy is troweled into the cavity as if one were doing stucco or laying tile. Important to have a few reilef holes so the excess material has somewhere to squeeze out.

James Baldwin did the 'lay neww glass' method on his Triton, ATOM, and sounds like he would never do it that way again...it does sound like an awful lot of work. By reusing the origianl skins you will save a great deal of time and expense, plus have a better guide for the finished deck contour. The skins go back down with the same treatment I described for the core and with a few relief holes. Again, taking a llok at the pics of Jeff's Triton, we can see the nicest way of getting even clamping pressure. if there are edges or corners sticking up. a few judiciously placed sheeetrock screws will do the trick. Make very sure they are square-drives and very sure you have waxed them to death with paste wax so they will come back out!

Never shy with opinion,
Dave

Mike Goodwin
09-06-2003, 05:53 PM
Hey , it's Uncle Mikey checking in,
I have done lots of core work on dozens of boats, Pearsons, Columbias, C&C's, Southern Cross, etc. and after many hours of the "Big Fun" I use a DeWalt industrial Dremel tool clone ( drywall cutout tool to an electrician ) , I use a bit for cutting ceramic tile , solid carbide .
If I were doing another Ariel foredeck, I would cut the whole thing out at once again ( never lost any camber ) I would stay with Wescore and save and reuse the old deck skin ( it still has the shape )
Just go around the edge of the deck with the cutter.
I use a pre-thickened 1:1 epoxy to bed the core, available from ;

www.fgci.com

Use Shurform tools to work the core down after it is glued in place. Grind the back of the old deck with a 36 grit disk o remove the ridges and gunk . Trowel on some more of the fgci epoxy using a notched (tile-setter's) tool and squish the old deck in place. Fill in the holes and gaps with the epoxy. Grind the whole deck with 36 or 40 grit and lay on some cloth set in epoxy or vinylester resin ( I prefer Vinylester ). Sand it , fill it fair it and sand again . Layout your non-skid pattern ( I like to use Interlux particles in polyurethane primer ), paint it on and finish as you please .

That is it in a nutshell , it is 10% brains and 99% grunt work ( you'll only use 1% of the alotted brain power )

Mike G

ebb
09-07-2003, 07:06 AM
Capt. Greg.
Looks like the Tritons have done the deck core every way possible.
And so have the Ariels. The real problems have to do with the choice of materials and the experience you have with epoxy. (The general and correct concensus is Not to use poleyester because it won't 'glue' new work to old.)

I would not use fir plywood as a core material - the quality is bad, it's full of voids and laminating skins or 1/4" stuff down would be even more of a problem with voids and potlife. APA plywood is junk, even marine grade.

I would support the fordeck with thin ply and battens inside using a bottle jack or two Very Gently, just snug, befor I cut into the deck up top. No force at all - one you cut you don't want the inside to be forced up in any way. 338, perhaps because it was late in the Ariel run, or late in the day, has a very thin inner layer of mat that I feel would be too flimsey to keep integrity if the whole foredeck was removed. Especially if you worry the surface smooth with grinding and sanding - or a knee.

Personally, I would do the foredeck completely. Then the sides. because of the weight of the coach roof. I think I'd want the front of the coach roof supported by the new composit deck. The strength of this type of costruction comes primarily from the skin. The deck composit is of primary importance in the integrity of the boat. I have argued in the past here that even the two main bulkheads do not support the deck structure. I would. Note down some measurements from the inside deck to the sole as a redundant check.

In case someone hasn't made this clear: I would juice the work with plain runny epoxy with a brush befor laying down the baltec or foam which you will probably spread with a thin coat of thickened epoxy.

If you feel you have to go with interior support befor you start, you might bend up some easily bent battens into the curve with a squirt of yellow glue between the layers and let it set. I haven't done this, but I think I would. Two or three of these temporary beams held up by a single two X four and a jack would support the aft part of the foredeck while you work the top. The front half of the deck with its factory piece of ply glassed in for the mooring cleat is probably not going to move, much.:D

Good luck! Take photos! Let us see your torture!:cool:

Greg
09-07-2003, 08:15 AM
Hearing all people have to say: here, the Triton Forum, the wife...I think I will go after the deck a piece at a time. I was getting myself a little overwhelmed by the prospect of the poor old sweetie out there in the yard with her innards showin'. Bad enough she doesn't have any paint on her topsides anymore. Scabby and ugly is the order of the day out there and it's getting depressing to look at.

I really need to keep costs down, bein' an old retired guy. Sometimes I get kinda lonely feelin' like I the only one who can't afford stuff. It's good to know there are others, especially here, to whom "expensive" can mean hundreds instead of thousands.

ebb
09-08-2003, 08:24 AM
Capt. Greg,
Do it with polyester, then. At least you have Don Casey in your corner. You might even do it with ply if you can soak the hell out of it as you lay it in. Punky ply, one could argue is perfect because the polyester will soak in good.
Remember (hope I'm not patronizing) epoxy sticks to polyester (after a suitable cure time) not the other way around. So you can start with the poly and fix things up with the expensive.

E h ! Go out and start cutting! I realy do believe a deckcore could be done with polyester. The core has to be compatible,

commanderpete
09-08-2003, 10:32 AM
Good stuff here.

I've got a question. When you cut out the deck, can you follow the outline of the nonskid? If you have to go wider, how much wider?

The core gets thinner towards the sides. How would you handle any mushy core beyond where you cut?

The link below is just an article I had come across on foam cores. Its too technical for me, but somebody might find it interesting.

http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core/index.htm

ebb
09-08-2003, 12:01 PM
C'pete,
Good questions!
It would indeed be good to know where the balsa peters out. If it is in the vacinity of the anti-slip pattern on the deck, seems that would be an excellent line to cut to. Will aid in hiding the join of old to new if the old anti-slip pattern is reused. Good idea. What happens to the balsa so close to the toe-rail? Maybe you'ld have to cut a little further in? Away from the toe?

I've been preparing the coachroof hatch for it's new Bomar. Required that the up flange be cut away and the hole made larger. You get to see at lot of sideview balsa core this way. As I mentioned earlier, the core varies in thickness around the square cutout, no doubt because ofthe compound curves in this wonderfully sculpted area.

Decided, that instead of drilling larger holes to be filled with epoxy as the anti-leak 'gasket' protection of the core for the multitude of fastenings needed for the hatch, decided I would evacuate the balsa in a 1 1/4" to 1 1/2" deep channel all round. Different thickness made it a challenge.
Used a 80 grit flexible cut off on the Makita (because it was thin, got hot and wasn't very efficient.)
A 4" 36 grit cloth-backed sanding disk on an arbor in the drill (because it is slower.)
Used the dremel tool with various burrs and bits (generally disappointing, but it got the corners emptied, and the dremel very hot.)
Used a 4" orange nylon string flapper wheel that scoured the inside surfaces of the upper and lower frp of tenacious wood. Didn't have to worry about removing the edge any. Don't believe that leaving a bit of wood in there on the inner surfaces of the frp would make any difference after filling.
Best was the sanding disk. The grit on the outer-edge did all the digging and was thin enuf to get in the norrows Being somewhat bendy gave some leeway in holding the tool. Didn't have to worry about the smooth side cutting something it shouldn't. That old frp is very hard stuff.

I think that might be a way to clear the balsa out of the cut at the toe rail when during a recore. You can reverse the disk and have that 'safe' side to depend on. Safer than a small sawblade, eg, because you can correct your working angle befor you've committed a lamentable desecration. There probably are other 'wheels' out there, like wire (they're either too flimsey or too aggressive) that maybe would work better.

For somebody planing to recore and reglue the deck back, it would be great to know eactly where the old core thins down at the rail. Make the job that much more FUN!

Some thought IMCO has to be given to what is the best method of joining the new deck to the C'hannel at the side. I admit I haven't studied the Recorer's ramificate on this important seam. Probably involve folding some wetted-out cloth or light x-mat into the groove with deliberate overlapping onto the core itself top and bottom. Divinycell foam can be carved down nearly to a knife edge with coarse sanding cloth.

[I would use baltec, by the way, because most of it is still pretty good on 338 after 40 yrs, and I will waterproof the deck as best I can with the most expensive coatings known in the civilized world. The best modern house paints are guaranteed for longer than most marriages last these days. That's good enough for me]

Greg
09-08-2003, 12:26 PM
Nothing anyone tells me is ever perceived as patronizing...I have never done any of this stuff before so each step is onto uncharted ground and I appreciate all the advice I get. I will use epoxy because it is what I am more familiar with and because it seems to be the concensus choice.

I started on the coach roof last night making small exploratory holes under where the handrails were. Wet, squishy balsa was the order of the evening. Wet and squishy, but still pretty well stuck to the lower skin. All in all, not as traumatic as I first imagined. I hardly got the shakes at all...thanks for the confidence builders!

marymandara
09-08-2003, 01:40 PM
My 2 cents' worth for the day...after spending yesterday working on the core job...

Definitely need to brace like mad. Lots of thin ply and bits of 2x4 and 1x2. Lots. Coachroof is especially critical...the best pics I've found of this is Jeff Maher's boat on the NTA site.

Jeff used a fish gaff sharpened to a chisel point to get out the balsa left in the cavity. I reworked the core in a Ranger 23 once, too...my advice, LEAVE NO BALSA ANYWHERE! If you leave it and it's OK today, if it's no good in 5 years you will be SOL for doing anything about it.

Conventional wisdom is to cut about 2-1/2" from the edge of things, and so far I would concur. To re-tab, Ebb has the idea just right, after it is all kicked off you grind a trough a couple inches wide and pretty much down to the point where it breaks thru at it's deepest (it's a dished trough, right?), then tab it with layeres of stitch mat.

Epoxy is definitely the stuff of choice...if nothing else, you want/need the working time. Use slow hardener!

Core Material is a topic of some debate, but the Triton guys who've used foam materials have for the most part been unhappy later...it doesn't work out well over time, it seems...James Baldwin has reported no problems, but he 'glassed new and heavy over the top, with much frustration and effort. Some use marine ply, some balsa, some Nida Core which is a PVC honeycomb material. I don't want wood back in there if I can help it, for obvious reasons. Ply is way heavy, and the deck weight is fairly high up...I like stability and performance. Balsa is very spendy anymore, and I don't want it anyhow. I chose to use the Nida because guys have had excellent results, and the material was cheap at less than 60.00 a sheet. You can do an entire Triton on 3 sheets! It does, however, soak up resin like nobody's business...figure 5 to 7 GALLONS, plus hardener, on the Triton job. The cost in the end is a bit higher than balsa, and the weight a bit less than ply. Jeff's advice was to wait SEVERAL DAYS before removing the clamping weights (bricks) and inner bracing, and that the decks don't go full stiff for about a week...but that when finished it is STIFF! My kinda deal.

If you haven't already, check out also Tim Lackey's excellent website at www.triton381.com to see his recore job and detailed commentary from his working over of Triton 381, GLISSANDO. Tim used ply, and a bit different approach to a couple elements of the job, but most of it is analagous to any material you might choose. Probably the best "how-to" of a recore I've seen on the web.

Forget the nonskid...you're going way farther than saving that. Your water channels will be (re)created/defined when you lay on your new nonskid. This is not a job that leaves just small scars.
On my Ranger, I used these granules that System 3 sold in a quart can...about 6 cans' worth. Punched holes in the lid to make a shaker, masked my outlines, rolled out a thin coat of resin, and shook on until you couldn't see deck. Vacuumed off the next day, sidfted/filtered the excess for reuse, went again at next area, etc. Once it was painted it looked like some kind of a factory job...but it was a lot of work. Triton 397 gets an easier treatment that I learned from my buddy...mix up a bunch of balloons into the resin, trowel it on with a spreader as evenly as you can, and as it starts to go off pull up a texture with a wall texture paint roller. Makes for a very aggressive nonskid that looks pretty good under paint. Falling on it might really suck, but it is not uncomfortable to sit on. Looks more fishboat than yacht, but I think of old Pearsons as a sort of industrial chic anyway...sort of a cross between traditional wood boat and early-50's Grumman aircraft industrial. Just my aesthetic. Also easy and cheap!

Last thought---tools. Most important tool I am using is a DA sander with a 6 inch pad. Jobs like this are what air tools are made for...don't kid yourself. I've got a couple real nice 5-inch electric random orbit sanders and they don't begin to do what a proper DA does. Spend the $$$ and get a real, professional tool...China's finest don't make it for this one. You need LOTS of air to run one of these...over 10 CFM. Without air tools, I'd have no hope of ever finishing this job in my lifetime<G>! You can knock off ALL of the old nonskid that you need to in about an hour with 60 grit, and it will be nicely done! When most of it is gone, just evenly feather the edges down into the old white areas. Slightly increased crown on deck, and smooth. Remember not to go too nuts, as you'll have plenty of sanding/grinding and fairing to do after the skins are back down and it's a lot easier to have the meat left on the 'glass and fair by cutting down on it as much as possible to minimize filling, than to fill like mad forever and ever in order to have something to cut down.

It feels real good when you get that first skin off!

Dave

ebb
09-08-2003, 03:53 PM
Capt. Greg,
Seems like you have a real job just getting all the info (or 'opinions' as someone once said) into some kind of plan.
When you open up the coachroof let us know where the balsa starts thining, ok? Over the windows, and the hatch logs for that matter. If you can, post photos! It all looks professional if you vacuum first!

Shoot first, pay the consequences later. There is always a way out of any problem, you may not have forseen it, but that makes it interesting!

If you don't feel like you have the bucks to cop out to technologic hype(viz e poxy) then by all means put another method together. There NEEDS to be a cheaper fix than this corporate ripoff that epoxy is.

And look at it another way: you don't have to make your upgrade last 40 years, so use pinewood strips if you want, and roofing tar. And polyester is just fine for this application because its almost all new work - if you have to cover it with a layer of fiberglass, so what? You grind and sand til it looks good - then you sand and paint until it's sm o o o th as a baby's bottom. The spirit of your boat will show you the way, it don't lie. Really.

If you are anywhere near my age you already know it doesn't matter. Nothing matters.
Just being with this beautyful boat means you won't make any mistakes. Just little ones. And you will be forgiven for anything you ever did when you put your baby back in the water!!!

Gee, sounds like religeon. Better git out there befor they pass the plate.


[Greg, I must add here that I have NOT used polyester for the recore. That IS merely opinion. Second, the epoxy I use is very expensive but IMCO a much safer material than polyester with its styrene content and the acetone you'ld probably use in conjunction: BAD mothers. 100% solids epoxy is low odor, and extremely easy to use with normal precautions - it makes you an expert. Alcohol for clean up, or white vinegar. The only unknown with epoxy is its set up time, you have to sweat that part, but you know that if you've got the proportions correct and it sets up, you can grind away any mistake and just do it over. The next epoxy will bond just fine.]

