Cabin Sole Refinishing

[commanderpete]

I've decided to refinish the cabin sole on my boat. The teak veneer is a bit worn, but there seems to be enough left to work with. There are numerous drips and stains on the sole of undetermined origin.

After a good scrubbing, I'm going to use some paint remover on it to get off some stains. First using a paint scraper and then some steel wool with mineral spirits. After another cleaning, I'll try a heat gun on stubborn spots. After that I'll give it a (hopefully) light sanding.

I've been debating what product to use for the refinishing. I've considered everything from varnish to gym floor finish. I'm looking for something durable but not too slippery when wet.

I've pretty much decided on a satin polyurethane like those used on outdoor decks.

I don't think any product can solve the slippery when wet problem. I might mix some non-skid powder into the last coat.

The best non-skid would be to leave it bare teak, but I can never leave well enough alone.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

[Mike Goodwin]

I have used Gym Seal by McClosky (sp) on lots of boats , and it does not slip when wet .It also gives a great gloss . Some where there is a thread where I laminated a cabinsole in the forepeak of #45 , it is finished with Gym Seal .

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166

[commanderpete]

Nice work on that project, Mike.

I spoke to a tech guy at a manufacturer of industrial gym floor finish. He tried to discourage me from using the stuff. He said it doesn't have UV protection and would probably "amber up" over time.

I don't think the cabin sole gets much sun, and maybe McClosky's has UV protection. I might give it a try.

Google search had only a few hits. Is this stuff readily available?

http://www.mannbrothers.com/products/woodfinishes/mccloskey.htm

[Mike Goodwin]

Pete,

I have applied it on 1/2 million dollar Hinkleys , 15 years ago and no yellow has ever been reported . Buzzy has been using it longer than that and still uses it . Now it is for interior use only , but think about it , gyms have windows too .

Mike

[Scott Galloway]

My cabin sole was a paint-splattered mess, and somewhat worn and chipped also. I sanded it, and applied two coats of teak oil in the fall of 2001. It looks great, isn't slippery, and has a rich appearance that hides the remaining dings better than would a hard glossy finish. It was cheap, quick, and after the smell dissipated, I decided that I liked it. Then again, after stripping and repainting the complete interior, I was paint splattered, worn and chipped also. Compared to me, the cabin sole looked pretty good. Still does. :)

[commanderpete]

This is how my cabin sole looked after a good scrubbing.

Ugh

[commanderpete]

I started with a chemical onslaught of teak cleaner and Goof-Off. Then multiple applications of paint/varnish stripper scrubbed off with steel wool and mineral spirits.

What remained were some die-hard elements consisting of epoxy drips, a melted plastic bag, and who knows what else.

[commanderpete]

I went after the spots with a real sharp pull scraper and sanding blocks. Finished with a two part teak cleaner and brightener. Gave it a final sanding and declared victory.

[commanderpete]

The teak veneer has grooves molded into it, to give the appearance of laid teak planks. I wanted to accentuate that look, and also cover some goop that was lodged in the grooves and is too hard to clean out.

I took a brown Sharpie magic marker and ran it down each of the grooves.

[commanderpete]

I'm starting to finish it now with McCloskey's Gymseal, as Mike suggested. Pictures to follow.

[commanderpete]

I never did post a followup shot.

The Gymseal works well. Good traction wet or dry.

I've also heard of another product called "Ultimate Sole"

[ebb]

In a word:
Absolutely gorgeous!

[skylark]

It's actually a Valspar product. Here's the url to find dealers.

http://www.valspar.com/val/resident/gymseal.jsp

Fred

[Howard]

Thanks for the link. I am into the sanding part on the floor and saw this thread. PO had some carpet down throughout. Great tip about the Sharpie marker too, that looks nice.

[Al Lorman]

Ultimate Sole (www.ultimatesole.com) seems to be the latest favored cabin sole finish. I've used it with considerable success and I'm not very good at varnishing. Those parts of my cabin sole which I removed and refinished at home are stunning. For some reason, the results were not as good when done in situ. If you decide to go the Ultimate Sole route, here are two tips: the "waterless cleaner" is naptha and a lot cheaper when purchased as such, and the sealer is the regular finish diluted 50 percent. If you have problems and call the company, you'll probably talk to the guy who invented it.

Al

[ebb]

Al,
Thanks for the 'Ultimate Sole' link.
I like the idea of supporting small business whenever possible.
In an age where international supergiant retailers swing on Wall Street and change peoples lives, life styles, and values, going with small entrepreneurial enterprises helps to keep it local and real. Using the internet it's all an illusion but it feels better to me.

