rudder bearing source

[ebb]

Not only does Polymer Plastics (www.polymerplastics.com) have Delrin rod but have it in black AND will machine a rudder post bearing to the specs in the Manual for $53.25. FOB Reno.

Now I've got to find the O-rings. Unless somebody knows a source they could post here?

[Tony G]

Ebb
Is it rubber o-rings that you desire? I have a whole box/case thingymajiggy full of them. Just let me know what size and I'll crack it open and try to find something that'll fit the bill. I suppose since I'm one of 'them' that have a whole lot of nothing under the post cap I should order one, maybe two of those bearings. Tony G.

[ebb]

hiya Capt. Tony.
I'm unsure what the dimensions of the two O-rings are as I can't read it clear off the specs. And I found an O-ring site by google but gave up for the moment because I didn't find a match in their lists. Will get back to it when awake.

3/32" seems right for thickness. The diameters must have to be pretty close as the rings won't stretch that good - the inside one against the shaft has to fit perfect.

Didn't think to ask P. Plastics if they could supply them or knew a source, I was just trying to get the rod and the rep (Larry) emailed that they could make the bearing. Right away took em up on it. Didn't shop around. Don't have wife to argue money with. Ordered two.

Will be prepared for 70 years of smooth sailing.

On pg 168 of the Manual can you or can anybody explain the double numbers used in the drawing of the bearing that designate the two grooves?:confused:

[ebb]

Polymer Plastics got the two black slick 'n sleek delrin bushing/bearings to me yesterday. If something so precisely machined can be a work of art these will entirely suffice. Beautiful. The specs are right out of the Association manual.

O-rings required:
Inside against the one inch rudder shaft 1" ID - 1.25" OD.

Outside against the rudder tube 1.25" - 1.50" OD

The grooves are nearly .18 inch wide. And .125 deep (i/8")

But it ain't that simple. Being deprived of O-ring experience, commonsense tells me that the grooves should be pretty well occupied with rubber, what rubber? How these rings get squeezed is important. (There are material choices such as neoprene, viton and urethane. Whether they are available in small quantity is the question. You want rubber that is highly resistant to compression set and abrasion.) What's the rubber used in a cutlass bearing, I wonder?

The O-rings in 338's original bearing are flat. Like they were never round. Very flat.

Seems to me the o-ring against the shaft will have to be replaced regularly because it is constantly being exercised, worn. The rudder tube one just sits there.

Tony, maybe I'll take you up on yer offer. Or better yet, did you get an assortment or kit? Might be a good thing to have. Where'd you get it, the assortment??? What's the material? Cheers. (looking at the website below, an assorment would be about 7000 pieces!!!!)

__________________________________________________ ___________ www.allorings.com
has a sizing chart for the O-rings they carry. My choice for the inside one would be: dash # -317. outside one: dash # -321. Anybody want to discuss these choices here, let's do it. There are information pages here on stretching, compressing, static and working rubber rings. And materials. Amaze your friends with yer O-ring trivia.:cool:

[Tony G]

Ebb
That's right! I've got one here in my hot little hands-A Nation O-Ring Service Set, kit No. OK 311. Don't know why, probably something I was building needed a little rubber cement and I got all carried away. Sometimes that happens. I forgot all about this thread! Your first reply was back at the begining of this month when I was in Racine lurking about the marinas trying to spot Theis. No luck but I did manage to find a triton wasting away on the hard. (did pick up an Ensign though-good deal too)
Yeah, if you want rubber o-rings they're here. This thing starts 1/8" ID and 1/16" wall thickness and goes up to 1 3/4" ID with 3/16" wall thickness.
The sizes you picked out are #'s 214 and 217 in Minnesota! 1"ID and 1 1/4" OD and 1 3/16" ID and 1 7/16" OD respectively. You can go(?) up or down in 1/16" increments and that's no excrement!
I'm already envious, Ebb, those bushings must be keeping you up at night. Did they give you a job number or reference number in case some of us poor(frozen)lots would like to have one fasioned? The price seems right. (Just got our bid back a few days ago for a new bow pulpit and I still don't dare venture too far from the bathroom! Whew!) These rubber o-rings are just rubber o-rings no fancy schmancy stuff here. If you want to give some of them a try just let me know and I'll mail some off to you. And please, take pictures...lots of pictures......113 is under her winter tarp and I must now live vicariously through the rest of you for the next 5-6 months. So I'll put down the saw and pick up a pencil. So far I've accumulated a scrap book of ideas thick enough to fit out a 40 footer. Incurable dreamer am I

