Battery location poll

[mrgnstrn]

After thoroughly canvasing "glissando" for info (thanks again to "glissando"), i would like to poll the Ariels with outboards (important detail) on the current local of their battery.

currently mine is wired to sit in the aft lasserette with the O/B, which i think will play hell with my trim, since my ~100lb water ballast in the water tank isn't there (tank is shot).

i think the Atomic4 folks had theirs under the last step to the cabin (according to the drawings i have). this makes a lot of sense, considering stability and where most of the loads are. but of course the O/B messes with that all.

so like i said, just a poll, which i think (hope) will come along with some justification/pontification as to why one is better or worse.

apologies if this subject has already been covered.


-km #3
:)

[Bill]

The Pearson factory location for the battery for both inboard and outboard models is under the first step in the main cabin companionway. Keeps the weight low and forward compared to the lazarette. There is one owner planning to place the battery in the bilge -- a bit extreme to my mind :)

Not sure why someone would place the battery in the lazarette. Maybe they had an outboard with electrical generating capability and placed the battery there rather than running a wire forward. :confused:

When racing, SF Bay Area boats place the outboard on the cabin sole with the head facing forward and in the forecabin doorway. Gets the weight down low for better trim.

[Janice Collins]

Mine is also under the first companionway step. Although I have an OB now, originally we had an Atomic 4. The battery has aways been there.

[Mike Goodwin]

I have 2 batteries under the companionway/bridgedeck area.

[Tony G]

Ebb once accused me of wanting to put 113's batteries in the bilge. Of course I firmly denied even considering putting my hand in the bilge. Lately though, I must confess, I've given serious thought to locating them in the bilge. Given the sad state of my main cabin sole we're looking at replacing that along with the rotted bulkheads(reference paranoia subsides) and after reading several accounts of waterproofing bulkheads and compartments I think a waterproof drop-in in the bilge may work. We'd have to work the numbers of course, measurment wise, but I think there would be room left for anchor locker drainage underneath and plenty of room aft for an electric bilge pump and a secondary bilge pump. I wouldn't even consider putting a battery in the bilge if I didn't have to replace the sole as I think the only place worse would be to lash it to the foredeck but the opportunity is presenting itself for some nifty compartment work. The other spots I'm considering are some storage compartments that will be just forward of the...you got it, the soon to be removed bulkhead. Because the water tank is elcrappo it'll be removed and I don't think I'll put as large a tank back in because this isn't going to be an off shore boat so we could use a little mor weight up front. This will all require a closer inspection, of course, but I'm leaning in that direction. Tony G

[mrgnstrn]

my battery is in fact in the lasserette, because the O/B is electric start and has an alternator.
but this doesn't eliminate running thick cables, because the loads are all forward, so a pair of big wires run forward (from the lasserette) to the fuse box.
seems to me that if you have to run big wires either direction, better to run oversize wire back to start the O/B than to mess up the fore-aft trim so much.

this is all part of my grand plan to:
a) repaint the bottom, complete with barrier coat
b) re-wire the whole boat, since there isn't even a decent grounding path for most of the cabin lights.
c) install all new electronics

but it looks like the general consensus is battery under the steps. makes sense.

thanks to all.
-km #3

[ebb]

There are two good reasons for having your batteries under the step. You won't ever have a gasing buildup problem - and they're relatively high up for access, maintenance. out of potential flooding.

On 338, that's where the cooler is going. 338 is a cruiser conversion in the making, so here's something on that:

Since AGMs are true sealed batteries I wondered (on another thread) why they, the house bank, couldn't live under the cabin sole.

I want to fiberglass floors in under the cabin sole to provide IMCO more continuity between all that ballast and the narrowing fairly flat areas of the keel.
That would create handy bays on top of the ballast for more heavy objects like battieies, chain, take-apart anchors, and beer. Or water tankage.

I tried to get a poll going with the general concensus here on just who has had water over the cabin sole. Nobody, it seems.

Then I tried to find out if AGMs short out if immersed in water? Don't know, got no answer,
If they don't, when you begin sinking you switch them off circuit, and bail like hell. In the meantime you have your cheapo starter battery tucked up under the cockpit so the ob can hopefully start. Maybe if things are really bad you could borrow some juice from it for your sonar until you dried out.