Tony G
09-08-2003, 07:25 PM
Greg
Boy, I'm gettin all excited just thinking about the recore job ahead of you. 'Don't know how far Appleton is from here but I'm ready to pack a lunch and head out! Form the limited probing I've done and the few(but large)holes 113 has in her decks it seems that the bulk of the coring goes up to within an inch or 1 1/4" from the botton of the toe rail. That's where I'd cut. Seems no matter where you start everybody agrees that the digging and scraping doesn't come easy. Dave is right, brace her up on the inside and I'd use construction site refuse because you won't really need anything longer than 3' and who cares if the 2 by 4 is twisted,warped or straight. It'll really stink because I know how nice it is to just go below to sit and take it all in :p And yes, Tim's site gives a real good 'how to' or 'how I did' lesson in recoring. I've bought several books and in essence it all comes back to what Tim has on his site for free(but now I know).
Here's a hole in 113's side deck about even with the middle of the aft main cabin port. The white sealant is now gone and the core was pretty much directly behind it in this photo. Hope this helps. Tony G

ebb
09-09-2003, 10:11 AM
What a strange hole!
Must have been for a flower pot.

ebb
09-10-2003, 07:05 AM
Good stuff Dave and Tony,
Looking at that hole at the toe rail.....We're not seeing any old balsa core right? So let's say you got solid 1 1/2" plus in from the toe rail. I'ld want to make the cut thru the top then further in than where the original factory molded antislip stops. If you can't make the joint by poking glass into a groove or excavated channel in the composit then your locking seam has to be the dished out stripe on the top spanning old and new that you fill with glass cloth and/or mat. Of course this is done after the new deck is on and hard. Minimum width 4" if done with epoxy. If the inside has been prepped, I would add at least one 4" strip of heavy X-matt inside under the join. IMCO.

I know that if I ended up with a checkerboard of original deck pasted back onto the new core, even if I used epoxy thruout, I would add a layer or two of one piece glass from toerail to toerail over the whole deck. Light stuff, just to make sure that I had skin integrity in the reconstructed composit.

[There is another concern here (Mike and I posted on this, way in the past) and there is so much on this subject that this may be very redundant:

You read experts who caution not to glass over gell coat. I've done a lot of epoxy filling below the waterline that has been faired on to (well-grinded) gelcoat. It was pointed out that any mold-release or wax was now gone after 40 years. Not having done it, it must be nearly impossible to grind all the gellcoat and molded tred off the deck. It is the gellcoat on the boat that stress cracks and crumbles in some instances. So the question is: how much do you have to remove to ensure that the new work is not going to peel in the future? I'm inclined to believe that if you grind down to the translucent green and the white stuff left seems to be bonded to the laminate that it is ok to consider this a bondable surface.
What is the consensus on this?]

Sprite
09-10-2003, 10:15 AM
Mike,

I have the mushy stuff on the portside on the walkway to the
side of the cabin. I don't like the starboard walkway or the front a
head of the cabin. It seems to be leaking through the chainplates
and the bureau and wall seem to have water damage and I will probably be replacing all of it just to play it safe. I haven't
really seen anything with the cabin roof is it better to nail
it anyway, or forget it ? What should I be looking for in the interior skin in the water damaged area is it fiberglass or
plywood should it be replaced and with what material.


John

P.S. The anchor chain pipe fitting I am moving to a more forward position on the starboard side but I have the old hole and it's
four inche's by 21/2 inches. What should be the procedure of filling it in. It's kinda big?
:confused:

Greg
09-10-2003, 10:06 PM
Ebb, Tony et al. Thanks for all the advice. I think the deck job is gonna have to wait until springtime. I don't want to get halfway into it and have the weather turn sour. I think I will just finish the outside of the hull and then work on the interior over winter. I have removed most of the paint from the hull above the waterline and I'm starting to repair dings and errant scraper gouges before fairing and painting. The list gets longer and longer.

When I repair the deck I will be using epoxy...I will be using the tools I have and replace the core with whatever seems right when I reach that point. I don't want to have to do that job over so I will do it right, however, "right" is a pretty conditional word. Like Ebb says, working on the boat is an end itself. It's theraputic...all that sanding and scraping. Doesn't require much thought so your mind can wander: imagining wind and wave, warm sandy beaches, midnight watches, distant shores...makes a guy kinda drooly and misty eyed.

The whole thing is theraputic...sanding, scraping, fairing, planning, imagining. All part of the process. I'll og ooutside tomorrow and take some pictures of the messes I've made so far.

ebb
09-11-2003, 06:28 AM
The epoxy I use is good down to 40 degrees F. You can warm the boat up inside with a heater, Especially with this deck job. Cover with black plastic (won't stick) to help it kick off.

Check out the www.epoxyproducts.com site. This guy flogs many vendors, so he's not commited to any manufacturer's system. He's very opinionated, the site is a gas! A little eccentric, which I'm more friendly with. Here is where you learn not to trust and use adulterated epoxies that you can buy at your local seveneleven marine store. He's a lot cheaper than retail. He'll answer your questions. He sells epoxies that will set up under water, So he may have a laminating version (thin) that will work where you are.

Which Spring are you talking about?:(

marymandara
09-12-2003, 10:44 PM
Hi, all...
I was getting ready to cut the side deck skins today, and started thinking about the rigidity and shape of the hull...obviously for best performance we want as uniform a shape as we can get, and it suddenly struck me that the deck makes up quite a bit of rigidity! Another fellow I know has an identical Triton out in the yard on an identical bunk. His is of course assembled, making for much more weight up high, and on top of that the stick has been lowered for transport and secured to the pulpit, coachroof and pushpit. Reason would have it that his boat should be flexier than mine, as while some of my interior has been cut away I still have the majority of structural bulkheads in place. Wrong!!!
I have had occasion to A/B the two, and mine is floppy. Has to be the decks. There was almost nowhere you could step in a cored area that the deck didn't oilcan badly if you weigh 170 pounds like I do, or in places if you weigh 55 pounds like Junior!

If the hull is out of shape and I recore well, the hull is going to be forever locked in that distorted shape by the newly rigid and sound decks .


Point being, that if the boat isn't level, some distortion is going to happen in the hull from the weight on the jack pads...not on an old Pearson, huh? Guess again!
Bear in mind that the hull thickness is not near so huge as we roll up above the keel root, and gets much thinner(!) up by the deck/hull joint. Check out the pics from the deck removal at Tim Lackey's Triton Daysailor site!

So, armed with a long level and my smallest, lightest, most patient helper (who is also 7 years old) I set about to deal with it. The question comes to mind just what and where to trust on the boat. We set the level across the toerails up forward and found that the boat needed to come up almost an inch at the rail to make it right. Since I have the coamings off now, we laid the level across the cockpit sills and found the reading differed only slightly. Tried a shorter level across the lips of the cockpit locker openings and found it to concur. Further investigation showed that the Stbd. toe rail is in fact about 1/16" SHORTER than the one to port(!) and that accounted for the near total of the discrepancy.

Now, the question also begs as to just how swell the uniformity of the hull shape might or might not have been held at the time the deck went on...they really pumped these boats out, so who knows. I just didn't want to compound whatever problems may be there.

My boat is set up on a 6-pad bunk, and because of the number of people who are sometimes working at one time, I have a v-head jack under the bow and two extra jacks placed well aft to minimize the shimmy of the bunk and oilcanning (well, as much oilcanning as glass this heavy will do as it flexes) of the hull. I had a fair ways to go, so I patiently used all the screws (I found that the most significant pushes are from the aft) and cranked it upright in small and gentle increments. With the boat leaning, I was able to go ahead and loosen the pads I needed to tilt to until they really rattled and then a bit. Took forever. Started with the kid and the level up forward, then checked it aft.

I found a few interesting things. One was that no matter how uniformly I had worked, the boat was out of rack end-to-end by about a 1/4 bubble! Wasn't that way when I started. Hmmm.
I dropped all the pads but the v-head and the two aft jacks, then reset. Closer, but now the whole boat was tilting again! Squared it up one more time, then reset the pads. Real close. Right on. Now to make sure the pads were all bearing evenly...I have a drill for this, which is to drop and reset the center pads first, the bow (obviously with v-head in place) second, the stern last. As I backed off the stbd. center, I was informed that we weren't perfectly level anymore. But...the boat had leaned the OTHER WAY FROM THE SIDE I'D JUST BACKED OFF!

None of the pads were gorilla tight, mind you. One bow and one opposite stern were a bit tighter than the rest. That's all it took to make a "pressure wave" in the hull that did this! We went to the 3-point balance again, then brought up bow, center, stern, far stern. Whenever the bows were tight in this process I would slack and reset the v-head, as well. Went back thru again, Jr. watching the level with Jedi concentration. No movement. Rechecked at the bow, and if we allow for the unequal rail dimensions, we are off about 3/64! Not Bad! Just for grins, I got junior down out of the cockpit and then released the pressure evenly on all of the jack pads. The whole Triton will stand up on the keel blocking and the v-head! Reset the jacks again carefully and we went up to check the level fore and aft. Now, I fib not one bit here, with Jessica as my witness, not one bit of detectible change had occurred!

I also found a couple of other interesting things...when we started leveling, it was easy to push the boat up with the jackscrews, but as we got closer to dead level it became much harder. Also, perhaps very telling as to how much the hull does indeed flex, as you get nearly dead level, ALL the pads will rattle loose all of a sudden! I don't see how this can happen unless the whole hull shape shifts due to the weight all bearing straight down on the keel properly.

Anyway, I hope that this is all of some help and/or interest to anyone who is planning to recore or do any other structural/bulkhead work. As the thicknesses are pretty much identical between the two boats and the Ariel much smaller in surface area, I would think it would be less of a concern for Ariel/Commander...but still worth checking.

Dave

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:11 AM
If you could have checked the boat when it left the factory nearly 40 years ago , you would have found it not to be "square and level". Rarely is a fiberglass , or any other boat material, ever symetrical new or old .(Now it is possible to use computer controlled routers to fair a mold, but very pricey.)
I have seen boats that were an inch and a half wider ( from the centerline) on port over starboard. In other words , don't fret it unless you can see it by the unaided eye ( no levels or strings stretched tight ).
The original molds were made from a 'plug', made by men from wood, lots of room for error. When the mold is pulled from the plug, more error, and when the hull is pulled from the mold, even more error. Then it is all assembled by minimum wage workers, think they really cared how 'square' the boat was. Not until the bulkheads were in and the deck installed does the boat become rigid.
Other than the mold makers and a couple of supervisors, everyone is minimum wage in the glass shops.
Add on to this that Pearson was pulling several hulls a day from the same molds with the same workers and quality control is not what you would like to think it was ( and these were some of the good boats being made at the time )
Oh yeah, this is in the days before OSHA and the EPA , so respirators are nil and everyone is high as a kite from the fumes ( that's why some of the workers worked so cheap ), could add a little more error?

So 1/16 of an inch is a joke , forgetaboutit !

Tony G
09-13-2003, 05:15 AM
Dave
Thanks for doing the gruntwork on that one:D I've always been super paranoid about the hull changing shape on me as I remove more and more of the interior. That is why we stopped chopping where we did(main bulkhead & v-berth) and will rebuild before we evacuate any more of the original interior. I was hoping to get away with using a garden hose water level on the scribed waterline to level and then block the trailer solid. Follow that up with pad readjustment and THEN start to lay the new tabbing. I guess only time will tell. Tony G

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:53 AM
Dave,

How do you know you had the boat 'plumb' before you started to level ?

The only place most manufacturers tried for accurate shape , was at the waterline.
How do you know you dont have 1/16 more or less gelcoat on the toe rail ? or glass , or resin ?
The hull only has it's original shape , when it is still in the mold.

Lots of boats change shape during a haulout and go back to their previous shape when launched. You are supporting on 6 pads of less than 6 sq.ft. total , I bet. The hull is used to being supported by everything below the waterline.

Want better support while out of the water? Take a 1x6 and run it, full length, between the pads & hull, fore and aft. It will even out the load greatly.

Greg
09-13-2003, 08:10 AM
Jeez, although I am anything but an expert, I am reminded in this case of fixing the kitchen chair by adjusting the legs...lemme see...a little off this one...uh nope, too much...

marymandara
09-13-2003, 11:45 AM
Well, the toerail is, I should clarify, visibly taller above the deck one side to the other...that's why we picked a few points to check from. I may not have been real clear in my nomenclature...I was pretty tired. The efforts gone to were to bring the hull vertically "plumb" by "leveling" it athwartships.

My thought, again, is that while I am very aware of the fact a boat changes shape out of the water, I wanted to minimize the distortion caused by the jacks to help the shape be as uniform as possible. The hull shape above the waterline is largely supported by the deck's rigidity...so, rotten deck pretty universally equals a flexier hull. I just didn't want to be doing the deck rebuild in a way that would lock in an unnecesarily deformed shape. It's a sailboat, right? So, the topsides above the waterline become PART OF the effective waterline when the boat is in operation. I have not spent time fairing out the ripples and the roving print-thru for appearance, but for that reason.

One point that I found very interesting, is that the boat is intended to stand vertically on its' keel at haulout...and that anything less than that causes quite a dimensional change in the hull. Similarly, it seems that when the boat IS standing vertically on her keel she is under the least amount of pressure from the jack pads. Literally, as I approached that golden spot the pads all went somewhat loose, including the ones the boat had been inclining towards.

In absence of a semi-reliable choice for a place to plop down a level, I'd say that a guy could feel it pretty well when the hull got vertical. And, if she is standing vertical, you can, as we did, carefully loosen ALL the pads except the v-head until the pads go scuffy-scuffy-wiggle and she'll stand straight up.

It's worth note that a bunk is a flexier situation, no matter how heavy it is built, than blocks and jacks on the ground.
Because of this, I think it is best to check that the boat is "plumb"(or whatever we want to call vertically level) periodically.

The reason this came up in my mind to begin with is that not only is the boat on a bunk, not only have I had to readjust the blocking quite a bit each time the yard have moved her around, but when we had her moved into the building we are now renting she travelled quite a ways across a bumpy yard. The floor in the building is crazy out of plane, so they did some artful shimming under the bunk pads to level it up, and then some leveling of the boat with the jackscrews on their own...overall, she looked pretty good for as caterwompy as the floor is, but I wanted to make sure. Personally, I'm glad I did.

Dave

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 03:17 PM
To plumb the boat, you should ( and it's not easy);
find the centerline.
Stretch 2 strings fore and aft dead on the centerline,one above the other about 1' stem to stern.
Hang a plumb bob.
Adjust the boat until plumb.

Why not a level atwartships? Deck units are not made as carefully as the hull and the mounting of such is a 'close enough,is good enough' job.

If you factory scribed waterline is still there, try a waterlevel.

Its the bulkheads and not the deck that hold the shape of the hull .

Sprite
09-13-2003, 04:20 PM
What kind of jacks should be used to support the deck, while reconstruction is going on. For example the deck is cut out and the balsa is removed. What should the placement be. I was also
interested in finding out if anyone has used devincell. I was on
the deck of a fellow who had I think a thirty five foot nonsuch 1980. He had a mushy deck of balsa and he replaced it with devinicell with west systems epoxy. I think it was injected into the deck. The deck was solid, has anyone tried this and were
there any pitfalls, I was impressed with it. The reason I am asking is because I've heard about leveling the deck and much about baltec, plywood and various types foam. I had at one time a sample of the stuff. It's grooved does this provide better bonding?



