Deck joint-Who, What and When

[Tony G]

Some time ago in one of these threads the topic of the deck to hull seam was tossed about. I tried to scroll back to the begining of the tech threads and dig for the information but all I got was a couple of mentions and fuzzy vision. Not everything I remembered it to be! Usually when I sit in the cabin or lay inside one of the cockpit lockers invisioning possibilities my eyes inevitably drift to one of two things:1) my beverage sitting just out of reach or 2) that pesky seam. It has held up for fourty years but it just doesn't look that strong. Besides, maybe it was only supposed to last fourty-one years. The cloth doesn't even appear to have been saturated and looks to be as weak as the cloth that was tabbed to the mast support beam(cut that with a dull standard screwdriver). Granted I haven't even started sanding in that area yet but it is definitely on the list of things to address. I've thought about filling it with epoxy, fileting the underside of the then flush deck/toerail with the inside of the hull and over lay that assembly with cloth and epoxy compatable matting. The primary goal is to strenghten the joint with secondary intentions of providing a strong attachment for a caprail. The one stumbling block for me is it would probably amount to twenty-some pounds of epoxy before we're done and a couple of scorched areas from the exothermic curing. The thought of rolling glass up inside the toerail doesn't thrill me one bit so I'd like to fill that void with something( however, I did get two glass rollers for Christmas this year even though it should have been an ab-roller:( )
What has worked for others out there? Tell us your stories of how you cured this feable joint. Any ideas of a good approach to take?

[Mike Goodwin]

Do it on the outside ! Then cap it with wood .

[commanderpete]

I would remove the metal rubrail on the outside and take a look at the seam. If water has gotten trapped behind the rubrail, it can soften the seam.

Grind out any soft spots and fill the gap with thickened epoxy or 5200.

I also thought that the hull/deck joint was not as robust as might be expected. I decided to add some layers from the inside.

First I ground off all the old paint and scroungy bits of fiberglass underneath the toerail and back a few inches down the hull and underneath the deck.

[commanderpete]

That was a nasty, miserable job.

The only reason I got started on this job is because one or two of the partial bulkheads had started to seperate from the shelf below and I wanted to glass them back again. The project just kinda escalated. I decided to do all of the bulkheads and corners and the hull/deck joint too.

I used layers of fibeglass tape (regular and biaxial) overlapping 2 inch, 4 inch, 6 inch and finally 8 inch.

The fiberglass tape will stick upside down, provided you keep the lengths less than about 2 feet.

[commanderpete]

I did the hull/deck joint in the whole cabin area. I thought I might do the rest of the boat in the future. But, I'm not so sure.

I think its important to make sure all the structural bulkheads are securely attached to the hull and deck.

Beefing up the hull/deck joint was probably unecessary overkill.

[commanderpete]

Trying to fill the whole underside of the toerail with epoxy and matt is possible. But, you would still need to grind off the paint (the hard part). You would probably need more like 200 pounds of epoxy.

[commanderpete]

Glad to be done with that job

[Tony G]

Mike, I don't have enough confidence in my glassing abilities to lay from the out side. We're looking at Flag Blue or Black hull colors. My dad had a body shop and I understand the principle of building up and sanding down to arrive at a new fair line but I don't think there is enough wood out there to cover it up! Maybe after retabbing the interior I'd be more comfortable with that tack. We like the inside approach because it doesn't have to look that pretty, just has to be strong.
Yeah, the stainless half round is destined for our Ensign and the remaining scars will be dug out, ground and filled. Good point, CPete, about keeping the tape lenghts short, I had forgot all about the 'under the cockpit nightmare' of our O'Day 22 when I epoxied my hair :mad:
What sort of grinder set-up did you use for sanding the inside of your hull and under the toe rail? Maybe I'll get to but a new powe tool! So far I've been lucky and have been able to get away with a minimal amount of hand sanding but things are about to change here.

[Dave]

My vote -- since it's what I did -- is to fill the seam from the outside. I was addressing the problem of leaks rather than trying to reinforce the joint, and may have accomplished both. The leaks are gone.
My Ariel has a teak caprail bolted through the toerail. I simply removed, bent up and threw away the stainless rubrail; scraped and ground out the silicone goo and dry cloth in the joint; and pressed epoxy thickened with West Systems 406 into the joint and faired it out. Will paint the hull next summer.
Since I can't see the joint from the inside, it may be that somebody already reinforced it - but it all looks original to me.
For what it's worth.
--Dave Gillespie

[Theis]

I had the same concern about the junction (I could see daylight through spots), coupled with the knowledge that the joint leaked, and I could never figure out where the leak was. The fix I made is easy and only takes a few hours.

Take the stainless steel rub rail off the outside. Use a Dremel Tool with a 1/8" router bit and grind a 1/8" gap in the existing deck/hull seam all around the boat (with the possible exception of the transom). You will generally pierce the skin and go through into the hull. That really is what you want to do, except where the seam is really good and deep. When you are finished, clean the gap with MEK, acetone or something like that. You now have a clean surface for 3M 5200 to adhere to.

Get a gun and a tube of 5200 and force it into the 1/8" gap. If it goes through the gap a bit into the hull all the better. Use a putty knife to smooth the outer surface of the 5200 so it protrudes just a bit outside of the gap. On the outside surface, it might be a half inch wide (covering the gap) and perhaps 1/16" thick.

When dry, the stainless steel strips are replaced (using 5200 on the self tap screws), and you have a perfect seal, one that is flexible and will not crack when you hit a dock or encounter other stresses (such as a boat alongside), one that is as strong or stronger than an epoxy seal. Don't worry if your bead over the gap is not particularly smooth or extends beyond that covered by the rub strips (although you want to do your best in this regard because there is a lot of work if you make a real mess). The 5200 can be cut away with a razor or drywall knife after it has cured. 5200 is used commercially to bond decks to hulls. 5200 comes in black, I believe. 5200 adheres to glass better than the gel coat. (If you try to pull the stuff off, the gel coat comes off. That is how well it adheres.)

[Janice Collins]

7 years ago, Tom reiforced our deck-hull joint from the outside, sanded the joint down, filled in the gaps with ???, faired it out, and replaced the stainless steal rubrail (with a sealant for both rail and screws. It needed no fiberglass reinforcement. We never had a problem with leaks from this area.

I had ALWAYS wanted to get rid of the stainless steal rubrail and the hundreds of screws, to me they were hundreds of ways water could get in, but Tom insisted on keeping that rail so it remains to this day on Wayward Star. I have no intentions of altering that, though I will inspect the area this haulout and see what he used as a filer and how its holding up. He had checked it two years ago, and it was fine.

[commanderpete]

To grind the paint from the underside of the toerail, I used an electric drill with various wire wheel and wire brush attachments.

No way to get any type of sander up there.

Have fun.

[Scott Galloway]

I read all of the hull/deck seam postings on this site and then I removed the leaking rub rail on my boat, hull #330. The seam was filled with some of the original stuff, by the summer of 2002, brittle and no longer functioning as a water barrier. However someone had at one point removed a mess of that stuff and pumped the seam full of silicon. I cleaned all of that out. Here are my log entries for July 2002 related to my solution to the problem of water intrusion:

04-Jul-02
Hull / deck seam:
Cleaned out hull deck seam with razor knife designed for cutting plastic.

08-Jul-02
Hull / deck seam:
Cleaned out hull-deck seam with razor knife designed for cutting plastic.

09-Jul-02
Hull / deck seam:
Cleaned hull deck seam and screw holes w/ acetone, filled screw holes w/ epoxy, filled seam with 3M 5200

11-Jul-02
Hull deck seam :
Sanded exterior of seam w/ 600grit sandpaper and cleaned with acetone, applied back half of rub rail with 3M 4200 and 1/2 inch #8 screws

12-Jul-02
Hull / deck seam:
Applied front half of portside rail with 3M 4200 and 1/2 inch screws, and back half of starboard rail. Applied front half of starboard rail with 3M 4200 and 1/2 inch screws.

I worked on other projects also on those five days. Many of the original ¾ inch screw holes went all of the way through the hull and through the glass tape that holds the hull onto the deck. That is why I filled the holes with epoxy.

I sealed the hull / deck seam with 5200 to give a permanent flexible waterproof bond, and used 4200 to reattach the rub rail so that if need be I can remove the rub rail again at some time in the future.

As far as the integrity of the hull/deck seam, I am for sticking with Mr. Alberg's design. I suppose if I had pulled off the rub rail and looked at that seam before I decided to buy an Ariel, and realized that:

1.The screws do nothing but hold the rub rail onto the boat, and

2.The only thing holding the deck to the hull is that little strip of glass and resin applied as a cold-joint band-aid along the flush mounted hull deck seam when the hull was married to the deck,

I might have had second thoughts about buying the boat. But hey, my boat had been "rode hard and put away wet" for years before I bought it, and apparently even once survived a major collision with a metal can which sent radial cracks out about a foot across both the deck and hull near of the starboard sheet winch, and the hull deck seam, boltless and screwless survived all of that.

Personally I subscribe to the idea that the decks on blue water cruising boats should be through bolted (not screwed) to the hull along an overlapping flange and also sealed with a flexible bond like 3M 5200.

Of course the Ariel was probably not intended to be a blue water cruising boat. There is no such flange on Pearson Ariels through which bolts can be passed, and that mystifies me, but I wanted a Carl Alberg boat and I bought one. I figure that Mr. Alberg had a very good reason for designing the Ariel the way that he did. Those who choose to attempt to strengthen the seam will still be dependent on what amounts to a chemical bond, with no fasteners connecting the hull to the deck. Not to worry; many other successful boats use chemical bonds without fasteners.

The longitudinal cracks evident on my toe rail before I repaired them tell me that that area must have flexed considerably. I wonder if the rather strong "U" shaped but hollow toe rail was designed to flex to some degree to offload the stress on the hull deck seam. If the toe rail was designed to flex in order to offload stress, then filling the underside of the toe rail with epoxy would serve to reduce the ability of that area to flex, and necessarily shift stress to another area.

[ebb]

ole ebb went thru all this befor, you know, and it is appalling the assumptions people can make.
First off, Don't ever think you need a flexible seam in that deck/hull joint. NEVER, ok? This joint HAS to be the rock of Gibralter. 5200 IS fine because it is a real fine adhesive. But you could have done just as well with a 100% solids epoxy and X-mat or cloth or a mishmash of chopped strand.
You can evacuate the paint from the cove inside with an electric drill and carbide burrs of various rounded styles. There are many and they are effective. Even a Dremel tool can be used but the bits tend to be too small, tho the tool itself is light and easy to use.
On 338 we used a Milwaukee 80% angle drill that you hold by grasping the body of the tool. Heavy, but really gets in there. Good design.
I guess I don't know how serious you are about the hull/deck joint. So it's worth finding out what you CAN do - if you are going to do the job right.
The right way for most is the EdEkers/MikeGoodwin method. You have to keep in mind that the hull and the deck at the seam is quite thin. so you can't grind away with abandon for the strip of glass you are going to seal the seam with. I broke thru the inner mat factory layer in many places with a Dremel blade when I was cleaning the crack..NO PROBLEM

The other way is to scrape that inside cove clean of old paint and add a strip of Xmat and epoxy to what Pearson did. Sandvic makes two small scrappers, hand tools, with small staysharp blades that are perfect for the job. One blade is triangular at about 5/8" a side. The other is a 5/8" round.

The problem is: where do you start and where do you stop - if you opt for the inside route. 338, and I don't say this lightly because it took considerable effort, has no cove left at all inside. It was filled, stem to stern with xmat over the seam and then stuffed with triangular sectioned short pieces of mahogany embedded with epoxy and chopped glass and then smoothed on the last pass with e. and cabosil. 338 will never have a leak here. It will be finished off with wood outside rather than that REdiculous 1/2" s.s cove. (which could now be held on with two inch screws!)

If you are not going to tear the whole boat apart like crazy ebb, IMCO the only way to go is the Ekers gambit with a nice mahogany or teak rail that you have tapered gradually and sweetly just a little smaller at both ends. Look SO fine! .......................whatever..............
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[later EDIT] THERE IS A COMPANION THREAD ON THIS SUBJECT HERE IN THE TECH FORUM TITLED............hulldeck joint/and a story

They should somehow be combined or crossreferenced....

[Bill]

The two pro's with whom I have spoken, both recommend cleaning the joint, repairing where the fasteners fail to hold and then bedding with 5200 and fastening back on the ss moulding. Time is money and they quoted $400 to $600. Work guarnteed. Should last about 30 years . . .

[Scott Galloway]

Bill,

As stated earlier, I did all that myself over a period of five days, cleaning out the seam, epoxying the screw holes and sealing the seam with 3M 5200. Finally I rebedded the rub rail with 3M 4200 and reattached the "never needs varnish or oil" original stainless steel rub rail with half inch screws that did not penetrate through the glass into the cabin. I completed the project while the boat was in the water. You have to be careful to bag the stuff that you clean out of the crack, however, if this is done in the harbor. Taping a large plastic bag onto the hull immediately beneath the working area seed to work.

The cost of the above was the cost of the replacement screws and a couple of tubes of the aforementioned 3M stuff.

[Tony G]

Here's what I'm leaning toward. This should add strength, weight and reinforcement for adding that Hinkleyesque toe rail and rubrail...:cool:

[marymandara]

my buddy's renegade had the same sort of issue. he touched up the tabbing a bit, jammed in gobs of epoxy, and thru-bolted the whole thing with nice stainless carriage bolts bedded in splash zone on 12 inch (roughly) centers with nice shiny cap(acorn) nuts inside. no more worries...and it does look butch, to boot.
the bolts are a very effective method...take a look at how the deck is put on an albin-vega 27, for example. those boats are VERY well built...sorta the saab/volvo of small sailboats. bolts and mastic seemed OK to them, so i don't see anything wrong with the idea, myself.

jay spent about 5 hours total on the renegade to do a very nice job of it...for not much money. just another way to throw out there...triton 397 will get the same treatment.

dave

[ebb]

That's going to be SO strong. Are you sure you need so much?

Course you may be going where the Arctic ice floes. Gotta remember the Ariel/Commander group held together pretty good over these many years years with just a one eighth inch butt join.

