Prospective Boat Buyers Info-tech ?'s

[mrgnstrn]

Hello all, i have a random collection of tech. ?'s about Ariel #3 that i am pondering buying. here goes:

1. Rudder: looked loose from its shaft. the bottom plate/shoe looked pretty tight, and solid, but the shaft and the bottom of the actual rudder surface looked not too tight. how are the two held together? the straps that support the shaft in the middle looked good and tight, i just worry that someday i might go to tack and loose the rudder control surface and be left with a naked rudder shaft. ideas.

2. more Rudder: this boat has been out of water for years, and there was (as the general populous predicted) a seam that formed where the two boards had shrunk. this doesn't seem to be a problem, but the insert that fills in where there would be a prop (no inboard engine on this one) seems half-assed. a simple strap with two nails in the main surface and two in the insert, and then i assume some epoxy around. anyone with experience here?

3. Starboard, lip of topsides: along the starboard side for a few feet, where the topside (walking surface) rounds upward to form the lip on the extreme edge of the topside (before turning 180 degrees to meet up with the hull/shell) there is a crack on the inside. the current owner had the topsides redone, so no evidence there, but from the inside you can see a crack. and there is some crap oozing out. was the core originally balsa, foam or plywood? i think i have seen pictures on the web somewhere, where somebody cut a gigantic area out, removed (and saved) the top fiberglass layer, removed and replaced all the old core, and reattached the top layer. for me i would have to stop at the removing the core part and fix/glass up the inner glass layer, then replace the core. where do i find more info, and again balsa, foam or plywood to replace?

4. drains: does anybody have experience at replacing the original drains with seacocks? what does that entail? how much of the hull am i going to have to cut out? are replacements easy?

well that's it for now, thanks to all in advance!

-km

[Bill]

You will find answers to many of your questions by reading some of the history. Just go to the bottom of the Technicle forum and change the display to "since the beginning" from the default "30 days." Remember, the posts are displayed in groups of 20, so click the next page number when you reach the bottom of each page.

[commanderpete]

There is not too much that holds the rudder shaft to the boat. As long as the straps are good, the rudder shaft is not going to seperate from the boat.

Any play in the shaft is tightened up at the top or the rudder shoe, which is discussed elsewhere.

The insert for the apeture does nothing but fill space.

This is my rudder after I sanded much of the paint off.

[commanderpete]

The rudder looks kinda dark because I had coated it with epoxy a few years ago. I now think that wasn't a great idea.

This is a picture of an ariel where the rudder was completely covered with fiberglass. I think it would be very difficult to make and keep the rudder waterproof.

[commanderpete]

I think the general consensus is that you should leave the rudder alone. It may look ugly, but its not going anywhere.

You can tighten up the slop (play) in the rudder if it bothers you.

About the crack at the starboard side. The deck is cored, but the coring tapers off towards the edge. When you get near the "lip" (toerail) it becomes solid fiberglass.

When you say stuff is oozing out underneath, is that fresh liquid or dried goop from a previous repair?

On the drains, which ones were you thinking about?

No sense putting seacocks on the cockpit drains because you're never going to close them.

[ebb]

Number 3. WOW!

[mrgnstrn]

ebb - that is exactly what i thought!

Cdrpete - on the blue rudder pic, did the straps work well? or did they fight the wood's expansion contraction adversly?

- on the red rudder, would it be difficult to glass because keeping it dry makes it open up and the glass would be constantly fighting that situation? because you don't want to glass it wet (!).

and what i am really worried about is that the lower shaft and rudder don't appear attached by anything. the upper shaft looks pretty solidly attached, but the lower shaft is separating from the control surface. but the shaft is going nowhere, the straps to the hull are good and the shoe/bracket at the bottom is tight.

- oozing was the wrong word. maybe extruded is more correct. it wasn't liquid or gooey, but it was kind like coarse sawdust mixed with rubber cement. but not super-elastic like rubber cement. would this be rotten balsa coming through the crack (visable crack, but hard to tell how wide the crack is).