John :eek:

ebb
09-13-2003, 05:15 PM
Does anybody read any of this?

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:29 PM
I dont think so Ebb, just you, me & the newbies !

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:38 PM
Well let's just see Ebb;

When #45 was out of the water for deck repairs, I made no special attempt to support the deck from below , took the upper skin off and crawled, walked & climbed all over her taking no special care for anything.
She didn't move flex or loose any shape or camber to the deck.

Now you guys know why we don't want you hanging around the boatyard while we work on your boat.
Boatyard rates;
$35 per hour
$50 per hour if you watch
$80 per hour if you help
$100 per hour if you and your brother-in-law help

Mike G

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:43 PM
Sprite,

It all works, some better than others . Depends on who is used to what. There is nothing wrong with putting balsa back in, hell it worked for 40 years. I just hope I'm around in 40 years to see the decks go mushy again.

Mike Goodwin
09-13-2003, 05:49 PM
Hey Ebb, 8 more posts and I hit 500 .Is there a special badge or something for being so responsive or is it argumentative? Which reminds me of my favorite Monty Python skit.

Sprite
09-13-2003, 07:19 PM
Hey Mike,

They charge $60.00 just for breathing in the boatyard up here.

All kidding aside it I ve found the board to be helpful. I just pulled up the chain plates and they look like bronze were these original.
My portside suffered a bit of water damage. Where the wall is
should I worry about the bottom part of the deck on that side it's
stained.

Capt. John

ebb
09-13-2003, 07:20 PM
Ariel set flat on her keel would be nose down.

Here on the west coast a boat set on hard is done so on a large block, like a 12x12 under her keel just aft of center with an equally large wedge driven in for more support. The front of the boat is supported with a huge sawhorse and another wedge creating some flat. 4 three legged adjustable jack stands strategically placed under the bilges. With these 4 you adjust for balance and make sure the hull is not billowed in by any one, which is easy to do with the screw pads.

If your boat is not completely stripped and if you are not level fore'n'aft or athwartships you still can estimate your levels and of course your centerline.

Two sticks longer than 4 feet with equal lines on them will find ennumerable centers. Eg, place one stick athwartships under the deck at the companionway against the hull, the other stick the same from the other side, bring them together in a straight line across the boat. Find the center point between two equal lines on the sticks. That is a point on the center line of the boat.

Do this stick to stick lower down using the settees.
Measure a center on the sole. Sight the 3 centers see if they line up, sort of.

Do this at the compression bulkhead. Just measure in from two apparently equal outer points and note the center. Do it in the forepeak, highup and low down. You might find the center at the cutwater inside or the center of the rudder tube under the cockpit.

But if you create a number of apparent centers you can take your chalkline and hold it taut thru as many points it will go. You can't drop a plumb bob, but you can put a straight edge across the settees and right angle up or down.
If you can secure the chaulk line, great. Do the same with the higher or lower line of points.

You still with me, bro? Port and starboard are mirror images of each other. S'posed to be. Therefor assume it so. Yer averaging a hundred points until it is cast in epoxy.

If you have lines (string) up, you can carefully move a straightedge close to them and befor you press into them you make a centerline mark on the liner or the sole or where ever. If you can prop these sticks up temporaryly next to your centering strings. you can maybe sight them tosee if they line up. If they do you probably have the center of the boat from stem to stern, and enough waterlines to place any new furniture.

You now make all your measurements from the center.

You can assume that the settees are relatively waterline, and the sole, V-berth the same. And the cockpit deck. You can make these assumptions thruout the boat, inside and out. Assume also that the two main bulkheads are parallel to each other. Also at right angles to the centerline. So that if you projected lines from a center point using a rafter square it would meet the center of the other bulkhead. If it doesn't you can check diagonals and get an idea which bulkhead may be out of line.

You can find the centerline of the foredeck using three straightedges to make a triangle that has equal angles at the base. If your triangle is placed over the toe rail in the same place on both sides AND you are centered on the stem, you instantly have a centerline. (And a bulkhead line, 90 degrees to the CL.) With some fooling around you can find mast center this way. Or where the upper shroud plates go, if you think you lost them or think Pearson didn't get it right.

BY the way the forehatch on 338 was exactly in the center. and square. So here is another place to get centered.
Ohh well, I hope this is helpful to someone.:(

ebb
09-13-2003, 08:26 PM
Hey, we ALL hit 3000 posts!
Congratulations Bill,
this be the best boat site
on the internet, if aye say so myself.

Aye, and a toast:

"Here's to you and here's to me,
Friends may we always be!
But, if by chance we disagree
Up yours! Here's to me!":D

Mike Goodwin
09-14-2003, 05:12 AM
Hey Sprite,
I'd charge $60 an hour to breathe in Boston too.
Not sure about your chain plates, mine are stainless on #45.
As for the bulkhead , give it the pocket knife test, if solid then soak with epoxy and paint it.

Mike Goodwin
09-14-2003, 05:16 AM
Ebb,
You can also take a 1/16" drill bit and hole the waterline, run a string through and measure.
Just 'member to fill the holes with epoxy before launch time .

Mike

John
09-14-2003, 06:20 AM
Mike

Whoa! You just stoppped preachin' and started meddlin' , as they told the old preacher.

I am allowed to put on airs anytime I go to Boston, and I don't get paid extra fur it neither. As clean as Boston air is, it is not quite up to North Shore standards, which is why we are here.

John
Valhalla
Commander No 284

Hull376
09-14-2003, 08:55 AM
I have my OEM chain plates for shrouds. They are chromed bronze.

Bill
09-14-2003, 12:12 PM
Original shroud chainplates were bronze. Backstay chainplate was ss.

marymandara
09-14-2003, 01:24 PM
Sounds like Mike had a stiff one!
If you cut the skins off most places on a Triton unsupported, she drops out of camber...I found this out from hearing the frustrating experience of others.
FWIW, the bad areas of 397's deck, foredeck especially, had NO semblance of the appropriate or remotely uniform camber left, so a-bracin' we will go.
Only used a jack to help get the centerline of the curve filled out, with 2x4 run inside underneath 1/4" ply. Ran sheetrock screws in from outside to suck it tight, then trimmed misc. 2x2 and 2x4 pieces to length to jam in there underneath. Then removed sheetrock screws. Same drill at two other points on each side of center, for 5 in all on the coachroof (remember, we're wider. Ariel would do with 3...or maybe even just the middle.)
We worked coacroof 1st, head/ forward cabin ovehead 2nd, then start bracing the foredeck and work aft down each side.

Dave

Sprite
09-14-2003, 03:21 PM
I want to thank Hull 375. I pulled my chain plates up and they
look bronze. My guess is they are original. The chrome probably
came off. The chrome came off my bronze pulpit. The backstay
is stainless and just had a new one made with ss doubled
the thickness and added to more holes like the manual.
I want to replace the bronze ones with stainless. and ss screws
The ones there look bronze.

The air in Boston is fine however boat is closer to Cape Cod
(Mattapoisett). I want to thank John in Manchester by the
Sea for making his point on the difference of actually being
in Boston and on being in the vicinity. I wouldn't want the
expense of being in Boston Harbor proper.

John

Sprite
09-14-2003, 03:23 PM
Sorry I meant Hull 376 just caught the mistake

John;)

Mike Goodwin
09-14-2003, 05:07 PM
Could be that the 1st 50 or so boats were very overbuilt, even for the 60's. The guys at the Columbia factory didn't trust the spec's from the 'office' and always added extra glass in the early 60's , I bet the guys at Pearson had the same attitude until the bean counters caught them.

Just went down and threw on some extra docklines on old #45, Isabel is headed our way :>[

ebb
09-14-2003, 07:57 PM
Capt. Dave back at the bottom of page two describes a chinese fire drill in making corrections to a boat in middle of a deck recore. What he describes is a good thing to know.

IMHO: If you took the two main bulkheads out, the deck structure, coach and dog house and cockpit would likely sag, because of the weight. Because of the natural shrinkage of the wood, it is my opinion that some sag is already present in all Ariels. It may be observable in the side decks.

Therefor, if you are going to replace the compression beam, you haveto, IMCO, do it with the bulkhead in place. Then, remove the bulkhead - but not befor you support the new beam with struts from below. IMCO it is very important to continue (at all times) to support the deck mold structure.

I feel the same thing is true of the companionway bulkhead. In fact, I have installed a laminated beam under the bridge deck at the bulkhead, which is tied into the hull, braced by the stringers and backed with tabbing. I believe the companionway had sagged on 338. But now it is locked into its final position! No kidding, sit on a settee and look at the bulkhead there....338 had the icebox hole, the engine hole, and was an inch or two short of the top....try to imagine what exactly is holding up the rear of the cockpit, the bridge deck AND the end of the cabin!!!

It's natural for the deck mold to want to relax in time. I would, if I was going to recore, support the front of the coach roof with a temporary beam, hull side to hull side, supported on the stringers. Like I said earlier, it's no big deal to make temporary beams that you support carefully with a bottle screw or two and some two-by when you are about to cut into the deck. Or you could scribe and cut plywood and construct cross braced temporary bulkheading.

When I started on the side decks, I would support the coach roof under the sidedecks inside from the bilge and the settees. I would support the whole length from nose to companionway. Nothing moves!

You don't want to distort the rather delicate inner layer with some macho shimming. This is why and it is still a good idea to consider doing the recore from inside, because you can put some extra force UP against the much thicker deck. Except for the final mat layers (to create the all important composit) it might even be easier all round. And there, by golly, is the deck looking like it always did!!!

A healthy composite deck is extremely important to the integrity of the boat. The Ariel is essentially nothing but skin and a couple of bulkheads.
I would (and have) support the boat hullside to hullside and top to bottom befor I tackled the deck, or cut a large hole. Just like you would on a wood boat. One that you were restoring.

You guys scare me, sometimes

:(

Sprite
09-14-2003, 10:30 PM
Mike

I was reading that the boat builders at the time were scared.
It was written into a few magazines around when the Pearsons
were making the ariels that fiberglass was only a fad and that
wood would be back in a couple of years. So a ton of laminates were added to the fiberglass to make it stronger. They had no
idea that these boats would last 41 years. Not a bad track record.
The thing that I like about the boat is that it is over built in some ways. What I find interesting is Carl Alberg's designs you can
go model to model and find some of the same defects in the design. I found a similar problem with decks and the strong back
with the Alberg 30. I am also glad ebb mentioned the supports gotta get some 2x6 etc.





Captain John:D

glissando
09-15-2003, 04:32 AM
Everett Pearson (yes, that Pearson) debunks this silliness about the hull laminates (i.e. "just add extra glass because we don't know anything and we're scared of this material") in a taped discussion with the New England Triton Association from March 2, 1977.

During this talk, Pearson discusses how the Triton was specifically engineered to certain strength requirements. Specifically, the hull laminate was engineered to be able to support the entire weight of the boat on any single square inch of the hull, with only a certain minimal, specified deflection (I forget exactly, but it's in the recording) and no structural failure. I imagine the same sort of engineering was used for subsequent models as well. Granted, their engineering specifications were high, and the boats' hulls may well be overbuilt, but they were engineered as such--it wasn't an accident.

This is not to condone the myriad other construction flaws that can be found in the older Pearsons. They were a budget boat and were undeniably imperfect, but look how well they've withstood the trials of time regardless. The need for certain repairs and structural enhancements after 30 or 40 years can hardly be faulted.

The recording I mentioned above, along with another very interesting talk by Tom Potter (the person who brought the idea for the Triton to the Pearson cousins in 1958), are available on CD to anyone who is interested from the New England Triton Association. A nominal fee to cover production and shipping costs is all that is required. You may contact me for details. Email me at tlackey@pearsontriton.com

To anyone interested in these recordings: Please note that these recordings are not perfect--they are duplicates of amateur recordings from 1977--but they are audible and provide an interesting history lesson.

Tony G
09-15-2003, 05:32 AM
I took my beam out and the bulkhead out...I broke my boat:(

Sprite
09-15-2003, 07:52 AM
During the fifties and sixties they were adding more laminates on the whole. I felt personally they were better built because they
made the molds using the thicknesses of wood boats. It was an
industry in transition.



glissando, along time ago I looked at your site. I found there
were similarities how we found the boats. Sprite was in horrible
condition when I found her. Now she is starting to shape up.
Now it's the decks and recoring project.

Tony G How did it happen


Capt John

Tony G
09-15-2003, 08:05 AM
Capt John
Purely tongue in cheek. This boat is solid enough to work on without worry. Not to say I don't pay attention to what's going on or I don't care but I have a ton of confidence that she will not split apart on her trailer while I work on her. Might I add that I fully intend to put the main bulkhead back in before turning my attention to the next phase of the project but that is because it makes the most sense not because I fear catastrophy. These boats are supposed to be fun! Not worrisome. Tony G

Sprite
09-15-2003, 09:05 AM
Tony G,

These boats are fun when everything is in wonderful working order. I have had my hair pulling sessions with mine at times.
You know the types, well my deck is squishy. I have to pull out
galvanized screws off deck hardware or the previous owner
put a chainpipe to close to the aft end of the front shelf. Not to
mention my bizarre stairs leading in.


Thank God for some of my friends and family
who have helped


Captain John

Here they are worried more
about the hurricane

ebb
09-15-2003, 09:46 AM
Wonder what the equation is for a budget boat in relation to budget engineering? Also the Triton specs could be quite different from Ariel specs, as they are different from the A-30. (viz its 1" thick transom.)

It's pretty set here that the later Ariels Could have less layers of laminate tham the earlier ones. Perhaps the engineering progressed over the production run. The deck composit on 338 has a very sparse inner mat layer. We have only our personal experiences to go by. While the hull on 338 looks completely substantial and no doubt is engineered to be so, this amatuer believes that it is also entirely possible to rack the Ariel out of plumb. Especially if the deck is opened up.

Maybe the Ariel hull could be stood on a square inch point anywhere on its surface. All 2 1/2 tons? But I know that my cut water WAS 3/8"s
thick and so WAS the 'flat' areas of the keel. A lot thinner than the "bullet proof" scantlings we think these old plastic boats have. I'm led to believe. A whole lot of hull strength comes from Alberg's fully rounded curves. You engineer these surfaces (ie, make them skinny) because of the inherent strength of the compoud curve.

What damage might happen if you rammed your 2 1/2 tons into a submerged container at 6 knots? You know, or a log? Still, we all can agree that these Pearson hulls ARE very strong and aren't going to change shape on the hard, in the yard. Well.....is this true - or not?

But does Everett guarantee that when you remove large portions of the deck that the hull will not move at all? Or for that matter the unsupported deck/cabin mold? My amatuer assumption is that the entire package has to be in it's original engineered state, let's call it, for the engineering to be viable.