You could get the same strength you're seeking with a couple layers of x-matt. But not the rigidity. The deck and toerail do an excellent job keeping the boat in rigid shape. You could add mass with a nice teak rub rail.

338 has it's toe rail filled so that it looks like the underside of the deck fairs right to the hull. She will have a mahogany toerail added (therefor it is flat inside to take washer and nut) AND a rubbing strake.

[Tony G]

It's not so much the strength we're looking for but a good backing for screws and a few bolts. If you look into toe rails on the Triton MIR site a Mark Parker (I think) added one in the same fashion I'm thinking. Except he makes no mention of backing in the toe rail cavity. Should give alot more security joggin around the side decks where it's wide as a tight rope. And with a little taper on each end it should look very nice. Can't afford teak, have to settle for mahogany. Of course we'll have to add a rub rail, mahogany also. It'll look good once! I've been planning on using such a long or wide block because I want to keep the screw holes OUT OF THE SEAM. I know- now I'm talkin crazy! A one and a half inch base on the rub rail should get the screws below the seam ( buried in sealant, of course) and yet allow the top edge to cover the hull/deck seam. So what do you think of that?
Oh by the way Ebb, you never posted here what you did with 338's seam. Come on then man-flesh it out.
G:cool:

[Tony G]

I saw an Allerion A4(?) last weekend that had an ash rubrail that looked like cornice moulding. What's up with that? Tried to find some info on them via the www but struck out. I'll go back sometime this summer and get some photos.Yeee!

[ebb]

Someone had attempted to cure the leaks thru the hull/deck join where the s.s. rubrail was attached with tubes of silicone and next size up screws. By then I had learned that silicone soaks an oil-like substance into fiberglass laminate that nothing will ever stick to again. I dremeled every last bit of rubber and then some out of the crack. It looked like I had just about zippered the deck from the hull. Many places you could see clear thru.

Like you did, the cove was cleaned out from stem to stern. I laid mat across the seam and added another layer that over- lapped it and up into and around the cove. Remnants of mahogany were cut into truncated triangular sections about a foot long and imbedded into the cove with mishmash. Used cabosil gel to finish it off flush with the deck, as I said. In the cabin I force glued with carjack and 2x4 the cabin liner to the underside of the deck where it had pulled away*. The fill was finished off flush to the liner. Looks good.

The seam just sits there waiting for us to finish fairing the topsides. And after that bruhaha, a nicely shaped rubbing strake with the inside coved out on the table saw will be mounted over the seam leaving a breath-taking narrow stripe of the hull showing above it and under a very nicely shaped mahogany toe rail. With just enuf cove the strake will cup the changing convex shapes there along that sweetest of sheers. There is plenty of backing for screws and bolts.

The seam will NEVER leak again.

*any water that gets in thru fittings or windows will now forever sit and rot in the space between the liner and the coach roof. Water used to drip out onto the shelves.

[Tony G]

With the new main bulkhead ready to go in I thought I better start addressing the 'seam' before I bury it behind new work. It was no surprise that 99% of the screws holding on the rubrail penetrated the hull completely. I was surprised to find that 80% of those screw holes had some delamination(for lack of a better term) in the factory tape job. The pockets ranged in size from 1/4" to 1 1/2" in diamter and from maybe one layer of fabric and resin to 1/2" deep or all the way through the hull gelcoat! I could actually stick my finger tip through one! Fortunately most of the cavities were isolated to the tape job itself and when ground out I could see the fabric imprint of the deck and hull and they were solid.
Yeah, a dremel tool does actually work quite well for grinding or digging out the funky stuff. I missed my calling, I should have been a dentist. Just put the bit in the hole and let it eat out the rot and when it finds good glass it stops travelling willy-nilly about. Just taper the edge a little to remove any sharpies and you're done, then its just 100 or so more.
On the outside I'm finding about half of the deck/hull seam to be soft and flakey. Same treatment, let the dremel freely eat out the funky stuff and prep for refilling. Only there I mostly ran into GOOD tape behind bad hull. Of course a few spots have nothing good about them!
What I'm wondering is if any of the other artic sailors have seen this on their boats. I'm trying to directly relate the pockets to freezing, thawing, freezing cycles and water seepage through all of those screw holes. None of the holes from sealed deck hardware had this sort of thing happening to the surounding glass, but the rubrail had no sealant behind it and plenty of water intrusion to boot I'm guessing.

[Tony G]

For some reason I didn't take a picture of the really bad ones. It must be selfpreservation lurking in my 'subconscience'

[ebb]

Soft and Flakey, sounds very strange indeed. But if it was water freezing in the seam, how would it get started, seems like it could be so little water expansion wouldn't amount to anything? But there it is. Wonder if water in the deck laminate would do that too?

Your Rx does seem right on. Which is to stablize the hull deck seam with glass and wood first, then come back and excavate the soft and flakey out of there from the outside. With that wood backing you can cut away all of the bad stuff you want. When you've filled it you won't have a hull/deck seam no more!

There is a mighty metal dremel disk that is grit covered with heat relief holes near the rim. It is very aggressive and was responsible for my cutting thru the mat tabbing on 338. Needs steady hands and a good eye but it beats a burr 100% Costs, but worth every dollar. ($15 ?)
Because of the speed of the tool and ease of material removal you can even sculpt with it by drawing it over the work. In the seam. however, you can angle the thin blade up or down thereby undercutting the opening inside, insuring the filler will never come loose.

[Theis]

I went through about the same process as you are doing with the same results.

I then used copious quantites of 3M 5200, putting an approximately 1/16" thick bead around the whole boat (except for transom). The bead is the width of the stainless gunwale strip, so when the strip is remounted, it will cover the 5200.

In three years I have had no problems. On occasion a mooring will pull out a screw, but i simply replace it with a new screw, mounted in 5200.

My understanding that the junction for new boats is frequently secured with 5200. It is strong enough to do that. Where there is a significant hole,, such as shown in your picture, obviously the 5200 "fill" is more, but it is still 5200.

[commanderpete]

I had a problem with rust forming around some of the screw holes in the stainless steel rubrail. I would get rust stains running down the side of the hull.

I took off the rubrails, sprayed the underside with corrosion inhibitor and rebedded them. Didn't completely solve the problem.

The I added mahogany rubrails to the boat and put the stainless rubrails on the outside of the wood. I attached the stainless rubrails using silicon bronze screws instead of stainless screws. So far so good.

I picked this tip up on the Pardey website.

http://www.landlpardey.com/Tips/Tips_1999_August.html

[Tony G]

C'Pete-this is something you've failed to mention until now. Were you planning on hiding the rubrail until someone caught you? Did you feel some would think badly of you for changing YOUR Commander to fit the whims of your own selfish desires? Cast disparages on he who lusts for more wood?! I think not! Come now, ease your soul by the telling of...what ever...
Did you really find a 26' board of mahogany? A crafty 12:1 scarf in there somewhere? How did you fasten that beast? Any tricks or tips you can offer to the rest of us headed that direction? You know the big fear of having more to sand and varnish-will you have to pull your boat annually now? Tony G

[commanderpete]

Rubrails

As usual, its a long story full of conflict, struggle, pathos and ultimately.......redemption.

I'll have to get some pictures and start a new thread.

[Bill]

The stainless steel discussion has moved to the "Stainless" and "Stainless Cont" threads.

[ebb]

That's what I say, too: Move Strainless!!!


C'pete, the rubrail looks Gorgeous. Yes, it does.

That photo of a family living together on a spacious Commander should inspire those couples who want to try it on an Ariel!


Have felt I couldn't make the grade with pardy perfection, if you know what I mean. Thanks for the address, will take a look. (Did take a look, looks like a great site.)

[Tony G]

Theis
You write that you had went through about the same process. Does that mean you also found those large pockets of soft stuff around the screw holes on the inside of your boat? If so, did you just refill them with resin or 5200 and then treat the outside as mentioned? Tony G

[Tony G]

Pete
Smashing idea on the new thread

[Tony G]

Comander Pete,
How about real story regarding your rubrail? You know, details, measurements,etc., etc.. Tony G

That gooseneck 'thing' will probably heal itself. Besides it's supposed to be good practice to sail with just headsail from time to time.

[Theis]

Tony G:

After I had thoroughly cleaned the area, I just used 5200. My objective was to get as much clean surface area as possible for the 5200 to attach to. When the 5200 went through to the inside, I smoothed it out on the inside (leaving about 1/8" thick bead on the inside as a flange)

[joe]

Question for you since you strike me as a very knowledgable and technical guy :) Do you have, or know anyehere where one could find, clear and accurate pics or drawings of an Ariel hull / deck joint?

[ebb]

Joe'
Admiral Bill is the one to ask. It would be good to have the official Pearson specs in a schematic form for this magical joint!

You may have read my objections to it in the text on these pages. It is a butt joint (NO FLANGES) with layers of matt holding the join together. There are obvious thickness differences over the years of production. But it is a mindlessly simple feat of engineering to say the least.

This miracle joint has evidently held the A/Cs together for nearly half a century! So far as I know no Ariel deck has separated from the hull in any shape or form!

I don't believe that any production boat (of course I don't know how other models of Pearson/Alberg hull/deck connections were made) has a simpler connect. Makes me wonder if all the doodah of bolts and turns and flanges and 5200 is really necessary. Except to keep the water out....which was not thought out very well on my Little Gull because the screws for the 1/2" 'rubbing strake' aka stainless steel trim were driven right into the seam causing a number of leaks. Things have radically changed.

338s actual hull and deck connect is little more than 1/8" to 3/16" actual laminate meeting edge to edge
with a varying thickness of polyester matt tabbing that in some places made the join around 3/8" thick.
You have to assume that this is a 'cold' joint as the deck and hull had to be existing befor they were glued, RIGHT? Polyester is not a glue!

All Hail Our Great Goddess: Polly Ester!

[bill@ariel231]

Actually my hull deck joint had failed from the bulkhead forward (during the PO's tenure). two contributing causes... 1. soft foredeck 2. a trip to the beach in a storm.

attached is a cartoon of the joint:

[ebb]

Bill,
Ugly but Beautiful!
Nicely drawn cartoon.
A real pleasure!

Joe,
Try the Search button up top here. There has been a lot of discussion on this subject and a number of fixes and solutions tendered.
I didn't know bill had such a *^#$@$$&$ problem.
Depending on the extent or your refurbishment a fix can naturally be done inside with considerable itch and labor. But a clever way to REbind top with bottom could be or has been invented that can be done from the outside.

[joe]

Thank you for the drawing !! Deeper question. In the area of the main cabin, does the inner liner join at the hull / deck joint. You probably won't believe what I intend to do with that joint !!?? I will make a rouhg drawing tonight and try to add it to a post tomorrow. IF, repeat IF, it all works out right, it should be one of the most beautiful changes to an Ariel.
Joe

[bill@ariel231]

Joe

the cabin liner stops about where the balsa core ends (i.e. it stops 1 inch or so inboard of the toerail). That's right where most of us have the sail track bolted.

Bill

[joe]

Well, HOPEFULLY I'll get this drawing in here. It is a PDF

[seadated]

Does anyone have a close up picture of their hull to deck joint? The boat in san francisco that I was looking at has some minor damage along the joint on the starboard side that's about a foot long. The boat is wrapped with a small stainless steel rubrail to protect the joint, but it's obviously missing in the area where the damage is.

When you guys refit these things, do you just fill and fair the joint, or are you refastening rubrails to the boats? From most of the pictures I've seen it doesn't look like they get put back together with rubrails, and I kind of think they would look better without; it keeps em that much cleaner...

[Rico]

My hull to deck joint is no longer visible from the outside...

I took the rubrail off and made the color transition there instead. I agree with you. I also think it looks much better... But some folks choose to leave the rub rail on. Others choose to add a wood rubrail, which can look pretty good...

The joint has a bit of overlap so it is easy to repair, re-build. This joint is a weak point on any boat, but on Commanders & Ariels it is actually quite strong.

On this board you can find pictures of boats that have been on their sides on the dry for years, or gone onto rocks; ones that have fallen over at the yard, and ones that have done the 'bumper boat' in a marina durring hurricanes. The damage is alway much less than what you'd expect... (and often much less than on other boats!) and in most cases the joint has held strong.

[bill@ariel231]

i elected to replace a missing steel rubrail with a thin line of teak. it has protected the paint on the hull from a lot of scrapes around the fuel dock and other boats wandering about the marina....

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showpost.php?p=11333&postcount=24

keep in mind the original pearson joint was only glassed on the interior, the exterior surface was clamped by the rub rail. if you remove the rail, you will want to glass the joint on the exterior.

cheers,
bill@ariel231 :)


caution... this thread is starting to look like a technical thread

[Commander227]

Seadated,
I just posted some pictures of my new rubrail.
See the last page of Commander227 in the gallery.
Mike

[seadated]

Commander227: That's a pretty elegant solution - it looks a lot more like a rubrail and a lot less like an afterthought than just the plain stainless rail.

Unfortunately, I missed my chance at the commander for sale here in the SF Bay. Now I'm all hung up on these things, so I guess I'll be on the lookout...

[Triton106]

I realize this is a dormant thread but I hope to revive the interest in this topic as the Pearson Ariel/Triton hull to deck joint maybe more vulnerable than we realize. Like most Ariel/Triton owners I held strong convictions that Pearson/Aero Marine (west coast builder of Tritons) built strong boats. Strong enough that many Ariels/Tritons cross oceans and at least one has successfully circumnavigated twice (that being Atom owned by James Baldwin). Many owners have chosen Ariel/Triton because of Pearson's reputation.

However, my conviction started to wane as I dove deeper and deeper into restoring my 1960 Triton 106 Blossom and outfitting it for the blue water. First I noticed that Blossom's hull is not nearly as thick as people say they are. When I replaced several of the thru hulls in the head, under the cockpit drain and the speed log the hull thickness is only approximately 1/4" to 3/8" depending on the location. I also noticed stress cracks all the way around the hull where the anchor locker bulkhead is tabbed to the hull. Still whenever hull deck joint or other similar topics come up in conversations the common comments you hear from the Ariel/Triton owners are usually "yeah the hull deck joints in Ariel/Triton are not perfect but no Ariel/Triton has ever been lost as a result..." That maybe true until I read the loss of another west coast Triton (Vento Dea) recently. Now my conviction in Pearson's construction quality is almost completely shattered. You can read about Vento Dea's story here http://3-knots.com/2013/07/10/staring-into-oblivion/.

