finishing epoxy work

[Tony G]

I have a question regarding finishing areas that have had a micro balloon mixture applied. Do you need to over coat these areas with straight epoxy prior to priming or will multiple coats of high-build primer suffice for the top coats of paint?

[carbonsoup]

A question that I am starting to think about with Triumph's rebuild! I am not a finishing expert, however I would think that the epoxy with micro ballon would be sufficient to protect itself. The high build primer is there to help level and prepare the surface to bond to the paint for a durable and lasting finish. I don't think that applying a surface coat of epoxy will harm anything, but perhaps a bit unnecessarily costly.

[Tony G]

I did find in one of West Systems booklets they recommend top coating over their light density fillers. Being I am using "generic" cab-o-sil and phenolic micro-balloons and not WS products I thought we would float that question out there. CRIMONEY, If I go around the entire boat top coating the fairing compound, we'll have another gallon of epoxy applied, and then have to sand half of that off to feather the edge to hide it. Admittedly, I am a cheap skate (and currently unemployed) so if this step is more marketing than science, I'd just as soon spend the time and money else where.

[Bisquit]

Here's what I was told at Glue U - the West System three day seminar in Bay City MI. You need to seal the surface with straight epoxy. The microbaloons are just that - tiny balloons. The interior of the balloons do not get sealed when they are added to the epoxy. When you sand the surface you expose the interiors of thousands if microscopic balloons. Microbaloons by themselves are not suited for wet environments. If you don't seal the faired surface you can end up with microblisters years later. I have seen this happen. You can use most epoxies to seal the surface. Interlux IP2000E is good, so is Awlgrip 545, Durapox or Awl Grip High Build primer. The West System straight epoxy works but is harder to sand than the others. If you are prepping the hull sides for paint then an epoxy primer is called for with most two part paint systems. It should do the trick.

[carbonsoup]

marketing. though I have been using pulp for more volume/strength, I am just now getting into more 'finish' building and fairing.

also, in case you are looking to buy more epoxy I have used epoxyproducts.com for my rebuild and have been very happy with the results. The basic non-blush has been excellent and about 1/2 the cost of the equivalent West Systems. If you can navigate epoxyproducts' website... there is quite a bit of useful info.

[ebb]

(Former text here removed by the author)
What I meant to say is that if the fairing compound you are using is phenolic spheres like
WetsSystems 407 powder that when mixed with lam epoxy produces a chocolate colored
paste... this imco creates a structural surface that will not require a liquid coat of plain
epoxy to finish.
This compound can be used above and below the waterline. Could say each miniscule
sphere is encapsulated in epoxy, so that even when sanded the surface is not porous as
the spheres are not connected -- could say the compound is closed cell, and has enough
epoxy in it, when mixed it into a spreadable paste, to seal a prepped gelcoat.
If you feel you need to leave an homogenous 'seal', ebb's cheat is to slather on a slightly
thinned (xylene) 2-part lam epoxy over the finished surface.... let it soak.... wipe it off
with rags so that the skin formed is IN the surface. Sanding will be minimal. If you have
labored mightily for a beautiful fair surface (yet to be hi-build primed for paint),
you've still got it.
Below the WL, when finishing repairs, preparing thruhulls, and fairing, I would barrier coat
with a white epoxy paint from epoxyproducts.com. Your choice. If unsure, ask the propr
PaulOmen, he will steer you to the correct stuff. At the moment I forget the immersed
square footage: something like 125 per side -- correct me if I'm wrong.
straight measure from keel bottom to waterline = 10ft
times that by WL.............................................= 18ft
times that by a coefficient of your choice.......... = 0.7 = 125 x2 = 250 square ft.

WetsSystems has another lighter fairing compound, 410. It mixes up tan colored and
comes with a caution that it CANNOT be used in high heat situations as in a deck, say.
I won't use it... even though the 407 when set requires harder work to sand.
Fairing compounds are available from other vendors. Haven't tried most of them. Tried to
make my own compound, nothing matches the 407 for ease of use, It's a great product.

Working up top or inside on the bloody hull, most of us will have done the impossible and
removed the original Pearson paint. If you are refurbishing with new lockers and cabinets
by tabbing with strips of X-matt or glass, what I've done is after the initial paste up, rough
sand ridges & globs, spread a light gel of cabosil & epoxy (which produces a very hard
surface)... and with a flexible green plastic spreader smooth & fair for final sanding,
within a few days of set.
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EPIFANES
is a 100yearold Dutch paint company, known primarily in the US for its varnish.
Decided to become familiar with their other coatings after my traumatic blowout with
System3. Won't use Interplux paints because of their unholy alliance with WetsMarine,
whom, as you know I also have problems with. Interplux is an arm of an even larger
conglomerate and is not an independent paint company. I know it's more convenient to
use WM and WS and Interpaint for small projects....have no problem with that. I consider
WetsMarine a convenience store much like 7-11, where you'd never go for a cappuccino.