[ebb]

Capitan Tony:
Minnisotan sizes 214 and 217 are also used as "Stat" number sizes in the Alloring sizing chart. The 200 group are 1/8' wide.

So, the grooves in the bushing are 11/64" wide - not quite 3/16" . I'm thinking the 300 O-rings are the way to go if you can fit one by stretching it into the groove it's width will have decreased slightly making for a very snug fit.
That logic works for the outer ring. And not having experimented with a whole lot of rubber rings - perhaps a slightly smaller (15/16" diameter X 3/16" wide) would be correct for the inner one. The rudder shaft squeezing the ring tightly into the groove.

Anyway, doing this from scratch, I'm curious about the correct rubber and what's available to the sailing public.

You're right tho in that this isn't really exact science. But wouldn't it be clever to have a handful of these rings so that you could pop new ones in every spring, say, like a new zinc or bottom. A nice tight slippery action tiller under yer arm.

It isn't those sweet bearings keeping me up at night but a foxy new nutritionist at the foodstore. I wish SHE was keeping me up at night.:D

[ebb]

Choices for the rings are Polyurethane, Buna-N, EPDM, Silicone, Viton, Teflon AND Neoprene. Neoprene is resistant to compression set, tearing, abrasion, ozone, weathering, animal/vegetable oils, ammonia. It's ok with aliphatic & aromatic hydrocarbons (petroleum fuel oils) and toluene. It's no good with dilute acids & alkalies or synthetic lube like silicone grease or MEK.

In case you want to lubricate yer rudder head with something beside crisco or vegie oil. Wonder if lithium grease is ok???

I chose Neoprene #214 for the working side and #218 for the static side in the frp rudder tube. They are 1/8." Think the next size up, 3/16" would be too fat. Rings go on very easy but are sloppy in the grooves. I think this was intentional so that the rings have some space to squeeze into when working. Tho they don't squeeze all that much, just enough. Haven't mounted the rudder yet...

Had to buy pkgs of 100, inexpensive. Be happy to send you a set or two if you mail me a stamped adressed envelope.
Ebb Borregaard
19310 Carriger Rd
Sonoma CA95476

[Rico]

Ebb,

Does this offer still stand? I forgot to remove the o-ring prior to stripping the shaft cover and not my o-ring is shot...

A~

[ebb]

I'll have to find them in my jumble. But I know I kept a few sets.

Let's make sure that you only need the O-rings.
Bill, got most of them from me when he got the cache of sleeve bearings made for the Association. I'm almost certain that the bearing is offered at cost to members. And just as certain the inside and outside O-rings come with it.

If you still have an old sleeve bearing in the rudder tube, there isn't a single argument against installing a slick new one that I can think of.

If you are sure you just need the O-ring(s) of course I'll see if I can locate them. Offer stands.:D
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______
Top of rudder tube repair idea.
If I remember correct, the chromed cap is held on to the top of the rudder tube with set screws - and the top of the tube in 338 had a ragged history of failures of screws failing to hold. One of the problems of driving metal into fiberglass.
To make the top of the tube under the cap like new again you can take the new sleeve bearing WITHOUT the O-rings in place and push it into the tube with a few layers of seranwrap gathered over the bearing. Plug it in wrapped in enough layers of film so it is snug. Then mix up a putty of epoxy, milled glass powder and fumed silica to smooth over the damage and remake the top of the tube.
The plastic wrapped bearing is completely protected and should make a nice form to work the epoxy against and keep the inside of the tube smooth if holes go through. When the epoxy is hard, the sleeve pulls out (you have a ponytail of seranwrap) and the plastic peels off like magic.
When ready to put the cap back on, mark the set-screw holes thru the cap with the cap in place using an awl (or 1/8" Vix bit) and then predrill a set-screw sized hole in the rudder tube for the screws to mate with. The cap is supposed to stay on when you screw them in. The holes should not go through the rudder tube, and should probably be less than an 1/8" deep. Careful!