The short version is that Vento Dea was lost due to hull deck separation sustained as a result of a freak wave slaming it down on its port side which openned up a 4 foot long and 1 foot wide gaping hole. The pictures that the owner posted on his blog (which are reproduced here) clearly show that the hull deck tabbings are grossly inadequate. You can see that the separation is really a clean break between the hull and the deck as if there were no tabbings there at all. You can see that what the fiberglass mat tabbings there were are no match for the violent force of the wave.

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I don't know exactly how many Ariels/Tritons have made accross the Atlantic or the Pacific but let's assume that number is 20 give or take a couple and the average distance travelled in those 20 blue water voyages is 5,000 KM (approximately a round trip accross the Atlantic or from the west coast to Hawaii) that puts the total distance under sail at 100,000 KM. My concern (which is not the same as conclusion) is that the reason we have not lost that many Ariel/Triton's is not because of the construction quality BUT because Ariel/Triton's just have not crossed that many ocean miles. To put in relative terms 100,000 KM is less than what the Pardeys or Hal Roth travelled by themselves. In addition, almost half of the 100,000 KM is attributable to James Baldwin's two solo circumnavigations which were completed in a very customized Triton. Sure, I don't think Pearson/Alberg designed and built Ariel/Triton's for the blue water. They are probably designed and built for club racing or coastal cruising. That being the case I think it is imperative that we don't over look issues like hull deck joint when preparing an Ariel or a Triton for the blue water.

I looked at my own Triton hull deck joint at several locations (in the V berth and in the cockpit lazarette) and can see that the tabbings are very suspect although I have not openned them up for a closer inspection. After seeing what happened to Vento Dea I definitely want to open it for a closer inspection and potentially redo the hull deck joint using the ideas proposed here by Ebb, C'Pete and others. I am not looking forward to this dreary job but there is no choice in this matter for me.

[ebb]

Guess more than a few tons of wave caved in that hull.
The Triton has a flange join that many other frp production boats copied.
Maybe it could have been more substantial.
But extraordinary force did cause it to 'zipper'.

This thread has a number of ideas that can be used to come up with a solution.
If you are crossing oceans and not removing most of the interior to access the whole seam,
you will be adding something to the exterior.

Might decide to add a vertical build-up of epoxy and glass in a controled molded shape, spanning the seam.
Depending on width over the seam, it probably wouldn't have to be more than 1/4"-5/16" thick.
And then dress it up with a nice mahogany or teak or plastic rail - that is bedded not glued on.
Add mechanical fastenings thru the built-up rail into both toe-rail AND the hull, clamping and gluing it together.*
Imco just sticking it on to a well-prepped surface is not good enough on an old glass boat.

You'll barely get the gelcoat off and discover you haven't much boat left!
Engineer it to be as light as possible, because beefing up sheer can get heavy.
Using a wood like ipe (ironwood) might seem good because of its strength and low maintenance - but it's extreemly heavy. Fiberglass gets heavy too. However, honduras came with our boats - it's a beautiful wood - and it's still available.

Imco, if you are changing the furniture inside, you can design the new built-ins in an eggcrate fashion. Looking at the damage in your photos, I think if that part of the hull had 90 degree partitians, in the form of lockers or shelves, whatever,
the hull might not have been so willing to be bent inward.
I've been playing around with thin sheets of meranti and glass - and believe very strong
(and attractive) interior support for our thin hulls can be made by 'eggcrating' lockers, shelves, mini bulkheads, along the hull.

I would also take an awl to the seam - to see if it's punky. You might also find resin starved areas on your early Pearson, I did on the Ariel.
I wonder if this was behind the problem that VentoDea experienced - and may be an anomaly - rather than a common weakness of design or manufacturer.
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*If going with the redundant clamping idea:
you'll need access to the machine screws inside for nuts and wrench. Won't be able to create a mechanical clamp in many places.
These fastenings will never be removed (or if they are, it'll be part of a major overhaul or resoration.)
So, imco, it's ok to epoxy them in, cover them up. Where no access exists, instead of sheetmetal screws, I'd try tapping holes (in cured epoxy) and driving in 316 machine screws dipped in liquid epoxy! They won't leave a sharp point inside the toerail for a finger to find someday.
And pre-threaded holes make a cleaner maybe stronger connection.

[Scott Galloway]

I read the above referenced blog. That was a bone chilling story. It would be interesting to know whether the damaged boat was an East Coast or West Coast built Triton. The West Coast Tritons I have seen seem to be built somewhat differently than the East Coast Tritons. To my knowledge, all Ariels were built on the East Coast.

On page 1 of this thread, I wrote:

"... I subscribe to the idea that the decks on blue water cruising boats should be through bolted (not screwed) to the hull along an overlapping flange and also sealed with a flexible bond like 3M 5200. ...The Ariel was probably not intended to be a blue water cruising boat. There is no such flange on Pearson Ariels through which bolts can be passed, and that mystifies me, ... Those who choose to attempt to strengthen the seam will still be dependent on what amounts to a chemical bond, with no fasteners connecting the hull to the deck."

After restating that opinion, I have to add that the animal population of the Galapagos arrived on those Islands on floating logs, and that floating coconuts colonized the tropical islands of the world. And so, sailors may venture across oceans in any craft that they choose regardless of whether or not that craft boat was designed for blue water sailing.

John Vigor includes the Pearson Triton, the Bristol 27, The Cape Dory 25, the Cal 20 and the Catalina 27 in his "Twenty Small Sailboats to Take You Anywhere," but not the Pearson Ariel. I suppose that those boats were included in John Vigor's book because some people have actually made incredible voyages in those boats. Not saying that sailors should, but only that some sailors have... and that would be true for the Ariel as well.

[ebb]

The hull to deck seam on West Coast Tritons have approx 3/4" protruding lips - top lip the deck - bottom lip the hull.
I don't know Tritons, and didn't notice. But have search some and found that these lips sometimes were or were not
thru bolted at the factory. Tritons have a history of problems with the joint. On both Coasts.
The ones I've seen on the SFBay have a rubber rail that covers the joint.
I've seen one that has a nice custom-made beige polyethylene deck material (or starboard) cap on it that looks pretty good.

There may also have been Tritons with in-turning lips.
Here, I believe, bolts were thru-fastened from the top, under the wood trim toe rail. Seems like a better way.

Here is Ray Alsup's (National Triton Assoc) essay on his renovation: (maybe somebody can make the direct blueline connection for us?)
google: Alberg Sailboats - Rubrails
albergsailboats.org/about-the-triton/...triton.../hull.../667-rubrails.html




[in case I'm misuderstood, I also believe in mechanically bolting the top of the boat to the bottom.
In my post above, I'm trying to say that on a VERTICAL fiberglass over-the-seam reinforcement of some thickness (like 1/4"-5/16")...
there ought to be bolts thru the buildup on top of the seam AND below the seam.
There still could be fasteners thru the flanges, indeed there probably ought to be.
But I was thinking of bolts going sideways into the hull
and what I see in the photos now... as a short toerail.

If I had a choice, and I had a problem with the joint, I'd use silicon bronze machine screws - and epoxy them in!
Then finish it off with a cosmetic wooden rub-strake plus toerail.
If you go with Ray Alsup,
I'd also consider using Chemlink's Polyether tube adhesive sealants
which bond to more surfaces, probably better UV resistant than 5200,
and won't loose resiliency, no solvents, no out gassing, won't shrink, alcohol cleanup.
And cost about 1/3 of the boatstore stuff]

There are many ways to do this. All of them are going to take some beers.
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Another way to view the damage, is to imagine that the boat didn't only get caved in,
but the that the whole boat for a few seconds was TWISTED by the comber........ and that popped the seams.

[Triton106]

Ebb, I am adding the link to Ray Alsup's write-up on how he strengthened his west coast Triton hull deck join here - http://albergsailboats.org/about-the-triton/national-triton-association/mir/project-show-case/173-256-pegasus-ray-alsup/778-wcrubrail.html. Ray did an admirable job and it certainly sounds strong enough BUT I am not sure if it would be strong enough if slamed by the same freak wave. The reason I harbour my doubts is because the externally turned lips that are typical of west coast Tritons are very narrow. At best it is only 1/2" wide. You can imagine how much holding power there might be if you drill a bunch of 1/4" hole in the middle of this lip. That's why it is probably not the route I would take. Certainly I am not saying it is wrong to take that approach, just not as strong in my opinion as some of the other ideas proposed in this thread. If you really want to get into the theory behind strenghth of machine fastened vs. fiberglassed hull deck joints you can read David Pascoe's article "Screw It" here - http://www.yachtsurvey.com/Screwit.htm.

Scott, to answer your question Vento Dea is a west coast Triton just like Ray Alsup's and mine. I have a drawing of the hull deck joint here. For the reason I stated above (ie. the lip being too narrow) I did not end up using machenical fasteners. I also consulted Tim Lackey before making my decision. Tim also advised using internal tabbing approach to strengthen the joint. I fabricated and clamped "C" shaped mahogany rubbing strakes (I know the drawing says teak but I could not afford it) from stem to stern on the external lip with a ton of 5200 after sanding and cleaning the external joint. For a while, and as long as I only sail inside the SF Bay, it is probably strong enough. I don't imagine that a freak wave could come inside the SF Bay.

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However I do plan to venture out eventually. I have been vaguely planning a solo voyage down to Los Angeles or Orange County as a starter and then Hawaii and back down the road. For these voyages I need something stronger. I am going to first investigate the existing internal tabbings and then decide what to do next. I am reasonablly certain that I would have to redo the internal tabbings. I have been thinking along Ebb's eggcrate idea or something similar to what C'Pete and Tony have proposed here. More to come on this topic.

[ebb]

OK, so when you look at the photos,
the lips coming together wasn't where the separation occured.
In this case it tore apart at the angle where the deck flange turned. Easy to see that it was the
flange turn that zippered. Probably because the deck is not as strongly laminated as the hull.

So can we agree... the weakness in the join is not where the two flanges come together -
but where the two flanges are forced to make hard right turns.
One thing we know is that fibeglass doesn't like point loads and doesn't like sudden changes
in thickness. The glass fibers in the apex of thse tight turns might be broken.
If this is correct, then the sudden out turn of the deck and hull flanges are a weak construct.
The way the boat came apart is the clue.

So is there maybe a fix for this?


Get some 1/2" polyethylene sheet and cut it into 3/4" wide strips. Epoxy doesn't stick to this, so you'll use the strips as dams,
using double sided carpet tape as a stickum.
Maybe you put them on the boat about 3/4" above and below the pursed lips.
Intent is to increase the overall width across the flanges to say 1 1/2" (or a little more) and about as 'deep' as the lips stick out.
This might create the width needed to drive 1/4" holes thru the toerail and the hull for bolts.

How does this tie the lid onto the jug?
Puttty knife a fairly stiff mix of epoxy/cabosil/chopped-strand into the grooves on either side of the lips
Let it set, remove the dams. Round over the new edges, maybe 1/4" - 3/8".
Tape on a skirt of masking paper.
The area above and below the new 1 1/2 + composite now might be filleted with epoxy gel.
With a gererous curve you still can make very economical use of filler and a end up with a
nice clean coved transition between 90 degree surfaces. A lot of fudging at the stern and bow.
This also will probably have to set. It'll get a medium grit sanding to smoothe and even it out.

What's going to tie this together?
Measure (with a strip of paper) a length from the top of the toerail to below the new cove at the bottom.
Make this the width of the first run of some fiberglass TAPE. Tape is great, it has one continuous width and selveged edges.
(Extra thickness built up on the toerail seems a good idea...per our ghastly example of treacherously thin laminate).
Maybe some 4" wide and 3". A series of widths to amalgamate this sculpture together.

Then drill 1/4" holes thru into the toerail and into the hull, maybe in offset pairs. Probably counterbore the heads flush with the top.
Placing these holes is going to be a PITA, every hole will have to be planed.
The tapes you are using create the line and limit of the sheer on the hull. This could be emphasized or
could be faired away by grinding after set. Remember this expanded structure will make shadows that might show hiccups.
Layer different widths on top of each other. Always keeping them in line. Some suggest pasting narrower tapes on first, and gradually wider.
Others say the other way. Experiment, it depends on your technique and the tapes you use.
How many layers? Depends on weight of cloth...3 - 4 - maybe 5 ?
The tapes might be applied in say five foot strips that are wet out first on the work table. Subsequent layers staggered at joins.

After set, grind and sand, fill and fair til it appears to be part of the original boat
If the hull is painted, why bother to imitate gelcoat? Prime and fill with white epoxy primer & paint. Finish the new standoff with hull paint.

Depending how well it comes out,
screw on a nice rail of mahogany or teak. Rout out the back of the rail a bit so that the wood hugs the standoff and doesn't get peeled off
when you're rail down. Drill some small vertical drain holes close behind the wood , not too close to the hull. Flat or rounded, varnished or plain, it'll be gorgeous and strong.

This is merely a bunch of ideas, not a plan of attack.
I agree that if a 50 year old production boat is planed for a voyage, and if it is known to have problems in any major structural area, the
problem has to be taken care of. Ideas lead to other ideas and so forth. No exuses for BSing!

[Triton106]

Ebb wrote:



"OK, so when you look at the photos, the lips coming together wasn't where the separation occured. In this case it tore apart at the angle where the deck flange turned. Easy to see that it was the flange turn that zippered. Probably because the deck is not as strongly laminated as the hull.

So can we agree... the weakness in the join is not where the two flanges come together - but where the two flanges are forced to make hard right turns. One thing we know is that fibeglass doesn't like point loads and doesn't like sudden changes in thickness. The glass fibers in the apex of thse tight turns might be broken. If this is correct, then the sudden out turn of the deck and hull flanges are a weak construct. The way the boat came apart is the clue."