The coating is a relatively low VOC urethane, I couldn't find any solids vs solvents percentages. Didn't wade thru the application guidelines but ease of maintenance (another coat later, shelf life, etc.) would be on the list. Not committing an expensive brush to applying it is also a big plus.

Ulimate Marine has a '15pc Nesting Stainless Cookware' set for $100, plus shipping. "All fits in a cubic foot." And a '13 cup s.s. Airpot' for $70. You hear of these insulated
pump flask dispensers used aboard small sailboats because you can keep water or drinks hot for hours wthout firing up the stove. Don't know if the price is right? Anybody buying their sweet marina babe a present this year
let us know what you think of the stuff.

In 338, when I get deep into her sole I'll go with the Ulimate.

[Al Lorman]

Ebb:

I had an interesting experience at the Annapolis Boat Show this year which is a neat riff on your comments about supporting small business and the Internet. As a satisfied Utimate Sole user, I stopped to chat with one of the men at the Ultimate Sole booth and he turned out to be one of the owners (but not the technical guy). When I introduced myself, he asked me if I had a Sabre. I said that I used to, but no longer. He told me that he owns a Sabre and remembered my name from my posts on the Sabre bulletin board (which I still belong to). So, courtesy of the Internet, I had bought something from someone who knew of my existence.

Al

[commanderpete]

If I had to do it over again, I would have sealed the side edges of the cabin sole with epoxy.

Reattaching the teak 1/4 round moldings on the side was a bit difficult. I couldn't find anything marine grade, so I tacked them back using brass brads. They're rotting out, naturally. It was hard to hammer the brads through the teak, and the laminate behind it, without bending them. So you might want to think of something better.

For my next aggravation, lets go under the cabin sole.

Beneath the plywood there are three blocks of what I think is called pressboard/chipboard/flakeboard. Its junk. Little pieces flake off and wind up in the bilge. Could potentially clog the bilge pump. It really sheds if you touch it.

Anybody else have this?

I thought about slathering epoxy on it, but that won't work.

Maybe I'll cover the underside with a sheet of something and screw it in.

Don't want to try removing it, its too difficult working under there. Can't see what you're doing and tools don't fit.

[ebb]

Maybe you could send in the little people
who took that incredible picture!


Could make a sanding paddle out of a 1/4" thin batten with some 40/60 grit on the business end and try to smooth that hanging hairy stuff a little. Then try brushing on some of smith's cpes to seal it. Like maybe cut a two inch throwawy bristle brush off at the metal band and attach it sticking up. on end, to a batten. Try painting to seal the old particle board. Any drips/puddles can be wiped up or spread around on the ballast.

Or if you can reach in there with hand and arm, I'd probably soak a small terry towel in any kind of thin epoxy and just press it up onto the underside until it gets good and wet. Quicker than the brush thing.

Scuse me for adding: but it's better to avoid Mr Smith's lethal brew and make your own using laminating epoxy thinned sparingly with xylene. Hold yer breath anyway!

[Hull376]

I replaced the sole three years ago, but some water from a drip found its way underneath the plywood and started dry rot. This stuff is thin, doesn't take much to ruin it. So, I have extra half piece of teak/holly plywood and the template, so recutting a new piece will be a piece of cake. But......... what do the technical wizards think about the proper way to install so won't happen again? Thickened epoxy with some screws to make sure no voids around the edges? Does it matter if the stuff can't be removed in the future without blowing up the boat? Ha!

[ebb]

Poisonally, I don't think epoxy is the end all ultimate be all glue. I mean it's managable - arguably easier than 5200 or silicone glued stuff to evacuate in a remodel. Whatz yer other choice?.... contact cement? Who needs to breathe those volitiles?
Besides with epoxy you can seal the edges this time, where the rot took holt.

As you might have seen elsewhere, I'm a firm believer in first prepping the piece and the work surface with plain or even slightly thinned epoxy. Then the fumed silica thickened 'glue'. A two stage process. No wait - put the liquid on, wipe it off, both surfaces - put the gel on (use a small toothed metal applicator to get a fast even coat.) Put the gel on both pieces. Using the wide applicator spans any depressions (which you might have after removing the old sole) so you can mate two level surfaces to end up with no voids.

Would move it around a little if I could, instead of just dropping it in place. Would lean on it to look for squeeze out, which is a good thing. Would lay a piece of dead flat 3/4" ply, nearly the same size, on top with some weight on it. Bend some battens from the roof to the ply for pressure - bendy battens will probably provide firm but not too fierce pressure that jamming in straight pieces would do. Stand on it with a frosty bottle. When it stops oozing you know you did good. Wipe the ooze away with paper towels. Clean up with a towel wet with alcohol - not from the frosty bottle.