Then you have to remember next time that the set screws are there. Could get slightly longer ones that poke out a bit so you don't miss them. Should use stainless steel screws with Tef-gel.
imco as always:D
__________________________________________________ _________________________________________________
Rico, I found the box. I saved two sets of O-rings for the boat. Maybe Bill will let a set go to you?
Also found the chromed cap and see that it has three set screws on its circumference. My rudder tube top has been repaired and I would go with the 1/4" size s.s screws 1/4" long. 5/16s would be better if available - the cap is not very thick (3/32") so we'll probably be sticking out just to make sure they have some thread. Somewhere around here I mentioned that you can find set-screws with heads. They would prevent over screwing into the softer fiberglass of the tube that the headless variety is guilty of. Maybe there is a nice 1/4" short stainless round-head machine-screw that would look good there? 3 of them.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______
LATER POST ADDITION:
I'll finish the loop here. WM is not your source for fastenings, as you know. Their catalog lists no machine 316L screws or m. bronze screws (they do have 1/4" set screws). Neither does Hamilton. And it looks like Jamestown is following the crowd. (Jamestown makes a big deal of saying that 304 stainless is marine fastening metal. This is a blatant untruth. A three letter word. WM offering only 18-8* fastenings is the same thing They are NOT marine quality. Neither WM or the screws. You might like rust, so go for it.
I've decided to have shortened round-head machine screws intead of set screws. Set screws often have pointy noses and I like the idea of a flat bottom in a tight fitting hole - less possibility of the cap loosening up imco.
Set screws are tiny and get lost. Headed fastenings are not as neat but I won't be able to turn them in too far - and if one falls out I'll probably see it!
Or feel it!

BoltDepot.com does have silicon bronze round head machine screws in 1/4-20.
You can buy them by the piece. The shortest is 1/2". You might think about including a split washer just in case the thread-lock doesn't hold.

A way to get the exact length needed.
Could drill a hole in some thin metal plate, insert the screw and cinch it up with a regular steel nut and washers - or not - for spacers. Then grind the screw down to the nut - hopefully the length we want - with the right-angle grinder. The length of the round-head machine set-screw is a total of what you have buried in the rudder tube - plus the cap thickness - plus the split washer - it'll probably take a few fittings - start long! I'll soften that part of the threads that are run into the fiberglass tube, like with a small file, less possible cutting of the plastic by the threads. I like bronze because it is a softer fastening and matches the cap material. And it's real salty.
Yup, Basta, good luck.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________________________
*18-8 is a 'bag' term. It is meant to cover the 300 series of stainless which might include 316 but also includes non-marine alloy WM is walmarting China for their stock. There are no controls over alloy formulations or practices or sources in China. You should read the invective they have garnered on some cruising forum sites over bad shackles from WM. I won't buy from them on principle. They are not looking out for me.

[Rico]

Ebb,

Sorry for the delayed response; I've been on the 'road'. (job keeps getting in the way!)

I have a brand new bearing (one I got from the association - via the PO)

The O-ring I need is the one pictured. The one that fits inside the shaft cover (cap)... This o-ring is not one that is supplied with the Bearing, is it?

...well, this is the one I accidentally destroyed, and that I am trying to locate so-far unsuccessfully.

I only have the broken old one, so my search has been limited to trial & error matching as I do not have specs, or a reliable way to measure the battered one... Do you happen to have the specs for it?

If anyone is in need of one, I do have an extra chrome shaft cover I've secured... (as pictured).