The pictures are not very clear so it is not easy to verify if the 90 degree turned lip is the weak spot. It certainly is possible. Assume that is the case, I still think that stronger internal tabbings could have saved the boat or at least minimize the extent of the damage. I looked up some of the east coast Triton hull deck joint internal tabbings they appear to be much more substantial. The following pictures come from Tim Lackey's Day Sailor Project website. I "borrowed" the pictures because they are the most clear and relevent that I can find (hope Tim does not shut me off from his websites:-)

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Tim wrote,
I discovered that the upper part of the hull was surprisingly thin. Discounting the thickness of the tabbing that had been used to secure the deck and hull together, the upper portion of the hull shell at the gunwale was only about 1/4" or so. The thickness in the bottom, where visible around old through hull installations, is about 3/4". These thicknesses are substantially less than what I have found on #381 Glissando (http://www.triton381.com/)--I found about 5/8" of glass near the gunwale on the port bow when I installed a holding tank vent fitting there, and anywhere from 3/4" to 1-1/4" of glass in portions of the bottom. In the photo, you can see the line between the tabbing and the hull shell, and my finger is there for reference.

Tim is lamenting the thickness of this particular Triton's hull here but we can infer that the tabbings must be close to 1/4" on this particular Triton since they appear to be about as thick as the hull. Although I have not openned up the joint tabbings on Blossom I am fairly certain they are not 1/4" and at several spots they are not even properly bonded to the hull. I will report back once I have had a chance to open it up.

As for the repair I am leaning toward stronger internal tabbing approach, combined with eggcrate idea that Ebb proposed. My main reasoning is that I really hate to take off the mahogany rubbing strakes I installed a few years ago to strengthen the joint from the outside. They look nice and they are functional. Any external tabbing would also be harder to fair and repaint as they would have to be near "perfect". I don't mind taking out the internal shelves and cabinets since I am not too thrilled with them anyway. Taking them out and reinstalling new and stronger shelves and dividers properly tabbed to the hull would make the entire hull deck joint region a lot stronger. Anyway you look at it it is going to be a big job.

[ebb]

Well, of course, if the joint can be reinforced from inside, that is the best way to go.
It's probably, also, the messyest, dirtyest, dustyest, most awkward and time consuming way to go.
BUT, some people, like me, have a knack for doing things the hard way. You too, huh?:D

So, you'll still be using glass tape. but not necessaryly. If your're interested, a couple dimes' worth:

Have succesfully over the years used an E-glass (cheaper than S) product called Xmat.
This is a double bias (Biaxial) NON-woven (non-basket weave) cloth with a thin mat backing
held together with very light stitching.
Reinforcements are plain flat ribbons of fibers laid at 45 degrees to the length of the roll.
A second layer of the same under the top layer crosses the other way. Not woven.
The stitching runs lengthwise with the roll. There is a thin layer of mat on the B-side. Can't wet out the cloth from the mat side.
This material usually comes in heavier weights because of its construction.

It is, however, much stronger than woven cloth of same weight. Glass fibers get crimped as they interweave making woven fabric not as strong. There are less fibers in a given area than biaxial - and therfore more epoxy tends to be used in hand lay-up- which makes it more brittle.
Biax is more fiber compact, yet wets out very easy.
The bias lay-out of the cloth off the roll means that 100% of the biaxial fibers cross a seam. Compared to 50% in woven cloth.

Bias tape also has the fibers at 45 degrees. Comes in various widths from 1/2" to 12". Most common are 4-6-8-12" in 12oz-18oz-and 24oz.
These weights make for a rather stiff material as it comes off the roll. Easy to handle, doesn't pull out of shape like woven stuff.
Biaxial tape is unselvaged. Woven cloth tape has an unravelable edge on both sides of the roll. It is very convenient and precise to work with.

Biax needs a light touch when wetting out with epoxy. Can't worry the cloth at all. The brush will start pulling stitching out. Quickly making a mess.
However, with a pliable plastic spreader held at a low angle you can quickly saturate a flat piece. At the same time dragging excess liquid off the cloth. Then pick the wet piece up and place it on the hull (in this case) with hardly a how-do-you-do. Use gloved hands to press the wet fabric onto the hull. Liquid epoxy does not run out of this stuff.
(90% ispropol alcohol from the drug store and paper towels will cut epoxy off nitrile gloves better and quicker than the toxic canned stuff.)


I'd forget the tape and cut strips off a 50" wide roll. Inside the boat it's about the right length to wet out.... and put up.
Bi-metal utility blade pulled along an aluminum edge.
Custom widths is cool. It's exactly the same stuff as the tape - and probably cheaper.
If carefull you'll be able to wet out the pieces on the flat (settee?) Pick one up and place it accurately over the seam - and press it on with the hands - but only ONCE, because you will start picking op threads and getting strings everywhere. Just leave them alone til dry.
You can use pieces of seran-wrap or wax paper to push this very conformable-when-wet material into crannies, around protrusions and turn corners. the film creates surface tension which helps hold the biax in difficult situations. Leave the surface tension where you've used it......it peels off after set.
(Not all plastic film is polyethylene, so watch it, some films will get glued!

A cheat I've had to use at times while laminating is to have some epoxy gel mixed up, paste it on with brush or spreader
to smooth out depressions or fill holes that the wetted cloth wants to bridge. Always use slow hardener, which may be too fast anyway.


Sorry about waxing this subject on$on..... while I know you know how to do this sort of thing
.....but for newbies who maybe can use a few tips. Opinions.
Working inside a boat means using the cleanest epoxy you can find. I use 100% solids (no solvents) low VOC, 2 to 1, premium laminating epoxy from a local West Coast brick$mortar. Haven't bought WestSystem epoxies for more than a decade - they may have cleaned up their act, but I doubt it. If I had to buy epoxy on line I would buy it from smaller outfits who keep their customer's interest foremost.
My stuff is now over $200 for 1 1/2 gal two part. It's not green, but it's clean: no solvents, no formaldehyde.

Imco two layers of 24oz biaxial with a cosmetic layer of 10oz woven cloth to finish would be more than adequate.
I did not do this for A338 - the toerail is filled in and a single layer of 12oz biaxiel Xmat was used as tabbing to finish it off.
Ariel cabin liner does not go all the way to the hull. making it easier to tab the angled connection of the filled toerail to the hull.
Any weight of wet biax glass is conformable.
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It seems probable that the long rip at the seam of the Triton VentoDea was caused not only by the weight of the comber,
but by the whole boat getting twisted for a second or two. Twist a banana and it'll probably pop open at a skin seam.

.

[Triton106]

Hey Ebb, twisting a banana could do it. In addition, it may have been picked up by the freak wave and body slammed on solid water (is it an oxymoron?) I read somewhere that is how Humphrey Barton's Vertue XXXV cabin house was partially torn open. When a boat is body slammed down the force from the impact seeks the weakest link to release the absorbed engergy. In Vertue XXXV's case it is the cabin trunk and deck joint because it is a wooden construction and is fasterned to the deck by mechanical means. In a fiberglass boat like Vento Dea the cabin trunk is molded as a part of the deck so its weak link is the hull deck joint.

Thanks for the tip on biaxial tape that is exactly what I intend to use. It is alot easier to handle than the standard woven cloth tape although it will still be one messy job. Something I am not looking forward to.

I went to my boat today and took some pictures of the existing internal tabbings on Blossom. I focused on the anchor locker and cockpit lazerette areas since the access there are better than the areas behind the cabinets and shelves in the saloon. The first four pictures are from the anchor locker. Please ignore the rusty screws which I know I should have replaced long ago, but hey we are all human beings. I want to point out the obvious that what we can see in these pictures are the final layer of the tabbings. We don't know how many layers there are or how thick they are or how well they are bonded to the hull and deck. What you can see however is that the final tabbings in the second picture are not bonded to the deck properly, probably due to the deck stringer being in the way. The G10 backing plates and the machine screews and nuts are for the bowsprit I added recently to fly a code zero in light conditions.

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[Triton106]

The next four pictures are from the port and starboard cockpit lazerettes. Please pardon the fuzzy quality of the pictures as it was hard to steady the hands to take pictures upside down in the lazerette. As you can see the tabbings in these areas appear to be different than the ones in the anchor locker. For one thing they are not painted. My speculation is that they were added afterward by a PO who clearly needed a little more practice with fiberglass work. The workmanship is not something I wish to emulate. The bonding to the hull and deck are very poor. I will probably have to grind down this area all the way to the hull and deck which is not a bad thing as it will provide me with some clue as to how many layers of tabbings were used and how thick the total tabbings are in this area.

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[ebb]

In the Ariel that has me, the predominant factory fabric is mat and woven roving (an irish lament:rolleyes:)
When you grind the paint and gunge off the original polyester, revealed is a greenish tone to the plastic. And the the sweet smell of styreen. Epoxy has an amber look sometimes and isn't sweet smelling.
You can recognize the roving by its huge basket weave, and the mat by its translucent and messy look, usually where a prospective boat buyer won't be looking.

The forepeak has some nice work in it - both the factory's and the PO's backing plate.
The backing plates in A338 were easy to recognize squares and rounds of Ariel laminations - all about 1/4" thick.
The Ariel had backing for cleats and hardware. Looks they they forgot plates in your Triton - the bolts do look long enough!
If those rusty bolts are 50years old, they are in great shape! If they are replacements, they
are an inferior grade of stainless like 304. But the rust may be caused by the nut and/or washer being a different grade of steel.

Some of those old repairs look OK, but others look like hurry-ups. Handiwork looks like several different PO's or yard worker's. Some look like epoxy, some polyester. If they are polyester you can probably slip a sharp chisel under an edge and almost pop it off.
If epoxy you might do the same, or at least separate the new from the original with more persuasion.
Can guess there was little prep done previous to pasting the tabs on. Chiseling them off, you'll find, is a lot more fun than grinding. Watch it tho, a sharp chisel can also find a cloth seam in an old Pearson lamination....and before you know it you're peeling the hull!

If you seriously are going to grind on the boat, you have to have tools that aren't going to kill you.
The dust you create will do that. Recommed you cough up some serious cash and get a Festool vacuum, top of the line.
With that get one of their side grinders and also a heavy duty 5" sander.
You have to buy their system, including their sanding disks.
I used a Festool sander for later work in the boat to sand off paint and lamination ridges. The old polyester is tough stuff.
The system draws dust in thru the tool, into the vac, which has a HEPA filter.
You can cook a turkey dinner right next to someone grinding fiberglass. You can work in your boat without a mask ! !
Your tool is wired to the vac - pull the trigger and the vac goes on - release it and the noise shuts down. I see them in the boatyard these days. Fein vacs and tools are a distant cousin to Festool, I wouldn't bother, and they cost too much as well.
The large Festool vac has a huge capacity. You can have the vac in the boat with you, it won't throw glass particles out its exhaust.
Since I'm a curmudgeon, I find the level of German engineering very impressive, but irritating. The worst work on the boat you'll ever do is the prep on the hull.
If you have kids, you'll be leaving the Festools to them in your will. I borrow from the shop at the vineyard here. I've never heard of a problem with any one of them. Treat yourself, your lungs will love you for it!

Would try to forensic the reasons for the obvious repairs in the lazaret.
If you find your hull/deck join is in trouble, and you embark on sealing the seam with tabbing,,,,you will have places you can't get to inside.
I would get an osilating tool with a plunge blade and ream the seam in those places from outside. And refill the seams with epoxy or rubber bonding adhesive.

[Tony G]

Quite possibly the worst job one could undertake on these smallish hulls. Dirty, hot, poor visibility, nearly impossible angles, all compounded by the need to achieve adequate surface preparation so your glass job isn't just a recreation of the previous, marginal job. But do it. You will have all that much more confidence when it comes to one of our boats major flaws. Confidence, or maybe prudence is what we are gaining here, because as you pointed out many of these boats have travelled miles without incidence. Furthermore, any other job you will need/want to do on her afterwards will pale by comparison. Ebb's technique in post #53 would be a great way to address the seam and get the beginning of a sexy rub-rail.

Ebb brings up a point not often enough addressed. Pay for the quality tools up front. This job, done properly, will take three or four times longer than you anticipate (unless you are a veteran at this stuff). I opted for the grind and clean method that involved suiting up in tyvek coveralls, bandana, full face respirator, hearing protection, crawling into the worst spot, grinding until I was either out of breath from exertion or it just got so dusty I couldn't see. then try to climb back out after squirming around into a position completely incompatible with the orientation necessary back out of the route taken in, blow off with a compressor making absolutely sure NOT to wipe any sweat or scratch any itch. Take a quick minute to muster the will and then go back into the mess with the extended shop-vac hose to pickup as much dust as possible. Then if you need a closer look at the area give it a good washing with a simple green solution to see if you're going back in with the grinder or acetone. I may have left out a step or two but you get the picture. It is hard to justify the cost before hand, but, if you are going to do more glass work or modifications it will pay off in the end.

As you are probably well aware of, this site has a wealth of knowledge in its threads. even though some of these threads have been quiet for a year or two, this group was so far ahead of its time the information is just as relevant today as it was then.

[Triton106]

Thanks Ebb, Tony for your timely encouraging words. I just come back from a couple of hours of grinding the worst tabbing job in the Triton history. I was wrong about the tabbings being done by amature PO's. They were done by amature Aero Marine employees! I looked at another friend's west coast Triton (belonging to Rob Heggen). It turns out that the tabbings in his lazarette look similar to mine (i.e. same material and not painted) except his tabbings are done 100 x better than mine and looks the way they should be. Seems like I drew the short straw on the hull deck tabbing.

I figure if I am going to go through this dreary job I might as well start as soon as possible. No sense postponing the inevitable pain. Here are some of the photos I took while I was goint through the port side cockpit lazarette. Starboard side tabbings are in similar albeit somewhat better shape. I noted three types of tabbing problems in Blossom. Firstly, the outer layer is waved cloth. At times they are barely attached to the hull or deck. There is no dbout they have no holding power whatsoever. Secondly, the inner layers are woven rovings that Ebb mentioned above. There are a few spots where I can tell that there are air pockets behind the rovings. I am not just talking about the air pockets in the recess of the toerail. You can see in some of the pictures there are circular shaped voids in the tabbings. Those are results of air pocket after the tabbings covering it has been ground out. Lastly, you can see that the overlap between the tabbings and hull and deck are marginal in my opinion. In some places the overlap is only an inch or two. As for the thickness of the total tabbings I was not able to determine for sure. It appears that there are a couple layers of rovings at least in the lazarette area which is a lot better than I thought. I would like to add two layers of 6 and 8 inch biaxial tape with adequate overlap.