I'm not an engineer or a plastic boat professional for that matter. I will have examined every cubic centimeter of 338 by launch time. That doesn't make me an expert, it makes me weird, but a lover of the craft (pun intended.) So, when I look at Pearson:

338 may have been the pond version of the Miget Ocean Racer Cruiser that I assume the Ariel was marketed as. Because the unlocked, ungasketed cockpit lockers had only perforated hard board to keep contents from ending up in the bilge, green water in the cockpit could well have been a disaster for somebody in the past. This is an offshore boat? I don't think so.

I'm wary of marketing and engineering.

John
09-15-2003, 09:59 AM
Ebb,

My understanding, along with conversations past and present, is that Pearson created the Commander using the Ariel/Alberg hull as a quick response to the MORC class reacing. It is clear that while the Ariel is capable, the Ariel just did not have room for the crew needed to race. Not that I am objective about my 9 ft cockpit.

If you you look at the PHRF ratings, on average the Commander will be slightly faster by just a smidgen (you do keep a smidgen for measurement don't you?). 256.8 and 250.8 for the Ariel and Commander respectively.

John G
Valhalla
Commander No 284

ebb
09-15-2003, 02:58 PM
Capt. John,
No surprise the Commander is faster than the Ariel. I don't think they race against one onother on S.F. Bay. Probably because the close PHRF ratings creates too many protests for serious toasting after the race.

Maybe there's a fleet out of Alviso. what race each other.

I don't know if A/Cs go out in the Pacific for a rated race...But if they do go out with unwaterproofed cockpit lockers, we may have a memorial one of these days.

Why does it take ten people to crew a race in a Commander, anyway? Can only fit four in an Ariel if you don't count the cook. Isn't four good enough for a day race?;)

John
09-15-2003, 03:55 PM
My memory grows dim and I can't remember what was sailing at the same time as the Commander. Was the Cal 27 later? I think it was.


I just looked at the base PHRF's to keep things equal and the early Cal 27 was rated 192/outboard ands 195/Inboard. The 27-II and 27-III were rated slightly faster. That's a more than a smidgen difference. I told you that having a smidgen is useful from time to time.

Of course the Ariel fit into the rule. The question is how did it rate and how did it sail against it's rating?

Ten is a slight exageration. I think I would race with:
Skipper/helmsman 1
Jib trimmers/tailers 2
Main trim/Navigator 1
Foredeck monkey 1

When I raced on the Chesapeake , we used to race the Annapolis 25's with 3-4, but that could get exciting.

John
Valhalla
Commander No 25

PS. Valhalla took a second in class in the last S.S. Crocker Race here here off Manchester, MA.

ebb
09-15-2003, 07:14 PM
Without my tongue in cheek, I can say without exageration, and heartyly:
Congrats on getting the old girl a high-end second!

There have been many times when I wished I be a racer (or a fisherman.) You guys just slap on a coat of vinyl and GO, tweek your new G A A A R H A U E R s, slip on your topsiders, stick your chins out to check the telltales, and breathe in that special pheromone mix of salt, ozone, chicks and glory.....

whilst us poor schleps, who actually work on boats, sweat and cuss in the bowels and bilges, breath dust and fumes of parking lots and cans of can't-be-made-safe petrochemicals. Just to get her into a sailable conditon, again!

What a life! P H R F to you, Buddy....

Bet you don't even feel guilty taking in a Sunday ball game!:D

John
09-15-2003, 08:53 PM
Weellll......I gotta be honest here. We are among friends and mates.

The S.S. Crocker Race is a "Fun race" sponsored by the Manchester Harbor Boat Club ( my Club), the Manchester Yacht Club (where the Hinckleys live) and the Crocker Boat Yard. The race is in memory of the founder and Famous Marine Architect, S. S. Crocker (Think Stone Horse for instance). The race committee only hears protests on December 31st in the middle of the harbor. The start is a staggered one, and if the committee has done it's job, everyone crosses the finish line at the same time. My class starts first, and this year included a 45 ft motorsailor, and a Stone Horse that was a smidgen ahead of me ( I didn't see him finish.)

I am still learning how to sail Valhalla. The addition of a traveller has made a visable difference in my ability to point. I am still learning how to set my asymetric spinnaker. Valhalla loves to reach and I made up a lot of time on the reaching leg.

It still can get exciting at the corners. The calls for buoy room can get a bit strained, but I have never seen anyone come to blows. I do get blown away down wind. I am now getting convinced that I need to tack down wind and that means I am going to have to learn how to gybe the spinnaker.

SO I hope to end up in the top half and finish well in class. This year was a good one.

John
Valhalla
Commander No 284

Sprite
09-24-2003, 11:08 AM
Mike,

When you mention the bulkhead on the previous page and using a knife do you mean from the top. I noticed a slight crack on the liner on the left side of the companion way door as you are walking into the cabin its in the corner closer to the bow.
Should I just fill it in with epoxy. It's hairline. The top of the
cabin is solid just epoxy???


Capt. John






:confused:

Sprite
03-04-2004, 07:44 PM
Captain Mike,


How much core should you buy at the different depths let's say
for an area forward of the cockpit to the stemhead. I wonder is the cockpit floor balsa. How do you get at the coring in the cabin roof.



Capt John




:)

Bill
03-04-2004, 10:01 PM
Capt John,

Have you read the Sandifer article? Good Old Boat has placed his article on delamination repair on its Web site. You can read it online at:
http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

Sprite
03-12-2004, 08:15 AM
Yeah,

I read it a while back but was not to clear about removing the
balsa from the inside in the forward cabin and how to create
attach a foam core to the outside fiberglass skin and then
put back the ceiling.


I'm planning to start work in a week or two.


Capt. John:)

commanderpete
03-12-2004, 10:14 AM
No specific answers, but here is an example of a core job from underneath on a San Juan.

http://personal.monad.net/~catamount/Quasar/part1.html

http://personal.monad.net/~catamount/Quasar/Fiberglassed!.jpg

mrgnstrn
03-13-2004, 09:16 AM
If you are going to attempt the "under-side" repair, you might want to look into vacuum bagging.
West-System has a $3 manual on the basics of vaccuum bagging, which might be worth looking at.
The basic principle is that you put in your epoxy, stick on the core, cover the whole thing with some polyethylene sheet sealed at the edges, and draw a vaccuum on the inside. That way air pressure (~14.7 psia at sea level) pins the core to the ceiling evenly. And presumably better then trying to hold it in place with braces, etc. With a really good vaccuum pump, you can probably get almost all of that 14.7 psid, but even a moderate one will let you get at least 10 psid. For the whole underside of the forepeak, that would add up to.....~2000 square inches, and ~ 10 lbs per sq-inch diffential pressure (psid), maybe 20,000 lbs of clamping force evenly over the whole area. Sure to squeeze out any excess air bubbles and excess epoxy. And since you can vary the vacuum, if you feel like you are going to squish the core, you can reduce the vaccum, say to 5 psid.
Ebay can hook you up with a vaccuum pump for ~$75.
When I replace #3's core, I plan on first trying the vaccuum bag technique.
Some numbers to remember:
29 inches Hg vaccuum ~=~ 14.7 psid
is almost a perfect vaccuum.
10 psid ~=~ 1440 lbs clamping force per square foot.
Let me know how it goes!

mrgnstrn
05-23-2005, 07:18 AM
What is the thickness of the core in the forepeak?
I want to buy materials from the supplier without having to make a 2.5hr round trip for one measurement.
I am sure that if I had time to scour the website, I would find it; but alas I am at work.

Thanks!,

Mike Goodwin
05-23-2005, 02:32 PM
I guess you mean the deck core on the foredeck. #45 was average of 1/2" , thinner near the rails .

mrgnstrn
05-23-2005, 07:31 PM
Yes....the foredeck.
And Thanks!

ElBeethoven
06-15-2005, 03:03 PM
Ok I have completely lost the forest among the trees. Would someone just please TELL ME from where and what kind of balsa I need to get so that I can finish this budget of mine and decide if I want to tackle this lovely deck recore project!?!??! I've been bouncing around the web for six hours, and I swear I don't know a bit more than when I started except of course that there are 8 million different kinds of balsa core.

And theoretically, we're talking about total square footage that would approximate both side decks in toto. How much epoxy would that take? Two gallons? Three? Twelve?

Can I just use 3/8 marine plywood double coated with thinned epoxy? Now THAT sounds like the way to go (which I'm sure it isn't).

A very frustrated,

J.

commanderpete
06-15-2005, 05:16 PM
There have been many threads on Tim's Triton site about core jobs.

At least one thread spoke about materials needed. It's a bit imprecise, naturally, but may give a rough idea. The sq. footage on a Triton deck might be 1/3 more?


http://www.triton381.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=423&highlight=balsa+core

Mike Goodwin
06-15-2005, 05:20 PM
Using ply or balsa is going backwards , closed cell is the way to go.
How much epoxy do you need , how much beer can you drink , couldn't tell you either one without seeing you or the boat.
You got plenty of time to get the epoxy, it will take more than an hour or 2 to open up them decks .
Just do it !

Mike Goodwin
06-16-2005, 05:13 AM
When you core the decks , you use thickened epoxy , not thinned . No voids!

c_amos
06-16-2005, 08:07 AM
When you core the decks , you use thickened epoxy , not thinned . No voids!Don't you mean the other way around? When working where I might encounter a void, I have been flowing thinned. Ground out tiny bubbles repairing circuit cards years ago, sure don't want any lurking in any part of my hull.



Jeremy,

Would like to see some more broad views of your boat, many times others will see something they have had an issue with (good or bad) that can be helpful. Really, most of us just like to look at these boats http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/images/smilies/smile.gif

As I understand your posts, on calculating the costs, you are trying to get a rough idea of what you are getting into. I understand and admire your rational approach.

My experience has been that it will be very difficult to accurately estimate the cost, but that the material and labor prove a good investment. I believe the more important basis for the decision must be based on something not so easily expressed on a balance sheet.

Neither the heart nor the eye are the guide that Hollywood make them out to be in life. Boats may well be the exception to this rule.

IMHO.

Mike Goodwin
06-16-2005, 02:10 PM
Thin epoxy is a sealer only!
You want to bed the core in thick epoxy , thinned stuff can run out where you can't see it. Lay done a layer of "P-nut butter" and push the core into it so that you get an ooze all around , then you know there are no voids . Plus thickened epoxy is stronger than pure resin and thinning epoxy weakens it even further . Been doing this s**t for 40 years now and learned a thing or two.
I'm becoming one of the old timers and all I really wanted to be was be an old rummy! What are you if you drink Bushmils?

Bill
06-16-2005, 02:54 PM
Using ply or balsa is going backwards, closed cell is the way to go.

Do you have any product suggestions?

ebb
06-16-2005, 03:56 PM
Get it here at surf board shops. Expensive, think it has to be imported from Germany. You are (as I understand, not having had to do it. YET) going to have to shape it once it's gooped in place. Like over at the toerail, where it skinnies out. But it is a pleasure to work with - you can, for instance, feather it down to a feather and the foam still holds together. Pvc foam and epoxy seems to be an unbeatable combination.

Cabosil is the thickner. Have added milled glass fiber (a heavy dust) to thicken epoxy and get strength. It's advertised as being useful for filetting, but what's happened to me is that as the filler goes toward set the stuff will thin (exotherm) and loosen up. Don't think you want to get the gel too stiff. I think a little flow is a good thing on wide horizontal surfaces. And I would butter the deck and the piece going in to be sure to minimize bubbles and dry spots.

I also believe that putting smaller pieces into deck isn't a bad thing because as you 'tile' them together you would be creating mini I beams which could be argued also tie the inside skin to the new deck skin you'll be putting down. The foam has great integrity and strength, so I beams aren't really necessary. But penetration of the epoxy into the foam surface isn't as much as it would be with end grain balsa. Everett liked balsa because it could take compound curves.* You'll also find shaping with sanders pretty easy too, as the foam has resistence to it.

*Took out a good piece of the polyester and foam on the cabin. Penetration of the polyester into the endgrain was deep, and the joining of the two skins and the balsa complete, they could not be separated. Except by rot. And it took a long time for that to happen.

Assume you will be doing it from the top. I found the inner skin on 338 to be very thin. If I had to replace the core I would think the inner skin after the deck and the rot were removed would not be able to be worked on, scraping and grinding, because it'd be too flimsey.

ElBeethoven
06-16-2005, 04:08 PM
If you have recored a deck in your life, and that boat did not subsequently sink, I would like to know what products you used and if you were happy with how it was still doing X, Y and Z years later.

Mike, I know that you place the new core on a thickened epoxy layer on the lower skin. My suggestion about thinned epoxy was to coat the cut and shaped plywood for the core BEFORE placing it in the deck thereby sealing it so it wouldn't rot, and I won't have to do this again for another 42+ years. Has anyone ever heard of anyone doing this? Or anything LIKE it?

I agree that closed cell and its inherent rot-proof, inorganic nature make it a mighy fine core material, but it's cost prohibitive to me. Simple as that. And let's not forget that a properly executed and sealed balsa deck lasts a long, LONG time and costs far less than the exotics.

By way of explanation, before college I lived and cruised on a Paceship 26 for about five years making most of the mistakes that I now intend to avoid. I'm aiming for "seaworthy." Not perfect. Not restored. Not museum quality. There might be dings in the gelcoat. OK. The brightwork might be faded. Fine. There will also be completely new standing rigging with 1/4" - 316SS and Sta-Lok terminals, 200' of 1/4" chain, three slightly oversized anchors, all new electrical wiring and, so it appears, a new deck if I purchase #120.

Beyond a sound hull and deck and killer ground tackle, the rest is detail work, detail work for which I know it is almost impossible to specify costs. Still, I can easily figure that 1/4" wire is $1.45/ft, and Sta-lok terminals are $38.50 each. I need around 161' of the former, and I need 16 of the latter. A 22-lb Bruce anchor is $122.99. Chain is $1.47/ft. See? (BTW, these are all real prices that I've found on the web. If you need to know where I've found them, please ask!) I'm not looking to balance to the penny. I'd just like to be able to say that a new deck will be around X dollars. It CAN'T be that hard. Civil procedure was hard. Cognitive neuropsychology was hard. My job.... let's not go there. :)

OK enough rambling. :) But now you can see where I'm going with this. So I'm still begging for suggestions.

I'll post some more pics later tonight. I need to Photoshop them down, or Bill might come after me. :D

All the best!

J.

