has anyone ever hung a 9.9 off the stern?

[Poodle Head Mikey]

The present A-4 is never again going to be fixed by me so this Ariel either gets abandoned or powered with an electric start 9.9 Honda LS that I have sitting here. The stern seems pretty sturdy and I can cut a big piece of 3/4 plywood for inside the lazarette to spread the loading.

Has anyone ever done it to an inboard Ariel?

Think the stern will stand up to it? I am guessing but the Honda seems to weight most of 100 lbs.

There is presently a heavy Group 29 battery in the lazarette which could be relocated forward to offset some of the boat's balance.

Opinions?

[c_amos]

The majority of Ariel's had an outboard in a well, the conversion is pretty streight forward. The part you will likely want to focus on is the construction of the well. There are many pictures here.

It is widely held that these boats don't like the stern bracket for a couple of reasons. First the weight hung so far aft really upsets the trim... Even being 2' aft of the position in the well makes a big difference.

Second, and maybe more importantly, the controls are very difficult to operate because of the lazarette.... You are stretching pretty far back, and down.... A recipe for falling overboard at worst, and cumbersome at best.

I have sailed an Alberg 30 with an outboard in the transom and it was a real handful to dock!

The 9.9 is a little big and heavy, but many folks have used them. I delivered Ariel Spirit (#3) when it was purchased it hAd a Merc 9.9 2 stroke, it was replaced by a 9.9 4 stroke. Neither moved it any better then the Yamaha 6 and Tohatsu 6 that I use on my own Ariel (#226).

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Thanks but I'm looking to do less work - not more. <g> And building a well means giving up the lazarette and then doing a bunch of work besides. I think I'd rather fix the inboard than build an outboard well. <g>

The boat is 60 miles from my house and shop and tools and mechanical resources and plus; it really annoys me essentially working like a hobo out in the middle of a far-away field. I built a trailer to haul my Columbia 29 around on and so I know I just can't manage building a trailer for this boat. Or even a cradle - to use a flatbed trailer. I am looking for an easy way out to go sailing again soon - not a project to add to my always huge must-do list.

Maybe it's time for the Ariel to go and for me to buy something more suitable to my outboard. It's a shame; it's a nice boat otherwise. 12V refrigeration, onboard fire suppression, all kinds of nice widgets and gadgets and upgrades. It does need varnish and deck paint but I'd sail with it all that way if I had to.

I'd have to be really in love to do an inboard engine replacement - and I'm just not that head-over-heels. <g>

Thanks for the word-picture regarding operating the outboard controls out past the stern rail. You make it easy to picture the bad-ness of that. It's awkward getting back there just to put the stern ladder up. <g>

PHM
-------




The majority of Ariel's had an outboard in a well, the conversion is pretty streight forward. The part you will likely want to focus on is the construction of the well. There are many pictures here.

It is widely held that these boats don't like the stern bracket for a couple of reasons. First the weight hung so far aft really upsets the trim... Even being 2' aft of the position in the well makes a big difference.

Second, and maybe more importantly, the controls are very difficult to operate because of the lazarette.... You are stretching pretty far back, and down.... A recipe for falling overboard at worst, and cumbersome at best.

I have sailed an Alberg 30 with an outboard in the transom and it was a real handful to dock!

The 9.9 is a little big and heavy, but many folks have used them. I delivered Ariel Spirit (#3) when it was purchased it hAd a Merc 9.9 2 stroke, it was replaced by a 9.9 4 stroke. Neither moved it any better then the Yamaha 6 and Tohatsu 6 that I use on my own Ariel (#226).

[ebb]

Who invented and still sells the Cape Horn Integrated Self Steering Wind Vane.
{...sorry, somehow repeat of following post...}

[ebb]

Who invented and still sells the CapeHornIntegraredSelfSteeringWindVane....
40 years ago, sailed his Alberg 30 around the world with the outboard rigged off the
side of the cockpit on a spar of some sort, that could be hinged out of the
water to remove it when voyaging.