I wonder if I was an avid racer if I wouldn't try to gain some advantage by mounting the two batteries (that's what 338 had) under the sole at the foot of the ladder. There's enough space aft under there to disperse the hydrogen gas from regular batteries. Could be vented with a blower added.

When the cabin sole gets lifed out, the first thing will be to see if indeed two 27s can fit in there!

[Dave]

Batteries 1 and 2 are under the companionway steps.
Battery switch on inboard wall beneath sink.
--Dave G
Brigid #357

[Hull376]

376 has battery as delivered from the factory, beneath the first step. The Ayes have it.

[ebb]

Do we have a quorum......?:D

[Ed Ekers]

Hey Ebb, I have two comments. First you scare me with all your talk about sinking. I know we are to be prepared for everything but man talk about bad karma. eeek!

Second point, I agree with your point on performance balance, but if you are a serious racer, what you would be looking for is a place to put you very small motorcycle battery.

But to offer an answer to your original question, #77 cast its vote for under the step........ed

[mrgnstrn]

thank you to all, i had always planned on re-wiring to have the battery under the step, just wanted a little backup.
and now to decide on the new name for the boat....

-km #3

[ebb]

morning Prof Ed,
Eggzackly my point, if somewhat dull.
Why be paranoid about the batteries, Why not put them lower down. It would take some work. But not cruel Pearson put them where you guys have them because they didna want to do the extra work. What with the batteries and the cockpit plumbing I know on 338 there was no access to get under the cockpit.

I was more paranoid about not having access to major parts of the boat.
That also included the forward watertank area and some hard to get to spaces under the cabin berths and the cabin sole.

There must be a fine line between what is right (correct or mo'betta) and paranoia. No sane paranoid Ariel owner would put their batteries in the bilge!

[Theis]

With regard to putting the battery in the bilge, before you do that, try one of the following items that might be relevant: sailing at night without lights, starting the motor with without a battery, using your radio when not connected to power, and so forth. My experience is that when a battery is out of service, you are in a real jam, unless it is in the middle of a bright clear day and you are still at the dock. It does not take much water to fill the bilge.

As for AGM batteries, they are great, but when the water rolls over the terminals, they don't work any better than any battery.

I used to have my battery in the lasarette but moved it for two reasons: The most important was that I needed more fuel capacity requiring a second can of gas for the motor. The second reason was the weight of the battery.

My battery location now is mounted high, on a platform extended from the aft side of the aft cabin bulkhead in the port lasarette. The access is through the port lasarette. This is midship (sort of - about the same as under the first step). It is much higher in case of a disaster (and I have an electric high volume pump - so I don't want the battery to be under water). This leaves the area under the steps available for a lot of other things, such as spare gas, a liferaft, food, etc. The battery is out of the way of everything - out or sight, can not be spilled on, can not have a wrench drop across the terminals and so forth.

From that battery location, I have run a #6 cable to the motor along the top back of the lasarette. On the forward side of the bulkhead, just above the counter, I mounted a master power switch. My power distribution panel is located high, under the upper step, on the starboard side.

That's my vote.

[Brent]

I'm going to be putting the batteries under the cockpit floor on #66. A hatch (already purchased) in the cockpit floor will give access.

This is perhaps a bit higher and futher aft than some would find comfortable, but I'm rebuilding the whole interior--although not to the extent that Ebb is going to--so I'll be able to compensate for it.

More importantly, there is some significant unused space here, and I'll be needing the current battery location for the cooler.

[ebb]

Your bats right under the cockpit sole is a great idea, Best yet.

I'm going to "waterproof" one or both port and starboard lazarettes, as some people call them, with plywood panels and glass tabbing. So that no water can get below thru the seat-lids. I see the inside floor of the stowage at the same level as the cockpit.

To have these panels (which in my case would run the length of the cockpit along the lower corners) as sides to cleat the battery boxes to would be they only way I can see how to do it. One reason is that I think the cockpit still needs support which the longitudinal panels would provide - there are heavy varying loads concentrated here. My guess is that you are going to build up 'tables' from the hull for the batteries to sit on and they will be loaded and accessed thru the sole. Of course those structures could go from hulll to cockpit bottom providing said support.

