Commander and Outboards

[John]

My Commander is powered by a 9.9 2-cycle outboard. This just fits in the well in the lazarette. The motor is an 87 and I am starting to think what to replace it with.

I have two issues ( I think.)
1. At any speed over 5 knts., the water floods the lazarette by coming in over the back of the well. Has anyone fashioned a plug to fit around the motor to slow this down? And was it effective?

2. 4-cycle engines seem to have a lot of advantages but seem to large for the well. Has anyone fit one in their well? Did the well need to be modified?

[Bill]

There are some earlier threds on ob engines. Set the period to "from the beginning," and check them out.

8hp will drive the boat at hull speed. 2-cycle Nissan/Yamah engines are small and fairly light. Anything over 5hp in 4-cycle is too large. The manual has a drawing for one solution to the water in the lazarette problem when motoring. There is also a an engine hoist setup for us Senior Citizens.

[Mike Goodwin]

Ariel #45 & Commander #105 both have 6hp Nissan 4 stroke long shafts and they fit just fine and weigh about 50lbs .

[Mike Goodwin]

The 4 stroke Mercury 6hp and Tohatsu 6hp will also fit because they are the same motor as the Nissan .

[commanderpete]

The Association bylaws dictate that you cannot replace your engine until the engine repeatedly quits at the worst possible times.

Makes for good stories and improves seamanship.

[Bill]

This is true. You must have at least one good story.

Like the time our engine quite and the tide began carring us into shore. We were only saved when the tide changed and carried us back into the main channel. :)

[Scott Galloway]

John,

My 1965 Ariel, hull #330 uses a Honda 7.9n four-stroke engine. The OB well has been modified, as has the motor. The portside handle with throttle has been removed and a Lawnmower-style throttle is now located conveniently on the shift lever. It operates with the hatch open or closed, but is awkward to reach through the cutout at the aft end of the cockpit. This isn't a problem. All you have to do is lift the hatch briefly and adjust the throttle, or reach into the cutout and find the throttle. I usually operate the motor with the hatch open if the weather is good and I am just motoring in or out of the harbor. I have attached two photos of the modified well before I painted it. It is fairly easy to see that the well has been extended back to the transom with a trapezoidal cutout into which the aft end of the motor housing fits nicely. It's really a splendid installation done by a prior owner.

As for the motor, I use a Garhauer lifting davit, and it is a wonderful piece of work in beautiful gleaming stainless steel. Gene Roberts pioneered this solution. It is featured in the Ariel Maintenance manual…buy one today if you don't already own one…a manual that is. If you decide to buy the manual, follow Gene's directions, however as relates to the mounting ball at the base, insure that your through-cockpit-floor bolts are placed where you really want them, since the laminate in the cockpit is not a continuous sheet of balsa or plywood, but instead widely spaced planks of wood. I assume fir.

With the Garhauer lifting davit's included six-to-one block one can lift a ninety pound engine with only fifteen pounds of force. This is a real back saver. The Honda 7.9 stores nicely in the lazarette locker on its side. As long as you don't tack or jibe while you are using it, you can actually pull the motor at sea for any reason provided that the boat is somewhat upright. For long passages, this might be desirable. I had to pull my motor one fall afternoon to unfoul my prop after a particularly pesky kelp wrap.

The Honda 7.9 four stroke motor seems to have plenty of power, although I understand that many are getting by comfortably with fewer horses in their lazarette lockers.

[Scott Galloway]

And here is the second photo

[Mike Goodwin]

Scott,
Can you turn the motor at all by hand for backing up ? Doesn't look like more than a couple of degrees .
My Nissan will go about 80 degrees port or starboard .
I just lash the rudder amidships and steer with the motor in reverse.
I find that very important as these boats dont back well ( common fault of boats with a straight bottom keel )and it is easier to back in my slip than to back out , I singlehand a lot .
I had a guy in the marina once offer me $300 if I could back his inboard powered Cape Dory from the channel to the slip , like I did with my old gaff yawl .
Well I tried for 2 hours and all it wanted to do was go in circles after 2 boat lengths .
More drag to the keel would solve it , but also increase draft by nearly a foot .
I guess that's the price to pay for shallow draft.

