Boat drain

[roythomas]

Is there one? I was curious if the original design included a boat drain or bilge drain? I know the answer on keel drain but is there some hull fitting to drain standing water in the boat?

[ebb]

That is probably answered by saying: all water entering the boat ends up,
if not in the encapsulated keel,
but in the sump, which is next to, just aft, of the end of the lead ballast.

In A338 I found the fiberglass encapsulation wide open at the ballast end.
So we could say: one drain drains them all... If you want a drain, it has to
be near that sump spot. Find a bronze 'garboard' drain that has a screw-in
O-ringed hex-socket plug you can remove with an allen wrench when on hard.
www.hamiltonmarine.com/ all bronze socket head plug, non-O-ring
#103383, $46.
They have some cheaper choices. More choices than any other source.

Some have done it in the Forum here. Sorry don't know where.

[ebb]

Roy, I am unable to use the NOTIFICATIONS bar above here.
It infuriates me. I can write you a message, which I've just done,
It won't send... why? look around, up top: says some kind of storage is full!!
What !@#$%! storage? Well I can tell you, won't work for me any more!!!


OK, Epoxy. Look up the Tech Forum thread >keel voids< from 2003.
May be enough there to cover what you need. See post #26. Almost a joke,
but if you have access to the bilge from the top (the cabin deck has to be
removed). So much easier to pour in epoxy from the top than squirt it in
from the sides. You will be squirting laminating epoxy, which is runny. You
will NOT be using West System epoxy that blushes, next batch won't stick
to the last batch. and etc.
Imco you will have to fill the void from both sides to be sure you get the
ballast fully embedded.

If you are on the hard, you should drain immediately, if you haven't. In my
opinion you can't barrier coat until you drain.
However, available now are coatings that can be applied to wet surfaces.
www.epoxyproducts.com. Don't know if there is an actual barrier coat like that,
doubt it. How dry inside?....

If you like, Let's discuss here...

[Lucky Dawg]

Hey Roy,
I installed one on Lucky Dawg - check posts that start here: http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?1604-Commander-65-quot-Lucky-Dawg-quot&p=27010#post27010 A little info there on finding the right spot.
KW

[ebb]

HNY Kyle!

Don't know Commanders. But you did illustrate exactly, in post #252, A338's rear bilge
sump. The lead ballast in A338 ends, and that becomes the sump. (The matt & roving
'encapsulation' was not completed and was a ragged mess. I grinded on it and pasted
in a fitted piece of fiberglass sheet to define the sump and for the first time, fully
encapsulate the ballast lead.) It is a relatively narrow volume that gets more
constricted going aft toward the 'keelpost.' At the factory they stuffed in extra matt &
polyester in the bottom of the very narrow bilge, so that water tilts forward just
enough, and collects at the end of the ballast. Deepest part of the boat.

So, thinking how nice it would be to get the drain hole exactly where wanted, without
the exploratory holes.Probably should get the sump cleaned dry and prepped. Also
assuming no former owner put foam filler down in there, or tried to fill it with anything
else. (Should be removed if not structural). Scrub it as clean as possible down to
original laminations. Unlikely Pearson spatter painted down there. Never know.

You'll forever congratulate yerself if you paint the sump with a white 2-part epoxy
coating.

Now comes the hard part, assuming the skipper is not a carpenter. But you can't work
on a boat without a 55 degree angled 3/8" drill. Really! Klingspor has a no-name: $60.
(Haven't tried it) You can't drill sideways into rib or frame next to the hull, or tight
spaces, without this animal.
www.woodworkingshop.com [this blueline a plus source, not a recommendation]

The thought is that with a stubby 1/8"-3/16" drillbit, a pilot hole might be drilled from
the inside, if you manage to get down in the sump with the tool. This corded drill you
hold around the barrel. You could use a right angle drill, but this 3/8" 55degree offset
makes a tool that's a delight to use. Miklwauke made the original decades ago.

Anyway, with reach-in access to the fitting, it will also be a breeze to tool the epoxy off
smooth inside.* And it'll be at the lowest level in the sump. And ofcourse, if the plug
unscrews itself, you'll be able to stuff it closed with the sock that's always in the bilge.