[ebb]

rico,
The inside O-ring IMCO is 1/8" diameter, 1 1/4" OD, 1" ID. Has to be an easy to get size. It is Dash #214 in the O-ring code. Bill has this size, I believe.

I never completely figured out which rubber was best. The inside ring does all the work and probably would need to be replaced on a regular basis. I believe the most common O-rings are EPDM, followed by Buna-N (usually automotive), neoprene and polyurethane. Probably what's cheapest is most popular. The inside diameter of the O-ring is 1". The shaft is 1" The groove in the bearing is slightly shy of 1/8" deep. This makes the O-ring bump out a bit. And the rings are as hard as the heel on your wingtips. Shore A70. It'll be a tight fit. A softer one (Buna-N) might be easier to slip onto the shaft, but it'll probably wearout sooner.

With the rudder shaft constantly turning against the O-ring. Pulling at it - I'd guess a tear resistant rubber is best. Don't believe EPDM is as good at that as maybe polyurethane, which may be more slippery. And some rubber is good at keeping its shape.

I think there is an O-ring grade for working rings like the inside one and those that just sit passive providing a seal. I forget which ones we got. It possible that the ideal set up would have a different O-ring for the inside.

Certainly think that keeping salt from crusting in the bearing and a little squirt of grease now and again would make the sleeve bearing rings happy. A 4oz barium base O-ring lube from McMCarr, $4.83. I would use an aerosol to try to shoot lube in, but have to watch that whatever is in the bomb is compatible with synthetic rubbers. NO silicone!

O-rings are cheap, unless you decide you have to have Viton or FEP. One of which might actually be the longer lasting for our application. McMasterCarr can sell you bags of them - some cheap some pricey. If you plan to regularly changeout the inside O-ring you'll need a dental pick to lift it out of the groove. Most hardwares have a pack of 4 different tips available.

Ask Bill to mail you the smaller ring. He must have plenty. You may have to email him on the Board here.

[ebb]

Wouldn't it be great if anybody who got a new bearing

would report back on how it is doing vis-a-vis the O-rings?


With feed back, the Association could tailor the O'rings to the job
they should be doing.

If anybody has replaced an O-ring already on a new bearing because it has lost its set, flattened, or wore out,
I'd be the one to take responsibility for that by making sure a better O-ring is available through the Association. Like to get it absolutely right. Want to know what you replaced it with and how that is working out?

So everybody who got the new delrin bearing

sign-in here and share what you think. YES?

[Bill]

Since the originals lasted up to 40 years . . . it may be a bit of a wait to get reports back . . . ;)

[Rico]

EBB,

From your reply;
"The inside O-ring IMCO is 1/8" diameter, 1 1/4" OD, 1" ID. Has to be an easy to get size. It is Dash #214 in the O-ring code. Bill has this size, I believe."

The O-ring I am looking for is the one pictured on the rightmost picture. The one that is INSIDE the shaft cover (Cap). It rests on a ridge close to the top of the cap. This is about 2" in diameter as it fits around the inside of the cap itself... This is different than the two that are related to the bearing itself. Would you have specs for that one?


Here is my experience with th bearing so far:

I replaced the original (where the shaft had worn ALMOST all the way through the bearing itself - let alone the O-ring...) and it has been wonderful in terms of improving the solid feel of the tiller / rudder. The play of the shaft inside the tube is completely eliminated. It analogous to getting a brand new suspension system on your old car... The bank for the buck in terms of feel ia hard to beat for this little part. If you do not have one of these in place you MUST get one from Bill tomorrow.

After two years of use on the new one, I observed very little wear on the o-rings. None on the bearing. I keep all coated with a light layer of grease, and all works great.

I took it all apart as I did not want to get any gelcoat on it, and managed to accidentally destroy the o-ring inside the shaft cover... hence my need to get a new one.