For your amusement: "Wooden boats regularly die early deaths of natural causes; fiberglass boats must be assassinated." - Don Casey

mrgnstrn
06-16-2005, 06:22 PM
Mr. El B.,
I can relate because, I too, am Nerdly.....and proud of it.
Maybe it is the Engineer in me.....OK....it is the engineer in me.
I have a great resource for this kind of stuff:
Oceana Limited in Annapolis.
www.oceanaltd.com
They have a crappy website, but awesome hardcopy catalog.
Their number is 1-800-523-8890.
They cater mostly to commercial-type boatbuilders, marinas, etc.

but...you asked about core material.
Here are some prices for 1/2" thick material (I think that is ~ the right size)
ATC Core-Cell, "A500 grade", Plain, no cross cuts: $167/(4'x8'sheet)
Baltek, "contourkore", "CK100" grade, $32.60/(2'x4'sheet)
ditto......ditto....."AL-600R" grade, $36.74/(2'x4'sheet)
Airex PVC closed cell foam, "contourable" $51.78/(24"x42"sheet)
ditto......ditto...."rigid" $115/(48"x58"sheet)

Then there are some composites that may not be suitable for core on decks, but maybe as a replacement for plywood (but really, I have no idea, but from looking and playing with the samples in their shop, it can be really really stiff):

Coosa Composites, composite panels, Highly rigid, with fiberglass strand and roving inside the panel:
$303 - $209 depending on density and strength, all for 4'x8' sheets.

like I said, these are all prices for 1/2" material, but they have others available, and also some other "styles", like material that has more cuts to make it more flexible.

For stories and experiences, the Triton guys have some good accounts on the web, both with balsa, and with composites.

For how much epoxy, not sure, but my experience with epoxy is that it gets used up ~twice as fast as I expect. Not sure why.

As for epoxy vs polyester, there are plenty of opinions on both, but again, there are some accounts on using epoxy and using regular polyester from the Triton guys. And for more opinions on E vs P, plenty in a few threads on this forum to digest before making that decision.

Hope this helps a little.

Bill
06-16-2005, 06:32 PM
Mr. El B.,but...you asked about core material.
Here are some prices for 1/2" thick material (I think that is ~ the right size)
ATC Core-Cell, "A500 grade", Plain, no cross cuts: $167/(4'x8'sheet)
Baltek, "contourkore", "CK100" grade, $32.60/(2'x4'sheet)
ditto......ditto....."AL-600R" grade, $36.74/(2'x4'sheet)
Airex PVC closed cell foam, "contourable" $51.78/(24"x42"sheet)
ditto......ditto...."rigid" $115/(48"x58"sheet)

As boat stuff goes, those prices don't sound too expensive to me. Two 4x8 sheets at max needed to recore the deck and one 2x4 for part of the cabin trunk -- say $500 total?

Mike Goodwin
06-16-2005, 06:35 PM
Ebb,
I get my foam cores from the same place I was buying surfboard foam back in the 60's.
I comes in 2x4 , 4x4, 4x8 etc, sheets and in thicknesses from 1/4" to 2" and possibly thicker.
I like one called Wes-Core , looks like a slice of honeycomb , some is yellow and some green, works easy , bonds to epoxy or poly resin .
I don't like thickening epoxy with cabosil as a general thickener it is too hard and brittle , milled cotton fiber is good along with a dash of "Barney Dust" .
Fine hardwood sawdust (wood flour) from the bandsaw is far superior to cabosil
Even better is a pre-thickened epoxy out of Fla. and it is much cheaper than WEST, EAST or SYS-3 . 1:1 very forgiving mix, choice of fast medium or slow hardeners.

ElBee, Ply is probably the worst core material choice I have ever seen or repaired . Boats with ply core decks are generally valued lower in surveys than a balsa core boat.
Water travels through ply from one end to the other with ease . When you paint the ply with epoxy thinned or not , it wont penetrate past the glue lines if it gets that far. In other words it can still rot, seen a lot of it too!
Good ply will cost almost as much as good core and be harder to install .
You would be better off using balsa core , a lot faster , cleaner and cheaper. Use end grain Mahogany blocks where hardware will be mounted .
Use a non-blushing epoxy , because it will take many sessions to do the job.
Acetone is not epoxy thinner BTW.

BTW,
In the last year I mixed up over $20,000 worth of epoxy on one project .

ebb
06-16-2005, 07:30 PM
Lots and lots of good stuff here.
Stuff was talking about is solid uncut pvc foam, when you say 'divinycel foam' in the shop they'll take you to grey or green vinyl foam. Solid small cells, fairly stiff in sheet, but light and NOT brittle. Well, you can break it if you want. There's not er and satisfying with the right stuff.

I wouldn't use the cut stuff because I'm superstitious, all those mostly unfilled cuts in the new waterproof deck. Haven't done it, but I suspect that easily handled smaller/longer pieces would be a way to go. There isn't much camber but you'd still have to force a wide piece into place, while 'planks' would go in easier and fast ('course you have to prefit) Am I correct?

Bill
06-16-2005, 10:38 PM
I'll also need to do something about the huge outboard cutout.

Cutout is factory and came with a teak or mahogany hatch cover. The ob throttle is not its reason. That is usually used in the vertical position. The opening is for accessing the engine mounting screws and (unless you have a Nissan verticle pull) for pulling the starting rope. It also is an added source of ventilation - a big problem when running the engine.

Mike Goodwin
06-17-2005, 04:17 AM
120' schooner in Norfolk , Va. , just commissioned last week and is now somewhere on the Chesapeake Bay sailing.

Mike Goodwin
06-17-2005, 05:02 AM
ElBee,

The cracks around the turnbuckle base are cosmetic , just gelcoat, spyder cracks .

Looks like someone shortened the spreaders to me.

Squirt the turnbuckle with PB- Blaster , it will turn after a few minutes and 2 or 3 applications od Blaster .

Clean the interior of the boat with a white vinegar wipedown or spray it on, wont hurt anything but the mold. Next scrub with 'citrus orange' handcleaner the industrial stuff and wipe with fresh water , use no bleach, it's toxic to people and mold will grow back if it isn't neutralized with an acid, like vinegar, which also kills the mold on it's own.
When I got #45 it was so black inside (from mold) , it looked like it had been on fire.

commanderpete
06-17-2005, 06:09 AM
A budget????

Hahahahahahahahahaha

You could try to make one (then double it)

Sure, the cost is painful. But, its the time that gets 'ya. Sooooo many hours.

Meanwhile everything and everybody is competing for those same hours.

Excruciating.

Any boat you look at is going to have problems. But is another boat gonna make your heart flutter?

Only a good sea boat is worth the investment, in my humble and cranky opinion.

Tim61N
06-17-2005, 12:32 PM
Pete hit it right on the head, I tried to estimate my renovation costs and itemized everything out pretty well came up with about $5000. I've pretty much hit that mark and I'm only half way to where I wanted to be!! :(
It would be nice not to have to worry about the money and just do it, but if we all had that sentiment W.M. would be a few mil richer!!(and I would be holding a cardboard sign on the corner) :D
B.T.W. Looks like you need to figure in buying a cat to catch the giant rats! :)

Sprite
06-22-2005, 05:31 PM
Corecell is the way to go. I started cutting up my deck and I wouldn't
touch endgrain balsa in sheets ever after this one. There is a place in Upstate New York called Noah's they are also in Canada and they have an over abundance of it and they are having a major clearance sale. You need 3/8 and they come in 4x8 sheets runs roughly $500.00 but I think you can get it from them on the cheap because they overstocked it.


John I think it is Noah's.com but try Noah's marine supplies on google.

ElBeethoven
06-23-2005, 08:43 AM
Noah's is indeed cheaper than anyone else I've found. I was going to go with Nidacore, but I see that I can get 3/8" Core-cell for $94/sheet from them which makes for less than $300 for a whole new deck core. Thanks again!

Tangentially, has anyone had an NEGATIVE experiences with Raka epoxy? The six-gallon kit with slow hardener is more than $100 cheaper than the West 4.89 (or whatever) gallon kit.

Fair winds,

Jeremy

commanderpete
06-23-2005, 09:49 AM
Used a couple of gallons at one time, no problem. Haven't heard anything bad about them.

I seem to recall the prices on fillers, cloth etc. wasn't that great.

Haven't had a chance to order from these people, but I'll just throw it out there
http://www.shopmaninc.com/prices.html

I like 2:1 epoxy. Harder for me to screw up the measuring. Don't bother with the pumps anymore. I don't trust them and tend to lose count :o

I'll just dedicate one graduated mix cup for resin and one for hardener. Pour the contents of each into a disposable container.

ebb
06-23-2005, 11:00 AM
One more time from ole ebb.
You want 2 to 1 100% solids (NO SOLVENTS, LOW TOXICS, LOW SMELL) laminating epoxy with a SLOW hardner. Most systems have fast hardners at different proportions, but will result in a more brittle finished plastic. You ought to ask the supplier/vender if he can GUARANTEE no blush. NO BLUSH. You should never have blush problems in warm weather. High end, premium, marine epoxy should give you no problems down to 40 degrees.

I buy my stuff from TAP Plastics here on the west coast. Not cheap, but this is to say that using a cheap quart 'multimeasure' container (ml and oz) you get at the shop is by far the simplest and easiest way to measure quantities. I'm more forgetful than C'pete, so I use a sharpie to make three marks on the translucent container for the proportions. You can see what you pour, I pour out of gallon cans. Never had a failure (knock on plastic). And after a short while working with the quart container you'll be able to judge the amount you need. You can't get the same 'feel' with pumps. And they gum up.

Mike Goodwin
06-23-2005, 01:06 PM
I get most of my epoxy from FGCI.com, 1:1 , 2:1, 3:1,5:1 and all the fillers, no one can touch their price for me. Never had any problems in over 12 years use.
$65 for 2 gallons of 1:1 !

ElBeethoven
06-23-2005, 06:49 PM
Ebb, direct from the Raka website:

"All Raka Epoxies are 100 % solids with no evaporating solvents and have low viscosity for superb penetration and wetting out of wood and fiberglass."

If they're lying, let me know; I'm still a lawyer in New York State. (That was a joke.) They also have a blush-free hardener with a medium cure time of 30 mins at room temperature. This hardener adds around $30 to the price of a 6-gallon kit ($264 for regular; $298 for high-tess) . So you can either pay $30 for no blush or $30 for Scotch-brite pads. However, seeing as how I'll be doing this in another three weeks in the blazing mid-Atlantic, summer sun, the less time I have to scrub ANYTHING, the better.

Mike, I've definitely checked out FGCI.com, and yes, their prices are hard to beat. What their site is short on is I-N-F-O-R-M-A-T-I-O-N about their products. In fact, if you go to the FAQs page, there are no FAQs. Oversights like that make me very suspicious of a company's quality and attention to detail. Still, if you've not had any problems in 12 years of hard-core yard work, I'm far more willing to listen to a single testimonial like that than every piece of literature and scientific study published by OSHA or anyone else. And even a bonehead like me couldn't screw up a 1:1 mix, which is a very good thing.

Also guys, I am running under the impression that colloidal silica is the thickener of choice when rebedding the core. Please tell me that I got at least that right?

Mike Goodwin
06-23-2005, 07:01 PM
all 1:1 epoxy is non blush , it is the hardener in 5:1 that causes the blush.

FGCI has excellant tech support , a 800 # and humans to talk to on the other end.
They make a 1:1 pre thickened epoxy that is best for bedding cores , saves a lot of time and the thickening is just right every time .

Milled fiber is actually better than cabosil for a strength filler .

ebb
06-23-2005, 07:51 PM
Jeremy,
Fumed Silica. Please check out
wwwepoxyproducts.com
for Paul's 'More than you ever wanted to know about fumed silica.') I just happen to use Aerosil because that's what my supplier carries.

The stuff is lighter than air! You must use a particle mask when mixing it into your epoxy bucket. You are creating a GEL with the stuff, and working on a horizontal surface your gel should be pretty loose.

Mike is the honcho here, so listen to him. Once you have a batch made and you are glueing in the foam and the stuff is too thick (we are talking about 2-part epoxy and silica only) you can mix the batch in the bucket very quickly with your mixing stick and that will loosen it up.n But IMCO will quicken exotherm.

As I attempted to say, I mix batches in a measured quart container. My mixing stick continuously scrapes the side of the container. Mix thoroly but not rapidly. Then pour nearly all of the liquid into a gallon bucket where the silica or whatever is added. Leaving a little in the smaller container you can use to loosen up the mix - which is easy to do if you're always improvising - like me, because yer lazy. Or brilliant.

I buy Aerosil in bulk, which turns out to be a ten pound bag. So I have to decant (under protest, it's a lousey job) from the bag into a plastic 8# Purina cat chow container. Again, it just worked out that way. It has a nice lid that snaps closed. So, anyway you can figure to control the stuff would be good. There is literally NO WAY to get small amounts out of the bag. You don't want to breathe it or have it floating around for anybody else to breathe it.

I guess we're doomed to using local suppliers or what you are used to for epoxy. You are right: you have to read their language, how open they are about their product, and what they don't say about it. If it's the salesman talking, forget it. I don't know RAKA, but you have to assume these people want your return business. West System has a troublesome product but because they talk well about methods they have a following. Once you get their pamphlets you can move on to more reliable products.

I've gotten good and bad advice from the guys at my local plastic store. But you can drag your concern around with the guys, what they've heard, and if lucky, what they've done. And get direction. The thing with epoxy, if it an't right you can grind it away.

ebb
06-23-2005, 08:40 PM
Hey, I agree, FGCI is rather anoying. It reminds me of the snooty attitude you get at the counter in some contractor supply places. You supposed to know what the bloody letters mean and what sizes stuff comes in - let alone seeing a picture in the catalog of what you might be getting. So if you want their prices you have to research somewhere else and then come back to the page. Compounding the strangeness, there doesn't seem to be any way to order except by phone. Shipping and handling is to be a surprise. Wait, wait, here it sez you have to become a member first.

:) How to be friendly & helpful Example:
[Closeup photo of some different colored foams in varying thickness]
KLEGECELL GS, sheet size 48"X32" (see our special pricing)
a closed-cell grid-scored PVC foam which provides stability and structural integrity in sandwich construction. It is made in 9 densities of which we supply the most requested medium densities R-60 and R-75, often used in recoring classic plastic boat decks.
[Check out our customer DIY pages for progression photos of a restoration and an estimate of materials needed.]

Yeah, right!

Watch it if you are going to order fiber. Milled fiber almost universally refers to milled glass, a heavy powder. Noticed that FGCI has flocked cotton in black or white. So you have to say cotton, or polyethelene, or kevlar, or carbon.

Say Mike, if my supplier has any milled cotton it comes in a jar. Anyway, I've never used the stuff. WHY is it any stronger than silica? And if you're looking for strength, why not milled glass? But if you're really looking to add strength to the gel why not mix in 1/4" chopped strand?

Flocked cotton.
Gotta admit, doesn't sound very Bushmills! ;)

Mike Goodwin
06-24-2005, 04:19 AM
FGCI is a very 'down home' kind of business, call them up and just ask for the catalogue saying you saw it in WoodenBoat mag and they will send you one free. A very informative document it is with lots of 'how to' in it.

Milled fiber is always cotton to me , at least that is what I always get when I order it . Glass powder is another thing you want to be careful with .