9082

9083

9084

9085

9086

I appreciate the tip on proper tools. I never heard of Festools before Ebb mentioned it. I have not decided if I will get them or not as they are expensive. One question I have is what tool you used and how you grind out the recess under the toerail. There is no way to get into it with an angle grinder. I have not address it. I was thinking of using Dremel tool with some type of sand paper or grinding stone but they don't seem to be the optimal solution. I would like to use something a little more powerful. Any ideas will be much appreciated.

[Tony G]

Those voids look all too familiar. The ones that didn't open with the 4 1/2" angle grinder got punctured with a dremel tool with a burr bit. The toerail cavity was attacked with a 4 or 5 inch diameter wire wheel that I mounted on a 6 inch length of all-thread and chucked the mighty power drill. That pretty much chewed out any unsaturated glass in the cavity. Before I taped the seam each of the voids were dabbed with straight epoxy and while still in a green state filled with thickened epoxy. Then the whole seam got another pass with the grinder with much less aggressive grit before washing. That helped the tape lay flat (as possible) to avoid replacing the original voids with more voids of my making. Hope that makes sense and helps you out a bit.

[ebb]

You know you might get good info from Commodore Triton his self. Rob knows more about Tritons than anyone, and works on them for a living.

Photos show a fine job of prep and the what-looks-like impromptu tabbings look pretty solid and attached pretty good.
Still think that if any of these bandages look suspicious to you, test their adhesion by trying to slip a sharp Stanley chisel under an edge and gently pry on it....see if it wants to lift off. If you can follow the 'seam' with the chisel, I would assume a bad bond and remove it.
When you see those obvious empty white glass flaps (you show a patch of small ones) I'd use the same chisel or a utility knife with a Lenox blade (Irwin has decent bimetal blades) and just core them out. See what they covering up. Fill them with epoxy gell with chopped strand.

The deck in our boats were laminated upside down in a mold. Most of that lamination is OK.
After it was turned right side up and glued to the hull, any additions (by anybody) had gravity and access going against it.
Tabbings overhead might very well sag and make a 'bubble'. I found unsaturated white roving in A338.
Tap any suspicious area, if it sounds hollow cut it out, especially if there is a possible leak. Might have water in it.
You can fill a deep overhead cavity in stages with structural filler, so that the goop doesn't fall out. Fill it a couple times until flat and maybe add a piece of cloth to blend it in.

If you have to do it all at once, this I've done for vertical repair with structural gel.
Have a piece of plywood roughly the size of the repair, with a piece of mylar stapled on in. (Mylar is a 'stiff' film. Backed by ply, it'll makes an absolutely flat surface when braced over a repair.)
Prop this against your freshly gooped depression, press firmly to squeeze the filled cavity flat thereby forcing epoxy into cracks & holes (and extra filler out from under the edges of the ply persuader. If done conservatively, it'll cut your grinding time.)
The trick is to brace it in place with one or more 'spring battens'. Bendy pieces of fir lumber that are just a little longer than any opposite bulkhead, or stringer, or the hull itself...that you are able to bend the batten slightly between the plywood and a hard place....to create firm compression. You want to hold and put some positive pressure on the ply pad... without breaking the battens. More battens , more pressure. Pressure is stronger coming from sticks that are just about to straighten out, but can't.

When set, disassemble - mylar peels away - and you have a glass smooth mirror surface of the filler you used.
You can do this with many repairs, and not just flat (use thinner ply or polyethylene sheet against the hull, for instance). Big diameter coves can be made with pieces of pvc tube, covered with seranwrap or mylar Thin ply can be bent and twisted - using spring battens.
The technique (if it can be called that) compacts the bandage/repair, squeezing fillers and fabric, making a bond as good as your prep.... and you get an almost too perfect surface as reward.

I've added epoxy and glass cloth and biaxial any where I thought the hull could use it.
A338 has a consistently thin hull.... that Pearson did NOT make progressively thicker as they laminated from sheer to keel.
The Ariel hull is mostly 5/16" thick in the turn of the bilge and keel where the 2500lb lump of lead is encapsulated. Quality control problem.

We know polyester is not water-vapor proof. Certainly gelcoat is not water proof. A338 has at least one coat of some sort of 2-part epoxy everywhere on the hull from the water line down around the keel. Much of the interior is epoxy coated up to the sheer.
Awlgripped topsides were prepped and filled with epoxy. The bottom extensively epoxied from waterline down.
Coating olde raw polyester with epoxy will seal and help support the historic polyester. Imco it's the best present you give your classic plastic.
Naturally there will be someone who says polyester needs to 'breathe'.:rolleyes: Prefer the boat to purrrrrrs.

A nice shiney white 'tank coating' will make those diffricult areas of the boat (forepeak/lazaret) easy to keep clean, easy to sponge, easy to illuminate, easy to find sttuff. AND easy to forget those cheap-shots & blemishes that once stared you down.... when its all shiney white.
However, that is another kettle of....epoxy.

[ebb]

To go along with Tony's post.....here's my two feet of electric cord.....
I've had success with SANDING SLEEVES, the ones that slide over a 1/4" shank rubber drum
that you expand by tightening a nut (the wrong way) on top. Not all sanding sleeves are created equal.
You want best quality mahogany-colored aluminum oxide sleeves in coarse grit, like 80 or 60 grit.
So far, I trust Klingspor* abrasives. www.woodworkingshop.com + 800-228-0000

Find the correct diameter drums and sleeves. So that you can clean out both sides and 'bottom' of the cove inside the toe rail with the same effort.
Looks like you can use a range of widths. Ariel toerail cove was quite even, clean and open, probably due to stingy laminations -and a rediculous attempt at bonding the seam with a stingy layer of fiberglas mat..... that worked!
Shorter drums are probably more manuverable, and cheaper to replace.
If you jam them the covers can tear apart....so loose fit is best.
Get more than you think you need, because it's rough going for even a well made sleeve.

Imco your best bet tool for this project is an ANGLED DRILL.
I've nearly wore out my old special order 3'8" chuck Milwaukee angle.** And 100s of sleeves, nearly all coarse grit.
Klingspor catalog has a generic for $59.95 (TZ20000) that maybe's worth trying.
This 55 degree angled design is perfect for boats.
You grasp the body of tool in one hand, it becomes a bionic extension with the working end at an ergonomic slant.
-And the angled gear part of the tool is relatively tidy, allowing you to get IN close and personal anywhere,
including the tight cove up in the corner against the hull.
Don't believe a right angle drill has anywhere near the versatility of a half angled drill.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ............................................
Have never figured out how to freehand a stone bit. They clog or dull or disintergrate immediately.
Equally useless are the conical rasps of different profiles. Too short and dangerous, they come already dulled.
There are carbide coated disks & burrs. Wouldn't use them where I couldn't keep an eye on them. $$$ and wear quickly.
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .............................................
The Klingspor has other helpers:
3" wide rolls of 80 grit aluminum oxide with cloth backing (like SANDING BELT.)
Make yer own sanding blocks with plywood pieces. Stick the two together with 2-sided fiberglass carpet tape.
Make reach-in paddles with thin ply and sanding belt on both faces. (Keep yer fingers out of the cove!)
You lightly score the cloth side with a utility knife and snap the piece off the roll.
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Another great tool used on both wood and glass is a Nicholson CABINET RASP #49.
This is a versatile 7/8" wide half-round rasp-file with staggered teeth on both sides, about 12" long OA with about 9" of teeth.
I use it without a handle for every little task. It's a shame to use it on fiberglass..... but sometimes you have to.
This is a treasured woodworking tool. Expensive. A joy to use, doesn't make much noise, and it's always ready to get you out of trouble.
Don't know who has them right now. Have to find them 'on sale' to afford one.
Get three.
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A Fein type oscilating MULTITOOL would be a safer power tool to use. There are mutiple brands. Not one of the idiot imitators has come out with a more versatile angled design. Right angle tools are OK in a right angle habitat, like house or shop. but have limited use on a boat. (Exception is the dogleg plunge cutter)
Some have a carbide rasp attachment. But I found (the Fein rasp) too coarse to be useful. An imitator may have a mo'betta rasp for the cove. I've really used few attachments that came with 'multimaster kit'.

Haven't tried this: For some of your what-looks-like very narrow coves - maybe carpet taping a loop of sanding belt over a 'dog leg' plunge blade might get into those narrow places. Possible !

[Elsewhere here I've put down the Fein as being WAY W A Y too expensive for what you get, not only the power head but its sanding and cutting attachments have insulting prices. I'd try Harbor Freight. And then look for better bimetal cutters on the internet. You can see what Fein has in the Klingspor catalog. Then look elsewhere. Most after-market blades (Imperial) fit all mutitools. Ocilating multitools are held by the body which quickly get too HOT to handle. Source: forums.]
If you have a Bosch multi and want a plunge cutter, try their new Carbide Blade OSC114C - actually cuts metal ! :eek:

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*Klingspore are the progeny of Klingons:D

** McMasterCarr has a Milwaukee 3/8"chuck 3.5Amp 55degree angle drill (0370-20) = $132.50
[Brutilized my 15yearold, never replaced anything, altho the cord at the tool is leaving - dislike gear chucks that have to have keys attacht to the cord.

[Triton106]

I stopped by Blossom this evening to test the fit of the Tide's Marine Strong Track I received yesterday. I will post the installation of the strong track and Code Zero furler in a separate thread once I am done with them. Anyway, it was blowing 20-25 knots gustting to 30-45 in the marina when I got there. The marina is situated in the Oakland Estruary on Alameda Island. It certainly was not an auspicious night for working on the hull deck joint. But ever since I read Ebb's suggestion I have been wanting to test the soundness of the bonding of the hull deck tabbings with a sharp chisel. One reason I feel this is important is that when I looked at Vento Dea's hull deck damage I can see that the fiberglass tabbings appear to have been ripped clean off the hull, indicating a very poor state of bonding.


As you can clearly see from the pitctures below the tabbings between the anchor locker bulkhead and deck on Blossom are also not well bonded. I could almost tear off the outer layer the entire length of the bulkhead by hand. The tabbings between the bulkhead and hulll are in better shape. However, I still would not know if they will survive a knock down by a freak wave. So my plan is to cut out the entire bulkhead and make a new one. I will then reinstall the new bulkhead in a ring of foam cushion between the bulkhead and the hull and deck. In addition, I also intend to install two longitudinal stringers that run the entire length of the v-berth and the anchor locker. As I mentioned before, when I painted the hull a few years ago I noticed stress cracks in the gelcoat all the way around the hull where the bulkhead is. I suspect the lack of the stringers to support the forward hull and the tabbing of the bulkhead directly to the hull are the main reasons for the stress cracks.


9088

9087

[ebb]

That's amazing.... and instructive!
If those tabbings are factory, ie original, then it's textbook that polyester is not a glue.
And therefore you cannot expect a bond when using polyester resin to tab a cold seam.
If the tabbing was 'after market', and the resin used was epoxy.... then prep, or DFO, or resin, can be to blame.

May have had a discussion on a thread here once about bulkheading (Tony G?).....
The main aguement for 'floating' a bulkhead is that you (hope to) avoid point loading.
In other words, if you install a plywood bulkhead tight to the hull,
you're going to create the problem (like Pearson did), such as you describe with gel coat grazing on Blossom's hull.
The bulkhead is 'photographed' on the exterior hull.
Textbook technique is to space the bulkhead off the hull by, say, 1/2" and attach it floating to the hull with tabbings. To avoid the hollow, you'd use 1/2" foam rubber strips to get form fit....and tab away. But running fillets on foam gasket could be problematic.

This may be good for major bulkheads. It definitely spreads the point load. And would work.....but I'm not total on that.
I'm an egg crating fan, (mostly persuaded by what I considered is the starved hull on Ariel338) and therefor worked in a number of minor 90degree web intersections with the hull - lockers, mostly in the galley and accommodation.
It seems unneccessary to offset all these minor bulkheads.....with foam. Because one could argue that there are multiple sharing point loads spread out over an area of the hull.
The hull would have to be very thin indeed to photograph web construction thru the hull. Depends on your definition of egg-crating!

Imco the crazing on your hull comes from the hull being unsupported on either side of the bulkhead.

LittleGull's hull had horizontal hollows on either side of the STRINGER - a mahogany 2X2 tabbed to the hull about 15" down from the sheer - the stringer stopped abruptly at the main bulkheads: mast and cockpit. I added 'extensions' to this stringer running into the V-berth forward to the bow - and aft from c'way blkhd to the lazaret blkhd behind the cockpit.
litlgull also had vertical hollows on the hull forward of the mast blkhd, where there were no stringers. - extending below the waterline.
Wanted to even the stresses of the stringer's obvious pointload out to the ends of the hull. Wasn't going to remove them.
A338 topsides hollows became evident when I spent two months endlessly filling, fairing and long-boarding prior to painting. [Ebb'sGallery pg7#126 & pg10#126.] However the 'bumpouts' on A338 didn't show any gelcoat crazing per se'. But long-boarding removed gelcoat on all the highpoints.....bulkheads and stringers.
The hull's permanent topography happened when it was being laminated. But it's fixable cosmetically if you go to the trouble of arduously filling and fairing. They are, perhaps, more unsightly than dangerous. Original blkds now have added tabbing, and all furniture is tabbed or filleted in web or box like constructions.

Could argue that a line of gelcoat crazing showing up on the hull is a sign of stress....of glass laminate in the hull stressed continuously, and might act as a zipper and open the boat up....on a dark and stormy night. VientoDeo's hull zippered open, not at the seam, but above the seam where glass was forced into a radical angle to make a flange.....obviously broken strands of glass there. They broke during layup 50 years ago.
Cove fillets are called for where glass lay-up changes direction.
And stopping the tabbing on the hull is done gradually...tabbing is always stepped to the hull.....espeially at major bulkheads.
It's plausable that a Triton or Ariel rigged and loaded for cruising, punching through waves where it experiences dynamic forces on its quarters, on its mast and rigging - or yanked by mooring loads - grounding on shore....... can TWIST and zipper open hidden and unintentional construction seams.