[Bill]

The last time the cap was off the shaft on #76, I don't recall there being an O ring. Not sure of the purpose it might serve in that location, but if it was me,I'd take the cap to the plumbing dept of the local hardware stare, locate the O ring box and pick one that fits . . :D

[ebb]

Agree with Bill, rico,
The 338 cap is as smooth inside as low grade corrosion can be. No flanges or grooves, which is not to say the Pearson or a DFO didn't have something else there. The only added rubber COULD be a washer put on the inside of the cap where it sits on the bearing. Don't think it necessary unless you are using the washer to change the position of the cap for the setscrews because the fiberglass tube is messed up where they go. In other words, you could use a washer to lift the cap so it rides higher and exposes unviolated rudder tube to drill into with the setscrews.

The cap is not tight on the bearing. It should allow a bit of drainage for any water that gets in there.

Rico, thanks for the photo of the cap. It's great to have something to see when talking about it. Looking inside I can only imagine a ledge as you say. Just what exactly was in there??? That blue disk??? It might have been someone's attempt at snugging the cap, that stuck around for you to find? Imco it's better that what water gets in gets out quick.

Good to know the new bearing and O-rings work well.
EPDM* (on some re-research) does best for the price and application, so that must be what Bill supplies with the bearing.
Viton, which is expensive, and whose usual ap is for fuel, has better 'compression set' rating and may last longer in the inside 'dynamic' ap in the sleeve bearing. Don't quote me.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __
I see by reading this whole thread that Ebb originally got NEOPRENE O-rings! After two years on rico's bateau they still working great. BUT
I am going to reorder the rings and get EPDM which has a much better rating in the weathering/ozone department (we are exterior ap on the boat) - also in the compressionset department - and in the wear/abrasion dept. Neoprene has a 'poor' rating in compression set. That means it will get flat and stay flat and eventually sea water will shoot up into the cockpit again and the rudder shaft will loosen. SO.....


I RECOMMEND THAT YOU CHANGE-OUT THE O-RINGS THAT CAME WITH YOUR NEW DELRIN BEARING FOR THE EPDM RINGS.....


I'll take it upon myself to mail to any member of the Association a set of EPDM O-rings for their delrin bearing.
Let's use the Private Message option here on the site.


First, have to order them. Today (12/6/07)

Then, ask Bill if it's alright with him that this is the way to do it.
Bill, is this OK with you?
(Original O-ring sacks may have material designations, will you look?
Can't believe I went with neoprene!!!)

[Bill]

Then, ask Bill if it's alright with him that this is the way to do it. Bill, is this OK with you? (Original O-ring sacks may have material designations, will you look? Can't believe I went with neoprene!!!)

No problem, Ebb. Go for it. Once you've supplied the members, we'll gladly accept the remaining O-rings for inclusion with the new bearings. ;)

I'll check the plastic bags to see if there are any product codes and let you know by E-mail.

[ebb]

OK BILL,
Thanks.

I've looked a little more into this rubber thing. There are too many variables to make a good call on what has the best tear/abrasion resistance of medium-hard O-ring elastomers. The silicones are the ones to stay away from.
All the others: Buna-Nitrile, Neoprene, EPDM are in the mid range of acceptability for dynamic and static sealing. With Buna-N and Nitrile rating slightly better than EPDM. But EPDM has a better overall score imco. Keeping the bearing greased is probably a good thing BUT

none of these O-Rings (except Viton) are rated for oil/hydrocarbon use. Use no petroleum products in the top of your rudder shaft. Since silicone can contaminate gelcoat surfaces, I won't have silicone lube aboard the boat imco. Often touted as a petroleum 'alternative.' Personally I would recommend lanoline. It may be available in a more liquid form for easier application in the bearing. Forespar maybe. Lanoline has a rep of keeping water OUT of things.

I guess Bill can offer both sets if you wish, so you have to make the choice, but then with two sets you'll have backup too. Be a couple of weeks befor this settles out. Thanks.:)

[mbd]

OK, is this a rudder bearing? It goes over the top of and around the rudder shaft and inside the fiberglass tube. Oh, and under the tiller cap. (At least that's where this piece came from when I broke it.) :o

Is this a new one or an original?

I'll be ordering a new one Bill. Can I sent the payment with my annual donation? Is Gene Roberts still the go to guy with both?