Say your epoxy was a 1000 gal batch, and you had the choice of thickening with 3x5 notepad paper or 1' long pieces of rope .
Which would be stronger?
The notepad paper would be harder as it absorbs the epoxy , but the rope will be stronger because it mats and meshes together to form a interlocked structure .
Anywhere you want to bond surfaces and one can absorb any epoxy mix , fiber is better because on a microscopic level the fibers are drawn into the material , such as wood or foam. With cabosil the epoxy is drawn in and the silica stays out weakening the epoxy ( starving the joint ).
Cabosil is an excellent product and makes a very hard , extremely hard epoxy.
What most people don't realize is, your epoxy additives are like spices , most of the time you need more than one in the soup .
Say you are mounting deck hardware with 1/4" screws , drill a 3/4" hole fill with cabosil epoxy mix then drill a 1/4" hole in the center of that . That is what silica is good at .
Laminating a new mast step , 1/2 cotton & half silica in a loose mix more like puddin then P-nut butter and dont over clamp and squeeze it all out .
Fixing dings , use Barney Dust ( micro spheres ) with a dash of cotton and silica ( silica sands very bad so you need a softer filler).

Ok now , for more secrets you'll have to buy my new DVD "Epoxy Tips" for 29.95 + S&H ( west coast add $100) allow 6 to 8 months for delivery.

Sprite
06-24-2005, 06:57 AM
Oh another thing corecell is supposed to have a better bond with epoxy and
insulation properties. So epoxy away :D


John

ebb
06-24-2005, 07:41 AM
'Lo John, Corecell-A is definitly a marine foam and has superior impact resistance and bonding properties. See, for a comparative overview:
http://boatdesign.net/articles/foam-core-properties/
...hope that works

Thanks Mike, for explaining the mechanical properties of fiber vs silica. If it is strength you crave then kevlar pulp is the filler you need. It is said that for a given thixotropic gel you need much less quantity than silica. (Compared to flocked cotton, don't know - but cotton comes from Arkansas and Kevlar from some nasty military/industrial plant) And that probably means the kevlar mix will 'flow' better into all the incidental spaces in a recore.

Also, I would not get gridded foam - unless you're vacuum-bagging. IE, imco, the cuts can only weaken the finished deck if they are not all totally filled with resin.

ebb
06-26-2005, 08:50 AM
Think I might try some. Found an outfit called
www.fibreglast.com
in Brookville OH. Want to try it for filleting, especially exterior. 100% silica is always difficult to sand/shape, even the next day. Cotton sounds like you might have a longer window. See how Kevlar responds. Said to be the lightest of the fillers (including silica?) so maybe you can get strength without sag (as I've found anyway, mixing silica and glass powder) using only kevlar.

ElBeethoven
06-27-2005, 12:29 PM
I have a quick (hopefully) question for Sprite and anyone else who has worked with Corecell: it being foam, does it soak up epoxy at twice the rate that closed-cell honeycomb or the like would? Basically, for a new deck, should I order 6, 9 or 12 gallons of epoxy? etc?

And Sprite thanks again for the Noah's tip. New deck core for the whole boat: $76.20 + shipping. Not a bad deal, you might say. :D

Fair winds,

Jeremy

Mike Goodwin
06-27-2005, 06:17 PM
It is closed cel foam , hardly any absorbtion at all.

ElBeethoven
06-29-2005, 04:23 PM
So I have yet another question (BIG surprise there):

On #120, the core in coachroof over the v-berth is SHOT on the starboard side, the ENTIRE starboard side, including down and around the portlight. Or at least, the vertical walls around the portlight are compressible if there is, in fact, no core there. I have reread this entire thread, the more recent thread about recore we had going, searched the web, read the articles suggested, scanned my books, etc., and I cannot find ANYTHING about what to do if the VERTICAL faces of the coachroof are soft.

So what IS in the vertical walls? How would one go about repairing it if it IS rotten? Fill it with epoxy a little at a time? Without slicing off the whole coachroof, how could one be certain that bottom "joint" is void-free where new core (or whatever) meets the deck?

Anybody?

P.S. At least it was "encouraging" to find several cases of coachroof recore from the OUTSIDE, as I had planned on going in from the cabin. I've definitely changed my mind on that one. :-)

ebb
06-29-2005, 04:54 PM
Vertical sides are hollow. Check out what the rebuilders are doing.

Bill
06-29-2005, 10:43 PM
See the first post in this thread. It has a link to Bill Sandifer's article on recoring an Ariel -- including the coachroof. And, more info on deck recoring.

mrgnstrn
06-30-2005, 08:00 AM
...ElBeethoven....please clarify where the problem is....

are the vertical faces you worry about the ones in the "saloon", the main interior space with the non-moving ports/windows?

or the vertical faces you can see/touch in the forward cabin / forepeak?

if the former....then don't worry so much...you are compressing the cabin liner into the deck structure. There is nothing between them...because the cabin liner is supposed to be cosmetic, really. This is not true forward of the mast in the forward cabin. No liner in there, just the "other side" of the deck.

Bill
06-30-2005, 09:21 AM
Deck delamination, deck core problems & A-120 core problem threads are merged. If you have only read the latest thread, please read the first posts for more information. Doing so will likely answer more questions.

Just a reminder: Always search for your subject before starting another thread . . . :)

ElBeethoven
07-01-2005, 07:22 AM
Tim Lackey had this to say when I emailed him. It pretty much takes care of my question:

The sides of the cabin trunk are not truly hollow. What you have is a solid structural laminate, running from somewhere in the rounded curve at the top edge (where it transitions to the coachroof) down to the sidedeck level. There is an interior liner made of very thin and flimsy fiberglass that has no structural relevance at all; it is for appearance only. There is generally a variable amount of space between the two, which may lead to the impression that it is hollow. Generally, it's not necessary to do anything to the cabin sides, but if you have severe movment as a result of a horribly deteriorated coachroof, you may need to perform repairs.

The exact situation you have, coupled with your skills and what sort of access you can gain to the area from inside or out, will dictate your repair method. If you needed to repair the sides of the trunk, it would be easy, but you might have to compromise the interior liner to gain proper access. That's the problem with molded liners: they block access for the repairs that most boats eventually need. I think it would be too much work for dubious gain to try and open and then patch the liner, which is no great shakes to begin with, so if you did need to go this route, I'd suggest considering some other sort of interior covering that pleased your sense of aesthetics.

Recoring is messy and time-consuming, but is not technically difficult. Just remember that the whole point is to bond the new core WELL to both bottom and top skins (that is, no voids and firmly affixed), and to prevent the possibility of any water getting into the core again, even with a non-organic core material. Solid laminate in way of deck hardware and openings, and around all fastener locations is the best way to go. At a minimum, be sure to overbore and refill (with epoxy) boltholes when installing hardware. The hardest part of the job is creating the fair and smooth surface at the end that you need for a fine finish.

Good luck! It's a great learning process.

Tim

ebb
07-01-2005, 08:32 AM
Thanks to Tim for being so patient and generous.

However, in different forms and differing personalities The SEARCH button on top of this page would have, with a bit of patience, gotten A/C pertinent information on the subject.

ElBeethoven
07-02-2005, 09:56 AM
With all due respect, I have spent innumerable hours pouring over this website for the last several months gleaning and searching for every piece of information I could about the Ariel in general, and NOWHERE have I personally found any information regarding the sides of the coachroof, their structural composition, if they may need reinforcing or how one would go about attacking such a project. Additionally, my manual arrived yesterday, and I am very much looking forward to digesting it in toto and searching through it for any information regarding the above question I had. In my first cursory review, I have already identified several additional projects which have been placed on my ever-growing To-Do List. :)

As I mentioned, Tim's kind reply addressed my specific issue, so I consider the matter closed, and again I would like to thank everyone that has replied to my many other inquiries. The information from this board's members has already saved me well over $1000 and countless of hours of future frustration.

Fair winds,

Jeremy

Sprite
07-05-2005, 02:01 PM
It is solid laid up glass where the port and starboard windows are in the vberth and main cabin except for where the companion door is, that part of the cabin is a sandwich of glass plywood glass. I found out when I took out a knot meter that had seen better days.


Hope this helps

John :)

Sprite
07-05-2005, 02:03 PM
Oh I forgot it is definitely laid up glass because I saw it taking out my windows

John :eek:

natalie e.
07-27-2005, 09:39 PM
Now that I am on the right page I am on to my next project of removing the two decks on each side of the cabin from the chain plates back almost to the winches. I have read the good old boat article attached to this forum and understand cutting away the top fiberglass skin to reuse then removing the old core. I did not understand cutting and laying in the new core in 3" strips, shouldn't the new core be layed in whole on top of the epoxy mesh. Also any idea of the thickness of core (marine plywood)? I am contemplateing removing the foredecks also, they are not as mushey but are giving way.
Thanks in advance for all your help. I will show pics of my motor city girl as I continue my dream.

epiphany
07-28-2005, 07:19 AM
Hi Natalie -

Congrats on living your dream! I am too. :D

3" strips would make handling the core as you lay it in easier, I'd think., but you don't *have to* do it that way. If you made sure to get resin/glass between the strips as you laid them in, it would also significantly increase the strength of the deck (think lots of I-beams, 3" apart, under the top skin, if you did it that way).

Looking forward to seeing some pictures. :)

Mike Goodwin
07-28-2005, 01:59 PM
Marine or any ply is almost the worst core you can choose . Use a closed cell foam and join the 21st century .

natalie e.
07-28-2005, 02:05 PM
thanks for your replys. Do you know where to find this 21st century core and any idea of the thickness I would need??.

Bill
07-28-2005, 03:05 PM
There is a thread on this. Please use the search button.

mbd
10-24-2005, 05:32 PM
Hey guys, any of you that have recently redone your decks - I'm curious how it went. What worked, what didn't. Do's and don't do's and how to's? Materials that worked well and didn't? Tools, etc. Pictures pictures pictures!

I know this recore stuff is nothing for the pros here on the board, but having never worked with epoxy... :rolleyes:

ElBeethoven
10-27-2005, 10:44 AM
Mike:

I put a complete new deck and cabin top core on 220 the first week of August (not recommended) and while living aboard (VERY not recommended). It's not hard at all; it's just really, really disgusting. But if a bonehead like me can do it, anyone can.

I used a 1:1 epoxy recommended by Mike Goodwin of this site and was thrilled with it. It has a working life of around an hour at 70 degrees Fahrenheit, which for a novice like me was great. It is non-blushing and far cheaper than any other brand I could find after months of research. You can order it from www.fgci.com. I ordered six gallons total, and I still have some left.

For a core, I used Corecel which was recommended by both Mike Goodwin and "Sprite," also of this forum. I got six "remaindered" sheets on sale from Noah's Marine for $77 + $20 shipping, and I still have some left over. Given that it's closed-cell, it absorbs practically no epoxy. I was very happy with the way it sanded, how easily it cut, and the stiffness of the deck. The latter I tested after laying down a double-layer scarf joint and jumping up and down on it as hard as I could. I'm kinda small at 125lbs, but it didn't even flex. It's SOLID. The scarf joints I did with 2- and 4-inch 8.5oz FG tape from Jamestown Distr. It wets out very easily and is easy to work with.

The only "problem" I had was re-attaching the first piece of deck skin. I found that a peanut butter consistency epoxy was too thick as I could not physically put enough weight on the panel to get it back to its original level. I reduced the amount of silica after that and had no further problems.

I cut the deck skin off with a FG cutting blade on a DeWalt cutter/grinder. Worked like a charm.

I didn't take any pictures, because I don't have a digicam and there are a bunch of photos posted all over the web about recoring. All balsa looks the same when rotten. :)

Tips: 1) go ahead and buy a 10-lb bag of colloidal silica. It's the cheapest way to go, and you'll eventually use the rest on other projects. But find a place locally to buy it. It ships as "oversized," so that adds another $40 to the price if you buy it online. 2) In addition to good epoxy, FGCI has the best prices on 3M 5200 and 4200, latex gloves, tyvek suits, etc.

So that's what I did, and may I never have to do it again!

Jeremy

mbd
10-27-2005, 10:52 AM
Perfect Jeremy! Thanks so much, and congrats to make it to "that end" of this project!

So I assume you faired, sanded, and repainted your rock-solid decks? sure would love to see some pics! :p

Sprite
11-12-2005, 12:40 PM
I have run into the same problem with Sprite. My deck forward of the cockpit
needs replacement. The deck is like walking a tuna sandwich. The measurement of the thickness is 3/8 of an inch. This translates into roughly 9mm give or take. It is consistant through out the deck. I am using corecell because epoxy bonds to it better and it was designed with the yachting industry in mind plus it can take 200 pounds per square inch.

You can find it at Noah's
they are running a sale of A500 Blue Plain

John :)

mbd
11-16-2005, 10:53 AM
I called Noah's Marine last week and asked about Corecell and what they recommended. I just ordered 6 sheets of CoreCell A500 (B) 9MM PL 23"x48" for $73.14, so that must be close to the same stuff Jeremy used.

Sprite
11-25-2005, 11:37 AM
You can buy

by the gallons exact gelcoat and anti skids from spectre or spector products.
They are located in Florida and Washington state. They have anti skid patterns
for Pearson Boston Whaler with the correct color for gelcoat. They have a catalog. If you are looking for an anti skid pattern another place was treadmaster and they are based out of England they were in Good Old Boat
Their stuff is cool.


John :D

mbd
03-22-2006, 08:40 AM
- from Noah's Boat Building Forum Admin in reply to someone's query about materials for a recore:
Foam core (Corecell) will not be affected by water, and installation is about the same (as balsa). One disadvantage is, unlike balsa, foam does not have good compressive strength so it will be necessary to insert plywood under winches etc.Oy. I guess it goes without saying then that I should pre-plan where all my deck hardware will be re-installed and put something more solid in those locations? Lay-up with fiberglass or use solid epoxy or what?

ebb
03-22-2006, 09:13 AM
We obviously have the experts here.

But here's my thought, since I've been messing with the deck on 338.
I'd have to know where all the fittings are going,
and as I don't really really know exactly,
I would proceed with the core and deck lamination and then when it got to placing the fittings, do the oversized holes*, fill with epoxy mush and redrill for exactly where the fitting goes - with a substantial backup plate. It's would be a pain to cut all those pieces of matt and buildup squares of solid glass everywhere in the recore. Yes?
I really like maranti marine plywood, think it's good to bed in epoxy as a backer, and seal with epoxy too.

Some places, like under the mast, I would argue that solid core is best, no foam. :D

* the divinyl-cell foam I use is closedcell and very non-compressable - so one may not have to clean out holes with a bent nail and fill with epoxy and redrill for a fitting. This is after all the balsa core fix.
But I'd argue that it makes a completely rigid installation of a fitting that way. Because the bolts cannot in any way compress anything. For Instance the lever bending force that can happen with a stanchion base.

commanderpete
03-23-2006, 10:40 AM
Interesting. I wonder what the specs are for different core materials.

Might be more of a concern on a larger boat with higher loads.