But I'm really interested in what hatches you choose. I assume the cockpit to be a wet zone. Some people have developed rot here because of clogged drains and constant wetness. I've gotten Bomar for 338 but I'm not really happy with them. Designwise, as I haven't tested them yet. Don't know if I'd even put one of their cast aluminum reinforced offshore lexan doodawhotsis in the cockpit. It's only a pressure fit on half-round rubber using two dogs. (And then you'ld have to reach in under to release the dogs.) What else is there....acrylic access hatches? What can you step on? And what truely won't leak on the batteries?

The right hatches and I can see your idea in my case at least for the OB starter bat. And who knows, the others too.

[ebb]

It just occured to me that I think 338s cockpit floor is fiberglass with pieces of plywood matt-glassed to the bottom in strips to make it stiff. Could be losing it. (mentally)

Yet I know I've read here I think of someone whose balsa core had rotted and needed replacing. But I've never seen a How-To or an I-Did-It-My-Way repair on the cockpit floor. Must have dreamed it. Nobody would put a balsa core in the cockpit, right???

[Brent]

The hatch is a plastic Bomar 16x18". I've stepped on it a few times, and with some reinforcement around the perimeter, it should be sturdy enough.

The cockpit floor on #66 is as you describe, with wood glassed to the underside for stiffness. Doesn't seem cored to me, although I vaguely remember something to that effect.

[glissando]

Boman makes a line of cast aluminum flush deck hatches that are quite decent looking and somewhat less industrial in nature than the "commercial" line of aluminum hatches from Bomar and Anchor Marine. There are several sizes available, but you'll need to dust off your checkbook--the price of admission is high. The smallest rectangular one is nearly $300. These aluminum hatches look pretty much just like the plastic versions.

The commercial hatches, which feature positive screw-down dogs and are very waterproof, but huge and heavy and ugly, are the best, but probably overkill and likely unable to fit in a small cockpit anyway. The price of these monsters is even higher, but they might be the best choice for offshore work.

[glissando]

Oops--hit "enter" before I meant to.

And I should have typed "BOMAR", not "BOMAN", too.

I've never been thrilled with the plastic hatches. I have a Tempress 13x18 in the cockpit sole that works fairly well, but I wouldn't use it offshore, nor would I use it above anything I wanted to keep dry, like batteries--it simply is not completely watertight as I had hoped. Fortunately, mine isn't above anything that is harmed by some minor wter drippag--just the stuffing box. I'll probably install a nice aluminum hatch within the next year or two and be done with it.

Hamilton Marine sells the commercial and lighter-duty hatches I was talking about in the last post. Worth a looksee, anyway.

www.hamiltonmarine.com

[ebb]

'Lo Capt. Tim,
Very quick morning scan reveals no hatches in Hamilton's online catalog,,,? Didn't look under books flags or marine furniture.

The only design I can imagine that would work for waterproofing a hatch would be a "knife" edge that seats into a rubber gasket. There is no way a bendy plastic hatch can be dogged tight if it depends on surface to surface seal.

Back when internetting for hatches I found ONE hatch with a positive knife seal design but they didn't export. Must have been a French outfit.

[Theis]

ebb:

You commented earlier in this thread about no one reporting water over the cabin sole = and no one appears to have taken that lead.

I have on several occasions, a few of which I will recount. The first I recounted earlier was when I first bought the boat and the motor lassarette was leaking. A second time was when the hatch was left open in advertently. Another time one of my through hull hoses spring a pin hole leak. A fourth time was this summer when the deck was stove in (when I did need the power pump to bail - I didn't know the water was from the rain). Of course, with the bilge full of beer, it took a lot less water to fill the bilge. Lastly, when laid up, there was a leak in the chain plate, and over the course of the winter enough water had dripped in to fill the bilge. That would not seem to be a problem, since the boat was laid up, but if the battery had become inundated, and discharged, it would have been totaled.

I have also been on a sinking Triton and watched as the water came over the cabin floor - then the battery went dead killing the radio, lights, everthing - including motor starter. (We did not sink, as it turned out). I have always been thankful that the Ariel has a deep bilge, not like some of the flat bottomed boats - such as the Pearson 26.

[Tony G]

Theis
Not to whip a dead horse, but what about a sealed battery in a "watertight" compartment? I don't think laminating in a platform under the sole is a viable option, but in a case like mine where the cabin sole has to be rebuilt/replaced, it would be very easy to section off a portion for that purpose. Gasketed hatches in the cabin sole with positive latches(kinda rhymes) should keep water out until the head pressure get exceedingly high at which point I'm in a lot more trouble than dead batteries! Maybe I'm obsessed with keeping the weight low and a little forward. So go ahead, shoot it full of holes 'cause I want to know before I start laying glass! Tony G

PS Of course it's not just Theis' it's open season for all of you and Tim too.