You can seal and fair both surfaces as above, but instead of gel go with contact cement. Don't have to let the sealer totally set. Has to be 'going off' tho. Imho all work we do on a boat is for the poor guy next down the line. Contact rubber may be a friendlier way to go! Big attic fan and No Standing Around. Get the hell out of there.

The main thing is to seal all wood surfaces and endgrain with epoxy. Total encapsulation is the target. You can't get total, you only get close. If you are going to varnish the teak and holly top you could use CPES* (or your own) as a primer, but do the piece outside the boat, all eight sides. No mo rot.

Just my opinion. ;)
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

Either method will work if in hot weather you don't have time. Just have the first coat go off - you've accomplished the important sealing part. Then do the gel thing or the cement thing. Probably get a good bond next day even without doing a sanding prep.
On these hot days been putting my (100% solids, no solvent) epoxy gallon cans in the fridge over night, mixing them cold. Still goes off fast over 70degrees, but you get a little extra time for picky jobs.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

*From Smith's own literature - the secret to using an epoxy sealer (under varnish) is to soak the mahogany or teak, let it sit until it is almost setting up, then wipe it off with a solvent. Smith's wants you to use one of their nasty's, but, with throw-away terry cloths and denatured alcohol, you can scrub off any film, leaving the wood surface ready for only a light sanding. When dry you have a wood surface that has a penetrated seal IN it. The secret is to remove any film or puddling of the sealer so that your varnish is applied to wood rather than sealer.

[Hull376]

Thanks, ebb. Helpful as you always are!! I wish I'd done this right the first time, but........ practice makes perfect. Maybe this time I can try out "Ultimate Sole." With temps hitting 90's in Galveston Bay area, looks like I'll have to put the epoxy in the FREEZER before using. You have to drink the long-necks fast this time of year---- or cry in warm beer.

[cbs]

I am starting to fefinish#272 cabin sole as well, mine appears to to have never been cared for quite dark as it stands now but not too stained , i will send some pics as well, yours looks really good , hope i will have similar success!

[Hull376]

ebb,
Its been done, no turning back. I never want to have to do this again while I own the boat, so did the diluted epoxy thing to a new sole cutout. Even wiped the floor down with the cat and dog killing antifreeze to kill any third kingdom of life spores, then plastered down the new sole on a generous helping of thickened epoxy. I weighted it all down waiting for it to kick. Had to grab some extra bricks at the last minute to get it all firmly pressed down. If I had to do it again, I'd put in some very small (2x or 4x) screws in which could be removed and filled in later. Would be a lot easier than weighting it down. You know, the Iberian workers didn't care much about how lever the floor on 376 was--- the old old sole was just goobered in place with black rubber cement (lasted for the first 40 years).

There are still a few spots along the edges where there is a small gap. I'm going to fill those in so no place along the edges for any water to collect, although I can't see that it would do harm to this waterproof reinstallation. But maybe prevent a spot for mold or other science experiments to start evolving. They'd have to love to eat epoxy though.

[ebb]

Creating an habitat for anaerobic bacteria to thrive
is one of the unaddressed issues of epoxy encapsulation.

To prevent salmonella, haddock spruge and nodding crab
from breeding you may find it advisable to create openings
in the cockpit sole so that normal and more acceptable
bacteria, algae, funguys and the like will be more at home.

This is done by taking a small nail and driving it at least
half (1/2) way into the newly varnished teak and holly over
most of the surface - this not only provides traction
but aeration and breathability to your beautibul hard won project. :rolleyes:

Con grats!

[Commander 147]

I bought a sheet of teak and holly for my cabin sole in Destiny. What do you guys recommend for finishing it?

Also I read someplace where finishing all sides top, bottom and edges is a good thing to help it keep from wicking up water that might get below it.

Thoughts?

[Ariel 109]

A good question. Since teak is not known for holding coated finishes well I recommend going with an lightly applied oil finish. The nice thing about raw teak is that it's somewhat anti-skid. And a coated finish is just going to get scratched up. But if you must there's good old polyurethane.

The "original" teak cabin sole on my Ariel I don't think has every been treated with a finish. A good scrubbing with a stiff brush and some Murphy's Oil Soap I need to do one day.

[ebb]

Jerry,
Plywood, don't know what you got there but the top veneer is probably very thin.
So maybe it should be finished/protected with something you are not going
to remove when it comes time to do it again.