I agree with ebb. Epoxy plugs would give you pillars of strength.

mbd
03-23-2006, 10:49 AM
I suppose I'll have at least a general idea of the location of cleats, stanchions and other hardware and can "block out" a nice sized square for solid material between the skins. But what would that be? Expoxy plus micro balloons, coloidial silica (sp?), cloth fibers, wetted out fiberglass ??? :confused:

...
OK, I seemed to remember Mike G's response to "mix-ins" for epoxy and found it in Post #131 (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=9789&postcount=131) of this thread: Thanks Mike. (Still waiting on that DVD to come out.) :D

ebb
03-23-2006, 01:33 PM
When you get over to the sheer there is some shaping of the core to do. Why not go with one o Mike's Mixes and trowel in your solids? And fair at the same time. Cabosil with 1/4" or 1/2" chopped strand would be plenty strong. even stronger if you also used flox. Wouldn't have to make squares, eg for the stanshion bases they could be half rounds. Long strips of matt for the track bolts.... etc.
Personally I'm believes in mat and cloth for unadulterated strength and you still could level things up with any mix (not micro balloons in the composite) so your top layer goes on smooth.

mbd
03-23-2006, 08:27 PM
OK. That seems like a good idea Ebb. More $$ epoxy $$ however. I'm sure I'll eventually get to some sort of solution once I'm in the thick of it, so to speak.

Back to the core material. I felt like I took three steps backwards today after seeing that post about the compressive strength, or lack of it with Corecell. I found the following tables on Noah's web site...

Corecell:

mbd
03-23-2006, 08:28 PM
And Divinycell:

mbd
03-23-2006, 08:39 PM
I don't even begin to pretend I know what I'm talking about, but I am on the A500 Column for the Corecell (and others earlier in this thread). It looks to be roughly comparable to the "H 60" in the compressive strength and modulous column ... but, I think the roughly equivalent thickness for Divinicell is the "H 80", which would make Divinycell a bit more resistent to compression, no?? Is that what you're using Ebb?

In any event, I did feel better about my purchase, if not more confused, after re-rereading about the materials. It certainly seems like it will be easy enough to get hard spots under the key areas. Now if it'll warm up so I can just do it already...

ebb
03-23-2006, 09:44 PM
Holy Haddock, Mike, those number charts scare me. I pick up my foam, when I'm playing hookie, down in Santa Cruz. Fiberglass Hawaii - 1037 17th Av - 831-476-7464. But their sites are down so you can go to Monterey Bay Fiberglass (where northern California surf-boards began!)
www.fiberglasssupply.com
509-493-3464.
They all know each other and ever since clark foam committed harikari, they is all in bed together too. You know they make surfboards out of coffecups, right? So they must have that pvc foam around for integrity. It can be used with polyester or epoxy. They don't have it in 'blanks' but in sheet thicknesses like 1/2".

ASTM numbers, hmmmm: The American Society for Testing and Materials, we know from metal grades - didn't know they did foam! A good thing too!

I personally use the thumb test when the help in the store isn't looking. But, you're right, it is H80 or H100 at Monterey Fiberglass and it's probably what I get in S.C. Amazing stuff - it only looks like foam - doesn't act like foam - you can sand it to a feather edge and it still holds together! You could take a piece of it on the floor and stand on it, it's stiff and firm. Of course you could crack off a corner, or stomp dents in it, and when you cut it you use a knife....but when you work with it you know it's high end stuff!

Has an European patent, has to be imported, unbelievably expensive. Goodwin knows where to get it cheaper than anybody in the country. Airex, the too expensive closed cell foam used for matresses and cushions is the same basic stuff as the deck core. Epoxy loves it, you'll end up with a deck like a Nautor-Swan's.

Compressive strength, you say? Don't know how you compare foams, or what you compare compressive strength of foam to? But the strength of the composite deck is in the skins, not in the foam. It's the inner and outer layers that do 95% (made that up) of the tensioning and compressing. The foam keeps them a constant distance apart. My impression is that if you had an inch of foam between the skins, the deck would be even stronger. Not because of the foam but because the skins are further apart. A tube is stiffer than a rod. But because the meat in the sandwich is such incredible material it makes an incredible deck.

Didn't Mike Goodwin do his Ariel recoring with vinylester?

Mike, if I was doing it, I'd use Baltec (Defender). What the hell, now we know how to protect it. It also made an incredible deck. lasting 40 years of abuse, and it's probably cheaper than the corporate giant's dragon froth. And it's WOOD. A treat!
Who you making that too tech deck for, anyhow? Your great, great, great grand kids? :confused: :D

mbd
03-24-2006, 05:31 AM
...go to Monterey Bay Fiberglass (where northern California surf-boards began!) www.fiberglasssupply.com
...Didn't Mike Goodwin do his Ariel recoring with vinylester?
...Who you making that too tech deck for, anyhow? Your great, great, great grand kids? :confused:

After you mentioned you use Divinycell, I Googled it and came up with the www.fiberglasssupply.com website and noticed they do not have Corecell listed as a core material... :eek:

So, I Googled Corecell. After some reading the cold sweats subsided.

Here's Mike G's Recore (http://pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=1079&postcount=15) material and pics from earlier in this thread. (Sheesh, all this circular linking back to earlier posts is making me dizzy! Resembles how my brain feels.)

Anyway, thanks, as always for the input. How many times can we rehash what's been rehashed, right? Kind of like chewing cud I suppose - I'll have to ask a cow.

Time to put up and shut-up. As CPete has said, when I screw it up, I can always sand it down and do it again, right? :rolleyes:

ebb
03-24-2006, 08:15 AM
Mike, We have here some of the greatest posts/threads on the face of the internet! Certainly trust Mike G's get the job done atitude and methods. He's also done it a hundred times more than you or me. When you have a master like that, see how it's done, you can do your own improvisations, make it your own or add to the music.

Could treat it like watch making, make a cad drawing for your every move.
Or take up the scalpel and draw blood. Or tuna fish, as Mike called it.

Run into a problem, post it here. Lots of opinions to choose from. Some with experience to back it up. There's enough words, pictures and links on this forum to make a text book on recoring. More points made the better. Right, maybe too many choices!

It's a noble project to do for the ole gal. Really is. Fantastic! :D

mbd
04-07-2006, 05:55 AM
Here's a real nice restoration job on a CD Typhoon. Good recore pics too... Miranda (http://www.campavalon.cc/miranda/ty2.html)

c_amos
06-21-2006, 06:12 AM
[steps into the confessional]

"Forgive me brothers for I have sinned..... I have ignored that small soft spot on the starboard side for months now....."

I read this thread yesterday, went to the boat with the circular saw set to 3/8" and ripped a 2' / 18" gash in the starboard foredeck. Was very pleased to find that I had a great deal of difficulty removing the 'lid' for both ends of the cut.

Now, Herb Tucker (prior Capt. of 226) had recored the port side with dynacell, and appears to have done a nice job. The reason I am posting is to mention one problem I came across while doing the pre-op sanding of the deck.

The seams where the original skins had been grafted together were a stress point, and had cracked...... the crack was not very visable untill I removed material around it.

A couple of 'plug tests' with a 1/4" drill bit show wet core next to the seam where he ended his repair.

I am thinking I am going to lay a section of light roving over the seams when I finish the repair I am working on now, and then probably do the same on the old repair.

Any ideas on how to get the remaining balsa core dry where it has become wet?

Mike Goodwin
06-21-2006, 08:18 AM
Scrape it out and let it sit in the sun while you put a better core back in .

If it is balsa and wet , you don't want it around .
Cover the seams of the repairs with Dynel strips, stronger and more flexable than glass.

eric (deceased)
06-23-2006, 03:55 AM
I need input.I never did any type of recoring.there was very minimal oil canning on the deck of the ariel I had. it was so little that I never took in mind to do such a repair----that was and is beyond the rainge of my capabilities.however as a prospective future second ariel owner I am owning up to the fact that this repair will be inevitable.I have quickly checked thru this 12 pages so far thread---but dont have the time to read it all----tell me---has any one ever replaced the wood core with only multiple layers of polyester type cloth and resin---- :confused:

Mike Goodwin
06-23-2006, 04:33 AM
Yep, costs more, but it takes longer to do.
Another bonus, it adds considerable weight to the fore deck, up high to counteract that heavy nasty keel .

Why poly cloth & epoxy and not glass & vinylester resin? Either way , a core is cheaper and easier to do .

ebb
06-23-2006, 05:10 AM
Imco small areas like under stanchion bases that have gone bad would be great to cut open and filled with frp. Would be easier as the core transitions to solid laminate near the toe rail.

A whole deck repaired with a 1/2" thick buildup (approximate thickness of the balsa core) of frp would end up adding much too much weight to the boat. Replacing balsa with pvc foam is probably the way to go when recoring as it is arguably easier than building up layer after layer of fabric and plastic. Easier to sand and shape than the grinding on solid frp you'd probably end up doing. When recoring with foam you can use prefered epoxy rather than polyester which you may have to choose because of the many gallons you'd need.
338 had the core replaced with solid glass under the mast. But this area is only a couple square feet.
Composite decks are extremely strong and stiff for their weight, stronger and stiffer than solid, even more so in our case with the strong camber the Ariel foredeck has.
There isn't anything mysterious about using foam in doing a recore. What's mysterious is why it's so damn expensive. Less expensive endgrain balsa is still available.
Imco if balsa is protected (as it should have been by the manufacturer) it'll last forever. There are Ariels that after 40 years have not needed their decks repaired. Balsa is just fine for a whole deck recore that could last another 4 decades.

mbd
08-05-2006, 11:20 AM
OK, so I'm grinding this AM - phase 2. Last week I ground the upper skins for the starboard side deck and the lower inner skin, then wiped it down with a generous amount of acetone thinking I was ready to epoxy.

This moring, I went out to give it another good grind just to make sure I had enough of the old junk off, and found the old patches of resin remaining had a kind of fluorescent green hue to them, kind of like they were wet. As I ground away at the old glass, this little brownish spot started sort of bubbling up rather than being ground away. Turns out, it's rubbery, like uncured resin or something.

mbd
08-05-2006, 11:26 AM
Here it is after cutting some of it away. Not sure how extensive it is, but it seems to run underneath all the old glass - at least in this area. Could the acetone have broken down or compromised the old resin in some way?

I'm guessing the matt looking stuff is the cabin liner?

But the real question is, can I lay the epoxy and new core over this, or should I remove ALL this stuff - everywhere??? :eek:

bill@ariel231
08-05-2006, 03:09 PM
Mike

It looks like the head liner to me. A-231's original inner skins were alternating layers of 6oz cloth & 24oz mat. You may be able to tell for sure if that spot looks translucent from the inside on a bright day ( or what the heck, drill a 1/8th" hole it can't hurt at this point)...

when you glue up the new core, don't forget to support the inner skin in position with some sort of structure or the core may sag while you and the core are supported by just the inner skin. Not a real problem on my boat, as the side decks are small and I was careful where I stepped. one of my friends needed to take a skill saw to the deck of his boat and start again after a first attempt to core the deck left him with what looked like sea-state 2 topsides.

don't worry, it gets easier from here....

Bill

ebb
08-31-2006, 06:54 AM
Mike,
Are you continuing with the recore.
More pics would be great!

Doubt that acetone would break any old frp down. Tho it might loosen things up if there already was some kind of deterioration. For yerself, breath as little of it as possible. If you can smell it, you're breathing it.

That's the reason to stay away from polyester: acetone and styrene.

There has been discussion about using solvents to clean up work. Concensus is that solvents can invade work and lurk in pores and screw up the mechanical bond between plastics. Even extreme volatiles like acetone.

{338 just had a puzzling epoxy to deck failure. I decide to fill in the depressions along the deck outside the coamings. It seemed pretty easy, tho arguably a waste of epoxy. The strip of decks have been sanded and cleaned off and on - the gelcoat anti-skid long gone, subsequent sanding showing a little of the glass in spots. As I do I scoured the hell out of the decks, dedusted by dry wiping and brushed on a coating of plain epoxy, the same laminating (runny) epoxy I always use. Then wiped off any runny stuff, mixed up some silica, milled glass, epoxy into a spreadable gel. I scrubbed in the gel first with a brush, and then bladed on a fairing layer of the goop.

Came back two day later epecting to scuff-sand and apply 407. It somehow didn't look right, so a 1" utility chisel came to hand

and, it took some work, but all it came off as if it was sugar candy. Pieces like broken peanut brittle. The pieces had the 36 grit scoring of the deck reproduced on the underside. NOTHING HAD STUCK. The deck in front and behind had hibuild epoxy primer on it (plenty of gelcoat still on the deck), no problem not sticking that I can see.}

Any ideas? :confused:

mbd
09-03-2006, 07:02 PM
when you glue up the new core, don't forget to support the inner skin in position with some sort of structure or the core may sag while you and the core are supported by just the inner skin.Thanks for the input Bill. I'm not too worried about the side decks since I have staging set up next to the boat. Still wondering if I can get away with the staging and small panels on the foredeck without supports. I still need to do some exploration to see how extensive that piece will be.


one of my friends needed to take a skill saw to the deck of his boat and start again after a first attempt to core the deck left him with what looked like sea-state 2 topsides.Bummer! I feel his pain, though I must say, I got off much easier, albeit with a healthier dose of humility. :o


Any ideas?Since no one else has chirped in, I'm maybe good for some questions. Is there a contaminant that will make epoxy not stick? Like wax or silicone? What do you use when you create a mold to keep it ffrom sticking? Any chance some contaminants could have been introduced in either of your mixes that could keep the batch from adhering? (Where's Mike Goodwin when you need him?)

Theis
09-04-2006, 12:59 PM
Yes, there is. You can use Vasoline. I have also used wax paper. The glas sort of sticks to the wax paper, but the wax paper doesn't stick to the second surface. You can also buy a bottle of stuff the pros use from West (the Glass people, not West Marine, although West Marine carries it) It is a liquid that you brush on and it works very well to prevent adhesion.

ebb
09-04-2006, 04:07 PM
someone did open my work cabinet at the boat and take my 407. Maybe they sprayed some release agent on the deck too. You never know what this world's coming to! ;)

Mike Goodwin
09-07-2006, 07:59 AM
Since no one else has chirped in, I'm maybe good for some questions. Is there a contaminant that will make epoxy not stick? Like wax or silicone? What do you use when you create a mold to keep it ffrom sticking? Any chance some contaminants could have been introduced in either of your mixes that could keep the batch from adhering? (Where's Mike Goodwin when you need him?)

Been sick, recuring "jungle fever" from my days of 'wearing of the green' and we ain't talking Irish here , anyway fever is gone and I can stay awake for more than 2 hours now.

Yes, silicone and epoxy do not mix , also wax , and the epoxy itself can blush and cause it not to adhere. When making a mold, you use a mold release agent , which is a wax and/or a latex liquid release agent or parting agent .

Hint, don't wipe down with acetone, use pure white vinegar then denatured alcohol , I have seen acetone 'soften' resins . Or use Prepsol or a mix made for glass prepping . And use a hell of a lot of rags , if you see something on the rag , it is contaminated, CHANGE IT ! or you are just spreading it around .

ebb
09-07-2006, 11:13 PM
Think I'm gonna find a Pettit or Epifanes fiberglass prep cleaner to wipe down the deck befor epoxying again. Probably has acetone as one of the ingredients - could be that's what the etch part of the recipe is. The only place 40 year old wax could lurk on the deck would be IN the gelcoat. Therefor it is now dust.