Mike

[commanderpete]

Laying the motor on its side.

Your Owner's Manual may contain some warnings about storing the engine on its side. On some engines, you're only supposed to lay the motor on the throttle arm side.

I don't know if this applies to four strokes also.

[Scott Galloway]

Dear Mike and Commander Pete,

Yep, it applies to four stokes also, and I lay my motor down on the throttle-arm side, although the throttle arm has been removed. There are even little feet on that side of the motor so that the motor will rest flat.

Nope, the outboard doesn't turn significantly. I back out of my slip. Although it's sort of like driving backards down a dirt road in a pickup truck with no steering wheel. The backing process usually goes smoothly unless there is a current running. The current occurs a lot from this time of year through winter when the wave action is significant and in the event of fresh water runoff in the harbor, which is more or less a stream channel. This creates some interesting situations. With a current, it can get dicey. It would be nice to have a motor that spins. Since my Honda 7.9 nests inside trapezoidal extension pictured above, this is not possible.

One other interesting issue with my motor installation is that it appears from the installation and examination of the drawings in the manual that the previous owner also cut off the bottom of the backstay support knee to accommodate the installation of the Honda 7.9.

As a result of that discovery and the evident fatigue at the top of the backstay chainplate, I replaced my backstay chainplate with a brand new very thick chainplate of made of 304 stainless steel, and glassed in a small extension on the top of the knee and then added two more through-knee bolts through the chainplate on te top end.

I think that I would probably buy a Nissan 6 hp motor if I were to buy a new motor for the reasons that you state, and because of other input from owners. But hey, I have Honda 7.9 and it runs and fits.

By the way, no one has addressed John's question about flooding of the lazarette locker. Mine floods in a following sea at times, but not at other times. Perhaps the well extension helps. There is a fix in the manual that is very ingenious, and very inexpensive. The flooding has not adversely affected my boat's performance, but it does add a lot of moisture to the locker. You can't lave anything loose back there. The locker would serve as a pretty good saltwater washing machine under the right conditions.

In the Columbia 24 Challenger, Contender, and trunk cabin model Columbia 24 and also in the Columbia 26 MK I, flooding of the lazarette locker has been an issue for owners. I researched this a few years ago and addressed it in some detail on my Columbia web page, http://www.solopublications.com/sailcol.htm#columbia26

There are some good ideas there.


Any other thoughts on this issue?

[Mike Goodwin]

Scott ,
Ariel #45 hardly ever takes any water in the outboard well , whereas , Commander #105 scoops up a lot . Neither boat is loaded down with extra gear and both have the same motor , Nissan 6hp 4-stroke . I was very surprised by this when we launched 105 this summer and saw the water coming in the locker , with just 3 adults aboard .

BTW , used to sail on the old Columbias you mentioned , the factory was right here in town before they moved to the west coast . Really liked the Contender . The 26 is a great little crusier too .

[ebb]

What Mike says here from his own experience does illustrate ths anomaly between the Commander and the Ariel perfectly. I've noticed this too, but only here on the moniter.

I've commited (to the consternation of certain persons who believe a little Beta diesel in the belly of the boat is mo' betta than a banger on the butt) to a Yamaha 8 / 4 stroke / 110# not including the gas.

And there's a bunch of other stuff that might end up back there in the stern in my case. Not forgetting the skipper who weighs in for two normals.

So. Is there any science to this amazing paradox? The hulls are exactly the same, Right? Then it must have something to do with the trim, or where the ballast is in the keel. Is the balance point of the Ariel further forward than the Commander's? Is the mast in the same place? And then, the big C is designed to carry more people in the cockpit?

It's scary to think these two models of the same boat have this important and incomprehensible difference. What with all the changes 338 is going thru I could inadvertantly be changing 338 into the commander mode - as far as shipping water up the well. Personally, I'd sure like to hear ANY ideas!