I personally would seal the whole sheet (after fitting) on all sides with a NON-BLUSHING laminating (low viscosity) epoxy, two coats minimum.*
Then sand the epoxy on top of the sheet until you get an epoxy surface that looks smooth, 220. You may need more epoxy coats.
Then do a polyurethane clear for a hard surface - or LeTonkinois, a tough traditional varnish for a warm look..
Either one, put enough coats on so that when you have to sand the sole to renew
you won't ever sand thru to the wood veneer.
The concept is not just to seal surfaces with epoxy but to build up the surfaces you are going to varnish with epoxy to get an absolutely flat smooth base. I've posted somewhere here a lead to a paper by a guy whose business is to create the final glassy finishes for concours chriscraft presentations and the like. This is his method, filtered thru moi.

Either coating can be scuffed, the slippery shine removed if you wish, with ScotchBrite Pad.
Hardware stores carry a range of these pads, the green one from the grocery store is the one to try first. (Knock the tops off of micro bubbles and dust craters with sharp new paper don't scratch the surface if you use 100, sand to smooth with 220 between coats. Don't remove your last coat.)

*There is nothing wrong with CPES penetrating epoxy sealer as the first coat except that it is very expensive and full of nasty solvents. Tou cannot build up thickness with it, it'll go gummy if you try.
I'm a fan of laminating epoxy for nearly every job on the boat.
Mixing up a regular batch and adding a little xylene (watch out, this is lethal stuff too) to thin it will make an excellent sealer. You probably need only a single thinned coat on the bottom of the ply.
And there isn't much 'penetrating' to do on the top T&H veneer. So one thinned, one unthinned as a filler. Any doubts on too much epoxy draw a pliable green spatula over the surface to remove extra material and spread more evenly. After sanding to get a smooth surface, you may have to do it again.
But this can be done outside befor install - the whole epoxy sealing process. Edges are real thirsty.

[I'm convinced that ALL our wood on or in the boat can be sealed and prepped using 100% solids (NO solvent) laminating epoxy. (Add solvent ONLY to the first soaking in coat.) Build up coats and sand until a perfectly smooth epoxy surface is created. Then lay on the finish. Varnish or p.urethane.

You will never have delaminating problems with the ply if done this way.
And PRE-protecting the T&H befor final glitzy coats will make it easy to maintain.
ALL IMCO !!!!
goodluck......and photos of course!:cool:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________
later edit
Comment on heating epoxy to get it runny to soak in.
Well, why not. Need a simple method to heat the mix AND you might find it setting up befor you get it on the wood.

What I have found myself doing when not wanting to use xylene (x. IS one of the bad benzene ring ,read carcinogen, solvents) is to
SCRUB the first undiluted coat vigorously into the dry wood surface, destroying the throwaway brush!
Then immediately take a big rag and SCRUB the surface as dry as you can make it.
Wipe off all anaomolies: brush hairs, splinters, bits of cloth, whatever, puddles. Let it set. Most wood and plywood will be hairy. Sand this surface smooth, by removing just the stand up stuff. It'll sand smooth quickly. Then recoat with full strength. These epoxy coats sand easily in my experience....especially with the ocillating disk sander.

[mbd]

I seem to remember reading in the West System manuals (sorry Ebb, I know you're not a fan.) that heating up the material helps with absorbing that first coat of epoxy. It seems like baking a few hours in the Florida sun would be ideal for this. Also warming the resin helps thin it, but I don't think Jerry needs any help with that.

[Commander 147]

I guess I'm in the same camp as Ebb about sealing wood especially down here in hot humid Florida. And sealing all sides makes a lot of sense to me also. You never know when a leak could spring up that could cause water all over the floor. The water can certainly seep under the plywood and stay there for some time before it drys out. I think I will give Ebb's process a go.

Mike I have some "tropical" hardener for my Raka epoxy that dries really slow and Raka's resin # 127 is already a pretty thin resin for easy wet outs. So a combination of the slow hardener and the thin resin should seep in pretty good here.

BTW Practical Sailor is going to do a test on epoxies soon and when I saw they were going to do that I sent them an e-mail to see if they would include Raka epoxy in the test. They published my e-mail in the last issue and replied that they would. It will be interesting to see how it compares.

[ebb]

You will read that WestSystems wants teak strips solvent washed not more than 30 minutes befor epoxy gluing teak to a deck.
(By the by System Three totally disagrees with WestSystem's use of epoxy to glue teak strips to a deck and making an epoxy 'caulk' line that would normally have two-part polysulfide.)