Didn't remove major bulkheads in the Ariel , some sloppy tabbing came off easy, tite stuff I left on.
But both cabin bulkheads in A338 were substantially altered.... the main under the mast (and the lower shroud 'knees')... and at the companionway where nearly half was removed to create a quarter berth (but with an added wide 'rib' constructed where the blkhd had terminated.
The cheat was to add wide fillets and mutiple tabbing on either side of the original bulkhead. Thinking is that would spread the pointload of the original that was glued in hard (without a space.)
This is where bialial tape, or strips, was used. Did it backwards from norm by filliting first,
then laying in a narrow strip, then wider strip, then finishing with the widest....thereby ending with fairly smooth super tabs. If you can't do it all at once, dry edges can be reduced/faired - easily if still green - with BACHO 625ergo carbide scrapers. "Don't go down to yer boat without them!"
They come with belt holsters too!:D

SUGGESTION for a new major bulkhead:
I think, altho didn't have the opportunity in A338, that pointload from a new hard plywood bulkhead can be reduced or eliminated
by first laying down graduated biaxial strips on the hull where the bulkhead is going. Eg: 2"/4"/6"/8".
In other words strengthen and support the hull and spread the load befor a nicely fitted ply blkd goes in. Finishing off with similer graduated tabbings from bulkhead to hull. Imco strapping the hull like this might enable the hull to resist twisting. Of course, this is all opinion.
Using biaxial will allow neat work on compound shapes because you can tease the material ... into neat straight lines of buildup.
Neat enough anyway, so that grinding is kept minimum. "This ain't no grand piano..." as a carprenter once said to me.
Aye know...aye know...but it is..... Blossom!

[Triton106]

Been away for a while.

I did make some progress in the meantime. I finished retabbing the hull deck joint in the lazarette. After grinding out the joint I filled the low spots (especially the cavities in the toerail) with thickened epoxy. I then retabbed the joint over with two layers of 5" and 8" biaxial tape. I did not take any pictures as I was rushing to get it done but I did spot a couple of white spots which indicate to me air bubbles under the tape. I am a little disappointed by that but overall the joint is much stronger than it was before. I hope I will never have to find if it is strong "enough".

In the anchor locker I likewise ground out and then retabbed two spots under the deck that had been poorly tabbed at factory that I mentioned in my ealier post (see pictures in that post). That was straight forward. On the other hand, the bulkhead deck joint was a little more interesting. I was able to pull large pieces of outer tape (weaved cloths) off by hand and was able to easily chisel out the remainer. The inner tabbing was made from fiberglass matt most of which were not properly wetted out (much like the pictures in Vento Dae). I was able to chisel that out fairly easily. For the most part the tabbing came off cleaningly, only a small piece of plywood came off with the inner tabbing. It was so clean that I had a second thought about replacing the bulkhead.

Thanks Ebb for the detailed treatise on proper bulkhead installation. A lot of timely and good ideas to think about...

[ebb]

Don't know if the old adage 'looking a gift horse in the mouth' works here. It's not about how rotten the boat is. Maybe it's about which end of the horse we're looking at.

Knees in the Ariel were pieces of exterior plywood (thick lams with voids in the middle - but nicely tabbed) at right angle to the hull which brings the plates up thru the deck also at a right angle to the toerail.
Found that to be backarseward and ended up with macho plates slapped on outside the hull, parallel with the toerail and loads on the bolts.
Read once that the weight of the boat should be able to be supported, HUNG, by the rigging.
Took that as gospel and way overbuilt what littlgull has now. Probably too much.

Just heard this one...
There were these three guys going to the quillotine during the French Revolution:
a priest, a drunkard and an engineer. "Any last wish," asks the guillotinair to the first.
"I'd like to go face up to God in heaven, where I'm going," says the priest. The great
knife falls.... but stops short of slicing his head off. "It's a miracle!" yells the crowd,
"Set him free! Set him free!" So he is let go. The drunkard is next, and he says,
"I wanna go to heaven too, face up for me." Same thing happens, the knife stops
just befor it chops off his head. It's a miracle! It's a miracle! set him free! So he's let go.
Now, it's the engineer's turn. "I want to go face up, too..!" Just as the executionor is
about to pull the lever, the engineer yells, "Wait, wait, I think I see what the problem is.":D

[Triton106]

LOL... Ebb, that's a good one. Being an engineer myself I admit us engineers love to solve problems regardless if the problem needs to be solved or not, who will benefit, how the solution will be funded, etc, etc... I also admit in many ways I approach boat projects the same way - solve problem first, define goal later, if ever. Sad isn't it? But you live and you learn. I am getting better at defining goals first and then finding solutions.

I think someone must be eating my postings. For two days in a row now I have posted new postings and verify that they are posted only to find later in the day they are deleted for some reason. Maybe they were not posted correctly. This will be my test posting to see if it will disappear again.

[Bill]

T106, the subject here is hull to deck, not the restoring of a particular yacht. Please search to find an appropriate thread for other subjects.

[Bill]

Peter Theis (Solsken, A-82) wrote the following Email in response to a notification that there were new posts to the deck joint thread. I believe he wanted this conversation posted to that thread – Peter is asking for comments.

-Moderator
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Here's a comment from one of my sailing friends. The crew dropped his Renegade off the hoist as I recall. That is the fall he is talking about. He got a new boat out of that disaster.
Peter

-------- Original Message --------

Subject: Re: Reply to thread 'Deck joint-Who, What and When'
Date: 03 Dec 2013
From: Rex Miller
To: Peter Theis


Not having seen the joint on your boat it is hard to assess the applicability of the thickness. On my Renegade the hull turned in and the deck was epoxied to the top of the turn. Not super thick. It was thru bolted through a hollow toe rail but the bolts did not go through the deck lip as I recall. No amount of tightening would stop leaks at the through bolts. The jib sheet car track was on top of the toe rail, compounding the problem. The hollow had been filled with a goop that dried over time. Tightening the bolts just collapsed the toe rail. I fixed the problem by making stepped aluminum blocks with a 1/4 inch step 1/2 and inch wide to address the thickens of the deck section.

The major damage to the Renegade when it fell was at the deck to hull joint splitting for over 8 feet. Within one inch of the outboard edge the deck became cored and was substantially thicker until it reached the coach house turn. The stability of the monocoque hull relies on the hull to deck joint so relying on a small surface area, of less than a inch wide, of contact area, which to boot would have be a secondary bond. It was in my opinion a poor and inherently weak design at that critical junction. The failure described below does not surprise me in adverse conditions.
Had the joint been shoe box joint it would have supplied much greater strength.

The Ariel, Renegade and the Triton were similar designs and had much in common and much to commend them, but not the construction of the hull to deck joint. The 5200 would add some strength to the joint as it is primarily an adhesive.

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:23 PM, Peter Theis wrote:

I'd be interested in your thoughts on this disaster. When I rehabbed my Ariel, the baby brother to the Triton, I used a Dremel tool to establish a groove outside of where the deck and Hull were joined. I had had leakage through that joining but never a clear break. I filled the groove with 5200 to join the deck and hull and close any leaks when the boat was healing. It seemed to have worked, at least so far. The deck overlay creating the gunwale where they join is very thin and there is not much for the epoxy or the 5200 to adhere eight at the juncture.

[Triton106]

Ok, that explains the disappearing posting mystery. I commend the Forum for its discipline. At the same time it would be nice to get an explanation or at least a note to the effect. I literally posted the same postings three or four times thinking that I must have done something wrong in the posting process.

[Triton106]

Wow, another case of a torn hull deck joint albeit from an accident. I don't know the details of the fall but can imagine that the force of the impact from the side of the hull deck hitting the water must be similar to the force created from a slamming by a freak wave. The bottom line is this Renegade hull deck joint was not strong enough to survive the fall. The natural question is then could any Triton/Arial/Commander/Renegade survive such a fall. I don't know the answer. The bottom line for me is that they need to if you intend to take the boat offshore, which is the reason why I am going to process of adding additional tabbings internally to the hull deck joint. If you are just daysailing or racing around the boyd then all you should care is if the hull deck joint is leaking or not, unless your boatyard drops your boat from the travel lift in that case you might be lucky and get a new boat.

[ebb]

EBB HAS TO ASSUME THAT THIS POST IS NOT ON SUBJECT


Postings don't just disappear here without some notice from the owner

of where ho put them.

Sometimes things like pictures disappear when the owner finds them in poor taste.


But I for one have not been aware that what anybody is saying

EVEN IF IT'S INAPPROPRIATE TO THE STATED SUBJECT OF A POST

has just been summarily erased. So, the missing posts have been moved to a more appropriate THREAD......

WHERE?

[ebb]

173 Renegades - designed by Bill Shaw - were built by Pearson between 1967 and 1969 after they replaced Carl Alberg with Shaw.
The boat has quite different underbody than an Alberg A/C or Triton in that the keel is more fin-like and the rudder is detatched from the keel, in a free standing spade.
The Shaw design represents a departure from Alberg/Pearson keel hung wooden rudders to fiberglass.
Leaves the inboard Atomic 4 propeller completely exposed.
Ballast ratio is different also. While the Ariel/Commander ratio of ballast to displacement is about 50/50 - the ratio of the R. is 1/3 ballast to 2/3 disp.
Renegade is 27L - 21 LWL - 8.5B - 4.25D. Ballast 2100lbs. Displacement 6500lbs.

However, Pearson's hull-deck join - evidently after thousands of these boats alone - never was engineered or upgraded correctly during these three different model runs. It's a Pearson thing.
While all of them were sold as bluewater capable boats, it's obvious now when these old glass boats are involved in accidents that test the mettle of Pearson construction methods
that this most important connection, hull to deck, of these boats is seriously FLAWED.
And just as seriously not usually recognized by restorers, renovaters, and owner-voyagers.

Maybe the age of these boats has something to do with the serious destruction of the fiberglass seam in these recorded accidents.
Maybe it's new. Or maybe it's showing up more as we ask more of these boats. Imco age has something to do with it.


Maybe these starved seams - with fiberglass strands turned at crushing angles - are getting tired?

If there is TWISTING of the boat as it's being sailed or
stored improperly braced on the hard....perhaps both passive and active stress can weaken these minimalistic hull-deck seams?


There are some solutions discussed here in this thread that Rex Miller might be made aware of.
But it looks like he has another boat.

Sincerely hope that Theis is well and enjoying life. Very much miss his input here on Pearson Ariel dot org.
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An overall easy solution for these flawed hull-deck seams wants further discussion.

First, it has to be recognized through example and discussion that this is (or is becoming) a dangerous problem.
Rex talks about the Pearson monoque fiberglass design as seriously flawed at the hull-deck seam. Put that way, it shows how weak and meager
the seams are on these three class models.
Better in all cases would have been a simple lap joint, 'shoe box' joint, one over the other. Glued & bolted. No ifs, angles, or butts at all.
The laminate schedule on A338 left a thickness of 1/8" toe-rail BUTTED to a 1/8" hull. Seam covered with casual thicknesses of matt ! ! !

Any fix is going to take time and money.
Have a feeling that a fix for our boats that physically bonds toerail/deck to hull - from the outside -
maybe wraps up and over the toerail....
is the easiest and best way to approach it......
for everybody rehabbing a Pearson Alberg or Shaw cruiser for bluewater sailing.

Be great if there is even more input on the subject here.

[Triton106]

Well put Ebb!!!

I don't know the primary culprit for the Pearson A/C/T/R hull deck joint weakness discussed here. I don't know if that really matters. The bottomline is that they are not strong enough to survive a freak wave or a fall from a travel lift. I am much more interested in efficient and effective ways to address the issue. I think the three basic solutions as well as any permeatation of the these solutions are all acceptable. The optimal solution depends on the specifics of each boat. Just to be clear, the three solutions discussed are (1) adding internal tabbings to the hull deck joint, (2) adding external tabbings, and (3) using machenical fastners (machine screws and nuts, not pop rivits).

If I remember it correctly there are at least three A/C owners (Ebb, Tony, and someone else) mentioned that they used internal tabbings in this thread. I have also chosen this approach. The advantages of this approach is that it does not have to be faired smoothly and painted perfectly as external tabbing would require. It just has to be strong. The disadvantage is that grinding existing tabbing inside a small cabin or cockpit lazarette is a nasty job that no one should have to endure. And it can only be done after you tear down all of the existing shelvings and cabinetries.

I don't remember reading anyone in this thread using the external tabbing approach but Hal Roth famously described his external tabbing experience in his books (obviously he had a different boat). I also know another east coast Triton owner (Steve Cossman) used external tabbings to strengthen his hull deck joint (I think it was done by a local boatyard - Svendsens in Alameda.) The advantage of this method is that it is much easier to grind and apply fiberglasss tabbings from the outside. One point that makes the east coast Tritons easier to apply external tabbings is that the hull deck joint is a butt joint AND the toerail is rounded off on top which makes it a lot easier to fit the biaxial tapes over the contours. The disadvantage is that it is more demanding to fair and paint the new tabbings since they are external.

I only know one Triton owner used mechanical means to fastern his hull deck joint. That was done on a west coast Triton which has externally turned lips on both hull and deck. So the owner drilled quarter inch holes and fasterned hull deck joint with machine screws and nuts. He then capped the whole joint over with a hollow rubbing strake. The advantage of this method is the machenical means are easier to see and it just feels more solid because you don't have the issue of not knowing how well the new tabbings are bonding to the old fiberglass. The disadvantage is that you need overlapping hull deck joints to be apply the screws to. The butt joint common on east coast Triton and A/C are not condusive to this method of fixing.

In addition to these three basic solutions some owners have used combination of two approaches. Ebb's idea of adding internal tabbing and then bolt the new tabbings down to both hull and deck on each side of the joint is a great example. It wil certainly create an extremely strong joint. The disadvantage is that it is a lot of work and it will introduce more holes in the hull. I have also read other people adding additional tabbings internally and externally which would also create a very strong joint. Again the disadvantage is that it is a lot of work. I am sure that there are many other potential solutions and combination of these various solutions. I would be very appreciative if more experienced people can show me other possibilities that are more efficient and easier to apply.