For instance are the any outboard-in-well Commanders who don't take water in the lazarette?

Are there Ariels that do????

[commanderpete]

My Commander will ship a bunch of water in the lazarette at times. Filling the forward water tank helps to balance the boat a bit.

Perhaps those luxurious interior elements on the Ariel cause a difference in weight distribution.

I have some wood blocks with padeyes set in the floor of the lazarette to tie up the gas tank and keep it from bouncing around.

Those small gas tanks can get knocked over. Water may get into the gas tank through the vent hole and the engine won't start.

[Dan Maliszewski]

I'm currently running an '87 Evinrude 15 long shaft in my Ariel. It came with the boat, and is not without it's problems - heavy, gas hog, finicky - but it does swivel a bit and makes Adele M very controllable. (Not at all like her namesake). Anyhoo, with more than two in the cockpit she shipped water quite lively into the lazarette. I solved the problem by setting a few old scuba weight belts and extra weights onto the floor of the anchor house and always keeping the water tank full. A little water still sneaks in heeled over or in a big following sea, but not so bad.

Incidently, yesterday I ordered a 2003 Nissan 9.8 BEP2, which is the long shaft, electric start 9.8 hp with remote controls. Same externally as the 8hp Nissan that is so popular in Ariels. I'll be installing it next spring and will post the results.

[Theis]

The problem with my Ariel #82 taking on water in the lasarette when under motor power has been a real problem. When I first bought the boat in 1966, and was motoring down Lake Michigan, I almost sank because of it (the motor lasarette bulkhead leaked, and being a new boat to me, I was not aware of the source of the water. I just saw the water coming up over the floorboards).

The reason the problem is particularly severe is that when the lasarette is loaded with water, there is a loss of floatation in the stern and the bow rides high. The more water there is, the more the problem is compounded.

To remedy the problem, I inserted under each of the platforms on either side of the motor well 13" tire innertubes and inflated them. Although this does not stop water from coming in, it does limit the volume/weight of water in the lasarette and maintains the floatation.

Second, I drilled two 3/4" or 1" holes at the center of the forward end of the bottom of the motor well into the lasarette so that any water that accumulated in the lasarette could discharge. These holes are a bit above the ambient water level, but under water when under motor power - so they drain.

Now the big step: My motor now is an 8hp Yamaha 2cycle, long shaft. This year I largely solved the water problem, and with a little more work think it will be totally solved. An additional problem with the Yamaha, incidentally, is that exhaust fumes come up throught the motor well. I can not close the cover when the motor is running because it will fill with exhaust and choke out the motor.

I cut a hole in bottom of the the motor well "insert" (the piece you put in the hole when you are not using the outboard) so that the lower unit of the OB would pass through it. Thus, now the insert is used even with the motor in place.

Then, around the edge of the cutout, I built a fiberglass vertical "wall", the top extending horizontally forward from the level of the cutout at the back of the insert. Thus, now, there is a level rectangular surface surrounding the cutout in the bottom of the insert.

On top of that surface I mounted a self stick foam rubber gasket.

Continuing, on the lower unit of the motor, I built a horizontally oriented fiberglass cover plate. The plate is secured to the lower unit with fiberglass. It is sealed - tight. The glass adheres to the lower unit very well. The cover plate is now a permanent part of the motor.

When the motor is mounted in place, the coverplate fits over the foam rubber gasket and seals in the well (and also prevents exhaust from working up into the motor well. Although there can still be leakage, it is small enough in volume so that it drains through the drain hole in the front/bottom of the motor well and does not accumulate.

One other fix: On the back underside of outboards are a couple holes that serve as pressure relief for the exhaust. When the motor is in gear, the exhaust is sucked out of the propellor. When in idle or very low speeds, however, there is no such draw, and these two holes become the exhaust ports. Being inside the lasarette, they fill the lasarette with exhaust and the exhaust chokes out the motor.

I connected a fitting to each hole (secured with epoxy), connected a neoprene hose to the fitting and ran the hose through the cover plate so that the exhaust runs under the stern.