Acetone is not actually a benign solvent. But it has been traditionally used as a solvent and medium cleaner for polyester and epoxy work on boats.....without directly killing workers. (lesser evil than MEK for instance.) So dewax with instant drying ACETONE, not naptha or lacquer thinner as sometimes advised.

Since we don't know what epoxy you are using, it may be best to wipe the top teak/holly ply surface with acetone just befor applying epoxy. BUT
FIRST
I would wet wipe a test scrap to get a feel for it, see if anything happens to the wood and its glue lines.
If it seems OK, only then would I wipe the plywood surface with a DAMP acetone rag, just in case some shenanagans were used to put the holly strips into the teak. Keep solvent out of the wood seams. Never know.

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Thanks again for the reminder. I knew about the solvent wash on the teak but had not considered the glue line between the teak and the holly. That was a very good point to keep in mind. Thanks

[Hull376]

Epoxy the dickens out of your new plywood. I missed a few spots in 2003 and had to redo it two years later as water seeped in the edges and soon the new sole looked black around the edges. Water will get on the sole, and it will find its way into the plywood unless you seal it up really well. I used lots of epoxy to glue the newest floor down, the edges were filled in with epoxy so no way water could even get to the edges this time around. I pity anyone who tries to remove this sole 40 years from now. its now permanent. After sanding, i applied a good poly finish. It can be redone many times because the expoxy is at least 3 coats thick.

[Commander 147]

Thanks Kent

Other people's experiences are always good to hear.

[commanderpete]

The formulation of a lot of products tends to change over time because of VOC regulations and such.

This product mentions being suitable for wood decks. You might want to call ask how slippery it is.

http://www.waterlox.com/products/

[ebb]

for what it's worth:
Products like Gymseal which may once have been pure tungoil coatings/varnish (like Le Tonkinois) have disappeared.
They have been replaced with polyurethane coatings.
These coatings often are hard skins that tend to get water under them and bubble or lift off eventually.
Not all of them. So research has to be done.
That includes what has worked for others.
And not all experience will match our/your set of conditions.
Obviously the manufacturer of a teak sole will have recommendations Have to look into that.

Unless grit or something like pumice is introduced into your last coat on the sole, ANYTHING WILL BE SLIPPERY WHEN IT GETS WET, even a hardwood basketball/gym court. Including pumice.

If you want your sole to shine like a Steinway, maybe a temporary nonslip devise like a tubmat is the way to go - just remove it when you want to impress yourself again how lucky you got with that finish!:D

I have a feeling that LeTonkinois will make a long lasting traditional looking cabin sole finish.
I know somebody will use it to seal ALL the edges of the plywood. IE, NO EPOXY! And finish the job off with hot grand piano gloss. A suction cup shower mat might work very well on a surface like that and could make a safe antiskid. Who's going to be first????
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____
EDIT. More thinking about it: a dandy varnished sole is very desirable. Vinyl tub mats are universally awful in colors and smell. www.floormatshop.com has a 16"X27" very utilitarian suction cup mat in royal blue and beige. (Type in > homz gripper < in the search boz)
Befor you buy check out the outgassing problem that many of these products have. The recycle symbol somewhere on the product if it is PVC is a 3 inside a triangle - PVC IS NOT RECYCLABLE. The odor is coming mostly from those deadly phthalates that soften vinyl and make the suction cups work like suction cups. See WISEGEEK, What is Polyvinyl Chloride? We have met the enenmy and it is the plastic we use! It would seem that a suction cup non skid mat could be made with polyethylene?

[Commander 147]

Thanks Commander Pete and Ebb

I had already investigated the Ulitmate Sole product and found that it is indeed out of production and no longer available.

As far as the finish goes on my sole I'm one of those people that feels function is ALWAYS first and then form is brought up to it's best level after function. And so far in my mind coating all sides with a couple layers of epoxy to keep water from delaminating the floor and then following that up with a high UV protection layer (or layers) to keep the epoxy in good condition takes care of the function part with the exception of the slippery issue. I want the sole to look good but I don't need it to be a furniture finish. I don't even think that is desireable because it lowers functionality (by getting more slippery) so I would steer away from that tack. I'm just trying to get to the best compromise with function having a higher priority than form.

[ebb]

Jerry,
Well, Being in the same boat so to speak......
WHAT is the answer?

Look into SKID SAFE - New Dimension Solutions
www.ndclean.com/skidsafe.html
scroll down through a bunch of words to a box that says 'pictures'
Inside you'll find steps that are bright and shiney, you can see wood, but you'll have to admit it isn't furniture.
Whatdoyathink?