[ebb]

My new bulkhead to be has a new plastic Bomar 19 x 19. It's made out of white molded acrylic, an acrylic lens, tiny bitty hinges with itty-bitty pins, and two plastic dogs.

It came with a little peelable label that says, Do not sit stand walk kneel or treat the hatch badly in any way. (it's down at the boat or I would probably quote it here)

It was a special order. Cost like 300 bucks. It's bendy, you can easily twist frame and or lid. So you got to mount it DEAD flat.

It's something you'd find on a Bayliner. Probably with a leaky lens. But it was the only Bomar I could find that would open inside and outside. I'm going to mount it vertical in the cabin so its flimseyness is merely problematical.

What I don't get is why they can't make a line of hatches out of a material like marelon, or delrin for that matter, something besides a weak cheap throwaway plastic that has no place in an exposed environment. I think I've seen access hatches out of polypropylene, might trust them one degree more.

[glissando]

Ebb,

Don't know what size exactly you're looking for, but here are a few model numbers you could put into the "search" box on the Hamilton site to get the proper hits. If you get tired of typing numbers in, tell me the size you might be most interested in and I can tell you which of these item #s is the closest one. These are all the models in the current catalog.

Bomar Cast Alum. Inspection Hatch--4 models available:

147406
147407
104622
104623

Bomar Commercial 4-Dog Cast Aluminum Hatch, Guaranteed to 30' Head--7 models available:

104611
104615
104616
104610
104612
104613
104619

Anchor Hatches Anodized Aluminum Flush-Mount Hatches--9 models available:

148397
142262
117453
117454
117459
142226
117477
117476
117478

It's worth requesting Hamilton's print catalog, while you're on the site. Good prices, great service, well respected. I feel fortunate to have one of the stores 20 miles away.

The Tempress hatch I have features a knife-type gasketed seal, but obviously mine is not dead flat, so it doesn't seal properly at the sides. At least the hatch is less flimsy underfoot than most plastic ones. Photo below is during installation. I got this one at West Marine for about $80. It's 13 x 18 or something like that.

Tim

[Mike Goodwin]

For you freshwater sailors this isn't a concern ,
but us salty folks have to be concerned with chlorine gas , very deadly , made by adding saltwater to a 12v or any DC battery setup .
Ask any old submariner .
I don't like taking the chance of turning my Ariel into a gas chamber thank you very much .
And water has been over the cabinsole in #45 by at least 6" judging by the watermarks , but not on my watch .

[ebb]

Thanks Tim for your time on this hatch business. And the tip on the Hamilton site!

I went and bought some batteries
but they weren't included,
so I had to buy them again.
(Steve Wright)



[Alberg30]Info about Cockpit Sole Hatches

www.alberg30.org/pipermail/publiclist/2002-April/003482

(so far as I know, having dealt with Jeff at Thrifty Mariner, it is, this source for Bomar seconds or obsoletes, obsolete - phones unanswered, messages not returned. If you order direct from Pompanette, it'll take your breath away and empty yer wallet. But dealing direct with the factory you can order special options like a translucent white acrylic lens e.g. like I did for the frufru bayliner hatch. Otherwise, Hamilton is a great source possibility. Those basic Anchorhatches of aluminum and s.s. may be the way to go for the cockpit deck. www.atyp.com/anchorhatches/ they actually SAY watertight!)

[mrgnstrn]

In case anyone was waiting on the edge of their seats, my battery is now located under the steps.

It only took two stops at Bacon & assoc, two stops at boatus (both pre and post merger) four stops at WM and the finishing stop at Fawcett's.

by the way, Fawcetts is the only place i found that will let you borrow their "huge ass battery cable" crimpers to make up cables. everyone else wants to sell you that expensive and small hammer crimper tool.

one small glitch is that when the battery is in the battery box (plastic cheapo) it is too wide to fit under the bottom step, so i will have to have it like a foot or so back, more like in line with the bulkhead. close enough. i shouldn't have to mess with it that much. (knock on wood)

thanks for everyone's insight. if i have to mess with them that much, i may opt for the hatch in the cockpit sole option, but not yet.