[ebb]

Thinking of the Triton owners I have breakfast with every first Sunday of the month......
Known as the Alberg Design Fleet of San Francisco Bay ( it's a change-up
of the S.F. Triton Assoc.) http://albergsailboats.org/about-the-triton/national-triton-association/mir.html
....there's maybe one skipper who might be persuaded to rehab the seam.
Remainder are more interested in what to cap over the seam with as a rubrail.
(which ranges from teak to recycled polyethylene flooring.)
Some kippers will venture out into the ocean to Drakes Bay, three are planning a voyage to the San Juans in 2014.
I wonder what they think about the seam.....?
Rob Bordering is the administrator. And he is someone worth asking about this serious matter.

On the ADFSFB site look up Alberg Sailboats - Maintenance, Improvements & Restorations
Which is archived from the now defunct National Triton Association.
One entry on the seam but it's cosmetic. Haven't searched thoroly.
Another source might have been TimLackey www.lackeysailing.com/ AND www.triton381.com/
I don't believe the hull/deck seam issue ever came up.
Also James Baldwin www.atomvoyages.com/ has a very generous site for cruisers - and has accomplished
TWO CIRCUMNAVIGATIONS without (so far as I know) a whistle or a whisper about the seam !
[later EDIT] http://plasticclassicforum.com/forum has a Triton thread. Scroll to bottom of lead page to Miscellaneous Topics.
150 entries, but nothing specific about the hull/deck seam being a problem.

Basically, it looks like you will have to choose and invent your own method.


Obviously, biaxial glass can be used inside up in the cove - if your boat is stripped of everything but the main bulkheads
(which I personally would NOT rermove.) I'd work around them - especially if your boat is one with a starved hull.
If you are rennovating the inside with a mind to restoring it, your option is to build up the hull/deck lap seam from outside.

Clean up the outside seam by grinding and sanding. I'd get it nice clean & crisp with outer lip edge flat and right angled.
Whatever it protrudes from the hull: 7/8"- 3/4"?, get it fairly equal around the boat. Imco it's OK to reduce how much it sticks out....a little.
Then I'd ream the seam....probably with a 1/4" straight bit in a router fitted with a fence.
Go about half way in only! Then jam it with epoxy, fumed silica, chopped strand paste (after first slathering the open joint with liquid epoxy.)

That takes care of the seam. Let it set and clean it up. Then it's up to you.
If you are going to use biaxial tapes, you have to decide to what extent reinforcement you want.
I think about wrapping the joint from the top of the toerail over the joint protrusion, and stopping at the hull just where it tucks under.
Seriously consider epoxying in a mahogany filler strip (approx 3/4" x 1 1/2"?) that sits on the protrusion shelf and fills up to top of the rail.

Round over the wood and bottom lower glass lip ....[Ebb's schedule: tape the first run flat along the wood filler and the lap join, stem to stern.
Second tape goes from the bottom of the protrusion butted at (NOT turned down) the hull, wraps up over the first tape to the top edge. Biaxial does one turn.
Third tape goes from the toerail top ( NOT wrapping down to the deck) down over the first two - not tucking under to the hull. Another single turn. Three over the seam. Easy layup, easy to grind off the extras - to fill and fair - and get a clean molded look. Maybe need to use a long sandig board. Extra layer(s) could be added, for instance along the top where track might be added later......Just an idea......
Going down onto the hull itself is a can of worms. Impossible to fair for Awlgrip. I'd keep the wrap off the hull - AND out of the deck scupper.
Could add a final woven glass fabric over all... but you can't sand into it. Add back a substitute 'gel coat' of a white epoxy coating, 2 - 3 coats, to finish.

[A shippy thing to do:] gradually reduce the double lip protrusion (and wood filler strip) toward the bow and stern. Not all the way off!
Maybe last third of the run toward the bow and last one quarter of the run toward the stern. It's minimal but it'll show. Round edges and wrap.
The top will be reduced in width going forward and aft, and look mmmm mmmm good, like Alberg would!

It'll end up overall with a nice wider toerail that can be capped with varnish work.... as some Tritons are already.
Fair the vertical part of thw new sheer & screw a wood strake on it, OR better, paint it like the hull, like it came from the factory that way.
Finish it off by adding on half round rubrail, stainless or ipe.

It's not exactly a feather edged glass job. If Pearson left laminations thin at the top of the hull, backup baxial could be added INSIDE behind the sudden stop of the expanded toerail - layered in graduated widths. Could work imco. Good luck.

[Triton106]

Happy Holidays Everyone!

Ebb, you made a compelling argument and offered a great technical solution for external tabbing as a solution for externally flanged hull deck joints such as the west coast Tritons. If the particulars of my Triton and the sequence of restoration projects had been different I would seriously consider this option. Alas, that is not the case. I am moving forward with internal tabbing as an alternative solution.

Having almost completed the project in the lazarette and v-berth I have learned and relearned some of the lessons I want to share with others who might be considering a project like this.

1. As much as possible improve the project working condition by getting the right tools, the best eye, ear, and breathing protection equipment you can afford in advance of starting the project. Grinding fiberglass in the lazarette and v-berth is a miserable job. Do your best to make the condition as tolerable as possible. Ebb and Tony already mentioned some of the ideas. I used DeWalt angle grinder that I already have and I wish I could afford the Italian angle grinder that Ebb mentioned but it costs almost $600. One tool that help me a lot in grinding out the toe rail cavity is the 6 inch coarse wire wheel. No other tool could reach that area. Thanks Tony for that idea!

2. After cleaning up wet out the joint with epoxy AND, very importantly, smooth out the existing tabbing edges and uneven spots with thickened epoxy. Unless you are extremely fortunate there will be many areas that need to be evened out. I did not do a thorough job of it in the lazarette and ended up with a couple of air pockets which you want to avoid. It would also be very helpful when you wet out the fiberglass to lightly coat it with slightly thickened epoxy. West System book mentioned this point which I did not thoroughly appreciate why until now. It make the bonding with existing glass so much more stronger, especially you are glassing the tabbing upside down.

3. I would also avoid 1708 bixial tape without the mat backing. I strongly prefer 1808 with mat backing. The 1708, when wet out, becomes a limp soggy mess whereas the 1808 has a lot more structure and is much easier to massage into the awkward space in the toe rail cavity. I also believe the 1808 is a lot stronger. Ironically, I paid $28 for 2 yards of 1708 at Svendsens and only $24 for 2 yards of 1808 at Tap Plastics.

Here are a few pictures of the finished internal tabbings in the v-berth. As you can see I removed the original anchor locker bulkhead. The lower part of the plywood has signs of rotting and delamination. I plan to move the bulkhead forward 6 inches to make the v-berth more hospitable for taller people as the existing v-berth is only 6 feet long. Not the least it makes the tabbing project so much easier. I cannot imagine grinding fiberglass wedged inside the anchor locker.

One more detail to note - careful reader might notice that the upper and lower edges of the fiberglass tape are not even in some spots. It is not because I did not cut the tape evenly, the tapes are exactly 6 inches in the first layer and 8 inches in the second layer. They are uneven because the toe rail cavities are not uniform. Some areas the cavity goes all the way up, other areas the cavity is very shallow, all depends on how well the original factory worker applied the original glass job. This is another reason why internal tabbing is easier because no one will see the uneven finish. I am sure Ebb and Tony would have gone back and finished the edge just so perfectly. But craftsman like Ebb and Tony I am not. I am just a sailor who is trying to make his boat more seaworthy.:o

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5487/11543226876_6c0b2dfa32_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3732/11543088695_3c1bd1b36d_c.jpg

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7348/11543241373_cd9982e37a_c.jpg

[ebb]

Can't see that it looks uneven. Don't know how many laminations you have there,
but if your hull is as skinny as my Ariel, which is/was about 1/8" at the sheer -
with the deck lam a little thicker in the turn of the toerail to the seam -
it wouldn't hurt to add a wider tape to build up the hull.

[Just looked back at Tim's surgery of his day sailor that you posted here = pg 3 #54.
For the first time SEE that the Triton hull/deck seam in his photo is a BUTT-JOINT.
Not the usual out-turned Wesy Coast Triton lap join we are talking about.
His text says that what we're looking at is 1/4" laminations - but it sure looks thicker than that.
It's obvious we are looking at an early version of the joint that all Ariels and Commanders have.
The apparent thickness of the lams we see may be due to the build-up of added glass tape or most likely glass matt that supposedly bonds the hull/deck seam.
Part of the illusion of thickness is due to the way the deck is constructed.
It's amazing what the lamination in way of the toerail was asked to do while gluing that deck
(and the whole cabin/cockpit structure..... the whole top of 600(?) East Coast Tritons......with some piddley strips of glass matt.:eek:]

The deck, of course, gets much thicker going inboard, because it's stiffened with mutiple lams of glass and/or plywood. [Balsa core on A/Cs]
So, complimentary build-up along the sheer, just below the sheer on the hull, might be wise.
Also, when you add back the anchor locker, you can extend wider tabbing on to the hull. Both from the bulkhead and also imco in adding strapping to prevent photgraphing (bulging) of the bulkhead on to hull* - that is if your hull is truly skinny.

You will be adding color back in the form of epoxy sealer over the polyester.
If you are living onboard for extended times, you might be adding insulation (Ariel discussion forum.)
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................................
* this pre-tabbing is strickly an idea. Haven't done this myself in way of a bulkhead on A338.
Did add in a full "crash bulkhead" between the mastbeam bulkhead and the anchor-locker blkhd.
Did not strap the hull first with layered tapes, but probably should have. Don't believe it's standard practice even on 'oil canning' hulls.
Felt at the time that the photographing of bulkheads and stringers so evident on the Ariel 338 hull, happened when the boat was newly being laminated and assembled.
Thinking was at that time that the new blkhd installed with spread out glass tapes wouldn't be prone to expressing itself thru the old fiberglass. Not so sure, now. Hate to have it show up as a shadowy ripple in the glossy topsides.

Am sure that any glass sailboat in its life is subject to TWISTING - and major events are expressed in unintentional seams zippering open and laminations peeling apart. That's how I interpret what we see in your photos, pg3 #48.
Am not an engineer. Is it possible
that new construction in an old production fiberglass boat can print through? The "print" being a future zipper disaster waiting to happen?
50 year old plastic is about as hard as it's ever going to get....but the boat is wearing, getting older, getting brittle..... compared with the very same newly laminated hull back in the 1960s.... that had give to it, even tho the frp was set.
It's expensive to err on the side of caution.....with high priced resins & fabrics. Extra reinforcements has to be good for the boat..... and the brain......

[Triton106]

Ebb wrote:
[Just looked back at Tim's surgery of his day sailor that you posted here = pg 3 #54.
For the first time SEE that the Triton hull/deck seam in his photo is a BUTT-JOINT. Not the usual protruding Triton lap join we are talking about.
His text says that what we're looking at is 1/4" laminations - but it sure looks thicker than that.
It's obvious we are looking at an early version of the joint that all Ariels and Commanders have...


As far as I know east coast Triton hull deck are joined together via butt-joint and west coast Triton have externally flanged hull deck joints.


So, complimentary build-up along the sheer, just below the sheer on the hull, might be wise.
Also, when you add back the anchor locker, you can extend wider tabbing on to the hull. Both from the bulkhead and also imco in adding strapping to prevent photgraphing (bulging) of the bulkhead on to hull* - that is if your hull is truly skinny.

I debated as to how many layers to add to the existing internal tabbing. I initially thought of adding three layers but after grinding/cleaning the hull deck joint in the v-berth I felt better about it. I decided to go with two layers of biaxial. As mentioned in the previoius post the first layer used is 1708 without mat backing and the second layer uses is 1808 with mat backing. This adds approximately 1/8" total thickness to the hull in the gunwale area. Based on what I have seen the hull thickness near the gunwale is approximately 1/4" that Tim mentioned in his day sailor project.


You will be adding color back in the form of epoxy sealer over the polyester.
If you are living onboard for extended times, you might be adding insulation (Ariel discussion forum.)

Yes, definitely plan to paint the v-berth after the bulkhead goes back in. I also plan to add wood ceiling to finish the hull with insulation underneath it.

The project scope is creeping though. I just ripped out the v-berth itself to enable access to add a 30 gal water tank. Also replacing the original longitudinal forward lower chainplate knees with athwartship knees made of g-10. When completely glassed in to the hull and underside of the deck it will further strengthen the hull deck joint. I already mentioned that the bulkhead is being moved forward by 6 inches. Looks like I won't be sailing for a few months.

[ebb]

Happy New Year!
Sounds like Plan, Progress and forensic photos always appreciated!
I think beefing up the inside in way of the hul/deck seam on our early Pearson classic plastics, while not the easiest, finishes up the cleanest looking when all is done.

Most of the ADFSF Breakfast Club have boats and agendas that won't include either an interior or exterior upgrade.
Do think a fix is possible and doable without disturbing the inside.
Took a drawing of the exterior biaxial idea for the West Coast Triton to the meeting and passed it around.
Added two more biaxial tape wraps to the model, making for five layers.
Didn't get much discussion....pretty used to that.
Can understand that to focus on something so basic as a hull/deck seam on Sunday morning
doesn't fire up the imagination. But, believe bringing to attentionm is important.

Short exchanges between oatmeal and eggs about what might have caused it....someone said the huge dent in VentDea's hull showed scrape damage in it ....and thought the boat had been hit by a log or something. Good possibility! There goes my twisted banana hypothesis.
The cause of the terrible damage to the boat seemed transfered to something IN the water rather than the water itself. To me, the grade of cause isn't the problem. A boat could be squeezed inadvertantly when sharing a canal lock with a steel monster.,,,,and crippled.
The integrity of the frp monoque structure of our boats (with reinforced seams and backup structures that support the skin)
will do a lot to protect the boat from unusual events.....whether they're freak waves, hitting logs at speed, or surving groundings and other hard places.