Whatever the stuff is, it is a low VOC water borne coating, probably a polyurethane,
that you add some sort of aggregate to, that will stick well to epoxy,
according to the hype.:D
"pleasant under bare feet - unnoticable when looking at the completed application."
Nothing about maintenance or recoating. No mention of marine or boat decks.
Apply with a MOP! - cotton or urethane sponge ("Do not use a roller!") - 4 coats min. - goes on thin.

nope, haven't tried it. Anybody who has, or does, let us know!
[ooooooops! dang, that hurt! Slipped on that. Man, that's aggravating.]
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
Nothing is so aggravating than calmness. Oscar Wilde

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Nice find. I read through all the material and looked at the pictures. Looks like I need to call the company which I will do after they open today. I have two concerns which I need to ask them about. The first is UV protection. I did not see anywhere that said anything about UV protection ability of the product. And epoxy needs UV protection so I need to verify where that issue stands.

The second thing I noticed is that the product has to be applied in "moderate to low humidity levels". Which will drastically reduce the periods throughout the year that I can use the product. I need to find out what relative humidity levels they are talking about when they say "moderate to low humidity levels". They are located in Nevada where humidity levels do not even resemble the levels here in Florida.

They mention the material breathes which is also how Cetol describes their product. It may be that I need to do epoxy first, then somthing that will give me UV resistance and then finally the Skidsafe product.

I'll report back after I can talk to them about these issues. Is there anything you want me to ask them?

[ebb]

ayeduno what to ask?
Why no mention of UV? I just did a quick scan of their whole bloody site!
Their warranty is five to seven years on what looks like outdoor stuff like swimpools and the like - including high traffic areas.

Scanned their Data Sheet, which makes application sound like we need to practice how to do it befor doing it. And they suggest that!!!
It's a new system with an unknown material.
They also at one point imply that dusting on the aggregate on to a wet application is a choice.
As if there are some applications where we would NOT use the added aggregate.

So, IS there a antiskid quality when the aluminum oxide is not added to your sole?
With a boat we want ALL the antiskid we can get!
Is the stuff sharp? Maybe not to the bottoms of feet, but would it be to a naked knee?

There is a 5day totally wet limit for the system, it is not for underwater or totally wet areas. Maybe that is why marine is not mentioned. It will turn white but upon drying will go back to its transparent state. How damp are you?

[What kind of a flooding episode would the cabin sole survive with our other alternatives.
How difficult is it to refurbish the system (ie Skid Safe - or a hard polyurethane - or LeTonkinois)
Just maintenance is an issue as well.]

Is the aggregate dusted on after the last coat? SIX COATS are required when using the aggregate. And each coat has to DRY. But not cure, one assumes.
Do they have a tip for applying the GRIT? I remember using grated cheese jars (pizza parlor) with perforated tops in ground walnut shell antiskid apps.
Can more liquid be put on over antiskid early layers to deaden oxide sharpness?
Is there a waiting time befor a subsequent coat can be added?

I'd ask them about touch up, repair, and recoating. And maybe, if the person you are talking with understands, whether it can be successful in our app on the cabin sole.

What alternative applicators can we use to apply the stuff, can they recommend a brush???
Clean brush withsoap and water?

Hopefully a quart will be enough for our tiny area, What is it - about 15 square feet?

Apropos your location, will blowing ambient moist air over the sole with a fan help dry it?
jabajabajaba

[Commander 147]

Well, looks like the questions will need to wait a while longer... you never get to talk to an actual person any longer when you call a company you get to talk to someone's voice mail. So we will see if Daniel calls me back.

[ebb]

Jerry, here's a blog with photo support. So we get to see the product in use - which always helps.
Chestnut Cottage Chapter II Defined Design
www.defineddesign.com/chestnut-cottage-chapter-2


The stuff comes in a very unassuming jug.

[Commander 147]

Ebb

Just left another message for Daniel to call (got his voice mail again) but in the meantime I checked out your link. I found it interesting that in the directions for Skid Safe they say use a high quality mop (ureathane) but DO NOT use yellow sponge mop. In one of the blog's pictures it sure looks like they were using a yellow sponge mop. :-)

This stuff going on looks just like the water based polyureathanes I have used with my HVLP sprayer when building furniture projects. It goes on milky white and dries very clear. Actually it dries more clear than any oil based product will. The oil based products always have a tint of yellow. Some manufacturers of water based products even started adding yellow tint to make their product more widely accepted.

OK so back to waiting on Daniel again.