- i work for the navy designing subarines. every single pipe into a sub has a hull and backup valve (2 valves). now, i don't ever plan on going to periscope depth in mine, but being able to shut the valve when the hose springs a leak appeals to me. i still have to do the cost/benefit on this one.

you guys are awesome with the answers, and i only looked at this boat yesterday. now to find a marine surveyor, etc etc etc.
thanks to all,
km #3

[commanderpete]

I should probably let someone who knows more about rudders chime in here.

I'm not sure if the bronze plates you see on my blue rudder were original or added later.

On the red rudder, I just think that water is going to find its way underneath the fiberglass. The wood will swell, the fiberglass will crack, more water will get in, etc., etc.

On the starboard crack, it seems that somebody did a repair of some sort. You said that the topside had been re-done in that area (painted?). If the boat has been sailed for awhile after the repair, and no crack has appeared on the topside through the paint, it looks like the repair was successful. If there was movement, I would think there would be a corresponding crack(s) on the topside.

I'm sure we would all like to see some pictures of #3 if you can swing it.

[commanderpete]

This is a page from Dave Bogle's homepage showing his rudder. He has a 1965 Commander like mine.

http://www.bway.net/~bogle/rudder.html

With these boats, you are going to see alot of variation from one boat to another in alot of things. They weren't really mass produced.

[Mike Goodwin]

Bad balsa core looks like and has the texture of cheap canned tuna in water .
I re-cored #45 last summer , somewhere there are photos posted of the job .

[Mike Goodwin]

If you scroll down on this thread ;

http://www.pearsonariel.org/discussion/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43

You will see photos of my old and new deck core , had to do the whole stbd side .

Mike G

[commanderpete]

Just guessing here, but maybe a prior owner has already done the deck repair. Maybe he cut too far through the deck from the top and the epoxy leaked down. Some people also do the repair by cutting off the bottom skin from underneath.

The important thing is-----Is the deck stiff? Does it feel soft or springy when you walk/jump on it. Sometimes you feel more if you walk on it barefoot.

Back on the rudder. The Manual indicates that the rudder is held to the shaft by large bolts and screws that pass right through the shaft and into the wood. Trying to replace them doesn't sound too easy. Maybe there is an easier way.

Keep in mind, though, that this is a 40 year old boat. Buying this boat would not be an entirely rational decision. It helps to be a little nuts. Labor of love, and all that.

[mrgnstrn]

great photos mike!

quick question, what is the max size that can easily come up at once? i am imagining that there may be spots where the balsa is still hanging on tight and would hate to break the top layer trying to get to it off. i also imagine that too small of a piece and alignment might be a problem.

also, the series of holes that were drilled, what were they for?

well, i am looking into wescore and nida-core. i briefly talked to a marine surveyor about delam and cores and he mentioned knomex (sp?) and some other type that was honeycomb with a fiber layer on bothsides; not wetted, but bonded to the honeycomb. which eases install because there is a layer of fiber to adhere the next to. anyone know the brand/product name?

thanks again to all,
km #3

[Bill]

For a good discussion of repairing delmating decks on an Ariel, go to Bill Sandifer's article in Good Old Boat:

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/delalimation.htm

Or, if you can find a copy, take a look at the Nov/Dec 1998 edition of Good Old Boat.

[Mike Goodwin]

I see you are on the Potomac , I'm down in Portsmouth , about 3 hrs south of you .
The holes were a bad repair by a previous owner ,
when the core is wet , it wont work .
Some of the pieces I pulled up were very large 2x3' or larger .
Any core will work , even balsa can go back in . Balsa has been given a bad rap due to negligent owners not poor materials or construction . You know , the folks who think fiberglass boats are matainence free and teak is supposed to be grey and dried out .

[glissando]

KM,

From your description of what the surveyor told you, I think he's talking about Nidacore, in which the honeycomb is bonded to mat on each side from the factory. A true honeycomb core product is more difficult to install properly because of the small bonding surface; the mat layers on the Nidacore are designed with this in mind, and are already well bonded to the honeycomb of the core. The mat, when wetted out with unthickened epoxy first, will then bond very effectively with the thick epoxy putty you use to resecure the deck panels and core in place.

Nomex is a foam product and is often used in one-off construction. I would stay away from higher-tech foams and use either Nidacore or balsa in a recore job. Many of the foam products can develop serious problems down the road, especially in high heat conditions or the combination of moisture and heat. I don't know anything about Wescore and don't intend to randomly include it in the above broad statement.

