Electricians- Help

[Hull376]

Ok gang, maybe I should call this the "mysterious red wire" thread. My boat is wired at the distribution panel like the second wiring diagram in the Ariel manual as follows:

Purple: Bow Lt
Orange: Running Lts
Yellow: Cabin Lts
Blue: Misc (Anchor Lt on mine)
Green: Misc (Spreader Lt on mine)
Black: to the termnal strip then to (+) battery

But wait, there's one more. A red wire is in the wire bundle but it doesn't attach to anything in the distribution panel. It has the exact same butt connector that all of the wires use that attach to the switch panel, so it looks like original installation as opposed to add on. Only one prior owner on this boat and only for a couple of years in the 60's, and I know my dad didn't add this wire! The red wire reappears and is connected to the top of a circuit on the terminal strip, and there is another red wire from the bottom of the same circuit on the terminal strip. It goes to who knows where-- it disappears in the bundle of wires that go off into the darkness behind the bulkhead and the icebox. Sooooo, may I safely assume that this was an "extra" that can be used with the additional switch panel I'm adding, or was it for something? I'm hoping to shift attention away from "Logo Envy" to "Red Wire Envy" for those of you who don't have one.

[mrgnstrn]

First off, do all your lights work?
second, is the red wire bigger than the other five colored wires? and does it lead into the switchbox/distribution panel?
on mine, which i just gutted and re-wired, the red wire fed positive current to the switchbox, and was attached as follows:

1. a grey wire from the battery to the terminal strip on the fore-aft bulkhead, under the top step.
2. the big fat (~8 or ~10 gage maybe) red wire from the terminal strip up into the port lazerette and then into the channel that leads to the switchbox.
3. at that point it was soldered (i think) to the "goes-in's" all 5 of the switches. the switches are wired to the fuses, and the 5 colored wires come off the fuses.

so, unless i have now lost you or unknowingly belittled your knowledge, hopefully this helped.

you have probably already done this, but did you look inside the switch panel (is that what you call the distribution panel?)

-km
hull #3

[Hull376]

Mrgnstrn,

Yea, what I call the distribution panel is the switch panel. What I'm calling the terminal strip is the strip mounted next to the steps (right above the ground strip). And all the lights and everything work--- there's just one extra red wire in the bundle that has a butt connector but isn't and never was connected to the switch panel. The connector was never "crimped". Its the sixth wire and it doesn't have a home-- the switch panel (original) only has room for five. The red wire is the same gauge as the others. On my ariel, the black is the heavier gage and goes to the battery + terminal eventually (its the seventh wire-- don't you love this?). I'm just going to assume the red wire was an extra put in there for "expansion" but never used in the basic factory set-up. It doesn't appear on the electrical schematic in the ariel manual (the second schematic which is for the higher numbered boats, everything in that diagram matches my boat exactly-- will be different from your original set up on a low number boat, which probably had next heavier wire size and wire insulation colors were different). I've got an OB model, could that wire have been used on boats with Atomic 4 inboard? Oh well..........maybe instead of "the sixth sense", I have a boat with "the sixth wire".

[mrgnstrn]

so, inside the switchbox, what color is the feeding wire for the switches? black?
does this extra wire have voltage on it? is it possible it is the "always on" circuit? it was on my boat.
although mine may not be standard, either because it was so early int eh lifecycle and there may have been simplifications/design changes. also, i know for a fact that there was at least some modifications to the system because the battery was wired to the aft lasserette. but the red wire that feeds the switchbox to be distributed seemed original, based on how old the tape looked and how it was taped into the bundle with the other 5 colored wires. so i suspect that the modifications were elsewhere,but i cannot confirm that.

still check for voltage on the red one. and for giggles you could check for continuity to ground. since it seems like your black is the feeder (and should be red) maybe the red is the gound. who knows. the only way is to hand-over-hand it from one end to the next to find where it goes/comes from.

this is where you will want to hire some 8 year old gymnasts, to contort themselves into the cockpit lockers, under the cockpit sole, etc where no grown man is intended to fit. i felt like jackhammers had gone nuts on my lower back for a week.

[Theis]

The old switch panels only switched one lead. The common lead that is switched HAS TO BE the + lead (switching the negative can be cause a fire because only the ground lead is fused. If there is a ground somewhere in the circuit, the current drain bypasses the fuse and can start a georgous blaze with virtually unlimited current). The plus lead is red - universally.

On the newer switch panels there is often a light that shows whether the switch is on, and the fuse good. For those new panels, you need both a positive (red) and a negative (black) going to the switch panel.

I strongly suggest that you maintain convention with regard to wiring color (black is negative, red is positive). If you or someone else works on your wiring a year or more down the pike, after you have forgotten and the colors are reversed, there could be fireworks.

[Hull376]

See page 177 in the manual----- the black wire goes to (+) battery. Very interesting.

[Theis]

Look at page 176. You will see that the red#10 wire to the switch box is the hot wire. There is no black wire to the switch box. This drawing has a date of 1966, and the drawing on page 177 does not have a date. It would appear that the 176 drawing is a later drawing, however, as it also includes the Lark.

A couple other points. I have had my boat surveyed at least twice. Reviewing those documents, a 1977 survey states under recommendations "Remove terminal block for battery cable in aft comp. and replace with block of proper size for cable and provide with cover to prevent short in system."

The original terminal blocks/distribution panel left a great deal to be desired. My suggestion is that you replace them with covered busses with a larger number of terminals.

As to the number of circuits, they too were insufficient by today's standards. I now have eleven fused circuits, and one of those circuits, "instruments", has a separate fuse panel with four fuses (now totalling 13 circuits).

If your new switch panel has lights and needs a negative wire as well as the positive, I suggest using the red for positive, and the black for negative.

The black for positive, and white for negative convention I have seen but that really goes back to an early time - so long ago I had forgotten about it

On the plus side, they sure did use heavy gauge wire - in my opinion they overdid it..

[mrgnstrn]

now it is coming clearer.
they used to follow the AC convention, with white being negative and that left black to be used as a color you could use for postive. thinking back to ripping all the wiring out, there was always one color and one white (+, -).

but we digress. Theis is right, the really smart thing to do is replace the black feeder line with a red feeder line, and find out if there is voltage on the extra red, or if it is grounded. who knows, maybe a previ.owner. started the changeover from black to red and got sidetracked and forgot and just left the red hanging.

:confused:
sidenote: why did cars and boats diverge from the AC convention with white as negative and some other color as live? can anybody figure out where the traditions for each got set? because if we didn't make black negative for 12V circuits, then we wouldn't have people cutting into black wires, thinking they are 12V negative and getting shocked by 120V. makeing me go out and get red/yellow saftey wire. we are just running out of colors.... (or maybe my poor eyes can't see all the colors anymore........)

[Hull376]

I'll definitely try to yank out the black heavy gauge (+) and replace it with red per current DC color convention. No voltage on that extra red wire (checked it per your advice), so guess on my late model boat it must have just been pulled through to the switch as an extra. It doesn't complete a circuit anywhere. And its identical to all the other wires-- not an aftermarket deal.


Thanks.

[Theis]

This might be obvious, but just in case it is something you overlooked, I suggest you use marine connectors, not the type you get at the local hardward store. Tracing a bad connection is a PIA and not worth taking a chance based on the difference in price. As you are well aware, corrosion runs rampant on a boat.