[Commander 147]

Daniel did finally call back yesterday but my grandsons came over while I was talking to him and I did not get to post this until now.

I got the impression Daniel was not of an engineering or chemistry background but more of a PR person who did not have any more information available to him than the website provided. In response to my questions he said the following.

1.) As far as the UV resistance he could not tell me level of protection the product would provide. He did tell me he would check it out and e-mail me the answer but I have not seen anything yet.

2.) As far as the humidity levels goes during application again he could not tell me a specific level of relative humidity that was too high but said instead that if the levels were high then it would still cure but it would take longer. He did not have a good idea of how much longer for specific levels of relative humidty.

3.) As far as the aggregate goes he indicated that in our application he would recommend using it. His statement was that if there is a potential for the floor getting wet then it should be used. I have to apologize that with my grandsons standing in front of me waiting for me to get off the phone I did not quiz him more on the non-skid characteristics of the product without the aggregate.

4.) As far as applying the aggregate he said it should go down after the first coat and then apply 5 more coats over the top of it. He did not have any ideas for differant methods of applying it such as your grated cheese shaker which by the way sounds like a pretty good idea, he simply said just sprinkle it on.

5.) As far as asking him about the courseness of the aggregate and one's ability to kneel on it without high levels of discomfort he said "it could be sharp but doesn't have to be". He indicated that the added 5 layers of the material on top of the aggregate would soften it's feel.

6.) As far as the drying time between coats he said wait until the material is dry to the touch (does not stick to your finger when you touch it) and you can recoat. He said it is better to apply all six coats as soon as possible that way.

7.) Daniel told me that the material was very easy to repair if damaged. He said you could apply it to the damaged area and it would blend very well with the surrounding surfaces. He said it would not be necessary to apply another coat to the entire surface to make it look good.

8.) When it comes to application tools Daniel recommended a high quality sponge. When I asked him if a brush was ok he said it would be better to use one of those sponge brushes.

9.) Daniel said a quart would be enough material for all 6 coats of our small cabin soles.

10.) When asked about the materials ability to withstand flooding he indicated that flooding for short periods ( a few hours or maybe a day) would be recoverable from but not long time frames.

11.) Daniel did not really know if a fan blowing over the drying material in a humid climate would help much or not.

Bottom line from my perspective is that Daniel could not instill in me the confidence to jump in with both feet so to speak. I hope he does respond to me about the UV characteristics aspect because that is an important piece of the puzzle.

[ebb]

Jerry, that's really too bad about that Daniel character.
Myself has no patience anymore.
Salesmen are always tested for their practical knowledge.
If they are not up to it, or BS by skewing the subject, right or wrong I'll drop my interest in the product.
There's always an alternative.

It is ALL about ENTHUSIASM. (viz that wonderful Schwab quote!)
That would also be my key to suss the capability of a product for my application.
Information has to be forthcoming. That's why I hate politicians.

[Developed a real trust in Paul Oman of epoxyproducts.com, because the many times I talked with him on the phone or in emails the guy knows the products he is flogging. He's personally tested them out.
Stumpted him a time or two, but he would flat out say he didn't know. Develops trust.
Another trustworthy guy who is of course entusiastic about his products is Steve Smith of Smith&Co (CPES - All Wood Epoxy - Ten Year Gloss(something like that). He has evolved into a techpoet walker - he blogs somewhere on the net.]

Salesmen do suffer fools though, because sometimes we don't ask the right questions.

TOO BAD
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Edit. About refinishing. How easy/difficult would it be to refinish the sole if we coated with SkidSafe&grit? Can imagine a wear pattern emerging in the surface that couldn't be fixed by adding more product and aggregate. How do we sand aluminum oxide aggregate? Would we have to use a stripper. Would the stripper be one that doesn't eat the epoxy precoats. Who the hell wants to use a stripper anyway. Carbide hand scrappers? So refurbishing the sole becomes a problem - maybe.

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White aluminumm oxide, the SkidSafe aggregate, is a very sharp blasting medium. Probably comes in a variety of grit sizes. And probably is readily available. Could sprinkle it into your favorite polyurethane coating. Favorite p.urethane coating already has an added UV inhibitor, no doubt.
Maybe an Edison version of your signoff would be "..... does unlimited experimenting" ! ! !:D
[gotta fictional product name for us: Seatol TruGrit]

[Commander 147]

You know Ebb, currently until something comes along to change my mind I'm leaning towards the epoxy sealer and then a satin polyureathane with high UV resistance maybe like the one in this link.

http://www.lancopaints.com/english/products/3.1_poly_fin.html

When I think about how many times I have sailed on my friend's Tartan 3000 and his cabin sole looks like it was just polyureathaned on the top surface to a smooth level surface and I have not had a slipping problem ever on his his boat, I wonder if I'm just over thinking the whole thing. I'm prone to that.