Imagine it probably was a fairly light, under powered 2 stroke.

You can also find electric Torqeedo's clampted off the rail near the cockpit.
Light enough to lift one handed and toss into the lazarette.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I used s SeaGull outboard that way on a small sailboat for a while. The mount was just a pipe in a tube bracketed to the deck.

Fine in smooth water but if the boat rolled even slightly the prop was out of the water. <g>

The well is the only feasible way to use an outboard I think. Thanks again for helping me. I guess the Ariel has to go.

I have houses un-rebuilt in Florida, a house un-maintained for years in NJ, and a refrigeration / mechanical contracting business to run. Doing the inboard over just isn't gong to be on My List for far too long to contemplate it.

PHM
-------



Who invented and still sells the CapeHornIntegraredSelfSteeringWindVane....
40 years ago, sailed his Alberg 30 around the world with the outboard rigged off the
side of the cockpit on a spar of some sort, that could be hinged out of the
water to remove it when voyaging.

Imagine it probably was a fairly light, under powered 2 stroke.

You can also find electric Torqeedo's clampted off the rail near the cockpit.
Light enough to lift one handed and toss into the lazarette.

[SkipperJer]

Just to add to the trim issue: I use a 60's vintage 6HP Johnson which drives my Commander as well as the 9 HP Johnson that came with the boat. It weighs 45 pounds. We pull the motor and insert the plug when we race. The trim is not as good when we leave the motor laying on its side in the lazerette. It makes a noticeable difference to haul it below into the cabin. I think moving it forward makes more of a difference than moving it low.

If you must do this at least get a much lighter motor. Worst Marine used to carry a 5HP Mercury that I've seen other Ariel owners use (although none had it on the transom). They were happy with that. Make sure you get a long shaft. Hung out that far aft you'll be spinning free more than you think when you get into rollers. You'd be surprised how quickly you can overheat in steady rollers when the cooling water is intermittent due to the shaft being out of the water as the bow goes up and down.

[ebb]

Sorry we didn't convince you!!!

Have to admit it's a bit unfair that a nasty ole OB has to sway your decision to get rid of your
Ariel.

You sound employed.
Bite the bullet.
Why not consider an electric OB? Torqeedo Cruise have an extra long shaft, 29" I believe,
if they measure it from the clamp to the prop. You'll have to put up with high cost and the
battery thing. But if the gas engine, its smell and its negative issues weighs so strong in your
decision to sell what is a really marvelous little sailboat... perhaps going electric with PV
panels is more of a solution that will inspire.

Good luck!

[Poodle Head Mikey]

I do like the boat - but I like sailing more. I am fully capable of rebuilding the A-4 - but when will that happen? That is my problem. Even the outboard 'solution' wouldn't me sailing before spring. The boat is hauled now and my Club pulls the boats and the moorings before November 1 every year. So this year is effectively shot.

Sure: all kinds of ideas intrigue me: maybe a rehabbed block from Moyer and then use all/most of the already-new parts from the present engine to build something bulletproof and test run it here on an engine stand before installing it.

But really . . . . no time. And if I am going to spend several thousand on the Ariel - why not just buy a more ready-to-go boat and save the hassle? Hell; I just turned down a Morgan 25 yesterday for $1.00 A Dollar! <g> Decent boat, well equipped, all set up to use an outboard. Every time I see something like that it becomes even more disheartening to contemplate doing all the work on this boat.

PHM
-------




Sorry we didn't convince you!!!

Have to admit it's a bit unfair that a nasty ole OB has to sway your decision to get rid of your
Ariel.

You sound employed.
Bite the bullet.
Why not consider an electric OB? Torqeedo Cruise have an extra long shaft, 29" I believe,
if they measure it from the clamp to the prop. You'll have to put up with high cost and the
battery thing. But if the gas engine, its smell and its negative issues weighs so strong in your
decision to sell what is a really marvelous little sailboat... perhaps going electric with PV
panels is more of a solution that will inspire.