Sort of found self with this Epifanes thing, probably because I got a can of varnish...
before I made the choice to go with LeTonkinois, which is a very simple, straightforward
traditional varnish that works well and is not even sold with a solvent thinner. Epifanes
varnish has gotten a great rep. It's traditional varnish that has been tweeked with modern
petro chemicals. It is not green, not new generation, but not as lethal as some others.

I've commited to their one-pot mono-urethanes, which seem to be in the same 'system'
in that all one-part Epifanes paint & varnish use the same thinner. However, the mono
must be isolated from two-part epoxy. ONLY usable primer is their MultiMarinePrimer.
Couple more things to consider:
Their cans are not quarts but 750ml, considerably less, annoying. Sloppy marketing has
done Epifanes no favors, very little about paints on the web, in part due to confusing
info on application. 24 hr dry times for their products is another real problem, if indeed
in actual use this proves necessary.... Recoating primer = 12hrs, which is next day....
2 days for incidental touchup filler to dry. You know, it should be almost instantaneous
(one hour) between apps.... Monourethane wants 24hrs between coats to air dry &
sand at 65F. Goes on thin, need 3 to 4 or more coats when going to the tropics.
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"If you lose your confidence, you lose your talent." D.Trump 2/18/2016 (overheard on tv)

[ebb]

(Original text removed by author)
SMSDistributors.com have become my vendor of choice. EG, this special tie-coat
primer is $17 cheaper here than at the enemy's. This primer has americanized data
sheets on the SMS web catalog page. This and a below list price makes this vendor
friendly, this point in time.

interimcoat is a two-part epoxy (6 to 1 by vol) that can be used above & below WL.
Imco this is primarily a tiecoat to use to insure adhesion when changing paint systems,
for example: going from bare fiberglass hull to bottom paint. Or bare hull to pigmented
2-part barrier. Or pigmented barrier coat to bottom paint, if thought needed. Or to go
from two-part lam epoxy seal coat on wood to one part or two part sanding primer.
However its bona fide purpose within the Epifanes family is not entirely clear to me.
This is essentially a two-part epoxy UNDERWATER primer.

MEASURING TWO PART
For no-brainer accuracy when combining proportions, measure volumes into graduated
translucent plastic 3oz cups* or 32oz quarts. Mark the proportions, including the level of
both parts, on a single container with a Sharpie. Measure in sideA -- then layer sideB
catalyst on top. Get a perfect visual check. Straight sided containers, flat stir sticks.
Critical work? Dump the whole mix into another container and stir again. Haven't missed
yet, except when I get the proportions wrong! 6 to 1 sounds problematic. It IS when we
don't know how far a quantity will cover. Can't help that. In a common 3oz graduated
cup*, 1/2 ounces are easy to see and quickly repeatable: 1/2ozB added to 3ozA for small
amounts. Since primer is thin, and will be rolled on, perhaps 6oz to 1oz in the qt mixing
container is even easier and will load a 4" foam roller in a tray better. 8hr pot life.

interimcoat comes in a two can 750ml stack. Which is 5 ounces short of a quart: 27oz.
$49.49+ = $2oz! Must be special! Don't waste it. http://smsdistributors.com/
POURING SPOUTS
There are inexpensive bendy plastic spouts that snap into the interior of a paint can rim
that will keep liquid out of the moat. Reusable. Might also find the disposable cardboard
'V-Spouts' in paint stores that also get sprung into the can's moat.
'Paintin'PalPaintStretcherSpout' (gal, qt, pint paint cans) http://www.smsdistributors.com/
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EPIFANES MULTI MARINE PRIMER
This all-purpose Multi Marine Primer is more interesting, as it is used both as a transitional
primer on epoxy work above the waterline and also as a get right-to-it sanding primer for
any finish coating to come. Epifanes constantly cautions that previous two-part epoxy
coats must be degreased before sanding. Old work also degreased before sanding. Water
and ammonia are suggested. E. spray-thinner can also be used. Since I don't spray, I
know exactly what can I'm reaching for....it's the degreasing solvent. Isopropyl Alcohol is
more friendly for the user. EMMP is a one part epoxyester that cures by drying instead of
catalyzing. Can be used above or below anything except below the WL, with appropriate
prep including mono-urethanes and LPU. $28.50 750ml, a little more than 3/4s of a qt.
For comparison, that makes the per quart price about $38. Can Interpaint match this?

The only real restriction is using two-part epoxy and fairing filler over this primer:
"is not recommended." (:pAgain, it's because they think you will use a WetsSystem
epoxy which likes to amine blush... and out-gas solvents.) Most paint systems have a
white knifing paste for scratches & pinholes. Epi's 8oz tube says COMBI Filler.$12.
The rest is in Dutch, so I'll use it sparingly for tiny repairs. Droogtijd is 24hrs.