There has been some work inside that doesn't seem stuck too good -a fillet piece that came out too easy - an end of a piece of matt tabbing that lifted too easy off old well sanded polyester. The inside of the boat could easily have wax laden surfaces. In 338 I hardly know anymore what layer we're at, besides 80% of the interior was painted (99% gone now), I would assume the Pearson paint wasn't sprayed over a waxy finish coat. The paint would be a good oxygen inhibitor. But, there might have been any number of scenarios installing the interior in 1966. Wax lurks inside the Ariel.

Will wipe both cockpit side decks down with solvent even tho the removal of the gelcoat would make it unnecessary. Also, There are various ages of part A around the boat, so it may somehow be 'old' epoxy that failed - but I find that pretty far fetched. I will use 'old' stuff ((the usual laminating epoxy I've always used)) on one side and new part A & B on the other and report back.

It's a warning.
Mentioned the failure partly to warn others and partly to confirm that I'm not the first (exploring the internet) to have the problem when remodeling. I've filled and made other repairs on deck with the same epoxy and fillers with no obvious sticking problem. Usually ignoring the gelcoat. Most of the deck has the high-build primer on it now I've been using - looks like it sticks real good.

Balsa core ends at the cabin. Deck is a complicated lamination. Could be when it was upside down in the female mold at the factory it had some strange things happening to it. Was the gelcoat sprayed over the whole mold without problems? The deck thickens at the end of the core at the cockpit. I believe, from porus holes in the plastic seen after gelcoat removal that that is a sign of heat build-up in the original work. Could that heat have fried the gelcoat? Maybe a few hot polyester pots got mixed up! Can't know, it's just, it's just, what did I do? Could I have screwed up my epoxy proportions? Yeah! Nah! Stuff set up jist fine, it jist didn't get close enough to what it was supposed to stick to. :o

Mike Goodwin
09-08-2006, 08:29 AM
Silicon spray used to loosen a bolt or lube a track , silicon caulk around a leaking chain plate , silicon enriched paint sanded off and lots of airborne contaminates can be lurking about.
Could come off your clothes or from a leaking implant under a bikini.
A friend of mine had a custom body shop . He required everyone to wear Tyvek suits in the paint booth and all silicon had to be kept in the mechanical shop . With what he charged for a paint job , it better be perfect.

ebb
09-08-2006, 09:17 AM
Silicone was used everywhere on 338: under the c'way trim, coamings and rails. All metal fittings were mounted with silicone. Couldn't believe the windows. Could be on the deck. Why spray it on the deck? Mike, great observation that sanding dust itself could be a contaminate! One assumes silicone migration into a surface only occures when wet, befor cure. Yet work procedures could easily produce the same effect. Could also assume that coating breakdown, age, sun, water could leech little silicone buggers into surfaces.

Silicone spray must be illegal.

Like at the Shuttle: "Zay Burkhard, use plenty of zillicon zpray on doz rusty release pins and on doz tiles, zo dey don't burn up on reentry - keep it away from da foam tho...."

__________________________________________________ _____________________________________
There are thousands of epoxy, silicon alkyd, and acrylic urethane inorganic coatings made with silicone that have better resistance to degradation from heat, UV, etc than older paints. Silicon and teflon are beginning to appear in bottom paints. Marine paints like Pettit's Easypoxy are "improved with silicone." The Navy is interested in the slick bottom paints as well as coatings with "low surface energy" for steel that will prevent ice from sticking.
It's possible that any industrial, surplus or marine paint could be used by now on an Ariel. And possible that any one of these paints could contribute 'silicone migration into the substrate.' Into the gelcoat.
My attempt at humor above is actually true. Columbia tiles are ultra engineered esotetric ceramics that are "10% fiber and 90% air." The tiles are coated with silicon paint, glued to a "fabric", which is in turn glued to the aluminum hull of the space utility vehicle. ;)
Better write NASA to tell them why their tiles are falling off, right?

c_amos
11-26-2006, 04:41 PM
Having tackled the starboard side earlier this year, I went into the port side today.

It was not to have been too bad of a job, as most of the foredeck core had been replaced by the prior owner (Herb Tucker) and his dad about 5 years ago. Apparently they had found some good balsa along the plywood strip that runs down the center of the deck, but unfortunately it has since found water and now fails the old 'acoustic coin tap test'.

So I set the circular saw to 1/4" and ripped down the center of the deck, a couple inches on either side of the strip of core that sounded soft.

The bond on the plywood strip was good, but I was surprised... no amazed, to find that there was very little bond at all to the closed cell foam!


I could see the edges of the air bubble that had apparently formed when the old skins were refitted.

Both Tim, and Mike caution against allowing any bubbles to remain under the skins if they are re-used.... I experienced problems on the starboard side where the old skin had been reused and the seam had allowed a minor leak.

I did not re-use the old skins when I re-repaired the starboard side, and will by no means consider re-using them when I close the port side back in. The stress point created along the seam, the possibility of bubbles (voids), and the less reliable bond between the old skin (that once was lined with rotten balsa core) argue against re-using the old pieces in my mind. More then any theory, the main reason I will not re-use them is that I believe they have contributed to my having to re-visit this job that the prior owner had done before me.

I sure hope this is the last of the balsa left in this deck........ :o


also


Ebb said;

Silicone spray must be illegal.

Amen....

ebb
11-26-2006, 05:56 PM
Hmmmmm,
Craig, have to look at that deck first hand. But sitting here it looks like not enuf thickened epoxy(?) was used in the recore. It probably was done all at once, the foam buttered, put in place, and then the lids put back on.
Any 'hurry-up' might have been the culprit.

It's a good idea in going with mat andor cloth on top of the foam. It definitely will be solid, even if you do the foam and later come back to do the top after the epoxy has set. If you are using non-blush, I believe you can expect a total bond two or three days later. Give you time to shape or add more foam.

The cut off lids, the original deck pieces, tho, have a number of layers of fabric in them that you will have to duplicate - to get the deck up to its original thickness and spec strength. 3, 4, 5 cloth pieces, depending on what you're using - and the epoxy. Was thinking that drilling a number of small holes in the pieces would help in the air-bubble-void department. You'd put enough pressure on them when reinstalling that the epoxy gel squeezes up into the holes as an indicator. Relieves the pressure too.

I would use just enuf thickner to gel the epoxy. Wet and loose. That may have been what happened with the recore you ran into. If there were other voids, the epoxy could have flowed and settled into those and left those spaces under the tops after they were squeezed into place. One hopes that plain unscored foam was used. (Small drilled holes could be introduced into the foam to make sure a bubble isn't captured under a piece of foam.)

The foam, if it is pvc, should make an excellent bond with epoxy.

If there is any lingering question about the strength of the new patchwork deck, a layer of cloth overall might give the job plenty integrity. Give us a look!

c_amos
11-26-2006, 07:33 PM
Yur crystal ball seems to be working well tonight Ebb.


But sitting here it looks like not enuf thickened epoxy(?) was used in the recore.

What I intended to include but did not was that the epoxy that I can see on the edges of the voids does not appear to have much kind of thickening in it (pretty hard). Ironic, when I had asked Mike if he had misspoken when he talked about using thickened epoxy for this earlier in this thread (several months ago). Little did I know the question had so much to do with the repair the prior owner had done on my boat!

Anyway.... Yes. I will dry the foam core that I have exposed by removing the old skin, and cover it with several layers of mat. That is what I did on the Starboard side, and was able to match the deck pretty darn close (I can't see a difference).

The skin was not very thick (neither what I pulled off of the prior 'repair' or what I removed from the other side). Maybe an eighth at best, probably less then that. I used several layers of mat, and left the surrounding glass slightly proud. I then used a mix of west 405 and 407 filler thickened epoxy (still using up that darn west I bought for such a bargain way back when)....

I am gonna take the bow pulput off and re-bed it while I am at this... hope I don't find any more soft stuff..... I really would like to get the project list down into the low 30's:(

ebb
11-28-2006, 10:54 AM
Craig, you know this, but for others a reminder.
A composite deck is stronger and stiffer than a solid deck would be. That may be arguable, but it certainly is far lighter.

If the foam does anything besides insuring a constant dimension of skin separation, it transfers the panel's thickness strength to the tension and compression skins. A solid spar is a lot bendier than a hollow one, as example. So the skins have to be a single unbroken unit. Even tho the inside can be honeycombed or closed cell foam the composite in total should be an unbroken unit. It seems almost that as long as there is a general separation between the skins there remains some integrity. I know of one Ariel that has been sailing with mushy decks for years without a problem. Strong skin must be the answer.;)

c_amos
12-16-2006, 08:39 PM
Update;

Ripped up all the unbonded skin I could find and laid in new mat (several layers, different directions). Excised the 'seams' of the old repair, where the panels met and covered them with glass.


The seams where the original skins had been grafted together were a stress point, and had cracked...... the crack was not very visible until I removed material around it.

I am now more convinced that the method discussed in this thread carries the risk of future cracking along the seams. I have glassed them, and faired the repairs (lots of epoxy with fairing filler!).

I have removed all the hardware off the bow, other then the chocks (the boat is now in the slip with the lines shackled to the stem head fitting).

I plan to finish sanding tomorrow, and then lay a layer of light cloth over the top of the entire foredeck as further protection against these stress points.

I don't suggest that this is absolutely necessary, but even a solid deck is going to have some small amount of flex, and that flex is going to be felt more at any weak points you leave.... IMHO.

(OBTW, I have been using Mike's white vinegar / denatured alcohol cleaning solution... works great and easier on the skin then acetone... thanks Mike).

tha3rdman
01-24-2007, 07:10 PM
I've sifted through this and the other thread that concerns recore. I had a lengthy discussion with a distributer, and he convinced me that replacing the balsa with balsa would be the best bet. He sites the compressive and sheer strengths of balsa vs the foams, and the need to go with a extremely high density to get the identical stiffness as the previous stiffness. It could be all smoke and mirrors, but for the cost comparision . . . I'm convinced that if one properly bedded the hardware in the first place the deck would not have gone soft. It's lasted nearly 40 years, and another 40 would be A-ok.

My question is about scarfing knowing a 12:1 or 10:1 is ideal, has anyone considered using a high grit (40 or 60) sanding disk to cut through the skin leaving the scarf and cut all in one swath. Versus circular sawing then having to sand the edges to obtain the scarf.

ebb
01-25-2007, 07:26 AM
Don't know that you need to scarf anything, if you are using the word in its traditional way.

Suppose you could tilt the circular saw at 40/45 degrees to cut out the pieces so that if you are going to replace the original deck the pieces could be glued back like lids. However, the top skin of the deck is 1/8" maybe a little more if you're lucky. Any cut at any angle with a circular blade would cut more material away than the slant. IE the piece of deck/lid would be smaller than any hole you can cut. A grinder would be less accurate, unless you're thinking of using a dremel-tool.

I believe a straight 90 degree cut with a small circular saw and carbide blade set at a known depth would give you more control and accuracy. Use the grinder to vacate the tunafish - VERY careful not to grind thru the inner skin. Bedding the balsa in epoxy and epoxy gel (Epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand*) will give you a strong deck without worrying about scarfing anything.

You may end up laminating your own deck skin back on top - rather than glueing the 'lids' back on. Conceivably it is stronger and more unified to laminate new deck back on top of the new core. Because you can marry it better to the remaing deck. However, it is conceivably easier to glue the deck pieces back on because you get an instant register with the remaining deck structure.

With the 'lid' method, after they're back on and the epoxy is set, you could grind a mild dip/depression around all the seams, three or four inches wide across the seam and fill it with strips of glass cloth and epoxy. Narrower strips in the bottom, with the next layer using wider strips. You'll only get maybe two/ three layers with the top one nearly grinded off for flush. This ought to graft the new work with the old pretty good.

With all new top laminate I would feather on to remaining deck by grinding a 'slope' on it.
This is what you meant by scrafing, I think.;)
It's not much, as the deck skin is so thin -just enuf for one or two layers of six or eight oz cloth to lap onto it. But with enuf buildup to grind the join down flush. Conceivably this is the stronger method. But I think it's a toss-up.

AND I always say this:
With work like this use only 100% solids laminating epoxy. Your supplier should tell you that it is NON-blushing and has so solvents or extenders in it. A great privilege of no-blush is that it will allow you to stop work and continue later without the penalty of washing and often without prep.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
*because the deck is horizontal, you need to thicken the epoxy filler only a little, just enough to control it. It should still flow so that it fills all voids and fills the baltec as well. Butter all pieces on all sides. Prefered method is to wet down/soak all surfaces with straight epoxy first, then butter. To avoid voids: You may find that drilling (for neatness) some holes in the center of panels, or where you know you have a depression to fill, that when you press the panel in its place the extra glue has a path to squeeze out like a relief valve.

Balsa with epoxy, imco, is as good if not better than expensive pvc foam for our deck restoration. Like you say, if you isolate it from thru fastenings, etc it'll last. The above method would isolate the balsa extremely well. Epoxy is a good waterproofer - and if you urethane the deck, whatz gonna happen?? And each panel is isolated so any water migration could not be a problem in the future. Some boats like 338, knock on wood, still have good decks after all these decades. Done right, new balsa composit should last a half a century! You know, like THREE generations!!
Sorry. Hope some of this diffuse stuff is usefull.

mbd
01-25-2007, 07:37 AM
Hey 3rdman,

FWIW, I'd go with MikeG's 40+ years experience and use a foam core. My side decks are plenty stiff with the Corecell.

Agreed: properly mounted hardware etc. will keep the core dry, BUT, it's hard, nigh impossible to keep all water out 100% of the time. No telling where it'll come in, mounted hardware, port light frames, a hastily drilled fastener... It's nice knowing that no matter how badly I mount/seal my hardware, the deck core will NEVER rot again.

As to scarfing, my 2 cents. Cutting the skins first is the way to go. A lot of mine were still adhered to the core, and it would have been impossible to separate them without breaking had they been pre-scarfed. Also, a clean cut line gives you a nice reference for doing the nasty grinding for the scarf joints after the skins have been glued back on.

Doh! Capt Ebb's reply just came in. Hope I don't contradict his wisdom...

PS. Then there's Craig's post above - I'd like to have seen pics and have more detailed info on his POs recore/repair. All sorts of opinions out there...

tha3rdman
01-25-2007, 04:30 PM
Ebb & Mbd,

Thanks the balsa is in route, the price was too good to pass up, I'll make sure I designate a photographer for "in progress" pics, even if its the seven year old swabby. As for epoxy, I'm likely getting the epoxyproducts premium no blush.

I'll keep ya posted.

mbd
09-01-2007, 02:11 PM
Just to revisit this thread, here is what a section of deck looks like with a Corecell core.

ebb
09-01-2007, 04:28 PM
M'sieur, I'd like a half dozen of those with a little dijon
and a bottle of your finest grand cru red.:p