[Ariel 109]

When I think about how many times I have sailed on my friend's Tartan 3000 and his cabin sole looks like it was just polyureathaned on the top surface to a smooth level surface and I have not had a slipping problem ever on his his boat, I wonder if I'm just over thinking the whole thing. I'm prone to that.

Topsiders are also helpful and in fashion for the moment.

[Commander 147]

Topsiders are also helpful and in fashion for the moment.

And that may be why I have never had a problem. I almost always where boat specific shoes.

[Commander 147]

Well Daniel sent me a reply about the UV, here it is...

Hello Jerry,

Thanks for sending your thorough review of our conversation.

I checked our company information about UV resistance. We have not had the product
tested in independent lab for this feature, and therefore we are not making
any advertising claims in this respect. From my experience, I have not seen
SKID SAFE being affected by Sun in any way, even after 8+ years of exposure
to it.

Your application is very specific, and if UV resistance is not as good,
as I know it is, then there would be expensive process to fix the damage
Since we have no proof of this resistance from independent lab
I do not recommend SKID SAFE for your application. We do not want
to be responsible for any possible damage to your expensive underlying material.

Best regards,

[ebb]

Think it VERY suspicious that UV resistance is not included in company lit.
Daniel's recommendation NOT to use the stuff in our app is the best advise yet.
Sorry I started something.
Feel a little like Kramer bursting into a room unprepared.
When we look into a product, often the most telling thing about it
is what is left out.

[Commander 147]

Don't feel sorry Ebb, you were just trying to search out a solution for a question that I had. And I appreciate you taking time to help me find a solution. Sometimes it just takes a bit of detective work to get to the bottom of things. This was just one of those cases.

[ebb]

(this double dipped, have no idea why)

[ebb]

Advertise high UV protection, marine and offshore apps, in a water clear anti-skid hybrid coating.
They have data sheets for Clear coat antiskid but
could not find any aggregate additive mentioned.
Anti-skid without aggregate? - so I left it hang for now
And if interested there is always the problem of finding the stuff, and finding it at a decent price and small quantity. All that.

I don't think its available in stores and is very expensive. To hell with it!
Be my guest.:rolleyes:


A basic primer on the no-skid subject that also discusses the viscosities of coatings in relation to grit is at
google> non-skid coatings - Progressive Epoxy Polymers, Inc
www.epoxyproducts.com
This is a unique website and takes some getting used to - so persist!
While Paul Oman generously gives us the basics ('Anti Slip Primer'), the info does not go specifically into clear coatings. But it's really good on what to expect from aggregate and has tips for apps.
The anti-slip problem we have is still open for experimentation. (Who's going to do that?)
Walnut shell in various sieve sizes is imco the best for enamels, it's permanent but can be sanded away.

Clear coats on fancy teak or mahogany and what aggregate to use is another story.
We have the folks above who chose white aluminum oxide.
But there are other blasting media that I haven't seen used like glass beads and acrylic plastic grit that might be removed fairly easy if wanted.

However, here's an idea. another approach for us using the Epoxy Plywood Encapsulate Technique (EPET),
would be to conservatively, not too much, you want to see the wood, sprinkle our aggregate of choice into the last epoxy coat of the prep series
and top it off with the finish coat varnish or acrylic or polyurethane to get that last inch of shine. Let the epoxy do the dirty work in other words.
Control aggressive grit with finish coats. Add to soften.
Paul, on his epoxyproducts site above warns us to Never, Never, Never use sand!
Have to think how you will approach refinishing the cabin sole or the cockpit deck,
if you can't sand the grit off, scraping is the ony way - besides using a stripper.



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I've beem amazed at how often those outside the discipline of design assume that what designers do is decoration.
Good design is problem solving - Jeffery Veen

[ebb]

Hey Jerry, looks like I missed your blueline on
lancopaints.

The Marine (100% !!!!! UV resistant) Marinethane looks very interesting indeed.

It may be one the new breed of exterior coatings that don't use darkening UV inhibitors.

Looking at the data sheet: put on 4mils coating - drys to 2mils.
There's about 50% solvents in the stuff - which you pay for, and disappears.
Imco you should not apply this inside unless wearing a direct airflow mask.

Don't know-bout-no-stinkun-shoes - my antiskid test is the barefoot slip test.:D