----------------------------------------------
PS. I don't have an O-ring inside my tiller cap like Rico's in post #10 either. It just sits over the top of the fiberglass tube and is secured with set the screws.

[Bill]

OK, is this a rudder bearing? . . . Is this a new one or an original?

I'll be ordering a new one Bill. Can I sent the payment with my annual donation? Is Gene Roberts still the go to guy with both?

Yes, that's the rudder shaft bearing, but I don't think its a "new" one. And yes, Gene is still the person for dues and mailing out the bearings.

[ebb]

Lanocote is lanoline. Lanolin is sheepwool grease. It is non-toxic, non-standardoil, non-dupont, what more do you want? It's also versatile:
It lubes seacocks and ballvalves
-turnbuckles and shackles
-waterproofs electrical stuff
-battery terminals
-stops galvanization (isolates s.s from aluminum)
-stops corrosion on stuff that's rusting
-lubes hinges and other working metals
-lubes & protects OB mechanisms
-lubes sleevebearings and EPDM O-Rings
-coat threads, splines, pins, shafts, bushings
-preserves metal, plastic, rubber hose
-effective drilling compound
-soothes cracks in your heels*
-lubes sailcloth needles and fids
-holds back rust on your chain and anchor
-great leather preservative (shoe polish)
-put a film of it on metal tools (spray it on,
wipe off all you can, leaves a film)
-mount your prop with it and it'll
pull right off next time.
-Some have tried it ON
their props - with mixed success
-Spray-on is a great gun lube and preservative.
and dozens of other uses.

It's a tough moisture barrier
AND a soft non-oil non-silicone lube.
Non-toxic, non-carcinogenic, anti-bacterial.
(This may not be true for the carriers in the spray & aerosol forms.)
Comes in a 4oz jar as a sticky gel like grease
also in a 7oz aerosol
and a weird little 8oz spray bottle with an large squirtgun head.
Doesn't cost much: 7,8, $10, like that.
The grease will last longer in use than the thinner stuff.
Don't use it too thick overhead (mast), heat will melt it
and it will drop on your deck. Soap and water cleanup.
Available as a thick grease from the pharmacy. Always get ANHYDROUS.

Anhydrous lanolin has a unique smell, may take some getting used to for some.
It's the yellow oil secreted by the skin of sheep. When the sheep are sheared
in the spring the oil is separated from the wool. Nobody died directly from this process.
They have managed to give the product Lanocote a nice smokey almost petro smell - I guess so that we'll feel more comfortable using it.



This is just info - not advocating a brand - there must be others - almost all Aussie. Imports? You have to agree it IS a special product. And most curious that megatech Forespar has it in its catalog. Has to be a shift in attitude toward an environmentally friendly product. Industry has not found a way to synthetically duplicate lanolin.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
*Anhydrous lanolin is a water barrier, but supposedly when you mix it with oliveoil it will absorb into cracked feet and chapped hands.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________________________
Check out the next boatshow for Aussie PROLAN and THERMOBOAT booths!
And remember, lanolin has been around a lot longer than Boshield T9 (petro-junkies love this product).

[mbd]

Got my new rudder bearing - here it is. Thanks Bill/Gene!

[CupOTea]

I'm all set to put my new rudder bearing in BUT - I can only get two of the set screws out.of the chrome cap and so can't remove it. The third one is facing almost due aft and is pretty stripped by PO I guess. Can't get around there with an Allen or hex or anything else to get it out. Anyone else run into this and tackled it?:confused:

[bill@ariel231]

I worked mine free with a strap wrench. The offending set screw has since been replaced. ;)

[CupOTea]

Great Bill - thanks. What's behind that screw - the old bearing? fiberglass? the shaft? I'm thinking to whatever damage I might do in the process.

[bill@ariel231]

If your cap is like mine, the set screw bears on a fiberglass tube. be gentle, it will come off without scaring the tube

[CupOTea]

Great - can't wait to give it a try. Love to see your yacht sometime - I'm in Naragansett every summer at least once. Thanks, Scott