Nidacore is relatively new and has not therefore been tested over the long haul in actual user conditions. It seems like a good product that should hold up well, but only time will tell for sure. I think I would/will use it next time I do a project boat. I'm not sure how Nidacore stands up pricewise against balsa--balsa is fairly inexpensive. It also makes a nice core if you install it right and keep the water out. Don't be scared off of balsa, necessarily. Lessons learned from the industry's last 40 years of core construction techniques will help ensure that even a balsa core can be installed securely and will remain dry--as long as the deck penetrations are maintained, or, better yet, done properly in the first place.

Tim

[D. Fox]

I looked at this boat last year before I bought my B27. She looked real nice and had some good improvements - new paint, new roller furler, new outboard. I couldn't get past the deck core problems. She also has no stanchions, and the genoa was stolen off the furler a couple years ago. Still, if you're willing to do some work, I think she could be a great buy. When I looked at her, they were asking $5K, and I really think I could've gotten her for four; you might be able to get her for even less now. She hasn't touched water in 6 years.

I took several photos of this boat when I looked at her. Here's one showing the nice paint (daughter in foreground). I have several others, including a close of up the deck problem, if anyone's interested.

Dan

Edit - just deleted this photo as it had their registration number. Not sure if that really matters, but don't want to run afoul of somebody's lawyer somewhere.

[D. Fox]

Just noticed on rereading my post that it may be unclear - the boat I'm talking about, and the one pictured, is Hull #3. When I saw her, the decks were in very bad shape, but on rereading the posts here, sounds like they've had them redone. She definitely hasn't been back in the water as I've driven by several times this summer and she's stayed on the hard.

Dan

[mrgnstrn]

well, that is, in-fact, the exact boat i am looking at.
the topsides have a new-ish coat of paint and non-skid.
what i worry about is the they covered up any evidence with the fresh paint.

a few on the board here have asked me for pics.
maybe you can oblige since i have none.

she is currently asking $4k, and after teh surveyor tells me basically what i already know, we'll see.

-km

[Mike Goodwin]

Well , if they did the deck repair and glassed it back in with poly or epoxy , you must paint it or it will begin to degrade from the UV , especially epoxy .
Ask the owner or yard mgr. about the repairs , don't be shy !
How is it when you walk on the decks in the area of the suspected repairs ? If it feels solid dont worry about how it looks . Glass work doesn't have to be pretty to be strong .
$4K isn't bad depending on how it is equiped .
Offer them $2500 and see what happens .
How are the sails?
What kind of motor ?
Any electronics ?
Have the winches been upgraded?
How is the roller furling ?

[D. Fox]

Shot of the deck near the pulpit, taken Spring 2001. I guess the question is whether they actually repaired this or just dressed it up.

[D. Fox]

Oops. Here's the actual photo.

[D. Fox]

Another.

[D. Fox]

Another.

[D. Fox]

Last one.

[D. Fox]

mrgnstrn, I see you live in Alexandria and assume you work somewhere locally...I live in Reston and work in the building...would be happy to meet up to talk boats and sailing. Could use a hand sometime in the next couple weeks dealing with my topping lift problem if you're interested...let me know.

Dan

[D. Fox]

mrgnstrn, got your note and tried to reply but the character limit was too low to say what I wanted:

That movement doesn't really mean anything...boatyards move boats around to make space as they see fit. She's not in the same place as she was when I first saw her. They've probably shifted her a dozen times since she first went on the hard. If you look near the waterline on the starboard side, you'll find a place where the new paint is abraded - owner attributed that to moving the boat too soon after the paint job.

I'm really not trying to badmouth or otherwise dissuade you from this boat. I think she could be a great deal so long as you're willing to put in the work to fix the decks (if they weren't done correctly).