Good luck!

[ebb]

a realist!

( s i g h )

[sinbin]

Have been hanging an outboard off the stern since 1994. Beefed it up with plywood backing and 2 layers of roving, leaving the backstay chainplate exposed to air. Have been in 30 knot conditions and (embarrassingly) hit the beach one time. Stern is still intact with no evidence of stress (cracks, distortion, etc.) 2 stroke Mercury 5 (48) lbs and 2 stroke Evinrude 6 (60 lbs.). Checked by boatbuilder (Wilderness, Moore) and engineer. Not recommending you do this, just saying. Wish I hadn't Sikaflexed the plug. Will take a special tool if I ever want to undo it.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

How do you manage the outboard engine controls from the cockpit as they are way out behind and across the lazarette? It just seems like a law and awkward reach. No?

The weight didn't scare me - even though this 9.9 of mine is more like 90-100 lbs rather than 50-60 - what really stopped me was the idea of the awkwardness of controlling the engine controls and the boat's tiller at the same time.

How do you find it?

PHM
-------



Have been hanging an outboard off the stern since 1994. Beefed it up with plywood backing and 2 layers of roving, leaving the backstay chainplate exposed to air. Have been in 30 knot conditions and (embarrassingly) hit the beach one time. Stern is still intact with no evidence of stress (cracks, distortion, etc.) 2 stroke Mercury 5 (48) lbs and 2 stroke Evinrude 6 (60 lbs.). Checked by boatbuilder (Wilderness, Moore) and engineer. Not recommending you do this, just saying. Wish I hadn't Sikaflexed the plug. Will take a special tool if I ever want to undo it.

[sinbin]

Actually, I've been hanging off the stern myself - the biggest stretch is to control the shifter. Need to kneel on the lazarette for that and for starting. Backstay makes a good handhold. Throttle can be controlled w/o leaving the cockpit. Whenever in doubt, I attach myself to the boat with a lanyard. Am set up for singlehanding, incl tiller pilot, which I mostly do. You could always have a crew member assist (hang on to lanyard, etc). I don't consider operating the motor off the stern any more sketchy than going forward to change a headsail or secure the main. Don't worry about having to start it in heavy airs - you won't need to. I beefed up my stern based on cautions about it in the manual.

[Poodle Head Mikey]

Do you have your outboard mount centered on the stern? Or offset to one side or the other?

And if to one side; which one and why? <g>

PHM
-------




Actually, I've been hanging off the stern myself - the biggest stretch is to control the shifter. Need to kneel on the lazarette for that and for starting. Backstay makes a good handhold. Throttle can be controlled w/o leaving the cockpit. Whenever in doubt, I attach myself to the boat with a lanyard. Am set up for singlehanding, incl tiller pilot, which I mostly do. You could always have a crew member assist (hang on to lanyard, etc). I don't consider operating the motor off the stern any more sketchy than going forward to change a headsail or secure the main. Don't worry about having to start it in heavy airs - you won't need to. I beefed up my stern based on cautions about it in the manual.

[sinbin]

My bracket is centered for no good reason except maybe for weight distribution. The main concern was getting the height right in order that the long shaft motor would bite at the correct depth and angle when running. Seems to have worked out so far. Between you and me, though, I wouldn't want more than 60 lbs hanging off the back of "Sinbin" the way I have set it up. Reinforcing the stern is a definite consideration. There is a story of an Ariel losing it's stern in the Berkeley chop due to having an outboard on a bracket.

[sinbin]

Hi.

Sorry to take so long to answer. I've never considered it difficult to operate the controls on the outboard. I've taken it out once or twice a month for 29 years now. First in the SF Bay and then in Monterey Bay. Conservatively, I figure I've put over 100NM per year on her. Do the math. In my old age, I turn the motor off, put her in reverse and let her hang in the water for the rest of the sail while I have a nice lunch. I'm mostly a single hander and my crew is a great Nautico tiller pilot.