-km#3
"ariel spirit"

[Anthony/Bina]

It seems ariels have the battery under the step, but where does the commander keep its battery?

Mine seems to fit in a fiberglass box that fits in the starboard sail locker. And it was very slopply mounted to the foot of the quarter berth where it meets the locker.

There was a little wood wedge to keep it in place...oh brother!!!

Can anyone tell me the placement and method of mounting the battery in the commander..

And a picture would be a huge help!!! :confused:

[Jeff]

I found mine under the floor board beneath the companionway ladder. It is also held in place by some boards. It seems secure to me and I have decided to leave it there.

[commanderpete]

Anthony, what you have is the original installation. It's not great.

I've been thinking of just glassing in a little shelf down there so the battery box could be better secured.

The location does make it easy to get the battery in and out.

[Anthony/Bina]

commanderpete,

It's hard to believe that the factory would be so sloppy with their construction.

I do agree, that it is a good location for access. Particularly, I can lower the battery down into the sail locker and into position relatively easily. I could imagine it being very difficult to access the battery if it was a different location.

The weirdest part about my battery box is that it has a Strange shape on the bottom. basically, the bottom is not completely flat. There is a flange that sticks down about 1 in.. This flange runs across the entire length of the box. So basically if you try this at the box on a flat surface it would tip to 1 side. I wonder if they Designed it this way on purpose? was this Protruding area part of a mounting solution?

so far, my best idea is to create a platform in the sail locker. This platform will be made out of seaboard plastic. Then I would mount the fiber glass box to this plastic.

any thoughts on this plan?

By the way, was your battery mounted so that the long portion of the battery runs parallel to the boat? or does the length of your battery intersect the boat? Just try to get an idea of orientation?

[commanderpete]

Can't recall right now, I'll take a look.

Careful handling that battery box, might have old acid in it.

Thinking about getting a new one, since they're cheap

[commanderpete]

You should see two holes in that lip of the battery box for mounting it to the end of the quarter berth athwartship.

You can secure the battery box to a platform, but you have to figure out how to attach the platform to the boat. Seaboard won't take fiberglass, as far as I know.

I don't have plans to put a second battery on the boat, but it might be wise to build accomodations for one while I'm at it.

[SkipperJer]

I moved mine from the starboard sail locker to under the ladder. It puts the weight dead center. I bought a black plastic battery box with a cover and strap. I added a second strap and attached both straps to the bulkhead wall with bolts and big fender washers. The battery has stayed put so far. It allowed for shorter wires to the bus-strip/distribution panel in my boat. It's easy to get the battery in and out of the boat fully contained inside the box. I found that working inside the sail locker was pretty clumsy with a heavy battery.

I don't cruise much so I have little extra gear on the boat. I think the battery placement is more critical as a result. The few times I have raced we put the outboard and the anchor below and centered to keep the boat as stiff as possible.

[Bill]

I moved mine from the starboard sail locker to under the ladder. It puts the weight dead center....The few times I have raced we put the outboard and the anchor below and centered to keep the boat as stiff as possible.

Way to go! :cool: Hope others are listening . . . :)

[SkipperJer]

I might add that one of the things that keeps me going to the gym during the winter is staying in shape enough to be able to haul that #*^@% outboard up and down that ladder.

[c_amos]

Faith currently has the large (group 31?) battery in a plastic box under the steps.

I am looking for about 225 ~ 250 ah of storage. I thought of going with a pair of what I have now (of course replacing the one I have, so they would be the same age). It says "205cca reserve" on the tag...

The other option I have looked into is a pair of Trojan T-105 golf cart batteries. I know this is a respected brand, and they are 225 ah, so with the two 6v golf cart batteries in series I should get 225ah.

Anyone see any merits or peril in either arrangement? Or have osmething else they are doing?

[Theis]

I mounted my sealed AGM battery in a Group 24 plastic box on a shelf mounted to the aft side of the bulkhead between the aft end of the port berth and the forward end of the port lazarette - about a foot below the deck.This position doed not affect balance, is out of the way, and remote from gas and fumes and not subject to flooding.The battery cables then go through the bulkhead to a master on/off switch mounted on the forward side of the bulkhead t to the port of the sink.
It has worked well for the past several years

[bill@ariel231]

I've gone with two group 24's in the same location. these are balanced athwartship by the fuel tank on starboard.