EMMP adheres to everything including stainless steel. It improves adhesion of the next
one part or two part coating . Hi-build, covers well, fills grain. Easy. Did I say: the surface
this primer goes on must be degreased before it's sanded? Also dry, free of salt and dust.

Want a 1000ml (1qt+) bottle/can of spray thinner for wipe-down. And a can of brushing
thinner for the primer. Which is added sparingly up to 5%. Both thinners work for all
ONE-part Epi paints and varnishes. $13.**

On other vender websites, accessing data sheets may bring up first generation translations,
which to me have been confusing.

SMS, uniquely, seems to be the only web vender to have updated datasheets on these
products. SMS gave me the opportunity to download a recent Epifanes Technical Manual.
It has 20pgs on their varnish products, 10pgs paints, 6pgs primers, 1pg brushes & rollers,
3pgs tech advice, 15pgs Q&A all about varnish. 60pgs total. Interimcoat primer here
is not included in the TechManual. The document seems to have gone through an American
editor and is therefor fairly readable. Haven't had enough experience with these products.
Not advocating their use. EDIT (Probably 10 years behind here, don't look in print catalogs
much: 2016HamiltonMarine just arrived, has nearly all Epifanes products at similar prices.)
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BEFORE SANDING
Information sheets are constantly chanting:: DEGREASE Before Sanding.
Seems to be a good rule to keep in mind for any brand or coating system. Not only one
and two part epoxies wiped down with isopropyl alcohol - or Epi spray thinner* - or water
& ammonia - but also 'old' work that has been sitting around for awhile. Which happens
with me a lot! It's a smart rule when changing systems, eg: going from epoxy prep to
a primer. If the primer, even sanding primer, is epoxy, Epi advises to De-Grease.
NEVER USE WHITE SANDPAPER on your boat. Coating may also leave a residue behind.
Sanding creates mini grooves which can be imprinted with amine blush-grease-oil-wax
-soap-stearate-latex -- impossible to completely remove as an afterthought with solvents.
Doesn't seem difficult to automatically do, except for the toxics involved.
Why introduce water and terrible smelling ammonia (another bottle) into the prep?
91% Isopropyl drugstore rubbing alcohol seems least lethal and chases moisture as well.
Humidity is problematic, but Epifanes data sheets advise, and local weather reports
publish dew-points. Keep a wall thermometer & barometer on the work site.
Rags, especially terry rags can leave lint. Never found a perfect rag yet. Old Tshirts.
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**Epi brush & spray thinner are primarily naptha. Spray has an added dollop of n-hexan.
Both are constituents of gasoline. Forum says generics won't work with products. Pricey
brushes can be rag cleaned, mineral spirit washed, stored hung in kerosene for extended
periods, years. EpifanesQ&A is absolutely nuts about brush cleaning, particularly varnish.

(LATER EDIT: Have converted to LeTonkinois No. 1 'varnish', applied with name brand
Epifanes MOLTOPREN 4" micro-foam rollers, tipped with foam 'brush' Jen brand, the ones
with wood dowel handles. LeTonk is an old fashioned no-solvent china oil coating. The
roller quickly applies an even thin coat every time. The coating doesn't mind the foam
drawn across multiple times, hardly wetting the tip. NO BRUSH CLEANING. No petroleum
products at all! Very quick and very pleasurable. This is an outdoor exterior varnish.
Coupled with this is another revelation. LeTonkinois is sold in in a squarish can with an
impossible press-on lid. We decant the whole contents in a liter STOP LOSS BAG. Product
lives in a plastic seethru bag that allows air to be squeezed completely out and sealed until
next time. NO skin. But we do filter before using. Good deal from Duckworks Boat Supply.
type into google: Stop Loss Bags - Duckworks)

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Best jig to carry coatings around the boat is the Wooster Pelican green polypropylene
sculpted quart bucket with one big cup handle (7"w-7"h-9"l). Has a flat for a 4" roller and
magnet to hang a brush. Uses clear formfit liners, $1+ ea - pricey. SO handy & convenient
you can't imagine how you got along without it. http://www.thepaintstore.com/ Make a
roller grid from expanded aluminum flattened sheet: https://www.onlinemetals.com
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ACCURATELY MIXING SMALL AMOUNTS
*3oz clear PP cups are called 100ml BEAKERS, TAP Plastics http://www.tapplastics.com/
(Type 'plastic beakers' into the onsite search window top of page.) Large enough to hold
in a gloved hand, accurate enough to put together various smaller 2part mixes for
incidental jobs. Detailed enough to see part B levels, because you can hold this small
beaker up to eye level in one hand, while white knuckling a gallon jug at the correct
angle for CSI accuracy. 50c each, but easy to wipe clean with alcohol. This 100ml/3oz
clear plastic container is embossed (inside!) with both graduations, making it easy to
accurately, in the beaker, mix up various small proportions of 2to1 epoxies. Reusable.
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"Sorry to interrupt myself, but it's the only way I stop talking." Rush Limbaugh