Feel free to email me direct at "foxbd@comcast.net"

Dan

[mrgnstrn]

well, thurday is the marine inspection, and we'll know after that.

yes, live in alex.VA, work in DC (@Navy Yard). used to live in herndon for a while, but too far from work.

dan, i am not sure what help i could be to you. my current boat (hobie cat 16) doesn't have a topping lift, but i am sure that it will be a learning experience for me.

thanks for the heads up on the starboard paint. over the last two weeks since i saw her, i have been building my list of points to look at, trying really hard not to let the *idea* of this boat get in the way of the *facts*.

thanks, and my email is:
mrgnstrn@hotmail
-km

[commanderpete]

Dan,

When were you going to tell km that you're planning to haul him up to the top of the mast to replace the topping lift? :eek:

[mrgnstrn]

riiiight...

dan, uumm, i think i have something to do the next few weekends. both days, all day.

:p

[D. Fox]

Oh, great...thanks Pete!! Now who am I going to get to go up there? It looks reeeallly high. Are you sure I can't change your mind? I'll buy you a Fresca!

[D. Fox]

So, how'd the survey of #3 come out? Enquiring minds want to know...

[mrgnstrn]

survey came out great!

he did suggest re-doing the bottom, from the gelcoat up.
and the coring, but that can come next out-haul, next offseason, or the next.

rudder actually looked a lot tighter this time around, either because it has been hella-humid and rainy around here, or because i had the wrong impression before on the rudder.

one item of note. forward potable water tank. mine was carbon steel. who's stupid-ass idea was that? monel, stainless, all fine choices; carbon steel, dumb. was that the way everyone else's is? i'm thinking about yanking it and repositioning it under the focsle and using it as a chain locker for the anchor. i guess gallon jugs of water will have to do until then.

but we (wife and puppy dog) decided to get it, so come sunday we will exchange the necessary papers and #3 will be mine... just in time to make the first monthly payment for the dryslip/block space.:p

of course we have to change the name of the boat. i know it's bad luck, but i promised my wife i would name it after her, and i KNOW not doing that is bad luck. anybody know any pro's at this in the Deale MD/ annapolis area? i'm sure there about a million pro's willing to do it, anybody have someone they trust?

-km
#3
currently "Ariel Spirit",
formerly "Glass Doll",
soon to be "Finchie"

[Bill]

The first of the two happiest days in the life of a sailor! :p Looking forward to getting #3 registered. BTW - there is a section on water tank removal in the manual. Pearson, following wooden boat protocol, used galvanized tankage until the higher numbered boats.

The water tank in our boat (#76) has been unusable since the 1970's. :( Because of #338's complete refit, however, this is changing. Ebb is not using the original Monel water tank and graciously sold it to me (out of pity, I suppose). :p

[D. Fox]

Glad to hear the survey came out so well. So, I take it the surveyor said the decks were properly repaired? Maybe you could get her in the water and enter her in the GOB regatta on 5 and 11 Oct...?

What do you mean by a "pro" at name changing? Are you looking for a graphics outfit? If so, I know a place that'll do a great job on vinyl graphics for a good price. Did mine...I can send photos if you're interested.

Dan

[D. Fox]

PS - I guess this means you have something better to do than occupy my bosuns chair for the topping lift job on Sunday?

[Mike Goodwin]

Glad you decided to get her !
If you sail down the Bay let me know and we can get Ariel #45 & Commander #105 together for some group photos and a cookout . It's only 160 miles by water to Norfolk .

[MarkCreeker]

I'm planning on renaming Commander #202. Found a ceremony that may be silly, but when I'm at Neptune's mercy, I want to have everything going for me that I can!

http://www.boatus.com/goodoldboat/naming.htm

[mrgnstrn]

i am sorry to say that i am planning on keeping her on the blocks until next april. after all she has been out of water for about 11 years. it would take a week just to swell the rudder up nice and tight. and i have yet to rummage through my huge box of various ropes, lines and sheets to see if there is a coherent set of anything, or if i should buy stock in Yale Cordage Inc, or something.

but next spring, she will be tied up and in the water, so after my first few shakedown cruises, we might be ready.

and by "pro" i mean anyone i will have to pay, as to distiguish them from the many DIY'ers on the board (don't worry, i am one too.;) ) i just want the lettering to look superb. Dan, did that place sand off the old name and re-apply, or just send you a glorified sticker with your new name?

thanks to all, and is there anybody else not using their monel tank? would i be able to scavenge this from another pearson? (not an ariel, an electra)

-out
-km#3