Just an idea...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

* if you inherited a thin hull below the WL like some of us have, then epoxy in a backing,
like a piece of fiberglass plate (not plywood), to thicken the inside hole area, might do
well. Following Kyle's lead: Drill the pilot hole from inside - epoxy in backing - drill
flange inset holesaw series - drill final thru hole with 1"? holesaw (from outside) - chip
out the inset flange. Seal with 2-part laminating epoxy.

Can say there will be sheer stress on the flange by the screw-in plug. If I was doing it,
I'd obsess about the fasteners. We can't buy 3 bronze screws** from TopNotchFasteners,
the only source I know. If we use a piece of Garolite$$ as backing, it's ideal to tap for
machine screws. And here, only here, I might use 316MS and Lanocote. MS aren't pointy.
I'd make sure the fitting can't come loose, because your epoxy didn't like the flange metal.
Don't like the idea of permanently gluing fixture with 5200 or epoxy.

If the backing is secure, and your drilling square, it is also possible to 'bolt' the flanged
drain fitting - with 316MS and nuts - use Tefgel and replace them when needed. {If the
machine-screws are tight in their holes, it's possible to reverse the mini bolts and put nuts
and washers on outside where you can control small parts. And the studs can be driven
back out/thru from outside to replace when needed, maybe never!
Or just drill slightly undersize, use straight-sided 316 screws (from local hardware) directly
into the fiberglass with epoxy. My last choice because you have to trust the gods, if the
bronze wants to eat the stainless, or viceversa. Or if the bronze is brass and goes porous.

Choose the BuckAlgonquin$$ drain. It's probably alloy 85-5-5-5 (copper-tin-aluminum-
zinc), known as red brass. In fresh water, no problem. In salt there are many variables.
Perko is too peculiar to trust, stay away from yellow brass and stainless steel.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

** Sorry about this, keep adding on...
TopNotchFasteners http://www.tnfasteners.com/ does have 3 possibles in bronze
that may work (and ease some corrosion paranoia):
1). R&P Frearson Flat Head Silicon Bronze Machine Screw 10-24 - 1-1/4" -- $0.63 ea
2). (hex)Socket Head Silicon Bronze Cap Screw 1/4-20 -3/4"-1" -- $2 ea.
These two require nuts and washers. BUT if hull is relatively thin and you dap the flange
of the garboard fitting into the hull AND epoxy in a piece of Garolite (McMasterCarr) 3/8"
or thicker as backer plate - [B]drill and tap (from outside) for machine or cap screw
fasteners in Garolite. Easy to do if you have a HSS tap and die set.

BEST WAY (My choice would be the 1/4" cap screws tapped into Garolite because they
are more substantial for an offshore cruiser, and the socket takes a large Allen wrench.}
Would not use tube rubber, but opt for a more traditional bedding compound like Dolfinite.
This bedding is used underwater in traditional wood boat building. Inset flange provides
ample surface for a waterproof install. Tefgel or Lanocote on the threads. Down the line,
fitting is secure and completely removable from outside.. Imco

3). R&P Frearson Oval Head Bronze Wood Screws #10 - 1", 1-1/4" -- $2.10 -$2.36 ea

Frearson wood screws are straight sided. They have a precise cross driver head that a
normal Phillips cross driver won't fit. These are beautiful precision tools.
You can get a Frearson driver bit from topnotch.

[Lucky Dawg]

Occurs to me.... Pretty sure the garboard drain in seawater is a different animal. Needs to be grounded, no?

[ebb]

Kyle, with our boats, it's complicated. Or maybe I make it too complicated! At 50yrs old
and in many waters, each of our boats are individuals. Common practice was that you
have to bond (as the original boat was) all underwater metal together to common
'ground'. This is particularly the case with bronze props on s.s. shafts. And any brass
like manganese bronze used for, say, the rudder shoe with a silicon bronze rudder shaft.
Different alloys together in salt water make a battery - some metals will disintegrate.
We use zinc anodes to encourage exchanging metals in sea water to choose it rather than
an important fixture to eat. Doesn't always work, but maybe your only recourse. Read on.

Wiring metals together is old school and controversial. I understand there's no harm done
if all the metals are the same alloy. But the argument is, that if they are all the same, we
don't need to wire them together. It's my personal opinion, if all your under water fittings
are silicon bronze, you're OK. My guess that a high copper content fitting of red brass will
also be OK. But Keep an eye on it, especially if it's getting covered with copper bottom.