I know it works with regard to the lasarette filling. Next year will tell if I have fixed the exhaust problem. The reason I would like the cover closed is that, with the motor running, it is so much quiter (and looks better too).

[Mike Goodwin]

2 questions;
Can you still steer with the motor when backing ?

How long does it take to pull or mount the motor with this setup ?

[SkipperJer]

Any chance of pictures of your setup? I have an 8HP Sailmaster that drives the boat very well but the exhaust circulating up into the lazerette is a real problem.

[Theis]

Answers to questions:

No, I don't use the motor to steer. But I have the Yamaha prop that has a very powerful reverse. The conventional outboard prop cavitates in reverse. The exhaust is forced out aft of the prop and is sucked into the prop when in reverse causing the cavitation. With the Yamaha prop (and it may be available on others), the exhaust leaves forward of the prop so the prop gets a good bite on the water. In other words, when going forward, the exhaust goes astern, and when in reverse, it goes forward.

As for taking the motor out, it doesn't take long. The biggest job is disconnecting the electrical. Then, the motor, the clamps, the prop and all have to be carefully guided out. Getting the prop through the cut out is not a problem. Between the unscrewed clamps and the back of the motor, there is not much space in the opening of the lasarette. That is where there is a tight fit.

One of the design criteria was that I would be able to get the motor out relatively expeditiously. With the motor weighing perhaps 70 pounds, it takes a bit of lifting effort, but that isn't any different than if the motor was simply put through the well.

One of design reasons, though, that I did not make the plate that is mounted to the engine the same size as the insert, is that I feared that it might be difficult to mount and extricate the motor because I would not have been able to rotate the motor when extricating it.

I should mention, that, except for repairs, my motor is left in the water throughout the season. I believe the Bay Area sailors take the motor out when racing (but they also have lighter motors without electrical starts and generators, as I recall).

As for a drawing (I don't have photos at this time) I'll try to make some sketches this weekend. Sketches should be better anyway if you'll put up with my drawing skills (friends - whoops, that should be singular - say I should have been a doctor, considering how I write).

[Theis]

Sorry for the delay of how I sealed the well, but I decided to take pictures rather than to rely on my drawing capabilities. In the following set of pictures, you will notice rough edges. I have improvements to the system that are in process. These rough epoxy edges will be sanded smooth- but these pictures will give the general idea.

If anyone wants a complete set of the pictures, give me the address and I will send them to you.

[Theis]

This is the front view showing the walls

[Theis]

This is the bottom view of the motor well insert

[Theis]

This is the flange mounted on the motor. Notice how it curls up in back approximating the back of the motor well insert

[Theis]

This is the back of the motor. Notice the two tubes that conduct the exhaust under the flange and out of the motor well.

[SkipperJer]

Thanks for the photos. They are a big help to the imagination-impaired.

[ebb]

RearCom Theis,
May I echo the above - Thanks for the informative photos.

Heard a rumor here that some racers on the Bay sit in the ob laz and kick their feet. It's a gas. Cheaper than gas, and environmentally sound.

[Bill]

Not true Ebb. We use a paddle . . .;)

[Theis]

I have to say it does look like the insert has an alternative use.

Peter

[Robert Lemasters]

My Commander(105) takes on water now and then in the lazarette. What I don't understand why it dosn't take on water all of the time? The last time I went out about a week ago the lazarette stayed dry. Note that I went hard aground and that the Nissan 6hp motor was able to back the boat out without much trouble. I like this motor very much, it has plenty of power for this boat. Well 'Sparkey" has had the commings redone and the Pearson Commander name plates have been rechromed. I am now repacing the companionway washboards with new ones made from African mahogny. My wife Pat and I just love this boat, I understand that Alberg sailed a Commander.

[Brent]

#66 has a a bracket on the transom (which will be removed).

According to the PO, the engine would choke on its own exhaust if the lazarette hatch was closed, so they would run with it open. But #66 would take water in the lazarette and that would splash into the cockpit, hence the bracket.