As someone said about our current weather: It'l be the same weather as always, just more extreme:
hotter summers, colder winters, longer droughts, bigger floods, colossal hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, tsunamis and freak waves.
The only smart thing we do is increase chances of survival.
Back up our compromises.:cool:


Our little one-to-one ballast to displacement cruisers.... if they run into a problem, that problem can instantly become disaster.
Went to the VentoDea blog: 3 Knots / Man, Wife and Dog drifting to warmer climates - 3-knots.com/ (link on Atomvoyages.com/)

NEARLY THE WHOLE LENGTH OF THE BOAT ON THE PORT SIDE HAD BEEN PUSHED IN ABOUT A FOOT.

Jerrad: "The disbelief didn't last more than moment before we began tp assess our situation.
There was a four foot diameter dent in the side of the hull.
The hull itself had been separated from the deck and pushed in about a foot - nearly the whole length of the boat on the port side.
There was delamination at the waterline.
We had no electricity, no GPS, no radio, our paper charts were destroyed.
The window on the lee side had been blown into the boat from the pressure as we rolled.
The permanent shelves and bulkheads had been blown clean off the hull.
The tiller had been broken off, one of the chainplates pulled off. [assume the mast survived - probably because they didn't 360.]

The kayak was split in two, we had maybe 2 hours of sunlight and it was still blowing a gale.
I had a feeling that it was going to be a long night."
They had 3 feet of water in the cabin that Jarrad's partner Josie managed to hand pump out!

They ended up close to shore where they were intercepted by the Columbian Coast Guard and towed in.
The Triton was declared a total loss by Columbian Customs and abandoned in Columbia. (VentoDea RIP)
Their dinghy and been split in two! (No mention of a life raft.)

Just suppose it had been dark.
Suppose your raft cannister had been stripped off by the comber and lost, and your dinghy smashed....
Our boats when they get enough water in them.... just go to the bottom....they don't float.
Wonder how many more gallons - or cups - would have settled VentoDea low enough for waves to come onboard?:eek:


Can't Happen To Me!

[ebb]

Joshua Slocum found Spray languishing in a Gloucester field. Shortened it by cutting the middle out. Rigged it and went sailing.
Don't know if he had help, but the boat was 38 feet, wasn't it? I've always thought that guys and gals in the old days had more stamina, more wear-with-all, piss and vinegar and plain guts. Harry Pidgeon was another...built his boat from the keel up.... and also circumnavigated the planet!

Probably too late now. But an enterprising soul of quality might have rescued VentoDea languishing somewhere on a Columbian dock.

The boat spent 50 or more years being a Triton.
The 4' diameter dent can be popped back out to its former curve. The port seam can be jimmied and jacked back out to the deck line. Then, temporaryly bulkheaded and spot welded with epoxy back to it's former sweet Albergian sheer.

Woke up this AM thinking of ways it might be done. First, prop the boat up on its keel and proceed to push (and pull) the portside back out. Then see if the deck and hull can be married back to it's lines. Line up the seam like it was and stitch it tight with wire and rope and clamps.
Important to get the port side hull as fair as possible with props, temporoary glued in blkhds - before filling the toe-rail seam.

Then build two circular cradles out of twoby and plywood so the boat can be ROLLED. Doesn't matter how the cradle is attached to the hull and deck....tab it on if necessary!
Cut holes for twoby straight thru both sides of the hull above the ballast and tie the cradle together there. Cross connect over deck or holes thru cabin. Patch holes later.
With all that weight to roll, it'll take a bit of planning and levering.

If the ballast is external (not encapsulated) then it could be removed.
It probably should have had its bolts replaced anyway...before it began any voyage. Certainly easier to roll the boat without its ballast.

The idea is to get the toerail positioned so that it can be worked without having grinding dust and epoxy in your face.. Less than 90% over on its side would be enough. Internal cross support needs planning when rolling boat onto its wounded side.
For this, it's worth the effort building a strong rolling cradle.
Assuming there is access to a greater part of the seam while keeping (at least temporaryly) most of the existing minor bulkheading and furniture in place. Get biaxial fabric and laminating epoxy together.
Then maybe roll up narrow logs of biax and epoxy, jam them into the cove of the toerail.
Prop pvc pipe wrapped in seran against the fill to make a large fillet curve in the corner.
Then, lay on the strips of fabric that tie the seam deck to hull.

(.....think I hear VentoDea calling.....)

I've had to leave the marina at times when lein sale boats - that hadn't made the cut - were towed in FLOATING, strung together like exhausted horses - where they were doomed to be butchered, and dumpt in a landfill. A338 is lined up along a fence on the hard with a bunch of others. Many in the beginning had flurries of restoration. Now sit neglected.... waiting for their owners to come back again....maybe never.

A small percentage of those boats make it out of the yard to sail far again.
If VentoDea hasn't been trashed, with some effort she could feel the wind dipping her rail again....seamlessly!

Thing is, VentoDea the Triton, crippled as she was, got the 3-Knots band safely back to land - had the good will and stamina to get her people and the dog to safety....

[Triton106]

Ebb wrote -


Joshua Slocum found Spray languishing in a Gloucester field. Shortened it by cutting the middle out. Rigged it and went sailing.
Don't know if he had help, but the boat was 38 feet, wasn't it? I've always thought that guys and gals in the old days had more stamina, more wear-with-all, piss and vinegar and plain guts. Harry Pidgeon was another...built his boat from the keel up.... and also circumnavigated the planet!

I recent re-read Joshua Slocum's classic "Sailing Alone Around the World". I am pretty sure he did no have help (not in any material way) in rebuilding Spray. What's more amazing is that he took on the process from cutting the trees for lumber to making the spars. Not only, he sailed alone through Magellan Strait while outsmarting the cunning natives without any autopilot, or engine, or radar. Honestly, I don't think there are that many people who could accomplish such a feat, in the past or present.

Harry Pidegon, the second person to solo circumnavigate the world, is equally impressive. Not the least of which is that he is the first one to circumnavigate twice, two and half times to be more exact.

Ebb wrote -


A small percentage of those boats make it out of the yard to sail far again.
If VentoDea hasn't been trashed, with some effort she could feel the wind dipping her rail again....seamlessly!

Thing is, VentoDea the Triton, crippled as she was, got the 3-Knots band safely back to land - had the good will and stamina to get her people and the dog to safety....

As tough as Tritons are I don't think Vento Dea's owners could have survived if they were hit by a second freak wave. They were fortunate that the sea was relatively calm after the accident and they were close to the shoreline and are young and tough. I share your sentiment for saving every worthy plastic classics. At the same time I completely understand that sometimes economics just don't permit it. In this case, the boat is in some remote Colombia shore without any real marine facilities, supplies, or even reliable supply of electricity. It will be an extremely challenging rescue project for anyone to take on. In the mean time there are many boats available at lien sales for a song. It would be much more economical to buy a lien sale boat and restore it than to fly to Colombia and pay for housing and maybe even government fees to take over the ownership of the boat and import duties for all of the supplies and parts.

In the meantime v-berth project on Blossom continues. I have glassed in the new bulkhead with two layers of biaxial tape on each side. I have also installed and glassed in chainplate knees athwartship. Currently waiting for the new water tank to arrive (Ronco model B126 fits perfectly under Triton v-berth). I will be posting more progress pictures shortly, maybe on a separate thread since some of it maybe unrelated to the subject topic of this thread.

[ebb]

What you are doing for her is fantastic!
As intimated, your focus of concern, obviously for you and your family,
but also for the Triton is exceptional.
It's rare, only a few have the resolve to really get into the three 'Re's:
Restore, Renovate, Refurbrish.

From 1959 to 1968 "over 700" East Coast Triton's built by Pearson.
"Thought to be around 125"..... West Coast Tritons built by Aeromarine Plastics in Sausalito.
"At least three built by Jouet in France.
http://bluewaterboats.org/pearson-triton-28/
Wonder just how many of these at least half century old relics are still around? Not a whole lot to begin with.

There's historical significance in that Triton is Alberg's first launch into dozens of classic plastics that earned him fame.....
the one that started it all.
Of the 800 'or so' Tritons, how many are still sailing? How many sitting in a field somewhere? Might be frightening to know.

Given Triton's place in maritime cultural history, and in the minds of dreamers, reviving a damaged Triton is as honorable and
excellent a calling any sailor can take on. Take to heart.


Yes, the 4-Knots (including their Triton) were all very lucky indeed. But that's the message....the vessel DID bring them to safety.
That second strike didn't happen to them. Would you say, a little magic? Or in Alberg's lines, there's magic.
Reinforcements for Blossom... to make sure it can't happen again... will be studied by others with sailboats worthy of saving and working on.
not just early Pearson Alberg's with leaky seams. Despite nay sayers ('a log did irt') the age of the boat alone makes re-doing the seam imperative.

In the mean time, we hoist a few to...... VentoDea!
Suggest you start a Gallery page, hopefully here with Bill's blessing, and give us all the photos you can.:cool:

[Bill]

Ebb, because it's not an Ariel or Commander, posting an "Off Topic" notice to come and look at the Triton's Web page when there's something new is how we can handle this.

[ebb]

Triton's Web Page
The new ADFSFB (Alberg Design Fleet of San Francisco Bay*) site is not fully together yet,
and probably never will have an interactive discussion forum function.
http://albergsailboats.org/about-the-triton/san-francisco-fleet.html

This thread has attracted only 6900 hits, certainly not the most popular subject in this forum.
And sadly, ever since Triton106 revitalized this thread - except for Scott and TonyG - no contributions from other owners.
And the subject is difficult. But it is, so far as I have found, the only internet site that talks about
the Alberg/Pearson HULL/DECK SEAM anomaly.

I'd guess that Ray will be able to post his rehab pictures there in a project pool bulletin board kind of thing.
However, it's not what anyone could call live, open, or interactive. And probably not even searchable by google.
Think that's too bad.
Hope he creates his own web site or blog, if his Triton is not welcome here.

This crab will reef his sails and go below. Bye.
(why does reciprocity seem to be social failure here?)
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"Formally known as the Triton One-Design Fleet of San Francisco (TODSF), our board of directors RECOGNIZED THE COMMON INTERESTS AND CONCERNS THAT ALL ALBERG OWNERS SHARE, and decided to expand the club's charter to include any boat designed by Carl Alberg." etc

[Rob Rotondo]

I recently discovered ponding on the inside shelves on my CP#162 and believe I need to reseal the deck seam. Some of the shelving near the bulkhead is soft and needs replacing. My question is regarding the bulkheads that the chain plates mount to. First, what are they made of? Second, what is the inside rail beneath the shelves made of? and third, Do the bulkheads that the chain plates bolt to (that is glassed to the shelves) need to be glassed to the shelf for further strength or can the shelf be removed under it. (and add length to the bulkhead for added strength?

Thanks,
Rob

[Scott Galloway]

The two bulkheads that define the forward end of the main salon and the aft end of the V berth area on my boat (Ariel #330) are both made of plywood. In 2004, I removed the standing rig and the original badly corroded chainplates. Over the years, leaks at the chainplate slots had caused water damage to the deck at the chainplate slots and at the top of the bulkheads and also to the bulkheads where the bolts holes penetrated the bulkheads.

I enlarged the bolt holes in the bulkheads and augured out the bad wood between the upper and lower laminations of the deck, I then filled these areas with epoxy and or fiberglass. I also removed all soft wood in the bulkheads and repaired these areas with fiberglass. I purchased new 306 stainless steel chainplates and bolts and installed them. The new bolt holes were drilled throug the enlarged epoxy or fiberglass filled holes, so there is no plywood to bolt contact. Also, the top of those two bulkheads on my boat were not taped to the underside of the deck, so I did that as well.

With the help of a professional, the strong back beneath the mast on my boat was rebuilt at the same time. I have documented the stong back project elsewhere in this forum. Also, you can visit my webpage on that project. That web page provides photo documentation of the strong back project: http://www.solopublications.com/sailarir.htm.

My strong back upgrade was unpopular with some contributors to this forum, but in my opinion and in the opinion fo the professional who designed and completed the project, it was the right solution for the problem that my boat was experiencing. It has been 19 years since that work was completed, and the reinforced stongback has performed very well in the Monterey Bay and Pacific Ocean environments where I sail my boat.

I have not experienced soft wood in the port or starboard V berth shelves or in the port side storage cabinets, So I can't say for certain what kind of wood those shelve are made of, but I have assumed that are also mode of plywood.

By the way, I have taken photos beneath the deck of cabin sole, which demonstrate that the plywood used in that area is labeled as AC plywood and not as marine plywood. (Please see attached photo.) When I removed some of the formica covering the bulkhead at the forward end of the main salon, I discovered prominent voids in the plywood, So if the top edges of your bulkheads are not sealed in some way, water entering that area may find its way down through the voids in the plywood. This could result in more than cosmetic damage to the bulkheads.

I also removed and re-bedded the the rub rail and re-bedded the hull desk joint in 2002 shortly after purchasing the boat. That was a major project that took a number of weeks. A prior owner had removed the original caulk and replaced it with what appeared to be silicon caulk. I had to remove that material from the seam, and then clean the joint with solvent. My hull/deck seam is now bedded with 3M 5200. The hull deck joint is gassed over with roving and mat on the inside of the boat. The joint itself was not leaking into the cabin on my boat, however, a prior owner had re-fastened the rub rail with long screws that penetrated the seam, and the roving and mat as well. The protruding screws were rusted, and rust stains ran down there inside of the hull, I filled all of those screw holes with epoxy from both the cabin side and from the outside of the hull. I then rebedded the hull deck seam with 3M 5200. I used 3M 4200 to bed the rub rail, which I also fastened with shorter screws that did not permit water intrusion.

Even with a sound and well sealed hull to deck joint, you may and probably will experience some puddling of rain water on the V Berth shelves near the chainplates. The key to stopping that problem (at least temporarily) is an annual or semiannual re-bedding of the chain plate covers to prevent rain water from entering the chainplate slots. I use a polysulfide caulk for this purpose.

As far as removing the shelves in the V Berth area, I do not know whether those shelves are designed to stiffen the hull, but they probably do provide some structural reinforcement. You might write to Ebb. Ebb has done seem extensive redesign and rebuilding of the interior of his Ariel, which is well documented on this forum.

[Rob Rotondo]

Thank you Scott. I will look up Ebb's stuff. I would post a few pictures but I'm not sure how :)