Don't know if we have come to a consensus about our rudder system bronzes. Long ago,
had an exchange with Roger Winiarski of Bristol Bronze. He told me that his firm originally
supplied shoe & rudder shaft material to Pearson and that it was manganese bronze.*
Which may be the reason why we have corrosion problems (not always) with the shaft as
it enters the rudder tube. Some original mahogany plank rudders have corrosion where
interior rods connect with the rudder stock. A338 had corrosion in the rudder shoe.

DFO had drilled an extra 1/4" bronze bolt thru the ruddershoe and attached a zinc because
the shoe was being eaten away. Probably because he had built A338 a fiberglass rudder
with a s.s. shaft. Long term tests have discovered that 316 coupled underwater with
copper alloys show accelerated galvanic corrosion TO the bronze acting as anode.
2 major alloys in blatant contact, with zinc anode unable to do its disappearing act.

I don't think a silicon bronze rudder shaft would have a problem in the oxygen-starved air
inside the rudder tube near the waterline. Original rudders may be a mix of similar but
not equal copper alloys. Viz smaller interior rods and pins are probably silicon bronze....
Bronze is a general term applied to a variety of copper alloys, that have different electric
potentials, creating unpredictable corrosion effects.
This convinces me that underwater alloys, including thru-hulls, should be wired - like they
were, or maybe still are.:D A338's ground wires were corroded at attachment points.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

* Manganese bronze has an over-abundance of zinc in it (35-40%). And in salt will self
destruct, turning weak and porus, when the zinc in the alloy just leaves! It's a fine strong
beautiful bronze on deck, but should never be used underwater. Another little gifty from
Pearson. A338 has all her underwater bronze changed to 98% copper 655 silicon bronze,
or Maralon thru-hulls, and will NOT be bonded. Altho may add small zincs where needed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Next post may convince you to NOT wire bond your underwater metals, until you
have seen what is happening to the various metals on your boat in the waters
and marina where you sail. It's simply BEST not to create a circuit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~

Sorry. This does seem to be overkill for an insignificant boat drain. However, if the
drain gets eaten away, and you are unware, it becomes a hole that will sink your boat.
(PERKO sells garboard drains that have a 'bronze' flange and a brass plug. This is idiotic
no-brainer treachery, and why I never will have anything Perko on my Ariel.)




At the end of a tough summer day back in 1965, Clint asked Everett, handing him a Blatz,
'Wonder if these boats we're building will still be around 50 years from now?'

[ebb]

This is quoted from a very lively, well written, resource site: YachtPals. It is signed
Ann-Marie, but nearly all the extensive articles on this site are by a Brad Hampton, who
most likely sails and cares for Ann-Marie. Just want to make sure this writer gets credit
where the credit is due! http://yachtpals.com/how-to/electrolysis?page=1

OK, I'm going to skip a lot of good stuff and go right to where it's Hot...


"PROTECTION
There are basically 2 ways to reduce electrolysis. The PREFERABLE one is to DISCONNECT
the electrical circuit. If this can't be done, the 2nd method is to provide a sacrificial anode
(Zinc) so it deteriorates rather than your expensive equipment.

a). DISCONNECTING
Electrolysis cannot occur on an isolated piece of metal in salt water. It is all at the same
voltage but if it is isolated no current can flow so there is no electrolysis. When it is
connected to another piece of metal, ESPECIALLY if the other piece is a different metal,
you just created a shorted battery and electrolysis will start. By following the wrong advise
and bonding everything in the boat you are creating batteries where it is unnecessary and
making electrolysis problems worse.


ANN-MARIE'S RULE #1. Only bond underwater items that are showing symptoms of

electrolysis. If it ain't broke, DON'T fix it. Once you bond it unnecessarily you have

CREATED the circuit rather than DISCONNECTING it. You are now stuck with providing

Zincs since you have removed the first line of protection.


Altho some thru hulls appear to be isolated due to sitting in fiberglass and using non-
metallic tubing, they quite often are not and WILL need bonding. For example the raw
water cooling inlet for an inboard engine is in fact connected to the engine block by the
salt water in the tubing and may need bonding so the current flows through copper rather
than the water and in/out of the hull.

b). SACRIFICIAL ZINC....".


OK, you better take it from there. (...'keep in mind that zincs create electrolysis'...)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
Isolated a major quote here in case I violate copyright law -- can be remedied by simple
electrolysis (removal). There's no hidden ulterior motive except to share an exceptional
contribution in smartening up the rabble.... Ebb